Psygnosis Missing The Boat?
marty hoffmann
I just read in the latest issue of .Info that Psygnosis is releasing
their hard disk installable version of Lemmings. Unfortunately it
is key disk protected, so you need to insert the first floppy disk,
each time you run it. According to the magazine, Psygnosis claims
that they didn't want to use key disk protection, but it was the
fastest way to get this version released (oh, brother).
IMHO Psygnosis has missed the boat. I would have gladly purchased
the upgrade, even if it resorted to manual look-up or code-wheel
protection. I would have bought it, even though I have already
finished Lemmings. But I won't buy it now.
Anyone who is ready to accuse me of being a pirate -- don't bother.
You don't know what you are talking about.
Anyone who is ready to praise Psygnosis for taking this step --
give me a break.
If I were paranoid, I would say Psygnosis did this key disk protection
thing on purpose, so no one will buy the hard disk installable Lemmings
and they can claim that hard disk installability (if that's a word)
is not something that people really want. That's if I were paranoid.
As it is, I will conclude that old habits die hard and Psygnosis just
couldn't take the step away from on-disk copy protection. Nice try
Psygnosis -- too bad.
MRH
--
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
| Martin R Hoffmann | Opinions expressed above are |
| (hoff...@acl.kodak.com) | not Kodak's (blah blah blah) |
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Laurana Bailey
>If I were paranoid, I would say Psygnosis did this key disk protection
>thing on purpose, so no one will buy the hard disk installable Lemmings
>and they can claim that hard disk installability (if that's a word)
>is not something that people really want. That's if I were paranoid.
You might have missed it, but a few months back there was a big thread
on this newsgroup blasting Psygnosis for their lack of HD support. A
good friend of mine was part of that thread and the end result was
that several people frm Psygnosis saw it, replied, and agreed to
produce a Hard Drive installable version of Lemmings. It was a major
victory among the masses.
The key disk protection issue doesn't bother me. The version of
Lemmings for the PC is HD installable and also requires Key Disk
protection. I don't mind Key Disk protection as long as I can install
it on my HD although I prefer Manual Word lookup if any protection is
going to be used.
It took Psygnosis a while to figure out that there were people in the
world with more than 512K RAM and one internal floppy let alone hard
drives so this is a good first step. Kudos to Psygnosis for at least
trying to please all the people even though some refuse to compromise.
Kudos also to Electronic Arts who's latest ports show a better attempt
at decent coding and also support the HD.
--
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
|Just another lemming... | Yet another Amiga maniac set loose |
| | on the world...and you thought things|
|lmba...@vela.acs.oakland.edu | couldn't get any worse. |
Kent Paul Dolan
> hoff...@acl.kodak.com (marty hoffmann) writes:
>> If I were paranoid, I would say Psygnosis did
>> this key disk protection thing on purpose, so no
>> one will buy the hard disk installable Lemmings
>> and they can claim that hard disk installability
>> (if that's a word) is not something that people
>> really want. That's if I were paranoid.
That's exactly the effect it has on my plans to buy
lemmings -- shoots them dead. Psygnosis _still_
hasn't figured out what people _hate_ about their
games.
> You might have missed it, but a few months back
> there was a big thread on this newsgroup blasting
> Psygnosis for their lack of HD support. A good
> friend of mine was part of that thread and the end
> result was that several people frm Psygnosis saw
> it, replied, and agreed to produce a Hard Drive
> installable version of Lemmings. It was a major
> victory among the masses.
I was one of the people screaming loudest for a
change, and even promised to buy the new version
if it met my objections. As far as I'm concerned,
they wasted their time; they'll get no money from
me. What seemed a victory turns out to taste of
ashes.
> The key disk protection issue doesn't bother me.
> The version of Lemmings for the PC is HD
> installable and also requires Key Disk protection.
> I don't mind Key Disk protection as long as I can
> install it on my HD although I prefer Manual Word
> lookup if any protection is going to be used.
Let's _once_ _again_ take a look at the problems (aside
from playability, not a problem with Lemmings, from all
reports) with Psygnosis games, and see how they did:
1) Beats floppy disk drive to death No change.
with copy protection checks.
2) Requires fumbling around to find No change.
floppy disk among dozens to 1000's,
instead of just clicking up the
game from the HD.
3) Slow to come up from death of one Probably improved.
set of characters to playing again.
4) Survival of game limited to failure Worse; now beats one
prone floppy disk media failure rate. track to death instead
of whole disk.
5) Risk that game will be dead on No change.
arrival because copy protection
requires tight floppy drive
tolerences.
After receiving The Killing Game Show DOA, with
reports here from several others that the copy
protection was requiring more than my _working_
floppy drives could deliver, and the game had
arrived DOA for them, too, and watching several
other copy protected games suffer media failure
before I could finish playing them, I set a rule, no
more games with disk oriented copy protection, no
more games I can't run strictly from my hard drive,
no more games I can't back up and run from that
backup. (Yes, I have backup copies of every game on
my HD; HDs don't last forever, either).
Key disk schemes do not satisfy these simple,
understandable customer needs, and so I will
continue to boycott and suggest that others boycott
Psygnosis games.
I don't have any intention of pirating games I buy,
but I do have intentions of playing them, and copy
protection schemes that make the games either
immediately unplayable or soon unplayable will get
no more of my limited game buying budget; too many
other companies have found code wheels and manual
lookup schemes suffice, and those meet all but my
second concern above, a tremendous improvement; I
still have to unbury the code wheel or manual, but
that's mostly my own fault.
Kent, the man from xanth.
<xant...@Zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> <xant...@well.sf.ca.us>
Tim Clinkenpeel
in the pirate world.
a little bird told me. a little parrot, that is.
--
/=============================/ "1:1 And, yea, Jesus was not quite dead and did
/ tpeh...@javelin.sim.es.com / commeth down with a wailing and a gnashing of
/=====aka: tim clinkenpeel====/ teeth" _The_Bible_][:_Jesus_Strikes_Back_
/ [DISCLAIMER: i take prozac] / WARNING: my messages are offensive to morons
Jim Logan
(Kent Paul Dolan) writes:
# > You might have missed it, but a few months back
# > there was a big thread on this newsgroup blasting
# > Psygnosis for their lack of HD support. A good
# > friend of mine was part of that thread and the end
# > result was that several people frm Psygnosis saw
# > it, replied, and agreed to produce a Hard Drive
# > installable version of Lemmings. It was a major
# > victory among the masses.
#
# I was one of the people screaming loudest for a
# change, and even promised to buy the new version
# if it met my objections. As far as I'm concerned,
# they wasted their time; they'll get no money from
# me. What seemed a victory turns out to taste of
# ashes.
I agree completely. I made this decision before I even saw this
thread. I have wasted roughly $200 on game software from
Psygnosis, Acclaim, Virgin MasterTronics, and Electronic Arts.
All have very good games. The only problem is that I bought a
high-end A3000uxd with 9MB RAM and 340MB HD and I have to run
them off of these slow floppies! They don't even load the floppy
into RAM for faster play!
ATTENTION ALL GAME MANUFACTURERS!!!
I REFUSE TO BUY ANY GAME THAT WILL NOT RUN FROM MY HARD DISK!
I don't mind codewheels or looking things up in a book (although
I must complain about the map-matching in PowerMonger. It is too
difficult! Well, the game's not that great anyway...) Another
non-refundable $49 down the tubes.
# Key disk schemes do not satisfy these simple,
# understandable customer needs, and so I will
# continue to boycott and suggest that others boycott
# Psygnosis games.
I am boycotting ALL games that do not meet my standards.
