Going beyond 16 colors...
flag
Messages 1 - 10 of 23 - Collapse all
/groups/adfetch?adid=so3CSBAAAAADKl_j3sOIQGu6EieS0YFR
The group you are posting to is a Usenet group. Messages posted to this group will make your email address visible to anyone on the Internet.
Your reply message has not been sent.
Your post was successful
 
From:
To:
Cc:
Followup To:
Add Cc | Add Followup-to | Edit Subject
Subject:
Validation:
For verification purposes please type the characters you see in the picture below or the numbers you hear by clicking the accessibility icon. Listen and type the numbers you hear
 
1.  BLuRry  
View profile  
 More options Jun 23 2006, 3:20 am
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2.programmer
From: "BLuRry" <brendan.rob...@gmail.com>
Date: 23 Jun 2006 00:20:58 -0700
Local: Fri, Jun 23 2006 3:20 am
Subject: Going beyond 16 colors...
Previously, I experimented with flickering between all combinations of
16x16 colors to produce roughly 144-ish colors.  However, most of these
colors were rather jarring to look at because of the high amount of
objectionable flicker.  Now that applewin has a convienent "Bload"
facility (which helps with rapid prototyping of code) and I have a //c
that I can send arbitrary code to quickly (using apple game server), I
have been able to work on this more now.  (though if anyone can help me
find a better way to do VBL detection on a //c, I am all ears)

I marked off the colors that are completely unviewable and stripped it
down to 68 colors that either appear solid (there are a handful of
those actually) or only have a slight amount of flicker.  I have a gif
of the simulated palette made with photoshop, as well as a photoshop
rgb color index file.  I also have made a spreadsheet documenting which
index colors go where in the simulated color grid, which means that it
should eventually be possible to convert images using this palette in
photoshop and then (most likely) passing the converted image in to a
java program to process as a series of two double-hires images that are
alternated to produce a pseudo 68-color image.

I have also updated the apple program to black out the unviewable
"colors" and have checked it using a //c on a regular TV.  There is a
little noticable flicker, but it is a lot easier to look at than when I
started.   Maybe it's because I've stayed up way too late working on it
and my eyes are playing tricks on me.  But that was also the same kooky
frame of mind I was in when I loaded up moon patrol the first time from
a serial cable, so who knows what will come of this crazy
experimentation?  More to follow soon (after I do this whole sleeping
ritual and such).

-B


    Reply to author    Forward  
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
2.  heuser.mar...@freenet.de  
View profile  
 More options Jun 23 2006, 12:13 pm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2.programmer
From: heuser.mar...@freenet.de
Date: 23 Jun 2006 09:13:18 -0700
Local: Fri, Jun 23 2006 12:13 pm
Subject: Re: Going beyond 16 colors...

BLuRry wrote:

> I have also updated the apple program to black out the unviewable
> "colors" and have checked it using a //c on a regular TV.  There is a
> little noticable flicker, but it is a lot easier to look at than when I
> started.

If you have a standard NTSC TV set you'll get 30 hz for the "combined
picture". This flickers quite noticeably and will give you eye strain
in the long run, IMHO.

With PAL its only 25 hz - and believe me: It flickers like hell,
especially with bright colors.

Because of this I never used similar trickery with the 8 bit Ataris to
display 256 "real" colors or the interlaced modes of the Amiga with
twice the vertical resolution.

However, you may get much better results with a TV set that is capable
of displaying a NTSC or PAL picture at twice the normal frequency (120
/ 100 hz) or a modern LCD or plasma TV set.

bye
Marcus


    Reply to author    Forward  
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
3.  BLuRry  
View profile  
 More options Jun 23 2006, 1:23 pm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2.programmer
From: "BLuRry" <brendan.rob...@gmail.com>
Date: 23 Jun 2006 10:23:57 -0700
Local: Fri, Jun 23 2006 1:23 pm
Subject: Re: Going beyond 16 colors...

