Portable SID player: Interest?
Oldbitcollector
emulation project.
The final product is extremely good and sounds very close to the real
thing.
I'm considering assembly of a board which runs on 3v, and plays SID
files from an SD card.
I've got a very nice prototype running on my workbench, so SID music
on the go is a reality.
Any interest in a product like this? I'm considering a batch of PCBs
OBC
Anssi Saari
> Any interest in a product like this? I'm considering a batch of PCBs
I'd be interested in a software solution that could run in a mobile
device, MP3 player or phone... Nokia phone or MP3 player running
Rockbox, to be exact. But a separate device? Kinda depends on the
features and price.
Joe Forster/STA
But Rockbox already does play SIDPlay musics.
Rudolf Harras
This is exactly the same I was thinking. Also even with Nokia Symbian
S60v3. Don't know if there exists any player yet but since I use my
phone for listening music it would make more sense there.
Although I like the idea, I think I'd only buy such a hardware device if
I find it at the electronic market at the teller and if it costs below
10 Euro. I'm sorry to say that.
Anssi Saari
>> Nokia phone or MP3 player running Rockbox, to be exact.
>
> But Rockbox already does play SIDPlay musics.
Oh yeah? Well. Sure. Kinda like a ZX Spectrum plays SID music, not at
all or at least not very well.
Now granted, it's been about a year ago since I tried it with Rockbox
3.0 and results were extremely bad. No sound at all or reproduction so
bad the song was barely recognizable. I went through the Rockbox
changes since then but there was nothing about SID support. In fact,
searching for SID on the Rockbox site turns up only two bug reports
from 2007. SID support is also mentioned in the MajorChanges wiki
page, but if someone put some major work into this recently, it's
pretty quiet.
As far as I know, the problem with my request is that there's no
accurate fixed point SID model and portable devices don't usually have
floating point processors, so porting sidplay2 or resid is hard.
Joe Forster/STA
>
> Oh yeah? Well. Sure. Kinda like a ZX Spectrum plays SID music, not at
> all or at least not very well.
With HVSC 5.0 and Rockbox 3.3 on my old iRiver iHP-140, I've listened
to:
- Atomino, because of the distorted electric guitar effect;
- Impossible Mission (PSID), because of the digi speech;
- Impossible Mission 2, because of the music that plays correctly with
certain settings only;
- Last Ninja 2, because it's my absolute all-time favorite;
- Rockmonitor 3, because of the digi drums and speech;
- Turrican 2 subtune 2, because of the solo that is heard only with
certain settings (wander around subtunes by holding the left or right
button for a longer time, like seeking in a seekable stream).
I found no significant problems. Yes, it may not be a HardSID and I
found no strings in the codec at all, so it may not be based on reSID,
but I love SID music, whether played at good or bad quality. ;-)
ramswell
Any chances of the SD CARD for this "SID Project" being "backwardly
compatible" with protovisions MP3@64 module that connects to the MMC64
Cartridge? I've been thinking for quite some time of purchasing one of
those for my RR-NET/MMC64 CART Combination, but am still collecting
data and cash for it at the moment.
Charles
Oldbitcollector
It'll be a small battery operated PCB with headphone jack, volume
control, control buttons, and microSD.
It'll be sold initially as a simple to assemble kit, and we'll work
out some ready-built units for those who
don't solder. Anyone able to do through-hole soldering should be able
to assemble this kit within
an hour.
It'll be designed to play captured SID files, and I'll probably add a
couple other toys as well.
I'll post more as we move forward.
OBC
christianlott1
> We'll be ready to release the "SIDSTICK" in about three weeks.
emulated how? what's the price?
David Murray
could wake me up in the morning to the sound of a random SID song.. I
think it'd be cool to wake up to the end-game music of Commando, then
hit the snooze and 10 minutes later wake up to international Karate..
You get the idea.. that would be great. I even have thought about
building it myself as I have the skills, sadly just not the time.
Oldbitcollector
> > We'll be ready to release the "SIDSTICK" in about three weeks.
>
> emulated how? what's the price?
SID emulation is produced on a Parallax Propeller.
A sample capture of the emulation can be downloaded here:
(Note this is a sample early into the software side of the project,
but still very good.)
http://p8x32a.googlepages.com/commando.mp3
Price will be announced as we get nearer to the release date.
