QonoS update
Jean-Yves Avenard
Many people have been wondering what was happening with this exciting
project and I thought instead of having people to hang out there I
should drop a word.
As you probably know QonoS is based on an Xscale 260 series with 32MB of
Flash ROM, 64MB of SDRAM and 512KB of SRAM
Most applications are running well including the various emulators.
All hardware peripherals are working properly (including the USB host
controller)
The main reason it seems that very few has been happening is a
manufacturing and financial problem.
The minimum build quantity is 5000. With an expected price of $350, you
can imagine the amount of cash required to finance the first build.
We were hoping on letters of credit from suppliers, but obviously as
with all new products few people are willing to take the risk.
So we have QonoS prototype boards working, but no manufacturing units.
Regards
Jean-Yves
VPN
news:3b75mnF...@individual.net...
Thank you for the news, Jean-Yves!
So _all_ you need is a few MegaBucks (instead of MegaBugs)
If I had the money I would showel it in.
How about a short term loan for 100.000,00 USD?
Naah! That's simply not enough...
I think you should build about 20000 devices on the first run
Hey!
Who can borrow 10+10 MegaBucks for Hydrix for 6 months + 12 months
???
VPN
PS: The above rambling is to just show how it is...
I mean - to get a better hold on what it means - to myself
PPS:
Do continue to expand it and iron out the bugs?
PPPS: Are there any shares - I may want to buy !!!
Calvin
in progress reports. I hope you'll update us periodically in the
future.
Scott Chapin
Thank you, very much for the update.
Scott Chapin
Eric Smith
> The minimum build quantity is 5000. With an expected price of $350,
> you can imagine the amount of cash required to finance the first build.
Only by imagining what the cost (not the expected price) is. If the
cost is $150, you need $750,000 to build the run.
> We were hoping on letters of credit from suppliers,
Who provided your funding for the R&D to get to this stage? Didn't they
have any plan for manufacturing other than letters of credit?
Best regards,
Eric
Jean-Yves Avenard
> Only by imagining what the cost (not the expected price) is. If the
> cost is $150, you need $750,000 to build the run.
I really wish the build cost would be $150 :)
>
> Who provided your funding for the R&D to get to this stage? Didn't they
> have any plan for manufacturing other than letters of credit?
Gerald and I funded the whole project..
We had several plans, none of them worked but there's still very good hopes
Jean-Yves
Barry Allen
Jean-Yves Avenard <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
Is there any way this can be offered as a build it yourself kit?
I'd pay $ 150 for all the parts and software!
Eric Smith
> I really wish the build cost would be $150 :)
If you want to sell it for $350, and not lose your shirts, it had
better be.
>> Who provided your funding for the R&D to get to this stage? Didn't
>> they have any plan for manufacturing other than letters of credit?
> Gerald and I funded the whole project..
Oh. That explains it. Pretty good progress for a self-funded startup.
> We had several plans, none of them worked but there's still very good hopes
Best of luck on that! I'd really like to buy one.
Eric
Cockpit Colin
> can imagine the amount of cash required to finance the first build.
> We were hoping on letters of credit from suppliers, but obviously as
> with all new products few people are willing to take the risk.
JPA - you might like to clarify if the $350 is USD or AUS.
VPN
news:w3L3e.15235$1S4.1...@news.xtra.co.nz...
naturally USD and that is the minimum, I expect 399 at first
localization costs money, marketing cost money, etc...
VPN - opinions only
PS: http://www.hpcalc.org/qonos.php
Price:
Over US$350
Thomas Deniau
> The minimum build quantity is 5000. With an expected price of $350, you
> can imagine the amount of cash required to finance the first build.
> We were hoping on letters of credit from suppliers, but obviously as
> with all new products few people are willing to take the risk.
Maybe you should try and accept pre-orders ?
--
Thomas Deniau
Cockpit Colin
USD -v- AUD; not JYA and VPN!
"VPN" <DROP...@THIS.dlc.fi> wrote in message
news:nlM3e.6967$nA....@reader1.news.jippii.net...
Deperez
you
>> can imagine the amount of cash required to finance the first build.
>> We were hoping on letters of credit from suppliers, but obviously
as
>> with all new products few people are willing to take the risk.
I think to sell shares is a VERY GOOD IDEA !
There is a lot of people around here willing to buy Qonos and better
to buy Hidrix shares !!! of course you should NEVER loose the control
of the company !!!!
You should NOT have to go "Public" because this is much more expensive
than the very first try of 5,000 units.
Just send an e-mail to all your "HP-fans" and will collect a very
interesting amount "with no cost". If you want to make a "survey" of
how much funds you will collect ... just ask here how many people
wants to buy Qonos and have a "Christmas Bonus" in one year when all
the units have being sold !!!
Just an idea !!!
Daniel
Steen Schmidt
> Mind you, having said that, the two are practically the same these
> days!
>
> USD -v- AUD; not JYA and VPN!
Not in Denmark. Here, if we put USD at 100 % value, AUD are at 77 % and
EUR at 130 %.
Regards
Steen
J. Greer
would require extensive integration to remain palmsize. It is possible
to manually build some surface mount projects. I doubt that this would
be one of them.
Jeff
Cockpit Colin
troubleshooting page ;)
D Herring
What follows are a few quick thoughts.
> I think to sell shares is a VERY GOOD IDEA !
This appears to be a good idea, but its actually very bad.
Offering "shares" to the general public is a good way to land in the
slammer. You can sell to family, close acquaintances, co-workers, and
select venture-capital types (up to 500 people?) without "going public",
but offering shares over the internet definitely counts as public. From
what I've heard, the people who regulate this stuff make the IRS seem
friendly.
However, selling pre-orders should be perfectly legal, and avoids the
possibility of a hostile takeover. You might even open up auctions
(ebay?) to bid-up sales for the first units out the door. The only
downside with pre-orders is that you must ship or re-imburse.
Could you possibly build and sell a few prototype units to generate more
interest and get some money flowing? It sounds like you have a product,
but are missing the market analysis and sales plan needed to get
funding. Demonstrated sales may open doors to more funding and may
results in helpful community feedback.
What has your personal bank said about loans? Then again, $1.5 million
is probably a bit too much for them.
I assume you've already checked with the Small Business Administration
(www.sba.gov)? Is there a nearby university or research park that could
help?
Later,
Daniel
Jean-Yves Avenard
> I assume you've already checked with the Small Business Administration
> (www.sba.gov)? Is there a nearby university or research park that could
> help?
Remember that we are an Australian company, so the US regulations don't
apply.
Pre-orders is a different story, the minimum build we can do at the
factory is 5,000 they won't accept any orders for less than that (or
charge an enormous amount of money for it)...
I doubt I can get 5000 pre-order and let people who did purchase it wait
for several months for everything to happen.
Jean-Yves
Jaap Versteegh
> factory is 5,000 they won't accept any orders for less than that (or
> charge an enormous amount of money for it)...
> I doubt I can get 5000 pre-order and let people who did purchase it wait
> for several months for everything to happen.
Just sell the thing to a big company !
You people are developing a thing like Qonos for fun right ? Otherwise you
would have chosen another profession...
