SID chip fraud(!)
MagerValp
claims. Kevin Horton bought a few, and found that they were all bad.
He noticed that there was something fishy about the chip packaging -
it differed between the chips, even though they had identical date
markings. After rubbing them with acetone, he discovered that they
have been *repainted* to look as new:
http://kevtris.org/Projects/sid/remarked_sids.html
It seems likely that the seller has gotten hold of a large quantity of
defective SID chips, and is trying to get some quick cash. I'm amazed
that someone would go through all that trouble for what has to be very
little return, and considering the small potential market, fairly high
risk. Still, it's easy to hide behind paypal with a fake email address
these days.
If you've recently bought a NOS SID chip, test it thoroughly (maybe
all chips aren't bad), and rub it with acetone to see if it has been
repainted.
Kevin will update his webpage as he figures out more, so stay tuned.
--
___ . . . . . + . . o
_|___|_ + . + . + . Per Olofsson, arkadspelare
o-o . . . o + Mage...@cling.gu.se
- + + . http://www.cling.gu.se/~cl3polof/
MagerValp
MV> If you've recently bought a NOS SID chip, test it thoroughly
MV> (maybe all chips aren't bad), and rub it with acetone to see if it
MV> has been repainted.
Just to clarify: rub it gently with a small amount, the paint comes of
easily on the fake chips. You can of course rub the markings off a
real SID chip if you're rubbing hard enough :)
Riccardo Rubini
> A seller is selling a New Old Stock SID chips on eBay, or so he
> claims. Kevin Horton bought a few, and found that they were all bad.
> He noticed that there was something fishy about the chip packaging -
> it differed between the chips, even though they had identical date
> markings.
That doesn't mean anything. I collect MOS chips - actually I used to, I
don't anymore - and if I hadn't to go through sealed carton boxes, I could
easily take pictures for you of chips made the same day with a slightly
different packaging.
Think about it: MOS does a run of 50 SID chips, one day ( for example ).
They only have 20 packages coming from, say Thailand, and 30 from Honk Kong,
that look different. Do you think they are supposed to use a different
production run mark? No.
That alone doesn't necessarily mean they are fake.
> After rubbing them with acetone, he discovered that they
> have been *repainted* to look as new:
All I see is a few blank packages. Where are the old markings on those
pictures? I can't see them. Maybe just one, but the other ones? It's amazing
this guy really went into remarking SID chips...I mean, it probably takes a
lot of time, how much money is he making with this scam?
> http://kevtris.org/Projects/sid/remarked_sids.html
>
> It seems likely that the seller has gotten hold of a large quantity of
> defective SID chips, and is trying to get some quick cash. I'm amazed
> that someone would go through all that trouble for what has to be very
> little return, and considering the small potential market, fairly high
> risk. Still, it's easy to hide behind paypal with a fake email address
> these days.
Well, the best thing to do would be testing the chips and leaving a negative
feedback or ask for a refund if they don't work.
> If you've recently bought a NOS SID chip, test it thoroughly (maybe
> all chips aren't bad), and rub it with acetone to see if it has been
> repainted.
You have to be careful with acetone, because, as you can see, you almost end
with just blanks.
> Kevin will update his webpage as he figures out more, so stay tuned.
Why doesn't Kevin simply tell us the eBay ID of the seller so we stay away
from him? :-)
Riccardo
Cameron Kaiser
>>If you've recently bought a NOS SID chip, test it thoroughly
>>(maybe all chips aren't bad), and rub it with acetone to see if it
>>has been repainted.
>Just to clarify: rub it gently with a small amount, the paint comes of
>easily on the fake chips. You can of course rub the markings off a
>real SID chip if you're rubbing hard enough :)
What a strange thing to do. I wonder where the payoff is.