> With PAL its only 25 hz - and believe me: It flickers like hell,
> especially with bright colors.

Exactly, in fact almost any color alternated with white flickers
horribly -- even the lighter colors.  However, there are a few colors
where the flicker is not as bad or noticable and a small handful that
don't *appear* to flicker AT ALL -- at least not on the zenith NTSC
television I was plugged in this week's hotel room.  If you alternate
between red/magenta (1) and dark blue (2) you get a nice solid dark
purple that doesn't kill your eyes.  Try it. :-)

-B


    Reply to author    Forward  
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
4.  Michael J. Mahon  
View profile  
 More options Jun 24 2006, 1:21 am
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2.programmer
From: "Michael J. Mahon" <mjma...@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2006 22:21:15 -0700
Local: Sat, Jun 24 2006 1:21 am
Subject: Re: Going beyond 16 colors...

BLuRry wrote:
>>With PAL its only 25 hz - and believe me: It flickers like hell,
>>especially with bright colors.

> Exactly, in fact almost any color alternated with white flickers
> horribly -- even the lighter colors.  However, there are a few colors
> where the flicker is not as bad or noticable and a small handful that
> don't *appear* to flicker AT ALL -- at least not on the zenith NTSC
> television I was plugged in this week's hotel room.  If you alternate
> between red/magenta (1) and dark blue (2) you get a nice solid dark
> purple that doesn't kill your eyes.  Try it. :-)

The eye is a remarkable system, and exhibits widely varying sensitivity
to flicker based on absolute brightness, relative brightness, and color,
as well as, of course, frequency.  The angular area of the flicker has
a big effect, too, with flickering details being much less obvious than
large areas (though small-area flicker remains quite visible).

Several scientific instruments and measurement techniques are based on
alternating between two different images at a "flicker" rate, so that
the eye will be drawn to differences.  For example, planets, asteroids,
and comets used to be found this way--and many still are, after computer
culling.

-michael

Parallel computing for 8-bit Apple II's!
Home page:  http://members.aol.com/MJMahon/

"The wastebasket is our most important design
tool--and it is seriously underused."


    Reply to author    Forward  
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
5.  TJFM  
View profile  
 More options Jul 4 2006, 1:07 pm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2.programmer
From: TJFM <nintendolog...@nospam.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 17:07:43 GMT
Local: Tues, Jul 4 2006 1:07 pm
Subject: Re: Going beyond 16 colors...

On Fri, 23 Jun 2006 09:13:18 -0700, heuser.marcus wrote:
> Because of this I never used similar trickery with the 8 bit Ataris to
> display 256 "real" colors or the interlaced modes of the Amiga with
> twice the vertical resolution.

Agreed. doing that can get painful very fast.
However, I was wondering about the use of a similar technique. I believe
it works by essentially halving the horizontal resolution to increase
colour depth.
I think it works by utilising two columns to create colour instead of one.
It looks pretty ordinary up close, but stand back a little and it becomes
quite effective. Combine that effect with this page flipping technique,
and far more perceived colours may be possible.
Only problem is, I'm not at all sure it would work given the colour
creation constraints of the platform.

It's something to think about, anyway.

--
/* Who is this General Failure and why is he reading my C: drive? */
/* http://blog.myspace.com/13604531 */


    Reply to author    Forward  
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
6.  BLuRry  
View profile  
 More options Jul 4 2006, 4:02 pm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2.programmer
From: "BLuRry" <brendan.rob...@gmail.com>
Date: 4 Jul 2006 13:02:40 -0700
Local: Tues, Jul 4 2006 4:02 pm
Subject: Re: Going beyond 16 colors...

> However, I was wondering about the use of a similar technique. I believe
> it works by essentially halving the horizontal resolution to increase
> colour depth.