Doing production, marketing, sales, customer support, etc is no fun, not to
the people of a high tech company anyway.
> Jean-Yves
Jaap
Steen Schmidt
> You people are developing a thing like Qonos for fun right ?
I doubt it - not exclusively anyway. Do you have any idea what it takes
to develop something like the Qonos?
> Otherwise you would have chosen another profession... Doing
> production, marketing, sales, customer support, etc is no fun, not to
> the people of a high tech company anyway.
Why not? Building your own company can be quite a challenge and very
rewarding (albeit expensive and risky).
For me it's all about diversity - I don't want to sit around
programming all day, or designing electronics, or planning and
supervising work, or managing finances all day. I like some of
everything, and at times some parts use up more time than others.
But most importantly I value my family and other personal hobbies
(motorcycles for instance) higher than any of the above (at this point
in my life).
Priorities change...
Regards
Steen
VPN
Try it out!
Make them numbered collectors item!
I hereby order number one (# 1)
Where can I send my 350 USD?
[VPN]
Larry Smith
It occurs to me that with the changing of the guard at HP, HP itself
might be very interested in purchasing a spiffy new startup with a
completely designed and nearly ready for production calculator with
a strong HP affiliation.
--
.-. .-. .---. .---. .-..-.|Experts in Linux/Unix: www.WildOpenSource.com
| |__ / | \| |-< | |-< > / |"Making the bazaar more commonplace"
`----'`-^-'`-'`-'`-'`-' `-' |Check out my new novel: "Cloud Realm" at:
home:www.smith-house.org:8000|http://www.smith-house.org:8000/books/list.html
Jaap Versteegh
> I doubt it - not exclusively anyway. Do you have any idea what it takes
> to develop something like the Qonos?
I think I do. I meant the main drive for developing it was other than a
market opportunity.
Regards,
Jaap
Volker Neurath
>Just sell the thing to a big company !
To HP? scnr
Well, i think if they would sell it to a big company, it will get
dusty in a drawer...
Volker
--
Besides, i'm of the opinon, that TCPA has to be stopped
Steve Sousa
> factory is 5,000 they won't accept any orders for less than that (or
> charge an enormous amount of money for it)...
What part of the project has a 5000 minimum? the plastics molding, the
electronics or both?
I know a very good electronics assembly house here in Portugal, i can
also ask how the stuff goes in the netherlands.
The electronics can most certainly be done for less than 5000 units,
about molding, i've no idea.
--
Steve Sousa
Gary Owen
be!
It sure would be nice to see a company like Hydrix become a major
calculator supplier. I for one wouldn't consider teaming and/or
selling the Qonos design rights to a large corporation -- unless there
is absolutely no other alternative.
Look at how Microsoft got started. They developed something for IBM
because IBM was too big to see the value of a PC operating system of
their own. (I wonder what they would say now)
Look at how Apple Computer got started. They "developed" what was
originally conceived at Xerox. Go figure.
If JYA ever decides to take Qonos pre-orders, COUNT ME IN!
(HP has had their chance and enough of my money)
Regards,
Gary
Eric Smith
> Look at how Microsoft got started. They developed something for IBM
> because IBM was too big to see the value of a PC operating system of
> their own.
1. Microsoft got started and was fairly successful for four years before
they had any major involvement with IBM.
2. IBM's concern was time-to-market. The whole PC operation was a
shoestring, quick-and-dirty operation that was not expected to sell
very many units, and they were already "late to the party", so the
time it would take to write a new OS was not justifiable.
3. IBM provided not one, but THREE different operating systems for the
PC, at the customer's choice. Only one of those, IBM-DOS, was
licensed from Microsoft. But IBM-DOS was inexpensive, so that's
what most customers purchased.
4. Microsoft's current near-total market dominance is most likely the
result of the success of their Windows product, not MS-DOS. Though
Windows was originally hosted on MS-DOS, if things had been
different and a non-Microsoft OS had been prevalent, Microsoft would
have offered Windows hosted on that OS.
> (I wonder what they would say now)
I'm only guessing, but I suspect that if they'd had any idea that they'd
sell a gazillion units...
1. They would have made the PC hardware "closed": no published
schematics or theory of operation, and only very limited
documentation on the expansion slots.
2. They would have written their own OS, which would have been
better than IBM-DOS in some ways and worse in others.
3. They would have made the PC software "closed": no published
BIOS listing, and only very limited BIOS and OS interface
documentation.
The end result would have been:
The IBM PC would probably not have dominated the market. Despite having
IBM's name on it, a major part of what made the PC popular was the
amazing breadth of third-party hardware and software, which was a direct
result of the openness of the software and hardware.
Contrast to the market acceptance of the PS/2: nearly none at all. Even
IBM had to backpedal and resume offering AT clones.
Deperez
You may try EVERYTHING !!!
Just like Qonos, that work with Linux, TI and RPN emulators,
"multifunctional"
Pre orders, soft credit from fans (some people will prefer invest on
Hidrix to HP), selling shares on a "non Public Bases" (you do not need
100 people to rise USD$500 thousand), ... bingo, ... selling candies,
... etc.
You just got to know you have a good product and try to get it
funded!!!, but don´t loose your mind, [should be fun :)], or the
control of YOUR company.
Some of my best computerized friends has had fund raising up to USD$6
million, and lost the controll of the company, so after 2 - 3 years
company just disapper.
They got a LOT of money, but loose the fun of creating nice
interesting incredible devices. Now they have fancy cars, houses,
worldwide trips, and whatever you can imagine, but are not happy,
because what they like must to do was to make this incredible devices
that no longer can because they sold the controll of their company.
Since INTEL set a producing plant in Costa Rica, we got down here
several companies that could produce a "first shot" of Qonos... for a
part of the Hidrix shares .... (they are producing car alarms, and
medical instruments in that way)
If you want I will ask them for "minimum conditions" too.... maybe
they can produce just 3,000 and do not need that much funds to begin
and test the market!!!
Anyway, just try everything your are confortable with, and let us know
how we can help.
Daniel
Steve Sousa
> factory is 5,000 they won't accept any orders for less than that (or
> charge an enormous amount of money for it)...
What part of the project has a 5000 minimum? the plastics molding, the
electronics or both?
I know a very good electronics assembly house here in Portugal, i can also
ask how the stuff goes in the netherlands.
The electronics most certainly be done for less than 5000 units, about
Joel Kolstad
news:0oadnRUKBMM...@casema.nl...
> You people are developing a thing like Qonos for fun right ? Otherwise you
> would have chosen another profession...
This is a sad commentary on how most people choose their professions these
days! But there are still plenty of 'technical' people out there who
thoroughly ENJOY their jobs -- and get paid good money to perform them --
while simultaneously having fun.
> Doing production, marketing, sales, customer support, etc is no fun, not
> to the people of a high tech company anyway.
You can find people who find all of these items 'fun' -- just probably not
the same ones who were in your modern physics or analog design classes. :-)
Personally, I'd gladly pre-order a Qonos (or 2 or 5 or perhaps even 10 if I
could swing it -- I'd re-sell the extras at cost later).
---Joel Kolstad
Brandon Del Bel
know I'd go for it.
