mass storage for Apple //c

[Ivan X]

So I've been playing around with the (relatively new) VDRIVE component of the ADTPro package. It lets you access a ProDOS disk image of whatever size, called "Virtual.po" in the "disks" folder of a computer running the ADTPro server software.

But it works over serial, so you don't need an Uthernet card or whatever, only a USB-to-RS232 cable. You just run VSDRIVE from BASIC.SYSTEM and then the disk image mounts as S2D1. You can CAT,S2 and go to town.

So then Raspberry Pi. It's cheap and small enough that It could really be a mass storage card for a //c (or any other Apple II). After much futzing, it works, and It's super cool. I managed to also get it to work with a ProDOS disk image over the internet. Apple II cloud computing!

Because the ADTPro server uses Java and various binary serial libraries, I had to:

- get Java 1.8 early access for ARM-hf (https://jdk8.java.net/fxarmpreview/index.html)
- put it in /usr/local/java
- set JAVA_HOME=/usr/local/java/jdk1.8.0 in /etc/environment
- set PATH to include /usr/local/java/jdk1.8.0/bin in ~/.bashrc
- install librxtx-java package (via apt-get per usual)
- alter adtpro.sh to specify:
/usr/share/RXTXcomm.jar in the java classpath
-Djava.library.path=/usr/lib/jni
-Dgnu.io.rxtx.SerialPorts=/dev/ttyAMA0:/dev/ttyUSB0
- comment out the serial port gettys in /etc/inittab

Because I use my Pi headless, I also installed xrdp, which allows me to get to its desktop with an RDP or VNC client on my Mac. Then, from an xterm on the Pi desktop, I ran ADTPro, chose the ttyUSB0 serial port at 115200, and I was able to bootstrap VDRIVE and go to town.

Then I found socat, which bridges a serial port to a TCP port, and since the ADTPro server now has a feature to talk to a TCP port, I was able to actually run ADTPro in my office, poke a hole in my router at home to access the Pi via SSH, and forward the socat port through the tunnel from work to home, so the ADTPro server at work could "make contact" with the serial port on the pi. So I could CAT,S2 and access a ProDOS disk in a remote location. THAT IS COOL. (I could have also done it with a direct port forward rather than SSH tunnel, but then all my precious Apple II top secret documents wouldn't be encrypted.)

I'm kind of excited about this. And the Raspberry Pi model A (the $25 one with only a single USB and no Ethernet) can supposedly be powered with 5v 300 mA, which makes me wonder if the 12v 300 mA pin on the //c video expansion port can be used with some sort of device to reduce the voltage, and then the Pi becomes a true self-contained storage device for the //c. (I'm completely clueless when it comes to electricity, so I don't know how viable this is.)

Now I gotta see how much software is happy when using VDRIVE.

[BLuRry]

Not much software unfortunately. I tried to launch Apple ][ Desktop and it fell over. I've made it a point to write a VSDriver modification that loads in a more stable location -- no time to work on that now though. :-(

-B

[osgeld]

interesting I can load the apple II desktop without any issue

[David Schmidt]

> interesting I can load the apple II desktop without any issue

I have to agree with BLuRry - the list isn't long. But at least you do
have the ability to choose between two locations, including overwriting
the Disk II driver. Which, for the IIc+ is no great loss, actually.

[Riccardo]

> I'm kind of excited about this. And the Raspberry Pi model A (the $25 one with only a single USB and no Ethernet) can supposedly be powered with 5v 300 mA, which makes me wonder if the 12v 300 mA pin on the //c video expansion port can be used with some sort of device to reduce the voltage, and then the Pi becomes a true self-contained storage device for the //c. (I'm completely clueless when it comes to electricity, so I don't know how viable this is.)

You can use +5V - GND from: External disk port, Game port or direct from internal power supply grid by two wires (but is a rough work to see).

Ric.

[Michael M.]

On 2013-05-20 11:31 AM, osgeld wrote:
> interesting I can load the apple II desktop without any issue

I haven't had any problems loading it either.

--
.---------------------------------------.
| |\/| | Michael M. (mos6502geek) |
| | | |\/| | ========================= |
| | | | | | Vintage computer hobbyist |
'---------------------------------------'

[Michael M.]

I had a very similar idea, except I never thought of remote access with
a serial to TCP bridge, that's awesome.

