Best current RPG? (it's been a while)
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord
Marcus Reid wrote:
>
> It's been a while since my last RPG (World of XEEN) and it's about time
> for another one. What's the best current RPG? I like games that have
> a good amount of depth to them, ones with a real feel to them that makes
> you look back on them and wish for a sequel. TIA.
The Ultima series--particularly Ultima 7, Ultima 7 Part 2, and Ultima 8.
You can get the Complete Ultima 7 for about $10 in most stores, and
Ultima 8 for around the same price. Unfortunatley, there aren't really
any other CRPG's out there like World of Xeen (try Might and Magic III,
II, and--if you can stand the CGA graphics--even I) if you haven't.
There are two shareware games that are also very Might and
Magic-like--Yendor 2 and 3. Just do a search on the internet and you'll
find shareware versions. (If you can't find 'em, tell me and I'll give
you an HTTP address--I'm just too lazy to look one up now.) Also,
there's always the Wizardry series (mainly 6 and 7), though the
excessive combat has always bothered me more than a bit...
And if you don't mind trying a modern fantasy/horror action 3-d
adventure RPG, try Realms of Haunting--TERRIFIC game--I actually played
it to the end. ;)
....The High Toadlord
Justin A. Hussel
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord
Marcus Reid wrote:
>
> It's been a while since my last RPG (World of XEEN) and it's about time
> for another one. What's the best current RPG? I like games that have
> a good amount of depth to them, ones with a real feel to them that makes
> you look back on them and wish for a sequel. TIA.
The Ultima series--particularly Ultima 7, Ultima 7 Part 2, and Ultima 8.
(they're not exactly current, but they're current enough to be better
than anything out now) You can get the Complete Ultima 7 for about $10
~Scarlet~
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord wrote:
>
> Marcus Reid wrote:
> >
> > It's been a while since my last RPG (World of XEEN) and it's about time
> > for another one. What's the best current RPG? I like games that have
> > a good amount of depth to them, ones with a real feel to them that makes
> > you look back on them and wish for a sequel. TIA.
>
DIABLO...it is the best RPG...You can download a "try before you buy" at
http://www.blizzard.com!!
Ben Flieger
~Scarlet~ <ga...@onramp.net> wrote in article <3406D6...@onramp.net>...
I quote from the March 1997 PC Games(this quote is from Richard
Garriot):"...I believe Diablo and Unreal-which aren't fantasy role-playing
games-...." Is that piece of Blizzard tripe(I fail to see why anyone likes
ANY Blizzard game, they all suck) a RPG?? Hmmmm.
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord
Just like the emphasize the well-known fact: Diablo may have great
graphics, music, and sound--and it may be fun for *a while*--BUT BY THE
GODS, IT IS *NOT* AN RPG!!!
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord
swanlee wrote:
> graphics,music,sound and is fun.
Excuse me, but I and other vetran RPG'ers do. Diablo is fun--for a very
short while. After that, it grows old, pointless, boring, and generally
stinky. It does NOT offer a role-playing experience, so people looking
for role-playing games shouldn't expect to find one in Diablo!!!
Michael Lewchuk
My vote for best RPG at this point in time would go to the Exile series.
Good tile-based graphics, HUGE world, plenty of NPCs to "talk to", sort of
like a much larger Utlima 4 with better graphics, actual plots and subplots,
independently playable dungeons (okay, so most of them are a bit linear
because you can't expect to survive a high-level dungeon with low-level
characters), stats-based truly customizable characters, great *reasonable*
quests, and so on. It'll be the best I've played in awhile, and probably will
be until I see how BiA, RtK, Ultima 9, M&M 6, Wiz 8, and others compare.
Michael Lewchuk
lew...@cs.UAlberta.CA
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord
swanlee wrote:
>
> On Sun, 31 Aug 1997 11:04:59 -0400, "Justin A. Hussel, The High
> have been playin since the mid 80s. If it were up to alot of you
> uptight overbearing "veteran rpg's" their would be no such thing as a
> true role playing game cause none of them would fit all the little
> million sub catagories you picky bastards would consider a true rpg to
> be. It was a fun game and thats the bottom line.
Oh, give me a fucking break--count one some asshole like you to turn a
discussion about games into a personal attack. My last word on the
subject: Diablo is a nice game for about a week--then it's SHIT. PURE
SHIT. It's about as much a RPG as Gauntlet (Guantlet's probably
actually funner...). Crawling through one big dungeon and hacking the
shit out of 86000 simultenously-attacking fire-ball breathing monsters
isn't an RPG. If I had realized how un-rpg-like it was, I probably
wouldn't have bought it--at least not until it had been out for a while
and the price had gone down!!! Ever heard of Strife? A game with the
doom-engine but conversation and RPG elements? It may not be a
traditional RPG, but as far as I'm concerned, it's still more of an RPG
than Diablo. Diablo's about the only thing I've ever seen come out that
claims to be an RPG but *ISN'T.*
Quit trying to tell everyone the game is 'fun and that's all that
matters' just because you feel that way--a lot of us out there don't!
You're entitled to your own fucking opinion, but not to [form one for]
everyone else! Some people prefer a good story, exploration, and
interaction to... "Oh, here comes another 25 daemons... Better pull out
my Fire Blast Bloody Death Staff..."
Ddd
Marcus Reid <mr...@rain.org> wrote in article
<5u5ppe$3p8$1...@news.rain.org>...
> It's been a while since my last RPG (World of XEEN) and it's about time
> for another one. What's the best current RPG? I like games that have
> a good amount of depth to them, ones with a real feel to them that makes
> you look back on them and wish for a sequel. TIA.
As others have mentioned, the Ultima 7 CD is probably the best RPG. Ultima
8, however, seems to be a game 3/4ths finished. Lots of players have had
problems with it. But, if you can get it in the cheap $10 bin, it might be
worth looking at. Then there's Ultima Online, but most players aren't
Role-Playing, so you'd probably want to avoid it.
Douglas Rener
On Sun, 31 Aug 1997 19:51:26 -0400, "Justin A. Hussel, The High
Toadlord" <hus...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> fucking SHIT. PURE SHIT shit fucking
Hey Toadlord,
I condensed your message for you.
You sound like a real retard.
L8ter
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jmo...@ix.netcom.com
Marcus Reid wrote:
>
> It's been a while since my last RPG (World of XEEN) and it's about time
> for another one. What's the best current RPG? I like games that have
> a good amount of depth to them, ones with a real feel to them that makes
> you look back on them and wish for a sequel. TIA.
Ok here's the skinny. Fist off Diablo is junk. I bought it on a
monday, Diablo was dead by thursday night, i returned it on Friday and
that was that. It's pretty, it sounds good but it's empty, it's not an
RPG. Ok now what you want to do is run down to a software store and
pick up the Complete Ultima 7 series. now we're talking hard core,
detailed rpg. It's a very high quality game. Go for it!! Have fun
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord
Ddd wrote:
>
> As others have mentioned, the Ultima 7 CD is probably the best RPG.
> Ultima
> 8, however, seems to be a game 3/4ths finished. Lots of players have
> had
> problems with it. But, if you can get it in the cheap $10 bin, it
> might be
> worth looking at. Then there's Ultima Online, but most players aren't
> Role-Playing, so you'd probably want to avoid it.
I definately agree--Ultima 7 and Ultima 7 Part 2 are my all-time
favorite CRPG's. I, however, actually enjoyed Ultima 8 ALMOST as much,
though I know most Ultima-fans didn't. Once I installed the patch that
fixed the jumping (made it so you could just point and click and you'd
automatically jump to the location without having to do the arcade
crap), I didn't experience any problems and ejoyed the game immensely--I
only wish the world of Pagan was larger (with more cities and NPC's).
It's definately the most visually and 'audio'lly attractive Ultima game.
Werner Arend
On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, ~Scarlet~ wrote:
> Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord wrote:
> >
> > Marcus Reid wrote:
> > >
> > > It's been a while since my last RPG (World of XEEN) and it's about time
> > > for another one. What's the best current RPG? I like games that have
> > > a good amount of depth to them, ones with a real feel to them that makes
> > > you look back on them and wish for a sequel. TIA.
> >
>
> DIABLO...it is the best RPG...You can download a "try before you buy" at
> http://www.blizzard.com!!
Maybe it's a good game - but it's not an RPG
Werner
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord
Rick Cortese wrote:
> >
> You seem to be a little confused about what a RPG is. A real RPG has
> only a
> setting & the thinest of plots. That is the WHOLE idea: You are the
> one
> that is supposed to develop the story through your game play.
> What has happened over the last 20 years is RPGs programmers have
> included
> a lot of story development in the storyline similar to an Adventure
> game.
I know that a role-playing game is. But when I'm talking about RPG's in
relation to a PC, I'm talking about CRPG's. I recognize the difference,
and in my view, there is a standard for CRPG's--the Ultima games, the
Wizardry games, Albion, etc. Technology simply isn't advanced enough at
this point to make a REAL RPG on a computer or console--I know that.
That's what Daggerfall tried to do--and (again in my opinion) it failed
miserably.
> A
> lot of experienced RPG players refer to this as 'cattle chute' & we
> hate
> this more then any nags you may have about Diablo. Just a matter of
> tastes,
> but I haven't played an Adventure game in 10 years, you probably like
> them.
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do enjoy adventure games [usually with a
fantasy theme]--though I love being able to create, control, and
build/develop a character as in most CRPG's, I also love a good story.
For me, a good story and story (& world detail) presentation is what
decides whether or not I really enjoy & remember a game. (Almost every
adventure game I've played--the Ultima, Might and Magic, AD&D Goldbox,
and Dark Sun games in particular as far as CRPG's are concerned.) Even
Meridian 59 and Ultima Online--which are certainly the closest thing to
a true RPGs existent on the computer--receive constant complaints from
people that there's not enough to do, isn't enough story, etc.
> You should really just go to any good game store & buy some pen &
> paper
> RPGs, other then laying out the cites & country side, you are pretty
> much
> on your own as far as what you do & where you go, who you talk to, &
> the
> conversations are all made up on the fly.
First of all, I spend a great deal of my free time DMing a PBEM
(play-by-email) RPG with over a dozen players, all adventuring on their
own in different parts of the world (my world, Samarian--a world I
created, a series I'm writing, and game system I designed.), so I don't
really have the time, desire, or need to seek out a paper RPG. I'm not
trying to be rude--I thank you for your suggestion--just stating the
facts and trying to say that I know what an RPG is.
But anyway, story is where our opinions differ. Regardless of what you
or anyone else calls a real RPG, I beleive ANY RPG--including a
pen-and-pencil AD&D RPG--*HAS* to have a good story to be truly fun and
successful. The role-playing is up to the player(s) (who are half--even
the center) of the complete story)--but he/she/they is/are supposed to
be role-playing a character living in an actual world with happenings,
history, stories, etc.--players can't role-play a world, they can only
role-play a character. When the DM designs the quests, stories,
etc.--even if on the spur of the moment--he's creating a story. Even
when the stories revolve around the backgrounds players create, quests
they decide to go on, etc., it's still up to the DM to design the
details of that story--the players can't have any fun if they have to
come up with everything that happens on their own! When you're playing
a CRPG, the creators, programmers, and writers are--in essence--the
DM(s). In my PBEM campaign, a significant part of the game (and largely
why my players enjoy and continue to play) is the vast and complicated
story/epic I designed, mixed in with the personal stories of each player
(based largely on their background), making each player in essence part
of an individual novel that eventually joins in with the 'main novel.'
My players have all the freedom they want, can do what they want, talk
to who they want, etc.--but without the story, there wouldn't be
anything to keep most of my players constantly interested and involved.
(I'm not trying to be arrogant and say my story's the best thing in the
world, just that I constantly receive out-of-campaign comments from
players telling me how addictive and involving the story makes the game
and how much they enjoy the story)
Even though I use the Wizardry games as a constant example of true
CRPG's, I don't necessarily enjoy them--at least not the first
3--because they focus on combat and dungeon-delving rather than story.
Wizardry 6 (as far as I know) is the first one with a good story.
Also, I prefer CRPG's simply because they're something that can
entertain me (with the welcome but not necessary addition of music,
graphics, etc--something you don't get with pen&pencil RPG's) when I
feel like playing a game without having to go out and get a group of
other role-players together and spend several hours on a long gaming
session.
So again, IMO, the BEST and IDEA RPG's--computer and pen&pencil & pbem
RPG's--combine a good story with character role-playing, freedom. A
role-playing game should be a huge or even never-ending novel where
you're the main character, a fully detailed world that you can 'live'
within. As far as CRPG's are concerned--I consider it a bonified CRPG if
it focusses on story, NPC interaction, exploration, and character
development. I would call Diablo a CRPG if the combat didn't get so
ridiculously action-based. Really, I'm actually hesitant to say that
it's not an RPG--and I really did enjoy it for a while--but I don't
beleive it's a good example of a really good RPG, but rather an Action
RPG. *Technically*, by the very definition of the term role-playing,
any game where you take on the role of another character is a form of
role-playing--even (though I cringe to say it) something like
Duke-Nukem. So in essence, ever PC and console game you play is a
role-playing game of some sort, though there's of course a standard for
CRPG's set by the Ultima and Wizardry series in the 1980's.