--
Jim Logan Home: logan%gim...@uunet.uu.net
Consultant Work: lo...@netx.com
Net Express, Inc. Phone: (703) 749-2269
Malcolm Diallo Moore
hold on our disk drives. They're afraid of piracy, so much so that they
will lose their honest customers through their crappy copy protection.
Awesome (which I returned many many moons ago) refuses to work on my computer
because of the copy protection. And everyone knows how bad the drives gronk
when loading up the Killing Game Show. And this minor "victory" they call
themselves achieving is only put out by this "key disk" thing.
Now I ain't a pirate, but I know a few, and they are just like regular car
thieves. If they want it, they will have it unless you shoot them. Psygnosis
will come up with a new way to strain our drives to death, and some pirate will
come along and pull some strings and bam-there goes another copy protection
scheme.
I say Psygnosis needs to quit fuckin around and get with the program, and start
worrying about their HONEST customers, which far outnumber their dishonest
ones. Before they go broke over this shit, like.
Just my $67 minus $66.98 rebate with no tax.
Malcolm "The Capital MD" Moore
----------Amiga: The One and Only. All the Rest Can Get the Bozack.-----------
"I ain't never got gaffled like that, I used to do the gaffilin'--
McDonald's was my spot."
"Man, what you used to do??"
"Jack them motherfuckers for them Nissan Trucks. Right in the drive thru."
Ronald Kushner
>Let's get to the real reason why Psygnosis continues to keep that strangle
>hold on our disk drives. They're afraid of piracy, so much so that they
>will lose their honest customers through their crappy copy protection.
Hum, if someone coded the protection, someone can break it out...
>Awesome (which I returned many many moons ago) refuses to work on my computer
>because of the copy protection. And everyone knows how bad the drives gronk
>when loading up the Killing Game Show. And this minor "victory" they call
>themselves achieving is only put out by this "key disk" thing.
I bought SimCity 1.1, oh geeze, a year ago or so, it had key disk protection
on it, thing would bring down my BBS every 2 or 3 loads of the game, I guess
because it didn't pass the key disk protection to its liking...My sister
recently purchased a graphics disk for it, and it patched itself with manual
protection. I love that manual protection, if it fails it doesn't bring down a
multi-port system running UUCP and a possiable R/W error on the HD..Why can't
others do this? SimCity really multi-tasks well...Have it running now
actually...and as a rule, I don't play games...My sister does...
I will avoid KeyDisk protection now that I know better...SimCity proved it was
bad, and they fixed their mistake...
>Now I ain't a pirate, but I know a few, and they are just like regular car
>thieves. If they want it, they will have it unless you shoot them. Psygnosis
>will come up with a new way to strain our drives to death, and some pirate wil
>come along and pull some strings and bam-there goes another copy protection
>scheme.
Noone has built a better mousetrap yet on copy protection...If someone does,
they wll be rich...
>I say Psygnosis needs to quit fuckin around and get with the program, and star
>worrying about their HONEST customers, which far outnumber their dishonest
>ones. Before they go broke over this shit, like.
What they need to do is to start direct marketing via BBS's...Then system
operators will have an interest in preventing piracy, because it will be their
bottom line...This would really flip pirates up side down...Software Companies
could make crippled evaluation versions, that people can download to "try
before they buy." It would probably drive down costs to the end user, no store
front to pay for, direct marketing, lower advertising costs, etc...Let
capitalism work for you...If the demo sucks, no one buys the game...I wonder
if anyone is interested in trying this in a test market...
Ron
-- C-UseNet V0.42d
Ronald Kushner Life in Hell BBS +1 (313) 939-6666
P.O. Box 353 14400 USR HST V.42 & V.42bis
Sterling Heights, MI 48311-0353 Complete Amiga Support
UUCP: uunet!umich!vela!sycom!rkushner (We are not satanic, just NUTS!)
DISCLAIMER: I say what I mean, and mean what I say.
Richard McGowen
Usually write intelligent things concerning the amiga world.
However, He has forgotten one very important thing that makes life with so many
people in the world livable, COMPROMISE. Although some of his complaints are
still valid, for psygnosis to go as far as they did is amazing. For one thing,
most key-disk copy protection schemes I have seen on require you to insert the
key-disk once at the very start of the game. This really can not be harder
on "one track of the floppy" than playing the whole game from a floppy.
Secondly, if you ever had played a floppy based version of lemmings you would
know that the disk acess is LONG, especially on systems with less than 1 MEG.
In my opinion, I am much more concerned with floppy vs hard drive access times
than the time it takes to find one floppy amid 12 to 1000 floppies. Finally,
we come back to COMPROMISE. Psygnosis still does not want Joe Average to be
able to give their games (an investment of their money) to the kid next door,
down the street, and the one they met once at school who has the same kind of
computer. On the other hand, most users that own a hard drive would love to
be able to take advantage of the speed their hard drive gives them. If you
are going to play a game for over an hour, what is so bad about spending the
first 1 minute finding the key disk and not having to later sit through 10
minutes of floppy access. Psygnosis came more than halfway, but yet you
still want to condemn them for not going as far as you wanted. This
is the equivalent of you getting a speeding ticket and then yelling at the
officer for giving you one instead of the one he gave you that only had you
going 5 mph over the speed limit rather than the 50 mph per hour over the
speed limit you were actually going. If someone is doing something that you
see as going in the right direction, you should encourage them, not condemn
them for not being all the way there.
--
Richard McGowen
"Men can't deal with commitment. They're afraid they'll get married and then
meet the woman of their dreams at the reception." --Carrie Snow
Richard McGowen
>
>I REFUSE TO BUY ANY GAME THAT WILL NOT RUN FROM MY HARD DISK!
>
>
If I can't win, I take my ball go home. :(
I thought some of us had grown past third grade.
Gun Control is a firm grip
I dont think that person was 3rd gradish at all. Why should amiga software not
take full advantage of all the hardware available while PC versions and Mac
versions are HD mountable, etc. ???
PiRho- Because its Co-Ed . "tsroes rm `nsti ihst""enlgood rakm si amen ym"//
"Brave Sir Robin ran away. Bravely ran away away." //A
Macintoshes should be accelerated at 32ft/sec^2 \\ //mig
Gun Control means using both hands \X/ A
Gun Control is a firm grip
>
>Usually write intelligent things concerning the amiga world.
>
>
>However, He has forgotten one very important thing that makes life with so many
>people in the world livable, COMPROMISE. Although some of his complaints are
Compromise... then the game should be manually protected instead of a key disk
thing which usually doesnt work. There should be no need for compromise. What
Psygnosis does with copy protection is not stopping piracy and almost
encourages people to pirate so that they can make back-up copies for themselves
rather than relying on a $15 fee for a copy from the company.
I wonder if psygnosis's version of lemmings for the IBM will have strong
protection on it, making it unable to be HD mountable... then requiring IBM
users to pay an additional $15 or so for a HD mountable version that relies on
key-disk protection. We rarely see this sort of thing on Macs or on Ms-dos
platforms but see it all the time on the amiga, and you say we should
compromise??? we want essentially equal access to our hardware.
>still valid, for psygnosis to go as far as they did is amazing. For one thing,
This shouldve been available in the 1st place, instead of making people pay
upwards of $50 for a HD mountable game. I paid $40 for lemmings, why should I
have to pay an additional $15 or so just for a version that is HD mountable?
>most key-disk copy protection schemes I have seen on require you to insert the
>key-disk once at the very start of the game. This really can not be harder
>on "one track of the floppy" than playing the whole game from a floppy.
>Secondly, if you ever had played a floppy based version of lemmings you would
>know that the disk acess is LONG, especially on systems with less than 1 MEG.