MSCHAEF.COM
Brandon Del Bel <nesci...@gmail.com> wrote:
>You might be surprised how many people would be willing to pre-order. I
>know I'd go for it.
I'd pre-order too. I have some software I'd really like to see running
on a platform like that.
-Mike
--
http://www.mschaef.com
Jake Schwartz
I'm sure many folks are familiar with the "Bring Back the HP15C" web
site located at http://hp15c.org/ .... Jean-Yves, perhaps it would
make sense to have a similar web page on the Hydrix website, inquiring
as to who would order a QonoS....It wouldn't take much to sponsor the
page and collect the names and emails, and perhaps there would be
enough interested people to make the effort worthwhile.
Jake Schwartz jakes<at>pahhc<dot>org
Joel Kolstad
news:1112895706.3...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> I'm sure many folks are familiar with the "Bring Back the HP15C" web
> site located at http://hp15c.org/
Hmm... 2802 people claiming they'd buy 15311 15C's... if push came to shove,
that MIGHT come to 5000 actual purchases... speculation?
People might recall my rants about the lack of what could have been many
easily added features to the HP-33s and the suggestion that there is also
demand for a somewhat lower powered programmable scientific calculator (than
the HP-48/49 or Qonos) -- in my mind that's the same sort of thing the
HP-15C guys are after.
And the rectangular layout is pretty cool...
---Joel Kolstad
MSCHAEF.COM
Jake Schwartz <ja...@magpage.com> wrote:
...
>I'm sure many folks are familiar with the "Bring Back the HP15C" web
>site located at http://hp15c.org/ .... Jean-Yves, perhaps it would
>make sense to have a similar web page on the Hydrix website, inquiring
>as to who would order a QonoS....It wouldn't take much to sponsor the
>page and collect the names and emails, and perhaps there would be
>enough interested people to make the effort worthwhile.
Problem is: signing a petition (or posting to USENET) is easy. Also,
nothing about it guarantees that the money would actually show up when
it's time to pay. If Hydrix needs to raise ~$1M to get this off the
ground, that's not going to do much to convince banks or VC's.
-Mike
--
http://www.mschaef.com
Eric Smith
> Problem is: signing a petition (or posting to USENET) is easy. Also,
> nothing about it guarantees that the money would actually show up when
> it's time to pay.
Could be solved by allowing the potential buyers to put the money
(or a certain portion of it) in escrow. If the buyer doesn't get the
product by a specified date, the money would be refunded.
thegoldbug
I agree and would also offer US$351.00 for serial number 1. So there you
go, you could begin auctioning off serial numbers to collectors, (1, 10,
100, 1000, etc) which would bring in a little more money. I hope something
happens fairly soon as my PalmIIIx is starting act flakey and will need to
be replaced soon.
thegoldbug
MSCHAEF.COM
Cameron Downunder
> Most applications are running well including the various emulators.
>
> All hardware peripherals are working properly (including the USB host
controller)
On the technical side, how is the datalogging capabilities going. Can
you datalog two inputs??
I am wondering if I know you from Radiophysics Sydney early 1980's.
Regards
Cameron Downunder.
Jean-Yves Avenard
> On the technical side, how is the datalogging capabilities going. Can
> you datalog two inputs??
The sled had 4 digital ports (4 IOs each) and 4 analog port (2 IOs each)
Jean-Yves
werty
In todays govt "regulated" market , the only way to
raise money for a box is to be "on the inside" with
a crony , with a mediocre box .
Thus good boxes are killed 2 ways ..... The cronies are affraid
you'll compete , so they cry to govt who pul strings to stop
you ..... or the lenders are affraid for the same reasons .
There is only one way ... offshore ... maybe the gov't will
not be so "thorough " ha ha ....
Hong Kong .... Taiwan ..... But they have cronies also
so you are outa luck .
This is why you did not see a small PC drawing 1/4 the power
of a notebook , with FORTH 10 years ago when everyone knew
exactly how to do it , they had all the parts , they had the money
.....
But My Uncle is a bad ass dude .
I tried to start a Radio Shack long ago ...... same problem Gov't
had corp R.S. in their pocket or vice versa ... They told me they'd
hold back inventory , if i had good volume , then they'd pick up the
laese
and make it a high volume "company" store .
werty
werty
Allen Windhorn
> You might be surprised how many people would be willing to pre-order. I
> know I'd go for it.
I would put down $400 NOW for the Calculator LATER if I could be
assured of getting it back if the calculator could not be produced.
An escrow account would allow this. Having a lot of money in escrow
just waiting for production to happen ought to give the bank a better
feeling about the project.
The PPC ROM project for the HP-41 was produced this way.
The first 5000 calculators are going to need a lot of technical
support, which will cost money.
Regards,
Allen
--
Allen Windhorn (507) 345-2782 FAX (507) 345-2805
Kato Engineering (Though I do not speak for Kato)
P.O. Box 8447, N. Mankato, MN 56002
Allen.W...@LSUSA.com
Jake Schwartz
> "Brandon Del Bel" <nesci...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > You might be surprised how many people would be willing to
pre-order. I
> > know I'd go for it.
>
> I would put down $400 NOW for the Calculator LATER if I could be
> assured of getting it back if the calculator could not be produced.
> An escrow account would allow this. Having a lot of money in escrow
> just waiting for production to happen ought to give the bank a better
> feeling about the project.
>
> The PPC ROM project for the HP-41 was produced this way.
>
> The first 5000 calculators are going to need a lot of technical
> support, which will cost money.
>
> Regards,
> Allen
> --
(slightly off topic...)
The PPC ROM project funds were collected in Richard Nelson's checking
account, all quarter million dollars of it. No interest was earned and
I believe this was done with the bank's foreknowledge. Then somehow
later, the IRS discovered this money and [wrongly] concluded that
something fishy was going on. Richard ended up going through a
multi-year nightmare attempting to convince them that this money was
not income and that no taxes should be due. He ultimately lost his
battle and paid thousands of dollars. As usual, no good deed went
unpunished.
Jaap Versteegh
>>would have chosen another profession...
>
> This is a sad commentary on how most people choose their professions these
> days!
On the contrary ! In fact because of economic wealth many people can afford
to choose a job of their liking rather than being forced to do something
against their will for money. I think this is far from sad !
> But there are still plenty of 'technical' people out there who
> thoroughly ENJOY their jobs -- and get paid good money to perform them --
> while simultaneously having fun.
This may be, but I think choosing a tech eduction and job is seldom done for
becoming rich. Alternatively people with an intersest in big money will not
likely choose a tech education.
> You can find people who find all of these items 'fun' -- just probably not
> the same ones who were in your modern physics or analog design classes. :-)
Indeed... I think Jean-Yves might have followed some physics and/or analog
design classes, hence my statements, but what HE thinks is 'fun' I will
leave for himself to decide !
> Personally, I'd gladly pre-order a Qonos (or 2 or 5 or perhaps even 10 if I
> could swing it -- I'd re-sell the extras at cost later).
Me too,
Jaap Versteegh
Eric Smith
> This may be, but I think choosing a tech eduction and job is seldom
> done for becoming rich. Alternatively people with an intersest in big
> money will not likely choose a tech education.
