HP 49G+ keyboard answers
Eric Rechlin
I feel the point has come where I need to settle some things.
There has been a lot of misinformation over the years about the keyboard in
the HP 49G+. I have used a large number of 49G+ calculators and every
single ROM, so I feel I am in a good position to analyze the different types
of keyboards, so I will try to set things straight as best as I can.
First, as most of you are aware, the problems in the 49G+ keyboard have been
caused by both hardware and software.
The very first 49G+ units had an absolutely terrible keyboard. These were
all made in 2003 (mostly CN33 and CN34 serial numbers), and they are easily
identified by the loud, hollow clicking sounds when pressing keys. The keys
required a significant amount of force to press, and missed keystrokes were
common. The keys also frequently broke under use that most would not
consider abuse.
The manufacturing process for the keyboard appears to have been changed at
the end of 2003. The first unit I used with the second-generation keyboard
had a serial number starting with CN352. This later keyboard required less
force to press and was quieter than the original keyboard. However,
reliability was only slightly improved, with missed keystrokes still common
and the "loose tooth" broken key problem at least as bad as before.
Most readers of this group probably have 49G+ calculators with this
second-generation keyboard, as it was produced for about a year and a half.
All CN4 and CNA4 units, as well as the early CNA5 units and a few very late
CN3 units, have the second-generation keyboard.
The third-generation keyboard was introduced in mid-2005. I have seen
several units with CNA515 serial numbers with the third-generation keyboard,
but I have also seen several CNA52 units with the second-generation
keyboard, so it seems to have been slowly introduced. All CNA534 and later
units that I have used have had the new keyboard.
The third-generation keyboard is easy to detect. The plastic used in the
keys, as well as the mechanics behind the keys, have both changed. I do not
know whether there are any units with only one of these changes, so there
may be some hybrids out there, but I have not seen or heard of any.
The new plastic is a lot more flexible, and it makes the keys significantly
more durable. It would take a large amount of abuse to damage the
third-generation keyboard, so broken keys should be a thing of the past.
This new plastic can be identified visually, as the plastic itself is
slightly smoother, and the key labels are slightly less shiny. The keys now
have metal domes behind them, which make them feel a lot like HP
48SX/GX-style keys. Key travel is slightly shorter, and they feel more
responsive. They are also far more reliable, so no keystrokes should be
lost in normal use.
The newest keyboards have been available on the retail market in the US for
the last few months, so calculators purchased this year may be of the new
design.
This means the hardware problem has been definitively solved, which brings
us to the software problems.
The early 1.2x 49G+ ROMs were a disaster, and many keystrokes were lost
somewhere in software on those ROMs. It doesn't really matter if they were
lost in the operating system (Kinpo OS) or the Saturn emulator, because the
49G ROM never saw the keystrokes.
ROM 2.00 Build 50 changed the key handling, meaning that individual
keystrokes were no longer lost in software. However, there was so much
variation within the apparently large manufacturing tolerances in the
keyboards that its keybounce settings were rarely appropriate. Many users
reported either doubled keystrokes (keybounce time set too short), and other
users reported having the second keystroke in an intentionally doubled
series being missed (keybounce time set too long).
Various 2.01 builds tried different keybounce timings, but due to the poor
hardware in the first and second-generation keyboards, nothing worked
perfectly for everybody.
ROM 2.05-4 Build 88 brought back the KEYTIME commands. This allowed the
user to set the keybounce timing in 20-millisecond increments, so it could
be set appropriately for any hardware. This was the first ROM that could
truly be considered reliable for keyboard entry. Of course, this assumes it
is being used on reliable hardware.
The new, third-generation metal dome keyboard does an amazing job at
eliminating keybounce. Setting the KEYTIME to as low as 160 ticks (that's
just 20 milliseconds) still has no bounce, and buttons can be pressed as
fast as humanly possible with no missed keystrokes.
In summary: Get a 49G+ with a serial number of CNA534 or higher, install ROM
2.06, and you should never have any more missed keystrokes or broken keys.
Regards,
Eric Rechlin
(Remove RPL from my email address to reply)
Raymond Del Tondo
many thanks for the clarification.
Finally some serious information!
Regards
Raymond
"Eric Rechlin" <er...@RPLhpcalc.org> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:4a3b8nF...@individual.net...
John H Meyers
Best posting of 2006!
I'd never seen all this detail from the past,
coming even from whom you'd most expect to know it,
but I also hadn't been reading much throughout this history,
only recently came into a 49G+ (2nd generation, per your info).
> The keys now have metal domes behind them
Like the Voyager series? (or the major overhaul of Spice?)
http://www.hpmuseum.org/collect.htm#series
http://www.hpmuseum.org/30nkb.jpg [overhauled Spice]
http://www.hpmuseum.org/10csnap.jpg [Voyager]
http://www.hpmuseum.org/10csnpbk.jpg
http://www.hpmuseum.org/10cint.jpg
> which make them feel a lot like HP 48SX/GX-style keys
But 48SX/GX never had "metal domes," did they?
(it always felt like "plastic bumps" to me :)
Voyager series:
"High reliability: The ICs had intermediate oxide layers to trap contaminants
and were routinely inspected and tested at elevated temperatures.
The ICs were designed to survive electrostatic discharges
in excess of 4000 volts."
"Lower power consumption: An 85 thousand transistor circuit
drew .25 milliwatts and had a standby leakage of 5 - 10 nanoamperes.
The process was meant to allow calculators to run for a year
from a set of small batteries but several owners have reported
that they are still running on their original batteries after 20-22 years."
[apparently some batteries are built to survive that long,
without even leaking :]
http://www.hpmuseum.org/tech10.htm
"One [original] HP-12C was used by a zoo keeper to calculate feed mixtures.
The zoo keeper dropped the calculator and it was consumed by a hippopotamus.
The calculator survived the hippo's digestive process
as well as the washing that followed."
"The record so far is 22 years on the original set of batteries
and that sample is still running!"
http://www.hpmuseum.org/hp12c.htm
[r->] [OFF]
Arnaud Amiel
John H Meyers wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Apr 2006 22:42:11 -0500, Eric Rechlin wrote...