This is what most popular drawing programs did, basically checkerboard
patterns between two different colors.  Trouble is that with the color
bleed you don't really see the colors correctly when certain
combinations are next to each other...

-B


    Reply to author    Forward  
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
7.  heuser.mar...@freenet.de  
View profile  
 More options Jul 4 2006, 4:06 pm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2.programmer
From: heuser.mar...@freenet.de
Date: 4 Jul 2006 13:06:26 -0700
Local: Tues, Jul 4 2006 4:06 pm
Subject: Re: Going beyond 16 colors...

BLuRry wrote:
> > However, I was wondering about the use of a similar technique. I believe
> > it works by essentially halving the horizontal resolution to increase
> > colour depth.

> This is what most popular drawing programs did, basically checkerboard
> patterns between two different colors.

Ha ha, beat me to it!  ;o)

> Trouble is that with the color bleed you don't really see the colors
> correctly when certain combinations are next to each other...

Which was  mostly intentional, I'm sure.

And which is why I prefer the II(e/c) platform for non-GS-software over
the GS or an emulator. Though I hope that the latter will someday
incorporate a more realistic composite simulation.

bye
Marcus


    Reply to author    Forward  
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
8.  BLuRry  
View profile  
 More options Jul 5 2006, 3:09 pm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2.programmer
From: "BLuRry" <brendan.rob...@gmail.com>
Date: 5 Jul 2006 12:09:24 -0700
Local: Wed, Jul 5 2006 3:09 pm
Subject: Re: Going beyond 16 colors...

> > This is what most popular drawing programs did, basically checkerboard
> > patterns between two different colors.

> Ha ha, beat me to it!  ;o)

GMTA.  ;-)

> > Trouble is that with the color bleed you don't really see the colors
> > correctly when certain combinations are next to each other...

> Which was  mostly intentional, I'm sure.

Yeah, but it makes the image look rather gritty.  Sure, the scott adams
graphic adventures used the penguin (whoops polarware) drawing routines
to push out some amazing looking stuff.  But it was difficult to view
on a green screen.  And you lose resolution on top of that unless
you're filling large areas with one "color".  You can't do gradients or
other rapid color transitions very easily.

Some colors when alternated actually produce a black-and-white
checkerboard pattern.  So the dithering technique has a very limited
amount of appeal.  However, you can "sort of" get a good color
dithering conversion using photoshop to scale down the palette of an
image to the apple's 16-color palette and play with the diffusion
controls until you're happy with it.

If I can understand how programmatic dithering works I might be able to
develop an algorithm that can account for the color bleed of an apple
composite signal and take that into account when converting an image
(if there's any real interest in it.)  I understand the theory of why
these things happen (most notably because the 7mhz instead of 7.5mhz
timing or somthing like that causes pixels to overlap each other with
an apple, hence why nintendos and commiedores don't do this on a TV)
and I am very accustomed to seeing the color fringe.  But I don't know
how to calculate it very well.


    Reply to author    Forward  
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
9.  Michael J. Mahon  
View profile  
 More options Jul 5 2006, 9:28 pm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2.programmer
From: "Michael J. Mahon" <mjma...@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 18:28:49 -0700
Local: Wed, Jul 5 2006 9:28 pm
Subject: Re: Going beyond 16 colors...

No, that's not why.  ;-)  There are no "overlapping pixels" on an Apple.

Unlike the other systems you mention (which generate a true chroma
subcarrier), *all* color on the Apple is NTSC artifact color.  There
*is* no other native color.  And virtually all Apple graphics were
designed to be viewed as NTSC color images, so the "color bleed" you
talk about was an *intended effect* in most of those images.

(BTW, the reason everyone designed for NTSC color is that other ways
of viewing Apple color images were a small fraction of the market.
For many years, the most common way of using an Apple II was connecting
it to a TV set.)