>In my opinion, I am much more concerned with floppy vs hard drive access times
>than the time it takes to find one floppy amid 12 to 1000 floppies. Finally,
>we come back to COMPROMISE. Psygnosis still does not want Joe Average to be
>able to give their games (an investment of their money) to the kid next door,
>down the street, and the one they met once at school who has the same kind of
>computer. On the other hand, most users that own a hard drive would love to
Manual protection is as efficient as on disk copy protection in preventing
this sort of thing. "joe average" will find a program that will allow you to
make backups of all programs and merely use that to give the other person a
copy.
>be able to take advantage of the speed their hard drive gives them. If you
>are going to play a game for over an hour, what is so bad about spending the
>first 1 minute finding the key disk and not having to later sit through 10
>minutes of floppy access. Psygnosis came more than halfway, but yet you
>still want to condemn them for not going as far as you wanted. This
>is the equivalent of you getting a speeding ticket and then yelling at the
>officer for giving you one instead of the one he gave you that only had you
>going 5 mph over the speed limit rather than the 50 mph per hour over the
>speed limit you were actually going. If someone is doing something that you
>see as going in the right direction, you should encourage them, not condemn
>them for not being all the way there.
I commend them for coming this far but they shouldve been alot further down
the road from day 1. I have to reiterate the MS-Dos problem again because that
fact about Amiga games almost made him decide to get a 386 instead of a 500
system. He was concerned about the fact that most Amiga games dont mount on
HD's and thats largely due to the perception that making them HD mountable
will make it easier to pirate, which I doubt it true. If companies can make the
IBM versions mount on a HD, why cant the amiga port do so?
Why why why why why.....
>--
>Richard McGowen
>
>"Men can't deal with commitment. They're afraid they'll get married and then
>meet the woman of their dreams at the reception." --Carrie Snow
kam hung soh
>Psygnosis still does not want Joe Average to be
>able to give their games (an investment of their money) to the kid next door,
>down the street, and the one they met once at school who has the same kind of
>computer.
Proponents of disk-based protection systems seem to forget pirates have
and can break any protection on disk and honest buyers are penalised
instead. If a person buys a game, why does he have to pay extra so
that he can fully utilise his system? Will the company replace his
game disk for free if he wears it out due to the protection system?
Why does he have to put up with such inconvenience at all in the first
place?
Isn't fairer to reward the honest user instead of punishing him?
-------
Soh, Kam Hung email: h....@trl.oz.au tel: +61 3 541 6403
Telecom Research Laboratories, POB 249 Clayton, Victoria 3168, Australia
Richard McGowen
may prefer manual protection to key disk protection, I would much prefer a
key disk any day. With a key disk, I can have all my floppies in one fairly
small container. Floppies are also a bit more durable, at least in my living
environment, than docs. I could destroy a code wheel or a piece of paper much
easier.
In short, I am tired of people bitching because psygnosis made a step in the
right direction just because it was not exactly what the want. Let's see
all these people who like to complain so much write a game. Then they
can have it any way they da*n well please. Also be interesting to see if
they were against copy protection then.
Sleeping Beagle
> Let's get to the real reason why Psygnosis continues to keep that strangle
> hold on our disk drives. They're afraid of piracy, so much so that they
> will lose their honest customers through their crappy copy protection.
The funny thing is that their anti-piracy protection just pisses off
the real owners - I have seen every Psygnosis game ever written on the
pirate circuit.
A few months ago I bought Indianapolis 500, and there's some annoying
manual protection. Recently I got a pirated copy as well, which didn't
have the protection. Guess who got screwed?
Sleeping Beagle (aka Thomas Farmer) sbe...@kennels.actrix.gen.nz
Ph. +64-4-796306 (voice) "You ain't nothin' but a Hound Dog."
With this much posting, I must be a Post, Post Modern Man.
marty hoffmann
In article <16...@darkstar.ucsc.edu> Richard McGowen writes:
>... Floppies are also a bit more durable, at least in my living
>environment, than docs. I could destroy a code wheel or a piece of paper much
>easier.
That must be some environment :^)
I can honestly say that I have never destroyed a code wheel. I can also
honestly say that I have had a number of copy protected disks fail. I guess
it really does depend on your environment.
>In short, I am tired of people bitching because psygnosis made a step in the
>right direction just because it was not exactly what the want. Let's see
>all these people who like to complain so much write a game. Then they
>can have it any way they da*n well please. Also be interesting to see if
>they were against copy protection then.
If I am buying a computer game, then I am a CONSUMER of that product. Why
do I have to be a PRODUCER of that same product before I obtain the right
to comment on a product someone expects me to consume.
I don't like copy protection, but I accept that fact that there are dishonest
scum bags out there against which producers of software must protect their
investment. In my opinion, manual based copy protection is better, because
it allows me to protect my investment as a consumer, better than on-disk
copy protection.
Obviously you don't agree, because of your environment. But please don't
try to argue that I don't have a right to my opinion or a right to express
my opinion, just because I don't write computer games. That's stupid.
I'd also like to point out that Psygnosis is taking these steps in response
to customer demands. They're not doing this because they like you or me.
They are doing it because they think they can make more money this way.
In a business relationship, the customer is not obliged to thank the buisness
for doing something to satisfy the customer. No, the customer has a right to
demand that the business do certain things in order to keep that customer.
Most of the people who are still bitching have purchased Psygnosis games in
the past, and they have a right to complain.
It can probably be argued that Psygnosis took this step in response to just
the sort of bitching you are complaining about. If Psygnosis is still
listening (reading?), they will see that many are of the opinion that they
need to do more. Whether they choose to take the next step is up to them.
Marty Hoffmann
Gun Control is a firm grip
>mcg...@saturn.ucsc.edu (Richard McGowen) writes:
>>Psygnosis still does not want Joe Average to be
>>able to give their games (an investment of their money) to the kid next door,
>>down the street, and the one they met once at school who has the same kind of
>>computer.
>
>Proponents of disk-based protection systems seem to forget pirates have
>and can break any protection on disk and honest buyers are penalised
>instead. If a person buys a game, why does he have to pay extra so
>that he can fully utilise his system? Will the company replace his
>game disk for free if he wears it out due to the protection system?
Or pay for repairs on the disk drive to the constant grinding????
>Why does he have to put up with such inconvenience at all in the first
>place?
>
>Isn't fairer to reward the honest user instead of punishing him?
>
>-------
>Soh, Kam Hung email: h....@trl.oz.au tel: +61 3 541 6403
>Telecom Research Laboratories, POB 249 Clayton, Victoria 3168, Australia
Gun Control is a firm grip
>may prefer manual protection to key disk protection, I would much prefer a
>key disk any day. With a key disk, I can have all my floppies in one fairly
>small container. Floppies are also a bit more durable, at least in my living
>environment, than docs. I could destroy a code wheel or a piece of paper much
>easier.
>
>In short, I am tired of people bitching because psygnosis made a step in the
>right direction just because it was not exactly what the want. Let's see
>all these people who like to complain so much write a game. Then they
>can have it any way they da*n well please. Also be interesting to see if
>they were against copy protection then.
The reason we are bitching is because Psygnosis was so far off as far as
protection went that anything that could be a "major step" wasnt. Copy
protection is nothing more than some kind of drug for the software companies
because it does nothing to curb piracy whatsoever. My friend bought SOTB and
SOTB 2, spending close to $100 or a little more when he had a 500. When he
moved up to the 3000, it didnt work. period. $100 gone and I have my doubts as
to whether or not they will work under 2.0. If they dont, I can assure you I
would be pissed if I paid the $55 every store wanted for SOTB 2.
No, i have not written a game, but thats no excuse for preventing me from using
all the hardware i have available. If I have a HD the game should be HD
mountable. You dont see this sort of problem on the Mac or IBM platforms, why
should we amiga users have to deal with it?