OBC
Oldbitcollector
> > A sample capture of the emulation can be downloaded here:
> > (Note this is a sample early into the software side of the project,
> > but still very good.)
> >http://p8x32a.googlepages.com/commando.mp3
>
> <http://fonix.dyndns.org:40000/soasc/index.php?sb=SOASC&ss=Commando&di...>
The capture I posted was an early capture which was extremely limited
by my method
of grabbing it. Even the author of the emulator has complained. :)
We'll post another
(from him) soon and see if we can make both of you happy.
OBC
Anssi Saari
> With HVSC 5.0 and Rockbox 3.3 on my old iRiver iHP-140, I've listened
> to:
Well, OK, clearly it warrants another look. I tried a few songs, I had
Rob Hubbard's directory from HVSC on the device (Cowon iaudio M5).
Thing on a Spring and Thrust sounded fine and a couple more, but then
the SID player just quit. It pretends to play, but no sound comes
out... MP3s would still play at that point.
So I guess my initial assesment was a little hasty and Rockbox's SID
emulation might be just fine. I'll have to update to current Rockbox
and do some more testing...
> Yes, it may not be a HardSID...
Now *that* would be the coolest, a portable HardSID! Maybe the
originator of this thread might consider that as an option?
Clocky
"Oldbitcollector" <jeffl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:60e683de-da5d-4900...@p8g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
Maybe I am missing the point, but wouldn't it be much easier to grab an MP3
recorded from a real C64 from SOASC and put it on a portable MP3 player?
A. Hornbridge
> Maybe I am missing the point, but wouldn't it be much easier to grab an MP3
> recorded from a real C64 from SOASC and put it on a portable MP3 player?
Would it not be easier to buy the stick device and copy a SID file to it?
What size is the whole HVSC in .mp3 compared to .SID?
OTOH how about a drop in replacement device like swinSID, but better?
There might be some demand from midibox users, perhaps?
Clocky
"A. Hornbridge" <ahorb...@yahoo.co.in> wrote in message
news:hea4qk$sbi$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> Clocky <not...@happen.com> schrieb:
>> Maybe I am missing the point, but wouldn't it be much easier to grab an
>> MP3
>> recorded from a real C64 from SOASC and put it on a portable MP3 player?
>
> Would it not be easier to buy the stick device and copy a SID file to it?
Not really, because a MP3 player can play your other favourite music as
well.
> What size is the whole HVSC in .mp3 compared to .SID?
I don't know, but most people already have an MP3 capable device that can
store GB's of MP3's, or can purchase them for very little money these days.
> OTOH how about a drop in replacement device like swinSID, but better?
> There might be some demand from midibox users, perhaps?
>
I would buy a drop-in SID replacement for my own C64, so I don't risk the
real SID.
iAN CooG
> What size is the whole HVSC in .mp3 compared to .SID?
Current HVSC#52beta (due in Xmas) is 212294528 bytes, 37657files
Any mp3 song encoded at 128kbps is about 1mb/minute, sids can vary from 30
seconds to several minutes (even 10/12), let's say an average of 4 mins, but
then there are thousands of sids with several subtunes each. Do your maths
but I bet more than 200 Gigabytes.
--
-=[]=--- iAN CooG/HVSC & C64Intros ---=[]=-
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Clocky
"iAN CooG" <GETian...@OFemailME.it.invalid> wrote in message
news:heaep4$rjo$1...@nnrp-beta.newsland.it...
> A. Hornbridge <ahorb...@yahoo.co.in> wrote:
>
>> What size is the whole HVSC in .mp3 compared to .SID?
>
> Current HVSC#52beta (due in Xmas) is 212294528 bytes, 37657files
>
> Any mp3 song encoded at 128kbps is about 1mb/minute, sids can vary from 30
> seconds to several minutes (even 10/12), let's say an average of 4 mins,
> but
> then there are thousands of sids with several subtunes each. Do your maths
> but I bet more than 200 Gigabytes.
>
So if you spent 8 hours a day every day listening to SID's it would take the
best part of year to listen to them all... that would take one dedicated SID
listener ;-)
Dombo
Actually more than a year...