>
> Best posting of 2006!
>
Best posting since the 49g+ was released!
I am just disappointed that Eric does not post more often. But I guess
he is a busy man.
Arnaud
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
news:1144828351.7...@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
He posts only quality posts
Whereas eg. my post vary greatly
from guessing game (that pisses of JYA)
rumors and opinions
to really helpful newbie answers
and deep insight of HP calculators
plus some small contributions to the
www.hpcalc.org
Arnaud Amiel
the look like they will be working I give up... Still I try to help
when I can and you haven't replied before me which is rare :-).
Some day I should empty my calc and tidy to hpcalc.org. Some day...
Arnaud
AL.
>
>In summary: Get a 49G+ with a serial number of CNA534 or higher,
How?...
A.L.
m...@here.there
> In summary: Get a 49G+ with a serial number of CNA534 or higher, install ROM
> 2.06, and you should never have any more missed keystrokes or broken keys.
>
Hi Eric,
I know you can help with the second point but what about the first? What
serials do the ones you stock have? I'd hate to import one from the USA
to UK to find that it was no better than the one I had before!
Tra
Meh.
dilt...@gmail.com
the v.80 on HP's website.
Gene
Under the 49g+ section, click on ROM updates.
Scroll down the resulting list and you'll see ROM 2.06 G+
That's it.
Another way to have done that is to google "hp49g+ rom 2.06".
First hit is Eric's link for this ROM. :-)
Gene
dilt...@gmail.com
dilt...@gmail.com
Gene
released as "beta" roms. They aren't placed on HP's site but get
distributed in other ways.
2.06 is a beta rom, not a "commercial" release (at least, I haven't
seen a machine ship with it, so ...)
John H Meyers
> [Eric Rechlin] posts only quality posts...
Also originated (and continues to maintain)
what is now http://www.hpcalc.org
which is of far greater support value
than anything directly provided by HP itself.
Perhaps a business revolution is in order;
user groups might well be capable of producing and supporting
finer products -- the only problem is, there is always
some other company, still paying salary to those
who produce the other "free software" and services,
so just what sort of economic model
takes the entire society into account,
yet yields better overall output at the same time?
At our university, we see it not in terms of knowing
what final organization will emerge, but rather as
a product of letting every mind rise to its full potential
(basically by nothing more than being absolutely quiet and still),
then letting that inevitably permeate through society,
like rain through drought-challenged soil.
Two of our worldwide schools are http://www.mum.edu
and http://www.maharishischooliowa.org
[r->] [OFF]
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
news:op.s7wo2...@news.cis.dfn.de...
X
which are anti-christian
and you're off-topic
and off newsgroup
John H Meyers
> Why isn't this version on HP's web site?
Ever come upon something in the news like
"An administration official"
(or "Someone close to the Administration") said...
It may well serve that administration not to take direct responsibility,
even though it may benefit from (and may even bless)
the release of that information.
Most everything contributed to hpcalc.org says
"I'm not taking responsibility for your use of this,"
but manufacturers may not want to do that for established products.
Why are "Google Groups" and "Google Mail" [Gmail]
still "Beta" versions?
Somehow "Google News" has managed to graduate out of Beta,
even though I can't detect any significant recent development.
[r->] [OFF]
John H Meyers
> which are anti-christian
It would be just funny of it weren't that some take it seriously;
I think that calculators are more anti-Christian, given that
they seem to take so much of the mind's attention
away from all of God's Nature outside,
into the non-living realm of what -- formulas and numbers?
What could have done more damage to all religions
than the division of the entirety of knowledge
(which is the full meaning of "science")
into the one branch ("objective," focusing on knowing external
objects while minimizing the knower) which has a "good" image,
vs. the other branch ("subjective," focusing on the full nature
of the knower within the self, regardless of what is observed),
which gets dumped on?
The "objective" part is what tells folks to teach only Darwin,
ol' Brother Peter, so don't go too far in that direction,
or you'll cut down the very branch you're sitting on :)
Oh, well, since you insisted on playing an "anti-christian" card
(even though I think it's only "anti-VPN's prejudices"):
Not according to the priest who wrote a book about the
gains to his own spiritual life from merely
having a more quiet mind, nor to the devout Trappist monk
who also became a TM teacher on my own course,
nor to many who have profound knowledge and experience,
but there will always be a supply of superficial chaff
to substitute for depth and breadth of knowledge,
just as there is in the daily discussion here
of less significant topics.
> and you're off-topic and off newsgroup
Have you said the same of the often-seen "RKBA" signatures,
for example? (and God knows how many other diversions
that are taken all the time).
To fail to integrate all of one's experiences in life
is to miss the value of having a consciousness
that has the potential to unify all experience into a greater whole
(like what life is for, remember?)
Is it an educator's business to cook? Why, then, are school lunches
thought so important to a child's development -- could there be
some connection between his nutrition and how much his mind can develop?
So both feeding food and feeding knowledge come together
in the same venue, fortunately, as does the entire range of knowledge
(as well as "purely physical" activity, even for its benefit to the mind)
fall under one roof, including the knowledge of the value of resting,
which is what has propelled this school into extraordinary achievement
(not that anyone here would be interested in good schooling,
where keyboard cracking and debouncing is life's greatest concern :)
Every field from mathematics to psychology,
from playing games and making music and images
to the philosphies of business activity, all justifiably mingle,
even as we gather around a table filled with calculators,
but here we have a would-be censor (of only what he doesn't like),
not of the same cloth as this:
"I disapprove of what you say,
but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
http://www.bartleby.com/66/40/63040.html
[r->] [OFF]
xEaGLe
And what happens to costumers who bought older models ?
I read some "now the keyboard is perfect!" threads in the past, i hope
that you are right and the calc is perfect now.
John H Meyers
> What happens to customers who bought older models ?
They get older too -- I'm an older model myself,
wondering whether my own fingers will break and cease functioning;
what if what I die of becomes preventable or curable a year later?