A friend who is a CS professor says that >90% of his students have little
aptitude for or actual interest in CS. He thinks that they signed up
precisely because they think there's big money to be made without hard
work.
thegoldbug
"Eric Smith" <er...@brouhaha.com> wrote in message
news:qh4qe5i...@ruckus.brouhaha.com...
I need to jump in here. Given the 'low ambition and quality' of system
support people I've relied upon, worked around and was friends with I would
have to agree. Many are grossly overpaid and underworked (note they keep
very busy though). Nothing personal. I wish I was in such a position.
thegoldbug
VPN
news:fgF8e.920$J11...@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "Eric Smith" <er...@brouhaha.com> wrote in message
> news:qh4qe5i...@ruckus.brouhaha.com...
>> Jaap Versteegh <j.r.versteegh_removethis_at_casema_dot_nl> writes:
>> > This may be, but I think choosing a tech eduction and job is seldom
>> > done for becoming rich. Alternatively people with an intersest in big
>> > money will not likely choose a tech education.
>>
>> A friend who is a CS professor says that >90% of his students have little
>> aptitude for or actual interest in CS. He thinks that they signed up
>> precisely because they think there's big money to be made without hard
>> work.
without hard work?
Boy are they going to be suprised!
> I need to jump in here. Given the 'low ambition and quality' of system
> support people I've relied upon, worked around and was friends with I
> would
> have to agree. Many are grossly overpaid and underworked (note they keep
> very busy though). Nothing personal. I wish I was in such a position.
Naaah! You're just being jelous...some may naturally brag
but in reality CS work is hard and overtime is seldom paid
What thi has toi do with calcs
Hmmm. you can use hp 17bII+ for calculating your income tax...
[VPN]
Joel Kolstad
I was a teaching assistant last year for undergraduate electronics classes,
and I agree. True, people don't go into "tech education" to become _rich_,
but they do go in because it does pay quite well.
Granted, you can't really blame people for going into a particular career
because they're first and foremost trying to insure that they have a good
life without monetary worries, can support their families, etc., but the
lack of an actual strong interest in one's chosen career is just
unfortunate, IMO. I can't help but imagine it contributes greatly to the
generally low quality of software, for instance, that's so common these
days.
A decent share of the blame for this has to be placed on industry, for
requiring people to have four (or five) year college degrees for jobs that
realistically shouldn't require it. The "college experience" in this
country has become something of a rite of passage and -- for many people --
the education acquired during that time ends up having little relevance to
their careers. This has pressured many colleges to dumb down their classes,
which is unfortunate for the relatively small number of people who really
ARE deeply interested in their chosen degree paths and want to be uber-geek
programmers, engineers, scientists, etc.
At the end of the day, it's something of a cultural shift and perhaps not
inherently bad. However, I think it's a fair statement to say that in many
cases the value of a college education today is nothing compared to what it
was some 50 years ago.
---Joel Kolstad
Joel Kolstad
news:_LF8e.6613$ij7....@reader1.news.jippii.net...
> What thi has toi do with calcs
Compare the quality of the older HP products with the current releases.
Heck, compare the HP of today to the one that Bill & Dave started.
I'm not trying to be a curmudgeon here because -- despite what HP may have
become -- there's still plenty of really good, hard-working companies out
there. The Qonos guys, for one!
VPN
news:4JudnaD3nIV...@comcast.com...
I sincerely hope that the Qonos keyboard beats my 49 & PC keyboards
Gerald & Jean-Yves are great anyway
[VPN]
Eric Smith
> This may be, but I think choosing a tech eduction and job is seldom
> done for becoming rich. Alternatively people with an intersest in big
> money will not likely choose a tech education.
I wrote:
> A friend who is a CS professor says that >90% of his students have little
> aptitude for or actual interest in CS. He thinks that they signed up
> precisely because they think there's big money to be made without hard
> work.
thegoldbug wrote:
> I need to jump in here. Given the 'low ambition and quality' of system
> support people I've relied upon, worked around and was friends with I would
> have to agree. Many are grossly overpaid and underworked (note they keep
> very busy though). Nothing personal. I wish I was in such a position.
On the other hand, it seems common for IT support people who are
actually any good to be grossly underpaid and overworked, and to get
laid off at the drop of a hat if a company's financial state declines.
If I were in charge, good IT people would be well rewarded. Same goes
for good administrative assistants; they're typically even more
underpaid.
Eric
Eric Smith
> A friend who is a CS professor says that >90% of his students have little
> aptitude for or actual interest in CS. He thinks that they signed up
> precisely because they think there's big money to be made without hard
> work.
Joel Kolstad wrote:
> I was a teaching assistant last year for undergraduate electronics classes,
> and I agree. True, people don't go into "tech education" to become _rich_,
> but they do go in because it does pay quite well.
>
> Granted, you can't really blame people for going into a particular career
> because they're first and foremost trying to insure that they have a good
> life without monetary worries, can support their families, etc., but the
> lack of an actual strong interest in one's chosen career is just
> unfortunate, IMO. I can't help but imagine it contributes greatly to the
> generally low quality of software, for instance, that's so common these
> days.
I suspect that the fundamental problem is that too many people don't
manage to develop any interest or aptitude for much of *anything* by
the time they should start planning a career. So all other things being
equal, naturally they're going to choose somthing that looks like it
pays well.
Maybe for some professions that's actually OK. But I've *never* seen an
example of good software written by mediocre programmers. On the other
hand, perhaps there aren't any particularly good buildings designed by
mediocre architects, either. I don't know enough about other fields to
have an informed opinion.
Anyhow, all of the good programmers I've ever known developed an
interest in science and/or mathematics at an early age, and gravitated
toward computers from there. Most of them also seem to have musical
talent; I like to fancy myself a good programmer (and modest, too!), but
I couldn't carry a tune in a bucket.
Eric
VPN
X
> Maybe for some professions that's actually OK. But I've *never* seen an
> example of good software written by mediocre programmers. On the other
Maybe it is because the schedules are outrageous!
The sales persons has promised to deliver the application yeasterday
witheen a certain budget (like two coders and no architects or managers)
[VPN]
Larry Smith
> I suspect that the fundamental problem is that too many people don't
> manage to develop any interest or aptitude for much of *anything* by
> the time they should start planning a career.
What else can we expect? Our secondary schools have stopped teaching
any real scholastic material, it's all about "diversity" and "finding
yourself" and "political correctness". Hell, most schools don't even
dare mention evolution in biology class - some aren't even allowed to
under state law! Biology makes absolutely no sense without evolution
to tie it all together. It's the biological version of the unified
field theory - yet schools are so chicken-hearted they back off of it
even in places where teaching it is permitted.
We've eliminated education from our schools. They are now simply an
indoctrination-and-baby-sitting service. With such material to work
with, what can a college do, really? Just more of the same, and keep
the money coming in.
Yet at the same time our educational "system" is imploding our econom-
ic engine has become so hyper-competitive that we are literally driving
ourselves out of the job market. High wages and low productivity are
an infallible recipe for outsourcing jobs. When you manage to the
quarterly bottom-line and get promoted before the results of such
short-sightedness become apparent, I, at least, would expect us to get
exactly what we've got.
