Will we ever see Ultima X?
Gray Death
people's mouths, but that was 10 years ago. Is it time for a fresh
start? If it was done properly, then surely it would sell very well
given its fanbase, history and brand power? Are they sitting on a
gold mine, or is that just nostalgia blinding me?
Look at EA's Need for Speed franchise, it was an absolute mess, but
they outsourced the game to a studio who specializes in racing games,
and the end result was NFS: Shift - critically and commercially well
received. Why can't EA do that with the Ultima series?
Sorry for the random thoughts, it's something I've been thinking about
for a couple of years. I'm a fan of the Gothic series, which is a
Euro-esque Ultima... and after playing Risen and even Two Worlds a
couple of years ago, I just have to ask: Why no Ultima X?
Trimble Bracegirdle
But I was never into the previous ULTIMA's so had no expectations to
be upset .
It is cursed the same way as e.g.. the THIEF & DUES EX games are
by the original Fans hating (& they really Hate !) the later titles .
& hold themselves ever watchful to SAVAGE ! (Totally) any new release.
Whilst the late comers like the prospect of a new release but must stay
quiet
with there supposed ignorance of the "Great Tradition & True Routes"
Commercially its doomed.
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(") mouse (What's 'Whilst' !!??)
Florian Schaetz
> I have& like (Duck !) ULTIMA IX ...It still looks& plays OK .
> But I was never into the previous ULTIMA's so had no expectations to
> be upset .
Many fans felt, that Ultima IX wasn't really Ultima, because so many
things simply didn't fit into the established universe...
But yes, I would really like to have an Ultima X, if it was more true to
Ultima 7 and below instead of stepping into Ultima IX's footsteps.
> It is cursed the same way as e.g.. the THIEF& DUES EX games are
> by the original Fans hating (& they really Hate !) the later titles .
Really? Personally, I like all three parts of Thief, but especially the
2nd (Steampunk-Fan) - and the Cradle from Part 3 is still the best level
of all Thief games :-)
Flo
Kyle Haight
Trimble Bracegirdle <no-...@never.spam> wrote:
>
>It is cursed the same way as e.g.. the THIEF & DEUS EX games are
>by the original Fans hating (& they really Hate !) the later titles .
>Commercially it's doomed.
I don't know. All the 'old school' fan hatred of Fallout 3 didn't
prevent it from becoming a major critical and commercial success. For
that matter, Thief 4 and Deus Ex 3 are both currently under development.
One could only wish that Ultima suffered from the same 'curse'.
--
Kyle Haight
Ross Ridge
>I know the whole Ultima IX thing left a sour taste in a lot of
>people's mouths, but that was 10 years ago. Is it time for a fresh
>start? If it was done properly, then surely it would sell very well
>given its fanbase, history and brand power? Are they sitting on a
>gold mine, or is that just nostalgia blinding me?
I think the Ultima series has mainly been forgetten now, and the part
of series that people do have nostalgia for, Ultima VII and earier, just
aren't the sort of game you can make on the PC these days. On the other
hand, EA still continues to run and produce expansions for Ultima Online,
so you can't say that franchise is dead.
>Look at EA's Need for Speed franchise, it was an absolute mess, but
>they outsourced the game to a studio who specializes in racing games,
>and the end result was NFS: Shift - critically and commercially well
>received. Why can't EA do that with the Ultima series?
EA already has a studio that specializes in RPGs like Ultima,
BioWare/Mythic. It's basically up to Ray Muzyka if they want to do
anything in the single player realm with the Ultima IP, and I doubt he's
going to think it would be a better idea than working on Mass Effect 3
or the next Dragon Age game. Maybe some iPhone game with 2D top down
graphics like the good ol' Ultimas.
>Sorry for the random thoughts, it's something I've been thinking about
>for a couple of years. I'm a fan of the Gothic series, which is a
>Euro-esque Ultima... and after playing Risen and even Two Worlds a
>couple of years ago, I just have to ask: Why no Ultima X?
