Re: What color laser printer is easily & cheaply refilled at home from non OEM toner?

[J.G.]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 07:39:04 -0700, Oren wrote:

>>What is this "HP drop dead date" thing ?
> "...All Hewlett Packard ink cartridges have microchips installed that
> tell the printer when the cartridge expires.

In addition to what Oren and Percival said, here's what HP says (verbatim):
"What is ink expiration?
Basically ink expiration is a built-in date on which certain
HP ink cartridges will stop working."

See:
What is ink expiration and will it make my HP ink supplies stop working?
http://tinyurl.com/cz6jp9g
http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?lc=en&dlc=en&cc=us&docname=c01764161

See also:
HP’s expiring ink cartridges EXPOSED
http://advantage77.com/blog/2012/01/25/hps-expiring-ink-cartridges-exposed/

Which says (verbatim):
"Some cartridges cease to function 12 months after the “Warranty Ends” date,
or 18 months after the ink cartridge is installed, whichever comes first."

See also this USENET thread by Orak Listalavostok on 7/7/2004:
HP OfficeJet 145 Black/color ink old. 8 days to expire. Printing will stop.

And, this canonical HP printer ink expiry date thread:
Various HP printer ink expiration dates analyzed
which was posted on comp.sys.hp.hardware on Sep 17, 2004.

Note: I don't know how to quote NNTP posts so someone can help me here,
especially since the HP ink respiry research in those two threads is
nothing short of phenomenal!

[J.G.]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 10:50:34 -0700, SMS wrote:

>> I never again wish to go through the expensive ink-refill sheer hell of
>> the typical HP inkjet ...
>
> It's not hell at all.

At first I thought you were clueless ... until I read on! :)

> The key is to choose an inkjet carefully.

Indeed! All the ones I had were sheer hell to refill
(and, at the time, I knew what I was doing - yet they were STILL
sheer hell!)

> First, avoid at all costs any inkjet printer where you the print
> head and the ink cartridge are not one unit.

Mine were all separate 'tanks' and 'print heads'. :(

> It seems counter-intuitive

It does.

> but the biggest problem with ink
> jet printers is when the print head goes bad.

I had two fail on me.

> For all the HP bashing,
> the one big advantage of HP ink jet printers is that you get a new (or
> at least tested) print head with each ink cartridge.

All the HP inkjet printers I had, had separate print heads.
My fault! Now I know.

> 1. Stay away from newer ink jet printers that make it very difficult to
> use after-market or refilled cartridges.

It's getting harder and harder to find unchipped cartridges.
See details here:
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/10281-2-various-printer-expiration-dates-analyzed

> 2. Avoid ink jet printers where the print head is separate from the ink
> cartridge.

Very interesting observation!

> 3. Set up the printers in your house so that the default printer is the
> monochrome laser.

Makes sense to use the B&W most of the time.

> 4. Try to explain to your family that they should only select the color
> printer for things that absolutely need to be printed in color.

Good advice!

> 5. Show your family how to send photos to Walgreen's, CVS, or Costco for
> printing.

Makes the most sense of all!
Now to convince them of that!

[J.G.]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:55:34 +0000, J.G. wrote:

> What is ink expiration and will it make my HP ink supplies stop working?
> http://tinyurl.com/cz6jp9g
> http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?
lc=en&dlc=en&cc=us&docname=c01764161

Here's what makes it all so confusing.

This is what HP says (verbatim) at that site above:

What is the ink expiration date?
It's important to note that the ink expiration date is NOT the date
stamped or printed on the ink supply.

Rather, the printed date on all HP inkjet supplies is the “Warranty ends”
date.

To determine the ink expiration date on a particular supply, the consumer
needs to consider three factors: the ink supply, its warranty date, and
the date on which the cartridge is initially installed.

[J.G.]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:55:34 +0000, J.G. wrote:

> What is ink expiration and will it make my HP ink supplies stop working?
> http://tinyurl.com/cz6jp9g

According to that official HP web site ...

This is the list of printers whose chipped ink will expire even if it is
full and has never been opened! (which is what happened to me!):

These won't take expired ink even if its full & unopened:
HP Officejet Pro K850
HP digital Copier Printer 610
HP Business Inkjet - all
HP Officejet D series,
HP Officejet 7100 series,
HP Officejet 9100 series
HP Professional series (2000 and 2500)
HP Color Inkjet cp1160 and cp1700