If Microprose can make F19 stealth mount on an IBM HD, why cant it mount on an
Amiga Hard Drive? Alot is due to copy protection.
My internal on my 500 went out of alignment <long story but mostly my fault.>
Its 6 months old. If in a year it had gone out of alignment "normally" <ie due
to copy protection on psygnosis games> would they pay to get it fixed? Its
unheard of to sell products that cause damage to other components.
<flashback of ye olden dayes of the commodore 64/1541 drive going out of
alignment due to head knocking>
>--
>Richard McGowen
>
>"Men can't deal with commitment. They're afraid they'll get married and then
>meet the woman of their dreams at the reception." --Carrie Snow
F M Cargill
<Stuff deleted>
The excuse I heard was that there is the same proportion of piracy in both
the MS-DOS and the Amiga markets, but because the MS-DOS market is so big
there's a lot more games being sold, so the software houses can afford to not
put any key disk protection on the games.
I know, there are some important flaws in the argument, but some people
really think this way and use it as a justification for gronking your disk
drives.
My solution for HD installable games on the Amiga? Get the MS-DOS version and
run it off the BridgeBoard :-)
Gun Control is a firm grip
>In article <1991Jun8.0...@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> ss...@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gun Control is a firm grip) writes:
><Stuff deleted>
>>Why why why why why.....
>
>The excuse I heard was that there is the same proportion of piracy in both
>the MS-DOS and the Amiga markets, but because the MS-DOS market is so big
>there's a lot more games being sold, so the software houses can afford to not
>put any key disk protection on the games.
>
>I know, there are some important flaws in the argument, but some people
>really think this way and use it as a justification for gronking your disk
>drives.
>
>My solution for HD installable games on the Amiga? Get the MS-DOS version and
>run it off the BridgeBoard :-)
sigh. I have a 500 and have 0 intentions of getting a bridge... aside from the
fact that they are so expensive and 8mhtz.... bleah.
Matt Feifarek
Do the rings go in the little holes, or on the tips of the triangle?
Which hole/vertex do you start with?
What is the order of the rings?
THANKS A TON!!!
Matt Feifarek
Dennis Heffernan
We do not have to compromise. It's our money they're after, and if
they want MY gaming dollar, they'll damned well put out the products *I*
want. THEY work for US, not the other way around.
dfra...@tronsbox.xei.com ...uunet!tronsbox!dfrancis GEnie: D.HEFFERNAN1
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I don't understand why you make such a big deal out of everything...haven't
you learned; if it's not happenning to me it's not important?" -Murphy Brown
Steve Sheldon
>
> We do not have to compromise. It's our money they're after, and if
>they want MY gaming dollar, they'll damned well put out the products *I*
>want. THEY work for US, not the other way around.
>
>
Agreed!
The other one I get sick of is the notices that most software publishers
use. I mean all the "Do Not copy this, it is a crime" notices, followed
immediately by "This product carries no warranty of any kind. If it
doesn't do what you expected it to do, tough luck. If it damages your
computer in anyway, tough luck."
Considering that games cost $40+ anymore, it'd be nice if game companies
would be responsible for their products.
Steve Sheldon /// | Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum!
ta...@ccvax.iastate.edu /// |
Senior, Computer Science \XX/ | Non erravi perniciose!
Malcolm Diallo Moore
|>In article <1991Jun6.0...@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> xant...@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Kent Paul Dolan):
|>
|>Usually write intelligent things concerning the amiga world.
|>
|>
|>However, He has forgotten one very important thing that makes life with so many
|>people in the world livable, COMPROMISE. Although some of his complaints are
|
|Compromise... then the game should be manually protected instead of a key disk
|thing which usually doesnt work. There should be no need for compromise. What
|Psygnosis does with copy protection is not stopping piracy and almost
|encourages people to pirate so that they can make back-up copies for themselves
|rather than relying on a $15 fee for a copy from the company.
Exactly.
|
|I wonder if psygnosis's version of lemmings for the IBM will have strong
|protection on it, making it unable to be HD mountable... then requiring IBM
|users to pay an additional $15 or so for a HD mountable version that relies on
|key-disk protection. We rarely see this sort of thing on Macs or on Ms-dos
|platforms but see it all the time on the amiga, and you say we should
|compromise??? we want essentially equal access to our hardware.
|
Of course not.sAnd this is fact, because I saw it on show in our local
Software Etc. Store. He ran it from C:\> and it stood for a few seconds,
and then it came up. And no, it wasn't the demo, it was the real thing.
B
"He" was the dealer - no not a drug dealer.
|>still valid, for psygnosis to go as far as they did is amazing. For one thing,
|
|
|This shouldve been available in the 1st place, instead of making people pay
|upwards of $50 for a HD mountable game. I paid $40 for lemmings, why should I
|have to pay an additional $15 or so just for a version that is HD mountable?
|
Far as I'm concerned, you sh|uld get the thing for free. I wouldn't get it
anyway, because I'm on level 119.
>;most key-disk copy protection schemes I have seen on require you to insert the
|>on "one track of the floppy" than playing the whole game from a floppy.
|>Secondly, if you ever had played a floppy based version of lemmings you would
|>know that the disk acess is LONG, especially on systems with less than 1 MEG.
|>In my opinion, I am much more concerned with floppy vs hard drive access times
|>than the time it takes to find one floppy amid 12 to 1000 floppies. Finally,
|>we come back to COMPROMISE. Psygnosis still does not want Joe Average to be
|>able to give their games (an investment of their money) to the kid next door,
|>down the street, and the one they met once at school who has the same kind of
|>computer. On the other hand, most users that own a hard drive would love to
|
THey aren't worried about Joe Q Pirate with an IBM.
|Manual protection is as efficient as on disk copy protection in preventing
|this sort of thing. "joe average" will find a program that will allow you to
|make backups of all programs and merely use that to give the other person a
|copy.
|
|>be able to take advantage of the speed their hard drive gives them. If you
|>are going to play a game for over an hour, what is so bad about spending the
|>first 1 minute finding the key disk and not having to later sit through 10
|>minutes of floppy access. Psygnosis came more than halfway, but yet you
|>still want to condemn them for not going as far as you wanted. This
|>is the equivalent of you getting a speeding ticket and then yelling at the
|>officer for giving you one instead of the one he gave you that only had you
|>going 5 mph over the speed limit rather than the 50 mph per hour over the
|>speed limit you were actually going. If someone is doing something that you
|>see as going in the right direction, you should encourage them, not condemn
They half-did it. Half-doing a job is like not doing it at all. Would you
half-clean your bathroom? Nuff said.
Malcolm "The Capital MD" Moore
Sig closed for repair/remodeling - Will reopen within one week
Laurana Bailey
I think it's only fair to point out that the IBM version of Lemmings,
which is HD mountable, is also using the Key Disk protection system.
In this case, we do have the same protection scheme as what the IBMers
do.
Part of the reason game makers are so vigilant on protecting Amiga
software over IBM software is because the difference in the size of
the market. IBM has such a huge market that even with a lot of piracy
of unprotected software, they can still make enough sales to make a
profit. Whereas on the Amiga market, the sales volume won't be as high
even if they are able to prevent the game from being copied.
Gun Control is a firm grip
>
>I think it's only fair to point out that the IBM version of Lemmings,
>which is HD mountable, is also using the Key Disk protection system.
>In this case, we do have the same protection scheme as what the IBMers
>do.
>
>Part of the reason game makers are so vigilant on protecting Amiga
>software over IBM software is because the difference in the size of
>the market. IBM has such a huge market that even with a lot of piracy
>of unprotected software, they can still make enough sales to make a
>profit. Whereas on the Amiga market, the sales volume won't be as high
>even if they are able to prevent the game from being copied.