Occasionally a manufacturer "makes good" on defects beyond warranty,
for various reasons -- bad publicity (affecting sales or votes), lawsuits,
maybe even conscience or ingrained religious philosophy or national culture
(I read of an airline executive in Japan making a personal visit to each
family of persons who died in a crash -- to apologize, not to pay, while I read
also that in Iraq and Afghanistan we have sometimes paid for innocents killed,
which seems to be ingrained into those local cultures, rather than apology).
But calculators are not such life-and-death things -- unless perhaps
you goof calculating your remaining fuel while flying, e.g. July 29, 1983
http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-69-240-1155-10/on_this_day/life_society/gimli_glider
Suppose that only profit counts; the manufacturer being a publicly owned entity,
the owners (of stock) also have influence, as well as the owners of products.
Almost everyone who can make a decision reports to someone else,
and has them to answer to as well. There are so many interconnected things
in our universe, how far can we get in our knowledge and decision making
by figuring one step at a time, calculator-like,
vs. having some innate "parallel processing"
which guides our instincts all at once into optimal paths,
much as water levels itself out, or chains settle into catenary curves,
all of which are examples of spontaneously self-optimizing something?
Buckminster Fuller, in several books, pointed out that we are mostly
automated ourselves -- if our natural functioning is not impaired,
e.g. "Operating Manual for Spaceship Earth" http://bfi.org/?q=node/422
(I couldn't put the first chapter down, http://bfi.org/?q=node/421)
Excerpts from http://bfi.org/?q=node/112 ("Everything I Know"):
"When I was 7 the Wright brothers suddenly flew and my memory is vivid enough
of age seven to remember that for about a year the engineering societies
were trying to prove it was a hoax because it was absolutely impossible
for man to do that."
"From what we can learn of human beings in their earliest recorded communicating,
in an important degree, people in India 5000 years ago and in China 5000 years
ago were thinking very extraordinarily well in the terms of anything we know
about our experience. I'm astonished at how well the early Hindu and Chinese thinker
was able to process his information, in view of the very limited amount of information
humanity had as of that time in comparison to anything we have today."
Well, every page I turn to has so much in it that I'll have to stop there;
when I attended lectures on and off the Cornell campus by physicist
Philip Morrison (http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2005/morrison.html)
he always expanded every topic into the broadest range
of all the connections with not only the rest of physics and mathematics,
but also the entire range of his (and everyone's) life,
what may be called "the humanities" [are we not most basically human?],
and that's the kind of education (and educator) which I admire
[read the MIT article, compare with educators familiar to you].
I didn't set out to wander into this, but after the first sentence,
the thoughts just kept coming, and onto the screen they have gone,
to bounce off a litle group that I often meet with,
just as extra points about HP4x usually do, and then further.
Dunno about you, but I both feel and function hugely better
after a very deep rest, after being quiet; some get it communing
with nature outside, some with nature inside, some with both,
but never for me from contact with my calculator, alas.
Two quotes and I'm outta here:
"Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence."
http://hobbes.ncsa.uiuc.edu/desiderata.html
The Role of Silence
"A cessation from all mental activity so that the body and mind
are as still and quiet as possible... The first objective
is to enable a person to be in touch with the inner core of his being
so that his whole life may be renewed."
http://www2.gol.com/users/quakers/role_of_silence.htm [Quakers in Japan]
You can turn to every culture in the world that has had a long history,
and it has always discovered this same gem, exactly as Bucky Fuller noted.
Best wishes to all, and to all a good night.
Jean-Yves Avenard
> I think that calculators are more anti-Christian, given that
let's talk about the "SIN" key instead...
JY
Joe Horn
> How?...
Just pick it up in the store and look; you don't even need to open the
[unopenable] package. The serial number is printed on a little
silver-colored sticker attached to the *outside* of the commercial
package, usually the upper back side. If the vendor has removed the
sticker, shop elsewhere.
If you're buying it "sight unseen", as over the Internet, then only buy
it from a dealer who is able to guarantee that they will send you one
with a serial number 534+. If they cannot guarantee that, shop
elsewhere.
Eric is right. ME no longer has anything to bitch about. The HP we knew
and loved is back.
-Joe-
Joe Horn
Perfection leaves no room for improvement. HP was never perfect; it
was, at best, simply better than anything else available. That was what
we loved about HP; they EXCELLED at whatever they did. I assure you,
that old-time HP *excellence* is back! NOBODY else used the fabulous
metal-dome keyboards that HP used, and *voila* they're back! Your
skepticism is totally understandable, since the plastic-dome keyboards
and fragile key hinges were worse than bad. We complained. Hurd heard.
Stay tuned!
-Joe-
Bob
"Jean-Yves Avenard" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:4a5np7F...@individual.net...
Too damn funny, Jean-Yves!
Bob
Jean-Yves Avenard
> metal-dome keyboards that HP used, and *voila* they're back! Your
> skepticism is totally understandable, since the plastic-dome keyboards
> and fragile key hinges were worse than bad. We complained. Hurd heard.
Still too a while for a change to actually happened.
But didn't the original HP49G used metal-dome ?
JY
Arnaud Amiel
function to the [+] key
Arnaud
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
X
Why don't you write to some philosophy group
This is about calculators
martin cohen
Doing "SIN" is more fun when you can pass a list to it!
Martin Cohen
mk
itself is
slightly smoother, and the key labels are slightly less shiny...Key
travel is slightly shorter, and they feel more responsive."
I *think* I can see/detect the differences in my older 49G+ (CN402
embossed) and newer 49G+ (CNA519 sticker), but I'm still not sure.
I believe the backspace/drop key has the widest swath of paint; so this
is what I'm looking at in terms of the key labels being "slightly less
shiny". My older calc's bs/drop key is more "glossy", than the "matte"
(non-reflective) finish of my newer calc.
Since you can't see the metal domes, are there any other "telltale"
details that indicate that a third-gen keyboard? I've tried setting
Keytime to "0" on both calcs. With this setting, I can still get both
calculators to have double-characters. I guess I'm looking for a
definitive test or physical detail (if one exists).
