Apple II Clones. How many sold?
datajerk
cannot seem to find any statistics on the number of Apple II clones
sold in the US or worldwide. I had a clone, as did most of my
friends. It was economics.
I ask this because according to Wikipedia, "During the Commodore 64's
lifetime, sales totalled 17 million units, making it the best-selling
single personal computer model of all time." (Yes totaled was spelled
wrong in the article--fixed now :-). And according to Wikipedia Apple
II sales sans the IIgs were less than 5 million. But the number of
clones are not taken into consideration. AFAIK the C64 was not cloned
(correct me here).
So, was the C64 the best-selling computer "model" of all time? Can
the ~200 different Apple II clones significantly increase the the
overall volume of the A2 family. I speculate no. Simply because my
clone was still 3x the cost of the C64. But I'd still like to know.
Thanks.
Happy Holidays.
P.S. I no longer have a clone, but a real //c that I acquired via eBay
about 3 months ago. It's wonderful.
sporadic
That's a pretty interesting question, with both legal and illegal
clones of the Apple II throughout the years and worldwide, I'd imagine
the number's gotta be greater than 5 million. Here's a list of Apple
II clones, most of these I've never even heard of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Apple_II_clones
Jimmy
mmphosis
Apple Disk II disk drive. A few years later, my friend bought an
Apple II clone for $700 including a clone disk drive. The C64
initially cost $1200 -- I don't know if that included the Commodore
disk drive. The price of the C64 soon dropped to $700, and later to
about $350.
How much did your clone cost?
I'd say that the C64 easily outsold both the Apple II and clones.
Raymond Wiker
> I ask this because according to Wikipedia, "During the Commodore 64's
> lifetime, sales totalled 17 million units, making it the best-selling
> single personal computer model of all time." (Yes totaled was spelled
> wrong in the article--fixed now :-).
"totalled" is a perfectly valid, alternative spelling of
"totaled"; changing this on wikipedia seems a bit rash.
larwe
> I ask this because according to Wikipedia, "During the Commodore 64's
> lifetime, sales totalled 17 million units, making it the best-selling
> single personal computer model of all time." (Yes totaled was spelled
>
> So, was the C64 the best-selling computer "model" of all time? Can
> the ~200 different Apple II clones significantly increase the the
> overall volume of the A2 family. I speculate no. Simply because my
Regardless, the C64 still wins - because those clones are not all the
same "model" of computer. Not even the same make!
It's very unlikely the C64 will ever be dethroned from its position.
Jeff Blakeney
datajerk wrote:
> So, was the C64 the best-selling computer "model" of all time? Can
> the ~200 different Apple II clones significantly increase the the
> overall volume of the A2 family. I speculate no. Simply because my
> clone was still 3x the cost of the C64. But I'd still like to know.
Keep in mind that the 5 million number I've heard for Apple II sales is
the total of Apple II, II+, IIe, and IIc computers. The IIc+ may even
be included in that number. That is 4 or 5 different "models". You
would have to classify a clone as one of those models and come up with
totals for each of them separately. I don't think the total for any
other these models will come close to the Commodore 64's numbers.
The Commodore 64 is said to have sold 17 million but that is only one
model. It may include the 64C but that wasn't a different model, it was
just manufactured differently if I remember correctly. They aren't
including the Vic 20, 16, Plus 4 or any other model in that total.
larwe
<jeff.blake...@a2central.com.remove-rkc-this> wrote:
> The Commodore 64 is said to have sold 17 million but that is only one
> model. It may include the 64C but that wasn't a different model, it was
> just manufactured differently if I remember correctly. They aren't
There were a few internal differences between the C64 versions (and
let's not forget the SX64 and DX64 and the MAX C64-in-a-games-console
machine), but no *huge* differences if you just stick to the breadbox
+C64C models.
- PAL vs NTSC vs SECAM video
- Various housing flavors
- 6581 vs 8580 SID (and accompanying changes in the other parts - but
the SID difference is a real functional one)
- Lots of discrete logic vs. a big ASIC in the C64C
- Some models didn't supply 9VAC to the user port (Aldi C64)
Michael J. Mahon
> To: datajerk
> datajerk wrote:
>
>> So, was the C64 the best-selling computer "model" of all time? Can
>> the ~200 different Apple II clones significantly increase the the
>> overall volume of the A2 family. I speculate no. Simply because my
>> clone was still 3x the cost of the C64. But I'd still like to know.