Meh. There'll more Gothic-like games.
Ross Ridge
--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rri...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rridge/
db //
Werner Punz
> I have & like (Duck !) ULTIMA IX ...It still looks & plays OK .
> But I was never into the previous ULTIMA's so had no expectations to
> be upset .
>
not know what was going on he was so deeply entrenched with corporate
politics of EA that he was not the wachful eye over the project.
As it seems from what I could gather from the net, the team who finally
did U9 was not too familiar with the franchise either, and add
additionally to it, that EA wanted to rush the game out after it has
been on hiatus for so many years, started over and then abandoned again.
The main issue however was that people were promised an Ultima 7 in 3d,
the first approach was in fact a top down U7 3d approach, and pretty
much everyone would have been happy.
Well for the final U9 what was promised in the end was a world as big as
U7 but in 3d, well they did not deliver and to the worse due to Garriots
abundance in the projects management there were so many continuity
errors that it smacked the old time fans on the head, which were quite
vocal at that time.
It probably was a nice game in itself, but it only ran on the already
aging Voodoo cards well, the DirectX cards mostly could not handle it,
and the game was rushed out and had bugs (well also normal at that time)
The main issue, simply was that it was branded as Ultima 9 if it had
been a sidegame like the Underworlds probably no one would have bothered
(but the Underworlds however were the better games in every respect)
> It is cursed the same way as e.g.. the THIEF & DUES EX games are
> by the original Fans hating (& they really Hate !) the later titles .
> & hold themselves ever watchful to SAVAGE ! (Totally) any new release.
> Whilst the late comers like the prospect of a new release but must stay
> quiet
> with there supposed ignorance of the "Great Tradition & True Routes"
> Commercially its doomed.
> (\__/)
Actually I am a big fan of the Thief brand, and I personally found that
Thief 3 to be superior
to the original ones, however I was not particularily a friend of the
mission based design which broke continuity and the huge levels in the
first place. For me the RPGish approach Thief3 followed was way better.
But Thief3 simply had the problem of being in the backwaters of Deus Ex
2, without it it probably would have been a success, but Deus Ex2 killed
basically both franchises, and given the steamed warmwater approach of
making the games more approachable by the general masses, I do not have
high hopes for their sequels.
At least for Deus Ex the developers again do not get it for Deus Ex3,
they want to cut down on the simulation aspects of part1 and want to
make it more of an action game, exactly the route where Deus Ex2 already
made the fans cry!
Not sure what will happen regarding Thief however!
Werner Punz
> Gray Death <gdea...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I know the whole Ultima IX thing left a sour taste in a lot of
>> people's mouths, but that was 10 years ago. Is it time for a fresh
>> start? If it was done properly, then surely it would sell very well
>> given its fanbase, history and brand power? Are they sitting on a
>> gold mine, or is that just nostalgia blinding me?
>
> I think the Ultima series has mainly been forgetten now, and the part
> of series that people do have nostalgia for, Ultima VII and earier, just
> aren't the sort of game you can make on the PC these days. On the other
> hand, EA still continues to run and produce expansions for Ultima Online,
> so you can't say that franchise is dead.
>
Well I think so too, for most people who still can remember the name
they just associate Ultima online with it, which is a shame since
without Ultima there never would have been Morrowind and Oblivion and
the Gothics, the Ultimas simply did the groundwork for free form world
simulations and the mechanics have not changed since then. They simply
were the first wo broke from the Pen and Paper scheme which the Japo
RPGs follow until today.
>> Look at EA's Need for Speed franchise, it was an absolute mess, but
>> they outsourced the game to a studio who specializes in racing games,
>> and the end result was NFS: Shift - critically and commercially well
>> received. Why can't EA do that with the Ultima series?