I wouldn't be so bitter about it except that I know that American
productivity is no less - and usually much more - than anywhere
else in the world. But if you torture data long enough it will
confess to anything, and companies want to outsource. Once they
have an idea in their CEO's heads there is no shifting it, and
mere facts just won't cut it.
--
.-. .-. .---. .---. .-..-.|Experts in Linux/Unix: www.WildOpenSource.com
| |__ / | \| |-< | |-< > / |"Making the bazaar more commonplace"
`----'`-^-'`-'`-'`-'`-' `-' |Check out my new novel: "Cloud Realm" at:
home:www.smith-house.org:8000|http://www.smith-house.org:8000/books/list.html
Wayne Brown
>
> (slightly off topic...)
>
> The PPC ROM project funds were collected in Richard Nelson's checking
> account, all quarter million dollars of it. No interest was earned and
> I believe this was done with the bank's foreknowledge. Then somehow
> later, the IRS discovered this money and [wrongly] concluded that
> something fishy was going on. Richard ended up going through a
> multi-year nightmare attempting to convince them that this money was
> not income and that no taxes should be due. He ultimately lost his
> battle and paid thousands of dollars. As usual, no good deed went
> unpunished.
Wow... I'd never heard that part of the story before. I'll treasure my
PPC ROM all the more, now that I know of this additional sacrifice made
for its existence...
--
Wayne Brown (HPCC #1104) | "When your tail's in a crack, you improvise
fwb...@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give
| your pelt to the trapper."
"e^(i*pi) = -1" -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, "Silverlock"
VPN
news:U8CdnSrFMY6...@adelphia.com...
> Eric Smith wrote:
>
>> I suspect that the fundamental problem is that too many people don't
>> manage to develop any interest or aptitude for much of *anything* by
>> the time they should start planning a career.
>
> What else can we expect? Our secondary schools have stopped teaching
> any real scholastic material, it's all about "diversity" and "finding
> yourself" and "political correctness". Hell, most schools don't even
> dare mention evolution in biology class - some aren't even allowed to
> under state law! Biology makes absolutely no sense without evolution
Evo is total bull and any scientist should immediately recognize it as such.
Naturally it should be mentioned briefly in schools
as an example what happens when you deny God
> to tie it all together. It's the biological version of the unified
> field theory - yet schools are so chicken-hearted they back off of it
> even in places where teaching it is permitted.
X
Should the follow-up go somewhere else?
Eric Smith
> Maybe for some professions that's actually OK. But I've *never* seen an
> example of good software written by mediocre programmers. On the other
VPN wrote:
> Maybe it is because the schedules are outrageous!
You're saying that mediocre programmers could write good software if
given more time to do it? I'm dubious.
Eric
VPN
and then they add those coders to the cooking...
???
Al Borowski
> Evo is total bull and any scientist should immediately recognize it as such.
Why?
Al
BobLogan
>Evo is total bull
Trying to start a flame war, perhaps? :-)
Bob
VPN
news:2b00092e411703ff...@localhost.talkaboutcomputing.com...
> VPN wrote:
>>Evo is total bull
>
> Trying to start a flame war, perhaps? :-)
>
:-)
werty
The 49G+ does not sell well , very few people know it exists .
This new box is about same . It is not at all competitive .
It lacks the modern features we expect .
The way to excite people is to make it some how "customizable"
and expandable so we can make it competitve .
werty
on 49 !
If you had done some elegant s/w on the 49 , today you may have had
some interested contributors .
Still not too late , try using Forth to win back
confidense .
DRT
they teach evolution the class it makes no sense, the books are so messed
up...
"VPN" <DROP...@dlc.fi> wrote in message
news:UF%8e.8342$j%6.4...@reader1.news.jippii.net...
WW
> I happen to be taking a bio class right now, and I can say that even when
> they teach evolution the class it makes no sense, the books are so messed
> up...
>
CODE RED! CODE RED! Warning Flame War Imminent!
Whats there not to understand about evolution? Things that work remain,
things that don't fall by the wayside.
Just slight on a tangent here but evolution applies not just in biol, but
also in markets and technology.
And finally, to bring things back on topic, I must say I am a little
concerned about the HP Calcs' path of evolution.
As always, have fun! :)
--
Wing Wong.
Jaap Versteegh
Oh man, I'm in on a flame war on this one :)
God versus Evo. Whoever wins remains, errrmm
> Bob
>
thegoldbug
Note, this thread has Evolved, therefore Evolution is a fact.
VPN
Macroevolution eg. a species changing to another, more advanced one
is to my opinion just a fairytale - DNA is programmed !!
God is The Great Programmer!
also the timeframes are fabricated stuff
eg. last years lava will show 50 million years using decay-timing
VPN
news:yNGdnS-snvC...@midco.net...
>I happen to be taking a bio class right now, and I can say that even when
>they teach evolution the class it makes no sense, the books are so messed
>up...
VPN
> DRT <rp20...@rap.midco.net> wrote:
>> I happen to be taking a bio class right now, and I can say that even when
>> they teach evolution the class it makes no sense, the books are so messed
>> up...
>>
>
>
> CODE RED! CODE RED! Warning Flame War Imminent!
>
> Whats there not to understand about evolution? Things that work remain,
> things that don't fall by the wayside.
yes, that is the simplification of the theory/speculation
> Just slight on a tangent here but evolution applies not just in biol, but
> also in markets and technology.
markets and techonology are totally different thing
also
cultural evolution eg. humans are the same, technology goes on
riding on the shoulders of the previous generations work
is a different thing
I'm *only* interested in creation of life vs. evolution of life
> And finally, to bring things back on topic, I must say I am a little
> concerned about the HP Calcs' path of evolution.
HP calculators have an intelligent designer (except for the keyboard)
> As always, have fun! :)
thanks - I will
>
> Wing Wong
Weli Wekka
.
Brandon Del Bel
few flames myself, but I shall refrain. All I will say is that nobody
can prove anything about the universe, so everything is speculation --
including this sentence.
Go in peace to love and serve the unknown.
Helen
> Evo is total bull and any scientist should immediately recognize it
as such.
> Naturally it should be mentioned briefly in schools
> as an example what happens when you deny God
Interesting. We already knew that this guy is a naive child, but
apparently he is also, shall we say, not very bright...
And there I was, thinking that this particular kind of idiocy was
mostly restricted to my own country.
-- Helen.
Scottman<49G+>
>mostly restricted to my own country.
Mutations are used to promote evo. Their claim that
complexity is brought foreth by random selectivity is absurd.
To turn hominids into humans, reptiles into birds, etc.
relies upon generally uncertain evidence.
I agree that there are minor variations in certain species, but
it's illogical to build a whole eco-system based on minor variations.
It's far more sensible to believe in an 'intellegent' design
than random/selective chance or the religion of evo.
Besides, the thought of being a mutant ape is somehow repulsive to me.
Oops, I hope I didn't step on someones tail ;-) . . . .
Scott H.
Helen
> Their claim that complexity is brought foreth
> by random selectivity is absurd.
That claim would indeed be absurd. Unfortunately, it turns out that
nobody is making such a claim. The usual problem with religious
fanatics trying to discredit evolution theory is that they have no clue
whatsoever what it is they think they are attacking.