> I feel people who complain
> there
> is no such thing as a real RPG on a computer to be more accurate then
> yours.
You're entitled to your opinion--I just don't happen to agree with it.
If people wanna think Diablo is the best RPG of all time that's fine
with me--but when someone asks 'what's the best current CRPG out?' and
someone answers Diablo, I feel almost offended (for the sake of the
other great CRPG's market, not personally)--again they're entitled to
their own opinion, but in a discussion group, I'm entitled to state mine
as well.
> Diablo is a direct descendant of Rogue & Nethack, the oldest of
> the
> genre.
> Rick
Are you trying to tell me they're older than Ultima and Wizardry?? At
any rate, again, here's where our opinions differ--people can call
anything whatever they want, but I like to think RPG's and Adventure
RPG's are *my* favorite--wandering around hacking things up just doesn't
do anything for me past the first 15 minutes. 8/
Farewell,
louise
On Mon, 01 Sep 1997 09:22:39 -0400, "Justin A. Hussel, The High
Toadlord" <hus...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>I definately agree--Ultima 7 and Ultima 7 Part 2 are my all-time
>favorite CRPG's.
Me too! Although the game I am currently playing, Daggerfall, is a lot
of fun also.
>I, however, actually enjoyed Ultima 8 ALMOST as much,
>though I know most Ultima-fans didn't.
AAAAAAAAGH!!!! With all respect for your opinion as an individual, how
can you *possibly* have enjoyed Ultima 8 almost as much?
>Once I installed the patch that
>fixed the jumping (made it so you could just point and click and you'd
>automatically jump to the location without having to do the arcade
>crap),
The patch made the game possible to play, but then (IMO) one finds
that the game itself is basically uninteresting and entirely trivial
in comparison with Ultima 7. It was so *lame*!!!!
>I didn't experience any problems
Me either, after installing the patch, but there's more to enjoying a
game than not experiencing problems...
>and ejoyed the game immensely--
I'm glad you did. Honestly. But I'd like to know what universe you
happen to reside in... in my universe, Ultima 8 was a rip-off that was
not worthy of being included as part of the Ultima series.
>I only wish the world of Pagan was larger (with more cities and NPC's).
Well, that would be a start, I suppose. There was a lot more than this
missing from the game (like nearly everything).
>It's definately the most visually and 'audio'lly attractive Ultima game.
I didn't even think it was all that great in these respects... I'd
rather watch and listen to Ultima 7 any day. I especially disliked the
diagonally oriented top-down view, and the music was incredibly
annoying! I'd rather listen to a cornflakes commercial.
Happily returning to Daggerfall,
--
louise louis...@hotmail.com
lou...@usa.net
* * * * * * Protect Your Privacy * * * * * *
* Boycott ALL users of connection.com *
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord
Douglas Rener wrote:
>
> On Mon, 01 Sep 1997 08:34:29 -0400, "Justin A. Hussel, The High
> Toadlord" <hus...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >This coming from someone who a) thinks his opinion is the world's b)
> >probably prefers Duke Nuke'em to a good RPG?
> >
> >Grow up!
> >
> >....The High Toadlord
> >Justin A. Hussel
> >
> >....Sick of fucking idiots who have to take every opprotunity to turn
> a
> >discussion about games into non-related personal attacks...
>
> Personal attacks???
> Why don't you re-read some of your previous posts.
>
> My name is "Doug" , and you like to be refered to as "ToadLord"
> You grow up..."boy"
>
Oh, kiss my hairy ass--I haven't attacked one thing other than Diablo--I
only insulted that one asshole above when he/she/it told me to 'get off
my high horse'--I've never jumped in a chain and called someone a
'retard' for saying they did or didn't like a game. Forget it--I don't
have time for this shit--say whatever the hell you want--this is the
last message I'm adding to this fucked up branch of the chain.
....The High Toadlord
Justin A. Hussel
....And to think at times I wonder why I don't participate in more
newsgroup discussions... {sigh}
Douglas Rener
On Mon, 01 Sep 1997 10:32:01 -0400, "Justin A. Hussel, The High
Toadlord" <hus...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Oh, kiss my hairy ass--I haven't attacked one thing other than Diablo--I
>only insulted that one asshole above when he/she/it told me to 'get off
>my high horse'--I've never jumped in a chain and called someone a
>'retard' for saying they did or didn't like a game. Forget it--I don't
>have time for this shit--say whatever the hell you want--this is the
>last message I'm adding to this fucked up branch of the chain.
>
You misunderstood my intent.
I could care less *what* you were saying...
it was *how* you were saying it.
You can make a point without all the cursing! Don't you go to
church or anything?
Jesus Saves!
Rick Cortese
> and in my view, there is a standard for CRPG's--the Ultima games, the
> Wizardry games, Albion, etc. Technology simply isn't advanced enough at
> this point to make a REAL RPG on a computer or console--I know that.
> That's what Daggerfall tried to do--and (again in my opinion) it failed
> miserably.
I've mentioned this before, but Ultima is live action since at least 3,
maybe 2. Ditto for EOB, Dungeon Master, ...
<well thought out comments snipped>
The only difference between Diablo & other games you mentioned, is the
amount of time you need to finish it. Diablo single player has as good a
story line as any CRPG, it is just that it is over in a weekend. It is
short, it is light, very few questions about game dispite a million sales
because of this.
What I would propose has happened to us or why RPG's became a small market
segment.
We are a vocal group & usually give feed back to game developers. Often we
are demanding in we ask for the bigger, wider, longer games to be
developed. The software houses publishing CRPGs has responded to this &
ended up making a few games that are unplayable by the general public. For
instance, I can recall counting 26 pages of notes for a CPRG just including
maps & hints, things like spells were listed in the hand book. Nobody but
a dedicated core of RPG'ers can finish these things, the general public
gets frustrated and quits, makes a mental note not to buy Ultima V when it
comes out. We got what we wanted & managed to help kill the genre.
Now here comes Diablo, a RPG that is retro. You don't have to take notes,
just pay attention to the NPC coversations & complete 4 or 5 quest. Don't
do anything remarkably stupid with your leveling points & you will finish
the game. Bingo! 1,000,000 in sales! It is not the genre that lost the
general public, it is our input & demands that made the general public move
away. It disturbs me that just because a RPG is light, people say it is not
a true RPG. When I DM, often times I deliberately try to make a game that
can be done in one evening. It is much easier then trying to get the same
group together on a regular basis. Diablo has to follow the same
guidelines since you have to complete the last 3 levels in one session of
multiplayer. This dictates a maximum of 3-4 hours of gameplay.
Right now if a first time computer user asked me what CRPG to buy, I would
say Diablo without hesitation. If I said something like the Complete Ulitma
7, I know I would stand a 9 out of 10 chance of leaving them with a bad
impression of RPGs. You just can't toss a neophyte into the games we play.
Because it was so light, Diablo probably brought 900k new people to the
genre & eventually we will be better for the exposure.
Rick
Rick Cortese
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord <hus...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<3409881A...@ix.netcom.com>...
> swanlee wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, 30 Aug 1997 09:54:28 -0400, "Justin A. Hussel, The High
> > Toadlord" <hus...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Just like the emphasize the well-known fact: Diablo may have great
> > >graphics, music, and sound--and it may be fun for *a while*--BUT BY
> > THE
> > >GODS, IT IS *NOT* AN RPG!!!
> > >
> > >....The High Toadlord
> > >Justin A. Hussel
> >
> > Who gives a damn what it is becuase it does have great
> > graphics,music,sound and is fun.
>
> Excuse me, but I and other vetran RPG'ers do. Diablo is fun--for a very
> short while. After that, it grows old, pointless, boring, and generally
> stinky. It does NOT offer a role-playing experience, so people looking
> for role-playing games shouldn't expect to find one in Diablo!!!
>
> ....The High Toadlord
> Justin A. Hussel
>
You seem to be a little confused about what a RPG is. A real RPG has only a
setting & the thinest of plots. That is the WHOLE idea: You are the one
that is supposed to develop the story through your game play.
What has happened over the last 20 years is RPGs programmers have included
a lot of story development in the storyline similar to an Adventure game. A
lot of experienced RPG players refer to this as 'cattle chute' & we hate
this more then any nags you may have about Diablo. Just a matter of tastes,
but I haven't played an Adventure game in 10 years, you probably like them.
You should really just go to any good game store & buy some pen & paper
RPGs, other then laying out the cites & country side, you are pretty much
on your own as far as what you do & where you go, who you talk to, & the
conversations are all made up on the fly. I feel people who complain there
is no such thing as a real RPG on a computer to be more accurate then
yours. Diablo is a direct descendant of Rogue & Nethack, the oldest of the
genre.
Rick
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord
Douglas Rener wrote:
>
> On Sun, 31 Aug 1997 19:51:26 -0400, "Justin A. Hussel, The High
> Toadlord" <hus...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> > fucking SHIT. PURE SHIT shit fucking
>
> Hey Toadlord,
> I condensed your message for you.
> You sound like a real retard.
This coming from someone who a) thinks his opinion is the world's b)
probably prefers Duke Nuke'em to a good RPG?
Grow up!
....The High Toadlord
Justin A. Hussel
....Sick of fucking idiots who have to take every opprotunity to turn a
David Thompson
I wouldn't call Ultima 7 a hardcore RPG. It's a wonderful game, but
there was almost nothing to character creation and the combat was
automated. If you want a truly hardcore CRPG in the old-style, play
Wizardry 7.
On Mon, 01 Sep 1997 01:21:40 -0400, jmo...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> Ok here's the skinny. Fist off Diablo is junk. I bought it on a
>monday, Diablo was dead by thursday night, i returned it on Friday and
>that was that. It's pretty, it sounds good but it's empty, it's not an
>RPG. Ok now what you want to do is run down to a software store and
>pick up the Complete Ultima 7 series. now we're talking hard core,
>detailed rpg. It's a very high quality game. Go for it!! Have fun
____________________________________________
'Give me back the Berlin Wall,
Give me Stalin or Saint Paul.
I've seen the future, baby,
It is murder.'
- Leonard Cohen, "The Future"
To email me, remove the capital letters from my address.
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord
Yep--the Exile game's are great... I only wish they had music! I know,
music's not the most important thing in a game... I just love a game
with good music! 8P
Douglas Rener
On Mon, 01 Sep 1997 08:34:29 -0400, "Justin A. Hussel, The High
Toadlord" <hus...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>This coming from someone who a) thinks his opinion is the world's b)
>probably prefers Duke Nuke'em to a good RPG?
>
>Grow up!
>
>....The High Toadlord
>Justin A. Hussel
>
>....Sick of fucking idiots who have to take every opprotunity to turn a
>discussion about games into non-related personal attacks...
Personal attacks???
Why don't you re-read some of your previous posts.
My name is "Doug" , and you like to be refered to as "ToadLord"
You grow up..."boy"
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord
jmo...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
(SNIP)
> Ok here's the skinny. Fist off Diablo is junk. I bought it
> on a
> monday, Diablo was dead by thursday night, i returned it on Friday and
> that was that. It's pretty, it sounds good but it's empty, it's not
> an
> RPG. Ok now what you want to do is run down to a software store and
> pick up the Complete Ultima 7 series. now we're talking hard core,
> detailed rpg. It's a very high quality game. Go for it!! Have fun
Boy am I glad to hear you (and so many other players) say that (bashing
Diablo and praising Ultima 7)!! I agree 99.9%! (the .1% is due to the
fact that I didn't bring Diablo back and might play it again some day)
;)
The Keeper
I think Diablo is the best game I've ever played and I've played them
all. It's an RPG according to all the PC Game Mags, so thats what I
call it. I does have a little more action than most RPG's, but thats
what makes it fun.
jmo...@ix.netcom.com
TSandrich wrote:
>
> I gotta say that Ultima7 was (to me) a boring, unplayable mess. The
> characters are constantly whining for food, combat is really unmanageable,
> the magic system is overly difficult and the Avatar is an empty shell. I
> know the game is very popular but at least with Diablo, the interface is
> smooth, the game doesn't thrash the hard drive, loads and saves don't take
> five minutes.
> I wanted to like Ultima but I just couldn't. Understand, this is just my
> personal response and I'm not talking about your religion or mother here.
> Happy Gaming>Boy am I glad to hear you (and so many other players) say
> that (bashing
> >Diablo and praising Ultima 7)!! I agree 99.9%! (
>
U7 is a game that you really have to stick with in order to love.
Diablo, as I said has great graphics amd sound but was empty in terms of
a story. There was nobody to talk to it was just --- hack---slash--pick
up gold -- go downstairs--- repeat. Zzzzzzz...... Not the least bit
interesting in terms of storyline. U7 had a point, but I do respect
your opinion.