>
>
> Keep in mind that the 5 million number I've heard for Apple II sales is
> the total of Apple II, II+, IIe, and IIc computers. The IIc+ may even
> be included in that number. That is 4 or 5 different "models". You
> would have to classify a clone as one of those models and come up with
> totals for each of them separately. I don't think the total for any
> other these models will come close to the Commodore 64's numbers.
I agree that it is unlikely that any platform exceeded the C=64 until
the IBM PC.
Although one way of counting is specific to manufacturer and model--and
a manufacturer would clearly do so.
A much more relevant way of counting is based on the computer's
architecture as presented to software. This is what determines the
size of the software market, and therefore the total size of the
software base for a platform.
This is particularly relevant to the astronomical numbers of PC clones
sold since 1981, creating the largest compatible hardware base in
history. Specific manufacturer or model is in this case irrelevant,
but architectural compatibility is critical.
Since sofware has long since ceased to include its own OS, but is
instead written to the APIs of a particular OS, the so-called "Wintel"
architecture has clearly become the largest single software platform,
for good or ill.
If smartphones ever converge on one (or at most two) architectures, then
they may supplant the Wintel platform as the most numerous, hosting the
greatest number of apps.
-michael
NadaNet and AppleCrate II: parallel computing for Apple II computers!
Home page: http://home.comcast.net/~mjmahon
"The wastebasket is our most important design
tool--and it's seriously underused."
larwe
> If smartphones ever converge on one (or at most two) architectures, then
> they may supplant the Wintel platform as the most numerous, hosting the
> greatest number of apps.
If we're using this sort of metric then Symbian has already won - at
the end of 2008, 40 million Symbian OS phones had been shipped into
Japan _ALONE_. But that's not the metric being discussed - we are
talking about total number of computers of a specific make and model,
not speculating about the number of members of a "platform" shipped.
Many of the PC-compatible machines shipped since 1981, which you lump
into the same category for more convenience in hyperbole, weren't even
compatible with _each other_ let alone an arbitrary third-party
standard. By and large, every C64 shipped will run every piece of C64
software shipped [for the same target TV system anyway].
larwe
> If smartphones ever converge on one (or at most two) architectures, then
> they may supplant the Wintel platform as the most numerous, hosting the
> greatest number of apps.
If we're using this sort of metric then Symbian has already won - at
Charles Richmond
> Google has failed me, or I have failed Google. In either case I
> cannot seem to find any statistics on the number of Apple II clones
> sold in the US or worldwide. I had a clone, as did most of my
> friends. It was economics.
>
> I ask this because according to Wikipedia, "During the Commodore 64's
> lifetime, sales totalled 17 million units, making it the best-selling
> single personal computer model of all time." (Yes totaled was spelled
> wrong in the article--fixed now :-). And according to Wikipedia Apple
> II sales sans the IIgs were less than 5 million. But the number of
> clones are not taken into consideration. AFAIK the C64 was not cloned
> (correct me here).
>
According to the Merriam-Webster online dictionary, totalled can
be spelled with one "l" or two... either way is right. It is the
same with cancelled (canceled) and travelled (traveled).
--
+----------------------------------------+
| Charles and Francis Richmond |
| |
| plano dot net at aquaporin4 dot com |
+----------------------------------------+
sfahey
Re: Re: Apple II Clones. How many sold?
By: Jeff Blakeney to datajerk on Sun Dec 27 2009 02:46 pm
There seems to be more working Apple II gear on eBay than Commodore gear.
Anecdotal evidence may indicate that Commodore's race to undercut their
competitors may have resulted in a machine that doesn't hold up as well. Or
maybe because it was cheaper, it was more expendable to some -- and more
likely to go in the dumpster.
<shrug>
Sean Fahey
www.a2central.com
bbs.a2central.com
Polymorph
In fact "totalled" is the English way of spelling it, and seeing as this
Wikipedia entry was written in English, some would say that "totalled"
is the more "correct" way of spelling it... ;-)
Cheers,
Mike
Mike Spurgeon
> In fact "totalled" is the English way of spelling it, and seeing as this
> Wikipedia entry was written in English, some would say that "totalled"
> is the more "correct" way of spelling it... ;-)
Except the English aren't the only ones speaking english...
winston19842005
"sfahey" <sfa...@a2central.com.remove-erw-this> wrote:
Commodore power supplies are good at taking out the C64. Your power brick
suddenly takes out your C64, then you plug it into a good C64, power it up,
and now you have 2 dead C64s.