>
> EA already has a studio that specializes in RPGs like Ultima,
> BioWare/Mythic. It's basically up to Ray Muzyka if they want to do
> anything in the single player realm with the Ultima IP, and I doubt he's
> going to think it would be a better idea than working on Mass Effect 3
> or the next Dragon Age game. Maybe some iPhone game with 2D top down
> graphics like the good ol' Ultimas.
>
Soory to say that, I am not sure about Mythic, but Biowares engine could
not really deliver a game the Ultima fans would have wanted. Every
Ultima which has to follow U6 and 7 has to deliver a free form world
simulation with explorational aspects similar to the Gothics, which
means handcrafted with high emphasis on detail. The remaining fans would
not accept an Ultima with hidden barriers, no jumping possible and
crates as the only form of container holding items or even worse machine
generated content just for the sake of delivering a big world!
>> Sorry for the random thoughts, it's something I've been thinking about
>> for a couple of years. I'm a fan of the Gothic series, which is a
>> Euro-esque Ultima... and after playing Risen and even Two Worlds a
>> couple of years ago, I just have to ask: Why no Ultima X?
>
> Meh. There'll more Gothic-like games.
>
Well yes german developers today hold the candle Ultima once had, and I
guess without Ultima 7 there would be no Gothic today. The similarities
between Ultima 7 and Gothic are so striking, even some colors used and
some Icons uses are very similar.
Bethestha could do similar games enginewise, but they simply do not get
it storywise what had to be done (especially NPC wise) their biggest
problem has been and probably will be that their stories and NPC
characterizations are so generic that their games simply do not have any
soul. Even Fallout 3 while being denser still has the Bethestha problem,
they simply did not get the essence of what a Fallout game was, it was
more like a Fanfic than really a Fallout game in the best sense of the word!
Gothic2 was basically for me what Ultima 8 well done in 3d could have been!
But given the average magazine ratings, it seems that shallow stuff is
more along the lines of the reviewers then deep explorational games
which do not play nanny all the time. Fallout 3 average 90% ratings
Risen outside of germany 80% or less!
Guess what the better game really is, it is not the bore Bethestha
delivered! So I dont see anyone doing a commercial future Ultima for the
following years. Bioware could not pull it without a new engine, and I
doubt they have any incentive and outside of EA only the hobbyists do
Ultimas in shady legal areas, and there are some interesting projects
which are done or are close to being finished!
Gabriele Neukam
On this special day, Werner Punz wrote:
> has to deliver a free form world simulation with explorational aspects
> similar to the Gothics, which means handcrafted with high emphasis on detail
This would be really nice, but the destiny which hit Ascaron/StudioII
while doing exactly that, shows that excessive manual work on a modern
game can actually destroy the developer.
After the release of Sacred2 on PC and shortly before its publishing on
two consoles, Ascaron went into the german equivalent of chapter
eleven, rushed out a small add on, and then died. Which was a shock for
the whole community, no matter how much they had been complaining about
the numerous bugs which had slipped into the game, in spite of quality
testing.
Gabriele Neukam
--
Ah, Information. A property, too valuable these days, to give it away,
just so, at no cost.
Florian Schaetz
> I think the Ultima series has mainly been forgetten now, and the part
> of series that people do have nostalgia for, Ultima VII and earier, just
> aren't the sort of game you can make on the PC these days.
Don't say that. There's exult, for example, which makes Ultima 7 very
playable on a modern computer - even improving it technically.
Unfortunately, the projects for Ultima VI and even Ultima IIX seem to be
dead...
> On the other
> hand, EA still continues to run and produce expansions for Ultima Online,
> so you can't say that franchise is dead.
Ultima Online doesn't have much to do with the Ultima world known from
the rpgs. Ultima Online is just an alternate version of the Ultima
world, some kind of "what if"...
Flo
Werner Punz
> In article <hfuc2p$ac7$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> Trimble Bracegirdle <no-...@never.spam> wrote:
>> It is cursed the same way as e.g.. the THIEF & DEUS EX games are
>> by the original Fans hating (& they really Hate !) the later titles .