TSandrich
Rob Alexander
Upon the day of Sat, 30 Aug 1997, swanlee <swa...@avana.net> scrawled
on the wall (in blood):
>On Sat, 30 Aug 1997 09:54:28 -0400, "Justin A. Hussel, The High
>Toadlord" <hus...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>>Just like the emphasize the well-known fact: Diablo may have great
>>graphics, music, and sound--and it may be fun for *a while*--BUT BY THE
>>GODS, IT IS *NOT* AN RPG!!!
>>
>>Justin A. Hussel
>
>graphics,music,sound and is fun.
Just a couple of points:
1) This is a CRPG newsgroup.
2) I think this thread started with someone asking about the best
current CRPG.
--
Rob Alexander Replace nospam with mhairi to reply
www.mhairi.demon.co.uk - RPGs, Kung Fu, my quest for an OS and Teletubbies!
Jacob K. Matthews
On 29 Aug 1997 06:21:33 GMT, mr...@rain.org (Marcus Reid) wrote:
>It's been a while since my last RPG (World of XEEN) and it's about time
>for another one. What's the best current RPG? I like games that have
>a good amount of depth to them, ones with a real feel to them that makes
>you look back on them and wish for a sequel. TIA.
I happen to like Betrayal in Antara, which was recently released.
Took the best aspects of BaK and improved on them. I especially
like the magic research system.
Jacob K. Matthews
Chemical Engineering '98
Case Western Reserve University
jk...@po.cwru.edu
Michael J. Solomon
>I didn't even think it was all that great in these respects... I'd
>rather watch and listen to Ultima 7 any day. I especially disliked the
>diagonally oriented top-down view, and the music was incredibly
>annoying! I'd rather listen to a cornflakes commercial.
Was that on a soundblaster? On a Sound Canvas the music in Ultima 8
was very realistic. It (besides the graphics) was the only good thing
about the game.
Michael J. Solomon
>I gotta say that Ultima7 was (to me) a boring, unplayable mess. The
>characters are constantly whining for food, combat is really unmanageable,
>the magic system is overly difficult and the Avatar is an empty shell. I
>know the game is very popular but at least with Diablo, the interface is
>smooth, the game doesn't thrash the hard drive, loads and saves don't take
>five minutes.
Ah, yes. The 'always whining for food' approach. The bandwagon
mentality on this group is amazing sometimes. While feeding your guys
should have been automatic if you had food, the amount of times they
get hungry wasn't nearly as excessive as some people would like to
believe.
Also, combat was so incredibly unimportant in this game, I was simply
amazed. While I am sure there are others, Ultima 7 is the only RPG I
ever played where the focus was not on combat.The story, and the
conversations with other NPCs took precedence in this game. So much
so, that I was glad that combat was so simple to execute.
Werner Arend
On Mon, 1 Sep 1997, Douglas Rener wrote:
> it was *how* you were saying it.
> You can make a point without all the cursing! Don't you go to
> church or anything?
> Jesus Saves!
Argh - we've got ourselves another one. OK, I'll try to keep friendly:
If this is the essence of what you had to say, *please* go away.
This NG can very well do without proselytizing fundamentalists. If you
have anything to say about the games, we'll all be pleased to see you
sticking to your standards. Not that I'm all that happy with the
Toadlord's choice of words, but it's people like you who make me really
angry....
Werner
Paul H.
In article <34082614...@ix.netcom.com>,
"Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord" <hus...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Just like the emphasize the well-known fact: Diablo may have great
>graphics, music, and sound--and it may be fun for *a while*--BUT BY THE
>GODS, IT IS *NOT* AN RPG!!!
>
>.....The High Toadlord
>Justin A. Hussel
Sorry, Toad-boy, but you're wrong: Diablo is indeed an RPG! You get to play the
role of a confused and soon-to-be disillusioned gamer who thinks he's buying an RPG.
So there.
:)
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord
Rick Cortese wrote:
>
> > and in my view, there is a standard for CRPG's--the Ultima games,
> the
> > Wizardry games, Albion, etc. Technology simply isn't advanced
> enough at
> > this point to make a REAL RPG on a computer or console--I know that.
> > That's what Daggerfall tried to do--and (again in my opinion) it
> failed
> > miserably.
Jesus (meant in blasphemy), I know I said I was done responding, and
once I leave this chain I am--as I am to the other branch--but I just
had to say... I sure am glad I'm not playing your 'role-playing
games'!! 1 night? What a bore. You'd think anyone could find something
more entertaining to do in a night than an RPG that's over in a day...
Finally, in response to the rest of your letter, let me just say that
though I hate the mainstream and seldom base opinions (even slightly) on
what anyone else thinks--I sure am glad idiots like you are in the
majority! Why don't you just post a thread that says 'Ultima 7 is not
an RPG!' and see what kind of responses you get!!! If traditional
"true" role-playing really means wandering around fighting things for 1
gaming session and completing a couple of simple quests and one simple
short story, then I--for one--am GLAD there aren't any 'true rpg's' out
there. They sound very pathetic...
Ultima 7 is the best game ever made--yes, that's an opinion, not a fact,
but I'm sure there are more people out there who'll agree with that
opinion than who would agree that 'Ultima 7' is not an RPG.
Gods, I almost weep for any computer newbies out there who you advise to
get Diablo above all other CRPG's! I can only hope anyone stupid enough
to talk to you and follow your advice deserves what they get...
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord
>
> Sorry, Toad-boy, but you're wrong: Diablo is indeed an RPG! You get to
> play the
> role of a confused and soon-to-be disillusioned gamer who thinks he's
> buying an RPG.
>
> So there.
>
> :)
He he he... If you hadn't called me 'Toad-boy', I would have just
laughed and agreed with you--even said "Lillian smile upon you!"
David Wile
In article <340AB654...@ix.netcom.com>, "Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord" <hus...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>.....The High Toadlord
>Justin A. Hussel
>
>discussion about games into non-related personal attacks...
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Evad
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord
Desslock wrote:
> so
> since Ultima 9 is so far, far away), the graphics were good and the
> sound was outstanding. The General Midi soundtrack is perhaps the
> best
> soundtrack I've ever heard. I wish more companies still produced Midi
> soundtracks (especially now that virtually everyone has a wavetable
> card)
>
> Desslock
Aaaa! Why does everyone hate Ultima 8 SOO much? It may not be as good
as other Ultima games, but it's still a great game--certainly better
than Diablo (of course, IN MY OPINION.)
But gods--don't say that about MIDI music! I like MIDI music because
it's so small and easy to handle & use for my PBEM games--and sounds
decent with Cubic Player--but I--and many, many others out there--do not
have a wavetable card!! Personally, I'm always overjoyed when I find
that a game has REAL CD music or .WAV music--I even know a lot of people
who have great wavetable cards but still prefer CD and .WAV music to
midi's!
I for one hope more companies/games/etc. will follow the examples of
Betrayal at Krondor (later version with CD music), Entomorph,
Thunderscape, and Shadows Over Riva and provide *REAL* .wav and/or CD
music--something everyone can hear with the same great superior
quality--even if they don't have a big expensive soundcard!
....Justin A. Hussel
The High Toadlord
Neil Fradkin
> Agreed! I *HATE* excessive combat and love good stories--I guess that's
> why I loved Ultima 7 so much but continually complain about most modern
> 'crpg's'... Even most other CRPG's I love annoy me with their combat
> systems... Ultima 7 was the only one that didn't!
What? You mean the "C" in CRPG dosen't stand for "Combat"? What else
would you do in an RPG? Develop a character, interact in a world without
killing things, make decisions that influence the plot! Who would want
to do that? ;)
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord
louise wrote:
>
> On Mon, 01 Sep 1997 09:22:39 -0400, "Justin A. Hussel, The High
> Toadlord" <hus...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >I definately agree--Ultima 7 and Ultima 7 Part 2 are my all-time
> >favorite CRPG's.
>
> Me too! Although the game I am currently playing, Daggerfall, is a lot
> of fun also.
I'm always glad to hear from somone who agrees Ultima 7 was one of the
best CRPG's of all time--especially after wasting an hour writing a
reply to someone who dares to say Ultima 7 isn't even an RPG and
Daggerfall is! Jeeze...
>
> >I, however, actually enjoyed Ultima 8 ALMOST as much,
> >though I know most Ultima-fans didn't.
>
> AAAAAAAAGH!!!! With all respect for your opinion as an individual, how
> can you *possibly* have enjoyed Ultima 8 almost as much?
Well, since you respected my opinion I'll give you the same
respect--I'll just say again that in my view, Ultima 8 was a very
enjoyable game. The story wasn't as long and detailed, but it was
well-developed and it DID continue the Ultima saga--and in my opinion,
though the view took a while to get used to, it did have the best
graphics and definately the best music and sound of any Ultima game to
date.
> >Once I installed the patch that
> >fixed the jumping (made it so you could just point and click and
> you'd
> >automatically jump to the location without having to do the arcade
> >crap),
>
> The patch made the game possible to play, but then (IMO) one finds
> that the game itself is basically uninteresting and entirely trivial
> in comparison with Ultima 7. It was so *lame*!!!!
Again, you're entitled to your opinion... I really didn't think it was
lame at all... Just that it needed a little more story and a larger
world... And it did have a very similar feel to the rest of the Ultima
games in many respects...
> >I didn't experience any problems
>
> Me either, after installing the patch, but there's more to enjoying a
> game than not experiencing problems...
>
> >and ejoyed the game immensely--
>
> I'm glad you did. Honestly. But I'd like to know what universe you
> happen to reside in... in my universe, Ultima 8 was a rip-off that was
> not worthy of being included as part of the Ultima series.
Once again, your opinion. I hated Ultima 8 before I installed the patch
and before I played Ultima 7 and 7 Part 2--but after I played and
enjoyed U7 and U7pt2 so much, I just HAD to finish my Ultima (story and
game) experience with Ultima 8! I enjoyed it very much, and I really
wish more people did: Though I'm glad Ultima 9 is going into a
different direction, I would've liked to see the add-on to Ultima 8 and
even more CRPG's (though maybe not more Ultima games) done with the U8
engine (other than Crusader.)
> >I only wish the world of Pagan was larger (with more cities and
> NPC's).
>
> Well, that would be a start, I suppose. There was a lot more than this
> missing from the game (like nearly everything).
Like what? Really, I'm interested to hear--I'm really shocked--I never
talked/wrote to anyone who thought Ultima 8 was THIS bad... I can see
its faults and even understand many of the views of those who dislike
it, but I fail to see how one can really beleive it's as bad as you seem
to think it is! Oh well... Once again: Everyone's entitlted to
opinions, tastes, and preferences...
> >It's definately the most visually and 'audio'lly attractive Ultima
> game.
>
> I didn't even think it was all that great in these respects... I'd
> rather watch and listen to Ultima 7 any day. I especially disliked the
> diagonally oriented top-down view, and the music was incredibly
> annoying! I'd rather listen to a cornflakes commercial.
And have you EVER played an overview RPG with better graphics and sound?
I wonder if you even like new age/fantasy style music at all... That's
really the one thing that bothered me about Ultima 7 and U7p2 (and even
Ultima Online)--the lack of continual music and sound! What music there
was was great--but it was too sporatic! Me: I prefer constant
background music and sound... Even with my stinky soundblaster card...
Farewell,
Sales
>>SNIP<<
>> Oh get off your damn high horse. Don't give me this rpg veterb crap I
>> have been playin since the mid 80s. If it were up to alot of you
>> uptight overbearing "veteran rpg's" their would be no such thing as a
>> true role playing game cause none of them would fit all the little
>> million sub catagories you picky bastards would consider a true rpg to
>> be. It was a fun game and thats the bottom line.
>
>Oh, give me a fucking break--count one some asshole like you to turn a
>discussion about games into a personal attack. My last word on the
>subject: Diablo is a nice game for about a week--then it's SHIT. PURE
>SHIT. It's about as much a RPG as Gauntlet (Guantlet's probably
>actually funner...). Crawling through one big dungeon and hacking the
>shit out of 86000 simultenously-attacking fire-ball breathing monsters
>isn't an RPG. If I had realized how un-rpg-like it was, I probably
>wouldn't have bought it--at least not until it had been out for a while
>and the price had gone down!!! Ever heard of Strife? A game with the
>doom-engine but conversation and RPG elements? It may not be a
>traditional RPG, but as far as I'm concerned, it's still more of an RPG
>than Diablo. Diablo's about the only thing I've ever seen come out that
>claims to be an RPG but *ISN'T.*
>
>Quit trying to tell everyone the game is 'fun and that's all that
>matters' just because you feel that way--a lot of us out there don't!
>You're entitled to your own fucking opinion, but not to [form one for]
>everyone else! Some people prefer a good story, exploration, and
>interaction to... "Oh, here comes another 25 daemons... Better pull out
>my Fire Blast Bloody Death Staff..."