--
Cameron Kaiser * cka...@floodgap.com * posting with a Commodore 128
personal page: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/
** Computer Workshops: games, productivity software and more for C64/128! **
** http://www.armory.com/%7Espectre/cwi/ **
MagerValp
MV> If you've recently bought a NOS SID chip, test it thoroughly
MV> (maybe all chips aren't bad), and rub it with acetone to see if it
MV> has been repainted.
MV> Just to clarify: rub it gently with a small amount, the paint
MV> comes off easily on the fake chips. You can of course rub the
MV> markings off a real SID chip if you're rubbing hard enough :)
CK> What a strange thing to do. I wonder where the payoff is.
If he got them cheap, he's got a pretty good profit margin at $20 a
pop. But yeah, pretty advanced scam for little money.
MagerValp
RR> That doesn't mean anything. I collect MOS chips - actually I used
RR> to, I don't anymore - and if I hadn't to go through sealed carton
RR> boxes, I could easily take pictures for you of chips made the same
RR> day with a slightly different packaging.
RR> Think about it: MOS does a run of 50 SID chips, one day ( for
RR> example ). They only have 20 packages coming from, say Thailand,
RR> and 30 from Honk Kong, that look different. Do you think they are
RR> supposed to use a different production run mark? No.
RR> That alone doesn't necessarily mean they are fake.
No, but together with the evidence it's a pretty strong indicator. He
can also match up the repainted chips with known good chips from other
sources. They're too fresh looking (perfect pins with mirror finish
from fresh tin) to be 20 years old. They also have markings that are
obviously wrong, like 6581R4AR chips dated week 22 1982.
RR> All I see is a few blank packages. Where are the old markings on
RR> those pictures? I can't see them.
As the text says, it's due to his crappy camera.
RR> Maybe just one, but the other ones? It's amazing this guy really
RR> went into remarking SID chips...I mean, it probably takes a lot of
RR> time, how much money is he making with this scam?
He's selling them at $20 a pop, but yeah, it's a lot of work for
little money.
RR> Well, the best thing to do would be testing the chips and leaving
RR> a negative feedback or ask for a refund if they don't work.
I'm pretty sure he'll do that, this is just to warn people.
RR> Why doesn't Kevin simply tell us the eBay ID of the seller so we
RR> stay away from him? :-)
Just search for NOS SID on ebay and you'll find him. It's also
possible that the seller is not the perpetrator - someone might have
sold him a bad batch of SID chips, and he doesn't know it. Some of the
chips just have semi-broken filters, meaning that music that doesn't
use a lot of filter effects sound OK.
Wolfgang Moser
thanks for the info. So it is mainly the heading
"*NOS*" (new old stock) to watch out in auctions
as well as comparing the mentioned date code as
well as the fact the all date codes from such a
multipart auction were the same.
Oh wow!!! There really is a 6581R4AR chip with a
date code from 198_2_! Wow, these 50 pieces must
be _that_ one and only lot of time warped SID
chips that Commodore has got as blue print to
create their first R2 revisions of the 6581.
Maybe that's the reason why there never was a
true R1 revision (as marked on the chip die), in
fact the R1 revision was _that_ R4AR that got
back in time from the mid 1980'ties?
Funny...
Womo
Riccardo Rubini
> They're too fresh looking (perfect pins with mirror finish
> from fresh tin) to be 20 years old.
I own like 70 SIDS, 30% 6582, 70% 8580 circa, exactly like that, with
absolutely perfect pins. They come from a warehouse in Braunschweig. A
friend o'mine who lived near there tracked them for me and gifted me a box
full of them - I did not pay, it was a gift. That's why it never dawned on
me to sell them. Perfect pins, fresh looking as those. They are from 1992,
though. Not 20 years, but 16...
I suppose they all work - I picked random ones to play with my C65's and
C64's - and I did play demos, etc. without any problem whatsoever.
The point is: if you guys are assuming this dude is selling used 6581 chips,
with a fake stamp, and these chips are partly working 6581 and are not some
random 24 pins DIP chips, how come the chips look like new, if they are
used? I mean, if they are used they are not supposed to look like that. You
can't change the pins and making them shine like that, on over 50 pieces,
sounds too much of work for the money they're selling them for.