Finally, are these newest 49g+ keyboards the same as those on the 40GS
calculators (that Colin described)?
Thx,
Matt
Scott Chapin
ROTFLMFAO
Let's talk about the paint job. The keys are great, and that is certainly
encouraging, welcome news, but let's fix the pain!
Scott Chapin
Scott Chapin
So that's why those SIN keys produce wavy lines that keep deviating from the
straight and narrow and come back again.
ME
"Joe Horn" <joe...@holyjoe.net> wrote in message
news:1144897116.4...@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
and replace my calc. It took them a while to get it right but why not tell
the users/owners? Why leave them in the dark? I doubt that hp would have
done anything without "feedback".
John H Meyers
> Didn't the original HP49G use metal-dome [keyboard]?
Not mine (HP49G with fairly early version "M" purchased from EduCalc).
[r->] [OFF]
John H Meyers
John H Meyers
> But didn't the original HP49G use metal-dome ?
"HP49G" ?
Would serials ID912 and ID937 (or the entire production run?)
have had metal domes?
Whatever is in these two, the keys near the center
make sounds that could almost be called a "click,"
but near the edges they sound (and feel) "mushy."
Why did (and still do) they need so much debouncing?
Why do they need so much force to press keys
(making typing slow and reducing "tactile feedback"),
as compared to the much older "metal dome" series?
What about the nature of the metal (and board contacts)?
A long time ago, some Texas-based company used, for several years,
in every model (both LED and LCD displays)
some sort of "wire crossbar" keyboard
(IIRC 8-rows, 5-keys per row, uniformly-spaced rectangular array,
every key identical in size), sort of sealed with plastic film in front.
These all worked great brand new, but over time it appears that
chemistry got into the act somewhere, and now it takes a one ton weight,
resting on each individual key (and rolling around for a while)
to start registering keypresses again. That was an extreme, of course,
resorted to by that other company; I've never experienced any HP keyboard
oxidizing like that, but there's still a long range between the gold-plated
HP35 key strips (and board) and what's now in use, and might there be
any variation in properties along the way? (both physical and electrical?)
I also have all sorts of Casio and Sharp "basic checkbook balancing"
type models, gathered over many years, whose keyboards have no metal at all
(well, some have gold plating on a board and rubber-like keys, others
have "film" instead of "boards" and even clever designs where pressing a key
slightly bends that film and pushes it thru a mask of holes against
posts upon which little paper-like "conductive things" have been stuck) --
all sorts of inexpensive designs, yet they all still work as if new,
never missing or duplicating a keypress, giving great confidence
to the user without having to monitor the display.
Some of these are so old that any patents must have expired;
is it all a lost art that no one remembers, neither in Texas,
Australia, China, nor anywhere else?
[r->] [OFF]
John H Meyers
How about a "Contactless Keyboard"?
"The 9800 keyboards had a printed circuit board transformer
under each key. Each key had a metal disk
and when this disk was moved closer to the coils
printed on the circuit board,
it changed the transformer's performance.
This change was amplified by a comparator.
This kind of keyboard was very reliable
due to the lack of mechanical contacts."
http://www.hpmuseum.org/tech98xx.htm
http://www.hpmuseum.org/9820ikb.jpg
Well, that's quite a different "metal disk" design :)
I seem to recall another era also,
when "membrane" keyboards were very popular,
and those which I've got have lasted decades without failing.
Apparently, some later Japanese designs simply put keys on top
of what still resembles that kind of keyboard,
adding looks and "tactile feedback,"
while retaining reliability and long life.
[r->] [OFF]
Jean-Yves Avenard
> Why did (and still do) they need so much debouncing?
Uh?
They required far far less debouncing that the HP48S/G
One of the reason while when you keep a key pressed everything slow down
so much
>
> Why do they need so much force to press keys
> (making typing slow and reducing "tactile feedback"),
> as compared to the much older "metal dome" series?
metal-dome has little to do with this, mainly on how the keys we
designed, no hinge
JY
John H Meyers
> [original 48G keys] required far far less debouncing than the HP48S/G.
> One of the reasons [why] when you keep a key pressed [on HP48],
> everything slows down so much.
But 48S/G debouncing occurs internally, only slows down
anything if something is already executing meanwhile,
needs no help from the user, and silently works,
so that I don't recall any bouncing or missed keystrokes,
while this wasn't the case with my ID912 and ID937 units
(a large enough KEYTIME forced typing to slow down,
or else the result was missed presses instead).
> metal-dome has little to do with [key pressure],
> mainly on how the keys we designed, no hinge
Early 49G had very stiff rubber, didn't they get easier later?
The Sharp Wizard sitting on my desk has rubber keys with no hinge,
yet it works with very little force, has distinct "tactile feedback"
(with very short vertical travel), and has been in daily use
for many years, without bounces or missed keypresses.
The Wizard's keys might be a little more delicate and sensitive,
but they work so well, and (possibly due to not needing so much force),
their printing has also lasted without wear.
It may be that nobody wants to market a calculator with such a keyboard,
even though it would be just perfect for me.
I'm glad to hear that a "third generation" exists,
even though I have an older 49G+
Thanks also to the "early adopters" of the generation before mine,
who have left their legacy to pass on to future generations.
[r->] [OFF]
arturo
i use a 48 to predict roulette and wanted the speed
of a 49g+. the 48 takes about 2.5 seconds to signal
a bet cue and i'm told the 49g+ can do that about 5
times faster. i started searching for info on the 49
about a week ago and was very discouraged about
the button problem. i was ready to forget the 49 untill
reading your post. the thing is to get that 2.5 secs down
to 0.5 sec increases my opportunities greatly.
all i need to do now is figure how to get 48gx programs
into 49g+. thanks
Joe Horn
> Actually Joe , all I ever wanted was for hp
> to state what Eric has stated and replace my calc.
I totally agree, regardless of whether the defective calc is "under
warranty" or not.
> It took them a while to get it right
> but why not tell the users/owners?
> Why leave them in the dark?
