Documentation wanted
sfahey
I'm looking for any and all documentaion on any of the Apple //c hard drives
that were produced. This includes the ProApp, Chinook and Quark -- any
technical info would be welcome in addition to user manuals.
I'd to get this info in wider circulation in the hopes someone will develop a
mass storage solution for the Apple //c that is compatible with existing //c
peripherals.
Thanks in advance.
Sean Fahey
www.a2central.com
bbs.a2central.com
D Finnigan
I'm pretty sure that Pitz has the manual for the Chinook.
rhohler
A picture of the manual...
http://picasaweb.google.com/simplepractices/ChinookTechnologiesCT40c#5149417583099649346
mdj
wrote:
> I'm looking for any and all documentaion on any of the Apple //c hard drives
> that were produced. This includes the ProApp, Chinook and Quark -- any
> technical info would be welcome in addition to user manuals.
>
> I'd to get this info in wider circulation in the hopes someone will develop a
> mass storage solution for the Apple //c that is compatible with existing //c
> peripherals.
The SmartPort (or Protocol Converter in older parlance) interface is
documented (albeit poorly) in the Apple IIGS Firmware Reference.
Implementing a storage solution for the IIc would require:
Understanding of the hardware protocol used to communicate with
SmartPort devices (Like the Unidisk 3.5" or the Chinook). You can grab
this from the aforementioned reference.
Understanding of the Smartport software protocol. I found the
disassembly of the IIc ROM in any of the reference manuals post the
original an excellent guide for this.
What's not documented at all as far as I can tell is the IWM, and
that's where it gets tricky. To get further, you're going to need
either a logic analyser, or very patiently reverse engineer the
encoded packets.
Certainly not a project for the faint of heart, which is why alas it
hasn't been done yet :-(
Matt
Toinet
> (cut cut)
>
> What's not documented at all as far as I can tell is the IWM, and
> that's where it gets tricky. To get further, you're going to need
> either a logic analyser, or very patiently reverse engineer the
> encoded packets.
>
Hi Matt,
Please tell me what is missing there: http://www.brutal-deluxe.fr/documentation/iwm.html
? What would you like to get?
Antoine
mdj
Actually, I think that might just cover it, combined with the source
code in the aforementioned IIc technical manual.
I had no idea that information had ever been recovered. Thanks very
much for making it available!
Matt
Toinet
You're welcome,
A souvenir from the original owner of my Apple IIgs a long long time
ago.
I also have some source code that may be useful, I will upload it in a
couple of days.
antoine
RedskullDC
"mdj" <mdj...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:96b95590-487e-4173...@m7g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> > What's not documented at all as far as I can tell is the IWM, and
> > that's where it gets tricky. To get further, you're going to need
> > either a logic analyser, or very patiently reverse engineer the
> > encoded packets.
>
> Hi Matt,
>
> Please tell me what is missing
> there:http://www.brutal-deluxe.fr/documentation/iwm.html
> ? What would you like to get?
Actually, I think that might just cover it, combined with the source
code in the aforementioned IIc technical manual.
I had no idea that information had ever been recovered. Thanks very
much for making it available!
Matt
----
IWM overkill!
Some practical examples, including source code:
http://web.aanet.com.au/~kalandi/apple/AUG/1991/11%20NOV.DEC/DISK.STUFF.html
http://web.aanet.com.au/~kalandi/apple/AUG/1991/11%20NOV.DEC/PROGRAM35DISK.html
Cheers,
Red
Toinet
> Hi Matt,
>
> "mdj" <mdj....@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:96b95590-487e-4173...@m7g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > What's not documented at all as far as I can tell is the IWM, and
> > > that's where it gets tricky. To get further, you're going to need
> > > either a logic analyser, or very patiently reverse engineer the
> > > encoded packets.
>
> > Hi Matt,
>
> > Please tell me what is missing
> > there:http://www.brutal-deluxe.fr/documentation/iwm.html
> > ? What would you like to get?
>
> Actually, I think that might just cover it, combined with the source
> code in the aforementioned IIc technical manual.
>
> I had no idea that information had ever been recovered. Thanks very
> much for making it available!
>
> Matt
>
> ----
>
> IWM overkill!
>
>
> Cheers,
> Red
OK. I will upload some other source codes and we will have fun :-)
antoine
Steven Hirsch
> Understanding of the hardware protocol used to communicate with
> SmartPort devices (Like the Unidisk 3.5" or the Chinook). You can grab
> this from the aforementioned reference.
> Understanding of the Smartport software protocol. I found the
> disassembly of the IIc ROM in any of the reference manuals post the
> original an excellent guide for this.
>
> What's not documented at all as far as I can tell is the IWM, and
> that's where it gets tricky. To get further, you're going to need
> either a logic analyser, or very patiently reverse engineer the
> encoded packets.
I was always under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that the IIc used direct
hardware twiddling for hard-drive support on the Smartport. In other words,
that it bypassed the firmware and IWM chip with bit-banging.
Will have to take a look at that documentation.
If it's of historical interest, I still have the official "Protocol Converter"
specification that Applied Engineering sent me when I was writing Unidisk 3.5
support for the AE Z80 card. Probably worth scanning and archiving.
Steve
Toinet
> (cut cut)
> If it's of historical interest, I still have the official "Protocol Converter"
> specification that Applied Engineering sent me when I was writing Unidisk 3.5
> support for the AE Z80 card. Probably worth scanning and archiving.