Becky
> MUSICIANS\D\Dunn_David\Flight_Path_737.sid (6581)
> MUSICIANS\R\Radiantx\Into_the_Chambers_of_Dracu.sid (8580)
>
> As far as I know both require particularly accurate SID emulation for
> correct sound.
Thanks.. I'll see if I can get the author of the software emulator to
capture these
as my method really doesn't do it justice.
OBC
Becky
> Maybe I am missing the point, but wouldn't it be much easier to grab an MP3
> recorded from a real C64 from SOASC and put it on a portable MP3 player?
Yes, but for me the difference is between an audio recording of the
SID, and
re-producing the sound of the SID from the 25 registers of the data
stream.
OBC
winston19842005
"Clocky" <not...@happen.com> wrote:
My ears would bleed...
christianlott1
6581R4 & 8580R5)
All Commodore 64 MP3 files can be downloaded
Lars Haugseth
>
> "Joe Forster/STA" <s...@c64.org> writes:
>
>> Yes, it may not be a HardSID...
>
> Now *that* would be the coolest, a portable HardSID! Maybe the
> originator of this thread might consider that as an option?
Portable 12V DC (in the MP3-player meaning of "portable"), now
there's a challenge... ;-)
--
Lars Haugseth
Oldbitcollector
> The capture I posted was an early capture which was extremely limited
> by my method
> of grabbing it. Even the author of the emulator has complained. :)
> We'll post another
> (from him) soon and see if we can make both of you happy.
>
Here's one recorded from the author of the emulation software.
One channel is a real SID, the other is the emulation.
http://forums.parallax.com/forums/attach.aspx?a=36539
Which is which? :)
OBC
Joe Forster/STA
> One channel is a real SID, the other is the emulation.
Very nice! All I can hear is that is that one of the channels has more
bass... Is the emulator software a completely new one or is it based
on some already existing one; can we get some specifications about it?
Oldbitcollector
The emulator runs on 1 cog (1/8th) of a Parallax Propeller chip.
This is the chip which is incorporated into the SIDstick design.
Perhaps I can talk the author into dropping in and giving some
additional insight into the design.
OBC
Groepaz
> Clocky <not...@happen.com> schrieb:
>> Maybe I am missing the point, but wouldn't it be much easier to grab an
>> MP3 recorded from a real C64 from SOASC and put it on a portable MP3
>> player?
>
> Would it not be easier to buy the stick device and copy a SID file to it?
it would have been, if that propeller "emulation" wouldnt be fake as hell,
and thus requires preprocessing the .sid file :)
--
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<Stephen Manes>
Groepaz
> Oldbitcollector <jeffl...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> SID emulation is produced on a Parallax Propeller.
>
> Does it emulate a 6581, 8580 or both?
>
>> A sample capture of the emulation can be downloaded here:
>
> Could you capture two particular SIDs from the HVSC?
>
> MUSICIANS\D\Dunn_David\Flight_Path_737.sid (6581)
> MUSICIANS\R\Radiantx\Into_the_Chambers_of_Dracu.sid (8580)
>
> As far as I know both require particularly accurate SID emulation for
> correct sound.
ouch, you really dig out the cruel stuff eh :) chambers of dracula is
awesome =)
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<A.W.Adams>
Oldbitcollector
> > Would it not be easier to buy the stick device and copy a SID file to it?
>
> it would have been, if that propeller "emulation" wouldnt be fake as hell,
> and thus requires preprocessing the .sid file :)
Ah, that's the comp.sys.cbm I know and love... :) I was starting to
think you guys were sick or something.
Of course it's fake, duh.. It's not a real SID chip. :) It's
emulation.
It's pretty good emulation, but nothing ever beats the real thing. :)
We're doing a test run of the PCB's.
OBC
Oldbitcollector
>
> Very nice! All I can hear is that is that one of the channels has more
> bass... Is the emulator software a completely new one or is it based
> on some already existing one; can we get some specifications about it?
Joe,
I'm not sure if this will help you or not, but here's the official
thread with
the software we're using which has a list of features/specs.
http://forums.parallax.com/forums/default.aspx?f=25&m=409209
OBC
Groepaz
>> it would have been, if that propeller "emulation" wouldnt be fake as
>> hell, and thus requires preprocessing the .sid file :)
>
> Ah, that's the comp.sys.cbm I know and love... :) I was starting to
> think you guys were sick or something.