> They also have markings that are
> obviously wrong, like 6581R4AR chips dated week 22 1982.
Well, this sounds just wrong. But I didn't find any like the one you say on
eBay.
>> All I see is a few blank packages. Where are the old markings on
>> those pictures? I can't see them.
>
> As the text says, it's due to his crappy camera.
>
>> Maybe just one, but the other ones? It's amazing this guy really
>> went into remarking SID chips...I mean, it probably takes a lot of
>> time, how much money is he making with this scam?
>
> He's selling them at $20 a pop, but yeah, it's a lot of work for
> little money.
I'd rather sell JiffyDOS copies than fake SIDs. I mean, it doesn't take much
to realize they are toast and have the buyer after you asking for a refund.
With JiffyDOS, it's easier to do a perfect working EPROM just like the
original :-)
Scammers sometimes think in a very intricate way...
> Just search for NOS SID on ebay and you'll find him. It's also
> possible that the seller is not the perpetrator - someone might have
> sold him a bad batch of SID chips, and he doesn't know it. Some of the
> chips just have semi-broken filters, meaning that music that doesn't
> use a lot of filter effects sound OK.
I found someone with ID adeee2007 selling those. The 6582 batch looks ok.
The 6581R4 he sells are dated 3686, which is plausible. There's a SID marked
"6581 CBM / 3085" that looks suspicious. For the rest, they look just as
real as the real ones.
Riccardo
MagerValp
MV> They also have markings that are obviously wrong, like 6581R4AR
MV> chips dated week 22 1982.
RR> Well, this sounds just wrong. But I didn't find any like the one
RR> you say on eBay.
Interesting - that auction is now gone. It was there when I wrote the
previous reply to you, as I had to look up "2282".
RR> I mean, it doesn't take much to realize they are toast and have
RR> the buyer after you asking for a refund.
Well:
* some of them seem to work at least partially
* I would personally expect a certain percentage of dead chips, even
if "NOS"
* eBay's feedback system is flawed, and retaliatory negs hide a lot
of problems
But yeah, this whole story is quite bizarre. It'd be interesting to
hear the speller speak out.
RR> I found someone with ID adeee2007 selling those. The 6582 batch
RR> looks ok. The 6581R4 he sells are dated 3686, which is plausible.
RR> There's a SID marked "6581 CBM / 3085" that looks suspicious. For
RR> the rest, they look just as real as the real ones.
Yeah, Kevin ordered 6 or 7 more from the dude before realizing that
they were fakes. It'll be interesting to see what arrives.
MagerValp
WM> thanks for the info. So it is mainly the heading "*NOS*" (new old
WM> stock) to watch out in auctions as well as comparing the mentioned
WM> date code as well as the fact the all date codes from such a
WM> multipart auction were the same.
Yes, at the moment it's the chips being sold on eBay as NOS that are
suspicious, but if the guy really is trying to scam people I wouldn't
be surprised if they turned up under a new seller ID, and with a new
description.
Wolfgang Moser
Wolfgang Moser schrieb:
> Oh wow!!! There really is a 6581R4AR chip with a
> date code from 198_2_! Wow, these 50 pieces must
couldn't find it on the first attempt, but Tim Boescke's
chip microphotographies may help to correlate revisions
versus date stamps:
http://www.digital-circuits.org/sid/CSG%20Micrographs/
Womo
Wolfgang Moser
MagerValp schrieb:
>>>>>> "WM" == Wolfgang Moser <wn0...@d81.de.invalid> writes:
>
> WM> thanks for the info. So it is mainly the heading "*NOS*" (new old
> WM> stock) to watch out in auctions as well as comparing the mentioned
> WM> date code as well as the fact the all date codes from such a
> WM> multipart auction were the same.