>
>.....The High Toadlord
>Justin A. Hussel
I don't want to beat a dead horse here, so I'll just start by saying I agree
completely...I've seen paper thicker than the substance to Diablo.
Heres my BIG question. I seemed to remember seeing an article somewhere
touting Diablo as the RPG of the year. All I can ask is "What the hell is
going on?" Why is it that if a game takes place in a medieval/gothic setting,
contains swords or dragons or magic, its *automatically* considered an RPG?
What gives? I guess now HexenII will be in the running for best RPG of 1997?
After all, theres a crusader and swords in the game, so by damn, it MUST be an
RPG, mustn't it? That Diablo served a niche in the gaming community can't be
argued, but what about those of us waiting for something as detailed and
absorbing as the Ultimas? For crying out loud...the town of Tristram in
Diablo contained, like, 8 buildings!! Would it have been that much more
difficult for Blizzard to lend some more atmosphere to the game? What has
happened to the glory of RPG's of the caliber of Ultima or Wizardry? If
Diablo can be a contender for an RPG award, this is a bleak sign indeed for
the future of RPGs.
-Joe
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord
Sales wrote:
>
> >>SNIP<<
>
> I don't want to beat a dead horse here, so I'll just start by saying
> I agree
> completely...I've seen paper thicker than the substance to Diablo.
>
> Heres my BIG question. I seemed to remember seeing an article
> somewhere
> touting Diablo as the RPG of the year. All I can ask is "What the
> hell is
> going on?"
My thoughts exactly! 8( I think it was in PC Gamer... I think it
'almost one'--but PC gamer claimed there hadn't been any real RPG's
released, so they didn't award one. (Or maybe the year I'm thinking of
was before that...)
>Why is it that if a game takes place in a medieval/gothic
> setting,
> contains swords or dragons or magic, its *automatically* considered an
> RPG?
Something most of us wonder, I'm sure. 8(
> What gives? I guess now HexenII will be in the running for best RPG
> of 1997?
Gods, I wouldn't doubt it. 8<
> After all, theres a crusader and swords in the game, so by damn, it
> MUST be an
> RPG, mustn't it? That Diablo served a niche in the gaming community
> can't be
> argued, but what about those of us waiting for something as detailed
> and
> absorbing as the Ultimas? For crying out loud...the town of Tristram
> in
> Diablo contained, like, 8 buildings!! Would it have been that much
> more
> difficult for Blizzard to lend some more atmosphere to the game?
Again: Exactly what I thought. Diablo COULD have been a great
game--MAYBE even a role-playing game--*IF* they used the same engine but
ENLARGED THE WORLD, made more than one town (or at least one BIG town),
put more depth into the dungeons and dungeon interaction, made more and
varying dungeons... And above all: made the game something other than
'hack, slash, and blast your way to hell!' (Literally!)
Anyway, I actually enjoyed Diablo for A WHILE... But certainly not as I
enjoy a good rpg...
> What
> has
> happened to the glory of RPG's of the caliber of Ultima or Wizardry?
> If
> Diablo can be a contender for an RPG award, this is a bleak sign
> indeed for
> the future of RPGs.
>
> -Joe
Well, with game's like Balder's Gate (and eventually the next Krondor
game, the next Wizardry game, the next M&M game, and Ultima 9) around
the corner, perhaps there is still some hope... 8)
Desslock
Michael J. Solomon wrote:
>
> >I didn't even think it was all that great in these respects... I'd
> >rather watch and listen to Ultima 7 any day. I especially disliked the
> >diagonally oriented top-down view, and the music was incredibly
> >annoying! I'd rather listen to a cornflakes commercial.
>
> was very realistic. It (besides the graphics) was the only good thing
> about the game.
I have to agree. Much as I was disappointed with Ultima 8 (even more so
since Ultima 9 is so far, far away), the graphics were good and the
sound was outstanding. The General Midi soundtrack is perhaps the best
soundtrack I've ever heard. I wish more companies still produced Midi
soundtracks (especially now that virtually everyone has a wavetable
card)
Desslock
--
Weekly RPG Therapy Column: http://www.gamepen.com/therapy/pc.rpg
Desslock's Guide to Upcoming Role-Playing
Games:http://www.gamepen.com/desslock/
(this week: Fallout preview and interview)
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord
TSandrich wrote:
>
> I gotta say that Ultima7 was (to me) a boring, unplayable mess. The
> characters are constantly whining for food, combat is really
> unmanageable,
> the magic system is overly difficult and the Avatar is an empty
> shell. I
> know the game is very popular but at least with Diablo, the interface
> is
> smooth, the game doesn't thrash the hard drive, loads and saves don't
> take
> five minutes.
> my
> personal response and I'm not talking about your religion or mother
> here.
> Happy Gaming>Boy am I glad to hear you (and so many other players) say
> that (bashing
> >Diablo and praising Ultima 7)!! I agree 99.9%! (
>
> TSandrich
Of course everyone's titled to their own opinion, so I won't bich about
it. But in my opinion, though the food was annoying, Ultima 7 was an
excellent game with an excellent interface and engine... I certainly
wouldn't say the same about Diablo (trying to gulp my potion and then
cast a spell while 6000 fire-breathing things are running at me at once
isn't my idea of a fun and smooth engine/interface... 8(
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord
Michael J. Solomon wrote:
> Also, combat was so incredibly unimportant in this game, I was simply
> amazed. While I am sure there are others, Ultima 7 is the only RPG I
> ever played where the focus was not on combat.The story, and the
> conversations with other NPCs took precedence in this game. So much
> so, that I was glad that combat was so simple to execute.
Agreed! I *HATE* excessive combat and love good stories--I guess that's
Joe Castle
In article <19970901164...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, tsan...@aol.com (TSandrich) wrote:
>
>
>I gotta say that Ultima7 was (to me) a boring, unplayable mess. The
>characters are constantly whining for food, combat is really unmanageable,
>the magic system is overly difficult and the Avatar is an empty shell. I
>know the game is very popular but at least with Diablo, the interface is
>smooth, the game doesn't thrash the hard drive, loads and saves don't take
>five minutes.
I can understand the complaint with the food issue (I find it hard to believe
grown adults can't feed themselves). But I think the majority of your
concerns are more hardware specific (I found the game quite playabe on my old,
old 386/16Mhz machine). The avatar an empty shell? The whole point of an RPG
is that you need to create the personality of the Avatar yourself.... I also
just can't give Diablo praise simply because it "looks pretty".
>I wanted to like Ultima but I just couldn't. Understand, this is just my
>personal response and I'm not talking about your religion or mother here.
>Happy Gaming>Boy am I glad to hear you (and so many other players) say
>that (bashing
>>Diablo and praising Ultima 7)!! I agree 99.9%! (
>
>
>TSandrich
Of course, this is just my opinion too 8-)
-Joe
Joe Castle
In article <340b4a7f...@news.alt.net>, kee...@the.crypt.com (The Keeper) wrote:
>
>I think Diablo is the best game I've ever played and I've played them
>all. It's an RPG according to all the PC Game Mags, so thats what I
>call it.
Not to get personal or anything, but do you have any opinions or beliefs of
your own? Or is everything in your life dictated to you by "the press"?
>I does have a little more action than most RPG's, but thats
>what makes it fun.
Again, I know newsgroups are public forums of open discussion, and I
certainly don't believe in squelching, but how can you just jump on the
bandwagon and say Diablo is "one of the best RPGs".
-Joe
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord
Neil Fradkin wrote:
>
> > Agreed! I *HATE* excessive combat and love good stories--I guess
> that's
> > why I loved Ultima 7 so much but continually complain about most
> modern
> > 'crpg's'... Even most other CRPG's I love annoy me with their combat
> > systems... Ultima 7 was the only one that didn't!
>
> What? You mean the "C" in CRPG dosen't stand for "Combat"?
> What else
> would you do in an RPG? Develop a character, interact in a world
> without
> killing things, make decisions that influence the plot! Who would want
> to do that? ;)
He he he... EXACTLY! Albion was probably the last game out there like
that... And even that had a little too much combat... I think at least
SOME form of combat is important to any RPG, but it should have a point
to it, and the combat system shouldn't be overwhelming or boring! Ultima
7 actually had plenty of combat (you gotta have at least some bad guys
to kill in an epic fantasy story, afterall...), but it was done in a way
where: the monsters and creatures were part of the world rather than
things just there to be faught by players , and where the combat system
was quick and simple and didn't turn the game into a hack'n'slash
constant battle mess...
Nirnaeth
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord wrote:
>
>Aaaa! Why does everyone hate Ultima 8 SOO much? It may not be as good
>as other Ultima games, but it's still a great game--certainly better
>than Diablo (of course, IN MY OPINION.)
Haha, you'll "like" Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain, sure.
They call it rpg too... was I disgusted when I tried to
play it (but only from the rpg viewpoint, otherways
I must say its cool action, playing vampire).
Somewhere I read post why they mark these games RPG:
thery're based on console action games, and in console
gaming for rpg you need only a character you can play.
>But gods--don't say that about MIDI music! I like MIDI music because
>it's so small and easy to handle & use for my PBEM games--and sounds
>decent with Cubic Player--but I--and many, many others out there--do not
>have a wavetable card!! Personally, I'm always overjoyed when I find
>that a game has REAL CD music or .WAV music--I even know a lot of people
>who have great wavetable cards but still prefer CD and .WAV music to
>midi's!
Do you like those disgusting breaks when the music starts
to play from cd? Man, sometimes I'd like to meet those who
started the whole cd-audio tracks only thing in dark forest,
so I can show them the power of Gurthang (or chainsaw, grrr).
I'd like to see more games that include both MIDI music and
cd-audio music, it's not a problem coz nearly every
cd-audio track was composed in midi format first.
So you're listening to midi's in cubic? on sb?
then get gus patches (if you already don't have them),
this will give you wavetable quality for midi on sb
(I've tried it on my old sb16 with patches from my gus pnp).
>I for one hope more companies/games/etc. will follow the examples of
>Betrayal at Krondor (later version with CD music), Entomorph,
>Thunderscape, and Shadows Over Riva and provide *REAL* .wav and/or CD
>music--something everyone can hear with the same great superior
>quality--even if they don't have a big expensive soundcard!
What do you mean with expensive? 80-100 bucks?
it's not expensive even for me (and my monthly
salary is about 180 bucks, heh).
If you'd like Roland it will be a bit more (around 300).
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
nirn...@deathsdoor.com UIN#1581292
Reach for the tears... they're raining from the sky...
so sad... unnumbered... so many... nothing just cry...
take my hand and walk with me... into the everblack...
HS Simpson
On Wed, 03 Sep 1997 01:05:23 GMT, louis...@hotmail.com (louise) had
these pearls of wisdom to dispense:
>On Tue, 02 Sep 1997 14:55:38 -0400, "Justin A. Hussel, The High
>Toadlord" <hus...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>>I for one hope more companies/games/etc. will follow the examples of
>>Betrayal at Krondor (later version with CD music), Entomorph,
>>Thunderscape, and Shadows Over Riva and provide *REAL* .wav and/or CD
>>music--something everyone can hear with the same great superior
>>quality--even if they don't have a big expensive soundcard!
>
>Amen to that!! What a difference, for those of us with Soundblasters.
>--
> louise louis...@hotmail.com
> lou...@usa.net
Louise, Justin,
I would agree with you *IF* wavetable sound were anywhere as expensive
as you both seem to imply. If you're playing any computer game soon
after its initial release (within a year), you're likely spending a
bit of coin already.
With Creative Labs pushing its AWE64 Value at bargain prices (under
$100 US), you can find the older AWE32 and SB32 at even cheaper
prices. Too rich for your blood still? How about ordering the
Ensoniq Soundscape VIVO 90 direct from Ensoniq for $60 US?
Want to stay with SB digital? Grab a dirt cheap SB16 (with
waveblaster connector) and order the Soundscape daughterboard from
Ensoniq that they're blowing out for $20 US. Surely anyone who plays
computer games regularly can afford this!
I for one hope that redbook music, especially as implemented in games
like Thunderscape and Entomorph, go the way of the dinosaur. Justin,
you cite the Betrayal at Krondor CD. Did you also like the way the
music cuts out after a short while without looping? Very annoying
when you're in the middle of adrenalin-pumping combat. Get one of
those cheap wavetable cards and you'll find that the general MIDI
music is just as good and in some cases, better. Fortunately, BaK CD
gives you the best of both worlds, MIDI *and* digital music. And not
just any digital music -- you can play it as a regular music cd.
As another example of why redbook audio is not superior where games
are concerned, just compare the music in X-Wing vs TIE Fighter
(redbook) and the early games TIE Fighter and X-Wing (general MIDI).
As someone else mentioned, why not implement both redbook AND general
MIDI? Warcraft 2 did it and so does Heroes of Might & Magic 2. And
of course, BaK CD, way back in 1994.