Makes them look stupid every time, one might add.
> I agree that there are minor variations in certain species, but
> it's illogical to build a whole eco-system based on minor variations.
You would have to show how that is so. As it is, all I can see is that
you a) do not understand the theory you presume to criticize, and b),
you are unfamiliar with the meaning of the term "logical", or its
converse.
> It's far more sensible to believe in an 'intellegent' design
That is how you seem to feel, yes. Are you able to substantiate that
feeling in any way? If not, then I am afraid your personal feelings on
this matter are of no interest nor value.
> than random/selective chance or the religion of evo.
I wonder what the referent in reality to this "religion of evo" you
mention might be.
> Besides, the thought of being a mutant ape is somehow repulsive to
me.
Again, your personal feelings in this matter are of no relevance.
I won't comment any further on this nonsense. It's far off-topic in
this group anyway.
-- Helen.
Scottman<49G+>
not very bright...
idiocy...
fanatics...
stupid..."
Kinda says it all don't you think?
Crack contemptuousness is hardly worthy of this group. A fun discussion
now has a "burn the witch" sound. But I am reminded that my "feelings"
are not important and are not relevant....
dima_t...@yahoo.com
Hi Helen,
Are you french?
If you are, I'd like to cite you Nietzsche. I think he lead cynism to
its paradigm, nihilism.
(The book is in french, sorry)
>From "La volonte de puissance" F. Nietzsche (anaphore 223)
...
Dans toute l'evolution de la morale il n'y a pas une seule verite: tous
les elements d'idees avec lequels on travaille sont des fictions: tous
les faits psychologiques sur lequels on se base sont des faux ; toutes
les formes de la logique que l'on introduit dans ce royaume de mensonge
sont des sophismes. Ce qui distingue les philosophes de la morale
eux-memes, c'est la complete absence de toute proprete, de toute
discipline de l'intelligene: ils tiennent les "beaux sentiments" pour
des arguments: leur poitrine soulevee parait etre animee par le souffle
de la divinite... La philosophie morale est la periode scabreuse dans
l'histoire de l'esprit.
...
(A babelfish, a bit crappy translation:
In all the evolution of moral there is not only one truth: all the
elements of ideas with which one works are fictions: all the
psychological facts on which we base are forgeries; all forms of logic
that one introduces in this kingdom of lie are sophisms. What
distinguishes the philosophers of the moral, is the complete absence of
any cleanliness, of any discipline of the intelligence: they hold the
"beautiful feelings" for arguments: their chest 'soulevee' appears to
be animated by the breath of the divinity... Moral philosophy is the
dark period in the history of the spirit.
)
Helen, please don't become a nihilist; it's goddamn destructive.
Dimitri
Helen
> "naive...
> not very bright...
> idiocy...
> fanatics...
> stupid..."
>
> Kinda says it all don't you think?
Absolutely.
> A fun discussion
Excuse me for not sharing your sense of humour. There is nothing "fun"
about human stupidity, in my opinion. I may note in passing that even
the catholic church does not sink as low as trying to denounce a
scientific theory with the kind of pathetic nonsense christian
fundamentalists like to peddle. Which is not surprising, given the fact
that at least the leaders of the catholic church, as a rule, possess a
minimum amount of intelligence and education.
> But I am reminded that my "feelings"
> are not important and are not relevant....
That is correct. -- Helen.
Helen
> Are you french?
Francais, moi? Pas du tout! I'm American.
> Helen, please don't become a nihilist; it's goddamn destructive.
I don't follow. What does anything I said have to do with nihilism?
-- Helen.
Wayne Brown
> Scottman<49G+> wrote:
>> "naive...
>> not very bright...
>> idiocy...
>> fanatics...
>> stupid..."
>>
>> Kinda says it all don't you think?
>
> Absolutely.
>
>> A fun discussion
>
> Excuse me for not sharing your sense of humour. There is nothing "fun"
> about human stupidity, in my opinion. I may note in passing that even
> the catholic church does not sink as low as trying to denounce a
> scientific theory with the kind of pathetic nonsense christian
> fundamentalists like to peddle. Which is not surprising, given the fact
> that at least the leaders of the catholic church, as a rule, possess a
> minimum amount of intelligence and education.
It is interesting to read charges of stupidity from someone virtually
reeking of ignorance. Interesting... but also highly unpleasant, and
not something to which I care to subject myself in the future.
*PLONK*
Wayne Brown
In the past, I've sometimes thought that you were unfairly attacked for
some of your opinions here, and have even spoken up on your behalf once
or twice. Never again. The narrow-minded bigotry you displayed above
has destroyed any respect I had for you or your opinions.
Virgil
Wayne Brown <fwb...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> Helen <GHMoh...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Scottman<49G+> wrote:
> >> "naive...
> >> not very bright...
> >> idiocy...
> >> fanatics...
> >> stupid..."
> >>
> >> Kinda says it all don't you think?
> >
> > Absolutely.
> >
> >> A fun discussion
> >
> > Excuse me for not sharing your sense of humour. There is nothing "fun"
> > about human stupidity, in my opinion. I may note in passing that even
> > the catholic church does not sink as low as trying to denounce a
> > scientific theory with the kind of pathetic nonsense christian
> > fundamentalists like to peddle. Which is not surprising, given the fact
> > that at least the leaders of the catholic church, as a rule, possess a
> > minimum amount of intelligence and education.
>
> It is interesting to read charges of stupidity from someone virtually
> reeking of ignorance. Interesting... but also highly unpleasant, and
> not something to which I care to subject myself in the future.
>
> *PLONK*
So that he can avoid such unpleasantness one hopes that Wayne Brown
remembers to plonk his own postings, too.
Scottman<49G+>
When is a human is no longer stupid?
Probably when they know all the answers and stop asking 'stupid'
questions.
> denounce a scientific theory with the kind of pathetic nonsense ...
Obviously there are some facts to back this up? Specifics are lacking.
To adhere to a theory that is not yet verified, is a philosophy based
on faith, by definition. Most of us were forced to study and accept
Darwin's theory and not question it. How intelligent is that? Even
Darwin had his doubts. Read an article on Irreducible Complexity, among
others. Any dialogue over these issues in an open atmosphere where
individuals are free to speak their personal views, without vindictave
criticism would be appreciated. Though this forum is not the most
suitable, it will do. Otherwise this discussion is closed, at least for
me.
Scott H.
Tony Hutchins
-=[ Thu, 21.4.05 8:29 p.m. +1200 (NZT) ]=-
Hello VPN, <DROP...@dlc.fi>
2 days 13h12m ago, on Mon,
18.4.05 at 10:16 p.m. +0300, you wrote
in message ID <cGT8e.8247$8D5....@reader1.news.jippii.net> :
[...]
> Evo is total bull and any scientist should immediately
> recognize it as such.
No, no, no VPN<G>, it's astrology! Astrology is Taurus, not
evo!!<G>
> Naturally it should be mentioned briefly in schools
> as an example what happens when you deny God
It would almost be more fun to mention astrology, as a good
example of what happens when you deny science<G>. Although,
students would get to learn a lot about time zones and even
some astronomy. Hehe I bet this doesn't start a flame war, as
I assume few here favour astrology with any passionate belief.
