Using VGA/LCD monitor with a IIgs?
Sam Latella
Apple II Forever?
Steven Hirsch
> Are there any real cards besides the SecondSight card which came out a few
> years ago that will allow a IIgs to use an LCD monitor or a VGA monitor?
Poke through the history of this list over the past 2-3 years and you'll find
a lot of discussion on the subject.
Sam Latella
I've done quite a bit of research, and I'm not to sure about SCART convertor
yet... still looks like the best bet.
Any other IIgs users using there IIgs with VGA/LCD monitors?
I knew I shouldn't have sold my SecondSight card a few years ago... oh
well! Hingsight is always 20/20
Sam
Apple II Forever, IBM Never!!
Steven Hirsch
> I've done quite a bit of research, and I'm not to sure about SCART convertor
> yet... still looks like the best bet.
I'm quite happy with mine. A bit pricey, but mitigated by the fact that it's
also the best Amiga scan-doubler I've ever seen. I bought a SCART switchbox
to select between the IIGS and a couple of my Amigas.
Sam Latella
Okay, if I go with the SCART convertor. I'll have to customize a cable from
the IIgs 9pin to the SCART 15pin.
Can I cheat and use an old Mac 9pin to 15pin adapter... would the pin
structure be the same?
If not can I easily modify the adapter?
Thanks Sam
Sam Latella
This might be a very mute point, but I'm looking to invest a little bit more
in my trusty GS.
From my understanding the Carte Blanche can handle VGA output to an LCD
monitor.
Now it may not be perfect for the GS/OS system software. I would like the
output to be the
same as the IIgs RGB monitor.
What if I added a SCART converter onto the Carte Blanche VGA output. I
would presume that the
output would be close the IIgs RGB monitor output correct?
The hardware upgrades I would like to purchase are all about bringing the
IIgs along with the times.
Thanks in advance for any input and help on the subject.
Sam
Steve
> Now it may not be perfect for the GS/OS system software. I would like the
> output to be the
> same as the IIgs RGB monitor.
Carte Blanche can generate these signals as discrete RGB+V+H (or
Composite sync). Its just a matter of getting around to doing it. The
15.625KHz refresh is not that popular anymore. VGA (31khz) is the
favorite.
>
> What if I added a SCART converter onto the Carte Blanche VGA output. I
> would presume that the
> output would be close the IIgs RGB monitor output correct?
I would expect it to work fine, although I have not done this myself.
But a true 15.625KHz CB video design would give you the same crisp and
clear colours as what you would get with a VGA display (as long as
your old CRT monitor was in good shape).
>
> The hardware upgrades I would like to purchase are all about bringing the
> IIgs along with the times.
15.625KHz is toast. 31KHz VGA is barely hanging in there. HDMI seems
to be the standard at the moment. Plug on HDMI is my next project.
>
> Thanks in advance for any input and help on the subject.
>
> Sam
Its also important to note, that JAT01 for Carte Blanche currently
does not support IIGS video. Maybe in JAT02 if there is a demand.
A good reference on IIGS video is here;
http://www.1000bit.it/support/manuali/apple/technotes/iigs/tn.iigs.068.html
Steve
Nick Westgate
> 15.625KHz is toast. 31KHz VGA is barely hanging in there. HDMI seems
> to be the standard at the moment. Plug on HDMI is my next project.
That would be awesome!
> Its also important to note, that JAT01 for Carte Blanche currently
> does not support IIGS video. Maybe in JAT02 if there is a demand.
That would be, uh, awesomer!
> A good reference on IIGS video is here;
> http://www.1000bit.it/support/manuali/apple/technotes/iigs/tn.iigs.06...
You mean the M2B0 signal in slot 3 part? I didn't know that.
Cheers,
Nick.
amart...@gmail.com
An apple2gs vga project is underway at the current moment at we are
finalizing the 2c and 2e solution. while this is almost finished up,
we will tackle both the 2+ and 2gs versions as well. Its just a
matter of time.
Steven Hirsch
> Good to know.