Here I disagree with you. No company is obliged to publicize its
mistakes except in rare cases, e.g. cars that must be recalled due to
an unsafe design flaw. The Old HP was very generous in its swapping of
defective calcs, even out of warranty, but they never went out of their
way to advertise those defects to happy customers and turn them into
unhappy ones. I mean, the huge percentage of hp49g+ owners use their
machine infrequently enough (or gently enough) to remain blissfully
unaware of its (former) design flaws. It's not reasonable to *expect*
HP to tell those customers, "We're happy that you're happy, but WE know
something YOU don't know! You're only happy because you're CLUELESS!
BWAH Hah hah! That product you bought from us is and love so dearly is
ACTUALLY a piece of CRAP! Don't you feel stupid now? HAH HAH HAH!"
Methinks that HP is now facing a Big Test, with three possible
outcomes. (1) If they advertise their former flaws, they FAIL the test
in the eyes and pocketbooks of their shareholders. (2) If they refuse
to replace bad calcs with good ones, saying "Sorry, they're out of
warranty" then they FAIL the test in the eyes of their customers. (3)
If and only if they quietly but graciously replace faulty ones with
good ones for those customers who request it, no matter how old the
hp49g+ is, will they PASS the test. To my mind, this is not only a
commercial issue, but also a legal issue, and most importantly, an
ethical issue.
The above is my opinion only. Other opinons intelligently shared are
eagerly welcomed.
-Joe-
John H Meyers
> If they advertise their former flaws...
It's possible to "advertise quietly";
for example, whenever our corporate anti-virus product
went berserk on us, sure enough, there was always
a "knowledge base" article that could be found
which described the bug as already known,
and recommended some sort of remedial action
(sometimes a major product update,
unreleased to the public but available privately
thru support request).
Likewise, it's conceivable for HP Support (both on-line
and by phone) to lead a customer searching for a remedy
for this problem to some means for replacing it,
yet without glaringly announcing it to all casual passers by.
Their only publicity hazard might be this newsgroup, actually,
since we sort of unload gripes here, maybe occasionally to excess,
whereas some appreciation might also be called for in balance.
> If and only if they quietly but graciously replace faulty ones with
> good ones for those customers who request it, no matter how old the
> hp49g+ is, will they PASS the test.
It's often believed to be the best policy -- yet here, as with everything
involving judgement, we all vary in our "beliefs" -- good and bad,
moral and immoral, decent and indecent -- all co-exist,
and we all sort out according to something inside of us
which can't really be quantified, can't be "scientifically" decided
the same way for all, just something we acquire individually
by how we are inside.
There isn't any subject or discussion group where you can escape this
as being relevant, I would say, just as you, Fr. Horn, say that
the "uncreated principle" is everywhere, in everything,
in everyone, no matter where you are or what you are doing,
and it somehow keeps connecting with the things of the world we live in.
Thanks for voicing your beliefs and opinions to share here.
[r->] [OFF]
Gene
For a company to even consider admitting any kind of problem is in many
cases an invitation to trial lawyers to try to bankrupt it.
I knew it would never happen for this reason.
John H Meyers
in a very minor product used for math class or homework?
They had to throw out some HP48Gii (or replace ROM in unsold units?),
revise a ROM download for the rest -- how does it compare with
all kinds of product recalls? It *was* recalled (even though some
dealers apparently didn't get word) and ROM update released
for others, wasn't it?
Who knows whether behind closed doors people were ignoring
customers, or perhaps instead doing their utmost -- what happens
when trying to solve a system when there are more unknowns than data?
What does one do? Assume the worst scenario and rail about it?
Is there anything else to attend to now?
This seems much like a newspaper; it gets filled up anyway,
either with new news or rehashed old news.
Electricity went off momentarily last night -- found out
this morning that tornadoes had hit Iowa City -- maybe
more significant to us, though not to you;
suddenly changed many people's perspective,
pulled their attention away from what now may seem
petty ruts of unimportance,
"full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0067372/quotes
[r->] [OFF]
Bruce Horrocks
> How about a "Contactless Keyboard"?
>
> "The 9800 keyboards had a printed circuit board transformer
> under each key. Each key had a metal disk
> and when this disk was moved closer to the coils
> printed on the circuit board,
> it changed the transformer's performance.
> This change was amplified by a comparator.
> This kind of keyboard was very reliable
> due to the lack of mechanical contacts."
US Patent 3859635 has the details for those that are interested.
Regards,
--
Bruce Horrocks
Surrey
England
<firstname>@<surname>.plus.com -- fix the obvious for email
John H Meyers
> US Patent 3,859,635 has the details [apparently on the entire HP98xx!]
Also Patent 3,668,697 on the "contactless keyboard" alone
(originally using ferrite instead of metal discs)
U.S. Patents may be examined on-line at:
http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html
http://patft1.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.htm
Thanks!
U.S. Patent number 3,000,000 was assigned to something
very familiar to anyone who still has a non-plastic checkbook,
but which nowadays is turning into virtual reality,
where you have nothing physical (or even electronic)
that you can keep for yourself to prove anything,
making identity theft as simple as knowing a number.
[r->] [OFF]
John H Meyers
> i use a 48 to predict roulette
Does it work on Power-ball too? http://www.powerball.com
This week's jackpot was a state record US$224.2 Million
(maybe that's why it was record hot weather, too);
it was won by a group of thirteen [lucky number!] who work for
Child Support Enforcement in Florissant, Missouri,
so join your office pool!
> and wanted the speed of a 49g+
> the 48 takes about 2.5 seconds to signal a bet cue
> and i'm told the 49g+ can do that about 5 times faster.
> i started searching for info on the 49
> about a week ago and was very discouraged about
> the button problem. i was ready to forget the 49 untill
> reading your post. the thing is to get that 2.5 secs down
> to 0.5 sec increases my opportunities greatly.
Are you one of those guys whom the casinos want
to kick out, along with the "card counters"
trying to beat the house at Blackjack
using computers in their shoes?