To reply via e-mail, be sure to remove the NOSPAM from the e-mail address.
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HS Simpson
On Tue, 02 Sep 1997 14:31:05 -0400, "Justin A. Hussel, The High
Toadlord" <hus...@ix.netcom.com> had these pearls of wisdom to
dispense:
[Rick Cortese's well thought-out comments snipped]
>Jesus (meant in blasphemy), I know I said I was done responding, and
>once I leave this chain I am--as I am to the other branch--but I just
>had to say... I sure am glad I'm not playing your 'role-playing
>games'!! 1 night? What a bore. You'd think anyone could find something
>more entertaining to do in a night than an RPG that's over in a day...
>
>Finally, in response to the rest of your letter, let me just say that
>though I hate the mainstream and seldom base opinions (even slightly) on
>what anyone else thinks--I sure am glad idiots like you are in the
>majority! Why don't you just post a thread that says 'Ultima 7 is not
>an RPG!' and see what kind of responses you get!!! If traditional
>"true" role-playing really means wandering around fighting things for 1
>gaming session and completing a couple of simple quests and one simple
>short story, then I--for one--am GLAD there aren't any 'true rpg's' out
>there. They sound very pathetic...
>
>Ultima 7 is the best game ever made--yes, that's an opinion, not a fact,
>but I'm sure there are more people out there who'll agree with that
>opinion than who would agree that 'Ultima 7' is not an RPG.
>
>Gods, I almost weep for any computer newbies out there who you advise to
>get Diablo above all other CRPG's! I can only hope anyone stupid enough
>to talk to you and follow your advice deserves what they get...
Justin,
You've written some excellent posts and for the most part I've enjoyed
reading them. You also stated that you didn't engage in personal
attacks unless the other flamed you first, so why all the vitriol to
Rick's very well thought-out post?
Diablo is a CRPG in the same way that Rogue, Gauntlet, and Nethack are
CRPGs; in fact, Diablo programmers cited those 3 as their main
inspiration. If there were *3* towns in Diablo which you could visit
to buy different items, obtain different quests, and talk to more
NPCs, would that make it seem more of a CRPG to you? To my mind, it
wouldn't be that much different at all. To me, Diablo *IS* a CRPG,
just not a very deep one.
Before you dismiss me a someone who can't appreciate a good CRPG, let
me also add that I really enjoyed Might & Magic 3, Wizardry 6 & 7,
Ultima 7 & 7.5, and Betrayal at Krondor.
The CRPG was *dying* as a genre game developers & publishers were
willing to invest money in. The CRPG audience seemed to be constantly
shrinking with only a small hardcore group remaining. While YOU may
prefer the exclusivity of this club, the end result is that fewer and
fewer CRPGs would be made. I think Rick raised some very good points.
Love it or hate it, Diablo has introduced a whole new group of gamers
to CRPGs, some of who will want more depth that Diablo offered.
Seeing the renewed interest in the genre, more and more developers
will surely rush to "improve" on Diablo. Who knows, but in a few
years time, even you might feel kindly towards Diablo for
re-invigorating development in CRPGs. :)
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord
Nirnaeth wrote:
>
> Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord wrote:
> >
> >Aaaa! Why does everyone hate Ultima 8 SOO much? It may not be as
> good
> >as other Ultima games, but it's still a great game--certainly better
> >than Diablo (of course, IN MY OPINION.)
>
> Haha, you'll "like" Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain, sure.
As I said before, probably something I should look into, though I don't
usually care for vampires... I also heard the game has good voice-over
acting, which is also something that would impress me...
> They call it rpg too... was I disgusted when I tried to
> play it (but only from the rpg viewpoint, otherways
> I must say its cool action, playing vampire).
> Somewhere I read post why they mark these games RPG:
> thery're based on console action games, and in console
> gaming for rpg you need only a character you can play.
Well, I don't really wanna get into a console RPG argument... I'll just
leave it at this: I LOVE console games, and a lot of them--such as the
Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior/Dragon Quest games are *CERTAINLY* TRUE
C (or video game, whatever) RPG's--the only CRPG that's given me
anywhere near as much enjoyment as the console Final Fantasy series is
the Ultima series, Ultima 7 in particular... Console games usually have
excellent stories and very playable interfaces, and always great
music--often much better than PC game music... (Certainly always better
than PC music until the last couple of years...)
>
> Do you like those disgusting breaks when the music starts
> to play from cd? Man, sometimes I'd like to meet those who
> started the whole cd-audio tracks only thing in dark forest,
> so I can show them the power of Gurthang (or chainsaw, grrr).
Well, you're entitled to your opinion. The breaks (when the song ends)
bother me a bit--but I've seen games that have a loop opinion--it's not
impossible--and to me, ANYTHING's worth the superior music--as you say
below, when you buy such a game, not only are you buying a game, you're
also buying a great music CD! 8)
So I'll continue to love games with CD and .WAV music and hope to see
more soon... One day, maybe MIDI's will be 'dinosaurs'. I've already
read notes/articles from many music and game designers who claim they
share the same hopes--there's so much more you can do with 'REAL' music
than with MIDI music... And regardless of what anyone argues, MIDI's can
never be as good and varied as real CD and WAV music CAN be, even with
the best of sound cards...
> I'd like to see more games that include both MIDI music and
> cd-audio music, it's not a problem coz nearly every
> cd-audio track was composed in midi format first.
That's better than just MIDI music, but again: I prefer WAV and CD
music... The most obvious reason would be that I *LOVE* Choral
music/"choral aahs"/etc.... And there's only so much you can do in the
choral area with MIDI's...
> So you're listening to midi's in cubic? on sb?
> then get gus patches (if you already don't have them),
> this will give you wavetable quality for midi on sb
> (I've tried it on my old sb16 with patches from my gus pnp).
Yep--that's what I have--Cubic Player with gus samples. I just wish I
could get the damn thing to play in the background in windows... 8/
>
> What do you mean with expensive? 80-100 bucks?
> it's not expensive even for me (and my monthly
> salary is about 180 bucks, heh).
> If you'd like Roland it will be a bit more (around 300).
Some people like me would need to buy a completely new soundcard, not
just a wavetable daughterboard--My soundcard does not have the ability
to attach a wavetable card--and it's not my fault--my peice of shit
brother owns the computer and picked out the soundcard with no real
care--he really couldn't care less about MIDI (or any other kind of
game) music. So until I have my own PC, I'm stuck with an SB16 with no
wavetable card... (Sigh)
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord
louise wrote:
>
> On Tue, 02 Sep 1997 07:44:14 GMT, mike...@worldnet.att.net (Michael
> J. Solomon) wrote:
>
> >>I didn't even think it was all that great in these respects... I'd
> >>rather watch and listen to Ultima 7 any day. I especially disliked
> the
> >>diagonally oriented top-down view, and the music was incredibly
> >>annoying! I'd rather listen to a cornflakes commercial.
> >
> >Was that on a soundblaster? On a Sound Canvas the music in Ultima 8
> >was very realistic. It (besides the graphics) was the only good thing
> >about the game.
>
> Yes. Soundblaster is what I've got, and what I'll probably be using
> for some time (sigh).
>
> But didn't it drive you absolutely nuts to have to move diagonally? I
> played the game with my head tilted sideways 45 degrees... :)
> --
That's what I almost had to do when I first played Ultima 7... I still
liked Ultima 7 better, but the Ultima 8 view was really more natural
than Ultima 7's... At least IMHO...
....The High Toadlord
louise
On Tue, 02 Sep 1997 14:46:01 -0400, "Justin A. Hussel, The High
Toadlord" <hus...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>louise wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 01 Sep 1997 09:22:39 -0400, "Justin A. Hussel, The High
>> Toadlord" <hus...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>> >I definately agree--Ultima 7 and Ultima 7 Part 2 are my all-time
>> >favorite CRPG's.
>>
>> Me too! Although the game I am currently playing, Daggerfall, is a lot
>> of fun also.
>
>I'm always glad to hear from somone who agrees Ultima 7 was one of the
>best CRPG's of all time--especially after wasting an hour writing a
>reply to someone who dares to say Ultima 7 isn't even an RPG and
>Daggerfall is! Jeeze...
How could they say that! Well, I guess we all see things differently.
Whatever Ultima 7 is, that's what I most like to play. And I also like
to play the kind of game that Daggerfall happens to be.
>> >I, however, actually enjoyed Ultima 8 ALMOST as much,
>> >though I know most Ultima-fans didn't.
Really? Wow.
>>
>> AAAAAAAAGH!!!! With all respect for your opinion as an individual, how
>> can you *possibly* have enjoyed Ultima 8 almost as much?
>
>Well, since you respected my opinion I'll give you the same
>respect--I'll just say again that in my view, Ultima 8 was a very
>enjoyable game. The story wasn't as long and detailed, but it was
>well-developed and it DID continue the Ultima saga--and in my opinion,
>though the view took a while to get used to, it did have the best
>graphics and definately the best music and sound of any Ultima game to
>date.
Possibly my problem with Ultima 8 was more or less unique... After
playing and loving Ultima 7 for some time, I found myself in the
situation of having only one RPG installed on my computer for months,
because I got separated from my software during a move. Anyway, having
nothing but Ultima 8 available to me was sheer hell. It seemed so much
*harder* to me than Ultima 7, even after getting the patch. And, I
didn't feel like there was much of anything interesting to explore. I
never did get used to the diagonal graphics, for some reason. I missed
my buddy Iolo. The country and cities are not as *beautiful* as in
Ultima 7. I even liked training in the arena in the center of town. It
was so nifty to go down into the basement of the inn near town, and
discover all the switches and caverns and so on. Now that's a pretty
stupid thing to get nostalgic about, I agree. Floating through the ice
bergs on our raft in Ultima 7 was the only thing that I found at all
similar to Ultima 8 in aggravation level.
>> The patch made the game possible to play, but then (IMO) one finds
>> that the game itself is basically uninteresting and entirely trivial
>> in comparison with Ultima 7. It was so *lame*!!!!
>
>Again, you're entitled to your opinion... I really didn't think it was
>lame at all... Just that it needed a little more story and a larger
>world... And it did have a very similar feel to the rest of the Ultima
>games in many respects...
I probably would have liked it a lot, if I hadn't expected so much
after Ultima 7, I suppose. I withdraw the "It was so *lame*!!!!" and
will substitute, "In my opinion, it wasn't as much fun." Maybe the
intricacy and elaborate worlds of Ultima 7 (and also of Daggerfall)
are what I enjoy so much about them.
>> I'm glad you did. Honestly. But I'd like to know what universe you
>> happen to reside in... in my universe, Ultima 8 was a rip-off that was
>> not worthy of being included as part of the Ultima series.
>
>Once again, your opinion.
Absolutely. IMO. I got a teensy bit carried away... but I felt like
Ultima 8 was almost on the level of a bad joke, IMO.
>I hated Ultima 8 before I installed the patch
>and before I played Ultima 7 and 7 Part 2--but after I played and
>enjoyed U7 and U7pt2 so much, I just HAD to finish my Ultima (story and
>game) experience with Ultima 8!
:) I know just exactly how you felt! Only for me, I played Ultima 7
and 7 Part 2 over and over and over... Sometimes I just wandered about
exploring and looking for hidden treasures and neat places that I
missed the first time through.
>I enjoyed it very much, and I really
>wish more people did: Though I'm glad Ultima 9 is going into a
>different direction,
Do you believe there will be an Ultima 9? I have heard people talk
about it for a long time, but I do not know if it will ever be
finished or not. (Seems like forever, doesn't it).
>I would've liked to see the add-on to Ultima 8 and
>even more CRPG's (though maybe not more Ultima games) done with the U8
>engine (other than Crusader.)
Have you ever played Ultima 6? Somebody told me that was almost as
good as Ultima 7, so I'm trying to decide whether to play Ultima 6,
Arena, or Diablo after Daggerfall.
>> >I only wish the world of Pagan was larger (with more cities and
>> NPC's).
>>
>> Well, that would be a start, I suppose. There was a lot more than this
>> missing from the game (like nearly everything).
>
>Like what? Really, I'm interested to hear--I'm really shocked--I never
>talked/wrote to anyone who thought Ultima 8 was THIS bad... I can see
>its faults and even understand many of the views of those who dislike
>it, but I fail to see how one can really beleive it's as bad as you seem
>to think it is! Oh well... Once again: Everyone's entitlted to
>opinions, tastes, and preferences...
Thanks for your open-minded attitude. After reading what you said, I
thought about it, and decided maybe I wasn't being completely
objective (see explanation above). It would have been nice if the
world were bigger, it is true. But, well, even the world provided
seemed less realistic, and less intricate as well, with fewer things
in it and fewer secrets to explore. I felt like the game was set up so
that you could beat your head against a wall doing what they wanted
you to do, or you could do... well... a few other things but not a
whole lot else. The incredibly elaborate world provided by Ultima 7
allows a certain intense feeling of freedom that I didn't get at all
in Ultima 8. Ultima 8 felt almost like going to work. :)
Pardon the non-technical analysis... on reflection, it's the only way
I can answer your question completely honestly.