>
> Okay, if I go with the SCART convertor. I'll have to customize a cable from
> the IIgs 9pin to the SCART 15pin.
> Can I cheat and use an old Mac 9pin to 15pin adapter... would the pin
> structure be the same?
I think you may be confused. The IIGS video is a DB15 (standard sized, not
high-density as in VGA style). SCART uses a very unique rectangular connector
with angled locator on one end. There's nothing in the chain that would
connect to either end of your Mac adapter. Roger Johnstone at Vintageware
http://vintageware.orconhosting.net.nz/index.html
builds the necessary SCART <--> IIGS adapter cable. You may need to play with
where the Highway 100 converter gets its composite video reference signal
(basically composite sync in RGB applications). Some of us have had good
results deriving it from the IIGS composite video output (pin 12) and others
find that composite sync out (pin 3) is better. Either way, it's a simple change.
Steve
sporadic
> Are there any real cards besides the SecondSight card which came out a few years ago that will allow a IIgs to use an LCD monitor or a VGA monitor?
>
> Apple II Forever?
It's been years since I sold off the ZipGSX and went to a 486DX-40,
but lately I've been feeling a lot of nostalgia for the old Apple
IIgs. My GS still works after all these years, and I even bought a
couple more GS off ebay recently, just so I'd have backup :) Anyway,
I've been researching alternative displays as well, preferable LCD. I
found a discussion that referred to this device:
http://ambery.com/rgbcgatovgac.html
$92 for the box and another $10 for the cable. I'm kinda tempted to
buy it. Then again, I'd also like to support the UltimateApple2
effort, and wait for the GS to VGA converter. I may pick up the
IIe2VGA when it's available, my old Apple IIe still works too!
Jimmy
CallAppleMag
> Are there any real cards besides the SecondSight card which came out a few years ago that will allow a IIgs to use an LCD monitor or a VGA monitor?
>
> Apple II Forever?
We use the XRGB-2 for our LCD monitors with the IIgs. It has a scart
connector and is easily cabled with information from Jim Maricondo's
website at http://www.maricondo.org/
I would say that is your best bet. (That is until someone finishes a
new converter card).
sporadic
Great news! I can confirm the Ambery box works with the GS! Ordered
on the day before Thanksgiving and it just arrived today! I tested on
an old Viewsonic 15" CRT, a Viewsonic P90f 19" CRT, and a Acer 24"
LCD. Ran demos like Modulae and Nucleus, and also the control panel
in 40/80 columns. Overall I'm very pleased with the quality of the
output (the 80 columns output was not as crisp as 40, but workable.
There's something oddly satisfying seeing an old GS demo running on a
24" LCD :) And I don't have to worry about the AppleColor RGB dying
on me anymore!
Basically, just make sure you wire the Red, Green, and Blue and
Composite Sync wires correctly between the GS DB15 and the VGA HD15,
the other signal grounds can pretty much be any other VGA ground
wires. I used the NEC Multisync II pinout and the Ambery VGA pinout
as a bridge to match the correct GS DB15 pins to the final VGA HD15
connector.
I built the cable myself by splicing a HD15 VGA cable and a DB15MM
cable from eBay for ~$8 (should be advertised as a Mac monitor
cable). It wasn't pretty but it works great!
Here are the links I found for the pin-out, easy enough to find but I
thought I include them:
Pin Function
1 Red video ground
2 Red composite video
3 Composite sync
4 (not used)
5 Green composite video
6 Green video ground
7 (not used)
8 (not used)
9 Blue composite video
10 (not used)
11 (not used)
12 (not used)
13 Blue video ground
14 (not used)
15 (not used)
Shell Shield ground
NEC Multisync II Dsub-9 IIgs Dsub-15
1 Red 2 Red
2 Green 5 Green
3 Blue 9 Blue
4 Horizontal Sync 3 Composite Sync
5 Vertical Sync (NC)*
6 Red GND 1 Red GND
7 Green GND 6 Green GND
8 Blue GND 13 Blue GND
9 GND
Hope this helps until the GS2VGA thing is completed!