> all i need to do now is figure how to get 48gx programs
> into 49g+. thanks
What percentage is the thanks? ;-)
UserRPL (programs readable in the calc's Edit line):
o Transfer in *ascii* format from 48GX into a computer.
o Transfer from computer in *ascii* format to the 49G+
(with 49G+ pre-set to RPN mode and "Approximate" mode).
Problem areas: Any SYSEVAL/LIBEVAL are very often *incompatible*
(and dangerous), and slight other tweaks are sometimes necessary,
but otherwise it could be completely problem-free.
Binary programs (generally saying "External" in some places
if editing is attempted on calculator) and "Libraries":
o Need Library splitting, decompiling, careful review...
o Unless HPCONV just happens to work:
http://www.hpcalc.org/details.php?id=3799
Just send me an electronic commission check, thanks!
[r->] [OFF]
arturo
i've only been a small nuisence to casinos. but i am one of those
idiots that has to try and win money where you're not supposed
to. i posted a lot on gamblersglen.com about electronic assisted
roulette play until i was kicked off the site for crashing it when
someone started posting as me.
i had my 48gx programmed to cardcount but working that hard
for maybe a 1 % advantage is as bad as having a job.
seriously tho thanks for the time you took for the info and also
seriously- what kind of cable and where can you get it.
Arturo
John H Meyers
> Now if I just knew what cables to use.
Did you get a 49G+ without accompanying cable?
It uses a common standard USB "mini" camera/MP3 cable,
such as: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00016W6UK
(hopefully the larger end fits your computer somewhere :)
As to HP48 serial cables (which generally did not come with calcs,
but instead with optional connection kits or sometimes with 49G):
http://holyjoe.net/hp/cable.htm
(hopefully the DB9 end also fits your computer somewhere :)
[Dear JKH: that table is mighty hard to find, have you ever sent it
to www.hpcalc.org? -- I couldn't find it there either!]
Some vendors:
http://www.palmtoppaper.com [right here in Fairfield IA]
http://www.samsoncables.com [Samson was the "strong arm" guy?]
http://www.samsoncables.com/catalog/prodDetail.cfm?Prod_ID=195&Sku=SCHP48
https://www.calcpro.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi
See "Cables & Adapters: HP 48 to PC (4 pin to DB 9)"
> I try and win money where you're not supposed to.
At least you're not on trial with the Enron guys.
> i had my 48gx programmed to cardcount but working that hard
> for maybe a 1 % advantage is as bad as having a job :)
I've known a guy here who used to freelance as a dealer in Vegas
every now and then, but he preferred to come back and stay here.
Another guy here was once strictly a "day trader," but now he's
a way short gambler, so he doesn't sleep nights any more, either :)
If all else fails, type the programs -- the keys should last
at least that long, even if some store dusted off an old package
when you came along (and your warranty's still good, just in time
to get metal discs, which you could use for chips in a pinch :)
Good luck!
John H Meyers
Roulette figures prominently
in this scene and lyrics to "What's the use?"
from the 1956 musical "Candide"
(dazzlingly re-staged in 2004 at Lincoln Center, NYC,
and re broadcast on PBS one year ago)
Lillian Hellman and Hugh Wheeler's original/new script,
Dorothy Parker and Stephen Sondheim
contributing original and new lyrics,
Leonard Bernstein's score,
Kristin Chenoweth and Patti LuPone on the stage...
heck, what am I doing not watching it right now?
http://www.geocities.com/bernsteincandide/56libretto2-2.html
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007WFXZI
(Actual performance in 2004, not 1972!)
[r->] [OFF]
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
X
> Methinks that HP is now facing a Big Test, with three possible
> outcomes. (1) If they advertise their former flaws, they FAIL the test
> in the eyes and pocketbooks of their shareholders. (2) If they refuse
> to replace bad calcs with good ones, saying "Sorry, they're out of
> warranty" then they FAIL the test in the eyes of their customers. (3)
> If and only if they quietly but graciously replace faulty ones with
> good ones for those customers who request it, no matter how old the
> hp49g+ is, will they PASS the test. To my mind, this is not only a
> commercial issue, but also a legal issue, and most importantly, an
> ethical issue.
>
> The above is my opinion only. Other opinons intelligently shared are
> eagerly welcomed.
2)
the only way to survive in US legal jungle
Jean-Yves Avenard
> John- thank you also. now if i just knew what cables to use.
>
difference when playing roulette.
Counting card is one thing, guessing where the ball will stop based on
where it stopped before is another.
JY
Kevin
not work at all. The keyboard still misses keys, still beats TI by a mile.
Just have to remember to press hard on the keys.
<m...@here.there> wrote in message news:e1iu8k$2de$1...@nntp0.reith.bbc.co.uk...
> Eric Rechlin wrote:
>> In summary: Get a 49G+ with a serial number of CNA534 or higher, install
>> ROM 2.06, and you should never have any more missed keystrokes or broken
>> keys.
>>
>
> Hi Eric,
>
> I know you can help with the second point but what about the first? What
> serials do the ones you stock have? I'd hate to import one from the USA to
> UK to find that it was no better than the one I had before!
>
> Tra
>
> Meh.
Joe Horn
> http://holyjoe.net/hp/cable.htm
> JKH: that table is mighty hard to find, have you ever
> sent it to www.hpcalc.org? -- I couldn't find it there either!
Gosh, I'd forgotten all about that table. It's so old that it assumes
that "HP49" means the original 49G. Matter of fact, it's the first
link on my HP49G web page < http://holyjoe.net/hp/HP49.htm > which ALSO
makes that no-longer-true assumption. Time to infuse some new blood
into those old pages! Oh goody, something to do over the Easter
holiday! :-)
No, I don't remember submitting the Cable Table to Eric Rechlin's site,
but I don't remember what I had for breakfast either. :-b
arturo
results.
what you can do is take timings of ball and wheel passing a reference
mark (total of 4 timings) after dealer releases ball - its like setting
2 clocks-
and then program calcs what stud ball will fall on and what numbers are
under ball (add some for ball travel) and get a beeped bet cue with
time
to make bets before no more bets are called. thats why getting a bet
cue
in 0.5 seconds with 49g+ is so much better than 2.5 secs with 48gx. of
course you must have previously collected data on the ball and wheel
you
are playing.
it is simple enuf in theory but i would advise anyone to NOT bite
this electric
eel. i'm where i want to be with the programming after 3 years and the
speed
of a 49g+ will finish things up but you go to jail if caught using on
mainland USA
which puts you on cruise ships or other continents to avoid jail.