The only problem is that they then underestimate the size of piracy in the IBM
market. Shit, NYC agencies were pirating "XYWrite" and Lotus 1-2-3 and
Wordperfect until word hit the NY post a few weeks ago and a big stink was
made of it <not big enought that all the papers covered it though.>
>--
>/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
>|Just another lemming... | Yet another Amiga maniac set loose |
>| | on the world...and you thought things|
>|lmba...@vela.acs.oakland.edu | couldn't get any worse. |
Olivier Maquelin
(Matt Feifarek) writes:
>I cannot figure this one out... I tried everything I think.
>
>Do the rings go in the little holes, or on the tips of the triangle?
>
(or re-read) the hints given in the manual, you will find a passage telling
of locks requiring 'walking around objects'. Need I say more?
Olivier
Michel Buffa
I'm really fed-up with this endless discussion against Psygnosis. Ok,
Psygnosis games have defaults, but OCEAN games, Raibow Arts games, Midscape
Games, Mirrorsoft games, almost all company games have copy protection, and
Psygnosis is one of the rare company that produces good games like Lemmings.
Why do you always flame Psygnosis ?
Try US GOLD. They NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER made a good game. They
are only investing money on advertising campaign and sell a lot of insulting
games. Why don't you flame US GOLD.
In the past, I bought Thunder Blade, I bought Forgotten World, and these games
were really really bad, not because of the copy protection, they were just
very bad. Since then, I played sometimes cracked copies of US gold games and
never saw any improvement. Why would I buy one game from them ?
If you don't like Psygnosis, don't buy their games, but if you want to flame
somebody, there are a lot of worse game company than Psygnosis. I must admit
that I LOVED many Psygnosis games, and don't care much with the copy
protection if the game is really good.
Ok, now, let's flame US GOLD. What bad games from them have you played ?
--
------------------------------------------
Michel Buffa: Projet Robotvis, INRIA, France
Internet: bu...@sardaigne.inria.fr
Surface Mail: Michel BUFFA, INRIA - Sophia Antipolis,
2004, route des Lucioles, 06565 Valbonne Cedex -- FRANCE
Voice phone: (33) 93.65.78.39, Fax: (33) 93 65 77 65
------------------------------------------
Richard McGowen
It would be hard for most of us to post which US Gold games we had played that
were awful, because they are also quite forgettable.
Rick Kelly
>
>I just read in the latest issue of .Info that Psygnosis is releasing
>their hard disk installable version of Lemmings. Unfortunately it
>is key disk protected, so you need to insert the first floppy disk,
>each time you run it. According to the magazine, Psygnosis claims
>that they didn't want to use key disk protection, but it was the
>fastest way to get this version released (oh, brother).
>
>IMHO Psygnosis has missed the boat. I would have gladly purchased
>the upgrade, even if it resorted to manual look-up or code-wheel
>protection. I would have bought it, even though I have already
>finished Lemmings. But I won't buy it now.
>
>Anyone who is ready to accuse me of being a pirate -- don't bother.
>You don't know what you are talking about.
>
>Anyone who is ready to praise Psygnosis for taking this step --
>give me a break.
>
>If I were paranoid, I would say Psygnosis did this key disk protection
>thing on purpose, so no one will buy the hard disk installable Lemmings
>and they can claim that hard disk installability (if that's a word)
>is not something that people really want. That's if I were paranoid.
>
>As it is, I will conclude that old habits die hard and Psygnosis just
>couldn't take the step away from on-disk copy protection. Nice try
>Psygnosis -- too bad.
In actuality, it probably is faster to have the people who do their bulk
copy throw a keydisk program on every disk. This would cost them about
25 cents per copy. It would take them a while longer to write and debug
a manual lookup or codewheel routine.
I'm not defending them, I don't like copy protection at all. Most IBM games
coming out these days are hard disk installable with no copy protection.
Rick Kelly r...@rmkhome.UUCP frog!rmkhome!rmk r...@frog.UUCP
Stephan Schaem
Any game that run on the CDTV are developed to run on HDs.
The only problem is that games are devolped with the 512k limit and
leveing the system on take memory (more or less) and more for your
HD device... And environment to instable!
Untill someone try to market a game they wont know how tuff it is to
get money back on the develpment.
I curently port a game to the CDTV from a 3 disk ALL amiga game.
Even if their is no disk protection the disk version can be HD
only if the virtual memory was removed and use an extra 512K.
In that case 2 version would be needed for floppy/HD users, something
MANY compagnie cant afford.
I think people overlooked the developement problem.
Do you think software compagnie dont make Amiga HD instalable games
because they can make live with it?
If the amiga market was A3000 the develment stantard would be diferent.
IBM give reseon to make extra code to work on all diferent PC version.
Laurana Bailey
>If I were paranoid, I would say Psygnosis did this key disk protection
>thing on purpose, so no one will buy the hard disk installable Lemmings
>and they can claim that hard disk installability (if that's a word)
>is not something that people really want. That's if I were paranoid.
You might have missed it, but a few months back there was a big thread
on this newsgroup blasting Psygnosis for their lack of HD support. A
good friend of mine was part of that thread and the end result was
that several people frm Psygnosis saw it, replied, and agreed to
produce a Hard Drive installable version of Lemmings. It was a major
victory among the masses.
The key disk protection issue doesn't bother me. The version of
Lemmings for the PC is HD installable and also requires Key Disk
protection. I don't mind Key Disk protection as long as I can install
it on my HD although I prefer Manual Word lookup if any protection is
going to be used.
It took Psygnosis a while to figure out that there were people in the
world with more than 512K RAM and one internal floppy let alone hard
drives so this is a good first step. Kudos to Psygnosis for at least
trying to please all the people even though some refuse to compromise.
Kudos also to Electronic Arts who's latest ports show a better attempt
at decent coding and also support the HD.
Gregory R Block
(Genesis). And if they do a bang up job on that, they can rot in hell
for the rest of their frail and miserable lives. I can't believe that
they make money off of the crap they put out. But Sonic is one of the
best games I've seen out in a long time, and if someone like Psygnosis
were to do it, it would look great. But knowing that US gold can't
program worth their weight in rubber chickens and dildoes, I think
that they'll do a bang up job, and applaud themselves for their
insight.
Does anyone know of a game that is actually GOOD that is done by US
Gold? Strider I sucked big time, way too slow. But it's about the
only one I've really played...
Greg
--
All opinions are my own, and not those of my employer.
Why? He doesn't know I'm doing this.
-Wubba
Michel Buffa
We need more demos of games. If companies posted on BBS and distributed widely
demos of a game they are going to sell, they would less suffer from piracy:
-If the demo is really good, like the one we had for Lemmings, Turrican 1 & 2,
Gods, a lot of people will buy the final game. I bought these games as soon as
they became available.
-If the demo is bad, nobody will buy the game, that explain why demos are so
rare. People who spread demos of their games are very proud of what they are
going to sell. people who make bad games, like US GOLD never distributed a
preview or a demo of one of their games.
-A lot of people try to get cracked copies to check the games before buying,
especially when it's an unknown game, not written by famous people. Too much
risks ! Who here has never been disapointed by a brand new game. I had such
bad experience with Thunder Blade, F29 (buggy good flight sim, but buggy),
Forgotten worlds... others... Well, so each time I have the opportunity to try
a game (in a shop or an illegal copy), I do it. Look at all the games me and a
friend bought this year:
Game: Why I bought it
------- ---------------
CADAVER: I love previous games by the Bitmap Brothers
(Xenon 1 & 2, Speedball)
Z-OUT: Written by Factor 5, authors of R-TYPE, marketed
by Rainbow Arts, my favorite company for arcade
games.