This is the list of printers where heroics can overried the expiry date:
HP Officejet Pro 8000, 8500, K550, K5300, K5400, K8600, L7400, L7500,
L7600, and L7700 Series
HP Photosmart 3110, 3210, 3310, 8250, C5180, C6180, C6200, C7180, C7200,
C8100, D6160, D7160, D7200, D7360, and D7400 series, HP Photosmart Pro
B8800, B9180
HP Designjet 510, 4000, 4500, 4X20, 5100, 5500, 8000, 9000, 10000,
L25500, L26500, L28500, L65500, LX600, LX800, LX820, LX850, T610, T620,
T770, T790, T1100, T1120, T1200, T1300, T2300 eMFP, T7100, Z2100, Z3100,
Z3200, Z5200ps, Z6100, Z6200 series, HP CM8050 and CM8060

[J.G.]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:55:34 +0000, J.G. wrote:

> What is ink expiration and will it make my HP ink supplies stop working?
> http://tinyurl.com/cz6jp9g

According to that official HP web site:
http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?lc=en&dlc=en&cc=us&docname=c01764161

For these printers:
Color Inkjet cp1160 series,
Officejet d125xi
Officejet d135
Officejet d145
Officejet d155xi
Officejet 7110
Officejet 7130,
Officejet 7140xi
HP Fax 610

The drop-dead expiry date for the chipped ink is as follows:

12 months after the “Warranty Ends” date, or 18 months after the ink cartridge is installed, whichever comes first.

There is no known way around this particular drop-dead date!

Note: There are 'other' printers where you 'can' get around the drop-dead date ... hence the confusion out there.

[J.G.]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 13:25:19 -0700, dennisgauge wrote:

> The reason HP inks are so expensive is because you're
> getting a new printhead as part of the ink cartridge
> on most of their models.
> Kodak's are cheap because the printhead is part of the
> printer.

I think the record shows the reason HP inks are so expensive
is simply because HP prices its ink so expensive. Period.

Even for the ink tanks which have no print heads involved
(e.g., for the ubiquitous HP d135 #14 ink tank I had).

It's all part of their sales/marketing strategy.
They clearly make more money on ink than on printers.

For example, I forget the exact details, but I had asked
a printer friend of mine what it would cost him to provide
me as much ink as is in the #14 ink tank - and he even
gave me the ink, gratis - saying it was only worth pennies.

Of course he buys quality ink in bulk - but prior to that
I bought, from Costco, at retail prices, the $20 or $30
(I forget the exact price) refill kit also.

This kit refilled the HP d135 ink tanks many times over.

Point is, the ONLY reason HP ink costs as much as it does
is that it is an integral part of their sales strategy.

I, for one, will NEVER buy another HP ink-based printer
again, the rest of my life for this very reason.

But none of this helps us get to the best color laser
printer that can be easily refilled! :)

[J.G.]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:34:40 +0000, J.G. wrote:

> The only solution (for those printers) is to NEVER BUY THOSE PRINTERS!
> Otherwise, attempting to re-fill the chipped ink will be sheer hell.


Do we have a good list of other brand's models NOT to buy because
they too chip their ink tanks?




> So that others benefit, we should add that list of printers to avoid
> in order to eliminate hell in your otherwise wonderful instructions!
> ...

> HP Officejet Pro K850
> HP digital Copier Printer 610

> HP Business Inkjet (all HP business inkjet printers!)
> HP Officejet D series (all)
> HP Officejet d125xi,
> HP Officejet d135,
> HP Officejet d145,
> HP Officejet d155xi,
> HP Officejet 7110,
> HP Officejet 7130,
> HP Officejet 7140xi,
> HP Fax 610
> HP Officejet 7100 series (all)
> HP Officejet 9100 series (all)
> HP Professional series 2000 (all)
> HP Professional series 2500 (all)
> HP Color Inkjet cp1160
> HP Color Inkjet cp1700
> ...
> HP Officejet Pro 8000,
> HP Officejet Pro 8500,
> HP Officejet Pro K550,
> HP Officejet Pro K5300,
> HP Officejet Pro K5400,
> HP Officejet Pro K8600,
> HP Officejet Pro L7400,
> HP Officejet Pro L7500,
> HP Officejet Pro L7600,
> HP Officejet Pro L7700 Series
> HP Photosmart 3110,
> HP Photosmart 3210,
> HP Photosmart 3310,
> HP Photosmart 8250,
> HP Photosmart C5180,
> HP Photosmart C6180,
> HP Photosmart C6200,
> HP Photosmart C7180,
> HP Photosmart C7200,
> HP Photosmart C8100,
> HP Photosmart D6160,
> HP Photosmart D7160,
> HP Photosmart D7200,
> HP Photosmart D7360,
> HP Photosmart D7400 series,
> HP Photosmart Pro B8800,
> HP Photosmart Pro B9180
> HP Designjet 510,
> HP Designjet 4000,
> HP Designjet 4500,
> HP Designjet 4X20,
> HP Designjet 5100,
> HP Designjet 5500,
> HP Designjet 8000,
> HP Designjet 9000,
> HP Designjet 10000,
> HP Designjet L25500,
> HP Designjet L26500,
> HP Designjet L28500,
> HP Designjet L65500,
> HP Designjet LX600,
> HP Designjet LX800,
> HP Designjet LX820,
> HP Designjet LX850,
> HP Designjet T610,
> HP Designjet T620,
> HP Designjet T770,
> HP Designjet T790,
> HP Designjet T1100,
> HP Designjet T1120,
> HP Designjet T1200,
> HP Designjet T1300,
> HP Designjet T2300 eMFP,
> HP Designjet T7100,
> HP Designjet Z2100,
> HP Designjet Z3100,
> HP Designjet Z3200,
> HP Designjet Z5200ps,
> HP Designjet Z6100,
> HP Designjet Z6200 series,
> HP CM8050
> HP CM8060
>