>> >It's definately the most visually and 'audio'lly attractive Ultima
>> game.
>>
>> I didn't even think it was all that great in these respects... I'd
>> rather watch and listen to Ultima 7 any day. I especially disliked the
>> diagonally oriented top-down view, and the music was incredibly
>> annoying! I'd rather listen to a cornflakes commercial.
>
>And have you EVER played an overview RPG with better graphics and sound?
>I wonder if you even like new age/fantasy style music at all...
Yes, but not the same catchy music over, and over, and over, and ....
>That's
>really the one thing that bothered me about Ultima 7 and U7p2 (and even
>Ultima Online)--the lack of continual music and sound!
I really liked that. Then, when the music starts, it's so welcome and
sounds so good to me. Well, each to his own. In real life, I don't
generally play music all the time, and I know a lot of people do.
>What music there was was great--
Yes, it was!!! :)
>but it was too sporatic! Me: I prefer constant
>background music and sound... Even with my stinky soundblaster card...
That's what I've got too. It works. Maybe these other people are
right, and I would have liked the music better with a better card; but
then maybe I would have liked the music to a lot of games better!
Right now, replacing my sound card is pretty far down on my list.
Thanks for the interesting and patient response!
--
louise louis...@hotmail.com
lou...@usa.net
* * * * * * Protect Your Privacy * * * * * *
* Boycott ALL users of connection.com *
louise
>>I didn't even think it was all that great in these respects... I'd
>>rather watch and listen to Ultima 7 any day. I especially disliked the
>>diagonally oriented top-down view, and the music was incredibly
>>annoying! I'd rather listen to a cornflakes commercial.
>
>Was that on a soundblaster? On a Sound Canvas the music in Ultima 8
>was very realistic. It (besides the graphics) was the only good thing
>about the game.
Yes. Soundblaster is what I've got, and what I'll probably be using
for some time (sigh).
But didn't it drive you absolutely nuts to have to move diagonally? I
played the game with my head tilted sideways 45 degrees... :)
louise
On Tue, 02 Sep 1997 14:55:38 -0400, "Justin A. Hussel, The High
Toadlord" <hus...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>I for one hope more companies/games/etc. will follow the examples of
>Betrayal at Krondor (later version with CD music), Entomorph,
>Thunderscape, and Shadows Over Riva and provide *REAL* .wav and/or CD
>music--something everyone can hear with the same great superior
>quality--even if they don't have a big expensive soundcard!
Amen to that!! What a difference, for those of us with Soundblasters.
Desslock
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord wrote:
>
> Desslock wrote:
> >
> > I have to agree. Much as I was disappointed with Ultima 8 (even more
> > so
> > since Ultima 9 is so far, far away), the graphics were good and the
> > sound was outstanding. The General Midi soundtrack is perhaps the
> > best
> > soundtrack I've ever heard. I wish more companies still produced Midi
> > soundtracks (especially now that virtually everyone has a wavetable
> > card)
> >
> > Desslock
>
> as other Ultima games, but it's still a great game--certainly better
> than Diablo (of course, IN MY OPINION.)
I liked Diablo more, although I tend to agree that it's more of an
action game with role-playing elements. I included a definition of a
"role-playing" game in the introduction to my article previewing
upcoming role-playing games for Gamepen (link in my signature if you're
interested).
But I did like Ultima 8, compared to the average computer game, but not
compared to the other Ultimas. Ironically, Ultima 8 was definitely a
"RPG Lite" - very few meaningful NPCs, no ability to choose your
character, very little you could do to differentiate your character --
only a few steps away from being an action game like Diablo, in my
opinion. Definitely a big step away from the designs of the classic
Ultimas.
> But gods--don't say that about MIDI music! I like MIDI music because
> it's so small and easy to handle & use for my PBEM games--and sounds
> decent with Cubic Player--but I--and many, many others out there--do not
> have a wavetable card!!
I appreciate your view, but the majority of gamers out there now have
wavetable cards - pretty much the default card which comes with new
computers is the SB 32 Awe (or better).
There are a lot of things you can do with Midi music as opposed to CD
music -- Midi music you can get to change based upon what's happening in
the game - the music can greatly enhance the gaming experience by being
timed to events in the game - not possible with CD music. Plus that
constant CD ROM access - annoying, and takes CPU power away from the
game, unlike MIDI music.
I wish that gaming companies at least give gamers a choice, as in
Blizzard's Warcraft 2 (definitely not a RPG, hehe). Best of both worlds
- CD and MIDI music.
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord
Dark Knight wrote:
>
> I was about to kiss Cindy Crawford when "Justin A. Hussel, The High
> Toadlord" <hus...@ix.netcom.com> came in and say:
>
> >
> >Nirnaeth wrote:
> >>
> >> Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord wrote:
> >> >
> >> >Aaaa! Why does everyone hate Ultima 8 SOO much? It may not be as
> >> good
> >> >as other Ultima games, but it's still a great game--certainly
> better
> >> >than Diablo (of course, IN MY OPINION.)
>
> I also think it's a great game. I enjoyed it very much.
>
I'm glad to hear at least some one else liked it! 8)
> >>
> >> Haha, you'll "like" Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain, sure.
>
> Blood Omen is an action/adventure. It's in the "Zelda-like" category.
> I have it. It's quite good. But could be a little boring sometime.
> You're right, the voice acting is very good.
Again, probably something I'd do well to check out--I love good
voice-acting, and I enjoyed the Zelda games. The only part of Blood
Omen that SLIGHTLY turns me off is the vampire factor--I like evil and
undead, I just don't particularly care for vampires... Anyway, I have
the demo--I'll be sure to play it thoroughly before I ever buy the full
version... Thanks for your input on the subject.
HS Simpson
>Love it or hate it, Diablo has introduced a whole new group of gamers
>to CRPGs, some of who will want more depth that Diablo offered.
Typo alert:
Phrase should be: "...some of whom will want more depth than Diablo
offered."
jason kraftcheck
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord wrote:
>
>
> Aaaa! Why does everyone hate Ultima 8 SOO much? It may not be as good
> as other Ultima games, but it's still a great game--certainly better
> than Diablo (of course, IN MY OPINION.)
>
> But gods--don't say that about MIDI music! I like MIDI music because
> it's so small and easy to handle & use for my PBEM games--and sounds
> decent with Cubic Player--but I--and many, many others out there--do not
> have a wavetable card!! Personally, I'm always overjoyed when I find
> that a game has REAL CD music or .WAV music--I even know a lot of people
> who have great wavetable cards but still prefer CD and .WAV music to
> midi's!
>
> I for one hope more companies/games/etc. will follow the examples of
> Betrayal at Krondor (later version with CD music), Entomorph,
> Thunderscape, and Shadows Over Riva and provide *REAL* .wav and/or CD
> music--something everyone can hear with the same great superior
> quality--even if they don't have a big expensive soundcard!
>
> ....Justin A. Hussel
> The High Toadlord
You probably won't see many more games with CD music. The problem is
that the music gets interupted if the game needs other info off of the
CD. Notice that BAK was playable without the CD. The CD was *only*
used for music.
jason
George Weller
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord (hus...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: Marcus Reid wrote:
: >
: > It's been a while since my last RPG (World of XEEN) and it's about time
: > for another one. What's the best current RPG? I like games that have
: > a good amount of depth to them, ones with a real feel to them that makes
: > you look back on them and wish for a sequel. TIA.
: The Ultima series--particularly Ultima 7, Ultima 7 Part 2, and Ultima 8.
: You can get the Complete Ultima 7 for about $10 in most stores, and
: Ultima 8 for around the same price. Unfortunatley, there aren't really
: any other CRPG's out there like World of Xeen (try Might and Magic III,
: II, and--if you can stand the CGA graphics--even I) if you haven't.
: There are two shareware games that are also very Might and
: Magic-like--Yendor 2 and 3. Just do a search on the internet and you'll
: find shareware versions. (If you can't find 'em, tell me and I'll give
: you an HTTP address--I'm just too lazy to look one up now.) Also,
: there's always the Wizardry series (mainly 6 and 7), though the
: excessive combat has always bothered me more than a bit...
Ultima 7 Part 2 is the best in my opinion. I liked Ultima 7 too, but the
story and the game in Part 2 just blew me away. Part 2 also was quite a
bit more difficult than Part 1.
Even though I have played all Ultimas, I still haven't touched Ultima 8.
I was too dissappointed with that game. It seems the Avatar became a
contradiction to everything he was in the past, he became a liar, a
murderer, etc. I also liked having the group of followers. I think I'm
going to try to finish it just for the sake of completing all Ultimas
before Ultima 9 comes out.
DcD
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord
jason kraftcheck wrote:
> You probably won't see many more games with CD music. The problem is
> that the music gets interupted if the game needs other info off of the
> CD. Notice that BAK was playable without the CD. The CD was *only*
> used for music.
>
> jason
Well, you can beleive and or hope what you want, but personally I'll
continue to hope, beleive (and pray to Lillian) more games WILL use CD
music (I love getting a game & a music cd!), or at the very least .wav
music. Shadows Over Riva uses CD music, and it's gotten great reviews in
the music area for that. Even Betrayal at Antara uses .WAV music rather
than MIDI music. I've already stated that I've read quotes from many
game and game music designers (such as those of Phantasmagoria, even
though that's an adventure game of course) stating they hoped their
company/series/etc. would never go back to MIDI music. I love MIDI
music by itself--because I can play it with Cubic Player--but as far as
game's go, I hope to the toad gods more games will be released with .wav
and MIDI music. I've seen games sensible enough to loop the CD
tracks--extremely long breaks aren't necessary as I understand it. And
even if they are, they're no more or less annoying than the breaks in
the MIDI music in Ultima 7, Ultima 7 Part 2, and Ultima Online.
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord
louise wrote:
>
> On Tue, 02 Sep 1997 14:46:01 -0400, "Justin A. Hussel, The High
> Toadlord" <hus...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >louise wrote:
> >>
> >> On Mon, 01 Sep 1997 09:22:39 -0400, "Justin A. Hussel, The High
> >> Toadlord" <hus...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >I definately agree--Ultima 7 and Ultima 7 Part 2 are my all-time
> >> >favorite CRPG's.
> >>
> >> Me too! Although the game I am currently playing, Daggerfall, is a
> lot
> >> of fun also.
> >
> >I'm always glad to hear from somone who agrees Ultima 7 was one of
> the
> >best CRPG's of all time--especially after wasting an hour writing a
> >reply to someone who dares to say Ultima 7 isn't even an RPG and
> >Daggerfall is! Jeeze...
>
> How could they say that! Well, I guess we all see things differently.
> Whatever Ultima 7 is, that's what I most like to play. And I also like
> to play the kind of game that Daggerfall happens to be.
Yeah, I agree--I loved Ultima 7, and I enjoyed Daggerfall for a while
(and probably will when I get the patience to go back to it and finish
it one day.) Actually, above I meant to say "...dares to say Ultima 7
isn't even an RPG and DIABLO is!", which changes the meaning a bit! 8)
Again, I like to think CRPG's are my favorite, but whether or not a game
is actually considered a CRPG isn't what makes me decide whether I like
it or not--basically, it's if I have fun playing it or not, which
generally boils down to whether or not it has a good story...
Daggerfall's a decent game, though it needs drastic improvements IMHO,
and is somewhat of a dissapointment after all Bethesda promised...
Ultima 7, on the other hand, IMHO, is one of the best games (CRPG or
otherwise) of all time.
> >> >I, however, actually enjoyed Ultima 8 ALMOST as much,
> >> >though I know most Ultima-fans didn't.
>
> Really? Wow.
Yep. I actually heard from ONE other CRPG'er who seemed to enjoy Ultima
8 as much as I did! Astounding, huh? ;P
> >>
> >> AAAAAAAAGH!!!! With all respect for your opinion as an individual,
> how
> >> can you *possibly* have enjoyed Ultima 8 almost as much?
> >
> >Well, since you respected my opinion I'll give you the same
> >respect--I'll just say again that in my view, Ultima 8 was a very
> >enjoyable game. The story wasn't as long and detailed, but it was
> >well-developed and it DID continue the Ultima saga--and in my
> opinion,
> >though the view took a while to get used to, it did have the best
> >graphics and definately the best music and sound of any Ultima game
> to
> >date.
>
> Possibly my problem with Ultima 8 was more or less unique... After
> playing and loving Ultima 7 for some time, I found myself in the
> situation of having only one RPG installed on my computer for months,
> because I got separated from my software during a move.
Ultima 8 was actually the first PC game I ever played (after FINALLY
switching from my good old Commodore 64)--I was impressed with graphics
and sound, but after a while, I grew very frustrated with the game play
and gave up. I didn't go back to it for at least another year, after
I'd finished Ultima 7 and Ultima 7 Part 2, and then I had the patch...