TURRICAN 1: I played the demo and loved it.
TURRICAN 2: I loved Turrican 1
BATTLE COMMAND: I loved Carrier Command which I bought a few
years ago, written by the same persons
F29: I read very good reviews, saw nice picture in
magazines. First feeling: very good flight sim,
finally: bad game because it has a lot of bugs,
hasn't been tested. Never played it or a demo
before buying.
TEAM SUZUKI: We had a cracked copy we loved.
POWERMONGER: We loved Populous + nice reviews in magazine. We
were disappointed. Could not try it before
playing
M1 Tank Platoon: Had a cracked copy we loved.
KICK-OFF 2: Loved the first one.
Dragon Wars: Read good reviews, was at budget price. Good
game.
Lemmings: Loved the demo.
Forgot others...
Games I will buy as soon as they will be available:
--------------------------------------------------
Birds Of Prey: the new flight sim by Jez San, author of Starglider 2
Deuteros: follow-up to Millenium 2.2
R-TYPE 2: this one, I will try before because it hasn't been written by factor
5, authors of R-TYPE 1
All Bitmap Brothers titles.
CONCLUSION:
-----------
If demos were available for each game on the market, people would never buy
bad games, would never try to get cracked copies, would never been
disappointed, piracy would be less important and disk protection would not be
necessary no more.
Laurana Bailey
I think the reason that people Flame Psygnosis over companies like US
GOLD is because they've given up on US GOLD. No one this side of
sainity and/or a reviewer of games for Amiga Whirled ever pays
attention to anything US GOLD puts out. (One review at AW liked OUT
RUN which was one of the WORST ports I have ever tried to stomache)
Psygnosis, on the other hand, puts out some great games. These gripes
people have are really small when you think about it, but they are
things that hold back Lemmings from being PERFECT. Lemmings is a GREAT
game, but it isn't PERFECT. Same with some of their other stuff. When
you have something almost perfect you tend to complain more loudly
than when you have something thats awful.
I really don't understand how US GOLD stays in business with as cruddy
of ports as they put out.
I want to see more ports by Special F/X. They did ROBOCOP 2 and I was
very happy with that.
Adrian Hurt
>
>I'm really fed-up with this endless discussion against Psygnosis.
>
>Try US GOLD. They NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER made a good game. They
>are only investing money on advertising campaign and sell a lot of insulting
>games. Why don't you flame US GOLD.
The only US Gold game I have is "Their Finest Hour". It is (IMHO) the best
game I have bought, the only one I feel is actually worth the price. (You
may like it, or you may not. I do.)
"Their Finest Hour" has no copy protection, other than a "code wheel". This
is basically a form of look-up protection. The discs themselves are totally
unprotected. Not only can you make a back-up, the manual advises you to do
so. Not only can the game be installed on hard drive, you are given clear
instructions on how to do so.
Contrast this with the Psygnosis approach.
"Keyboard? How quaint!" - M. Scott
Adrian Hurt | JANET: adr...@uk.ac.hw.cs
UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian | ARPA: adr...@cs.hw.ac.uk
Jim Logan
# >
# >I REFUSE TO BUY ANY GAME THAT WILL NOT RUN FROM MY HARD DISK!
# >
# >I am boycotting ALL games that do not meet my standards.
# >
#
# If I can't win, I take my ball go home. :(
You missed the point. Game manufacturers need people to buy
their games, and they need to listen to what people want. If I
don't voice my opinion and I want to buy games, I will have to
live with playing games from my slow floppy disk.
To "take my ball [and] go home" is a selfish thing for a child to
do, and it is an inaccurate analogy. These game manufacturers
are not playmates -- they are only in it for the money. I'm
telling them that through cooperation they can get MORE of my
money without opening themselves up to piracy.
It is frustrating to spend almost $10k on a high-end computer to
find out that game manufacturers limit the enjoyability of the
game by making it run through slowed-down floppy disk access. To
my knowledge, they do not do this on any other platform but
Amiga. I will not support a software company with my hard earned
cash that dicks me over like that.
The only reason they do it is only for copy protection purposes
and if I tell them that they won't be able to sell games to me
because of this, they will consider alternative copy-protection
(like code-wheels).
I am stuck with $100 worth of games that are unplayable. Take
"Shadow of the Beast II" for instance. That game has beautiful
graphics and sound, but horrible playability. I have to wait for
almost a full minute to try again when my character dies and
there's no reason for that when I have a hard disk. I do not
want to be stuck with any more games that I cannot return to the
store! They are too expensive to "go out on a limb" for,
therefore I will not take any more chances with floppy-based
games.
(Sorry to single your game out as an example, Psygnosis, I think
you are an EXCELLENT game manufacturer with only one annoying
flaw!)
--
Jim Logan Home: logan%gim...@uunet.uu.net
Consultant Work: lo...@netx.com
Net Express, Inc. Phone: (703) 749-2269
Michel Buffa
I'm really pissed by this discussion against Psygnosis, as there are many many
worse companies on the market.
What you should do:
-Buy an IBM or a MAC, and stop posting bloody ennoying messages. Have you ever
played games on these machines ? There is not even one good arcade game, only
boring simulations that are better on the Amiga. If the price to pay is copy
protection, I accept it. IBM and MAC are not good for gaming.
-I bought my amiga in 1986 and never had any problem with my drives. I have
seen no game that destroyed or changed my head drives alignment.
-I have an HD, but I can not put all games on it. The only games that need to
be on a HD, like Sierra games or Stellar 7 or other IBM ports don't woth the
price of their box. If people suppose that everybody has an HD, has an
accelerator card, has a 3000, we won't see games like starglider 2, Carrier
Command that have a better 3D on a simple 68000 amiga than the flight sims on
IBM 486. Programmers must have constraints to be good.
-Stop flaming Psygnosis please, they enjoyed me so much with a lot of their
games...
-Flame Electronic Arts for Chuck Yeager flight sim awful IBM port (but HD
installable !)
-Flame Dynamix for awful IBM port of Stellar 7 (But Hd installable !)
-Flame US gold for their continuity in selling bad games.
Gun Control is a firm grip
>In article <16...@darkstar.ucsc.edu> mcg...@saturn.ucsc.edu
>(Richard McGowen) writes:
>It is frustrating to spend almost $10k on a high-end computer to
>find out that game manufacturers limit the enjoyability of the
>game by making it run through slowed-down floppy disk access. To
>my knowledge, they do not do this on any other platform but
>Amiga. I will not support a software company with my hard earned
>cash that dicks me over like that.
As Ive said before I only have a 500 with 1 meg, no HD or nothing but I plan
to get 2.0 when it comes out and eventually other shit for it. I understand
Speedball 2 doesnt run on a 3000. That sucks and that shouldnt be.
>The only reason they do it is only for copy protection purposes
>and if I tell them that they won't be able to sell games to me
>because of this, they will consider alternative copy-protection
>(like code-wheels).
"Copy protection" that is on disks is their security blanket. They clutch to
it like a whino clutches his drink, despite the fact it has had 0 effectiveness
in stopping piracy. <my opinion anyway>
>I am stuck with $100 worth of games that are unplayable. Take
>"Shadow of the Beast II" for instance. That game has beautiful
>graphics and sound, but horrible playability. I have to wait for
Ive always wondered what people exactly people mean by "playability."
Ive played SOTB 2 and the disk loads are a pain but I dont think that reduces
its playability. Mig 29's usage of the mouse to control the %@**#!! plane does
however.