>
> Steve
Steve,
I'd be glad to add your "Protocol Converter" specification to the
documentation section of brutal-deluxe.fr
antoine
Garberstreet Electronics
"RedskullDC" <redsk...@oohay.moc.ua> wrote in message
news:RQuIm.52285$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Hi Matt,
>
> "mdj" <mdj...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:96b95590-487e-4173...@m7g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>> > What's not documented at all as far as I can tell is the IWM, and
>> > that's where it gets tricky. To get further, you're going to need
>> > either a logic analyser, or very patiently reverse engineer the
>> > encoded packets.
>>
>> Hi Matt,
>>
>> Please tell me what is missing
>> there:http://www.brutal-deluxe.fr/documentation/iwm.html
>> ? What would you like to get?
>
> Actually, I think that might just cover it, combined with the source
> code in the aforementioned IIc technical manual.
>
> I had no idea that information had ever been recovered. Thanks very
> much for making it available!
>
> Matt
>
>
> Some practical examples, including source code:
> http://web.aanet.com.au/~kalandi/apple/AUG/1991/11%20NOV.DEC/DISK.STUFF.html
> http://web.aanet.com.au/~kalandi/apple/AUG/1991/11%20NOV.DEC/PROGRAM35DISK.html
>
> Cheers,
> Red
Both of those are combined together in the one PDF called
"Controlling the 3.5 drive hardware on the Apple IIGS" at
Brutal Deluxe's web site, posted earlier in this thread. :-)
Bill Garber of Garberstreet Electronics
http://www.garberstreet.com
Garberstreet Electronics
"Toinet" <antoine...@laposte.net> wrote in message
news:83b412e4-f74f-4aee...@k17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
I have them already. I sent them to Antoine via email.
Steven, check them to be sure they are the same ones.
Thanks,
sfahey
Re: Re: Documentation wanted
By: Steven Hirsch to comp.sys.apple2 on Thu Nov 05 2009 07:48 am
> If it's of historical interest, I still have the official "Protocol Converte
> specification that Applied Engineering sent me when I was writing Unidisk 3.
> support for the AE Z80 card. Probably worth scanning and archiving.
Yes, PLEASE!
Sean Fahey
www.a2central.com
bbs.a2central.com
Garberstreet Electronics
"Garberstreet Electronics" <will...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:kuOdnW0DoYjEc2_X...@giganews.com...
Also, that "Protocol Converter Calls" PDF has been on my
web site's downloads section for quite some time. :-)))
In the "DOCS" folder. Does anyone even go there? :-(((
mdj
> mdj wrote:
> > Understanding of the hardware protocol used to communicate with
> > SmartPort devices (Like the Unidisk 3.5" or the Chinook). You can grab
> > this from the aforementioned reference.
> > Understanding of the Smartport software protocol. I found the
> > disassembly of the IIc ROM in any of the reference manuals post the
> > original an excellent guide for this.
>
> > What's not documented at all as far as I can tell is the IWM, and
> > that's where it gets tricky. To get further, you're going to need
> > either a logic analyser, or very patiently reverse engineer the
> > encoded packets.
>
> I was always under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that the IIc used direct
> hardware twiddling for hard-drive support on the Smartport. In other words,
> that it bypassed the firmware and IWM chip with bit-banging.
>
> Will have to take a look at that documentation.
It's the Apple II world equivalent of the "Improbability Drive" :-)
Bit banging is used for negotiation, for instance to reset all devices
on a SmartPort bus and to perform a form of handshaking very similar
to rs232. Actual data is transmitted via the IWM in packets that more
or less match the smartport commands, in chunks that are checksummed.
They went out of their way to ensure data integrity and reliability on
relatively long physical smartport busses.
> If it's of historical interest, I still have the official "Protocol Converter"
> specification that Applied Engineering sent me when I was writing Unidisk 3.5
> support for the AE Z80 card. Probably worth scanning and archiving.
If it covers more than just the firmware interface, it'd be well worth
having, but I suspect it doesn't as I have a similar sounding document
here; it was an addendum to the IIc reference manual after the unidisk
rom update, before the SmartPort naming convention was used.
Matt
Toinet
wrote:
> "Garberstreet Electronics" <willy4...@comcast.net> wrote in messagenews:kuOdnW0DoYjEc2_X...@giganews.com...
>
> > "Toinet" <antoine.vig...@laposte.net> wrote in message
> >news:83b412e4-f74f-4aee...@k17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
> > On 5 nov, 13:48, Steven Hirsch <snhir...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> (cut cut)
> >>> If it's of historical interest, I still have the official
> >>> "Protocol Converter" specification that Applied Engineering
> >>> sent me when I was writing Unidisk 3.5 support for the AE
> >>> Z80 card. Probably worth scanning and archiving.
>
> >>> Steve
>
> >> Steve,
>
> >> I'd be glad to add your "Protocol Converter" specification
> >> to the documentation section of brutal-deluxe.fr
>
> >> antoine
>
> > I have them already. I sent them to Antoine via email.
>
> > Steven, check them to be sure they are the same ones.
>
> > Thanks,
>
> Also, that "Protocol Converter Calls" PDF has been on my
> web site's downloads section for quite some time. :-)))
>
> In the "DOCS" folder. Does anyone even go there? :-(((
>
> Bill Garber of Garberstreet Electronicshttp://www.garberstreet.com
Thank you Bill, I uploaded the docs to brutal-deluxe.fr as well.
antoine
BluPhoenyx
Garberstreet Electronics wrote:
>
> Also, that "Protocol Converter Calls" PDF has been on my web site's
> downloads section for quite some time. :-)))
> In the "DOCS" folder. Does anyone even go there? :-(((
FWIW Bill, I just went there and snagged a couple of files. Thanks for
the resource!
Cheers,
Mike T