I haven't had much time lately to work on any of my ideas and projects,
or even do anything other than school work (I'm in high school). I can't
wait until the summer break. I'm going to work on my loooong list of
projects that have been backed up since this school year started.

[Ivan X]

There's an excellent idea. I know Apple says that you're not supposed to draw more than 100 mA from the +5V pin on the game port -- does anyone have any idea what the max current available from the +5V pin on the disk connector is?

[Polymorph]

On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 3:04:34 PM UTC+10, Michael M. wrote:
> I haven't had much time lately to work on any of my ideas and projects,
>
> or even do anything other than school work (I'm in high school). I can't
>
> wait until the summer break. I'm going to work on my loooong list of
>
> projects that have been backed up since this school year started.
>

A high school student interested in the Apple ][ in 2013.... who'd-a-thunk-it? :-)

I'm starting to think that the guy who came up with "Apple II Forever" was really on to something!

Cheers,
Mike

[Michael J. Mahon]

Nothing actually limits the current drawn from any of the ports except the
total capability of the Apple's power supply (and the current-carrying
capacity of the connector, but that shouldn't be an issue).

-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://home.comcast.net/~mjmahon

[Michael M.]

On 2013-05-21 3:00 AM, Polymorph wrote:
> A high school student interested in the Apple ][ in 2013.... who'd-a-thunk-it? :-)

I think the reason that I'm into vintage computers is that the first
computer I could actually say _I owned_, was my Apple //c that I got in
2004. I got it from my Optometrist's office. Before I got it, it just
sat in the corner of their office collecting dust. Now since I got it,
I've been programming, playing games, transferring disks with ADTPro,
and using it as a terminal to my iMac.

> I'm starting to think that the guy who came up with "Apple II Forever" was really on to something!

I believe so :-)

[gid...@sasktel.net]

> A high school student interested in the Apple ][ in 2013.... who'd-a-thunk-it? :-)

> I'm starting to think that the guy who came up with "Apple II Forever" was really on to something!

> Cheers,
>
> Mike

And even better, we have another Michael M. to carry on

[Ivan X]

So I found this gizmo:

http://www.usconverters.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=70&products_id=404

It joins your wifi network and contains and bridges its RS232 serial to a TCP port, allowing data to pass back and forth between a TCP/IP application on the LAN (or WAN), and your Apple II. For power, it includes a 5v header (which can be attached to pin 6 on the external drive connector), or it also accepts mini-USB, or 5V on pin 9 of the DE-9. It also has a switch to put it into DTE or DCE mode. It's pretty slick.

So of course I wanted get an Apple //c to work with ADTPro and VSDRIVE, over WiFi. On my Mac, I configured the ADTPro server to use the IP address and TCP port of the serial-WiFi bridge, and started localhost mode (there's no button for this; you have to start it from the command line).

Anyway, IT WORKS...almost. It actually works fine on a IIgs. On my IIc Plus, VSDRIVE seems to be ok, though I saw one unexpected I/O ERROR. With ADTPro, it seems to read the data fine, and then during the first disk write, the ADTPro server appears to keep trying to send data, and aborts the transfer before the disk write can complete. This doesn't happen with a USB-to-serial cable directly attached to the same host computer. My guess is that it has something to do with the IIc's hardware handshaking weirdness (or lack thereof), but maybe it has to do with how the serial-WiFi bridge buffers, or maybe it's simply the fact that the IIgs writes the floppy much faster than the IIc Plus does (even at Normal speed).

I also don't know exactly where the serial cable that I'm using came from, so I might make my own per David's instructions on the ADTPro site with a regular //c. Also, there's a lot of parameters for the serial-wifi unit, so I haven't given up yet. If I can get it to work, this might be yet another option for the problem everyone's eager to solve, which is how to make a //c have a larger world than the floppy in its drive. (Though a Raspberry Pi might actually be cheaper, and Osgeld and Cedric's forthcoming creations might be easier.)

[Sean Fahey]

On Sunday, June 2, 2013 11:26:30 PM UTC-5, Ivan X wrote:

> So I found this gizmo:
>
> http://www.usconverters.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=70&products_id=404

I hope you're bringing all this cool stuff to KFest to show off.

[osgeld]

On Monday, May 20, 2013 9:58:18 AM UTC-5, Ivan X wrote:

dont forget about me =)

http://osgeld.a2hq.com/

[Bill Garber]

"osgeld" <ke...@hackaday.com> wrote in message
news:19e6ec15-aa89-4841...@googlegroups.com...