Regards,
Jimmy
Steven Hirsch
> Great news! I can confirm the Ambery box works with the GS! Ordered
> on the day before Thanksgiving and it just arrived today! I tested on
> an old Viewsonic 15" CRT, a Viewsonic P90f 19" CRT, and a Acer 24"
> LCD. Ran demos like Modulae and Nucleus, and also the control panel
> in 40/80 columns. Overall I'm very pleased with the quality of the
> output (the 80 columns output was not as crisp as 40, but workable.
Can you publish some screen shots? In particular, I'd like to see what the
80-column text mode looks like. I'm not a gamer, but do care about being able
to use programming tools.
Steve
sporadic
Hi Steve,
Here are a few pics I just took:
http://picasaweb.google.com/sporadically/GSOnAcer24LCDWithAmbery#
I didn't have a tripod and I guess my hands weren't particularly
steady tonight :) I'll try to get some better pictures this weekend
but hopefully these will give you some idea.
I'm waiting for the MicroDrive to arrive from ReactiveMicro so I'm
limited to programs on the 3.5" floppies so no pictures from the GSOS
side.
Jimmy
Michael J. Mahon
Another critical screen is the GSOS desktop.
-michael
NadaNet and AppleCrate II: parallel computing for Apple II computers!
Home page: http://home.comcast.net/~mjmahon
"The wastebasket is our most important design
tool--and it's seriously underused."
Steven Hirsch
>> Can you publish some screen shots? In particular, I'd like to see what the
>> 80-column text mode looks like. I'm not a gamer, but do care about being able
>> to use programming tools.
> Here are a few pics I just took:
>
> http://picasaweb.google.com/sporadically/GSOnAcer24LCDWithAmbery#
I don't think any of those are 80-column text mode, are they? And, as Mike
added, it would be nice to see the GSOS desktop.
sporadic
Pics 1 & 2 are 40 columns, 3 & 4 are 80 columns. I'm waiting for the
MicroDrive to show up so until then, I probably won't have easy access
to the GSOS desktop. I'll look for the system 6 setup disk, it's
gotta be here somewhere.
Jimmy
MdntTrain
A friend tested this unit. It crapped out on 16mhz video
(640x200). Maybe you'll have better luck.
jS
sporadic
So is the GS Finder desktop 640x200? I nearly broke out in a cold
sweat when I read this and I had to find the GSOS disk. Well, I'm
still happy to report that it's working for me. I've updated the
picasa album with 3 more pictures from the Finder desktop. I also
found a disk labeled Slide.3200.Vol#3, and ShowAll 3200 SmallPic,
which I vaguely recall as the palette switching 3200 color pics. They
also displayed via the Ambery on the Acer 24" LCD.
I'll be happy to take more pictures this weekend, with better lighting
and steadier hands:
http://picasaweb.google.com/sporadically/GSOnAcer24LCDWithAmbery#
Jimmy
Michael J. Mahon
All the vertical stripes are the problem with 16MHz. Ideally it would
be a non-distracting solid light blue (produced by a 16MHz dither
between dark blue and white [8MHz fundamental]).
Steven Hirsch
>>> A friend tested this unit. It crapped out on 16mhz video
>>> (640x200). Maybe you'll have better luck.
>>
>> sweat when I read this and I had to find the GSOS disk. Well, I'm
>> still happy to report that it's working for me. I've updated the
>> picasa album with 3 more pictures from the Finder desktop. I also
>> found a disk labeled Slide.3200.Vol#3, and ShowAll 3200 SmallPic,
>> which I vaguely recall as the palette switching 3200 color pics. They
>> also displayed via the Ambery on the Acer 24" LCD.
>>
>> I'll be happy to take more pictures this weekend, with better lighting
>> and steadier hands:
>>
>> http://picasaweb.google.com/sporadically/GSOnAcer24LCDWithAmbery#
>
> All the vertical stripes are the problem with 16MHz. Ideally it would
> be a non-distracting solid light blue (produced by a 16MHz dither
> between dark blue and white [8MHz fundamental]).
Yes, the Highway 100 does a far better job on the desktop background.