Bad quality control, and I can see no evidence that Commodore did anything
to fix it.
Michael Black
> On Dec 27, 12:24 pm, datajerk <dataj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I ask this because according to Wikipedia, "During the Commodore 64's
>> lifetime, sales totalled 17 million units, making it the best-selling
>> single personal computer model of all time." (Yes totaled was spelled
>>
>> So, was the C64 the best-selling computer "model" of all time? Can
>> the ~200 different Apple II clones significantly increase the the
>> overall volume of the A2 family. I speculate no. Simply because my
>
> Regardless, the C64 still wins - because those clones are not all the
> same "model" of computer. Not even the same make!
>
But they were the same computer. If they hadn't been direct copies,
they wouldn't have had any value, because then the software and
the peripherals wouldn't have run on them.
There were "legit" clones like the Franklin.
There were the no-name boards you could buy, as blanks or preassembled.
There were the generic preassembled computers.
It started out as a trickle, I seem to recall originally it was legit
since the original source were surplus Apple II boards, that somehow
got into surplus, and people added what was needed.
Then someone started copying the boards, pretty much directly. That
caused the rise of loads of stores that sold the blank boards, the parts
that would populate them, and then later assembled units.
There were a handful of small computer stores here, and then the number
spiked as the Apple clone business came along. Lots of businesses got
their start in the Apple clone business, then moving on to the IBM clone
business (along the same lines, ie generic boards to assemble or to be
bought preassembled) or into general computer stores. I remember going
to Toronto in 1983 or so, and there were endless little stores all selling
Apple clone boards and peripherals. They were all able to sustain
themselves for a few years (until the Apple II lost popularity to the IBM
PC) selling Apple clones and peripherals and boards, they were a lot more
common than stores selling real Apple IIs.
And it all set the stage for the clones of the IBM PC.
Michael
Michael Black
> To: Jeff Blakeney
> Re: Re: Apple II Clones. How many sold?
> By: Jeff Blakeney to datajerk on Sun Dec 27 2009 02:46 pm
>
> > datajerk wrote:
> > > So, was the C64 the best-selling computer "model" of all time? Can
> > > the ~200 different Apple II clones significantly increase the the
> > > overall volume of the A2 family. I speculate no. Simply because my
> > > clone was still 3x the cost of the C64. But I'd still like to know.
> >
> > Keep in mind that the 5 million number I've heard for Apple II sales is
> > the total of Apple II, II+, IIe, and IIc computers. The IIc+ may even
> > be included in that number. That is 4 or 5 different "models". You
> > would have to classify a clone as one of those models and come up with
> > totals for each of them separately. I don't think the total for any
> > other these models will come close to the Commodore 64's numbers.
> >
> > The Commodore 64 is said to have sold 17 million but that is only one
> > model. It may include the 64C but that wasn't a different model, it was
> > just manufactured differently if I remember correctly. They aren't
> > including the Vic 20, 16, Plus 4 or any other model in that total.
>
> There seems to be more working Apple II gear on eBay than Commodore gear.
>
I was going to say that. They've all pretty much disappeared from garage
and rummages sales at this point, but ten to fifteen years ago, I saw a
lot more Apple II computers, real and cloned, than I did Commodore 64s
(and Radio Shack Color Computers for that matter).
That does seem indicative of an edge, but it's variable since it may
reflect what sold locally or at least here in Canada, and it may reflect
some other variable such as people keeping their other computers (or
something).
It was far more likely in that time period to see Apple IIs being sold
with peripherals (specifically floppy drives) than it was to see C64s
and CoCos being sold with peripherals.
Michael
Michael Black
The same thing happened with the Atari ST I bought at a clearance in early
1989. I paid about $300 for it, then had it sit around until I felt like
spending money on a floppy drive to use the thing. I used it a bit, it
went bad. The power supply had applied too much voltage, and damaged
the ST. I was really lucky, it turned out to have only damaged one RAM,
and that RAM was easy to find because it was hot.