And THEN I actually enjoyed Ultima 8 ALMOST as much as I enjoyed the
Ultima 7s...
>Anyway, having
> nothing but Ultima 8 available to me was sheer hell. It seemed so much
> *harder* to me than Ultima 7, even after getting the patch.
In the action aspect, you're right... But I enjoy a good challenge once
in a while--it even gives me some degree of satisifaction knowing I
actually completed such a difficult game! ;) But again, I enjoyed it,
and if I had more time to play games, I'd probably go back and play it
through again... I especially loved the character animation,
particularly in the few 'cinema-type scenes' such as the execution and
the battle of Tempests on the docks... "There can be only one Tempest!"
(I thought it was only one Immmortal? ;) )
>And, I
> didn't feel like there was much of anything interesting to explore.
I agree there could have been more, but what there was I enjoyed
exploring a lot--the graphics and atmosphere were, again, were stunning,
IMHO. Greater variation, etc. would have been nice, but what there was
I enjoyed...
> I
> never did get used to the diagonal graphics, for some reason. I missed
> my buddy Iolo. The country and cities are not as *beautiful* as in
> Ultima 7.
Yeah, I missed 'em too, but the abscense of the avatar's allies was
essential to the story! The whole basis was that the Guardian exiled
him to a world he'd already conquered in the past! So no, Pagan wasn't
as 'pleasantly beautiful'--it was dark and evil and gloomy--just the
kind of world the story called for! It was exotic, at least, and
definately had a unique atmosphere... Again in my opinion.
>I even liked training in the arena in the center of town. It
> was so nifty to go down into the basement of the inn near town, and
> discover all the switches and caverns and so on.
Again, I agree Ultima 8 could have done with a bit more of this kind of
thing... But I still loved both (or rather all Ultima) games...
> Now that's a pretty
> stupid thing to get nostalgic about, I agree. Floating through the ice
> bergs on our raft in Ultima 7 was the only thing that I found at all
> similar to Ultima 8 in aggravation level.
Again, once I installed the patch, I really didn't find the game that
aggravating...
>
> >> The patch made the game possible to play, but then (IMO) one finds
> >> that the game itself is basically uninteresting and entirely
> trivial
> >> in comparison with Ultima 7. It was so *lame*!!!!
> >
> >Again, you're entitled to your opinion... I really didn't think it
> was
> >lame at all... Just that it needed a little more story and a larger
> >world... And it did have a very similar feel to the rest of the
> Ultima
> >games in many respects...
>
> I probably would have liked it a lot, if I hadn't expected so much
> after Ultima 7, I suppose.
I guess I can understand that, though Ultima 7 is what MADE ME enjoy
Ultima 8--I just had to see the continuation of the Avatar's story.
> I withdraw the "It was so *lame*!!!!" and
> will substitute, "In my opinion, it wasn't as much fun."
That's more understandable. ;)
>Maybe the
> intricacy and elaborate worlds of Ultima 7 (and also of Daggerfall)
> are what I enjoy so much about them.
Of Daggerfall? Oh well, you're entitled to your opinion... The
Daggerfall world is huge, and definately has the frame of some good,
elaborate detail... But IMHO, it still lacks... Let's just say, much.
(Maybe you'll agree more after playing for a few weeks)
> >> I'm glad you did. Honestly. But I'd like to know what universe you
> >> happen to reside in... in my universe, Ultima 8 was a rip-off that
> was
> >> not worthy of being included as part of the Ultima series.
> >
> >Once again, your opinion.
>
> Absolutely. IMO. I got a teensy bit carried away... but I felt like
> Ultima 8 was almost on the level of a bad joke, IMO.
>
> >I hated Ultima 8 before I installed the patch
> >and before I played Ultima 7 and 7 Part 2--but after I played and
> >enjoyed U7 and U7pt2 so much, I just HAD to finish my Ultima (story
> and
> >game) experience with Ultima 8!
>
> :) I know just exactly how you felt! Only for me, I played Ultima 7
> and 7 Part 2 over and over and over... Sometimes I just wandered about
> exploring and looking for hidden treasures and neat places that I
> missed the first time through.
I know a lot of people enjoy doing that, but I very rarely do... Partly
because once I'm done with the main story, I don't usually care that
much about extra things... But mainly because I have too many other
RPG's I feel obligated to finish to have time for that... ;) (Really,
half of the time, I feel more like playing CRPG's is a job than a
hobby/pass-time... 8/
> >I enjoyed it very much, and I really
> >wish more people did: Though I'm glad Ultima 9 is going into a
> >different direction,
>
> Do you believe there will be an Ultima 9? I have heard people talk
> about it for a long time, but I do not know if it will ever be
> finished or not. (Seems like forever, doesn't it).
I *KNOW* there will be an Ultima 9! It may be a while, but I know it'll
be out--I don't think I've ever heard of any company--especially
Origin--promising a game and providing so much detail on it and then not
releasing it! Haven't you seen reviews in magazines and/or read the
Ultima 9 FAQ? Well, I'd guess either you haven't or you're just the
really pessimistic and skeptical type! ;) Either way--I know they'll be
an Ultima 9... I just wish I didn't have to wait so long for it! ;/
> >I would've liked to see the add-on to Ultima 8 and
> >even more CRPG's (though maybe not more Ultima games) done with the
> U8
> >engine (other than Crusader.)
>
> Have you ever played Ultima 6? Somebody told me that was almost as
> good as Ultima 7, so I'm trying to decide whether to play Ultima 6,
> Arena, or Diablo after Daggerfall.
I'd advise Ultima 6! It's a great game--I guess I'd have to say almost
as good as seven, though I haven't yet taken the time to finish it--I
first played it on an old Commodore 64 (I'd been searching for it for
ages--I bought it once and had to return it because it didn't work...
Then I finally found it a few years later in a catologue.
Unfortunatley, though, the Commodore version is (obviously) incredibly
slow... And it requires more disk flipping than any game in existence!
I'm talking EVERY bloody time you talk to an NPC!!) Anyway, eventually
I got it for the IBM, and I must say I was impressed by the graphics and
sound... It has a very similar feel to Ultima 7, and is probably the
best Ultima besides the 7's (and, to me, other than 8) So, if you can
get your hands on a copy, play Ultima 6! If you really enjoy Daggerfall
that much, you might wanna try Arena... I actually kind of like it
better than Daggerfall--the NPC's are a LITTLE more 'realistic' (they at
least say a little blurb about who they are and what they do when you
talk to them), and the dungeon delving isn't quite as insane... Some of
the city graphics are even (in my opinion) better (street venders,
etc.) As for Diablo... Well, I'm sure you've already heard plenty about
this game, especially if you've been reading this group for long, so
I'll just say... It's probably last on the list of "CRPG's" I'd EVER
suggest to anyone... But if you're looking for an ACTION game with great
sound, music, and graphics and SOME RPG aspects--go ahead and try
Diablo--just don't expect an awsome RPG that'll keep you involved for
days or weeks... I grew tired of it in about a week, and still haven't
finished it... 8(
> >> >I only wish the world of Pagan was larger (with more cities and
> >> NPC's).
> >>
> >> Well, that would be a start, I suppose. There was a lot more than
> this
> >> missing from the game (like nearly everything).
> >
> >Like what? Really, I'm interested to hear--I'm really shocked--I
> never
> >talked/wrote to anyone who thought Ultima 8 was THIS bad... I can see
> >its faults and even understand many of the views of those who dislike
> >it, but I fail to see how one can really beleive it's as bad as you
> seem
> >to think it is! Oh well... Once again: Everyone's entitlted to
> >opinions, tastes, and preferences...
>
> Thanks for your open-minded attitude. After reading what you said, I
> thought about it, and decided maybe I wasn't being completely
> objective (see explanation above). It would have been nice if the
> world were bigger, it is true. But, well, even the world provided
> seemed less realistic, and less intricate as well, with fewer things
> in it and fewer secrets to explore.
I understand your point, but I still don't completely agree--I thought
the Ultima 8 world was very intricate and realistic--just different than
the other Ultima worlds and smaller! You also have to remember Ultima 8
is the first Ultima not set in Brittainia since Ultima 3... So when you
talk about how intricate, well-developed, etc. Brittainia is, you have
to remember we're talking around 8 or 9 years (4 games) of
development... Britainia's been around since Ultima 4: Pagan was newly
created for Ultima 8...
>I felt like the game was set up so
> that you could beat your head against a wall doing what they wanted
> you to do, or you could do... well... a few other things but not a
> whole lot else. The incredibly elaborate world provided by Ultima 7
> allows a certain intense feeling of freedom that I didn't get at all
> in Ultima 8. Ultima 8 felt almost like going to work. :)
> Pardon the non-technical analysis... on reflection, it's the only way
> I can answer your question completely honestly.
Again, I respect your opinion and even see your point to a certain
degree--And I DO agree Ultima 7 was much better and more elaborate
(game-play wise and world detail-wise) than Ultima 8... But I still
think Ultima 8 was a great game... But I know what you mean with the
'playing felt almost like going to work' similie. Unfortunately, that's
what almost ALL games feel like to me at certain times, or at a certain
point. Even though I loved Ultima 7 Part 2, for instance, it was
actually starting to annoy me after a while sometime around the time 95%
of Serpent Isle died... Not because the rest of the game wasn't fun, but
because I just felt like I'd been playing the game for too long and kept
remembering I had so many other games I had to play and beat... I
guess that's just the curse of someone idiotic enough to spend hundreds
of dollars buying just about every CRPG that's been released in the last
5 years... :/ {Sigh} (That's partly why I have so many unfinished
games--when I get stuck or bored with a game, I generally just move on
to another rather than stick to the one I've been playing and finish
it. Sometimes I wish I DID have just one CRPG to play at a time...
> >
> >And have you EVER played an overview RPG with better graphics and
> sound?
> >I wonder if you even like new age/fantasy style music at all...
>
> Yes, but not the same catchy music over, and over, and over, and ....
So what games have you enjoyed the music in? (You don't have to reply
just to answer this question--but if you do you can answer it if you
want. ;) Personally, I enjoyed the Ultima 8 music, even with my little
stinky soundcard... Basically, ALL game music get's a little monotenous
at a certain point simply because of its nature. That's the one good
thing about music that plays with long gaps (like the Ultima 7 music), I
suppose... It takes longer for the music to get monotenous. ...So the
Daggerfall music doesn't bother you?
> >That's
> >really the one thing that bothered me about Ultima 7 and U7p2 (and
> even
> >Ultima Online)--the lack of continual music and sound!
>
> I really liked that. Then, when the music starts, it's so welcome and
> sounds so good to me. Well, each to his own.
Yep, to each his own. Then I guess you wouldn't be one of those
complaining about the gaps of silence in games with CD music? I always
hate gaps of silence... Like I said, I like music to ALWAYS be
playing... I just prefer it if there's a LARGE VARIETY of music so it
doesn't end up growing monotenous... (But it's really almost impossible
for any game music to ever really annoy me as much as you claim the
Ultima 8 music annoyed you...)
>In real life, I don't
> generally play music all the time, and I know a lot of people do.
Well, I'm one of those people who always has to have sound. I'll always
either have the TV or music on (especially when I'm writing--mood music
helps me write--I even have a sort of huge 'unnofical soundtrack' for
the book I'm writing--I play scene-specific music in the background
while I'm writing or re-reading scenes. ;) )
I hate silence. I never really cared for music in the past, but ever
since I bought my first New Age CD's... I've decided: You get enough
silence when you're asleep and when you're dead--no need to have it when
you're awake! ;P (I actually used to have music or the TV on even when I
went to sleep)
> >What music there was was great--
>
> Yes, it was!!! :)
Would've been even better if I had a Wavetable soundcard. {Sigh} Oh
well... At least I get to hear what it WOULD have sounded like with a
good card with my wavetable emulator thingie and Cubic Player with Gus
Samples...
>
> >but it was too sporatic! Me: I prefer constant
> >background music and sound... Even with my stinky soundblaster
> card...
>
> That's what I've got too. It works. Maybe these other people are
> right, and I would have liked the music better with a better card; but
> then maybe I would have liked the music to a lot of games better!
Probably. But since I spent a decade playing Nintendo, Gameboy, C64 (and
eventually SNES, which has better sound of course) games before I got a
PC, it takes REALLY bad game music to annoy me... I liked game music
before I liked New Age music--or any other kind of music. ;)
> Right now, replacing my sound card is pretty far down on my list.
Ditto--though not really by choice. In another year or so, though, I
should have a good sound card...
> Thanks for the interesting and patient response!
NP, and thanks for yours! Sorry it took me so long to respond to this
one... Ever since I started reading and replying to threads in the CRPG
newsgroup regularly a week or so ago, I've been spending too much
time... Well, doing just that! If you haven't guessed already, I tend
to be a little wordy... Especially in newsgroup discussions and e-mails.