>> & hold themselves ever watchful to SAVAGE ! (Totally) any new release...
>> Commercially it's doomed.
>
> I don't know. All the 'old school' fan hatred of Fallout 3 didn't
> prevent it from becoming a major critical and commercial success.
critical success either, welcome to the mainstream gaming world.
The last 10 years the game industry has become more or less
the same as the movie industry, shallow blockbusters which leave a
hollow feeling sell millions while real gems just are discovered by a
few and get rated down because no one pays the ads ;-)
Not that Fallout 3 was a bad game, but it should not have had the name
Fallout over it.
Werner Punz
>
> On this special day, Werner Punz wrote:
>
>> has to deliver a free form world simulation with explorational aspects
>> similar to the Gothics, which means handcrafted with high emphasis on
>> detail
>
> This would be really nice, but the destiny which hit Ascaron/StudioII
> while doing exactly that, shows that excessive manual work on a modern
> game can actually destroy the developer.
>
> After the release of Sacred2 on PC and shortly before its publishing on
> two consoles, Ascaron went into the german equivalent of chapter eleven,
> rushed out a small add on, and then died. Which was a shock for the
> whole community, no matter how much they had been complaining about the
> numerous bugs which had slipped into the game, in spite of quality testing.
>
>
some companies are able to pull it off. Piranha bytes for instance, or
the arcane studios. I rather doubt that for the forseeable future we
will again see an open handcrafted world in the dimensions of Ultima 7
but I?d rather have a small island which is fully handcrafted and full
of hidden things to discover than a continent generically generated and
full of dungeons which look the same.
yaugin
Ultima is one of those games that has been absent so long from the
collective consciousness that bringing it back is almost as risky as
new IP. Ultima was never well-known on consoles and that's where
public attention is focused today. Virtually any new game must be
designed with an intent, if not focus, on being played with a gamepad.
So the question is not whether EA can make another Ultima game -- of
course they can, but would Ultima fans really want to play it? If the
audience for the new game isn't made up of old school Ultima fans,
then it's basically like launching a new IP, and in any case you won't
get the game you want.
I wouldn't expect anything (good) to develop on this front until we
get news that EA has sold the Ultima franchise, perhaps back to
Garriott, a la the recent buyback of FASA properties by Mechner's
studio. In the hands of the original creators we might get a true
sequel for the series, but otherwise we'll only be set up for further
disappointment. What I would expect from EA is that they will make a
"reboot" of the series, maybe go for a Fable clone, and it will be
Ultima in name only.
The chances of an "Ultima X" being released, so long after the last
game, are pretty slim. It's difficult to market a part 10 to an
audience that very likely may never have played parts 1-9.
Vincenzo Beretta
> by the original Fans hating (& they really Hate !) the later titles .
> & hold themselves ever watchful to SAVAGE ! (Totally) any new release.
"Deus Ex 2" was meh, but I really liked "Thief 3". And you forgot "Fallout"
among the franchises that "The sequels *will* be bad even if I'm clueless
about what I'm talking about"
> Whilst the late comers like the prospect of a new release but must stay
> quiet with there supposed ignorance of the "Great Tradition & True Routes"
This is why today the best way to "break groupthink and affirm yourself as
an individual" is to play "Fallout 3" and have a blast... :^D
Vincenzo Beretta
> dead...
The remake of Ultima VI for Dungeon Siege reached beta in late November, so
it would seem that they are going to finish it.
http://u6project.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=82&Itemid=54
Ross Ridge
> EA already has a studio that specializes in RPGs like Ultima,
> BioWare/Mythic. It's basically up to Ray Muzyka if they want to do
> anything in the single player realm with the Ultima IP, and I doubt he's
> going to think it would be a better idea than working on Mass Effect 3
> or the next Dragon Age game. Maybe some iPhone game with 2D top down
> graphics like the good ol' Ultimas.