:-)
--
Tony
#344 For just when ideas fail, a word comes in
to save the situation. Von Goethe
Helen
> >There is nothing "fun" about human stupidity, in my opinion.
>
> When is a human is no longer stupid?
> Probably when they know all the answers and stop asking 'stupid'
> questions.
You are confused. Stupidity and ignorance are two entirely different
matters.
> To adhere to a theory that is not yet verified, is a philosophy based
> on faith, by definition.
You clearly do not understand the nature of scientific theories.
> Most of us were forced to study and accept
> Darwin's theory and not question it. How intelligent is that?
That would have been really stupid, I agree. Of course you are free to
question any theory once you have found discreopancies between the
theory in question and reality. On the other hand, questioning a theory
the content of which you do not even understand, by pointing out
discrepancies between statements the theories does not make with the
contents of an old book that itself has no standing regarding its
scientific accuracy (nor does it make any claims to that effect, one
may note), is an obviously not-so-bright idea.
Final remark: If it helps, it may be useful to remember that there is
no fundamental conflict between a belief in god and science, including
the theory of evolution. There _is_ a conflict for the naive dimwits
who insist on interpreting the bible literally, but that is a different
matter entirely. As I mentioned before, no intelligent and educated
christian would make that mistake. It is only a handful of groups that
the Vatican itself refers to as sects that feel compelled to peddle
that kind of nonsense.
> Even Darwin had his doubts.
Of course he did. So?
> Read an article on Irreducible Complexity, among others.
I am sorry, but my time is too valuable to waste on such garbage.
> Otherwise this discussion is closed, at least for
> me.
Same here. -- Helen.
Teddy Chiang
But I believe a scientific PDA should be very very attractive to
user's. Both hi-end calculator and PDA users.
Since the Qonos seems doesn't sell with 49G or TI92 emulator software.
I concern that if Hydrix will offer detail enough manual for users. Be
a 49g+ user, I hate the scratch manual.
I believe Qonos doesn't focus on consumer products, which will change
very fast, like mobile phone. So the consumables or parts should be
got without difficulty. If I could see more detail of Qonos, known
it's durable and meet my demand. I would pay for pre-oredr without
hesitation.
I dreamed to use dictionary on my 49g+. I know Qonos must be able to
do it.
Wayne Brown
>
> So that he can avoid such unpleasantness one hopes that Wayne Brown
> remembers to plonk his own postings, too.
And so another person I formerly respected reveals his true colors.
Congratulations, Virgil, you've just joined Helen in moving yourself into
the category I normally reserve for the likes of James Harris and Daryl
Kabatoff. I'm sure the four of you will be quite comfortable together.
manjo
example:
"ooooh i was so stupid" or maybe
"my ignorance has cost me time and money"
i don't know what's up with you Helen
-what hapened to you that you became so violent, so angry ?
But i'm sure that frendship and love that i'm bearing to you will make you
feal better
-you just have to get tougether, find some currage and good will,
leave your fears behind and come thowards the light !!!
manjo
"Helen" <GHMoh...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1114084567.8...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Larry Smith
>>There is nothing "fun" about human stupidity, in my opinion.
>
> When is a human is no longer stupid?
> Probably when they know all the answers and stop asking 'stupid'
> questions.
No. Somewhat paradoxically, a human is no longer stupid
when they realize they ARE stupid - i.e. ignorant - and
therefore not possessed of all the answers. Evolutionists
don't profess to have all the answers, Bible-thumping
Christian fundamentalists do. The former are enlightened,
the latter are stupid.
If God did not intend for us to believe in evolution then
He would not have laced the earth's crust with evidence for
it, nor would He have stuffed every living thing with the
same DNA in various permutations.
--
.-. .-. .---. .---. .-..-.|Experts in Linux/Unix: www.WildOpenSource.com
| |__ / | \| |-< | |-< > / |"Making the bazaar more commonplace"
`----'`-^-'`-'`-'`-'`-' `-' |Check out my new novel: "Cloud Realm" at:
home:www.smith-house.org:8000|http://www.smith-house.org:8000/books/list.html
Larry Smith
> i don't know what's up with you Helen
> -what hapened to you that you became so violent, so angry ?
It's a common side-effect of over-exposure to ignorance
and self-righteousness.
There is simply no room to deny evolution is a fact. One
can argue all one wishes about the details of its operation,
but denying the fact of it says precisely the same thing
about someone as professing to believe in a flat Earth, or
that the Earth is the center of the solar system. It is
simply another way of proving one's stupidity in public.
Obstinately continuing such foolishness is hugely annoying
to someone who knows better, and frightening when one
realizes that such people vote.
The evidence for evolution is so strong, in fact, that
I'd be quite comfortable with classifying disbelief in
it as a delusion serious enough to warrant psychiatric
intervention.
rei...@yahoo.com
2 cents worth:
Between Bryan and Darrow, one was using a TI, the other an HP. Scopes
was using an emulator on his Palm. The monkey was using an abacus.
The next generation will use a Qonos.
:-)
Bill
Harold A. Climer
wrote:
It reminds me of a line from the original movie Flight of the Pheonix
with Jimmy Stewart and Hardy Kruger
" Mr, Towns ,you act as if stupidity was a virtue"
Harold A. Climer
Dept. Of Physics,Geology, and Astronomy
U.T. Chattanooga
318 Grote Hall
615 McCallie Ave
Chattanooga TN 37403
VPN
news:vcCdnRxyVMf...@adelphia.com...
> manjo wrote:
>
>> i don't know what's up with you Helen
>> -what hapened to you that you became so violent, so angry ?
>
> It's a common side-effect of over-exposure to ignorance
> and self-righteousness.
>
> There is simply no room to deny evolution is a fact. One
It's a speculative theory, you simply can't test the past
Example gravity can be tested again&again with same results
> can argue all one wishes about the details of its operation,
> but denying the fact of it says precisely the same thing
> about someone as professing to believe in a flat Earth, or
> that the Earth is the center of the solar system. It is
> simply another way of proving one's stupidity in public.
> Obstinately continuing such foolishness is hugely annoying
> to someone who knows better, and frightening when one
> realizes that such people vote.
to me it's frightening that evolution supporters vote
> The evidence for evolution is so strong, in fact, that
The evidence shows that evolution is totally false
> I'd be quite comfortable with classifying disbelief in
> it as a delusion serious enough to warrant psychiatric
> intervention.
I'm wondering why evolution is consired "science"
while it clearly is a belief and mostly against creation
Any kind of secular help with not cure disbelief
BUT
maybe we should go back to calculators
(which also have an intelligent designer)
I wonder if there is any solution to the Qonos project?
[VPN]
VPN
news:1136165...@news.clear.net.nz...
>
> -=[ Thu, 21.4.05 8:29 p.m. +1200 (NZT) ]=-
>
> Hello VPN, <DROP...@dlc.fi>
>
> 2 days 13h12m ago, on Mon,
> 18.4.05 at 10:16 p.m. +0300, you wrote
> in message ID <cGT8e.8247$8D5....@reader1.news.jippii.net> :
> [...]
>
>> Evo is total bull and any scientist should immediately
>> recognize it as such.