;)
Farewell,
Justin A. Hussel
The High Toadlord
---
THE HIGH
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Chosen One of the Great Prophecy of Deisha, Champion and Ruler of
Manondia,Chosen of Lillian, Samarian, Ossira, and Hoopy, Honorary
Member of the Circle of Wizards and the Council of Nothing,
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-=UDIC=- The High Toadlord DRAGON
____________________________________________________________
Led Mirage
In article <340D79...@interlog.com>, dess...@interlog.com says...
>But I did like Ultima 8, compared to the average computer game, but not
>compared to the other Ultimas. Ironically, Ultima 8 was definitely a
>"RPG Lite" - very few meaningful NPCs, no ability to choose your
>character, very little you could do to differentiate your character --
>only a few steps away from being an action game like Diablo, in my
>opinion. Definitely a big step away from the designs of the classic
>Ultimas.
As I've said before, if Origin upgrades the graphics to SVGA, gives it s
different name/premise, I'm pretty sure they'd sell a lot of them. Maybe not
Diablo numbers (no multi-player/Battle.net), but should be a heck of a lot
more than as U8 and not as much backlash.
>There are a lot of things you can do with Midi music as opposed to CD
>music -- Midi music you can get to change based upon what's happening in
>the game - the music can greatly enhance the gaming experience by being
>timed to events in the game - not possible with CD music. Plus that
>constant CD ROM access - annoying, and takes CPU power away from the
>game, unlike MIDI music.
Not to mention audio quality. CD-ROM drives have piss poor audio components,
thus resulting in very poor quality sound. You probably won't notice the
difference in dinky speakers, but when you hook your system up to decent hifi,
you can definitely tell the difference. Also, a lot of the developers simply
put the recording straight from their SCC-1 to the CD. Heck, my Yamaha DB
might not rival the SCC-1 in GM quality (but man, you shoulda listen to
original music that takes advantage of XG), its at least the second best. So
for me, in a lot of cases, Redbook audio is actually a step back.
>I wish that gaming companies at least give gamers a choice, as in
>Blizzard's Warcraft 2 (definitely not a RPG, hehe). Best of both worlds
>- CD and MIDI music.
Yup, New World and Adeline do that as well.
Håvard Fridheim
On 10 Sep 1997 04:35:27 EDT, lmi...@io.org (Led Mirage) wrote:
(About Ultima 8)
>As I've said before, if Origin upgrades the graphics to SVGA, gives it s
>different name/premise, I'm pretty sure they'd sell a lot of them. Maybe not
>Diablo numbers (no multi-player/Battle.net), but should be a heck of a lot
>more than as U8 and not as much backlash.
They did. Crusader: No remorse and Crusader: No regret
- -
Håvard Fridheim
Howard Dragon
-==UDIC==-
Michael J. Solomon
>>I wish that gaming companies at least give gamers a choice, as in
>>Blizzard's Warcraft 2 (definitely not a RPG, hehe). Best of both worlds
>>- CD and MIDI music.
>
>Yup, New World and Adeline do that as well.
Don't forget WAV\MOD or whatever format digital music is in. I prefer
digital over the other formats only when it sounds 'clean' or clear.
Listen to Stonekeep or Conquest of the New World from Interplay. Both
of these games use digital sound for the music at least in the intro.
It sounded like they recorded it at 44.1 16-bit. It sounds pretty
good. I mean the clarity, not the music itself. I am playing Lords of
the Realm 2 right now. It uses digital music throughout. Unfortunately
it sounds like they recorded it at 11 khz and 8-bit. The quality is
poor despite the fact that I like the tunes. If digital music can be
used throughout with good clarity, I would prefer it over Midi or
CD-Audio. It can be almost as dynamic as midi music, and you are still
hearing 'real' music. Although, I am unsure of the strain digital
music puts on the CPU.
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord
Michael J. Solomon wrote:
>
> >>I wish that gaming companies at least give gamers a choice, as in
ALMOST as dynamic? Well, I agree with everything you say until here...
With DIGITAL music you can do ANYTHING--including things that are nearly
impossible in MIDIs and difficult in MODS: choral voices, lyrics, etc.
Though I enjoy and collect MIDI music, I'll ALWAYS prefer digital and CD
music to MIDI music in the games I play, regardless of the quality of
any future sound cards I obtain...
Michael J. Solomon
>>It can be almost as dynamic as midi music,
>
>ALMOST as dynamic? Well, I agree with everything you say until here...
Point taken. Not sure why I said almost. I'll just call it a typo. :)
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord
He he... That makes more sense, then. 8)
Nirnaeth
And with beautifull non-cd-audio music...
Rick Cortese
jmo...@ix.netcom.com wrote in article <340B5D...@ix.netcom.com>...
>
> TSandrich wrote:
> >
> > I gotta say that Ultima7 was (to me) a boring, unplayable mess. The
> > characters are constantly whining for food, combat is really
unmanageable,
> > the magic system is overly difficult and the Avatar is an empty shell.
I
<snip>
> U7 is a game that you really have to stick with in order to love.
> Diablo, as I said has great graphics amd sound but was empty in terms of
> a story. There was nobody to talk to it was just --- hack---slash--pick
It's funny to me because: Lost my first install of Ultima 7 when a hard
drive went south & my install disk #4 joined it. But I bought another copy
because by that time the game was deeply discounted. Pretty much the same
story with file corruption/install disks failing, but "The Complete Ultima
7" on CD came out so I have my 3rd legitimate copy of Ultima 7 installed.
Still wander around from time to time. But the nags about food make me have
a tendancy to wander w/o Iolo. The funny part is I have 100s of hours of
game time, but I still haven't finished it. Even went so far as to get a
walk through so I could, but once I started wandering around again I just
ignored the walk through. Still a pain in the butt, I use a DR DOS 6.0 boot
floppy since that gives me the most free mem & the sound drivers never seem
to work right due to PnP setting the interupts where U7 can't find them. I
still don't feel the need to finish the game, but I will probably continue
playing off & on for the rest of my life.
Here's a rhetorical question: Of all the people who bought U7, what
percentage do you think actually finished it? My guess would be less then
1%. All my family & friends that have tried get frustrated after 4 hours or
so.
Of course Diablo does not have a complicated story. One of the things
people seem to forget is it was designed such that you could complete the
game in a single on line session. This is calculated feature of the game,
not a design flaw. You aren't going to have the time to sail to different
islands & talk to hundreds of people in the time between [end of work day,
start of sleep]. Look for any quests in UOL to follow the same pattern. You
can't have long quest in multiplayer. You may have a lot of small ones, but
the epic adventures do not lend themselves to this format.
The mass of people out there buying games just won't spend hundreds of
hours in a long game like U7. I would guess at least 1/2 of the readers of
this newsgroup have tried Diablo for the most part enjoy it for what it is.
It's unfortunate that the other part of the market will probably be the
ones that determine the future of CRPGs, but they do probably represent 90%
of potential sales. While for the most part we can play shorter games, that
90% does not seem to be particularily interested in games like U7. IMO most
of our hope for longer games will come from people exposed to CRPGs through
shorter games/quests like they will find in Diablo or UOL, then making the
conversion to longer more detailed games. This should expand the market
base to the point where such games are financially viable.
Rick
LM
> > > I gotta say that Ultima7 was (to me) a boring, unplayable mess.
Lets put it this way: perhaps you're not a rpg lover or maybe you didn't
take the time to get used to walking around in Ultima 7, or maybe you're
too young to play it. I firmly believe Ultima 7 like most other pc-games
(except for shooters like Doom or TV) are made for adults. The fact is
Ultima 7 with a very few other rpgs are considered not by me alone but by
all professional gamers and critics as one of the best in its genre, an all
time classic.
> Here's a rhetorical question: Of all the people who bought U7, what
> percentage do you think actually finished it? My guess would be less
then
> 1%.
I played it and finished it in my first try. Took me about 2 weeks and I
was totally involved. Loved it to death, wish there were many more games
with such a rich story line.
> Of course Diablo does not have a complicated story.
Diablo is by no means a RPG. Diablo is an action game with RPG elements,
just like Heroes of Might and Magic is strategy with RPG elements.
Certainly there's nothing complicated about Diablo. What could possibly be
complicated in a "shooter"? As an action game Diablo is fun, really spend
lots of good time on it. As a RPG it's a total disaster, true garbage. I
guess it all ends up in two factors: your age and your favorite genre.
TSandrich
>Lets put it this way: perhaps you're not a rpg lover or maybe you didn't
>take the time to get used to walking around in Ultima 7, or maybe you're
>too young to play it. I firmly believe Ultima 7 like most other pc-games
>(except for shooters like Doom or TV) are made for adults. The fact is
>Ultima 7 with a very few other rpgs are considered not by me alone but by
>all professional gamers and critics as one of the best in its genre, an all
>time classic.
>
and since "all professional gamers and critics" consider it to be one of
the best in its genre, I'm not allowed to have a dissenting opinion. By
the way, what are" professional gamers"?
How do you earn a living playing RPG's?
What I'm trying to communicate is that your argument is ridiculous. Just
because many people enjoyed U7 does not make it a great game. You are
basing your argument on other authorities and I'm afraid that I don't need
anyone, professional or not, to tell me what I enjoyed. Ultima7 clearly
has its flaws, including a need to feed each character all the time, a
save/reload that thrashes the hard drive, an avatar that can steal at
anytime, a combat system that often has characters running off the fight
creatures far away or behind walls, or instead standing around watching.
The world of U7 is large and the game is very pretty, but I found it to be
very difficult to enjoy. I have played many RPG's and enjoyed many of them
like, Wiz6 and 7, the Might and Magics, Lands of Lore, Menzoberranzan, Dark
Suns, Eye of the Beholders.... just because I find the Ultima games lacking
does not mean that I'm too young or inexperienced.
Maybe you have more experience with games but perhaps you need some
experience with constructing an argument that doesn't rely on authority to
be convincing.
TSandrich
RpgTrader
>Here's a rhetorical question: Of all the people who bought U7, what
>percentage do you think actually finished it? My guess would be less then
>so.
Ultima 7 was the first RPG I ever played on a PC (before that I only had a
Commodore), and only the second game I installed. I set it up just to make
sure it worked, but ended up playing it religiously day and night until I
finished it.
Complicated? Combat is one keypress (C). NPCs lead you by the nose through
the whole plot. It was the first RPG I played through completely with no
interruption at all.
RpgTrader
>As for you not having any companions, my
>experience with U8 npcs is that most think I'm some sort of freak and or
>false prophet. Put yourself in their place. How many of you would risk
>your livee to follow some heretical pagan (the avatar) who's main
>concern is to escape your world (a seemingly impossible feat) and to
>preach some bull about virtues while showing no respect for the local
>powers or deities (a virtual death wish.)
That all sounds good and makes sense, but it doesn't gibe too well with
the screenshots Origin put out, showing the Avatar with a party. Bethesda
did the same thing with Arena. These important gameplay decisions have
nothing to do with the backstory and a lot more to do with
"Hey boss, we can't get this part to work.."
"Oh well, Just cut that part out and ship it."
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord
Really?? I never saw those screen shots... They certainly weren't on the
box, at least. Oh well... I still liked Ultima 8, and agree that the
story actually works better without party members... Though of course a
larger world and party members woulded have added much greater depth to
the game... I'm not really sure how it would have worked--they would
have had to take a lot of emphasis off of the action, probably, but of
course that would have been a good thing...
RpgTrader
>Really?? I never saw those screen shots... They certainly weren't on the
>box, at least. Oh well... I still liked Ultima 8, and agree that the
>story actually works better without party members... Though of course a
>larger world and party members woulded have added much greater depth to
>the game... I'm not really sure how it would have worked--they would
>have had to take a lot of emphasis off of the action, probably, but of
>course that would have been a good thing...
Origin likes to play fast and loose with screenshots, even on the box (a
la the original version of Wing Commander). Unfortunately, this can really
screw you up even after you've bought the game. It was lame enough, IMHO,
that the Cantra storyline was never resolved in Serpent Isle, but the
screenshots on the back compounded the aggravation when I realized that
none of those characters would ever be in my party (well, without the hack
mover, anyway). I would have just forgotten about some of those loose ends
if the back of the box didn't keep bringing them back up...
Justin A. Hussel, The High Toadlord
RpgTrader wrote:
> Origin likes to play fast and loose with screenshots, even on the box (a
> la the original version of Wing Commander). Unfortunately, this can really
> screw you up even after you've bought the game. It was lame enough, IMHO,
> that the Cantra storyline was never resolved in Serpent Isle
Yeah, that's the one thing that bugged the crap out of me as well... 8(
>, but the
> screenshots on the back compounded the aggravation when I realized that
> none of those characters would ever be in my party (well, without the hack
> mover, anyway).
Which box was this on? (And what were they?) I never saw them...
--
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
O O Justin A. Hussel
.. The High Toadlord
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