>almost a full minute to try again when my character dies and
>there's no reason for that when I have a hard disk. I do not
>want to be stuck with any more games that I cannot return to the
>store! They are too expensive to "go out on a limb" for,
>therefore I will not take any more chances with floppy-based
>games.
>
>(Sorry to single your game out as an example, Psygnosis, I think
>you are an EXCELLENT game manufacturer with only one annoying
>flaw!)
>
>--
>Jim Logan Home: logan%gim...@uunet.uu.net
>Consultant Work: lo...@netx.com
>Net Express, Inc. Phone: (703) 749-2269
PiRho- Because its Co-Ed! Macintoshes should be accelerated at 32ft/sec^2
Gun Control means using both hands
"Maybe You should be accelerated at 32'/sec^2 off a cliff onto some jagged
rocks. Elitist smeghead" ia...@ijpc.UUCP in [L7613...@ijpc.UUCP]
Ed Goldman
>------- ---------------
> were disappointed. Could not try it before
> playing
Kind of agree. It was addicting for a while, but the strategy depth turned
out to be quite shallow. I *think* I heard something about a new scenarios
disk to be eventually released for this. Anyone heard about it?
>
>Games I will buy as soon as they will be available:
>--------------------------------------------------
>
>All Bitmap Brothers titles.
>
Their stuff is always high quality. I'd buy pretty much anything new by them
sight unseen.
Other miscellaneous stuff:
o Anyone ever played a game called "Brat"? Great graphics. Innovative
gameplay. It's sort of a platform type game, but you don't control the
main character with a joystick. Instead, you place directional arrows
ahead of his path with a mouse. There's all kinds of additional things
to pick up and puzzles to figure out. Haven't seen anything about it in
this newsgroup. The only downer about it is that it hits the disk a bit
too much.
o The author of Captive, Tony Crowther, is at work on a game using the same
basic engine as Captive, but supposedly LOTS more puzzle variety. It's
set in a dungeon-type environment, as oppoesed to Captive's space theme.
I think it's called Knightsbreed or something. Due out in Sept. Saw
some early screen shots, looks like a winner.
o I've heard about new levels disk for Cadaver. Anyone know when that's coming
out?
o I read a brief blurb and saw a screen shot of a game coming out called
Realm. It's a strategy game and it looked similar to Powermonger. Anyone
know anything about it?
-edg-
Stephan Schaem
The problem with piracy is not someone geting an ilegale copy and then
get an original because the game is good...
The problem is people buying illegal copy, and not buying originals.
Look italie or spain, why would anybody buy an original game there?
You see ad for pirate copy for almost nothing.
Many people dont consider the amiga game market looking good, and more
piracy will hurt that even more.
Gun Control is a firm grip
>worse companies on the market.
Worse being an objective term.
>What you should do:
>
>-Buy an IBM or a MAC, and stop posting bloody ennoying messages. Have you ever
>played games on these machines ? There is not even one good arcade game, only
>boring simulations that are better on the Amiga. If the price to pay is copy
>protection, I accept it. IBM and MAC are not good for gaming.
The IBM is not a bad machine for games. The amiga should be better and could
be but when games are ported to the amiga from the IBM they tend to suck.
F19 stealth is a so-so port from the IBM version. Pirates was much better on
the Amiga. Red Storm Rising is better on the Amiga. Gunship wasnt as good.
M1 tank platoon was mediocre.
>-I bought my amiga in 1986 and never had any problem with my drives. I have
>seen no game that destroyed or changed my head drives alignment.
>
>-I have an HD, but I can not put all games on it. The only games that need to
>be on a HD, like Sierra games or Stellar 7 or other IBM ports don't woth the
Shadow of the Beast 2 does. I havent played part 1 very much but after seeing
2, i cant bear to see 1. SOTB 2 doesnt even recognize DF1: for crying out
loud and in the 1st few minutes we have to wait a minute for it to load
another sequence off the floppy.
>price of their box. If people suppose that everybody has an HD, has an
>accelerator card, has a 3000, we won't see games like starglider 2, Carrier
>Command that have a better 3D on a simple 68000 amiga than the flight sims on
>IBM 486. Programmers must have constraints to be good.
The games should be runnable off a HD and on an accelerrated machine <although
not necessarily speed up on an accelerated machine like Populous does on my
friend's 3000 did>.
>-Stop flaming Psygnosis please, they enjoyed me so much with a lot of their
>games...
When they eliminate on disk protection ...
incidentally I still think lemmings shouldve been multitaskable. it is so
tetris like that you could pause the game and do work and then go back to it.
>-Flame Electronic Arts for Chuck Yeager flight sim awful IBM port (but HD
>installable !)
>
>-Flame Dynamix for awful IBM port of Stellar 7 (But Hd installable !)
>
>-Flame US gold for their continuity in selling bad games.
"What games have they released?"
I have no idea what games they made, i have barely heard of US gold, let
alone seen a game done by them.
>--
>------------------------------------------
>Michel Buffa: Projet Robotvis, INRIA, France
>
> Internet: bu...@sardaigne.inria.fr
>Surface Mail: Michel BUFFA, INRIA - Sophia Antipolis,
> 2004, route des Lucioles, 06565 Valbonne Cedex -- FRANCE
> Voice phone: (33) 93.65.78.39, Fax: (33) 93 65 77 65
>------------------------------------------
A friend of mine recently got Wrath of the Demon. He liked it but I was abit
annoyed at a few things. What? here goes my list:
1> Not HD Installable
2> "Ndos disks" <see #1>
3> Had the wrong title. <Shouldve been named Shadow Of the Beast 3.>
4> delays in playing of game due to loading off of floppy disk.
5> worse yet, it was 5 fucking disks and did not recognize df1:
Alot of companies do that, make games that dont recognize external drives and
that pisses me off because I already had to get my internal replaced a few
weeks ago <not related to copy protection schemes btw> and its a pain in the
ass to do that when you wear out the df0: on your 500 due to constant ejecting
of disks or because of wierd sounds eminating from it thanks to the on disk
protection.
PiRho- Because its Co-Ed! Macintoshes should be accelerated at 32ft/sec^2
Gun Control means using both hands
Jamie Badman
Monger; World War I disk and Middle Earth.
Jamie.
David Witzany
>The only US Gold game I have is "Their Finest Hour". It is (IMHO) the best
>game I have bought, the only one I feel is actually worth the price. (You
>may like it, or you may not. I do.)
"Their Finest Hour" is by LucasFilm, not US Gold.
--
Dave Witzany
(wit...@sparc1.isgs.uiuc.edu)
Jim Logan
# Psygnosis games have defaults, but OCEAN games, Raibow Arts games, Midscape
# Games, Mirrorsoft games, almost all company games have copy protection, and
# Psygnosis is one of the rare company that produces good games like Lemmings.
# Why do you always flame Psygnosis ?
I don't hear anyone recommending those games, so I wouldn't buy
them anyway. When I hear, "Lemmings is the most awesome game
I've ever seen!", and I go out and buy the game and then find out
I have to run it from floppy, that bothers me!
Some other bad-game manufacturers don't bother me at all. Their
games are cruddy and I am not even interested. On the other hand
I haven't seen a bad Psygnosis game yet (with the exception of
playability in SoB II).
The company that I don't have ANY problem with is Accolade. I
own Star Control, it's an awesome game, and it runs from my hard
drive. I wouldn't hesitate to pick up one of their games because
I have not had a bad experience with them. I WOULD hesitate to
buy another Psygnosis game, despite the awesome graphics and
sound, because I cannot use their games on my hard drive.