[J.G.]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 15:11:47 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

> Another thing to consider with lasers is startup time.

I print maybe one page every two or three days, on average.

I generally leave the printer on all the time.

However, I 'could' just as well turn it off, for all it has
been used.

But, when I had the HP d135 AIO printer, I remember admonishments
to keep it running all the time - otherwise it wasted ink (I was
told).

And, we all know, HP ink costs more than it's weight in gold.

So, what's the general consensus for leaving printers on
which are only used sporadically a few days of the week?

Does that play a role in our printer selection decision?

[chaniarts]

energy hogs, i would guess. they have to be kept at a hot temp for the
toner to be fused to the paper, so you're paying to keep it hot, and
then the a/c costs to keep the room cool. i guess in winter, if you're
in a place that needs heating, it's a wash.

[Bob Eager]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 22:25:41 +0000, J.G. wrote:

> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 15:11:47 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:
>
>> Another thing to consider with lasers is startup time.
>
> I print maybe one page every two or three days, on average.
>
> I generally leave the printer on all the time.
>
> However, I 'could' just as well turn it off, for all it has been used.
>
> But, when I had the HP d135 AIO printer, I remember admonishments to
> keep it running all the time - otherwise it wasted ink (I was told).

True of inkjets (and to stop them clogging). Nonsense for lasers.

Most lasers (even old ones) go into a power saving mode after a while,
and the fuser heater is turned off. But they still use power. We use a 20
year old HP LaserJet 4M+, which does that after 15 minutes. But they use
a lot of energy, so I generally turn it off. To encourage me, I have a
wireless power control on it now, controlled from my desk (on the other
side of the room).

We use that printer for all B&W stuff, and an ancient-ish Xerox C20
(Lexmark Optra 45 clone) for the occasional colour.

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

[SMS]

On 8/20/2012 1:07 PM, J.G. wrote:

>> 4. Try to explain to your family that they should only select the color
>> printer for things that absolutely need to be printed in color.
>
> Good advice!

I was thinking of setting something up where it was necessary to use a
password to print to the color printer. I could have put it on a
separate network with a network key that only I knew. But as my kids got
older they were able to grasp the reasons I wanted to minimize ink usage.

>> 5. Show your family how to send photos to Walgreen's, CVS, or Costco for
>> printing.
>
> Makes the most sense of all!
> Now to convince them of that!

For photos, the quality and longevity of commercially printed photos
versus inkjet should be sufficient.

Personally, we have greatly reduced our ink usage. Before we had
networked printers there were printers in the kids rooms. This was a bad
idea. Now they have to come downstairs to get their printouts.

Just bought a laser printer for the daughter-unit to take to college
next month, and of course it has refillable toner cartridges.

[Vic Smith]

Not for me. I always leave it off. Ran out of ink.
So for small stuff like travel directions I pull a piece of paper out
of the printer (unless there's an opened trash mail envelope handy)
then write it down with a pen or pencil.
Like
41 west for 2 miles
left on 93, etc.

For bigger stuff I e-mail it to a an Office depot about a mile away
and go there. Last time they printed about 6 pages of pdf files and
e-mails for about a buck.
But I don't run a business and I have a lot of services close by.
For me it's a lot cheaper not to buy ink.

--
Vic

[Martin Brown]

On 20/08/2012 20:55, J.G. wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 07:39:04 -0700, Oren wrote:
>
>>> What is this "HP drop dead date" thing ?
>> "...All Hewlett Packard ink cartridges have microchips installed that
>> tell the printer when the cartridge expires.
>
> In addition to what Oren and Percival said, here's what HP says (verbatim):
> "What is ink expiration?
> Basically ink expiration is a built-in date on which certain
> HP ink cartridges will stop working."

Dell 1320cn isn't bad for almost photoreal laser printing (good enough
for small leaflet if you choose the paper to match the lustre of the
toner). And there are reengineered third party toner cartridges on sale
for about £40 a set (or two sets of original OEM for £110 with a free
laser printer thrown in). Offers on that model are over but I expect its
replacement will follow a similar trajectory. Shame no-one offers a deal
on C,M,Y,K,K - as that is about the right mix ratio even if you have a
dedicated monochrome laser printer for ordinary use.