>
> Of course it's fake, duh.. It's not a real SID chip. :) It's
> emulation.
> It's pretty good emulation, but nothing ever beats the real thing. :)
sorry but, i have my doubts about the "very good" part
http://forums.parallax.com/forums/default.aspx?f=25&m=409209
"SIDcog lacks:
- Support for combined waveforms. It's NOOOT just a simple anding(not by a
long shot) of the waveforms as some ignorant people might believe ;)
- Possibillity to change resonance value. It's ALWAYS at max because that's
the most common setting."
in other words, all 8580 tunes, and all tunes using filters, will sound
wrong. "pretty good". ofcourse.
someone else previously asked to record these:
MUSICIANS\D\Dunn_David\Flight_Path_737.sid ￜ ￜ ￜ ￜ ￜ(6581)
MUSICIANS\R\Radiantx\Into_the_Chambers_of_Dracu.sid (8580)
if that sid emulation really is "pretty good" - then do it, these two will
prove it :) and if not, these two will crush it =P (using commando as an
example is cheating, that tune isnt very demanding at all when it comes to
emulation. still clearly different from how it should sound, which doesnt
support the "pretty good" theory at all either =P)
--
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Wenn eine vom Kopienrï¿œuber geraubte Kopie eine Raubkopie ist, dann ist ein
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Oldbitcollector
> someone else previously asked to record these:
>
> MUSICIANS\R\Radiantx\Into_the_Chambers_of_Dracu.sid (8580)
>
> if that sid emulation really is "pretty good" - then do it, these two will
> prove it :) and if not, these two will crush it =P (using commando as an
> example is cheating, that tune isnt very demanding at all when it comes to
> emulation. still clearly different from how it should sound, which doesnt
> support the "pretty good" theory at all either =P)
My capture setup pretty much sucks, but there is a prototype of the
PCB
on it's way to me. As soon as it arrives I'll take a shot at those
files.
I can promise that it's "emulation" as such it will never be a SID,
but
the author of the code is pretty picky so it'll either be acceptable
and/or
improve in updates.
OBC
Christian Brandt
> As far as I know, the problem with my request is that there's no
> accurate fixed point SID model and portable devices don't usually have
> floating point processors, so porting sidplay2 or resid is hard.
The first SID-Emulators ran with 68000@7Mhz and not even using 10% CPU
power, crude but usable.
Even that old veteran was able to do 100kFLOPS with 40bit with
software-floating-point which should be a lot more than reqired. It
doesn't matter much if you programm in assembler, C, perl or Java
because fast software-floating-point emulation is mostly language
independant.
Todays mobile phones usually run at 40 to 80Mhz with ten times the
computing power and even running Java should deliver 1MFLOPS without a
real FPU.
Christian Brandt
David Murray
> > it would have been, if that propeller "emulation" wouldnt be fake as hell,
> > and thus requires preprocessing the .sid file :)
This is ridiculous. If you did a blind-test where the subject didn't
know which was the real SID and which was the emulation, I bet there
are fewer than 10 people on the entire planet that would be able to
tell them apart with any degree of accuracy.
Groepaz
given that the subject can select the tunes used for the test - it will be
very easy to tell, trust me :)
David Murray
> given that the subject can select the tunes used for the test - it will be
> very easy to tell, trust me :)
I'm not arguing with that, but my original statement still stands.
How many people would be able to tell the difference? Lets assume you
took people who were not into Commodore at all, then I would say you
would have nobody that could tell. Then if you took people who were
occasional commodore fans, I bet the result would still be 0. Then if
you took the really hard-core fans I think the number might be 1 or 2
people. Then if you took the people who are hard-core commodore fans
and also hard-core SID fans then you might get 7 or 8 people that can
tell. After all, I consider myself a hard-core commodore fan and I
can't tell the difference between VICE and the real thing. Now if I
tried real hard and trained myself, maybe I could.
Groepaz
seriously, everyone can tell the difference easily. try the dracula tune
mentioned earlier in the thread and listen to it on the old resid engine
(which is already a lot better than this propeller emu thing).
and yeah, by now its kinda hard to tell the difference between resid-fp and
the real thing. because resid-fp became pretty damn good recently. thats
completely irrelevant though, because we aren't discussing resid-fp, we are
discussing that propeller emu thingy :)
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Groepaz
so, did anything come out of this?