>
> Yes, at the moment it's the chips being sold on eBay as NOS that are
> suspicious, but if the guy really is trying to scam people I wouldn't
> be surprised if they turned up under a new seller ID, and with a new
> description.
with its eBay ID, he more probably tries to carry shit
onto another well known UK Retro seller. What about this:
That fake SID seller tries to generate a bad reputation
on the other well known Retro clone hardware seller?
However, this doesn't change anything on the fact that
ordinary people get tricked.
By the way, I would never pay more than EUR 5 for a SID
chip, if the seller is not a well known and experienced
long time CBM hardware adpet like e.g. Nicolas Welte.
Womo
Riccardo Rubini
>>>>>> "RR" == Riccardo Rubini <rub...@despammed.com> writes:
>
>> They also have markings that are obviously wrong, like 6581R4AR
>
> previous reply to you, as I had to look up "2282".
It seems like the seller reads comp.sys.cbm, then. This is a picture I've
just taken of three random 6581 SID chips out of my collection.
Unfortunately, I have most of my chips sealed in their plastic tubes within
big carton boxes, but I had these handy:
http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/6425/img6285fz0.jpg
This is a picture of the SID chip sold by the "NOS" seller:
http://i7.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/c1/59/1cae_3.JPG
As you can see, the fonts in the two look nothing alike, but they are
roughly of the same period. I've never seen fonts similiar to the seller's
picture on MOS chips from the 80's. Also, the M and the S of "MOS" look
pretty much different.
I can't explain how those pins are so shiny, except these are 8580 chips
from 1992 - I have many of those and they have shiny brand new pins still
today - that have been misleadingly marked as "6581".
If I am right, this would also explain the fucked up sound. Indeed, an 8580
will work in place of a 6581, but the sound will be fucked up due to the
known voltage incompatibilities between the two...
> * some of them seem to work at least partially
Just like an 8580 would... Thought about that?
> * I would personally expect a certain percentage of dead chips, even
> if "NOS"
There's a possibility, depending how the chips were handled. I personally
went through many chips - as I said, I used to collect them - and this
hardly ever happened on me, though. Only static charge could damage unused
NOS chips, but if you keep them into their anti-static tubes... How could
that happen?
> * eBay's feedback system is flawed, and retaliatory negs hide a lot
> of problems
Wait a few months and eBay's feedback system will be completely fucked up.
eBay is going to abolish feedback left for buyers, expect the retaliation to
skyrocket.
http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2008/02/ebays_feedback.html
> But yeah, this whole story is quite bizarre. It'd be interesting to
> hear the speller speak out.
>
>> I found someone with ID adeee2007 selling those. The 6582 batch
>> looks ok. The 6581R4 he sells are dated 3686, which is plausible.
>> There's a SID marked "6581 CBM / 3085" that looks suspicious. For
>> the rest, they look just as real as the real ones.
>
> Yeah, Kevin ordered 6 or 7 more from the dude before realizing that
> they were fakes. It'll be interesting to see what arrives.
Sorry, all six/seven of them were toast? Was there at least one fully
working chip?
The seller has made a few hundred pounds with these sales and got positive
feedbacks only, so far. If this is a scam, we were really naive to think
he's not making any profit out of it. Just look at his feedback and how many
"NOS 6581" sales he did...
Riccardo
MagerValp
RR> I can't explain how those pins are so shiny, except these are 8580
RR> chips from 1992 - I have many of those and they have shiny brand
RR> new pins still today - that have been misleadingly marked as
RR> "6581".
RR> If I am right, this would also explain the fucked up sound.
RR> Indeed, an 8580 will work in place of a 6581, but the sound will
RR> be fucked up due to the known voltage incompatibilities between
RR> the two...