On Monday, May 20, 2013 9:58:18 AM UTC-5, Ivan X wrote:

> dont forget about me =) http://osgeld.a2hq.com/

Oh, I haven't forgotten... When does the sale begin?

Bill Garber
http://www.sepa-electronics.com

[osgeld]

On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 2:59:19 AM UTC-5, Bill Garber wrote:
> "osgeld" wrote in message

soon as I get ADT to play nice

[Riccardo]

The Maximum supply currents from internal converter are:

(Max Total power is 25 W)

+5V --> 1.5 A
+12V --> 0.6 A

- Be careful! If the currents are over this limits for few millisecond it can be like a short circuit and damage the circuits of the internal converter -

(see pag. 234 of Apple IIc Technical Reference Manual)

Ric.

[osgeld]

yea I guess the question is how much the computer draws at worst case off the 5 volt rail (floppy disk running, sound full blast, etc) since 1.5 amps is pretty beefy, but everything except the disk drive motors run off of 5 volts

[Riccardo]

> yea I guess the question is how much the computer draws at worst case off the 5 volt rail (floppy disk running, sound full blast, etc) since 1.5 amps is pretty beefy, but everything except the disk drive motors run off of 5 volts

The internal converter supply currents to all system: Any voltage line are your max output currents. Any line supply various component: For Example: 5V -> All internal ICs and, if connected, the external ICs of external devices. So, all depend of status of system and the number and type of external devices connected.
The converter have a system protection of short-circuit or Over range current, (by a feedback control - it can put down all voltage output to 0 V for safety), but, anyway, all depends to type of over load current (time/current curve). Right, all electrical motor have boot over-current (if the drive no have mechanical problem, it is normally support for few time by supply).

Ric.

[Michael J. Mahon]

The supply has internal protection. It will probably work fine--just give
it a try.

-michael (http://home.comcast.net/~mjmahon)

[Riccardo]

The converter have a system protection of short-circuit or over range current, (by a feedback control - it can put down all voltage output to 0 V for safety), but, anyway, all depends to type of over load current (time/current curve).

>
> The supply has internal protection. It will probably work fine--just give
>
> it a try.
>

Oh no thanks! :-)

(I don't trust of internal protection)

Ric.

[Michael J. Mahon]

The internal supply must protect itself from overloads, since there is no
fusing on any connectors to the outside world.

A bad power supply can fry a main board, but I've never seen a bad main
board (or joystick, or...) fry a power supply. They just shut down
(repeatedly) until the load is manageable.

[David Schmenk]

Actually, I have some ROM 0 //c's and they do have a fuse on the MB. Looks like a little glass cap near the back left. Couldn't find it on any schematics, but managed to "discover" it when I was making a 12 V car adapter.

Dave...

[Michael J. Mahon]

So I'm guessing it's on the external supply line, just in case the polarity
is reversed or voltage too high.

[David Schmenk]

"in case the polarity is reversed" Uh, certainly in my case :-(

[Ivan X]

So this thingamajig that I mentioned earlier, the USConverters WA232 (aka WiFly), is totally rocking and rolling. My IIc really has WiFi -- it can even power the damn thing. I am successfully able to write ADTPro disk images wirelessly served from a machine on my LAN, or over the internet. It's f'ing bonkers. VSDRIVE works too, even over internet.

(I can't actually make ADTPro work over WiFi with the IIc Plus, because the ADTPro client takes too long to write each chunk of the 800K disk, and the server gives up. But it's fine on the IIc, or an 800K disk on the IIgs, which writes the same chunk much more quickly.)

Though I'm still thinking a Pi attached to the IIc is cheaper, and can certainly do more; for example, you could boot up your ProTERM floppy, use it to log in to your Pi and download and decompress a disk image from wherever, and then serve it up via ADTPro server running on the Pi; then you could flip your floppy and boot the ADTPro client, and write the image you downloaded to another floppy. Or you could, from ProTERM, change the disk image VSDRIVE serves up (actually, this wouldn't be that easy to do unless you switch cables, or ADTPro could use the printer port, which it can't on my IIc's -- see other thread.)

And I'm looking forward to Osgeld's dedicated VSDRIVE device and of course the SmartPortVHD as well. There's suddenly never been a better time to be a IIc owner!

Yup, Sean, I'm going to bring everything to KFest that I can fit in my suitcase and a backpack.