I am keeping all my old empty Dell toner cartridges to refill one day if
the bulk refills ever become cheaper than whole cartridges!

If you are buying for photographic printing check out reviews carefully
- some laser printers are fit only for printing business graphs.

Regards,
Martin Brown

[J.G.]

On Tue, 21 Aug 2012 12:11:45 +0100, Brian wrote:

> The strategy is used by virtually ALL the inkjet makers, not just HP -
> they sell the printers cheaply, sometimes at a loss, and then make their
> money on the replacement cartridges.

If that's the case (which it very well may be) ... then it's confusing to
me why I can quite easily replace the 250 grams of black toner in my
HPC092a (aka 92A) toner cartridge for my HP 3200m AIO printer.

Q: Why make ink so difficult to refill ... but not toner?

[Ashton Crusher]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 22:25:41 +0000 (UTC), "J.G."
<gilmore...@gmail.com> wrote:

Most lasers will have a power save that turns off the fuser heat which
is similar to turning them off. You definitely don't want to have one
that keeps the fuser hot all the time if you only print once or twice
a day and never turn the printer off. Of course, when the fuser is
turned off that means a delay in printing when you do want to print.
If it's only once a day it's probably not much of an issue.

I don't recall HP saying their printers should be left on all the
time, only that they should be turned off properly, which means with
their power button, not just by turning off the power strip it's
plugged into. If the printer is turned off in mid print by cutting
power from the power strip it will leave the print heads un-parked
which could lead to ink drying in them and causing clogging. In my
experience, no matter what you do there will be periodic episodes when
the HP goes into "clean and polish" mode where it exercises the print
heads by squirting some ink thru them into a build in disposal
reservoir.

[Brian]

On 21/08/2012 23:47, Ashton Crusher wrote:
> In my
> experience, no matter what you do there will be periodic episodes when
> the HP goes into "clean and polish" mode where it exercises the print
> heads by squirting some ink thru them into a build in disposal
> reservoir.

My Canon Pixma does the same - sometimes I have quite a wait before it
gets started on the actual printing!

[J.G.]

On Tue, 21 Aug 2012 15:47:57 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

> You definitely don't want to have one that keeps the fuser hot all the
> time if you only print once or twice a day and never turn the printer
> off.

Hmmm... I will have to look to see if my B&W HP 3200m laser printer turns
itself off.

What feature am I looking for by name?

I googled for "hp 3200m turn off feature" but didn't find what I'm
looking for.

Does this auto-off feature have a name that I can see if the HP 3200m
laserjet has the capability?

[J.G.]

On Tue, 21 Aug 2012 15:47:57 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

> I don't recall HP saying their printers should be left on all the time,
> only that they should be turned off properly, which means with their
> power button, not just by turning off the power strip it's plugged into.

I just downloaded the manual for the HP laserjet 3200m
http://crl.ap.buffalo.edu/faculty/phones/3200manual.pdf

I did a search (control + F) of the PDF for "power" and "turn off" but
didn't see any mention of what the recommendation is.

I leave mine on all the time - but folks said that's wasteful for
printing a page or three a week.

Any suggestions?

[J.G.]

On Tue, 21 Aug 2012 15:47:57 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

> Most lasers will have a power save that turns off the fuser heat which
> is similar to turning them off.

At first, I couldn't find that 'feature' by name in the HP 3200 laserjet
manual:
http://crl.ap.buffalo.edu/faculty/phones/3200manual.pdf

But, reading page by page by page, on page 228 of that manual, I find
this chart which talks about "idle mode" which may be the thing you are
talking about?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Power requirements = 100 to 127 volts +/-10% 50 to 60 hertz
Power consumption = Continuous copy mode: 135 watts
Idle mode = 7 watts
Minimum recommended circuit capacity = 4.2 amps (110 volts)
Idle power = 7 watts
-----------------------------------------------------------

The question is whether it goes into "idle mode" on its own or if I have
to put it into that mode. Unfortunately, a control F shows that "idle
mode" is used only once in the entire 300-page document! And its at that
chart. So there's not much to go by.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Can't speak for yours specifically, but most every printer made in the
past few years is in a very low power mode when not in use. The heavy
power is the heating element that fuses the toner and that is not on
until it is going to print.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Yes, it goes into idle mode on its own.

[Bob Eager]

True of my LaserJet 4 machines, and they were made in 1993.

[George]

True, but some draw surprising amounts of power while they "sleep". A
Kill-a-watt" meter is handy to find stuff like that.

[GMAN]

My laser printer when it goes into sleep mode draws 6 watts which is less than
the damn night light i have in my upsatirs hallway.