Seems like that's not the case. Quoted from IRC:
"kevin used acetone to remove the fake labels, and they're actually
real sids underneath. you can see the old markings which do not match
the fake ones. the fake 6581s are all really 6581s of various sorts
from different dates and factories. we havent found any 8580s
masquerading as 6581s or vice versa yet"
RR> There's a possibility, depending how the chips were handled. I
RR> personally went through many chips - as I said, I used to collect
RR> them - and this hardly ever happened on me, though. Only static
RR> charge could damage unused NOS chips, but if you keep them into
RR> their anti-static tubes... How could that happen?
*shrug* shit happens to old electronics, that's just a fact :) But
yes, properly handled they should be fine.
MV> Yeah, Kevin ordered 6 or 7 more from the dude before realizing
MV> that they were fakes. It'll be interesting to see what arrives.
RR> Sorry, all six/seven of them were toast? Was there at least one
RR> fully working chip?
He's ordered them, but they haven't arrived yet.
RR> The seller has made a few hundred pounds with these sales and got
RR> positive feedbacks only, so far. If this is a scam, we were really
RR> naive to think he's not making any profit out of it. Just look at
RR> his feedback and how many "NOS 6581" sales he did...
Yeah, from a quick peek at his feedback it looks like he's sold about
200 of them. Ł2000 isn't really a crazy amount of money though...
Riccardo Rubini
>>>>>> "RR" == Riccardo Rubini <rub...@despammed.com> writes:
> "kevin used acetone to remove the fake labels, and they're actually
> real sids underneath. you can see the old markings which do not match
> the fake ones. the fake 6581s are all really 6581s of various sorts
> from different dates and factories. we havent found any 8580s
> masquerading as 6581s or vice versa yet"
Ok.
>> Yeah, Kevin ordered 6 or 7 more from the dude before realizing
>> that they were fakes. It'll be interesting to see what arrives.
>
>> Sorry, all six/seven of them were toast? Was there at least one
>> fully working chip?
>
> He's ordered them, but they haven't arrived yet.
I wonder if the new ones will be dead as well. Well, we are all wondering at
this point, aren't we?
>> The seller has made a few hundred pounds with these sales and got
>> positive feedbacks only, so far. If this is a scam, we were really
>> naive to think he's not making any profit out of it. Just look at
>> his feedback and how many "NOS 6581" sales he did...
>
> Yeah, from a quick peek at his feedback it looks like he's sold about
> 200 of them. £2000 isn't really a crazy amount of money though...
That is almost 2700 Euros. I personally wouldn't spit on them.
Riccardo
bluebirdpod
strange Adeee2007 ended the listing, but has other sid listings still
on ebay.
and this listing is still available
Commodore 64 6581 R4 SID Chip *NOS* Item number: 320215638896
Looks like it could be faked, but maybe just the 6581's were.
-BBP
MagerValp
b> http://cgi.ebay.com/Commodore-64-6581-R4AR-SID-Chip-NOS_W0QQitemZ320215639181
Ah, thanks for digging it up.
Riccardo Rubini
> strange Adeee2007 ended the listing, but has other sid listings still
> on ebay.
The other ones are more plausible, this is just odd. The fourth - and last -
revision of the SID wasn't obviously available by May 1982... The C64 was
released in August of that year...
> Commodore 64 6581 R4 SID Chip *NOS* Item number: 320215638896
>
> Looks like it could be faked, but maybe just the 6581's were.
Item 320215638896 is an 6581R4 made in 1986. That's more realistic. I don't
remember when Commodore quit doing 6581 SIDs, I guess it was not earlier
than 1990. Anyway, that chip's fonts and logo look completely fake.
Riccardo
John Selck
wrote:
> I can't explain how those pins are so shiny, except these are 8580 chips
> from 1992 - I have many of those and they have shiny brand new pins still
> today - that have been misleadingly marked as "6581".
Some acid can do that. We did stuff like that in school: "make old metal
stuff look shiny".
bud
Group: comp.sys.cbm Date: Fri, Feb 8, 2008, 1:46am (CST+7) From:
Mage...@cling.gu.se (MagerValp)
script:
>http://cgi.ebay.com/Commodore-64-6581-R4AR-SID-Chip-NOS_W0QQitemZ320215639181
>
>Ah, thanks for digging it up.