Arturo
Gene
John H Meyers wrote:
> Bankrupt HP over temporarily shortened battery run time
> in a very minor product used for math class or homework?
>
> They had to throw out some HP48Gii (or replace ROM in unsold units?),
> revise a ROM download for the rest -- how does it compare with
> all kinds of product recalls? It *was* recalled (even though some
> dealers apparently didn't get word) and ROM update released
> for others, wasn't it?
Gene: Hi John.
Nope, I was speaking more generally. Companies just don't do this at
all if they can possibly avoid it because of the legal system.
"defective" 49g+ calculators might not bankrupt HP, but the lawyers
would be glad to take a large amount of $$ in some class-action
lawsuit.
Because of this attitute by lawyers and some customers, companies
rarely proclaim any mistakes like this.
Who suffers? Well, companies do when they are targeted by these
lawyers, but in the end, the normal customer does because they don't
get an updated product easily.
There were a limited number of 48gII's that were in the channel at that
time. Much smaller issue than all the 49g and 49g+ calculators out
there.
don't get me wrong...I was glad they recalled the 48gII w/the
batteryproblem, but it is an exception not a rule.
Gerson W. Barbosa
Jean-Yves Avenard wrote:
> John H Meyers wrote:
> > I think that calculators are more anti-Christian, given that
>
> let's talk about the "SIN" key instead...
>
Blessed are the calculators who have SIN, COS they shall be forgiven.
Bad pun, sorry!
Virgil
Jean-Yves Avenard <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
It is not based on where it stopped before but on the dynamics of the
wheel and ball on the particular spin, and has been done successfully
enough to have made the odds favor the bettor against the house.
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
news:1145109780....@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Sorry?! All you can say is "sorry!" ?
It's CLEAR that now I'm MAD ;-)
Arnaud Amiel
"Jean-Yves Avenard" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:4abn2lF...@individual.net...
> arturo wrote:
>> John- thank you also. now if i just knew what cables to use.
>>
> I have a hard time believing that any computer system could make any
> difference when playing roulette.
It used to work...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Jaggers
and maybe still does...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4071289.stm
Anyway, I am sure there are easier ways to make money.
Arnaud
Arnaud Amiel
Joe Horn
DANG! I *tried* to resist, but I couldn't, even though it's the day
before Easter. So here goes...
Here's the Canonical List of RPL Paths to Enlightenment according to
various belief systems:
Scientology: CLEAR
Scientism: FACT
Buddhism: DETACH
Islam: CONVERT
Christianity: CROSS
Judaism: SCROLL
Catholicism: ^ (Repeated multiplication! BWAH Hah hah!)
Irish Catholicism: BAR <I can say that 'cause I *are* one>
Baptists: JORDAN
TM: CENTR, EXPAND
Gnostics: INFORM
Pythagoreans: ABS((a,b))
Epicureans: MENU, aka PiLIST
Tree Huggers: TRUNC
Philosophers: TRUTH
Sun Worshippers: TAN
Skin Worshippers: HALFTAN
Hair Worshippers: PERM
Weight Watchers: SCALE
Money Worshippers: RAND <in SA anyhow>
Power Worshippers: RANK
Drug Addicts: POKEARM
Atheists: None. When they die they just ROLL OVER AND ROT. >:-O
Disclaimer: None. The above is Eternal Truth. If you don't agree, then
you're a flaming heretic. Switch to TI. :-b
-jkh- -the "jk" stands for "just kidding"-
Gerson W. Barbosa
> Hair Worshippers: PERM
or COMB
> Atheists: None. When they die they just ROLL OVER AND ROT. >:-O
>
I just hope you have a milder one for Agnostics :-)
Peace on you Brother Joe (and Brother-Peter)!
GWB
Tony Hutchins
-=[ Sun, 16.4.06 12:11 p.m. +1200 (NZT) ]=-
Hello Joe Horn, <joe...@holyjoe.net>
05h ago, on Sat, 15.4.06 at 12:10 p.m. -0700, you wrote
in message ID <1145128224....@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> :
> > Blessed are the calculators who have SIN, COS they shall be forgiven.
>
> DANG! I *tried* to resist, but I couldn't, even though it's the day
> before Easter. So here goes...
>
> Here's the Canonical List of RPL Paths to Enlightenment according to
> various belief systems:
[...]
LOL!
> Drug Addicts: POKEARM
> Atheists: None. When they die they just ROLL OVER AND ROT. >:-O
An Atheist would respond by attempting to undermine all faith
with perhaps the most common RPL command: DUP <G>
--
Tony
John H Meyers
> Companies just don't do this at all if they can
> possibly avoid it because of the legal system.
>
> "defective" 49g+ calculators might not bankrupt HP,
> but the lawyers would be glad to take a large amount
> of $$ in some class-action lawsuit.
No need to ever acknowledge wrongdoing;
just offer various creative, sales-promoting bonuses
to previous early-adopter customers.
For example, a software purchase or maintenance contract
often comes with "upgrade insurance," to supply any later
version free of the charges assessed new customers (or even
repeat customers who didn't care to buy the "insurance").
There was also once a "lifetime" flatware brand,
which guaranteed "free" replacement pieces for a lifetime
(for a shipping & handling fee :)
Just combine the above -- offer customers who purchased between
date X and date Y a "free trade-in," just send in your old calc,
plus a reasonable S&H fee (which everyone here says they'd
be happy to pay, anyway), and back comes a newer one;
to sweeten the deal, how about having them pre-installed
with some extra goodies -- the latest ROM, of course,
and say a Geometry library, or perhaps some "commemorative
edition" decal on the face, which comes only with this deal?
Can one be sued for offering special deals to past customers?