>Soory to say that, I am not sure about Mythic, but Biowares engine could
>not really deliver a game the Ultima fans would have wanted.
Well, that's beside the point. Whether EA creates a entirely new engine,
reuses an BioWare engine, or just outsources it completely, it's up the
RPG group at EA to decide how to exploit the Ultima name. Since the
RPG group is largely managed by BioWare people, and since the Ultima
games aren't really their style, I don't think there's much chance of
them deciding to make an Ultima game.
Scatter
> Really? Personally, I like all three parts of Thief, but especially the
> 2nd (Steampunk-Fan) - and the Cradle from Part 3 is still the best level
> of all Thief games :-)
My favourite was "Return to Cathedral" from T1. The retextured robots
from system shock 1 sort of spoiled T2 for me.
Werner Punz
> Ross Ridge schrieb:
>> EA already has a studio that specializes in RPGs like Ultima,
>> BioWare/Mythic. It's basically up to Ray Muzyka if they want to do
>> anything in the single player realm with the Ultima IP, and I doubt he's
>> going to think it would be a better idea than working on Mass Effect 3
>> or the next Dragon Age game. Maybe some iPhone game with 2D top down
>> graphics like the good ol' Ultimas.
>
> Werner Punz <we...@gmx.at> wrote:
>> Soory to say that, I am not sure about Mythic, but Biowares engine could
>> not really deliver a game the Ultima fans would have wanted.
>
> Well, that's beside the point. Whether EA creates a entirely new engine,
> reuses an BioWare engine, or just outsources it completely, it's up the
> RPG group at EA to decide how to exploit the Ultima name. Since the
> RPG group is largely managed by BioWare people, and since the Ultima
> games aren't really their style, I don't think there's much chance of
> them deciding to make an Ultima game.
>
same goes for Wing Commander btw. or anything else done by Origin.
EA pretty much has closed the chapter Origin in their books, it is
written off and the franchises probably totally forgotten by the people
working there.
I also dont see any intent of Richard Garriot of trying to pry the
franchise away from EA and revive it again. I personally think that
he was not too sad to get Ultima off his back since intentions after UO
were mostly multiplayer related, and after 20 years of Ultima it seemed
from what I could gather from his interviews he was sort of tired doing
Ultima over and over again (probably that was one of the reasons for his
limited involvement in the servies after U6, Warren Spector mostly
saved U7 and the Underworlds (the underworlds never got the attention
from Origins side they deserved, only Spector knew what potential they
had), but then he also moved on)
RIP Origin it has been a blast while you were among us :-(
Werner Punz
the U5 remake and gave up instantly, the engine, while theoretically
being fine for an Ultima game, constantly pushes everything into a fog
to save polygons. So basically you see 10 meters of Britannia and thats
it, it is like the entire country has been clouded in fog even the
interiors of castles and houses.
Not sure if this can be turned off though, if it can be turned off then
it is definitely worthwhile. (Have in mind the engine is from around
2000 or so, and graphics cards were not too powerful and could not
really lift an open world like they can nowadays)
While the engine is powerful enough to pull off a decent Ultima this fog
ruins everything, and also was one of the main critizisms of the
original engine. But besides that the videos from the U6 remake look
awesome and it is definitely one of the best remakes of an old Ultima so
far, they hit it right on the head with it (except for the character
Icon of Lord British)
Also there is a U9 remake/redo decent project in the works based on the
Morrowind engine afair that one also still is in development!
For the Deus Ex fans there recently has been a Deus Ex DC release which
seemed to be very good.(not played it though)
Werner Punz
I forgot to post some links
U5 remake video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB-ITnsXTy0&feature=related
http://www.u5lazarus.com/ project homepage
U6 remake video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_Ka634314Q
http://u6project.com/ the project homepage
And here is the link to Ultima 9 redemption the Morrowind TC for a better U9
http://cfkasper.de/ultima/
Those three look most promising so far, with one being finished two
being so far advanced that it is likely that they will see a release.
