"Hermann" <hr_he...@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:D7PSc.100682$dP1.firstname.lastname@example.org...
> > Please. You are having a major problem with paying attention to theI did not discuss "wounding a muscle". I discussed SEVERING a muscle -
> > discussion around you. We were discussing the weapon passing the
> > the *armor*. I don't give a rat's arse about whether or not you sever
> > too - if your blade has cut that deeply, the limb is *done*.
> I am perfectly aware that you don't care about severing/crushing bones,
which is what tends to happen if you pass a cutting plane perpendicular to a
limb. When the majority of a bicep, deltoid, tricep, etc. is disconnected,
the limb is no longer useful for fighting and killing.
> > WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT FORCE MARCHING. Jesus fucking christ!There you go again, assuming that the tired soldier would just wave his
> I was talking about real combat situations, where exhausted soldiers are
weapon feebly at his enemy. If you are so weak that you literally can't
swing your weapon to any effect, why are you still there? Why *bother*? Die,
run, or surrender - there's no way you're going to win.
> > Why on earth would you, a tired fighter, expend your<sigh>
> > energy on attacks with no chance to succeed?
> Try panic and desperation, for instance.
There is nothing useful to be learned from this magical subset of
force-marched, panicked, and desperate "professional soldiers" who forget
all the lessons of warfare they've trained in and can't move their weapons.
Congratulations - armor stops their attacks, and they die.
> > Medeival weapons use momentum and leverage to do theirAnd it is your contention that these tired men are somehow more likely
> > work - they don't require the full measure of a man's might to be put to
> > work. They are, after al, *tools*...
> It has plenty to do with it. A tired man will not be able to hit as hard.
to break the armor, but "just barely", and do no serious harm in the
process, and that it is therefore important to be sure to be able to model
this "perfectly" tired man who can still *break steel* but exactly nothing
> > Please review a detailed history of Agincourt before speaking on itI feared you were about to repeat other mythologies on the matter. The
> I have, actually. Lots of it, too. Wikipedia has a fairly good summary,
mud was profoundly abusive to greaves and made crossing that field difficult
and time consuming - allowing everyone who wasn't in plate rigs to get
themselves feathered. This includes the cavalry - which Wiki gets right but
does not mention the buggering of the fighting ranks their retreat caused.
However, given that the knight's armor was ostensibly arrow-proof, they
needn't hurry across the field! The net effect of the narrowing passage and
the muddy interlude was that the heavy infantry elements arrived to meet the
English *in disorder* (and not en masse) - which allows mobbing tactics
which ordinarily wouldn't have been available, given their relative numbers.
Further, the French had to fight uphill to reach the English, and thus when
the archers famously joined their men at arms with mallets, the potential
for mayhem was nontrivial.
However, suggesting that the French were "too tired to swing their
swords" or what not would be profoundly silly.
So is wiki's assertion that shortswords and knives were the weapons that
defeated the French armor - those only do for coups on clobbered men (ie; ma
llet, topple, pounce, shiv the eye).
> > The man who is not weighed down will have the upper hand against aAll right. Let's just make sure you said what you think you said. In a
> > slam? He will have the upper hand against a 60-pounds heavier body that
> > pinions him thereafter? He will have the upper hand against the man
> > *metal gauntlets* when he grabs him with one and begins pummeling?
> Yes. And why would metal gauntlets have any effect on grabbing?
contest of fisticuffs, where one individual *cannot* pummel his opponent
successfully due to a carapace of steel, and the other has mailed fists ...
you are claiming that the unarmored individual has the advantage?
You are beginning to trouble me with your foolish notions.
> But remember that the armours where this might have been possible wereBut *we are not talking about those armors*.
> produced at the pinnacle of combat, metallurgy and smithing techniques,
> placing them more in the renaissance than the middle ages. During the high
> middle ages (around 1200 AD), plate hadn't even been introduced.
Chainmail and reinforced chainmail are compromise armor in every
> > Further, civilian nobles who wear their armorDepends on the time and the place.
> > once a year find it much more difficult to employ it - again, many
> > misjudge the nature of armor based on those experiences.
> And who made up the bulk of the knights? Civilian nobles or a standing
> > Nothing about a kevlar jacket stops a man from getting up off thePlease. Stop being silly in public.
> > ground.
> No, given that noone is there to stop him. The extra 10 pounds of weight
> > > But then again, squires didn't fight battles, did they? I wouldNon sequitur.
> > > that their physical state deteriorated quite quickly.
> > Stop imagining things about which you have no knowledge.
> Then please enlighten me at which battles squires clad in full armour
> > > > <sigh> PROPER ARMOR PIERCING DEVICE. Ie; optimized shapes.The pike's penetration benefits from running the knight into the thing
> > > Rephrase: is the penetration of an object of similar shape and force
> > <sigh> You just aren't hearing me.
> I am. A raven's beak and a pike were both using optimized shapes, yet the
on the back of a horse.
> Even if a weapon penetrated the armour, some friction would remain.Yes. Some. Not enough to make a difference in killing wounds, presuming
you tipped your weapon sensibly. During impact, once you are tearing the
metal, the work to advance the weapon is essentially constant (b/c of the
stress concentration effect of the tips of the tears).
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