>
> No, no, no VPN<G>, it's astrology! Astrology is Taurus, not
> evo!!<G>
>
>> Naturally it should be mentioned briefly in schools
>> as an example what happens when you deny God
>
> It would almost be more fun to mention astrology, as a good
> example of what happens when you deny science<G>. Although,
> students would get to learn a lot about time zones and even
> some astronomy. Hehe I bet this doesn't start a flame war, as
> I assume few here favour astrology with any passionate belief.
> :-)
Id it so that our galaxy has already revolved about 22 days
from the old Egypt astrology days
resulting erronous constellation to be used
???
[VPN]
VPN
news:93972683.05042...@posting.google.com...
> As a HP calculator emulator only, Qonos may not be special anymore.
> But I believe a scientific PDA should be very very attractive to
> user's. Both hi-end calculator and PDA users.
>
> Since the Qonos seems doesn't sell with 49G or TI92 emulator software.
> I concern that if Hydrix will offer detail enough manual for users. Be
> a 49g+ user, I hate the scratch manual.
VPN's own ideas:
Qonos manuals will be for the PDA side and general usage only
Naturally how to switch to the emu48/89 is explained briefly
The actual calculator manuals you have to download yourself.
The user could also be upgrading from a "real" calc
and thus already own a printed manual
Scottman<49G+>
blatant unsubstantiated judgements and innuendo. This
sometimes works to confuse readers with their brashness
and hostility. Often missing the point entirely. No substance.
Just blind diatribes to attempt to stop anyone from taking any
rational approach. Who said that evolution was a fallasy?
Adaptation is evident sure. Lets question that something
as complex as a human brain can be pieced together over some
500 million years by inter-breeding, enviromental conditions,
mutation, or any combination of these. Amazing how
some people twist and distort their biased and convoluted
ideas. Often resorting to slander as a last resort. Which leads
me to state that the words stupid and ignorance are synonymous,
therefore they are not entirely different.
So stop the harassment and the implied threats!
Discuss the situation instead of smoke-screening everything.
However, I doubt that is no longer possible.
Unfortunately, reasonable discussion has been rejected.
1 Corinthians 13
"And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of
these is love." NIV
This is my prayer...
Scott H.
Craig A. Finseth
VPN <DROP...@dlc.fi> wrote:
>"Larry Smith" <la...@wildopensource.com> wrote in message
>news:vcCdnRxyVMf...@adelphia.com...
>> There is simply no room to deny evolution is a fact. One
>
>It's a speculative theory, you simply can't test the past
>Example gravity can be tested again&again with same results
It's true: the world exists as it is and there is no way to tell
whether it came into being 20 billion-odd years ago or 1 nanosecond
ago, with all apparent history intact.
Because there is no way to objectively test the question (at least
that I can think of), it is not a useful question to ask. We can all
pick whatever answers we like and there is no reason to prefer one to
another.
(It's in the same category as "is there free will or is it all
preordained?" Until someone can devise a way to telling these two
apart, the question is a good one to discuss at a pub but not really
worth anyone's time otherwise.)
HOWEVER, there are still many useful questions to ask. The ones that
are under discussion are of the form "within the context of the
_apparent_ history,... And, _within_this_context_, evolution is a
Theory (i.e., has been proven to work and no predictions from this
theory have been at odds with observations).
So, you take on faith that the universe was created a nanosecond ago,
or six thousand years, or 20 billion years. Whatever. No one cares.
The rest of us are assuming the apparent historical context and I am
not aware of any _testable_ conjectures to explain this history that
do so better than the Theory of Evolution.
(BTW, you may be thinking that "theory" means something like "unproven
guess." The correct technical term for that in English is
"conjecture." The term "theory" means that it has been proven..)
...
>> The evidence for evolution is so strong, in fact, that
>
>The evidence shows that evolution is totally false
Please supply one item of _testable_ evidence that the Theory of
Evolution is false.
Hint: anything you're likely to have encountered has probably already
been examined ad nauseum and shown to be consistent with the Theory,
although the showing may require a substantial amount of study to
understand. A lot of people have been trying to find holes for 150
years and have so far failed completly, although by doing so they have
greatly strengthened the evidence supporting it.
For example, did you realise that the eye evoloved independently at
least six times and that all paths produced very similar outcomes?
There is no need to suppose "intelligent design" when we have six
separate examples of unintelligent evolution written in the (apparent)
historical record.
>> I'd be quite comfortable with classifying disbelief in
>> it as a delusion serious enough to warrant psychiatric
>> intervention.
>
>I'm wondering why evolution is consired "science"
>while it clearly is a belief and mostly against creation
>Any kind of secular help with not cure disbelief
Evolution is considered science because it is testable. I.e., it is
possible to imagine that at some point you will use it to make a
prediction that will not be supported by objective testing.
Creating is not considered science becuase it is not testable.
For something to be considered a science, you must be able to (at
least imagine) prove it false.
Craig
manjo
-it's not that i'm religeous person or something, but it may be
that humans as entities have sort of need or urge to belive in miracles
-science is one aspect where we should belive in nothing but facts... yet,
our nature invented THEORY as a form of belif which is direcly comparable
with biblical miracles (from time to time)
manjo
"VPN" <DROP...@dlc.fi> wrote in message
news:IMT9e.9375$Zx2....@reader1.news.jippii.net...
VPN
news:116g3g0...@corp.supernews.com...
X
>>> The evidence for evolution is so strong, in fact, that
>>
>>The evidence shows that evolution is totally false
>
> Please supply one item of _testable_ evidence that the Theory of
> Evolution is false.
Bah, you would not believe anyway
let's try this approach: what is the age of a recent lava
which is knoiwn to be say two to 20 years old
if you use "trusteful" radiology methods?
Search the internet for interesting results...
> Hint: anything you're likely to have encountered has probably already
> been examined ad nauseum and shown to be consistent with the Theory,
> although the showing may require a substantial amount of study to
> understand. A lot of people have been trying to find holes for 150
> years and have so far failed completly, although by doing so they have
> greatly strengthened the evidence supporting it.
A lot of people have been trying to find the missing links for 150
years and have so far failed completely, allthough by doing so they have
greatly strenghtened the evidence supporting creation.
> For example, did you realise that the eye evoloved independently at
> least six times and that all paths produced very similar outcomes?
> There is no need to suppose "intelligent design" when we have six
> separate examples of unintelligent evolution written in the (apparent)
> historical record.
where are the partially developent pre-eyes?
are you totally brain-washed?? (rethoric)
>>> I'd be quite comfortable with classifying disbelief in
>>> it as a delusion serious enough to warrant psychiatric
>>> intervention.
>>
>>I'm wondering why evolution is consired "science"
>>while it clearly is a belief and mostly against creation
>>Any kind of secular help with not cure disbelief
>
> Evolution is considered science because it is testable. I.e., it is
> possible to imagine that at some point you will use it to make a
> prediction that will not be supported by objective testing.
but it has been tested always false!
> Creating is not considered science becuase it is not testable.
you can see the reaults around you!
> For something to be considered a science, you must be able to (at
> least imagine) prove it false.
which you can't do either for evolution or creation
[VPN]