There are two difficulties with Apple color that must be designed around
by a graphic artist:  1) the limited number of pure colors, and 2) the
inablilty to mix green or purple with orange or blue in the same 7-pixel
byte on the screen.  Any apparent color that can be produced by any
pattern of pixels is fair game--sometimes this is described as dithered
color.  Dithering can be horizontal and/or vertical (adjacent lines),
and it is *always* used for its color effect, and is *never* meant to
look good on a monochrome display (though sometimes the textures are
interesting).

The problem with using a "reduced palette" technique to synthesize
Apple graphics is that none of the tools for doing so takes into
account the actual NTSC artifacts that result in a color image for
Apple graphics.  It would be possible to do so--and might be a very
interesting project--but it has not yet been done.  Certainly the
current crop of emulators do a very poor job of rendering what would
be seen on an NTSC monitor, which is what the graphic artist intended.

-michael

Parallel computing for 8-bit Apple II's!
Home page:  http://members.aol.com/MJMahon/

"The wastebasket is our most important design
tool--and it is seriously underused."


    Reply to author    Forward  
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.
10.  Joshua Bell  
View profile  
 More options Jul 5 2006, 10:41 pm
Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2.programmer
From: "Joshua Bell" <inexorablet...@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 02:41:21 GMT
Local: Wed, Jul 5 2006 10:41 pm
Subject: Re: Going beyond 16 colors...

Michael J. Mahon wrote:

> Unlike the other systems you mention (which generate a true chroma
> subcarrier), *all* color on the Apple is NTSC artifact color.  There
> *is* no other native color.  And virtually all Apple graphics were
> designed to be viewed as NTSC color images, so the "color bleed" you
> talk about was an *intended effect* in most of those images.

I very recently picked up the book Applied Concepts in Microcomputer
Graphics by Bruce Artwick (Sublogic, Flight Simulator) off of an Amazon
second hand seller for a whopping USD$5.44 including shipping. Awesome book.
Until I read it I had only self-invented hypothesis for how Apple color
artifacting worked, and zero knowledge of NTSC. Although I've done a lot of
graphics programming, I was always abstracted away from the display hardware
sufficiently to ignore it.

FWIW, my "folk hypothesis" growing up was to consider the horizontal signal
to be divided into [R][G][B] sub-pixels, and Apple screen bits to be
approximately a half-pixel wide, e.g. [0][0] is the same width as [R][G][B].
The bit-7 shift would offset things so the same two bits [0][0] would
overlap the neighboring [G][B][R] subpixels instead. A pattern of [1][1]
would light up RGB (==white). A pattern of [0][1] would light up mostly
[B]=blue and [1][0] would light up [R][G]=orange, or with the bit-7 shift
[0][1] would light up [B][R] = violet and [1][0] would light up mostly [G] =
greeen.

Now I *know* that NTSC does not address individual pixels, but my
"folk-hypothesis" was remarkably effective so it burnt into my brain.

Looking at page 96, I see that it's strangely almost correct - there are 180
cycles across the screen of a color signal which goes through the spectrum
MROYGCBV, and if the monochrome signal is "on" in a particular field of that
you get those colors; Apple's pixels do address half of one of these cycles
each.  So [0][1] lights up GCB=green, [1][0] lights up MRO = purple. Shift a
little bit over and you get. [0][1] lighting up CBV=blue and [1][0] lighting
up ROY=orange.

This also explains the "fringing" rather nicely. The pattern
[0][0][1][1][0][0] which in (Apple Hi-Res)theory is perfect
black-white-black will inevitably have the "white" signal "leaking" to
either magenta or yellow on the edges depending on where it is within the
cycle.

Really, at the price, if you're doing Apple graphics programming you gotta
get this book.

Joshua


    Reply to author    Forward  
You must Sign in before you can post messages.
To post a message you must first join this group.
Please update your nickname on the subscription settings page before posting.
You do not have the permission required to post.

Create a group - Google Groups - Google Home - Terms of Service - Privacy Policy
©2009 Google