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Andreas Varga
> Becky wrote:
>
>>
>>> MUSICIANS\D\Dunn_David\Flight_Path_737.sid (6581)
>>> MUSICIANS\R\Radiantx\Into_the_Chambers_of_Dracu.sid (8580)
>>>
>>> As far as I know both require particularly accurate SID emulation for
>>> correct sound.
>>
>> Thanks.. I'll see if I can get the author of the software emulator to
>> capture these as my method really doesn't do it justice.
>
> so, did anything come out of this?
It's obviously a very simple emulation, as the author hasn't even read the most
obvious SID documentation available.
The SID's sawtooth wave counts up, not down. So this emulation is not based
on the actual phase accumulator design of the SID.
This means that you'll get acceptable results on old tunes, but
anything slightly
more advanced will break and sound horrible.
I'd really like to hear some of those:
/MUSICIANS/J/Jammer/Mr_Marvellous.sid (8580, good test for combined
waveforms, sync and ringmod)
/MUSICIANS/M/Mitch_and_Dane/Dane/Pseudocode.sid (8580, will break if
timing is not 100% correct)
/MUSICIANS/F/Fanta/Fanta_in_Space.sid (8580, needs correct phase
accumulator emulation for 8bit sample playback)
/MUSICIANS/D/DRAX/Break-up.sid (6581, nice test of filter distortion)
I doubt that it can emulate those SIDs with acceptable results.
So you're probably much better off right now using MP3 files, because
what good is it to have the whole HVSC
available, if the good tunes don't play correctly?
Cheers,
Andreas
Oldbitcollector
> I doubt that it can emulate those SIDs with acceptable results.
> So you're probably much better off right now using MP3 files, because
> what good is it to have the whole HVSC
> available, if the good tunes don't play correctly?
>
I haven't had a chance to play with the latest requests. (They are on
my TODO list!)
however I can tell you that we aren't up to the level of playing SIDs
with samples yet.
We do have the kit finished and it is online at:
http://www.gadgetgangster.com/find-a-project/56?projectnum=236
It's an easy assemble kit for someone with basic soldering skills.
For instance the resistors are all the
same value, and the PCD is well labeled.
I'd love to hear honest reviews for anyone who builds one.
Thanks!
OBC
Groepaz
> We do have the kit finished and it is online at:
> http://www.gadgetgangster.com/find-a-project/56?projectnum=236
> It's an easy assemble kit for someone with basic soldering skills.
> For instance the resistors are all the
> same value, and the PCD is well labeled.
>
> I'd love to hear honest reviews for anyone who builds one.
and i'd seriously expect to hear some of the mentioned tunes before i'd even
remotely think about plugging in my soldering iron :o)
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Programming is one of the most difficult branches of applied mathematics;
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<Edsgar W. Dijkstra>
Oldbitcollector
>
> and i'd seriously expect to hear some of the mentioned tunes before i'd even
> remotely think about plugging in my soldering iron :o)
Sorry, you guys will have to be limited to the 12 tune demo MP3 which
I just
uploaded to the aforementioned link (toward the bottom under
Resources)
My own capture setup sucks, but Ahle captured that one in high
quality.
OBC
Groepaz
"Super Hi-Quality hardware-based playback at 31kHz sample rate"
high quality eh? .... o_O
- gianna filter sweep -> wrong
- boten anna bass -> wrong
- ocean loader lead -> wrong
- lightforce bass -> wrong (oh SO wrong =P)
- cybernoid -> wrong (where are the sweet sweeps ?)
last not least, pretty much generally every snare drum / hihat sound
(typically made of short noise+filtering) sounds, you guessed it -> wrong
i dont know really. the whole thing looks (sounds) to me half finished. the
basic concepts work, but it isnt quite there yet. pretty much like the state
of sid emulation a couple of years ago.
that said, i am still curious about hearing the tunes mentioned before (and
i dont care wether they are captured in "high quality" - whatever that
means. i can well distinguish between bad emulation and general noise :))
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Oldbitcollector
C= community anymore and have prompted consideration of not doing
further projects this direction. I never intended or boasted that
this was a "perfect" replacement for a SID chip. The idea here is to
have a fun, easy to assemble project which does a reasonable emulation
of SID music so that enthusiasts like myself can take SID music on the
go.