But that was the worst computer I ever bought. There was flakiness
somewhere, and every time I thought I'd found the problem, I'd mangle a
floppy drive when disk operation went bad.
Michael
Michael J. Mahon
If Symbian were a platform open to application developers, then I'd
accept the comparison--but it isn't. The applications are very tightly
controlled, and do not constitute an open market in any sense--which is
why there is no flood of Symbian apps.
The volume significance of any product is proportional to the downstream
market that it leverages. In the beginning, even many "PC clone"
manufacturers did not understand the necessity of complete architectural
compatibility, and those "clones" were relatively low volume and short
lived. The later wave of true clones, pioneered by Compaq, ushered in
the age of the "IBM PC", which flourishes long after IBM exited the
field.
Modern PCs will boot old DOS apps when provided with compatible
peripherals!
Low-priced, even home-built, machines with excellent performance and
reliability, ready to run OS and software, created the vibrant market
we all enjoy today (even if we don't use PCs!), and it is very much in
the spirit of the Apple II open system and its unauthorized clones.
jonny
> Google has failed me, or I have failed Google. In either case I
> cannot seem to find any statistics on the number of Apple II clones
> sold in the US or worldwide. I had a clone, as did most of my
> friends. It was economics.
>
> I ask this because according to Wikipedia, "During the Commodore 64's
> lifetime, sales totalled 17 million units, making it the best-selling
> single personal computer model of all time." (Yes totaled was spelled
> wrong in the article--fixed now :-). And according to Wikipedia Apple
> II sales sans the IIgs were less than 5 million. But the number of
> clones are not taken into consideration. AFAIK the C64 was not cloned
> (correct me here).
>
> So, was the C64 the best-selling computer "model" of all time? Can
> the ~200 different Apple II clones significantly increase the the
> overall volume of the A2 family. I speculate no. Simply because my
> clone was still 3x the cost of the C64. But I'd still like to know.
The C64 total worldwide sales were in fact about 30 million, the 17
million was the number sold in the US and Canada.
The Amiga sold about 6 million units worldwide between 1985-1995, and
that is considered a failure!
jonny
The C64 is still my favourite 8-bit computer.
Saint Isadore Patron Saint of the Internet
>
> - Show quoted text -
My psychic inner mind says for freware world wide there were a total
62 +/- 20 made and sold yhru 22 seperate companys that sold A2 clones
made under varision names from 1971 thry 1993....
Yoe .....to msny periods agao
Saint Isadore Patron Saint of the Internet
Yu should seem tyhe astounding music and blueberriies, mango
chunks and slices - thae it from a seasone rsignerbx stamp embosed
by the y
jonny
> Except the English aren't the only ones speaking english...
But then not everyone who speaks English is American....
Mike Spurgeon
And not every American speaks English.
Bill Garber
"Mike Spurgeon" <mi...@spurgeon.net> wrote in message news:4B3B8BA0...@spurgeon.net...
That is true. They speak American, whatever that is. LOL
Bill Garber
Toinet
> "Mike Spurgeon" <m...@spurgeon.net> wrote in messagenews:4B3B8BA0...@spurgeon.net...
> > jonny wrote:
> >> On 28/12/2009 1:19am, Mike Spurgeon wrote:
>
> >>> Except the English aren't the only ones speaking english...
>
> >> But then not everyone who speaks English is American....
>
> > And not every American speaks English.
>
> That is true. They speak American, whatever that is. LOL
>
> Bill Garber
What about Aussies? Do they speak 'pure' English?
What about the French?
What about the space character before the question mark? ? ?? ??
What about the US and GB 's' vs 'z' difference in some words?
What about "ont totalisé" instead of "totallled" with three L because
it is a Longer word.
Quite oFFF-topic :-)
antoine
Polymorph
Well, being an Aussie myself I can answer your first question - do
Aussies speak 'pure' English? - yes and no. Generally we are taught
and encouraged to use 'pure' English spelling, however, it is becoming
more acceptable to use 'Americanisms' in our day-to-day lives. The
reasons for this aren't crystal clear: it could be increased exposure
to American media, an increase in business relations/partnerships with
American organisations, or pure laziness due to the fact that most
spell checkers enforce American spelling on us no matter how we setup
our regional settings. ;-)
Cheers,
Mike