What's the matter with all those marketing geniuses;
this is just when they should step up and do something creative
to brighten the brand image, rather than hide in a hole
with back-room lawyers.
[r->] [OFF]
ME
"Kevin" <kje...@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:L820g.5863$kg....@news02.roc.ny...
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
news:1080946...@news.clear.net.nz...
Those who believe in resurrection need to have LASTARG enabled
doug...@gmail.com
after the warrenty ended and they didnt want the old one back and it
still works the keys feel like they are unhinging at a rapid pace,
although they feel funny they still work. I actually just called them
to see if I could just buy the keyboard assembly and fix the Calc
myself. The 1 they sent me has Serial # of cna525... So it sounds like
its shortly before the latest and greatest but atleast HP did
something, So I will use my old 1 as long as I can and then switch to
the new 1. So in other words HPs not totally ignoring the problem
although altimatly the would of sent me one of the CNA 53.. or newer
ones.
Joe Horn
Perhaps it's the '?' command. Here's my reasoning for that:
"A-gnostic" means "not knowing", so at first blush it would seem that
'X' (the symbol for Unknown Value) would be perfect for agnostics. But
agnostics believe that God's existence is not only unknown but is also
unknowable, unlike X, which can often be solved for. Therefore
agnosticism is more like '?' which is not only unknown but is also
unknowable. ;-)
-Joe-
Horn's Theorem: There is either one unknowable truth, or none at all.
Kevin
"ME" <abc...@nonodock.net> wrote in message
news:1243rh7...@corp.supernews.com...
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
>> I just hope you have a milder one for Agnostics :-)
>
> Perhaps it's the '?' command. Here's my reasoning for that:
>
> "A-gnostic" means "not knowing", so at first blush it would seem that
> 'X' (the symbol for Unknown Value) would be perfect for agnostics. But
> agnostics believe that God's existence is not only unknown but is also
> unknowable, unlike X, which can often be solved for. Therefore
> agnosticism is more like '?' which is not only unknown but is also
> unknowable. ;-)
Joe does it again: ? is the perfect answer
Those who only believe in money
can choose from different monetary signs
> -Joe-
> Horn's Theorem: There is either one unknowable truth, or none at all.
humor again?
Father knows very well that Jesus = The Truth
and you can know Jesus...yes, You!
John H Meyers
> Father [Horn] knows very well that Jesus = The Truth
> and you can know Jesus...yes, You!
Is this from the very same person who just said
"you're off-topic and off newsgroup"?
It's actually fine with me to relate all material details of life
to the whole of life, including the subjective self within; in fact,
I consider it one of the most significant aspects of complete education,
and warmly welcome anything that adds experience of those connections
to anyone's awareness.
Just want to call attention to the values of mutual acceptance;
keep a level playing field, good brother, and thanks.
[r->] [OFF]
ME
The Phantom
>My second HP49G+ both with serial # starting CNA534...
>
I just saw a CNA542 at the local university book store.
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
news:op.s74cv...@news.cis.dfn.de...
> On Sun, 16 Apr 2006 15:09:14 -0500, from Veli-Pekka (Brother-Peter):
>
>> Father [Horn] knows very well that Jesus = The Truth
>> and you can know Jesus...yes, You!
>
> Is this from the very same person who just said
> "you're off-topic and off newsgroup"?
The weight of the SIN (key) is too depressing...
> It's actually fine with me to relate all material details of life
> to the whole of life, including the subjective self within; in fact,
> I consider it one of the most significant aspects of complete education,
> and warmly welcome anything that adds experience of those connections
> to anyone's awareness.
>
> Just want to call attention to the values of mutual acceptance;
> keep a level playing field, good brother, and thanks.
I apologize
Thank you FOR the PUSH to the right PATH
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
X
> Drug Addicts: POKEARM
Now what was that lib number again?
(to get the MENU)
Steen Schmidt
> Best posting since the 49g+ was released!
>
> I am just disappointed that Eric does not post more often. But I guess
> he is a busy man.
Not all that is known may be discussed in this forum. I'm sure Eric
(and others) would have liked to clarify many issues over the years,
but it's unfortunately not always possible.
And, as well as brand faith (HP-zealots?) brought forgiveness for many
shortcomings in the HP48 and prior calculators (and associated 3rd
party software), the current state of HP-hatred brings so much
negativity as to stop almost every effort to improve things. It's hard
to maintain a drive when even advances are frowned upon, for not being
the ultimate step but merely a great leap forward.
For instance, several of the people in the former ACO are in fact still
fighting for improving the current HP calculator products, even though
they were treated as they were by HP management. And still, the same
people are the ones being ridiculed the most in the various discussion
boards (whether it being a TI of HP group). Go figure.
Regards
Steen
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
news:xn0el93c...@news.tele.dk...
X
> For instance, several of the people in the former ACO are in fact still
> fighting for improving the current HP calculator products, even though
> they were treated as they were by HP management. And still, the same
> people are the ones being ridiculed the most in the various discussion
> boards (whether it being a TI of HP group). Go figure.
they ridicule anyone daring to suggest anything beyound official specs
The greatest pleasure seems to be
when while holding inside information about OS
which is not available to the general public
the developers is able to insult someone
daring to guess anything about the internals
while the secrets remain (as well as insults)
Go figure.
Jean-Yves Avenard
> they were treated as they were by HP management. And still, the same
> people are the ones being ridiculed the most in the various discussion
> boards (whether it being a TI of HP group). Go figure.
Too true.
It always give me a giggle to read in the TI newsgroup that *I* (they
always explicitly state JYA) badly conceived the 49G because I only
wrote new code in ML which is impossible to support blah blah.
What else could you do on a 4Mhz machine? show me any C code on the TI84
running at 12Mhz.
Anyway, only ported code from ALG48 and MetaKernel was in ML, most new
code was written in SysRPL
JY
Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
Yeah!
Too bad that you did not write *everything* in ML
Now it's time to correct that!
Write a new ARMkernel in pure ARM ML
The speed increase should be phenomenal
AND
since the code maintainance has been easy so far
why would it change after this change
Smiley-storage here:
;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)
;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)