I've been again reminded that comp.sys.cbm contains a lot of folks who
produce nothing themselves and have plenty of time to be critical of
attempts by those who are doing.
The project is what it is. I'm sure many will enjoy it. Don't
bother to respond with more of the same. I'm pretty sure that I've no
time for that baggage and will likely not return to read it.
OBC
Joe Forster/STA
> produce nothing themselves and have plenty of time to be critical of
> attempts by those who are doing.
Groepaz is not exactly the kind of person you're referring to. ;-)
Other than that, I definitely agree!
iAN CooG
>> I've been again reminded that comp.sys.cbm contains a lot of folks
>> who produce nothing themselves and have plenty of time to be
>> critical of attempts by those who are doing.
Just replace "comp.sys.cbm" with any NG or Forum, despite the argument, and
it's always true. =)
Joe Forster/STA <s...@c64.org> wrote:
> Groepaz is not exactly the kind of person you're referring to. ;-)
> Other than that, I definitely agree!
Exactly, he just wanted to know, like many of us, how much "The final
product is extremely good and sounds very close to the real thing" sentence
on the 1st post was true, and anyone that doesn't just listen to 1983 sid
songs knows there is a big difference.
--
-=[]=--- iAN CooG/HVSC & C64Intros ---=[]=-
Groepaz
> Many parts of this thread have reminded me why I do very little in the
> C= community anymore and have prompted consideration of not doing
> further projects this direction.
somehow it reminds me more of the folks in the "community" who get all all
touchy and offended as soon as someone critisises whatever they are doing,
and then turn around and ignore the critics, because they know everything
better anyway. instead of listening and eventually understanding why the
critics, and maybe even how to improve their project.
> I never intended or boasted that
> this was a "perfect" replacement for a SID chip. The idea here is to
> have a fun, easy to assemble project which does a reasonable emulation
> of SID music so that enthusiasts like myself can take SID music on the
> go.
i dont have the original posts anymore for reference - so i can only refer
to the website. and according to the website, there is indeed the one or the
other mention of "perfect" and "super high quality". and thats pretty much
exactly why i and others requested a few more tunes - because the example
doesnt quite match what the website claims.
> I've been again reminded that comp.sys.cbm contains a lot of folks who
> produce nothing themselves and have plenty of time to be critical of
> attempts by those who are doing.
one thing i learned from the countless projects i have done is - ignore the
critics, but listen to them. they are eventually right. other than that, i
cant feel adressed by that, sorry :)
> The project is what it is. I'm sure many will enjoy it. Don't
> bother to respond with more of the same. I'm pretty sure that I've no
> time for that baggage and will likely not return to read it.
like you dont bother to simply upload said tunes? no really, if you think
your "capture setup" (whatever that means, besides a cable, a soundcard, and
a pc) is to blame and people couldnt judge the emulation quality anymore
because of a bit of added noise... oh well. sorry to say but, it sounds like
a cheap excuse to me.
dont get me wrong, i like that kind of projects. thumbs up for all the
effort. but that doesnt mean i wont be very critical about it, especially
when it comes to emulation quality of whatever. i fire critics into the
general direction of the vice team almost daily, not because i want to put
it down, but because my only interest is to increase emulation accuracy. and
guess what, a lot of things are now improved, some of which might not even
got noticed if i didnt make my infamous list back then (
http://hitmen.c02.at/files/docs/c64/c64_emulator_bugs.txt ). notice how this
isnt all that different to the list of problems of your sid engine that i
posted. you shouldnt be there whining about those thankless people who
demand chambers of dracula working - you should take it as a hint, examine
the tune, and improve your emulation. many others would be happy if their
users cared enough to actually dig out testcases, i usually prefer it over
"uh it sucks" atleast :)
--
http://www.hitmen-console.org http://magicdisk.untergrund.net
http://www.pokefinder.org http://ftp.pokefinder.org
Nobody needs to tell me what I believe. But I do need somebody to tell me
where Kosovo is.
<George W. Bush>