Beginning to look to me as if the seller got scammed too.
salaam,
dowcom
To e-mail me, add the character zero to "dowcom". i.e.:
dowcom(zero)(at)webtv(dot)net.
--
http://community.webtv.net/dowcom/DOWCOMSAMSTRADGUIDE
MSWindows is television,… Linux is radar.
MagerValp
b> Beginning to look to me as if the seller got scammed too.
Based on what? He hasn't said a peep aywhere, and is still listing
chips that have been shown to be fakes.
Riccardo Rubini
>>>>>> "b" == bud <dow...@webtv.net> writes:
>
> b> Beginning to look to me as if the seller got scammed too.
>
> Based on what? He hasn't said a peep aywhere, and is still listing
> chips that have been shown to be fakes.
This is a very bad deal for our small community. It's incredible someone
would specifically target the Commodore community for such a scam. Also,
people like me, who have sold occasionally chips, sometimes pristine new old
stock ones, will be looked upon with suspect, because this niche has been
spoiled by this moron.
I am still speechless. Sure, 2000 pounds is definitely some money, and
obviously he is in it for the money, but I would prefer him to scam rich
banksters than poor hobbists trying to keep their musical passion and
computers alive.
Riccardo
Miika Seppänen
> I am still speechless. Sure, 2000 pounds is definitely some money, and
> obviously he is in it for the money, but I would prefer him to scam rich
> banksters than poor hobbists trying to keep their musical passion and
> computers alive.
The money is the same, no matter of its source. :/ Obviously someone has
stumbled upon a source of defective SID's (maybe a former repairer or
something? Well, not a pro with C=, as he/she/it made that R4AR with
2282 stamp :) ) and has found an easy way to duplicate the markings.
Actually, with proper equipment (simple ones, just some tape, spray can,
font stamp (sp?) and some acid - phosphoric or citrus acid maybe?) it
will take just few minutes (excluding drying times) to "refresh" a chip.
-Miika
MagerValp
http://kevtris.org/Projects/sid/remarked_sids.html
ramswell
Yeah I know. I've had 3 people now that were interested in buying SID
chips from me and ALL WERE too afraid to buy! :(:(:(:( Unfortunately,
mine have been all tested and they are good, so their loss.
Charles
ramswell
> Group: comp.sys.cbm Date: Fri, Feb 8, 2008, 1:46am (CST+7) From:
>
> script:
>
> >http://cgi.ebay.com/Commodore-64-6581-R4AR-SID-Chip-NOS_W0QQitemZ3202...
>
> >Ah, thanks for digging it up.
>
> Beginning to look to me as if the seller got scammed too.
>
> salaam,
> dowcom
>
> To e-mail me, add the character zero to "dowcom". i.e.:
> dowcom(zero)(at)webtv(dot)net.
>
> --http://community.webtv.net/dowcom/DOWCOMSAMSTRADGUIDE
>
Yep anyone can see by looking closely at the top of the chip that it
has been "wiped" and "smeared" with something. :(
Charles
Primax
Well cant eBay be informed of this?
Surely they wil take action and kick him out?
Mike.
Klompmeester
"ramswell" <shifty...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:289d1bae-6d8a-4466...@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
The name shifty_butch probably sent alarm bells ringing.
Tom Lake
news:289d1bae-6d8a-4466...@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
What's your feedback like? Do you offer a non-DOA guarantee?
In a skittish market, you sometimes have to go the extra mile to make a
sale.
Tom Lake
colmthe...@hotmail.com
hi, im looking for sid 6581's or 8580's. how much would they cost?
thanks,
colm
colmthe...@hotmail.com
lol i havent a clue how this works(quotes etc) heres my email address:
colmthe...@hotmail.com