Unfortunately it's also the high-priced spread :-).
MdntTrain
>
> - Show quoted text -
Spor, see all those alternating lines that Michael points out?
That's what I meant by "crapping out" on the 16mhz (640x200) video.
You do get video, and decent b&w video at that, but I personally find
the striping unacceptable.
jS
sporadic
Ah ok, it's been so long since I seen the Finder, I don't really
recall how it should look. I had interpreted "crapped out" as no sync/
no display. Well, I think given my intended usage, the Ambery box
still meets my needs so I'm going to keep it until the GS2VGA solution
becomes available. Bummer! I'll send an email to Ambery and see if
this is something they can address in the design. What resolutions
does Amiga support? Ambery states Amiga is supported, so is the
640x200 16MHz signal found on Amigas as well?
Jimmy
Steven Hirsch
>> Spor, see all those alternating lines that Michael points out?
>> That's what I meant by "crapping out" on the 16mhz (640x200) video.
>> You do get video, and decent b&w video at that, but I personally find
>> the striping unacceptable.
>
> Ah ok, it's been so long since I seen the Finder, I don't really
> recall how it should look. I had interpreted "crapped out" as no sync/
> no display. Well, I think given my intended usage, the Ambery box
> still meets my needs so I'm going to keep it until the GS2VGA solution
> becomes available. Bummer! I'll send an email to Ambery and see if
> this is something they can address in the design. What resolutions
> does Amiga support? Ambery states Amiga is supported, so is the
> 640x200 16MHz signal found on Amigas as well?
Amigas provide a video signal that is closely NTSC-compliant. I think it's an
easier problem.
MdntTrain
The problem, I believe, is twofold. One, the IIgs is using
dithering... deliberately displaying, as Michael pointed out,
alternating lines of different colors in order to phosphor mix a new
one. The Ambery is faithfully showing these lines, but your monitor
isn't doing the mixing (as a low dot pitch crt would have).
The second problem is aliasing. Appears the Ambery isn't quite
locking onto the IIgs dot clock correctly.. thus some black lines and
other unwanted artifacts are showing. This could be because of
Apple's 64 1/2 cycles or whatever. The Amiga likely has truer video
timing, easier to lock on to.
If I said anything wrong, someone please correct me.
jS
pitz
I'm getting curious about this. As I understand it, the Finder
desktop is 640 across. From the Ambery web site specs, the box can
output 640x480, 1024x768, or 1366x768, depending on switch selection.
I'm guessing that the 640x480 setting is what's been selected. What
about that blue margin around the desktop? If the Ambery box is
receiving that, is there an intelligent way of stripping that so that
it maps better to the 640-pixel output setting?
Looking at sporadic's pictures, I'm guessing that the LCD is set to
not expand the input to fill the screen (and we could rule out
dithering by the monitor). So is the dithering being applied by the
Ambery box?
sporadic
The Ambery output is set to 1366x768, and the Acer is set to display 1-
to-1 aspect ration without any scaling. I'll try the 640x480 and
1024x768 output tonight, and also try the old Viewsonic 15" to see if
the dithering is "better" with the old CRT. I'm also going to build a
proper cable this weekend, the current cable is one that I spliced and
basically twisted the wires together and wrapped with electrical
tape. Assuming a shielded cable will improve the image quality.
The blue margin is the standard GS border, I should be able to change
the color in the control panel to verify that.
Pitz, feel free to swing by this weekend if you have time and see it
for yourself.
Jimmy
Michael J. Mahon
The "dither" is actually a beat (alias) between the box's input sampling
frequency (likely unrelated to output resolution) and the IIgs 16MHz SHR
pixel rate.
Michael J. Mahon
The real issue is only tangentially related to resolution--it is the
need for the input sampling clock to lock to some multiple of the
16MHz IIgs dot clock.
Michael J. Mahon
;-)
The duration of a horizontal line is much less problematic than
the fact that this box's input sampler clock will not lock to
a multiple of the IIgs dot clock.
If it won't lock, then it must at least oversample significantly
(3x-4x) to avoid generating a lot of aliasing artifacts.