Also there are various U4 remakes on the net and the original floating
around.
Not sure about 1-3 though I can remember seeing a Aklabeth remake.
Nostromo
Domini:
>Vincenzo Beretta schrieb:
>>> Unfortunately, the projects for Ultima VI and even Ultima IIX seem to be
>>> dead...
>>
>> The remake of Ultima VI for Dungeon Siege reached beta in late November, so
>> it would seem that they are going to finish it.
>>
>> http://u6project.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=82&Itemid=54
>>
>>
>I simply have a problem with the Dungeon Siege based remakes, I tried
>the U5 remake and gave up instantly, the engine, while theoretically
>being fine for an Ultima game, constantly pushes everything into a fog
>to save polygons. So basically you see 10 meters of Britannia and thats
>it, it is like the entire country has been clouded in fog even the
>interiors of castles and houses.
>Not sure if this can be turned off though, if it can be turned off then
>it is definitely worthwhile. (Have in mind the engine is from around
>2000 or so, and graphics cards were not too powerful and could not
>really lift an open world like they can nowadays)
>
>While the engine is powerful enough to pull off a decent Ultima this fog
>ruins everything, and also was one of the main critizisms of the
>original engine. But besides that the videos from the U6 remake look
>awesome and it is definitely one of the best remakes of an old Ultima so
>far, they hit it right on the head with it (except for the character
>Icon of Lord British)
I gave up after I realised there was no quest journal, no conversation logs
& no (auto)map to speak of really. I guess modern crpgs have made me lazy
:).
>Also there is a U9 remake/redo decent project in the works based on the
>Morrowind engine afair that one also still is in development!
YAY! A shit game in a shit series gets an overhaul with an even shittier
sandbox game engine! Can you name 2 crpg series I loath with a passion? ;)
>For the Deus Ex fans there recently has been a Deus Ex DC release which
>seemed to be very good.(not played it though)
Another game trying to be too much of everything & succeeding in too little
of anything if you ask me (& I managed to play it for 10-12 hours, to my
credit).
--
Nostromo
Nostromo
Anno Domini:
>The chances of an "Ultima X" being released, so long after the last
>game, are pretty slim. It's difficult to market a part 10 to an
>audience that very likely may never have played parts 1-9.
Just call it "Ultima XXX", put Vin Diesel on the cover along with some
in-game cut scenes, & the console cretins will buy it by the boot/trunk full
lol!
--
Nostromo
Kyle Haight
Werner Punz <we...@gmx.at> wrote:
>
>Well the non existend game did not prevent Assassins Creed to become a
>critical success either, welcome to the mainstream gaming world.
The original point was about whether fan hatred would block a francise
reboot by guaranteeing critical and commercial failure. Fallout 3
is an existence proof to the contrary. Whether the resulting game is
any good, well, that's another kettle of fish.
--
Kyle Haight
Scharmers
>
> For the Deus Ex fans there recently has been a Deus Ex DC release which
> seemed to be very good.(not played it though)
That would be "The Nameless Mod" for Deus Ex. It meets or exceeds the
original game's quality. No, this is not hyperbole.
--scharmers
Werner Punz
>> Also there is a U9 remake/redo decent project in the works based on the
>> Morrowind engine afair that one also still is in development!
>
> YAY! A shit game in a shit series gets an overhaul with an even shittier
> sandbox game engine! Can you name 2 crpg series I loath with a passion? ;)
>
Actually the Ultima series was hardly shit without it basically all RPGs
would look different. Ultima single handedly defined how a CRPG has to
work in the areas of Turn based rpgs, real time, linear and freeform.
Without it no JRPGs would exist no Oblivion Morrowind or whatever.
I would call that hardly shit.
Just because EA screwed up part 9 does not mean a remake cannot be well
done.
After all the originally planned storyline is known and even with a
modern engine the released U9 can be redone well if some people who know
how to do the job and love the series do it-