-Jim
--
Jim Logan Home: lo...@gimlet.cntv.va.us
kam hung soh
>.... If people suppose that everybody has an HD, has an
>accelerator card, has a 3000, we won't see games like starglider 2, Carrier
>Command that have a better 3D on a simple 68000 amiga than the flight sims on
>IBM 486. Programmers must have constraints to be good.
Good programmers recognise constraints, but do not force users to live
with them.
----------
Soh, Kam Hung email: h....@trl.oz.au tel: +61 3 541 6403
Telecom Research Laboratories, POB 249 Clayton, Victoria 3168, Australia
David Greenberg
I've been reading this "war" for a while now and have been hesitant
to join, and I am still sitting on the fence, but I have something to say:
I think it is outrageous for a company to ask for more money
for a HD installable (ie. not protected) game. What is it for?
more money for less programming (ie protection?) or more money
to make up for the fact that the person who gets the unprotected
version will pirate it?
I think that if a company wants to charge more for a Non-protected
version, then hell, charge less for the Protected one!
Just my 2 cents,
Dave
Corey Lawson
US Gold probably stays in business because most of their market is probably
people under the age of, say, 16. No, maybe 12. People who don't think much
about things such as real usability, etc. If they can play it and show it
off to their friends, then the game is "good".
-corey lawson
(Oh...I sort of used to be like that, but then I got a credit card)
Michel Buffa
> Rumor has it that they bought the rights to Sonic the Hedgehog
> (Genesis). And if they do a bang up job on that, they can rot in hell
> for the rest of their frail and miserable lives. I can't believe that
> they make money off of the crap they put out. But Sonic is one of the
> best games I've seen out in a long time, and if someone like Psygnosis
> were to do it, it would look great.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I read that people from PROBE SOFTWARE (very bad company
that works for US GOLD) are doing the port. This would mean another bad US
GOLD game. I'm dreaming about a port od Sonic... by Psygnosis, with the
original playability please !
But knowing that US gold can't
> program worth their weight in rubber chickens and dildoes, I think
> that they'll do a bang up job, and applaud themselves for their
> insight.
I'm not expecting anything good from them. They made so many bad games.
> Does anyone know of a game that is actually GOOD that is done by US
> Gold? Strider I sucked big time, way too slow. But it's about the
> only one I've really played...
I loved Strider in the arcades, and was really disappoionted when I tried
their Amiga port (by Tiertex, another bad company that works for Us Gold). The
only game I found playable is Shadow Dancers. But its graphics, sound effects,
presentation, everything is ugly. The best game from Us Gold is not a good
game, just an average game !!!!!!!!!
Atul Srinivasan
>
>Kudos also to Electronic Arts who's latest ports show a better attempt
>at decent coding and also support the HD.
What are some of the latest EA Ports ? I was severely disappointed with BT3 and haven't
kept up since.
>
>
>--
>/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
>|Just another lemming... | Yet another Amiga maniac set loose |
>| | on the world...and you thought things|
>|lmba...@vela.acs.oakland.edu | couldn't get any worse. |
>
Thanks
Atul
.sig
Brett Bourbin
> In article <11...@mirsa.inria.fr> bu...@mirsa.inria.fr writes:
> >
> >I'm really fed-up with this endless discussion against Psygnosis.
> > ...
> >
> >Try US GOLD. They NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER made a good game. They
> >are only investing money on advertising campaign and sell a lot of insulting
> >games. Why don't you flame US GOLD.
>
> The only US Gold game I have is "Their Finest Hour". It is (IMHO) the best
> game I have bought, the only one I feel is actually worth the price. (You
> may like it, or you may not. I do.)
Actually, THEIR FINEST HOUR was developed by Lucasfilms and distributed by
US Gold in the UK. Lucasfilms puts a lot into gameplay and development.
I know that US Gold produces products themselves also, but can not comment
on these titles.
> Adrian Hurt | JANET: adr...@uk.ac.hw.cs
--
__
Brett Bourbin \ / /(_ /\/ 11440 Commerce Park Drive
..!uunet!visix!brett \/ / __)/ /\ Reston, Virginia 22091
br...@visix.com Software Inc (703) 758-2733
Laurana Bailey
| worse companies on the market.
Sorry to have upset you...
|
| What you should do:
|
| -Buy an IBM or a MAC, and stop posting bloody ennoying messages. Have you ever
| played games on these machines ? There is not even one good arcade game, only
| boring simulations that are better on the Amiga. If the price to pay is copy
| protection, I accept it. IBM and MAC are not good for gaming.
Not true. There are several games on the IBM that were disasters when
they were ported to the Amiga. Chuck Yeager's AFT is one I can think
of. Bloody well great on the IBM, sick as a mule on the Amiga. In
general, the Amiga has better games, but that is not an absolute.
|
| -I bought my amiga in 1986 and never had any problem with my drives. I have
| seen no game that destroyed or changed my head drives alignment.
I haven't either, but then I've been lucky. I have friends who have
had to have their drives re-aligned a few times becuase of copy
protection gronking the hell out of them.
|
| -I have an HD, but I can not put all games on it. The only games that need to
| be on a HD, like Sierra games or Stellar 7 or other IBM ports don't woth the
| price of their box. If people suppose that everybody has an HD, has an
| accelerator card, has a 3000, we won't see games like starglider 2, Carrier
| Command that have a better 3D on a simple 68000 amiga than the flight sims on
| IBM 486. Programmers must have constraints to be good.
Give me a break. If it's written for the Amiga it should at LEAST take
an assumption that SOMEONE out there has bought an A3000 and just
MIGHT like to play that game inbetween doing whatever major important
things they are doing with their machine. Even if it doesn't support
an HD it should at least run on a 68030 or 020 based machine. It
doesn't take that much more effort and they won't piss anyone off in
the process. HD installability is a nice feature to have, but isn't an
absolute must have (IMHO). It should work on all machines though.
|
| -Stop flaming Psygnosis please, they enjoyed me so much with a lot of their
| games...
Thats like saying: Stop flaming the U.S. Government! Sure they're not
perfect, but their trying!
If we don't let them know what we want, they won't have any reason to
get better. Why should I settle for almost everything I'd like to have
when I can have it all? Why do you think I bought an Amiga instead of
an IBM? IBM was almost everything I wanted, the Amiga WAS everything I
wanted.
|
| -Flame Electronic Arts for Chuck Yeager flight sim awful IBM port (but HD
| installable !)
We have, and will continue to do so in the future.
|
| -Flame Dynamix for awful IBM port of Stellar 7 (But Hd installable !)
I haven't seen this one so I can not comment.
|
| -Flame US gold for their continuity in selling bad games.
No one buys US Gold games around here anyways so whats the point of
flaming them? They aren't anywhere near perfect and no amount of
flaming will change that.
| --
| ------------------------------------------
| Michel Buffa: Projet Robotvis, INRIA, France
|
| Internet: bu...@sardaigne.inria.fr
| Surface Mail: Michel BUFFA, INRIA - Sophia Antipolis,
| 2004, route des Lucioles, 06565 Valbonne Cedex -- FRANCE
| Voice phone: (33) 93.65.78.39, Fax: (33) 93 65 77 65
| ------------------------------------------
Laurana
The Laughing Prophet
>The games should be runnable off a HD and on an accelerrated machine <although
>not necessarily speed up on an accelerated machine like Populous does on my
>friend's 3000 did>.
??? You got Populous to run on a 3000??? HOW?
I've had this game for months, and I can only play it on other people's
computers. It's one of the things I liked most about rooming with a 500
owner.
--SeebS--
--
Peter Seebach - The Laughing Prophet | | Anonymous Posting Here!
I don't speak for St. Olaf, St. Olaf | | se...@acc.stolaf.edu
doesn't speak for me, and Marcel Marceau | | "Forgive them Father, for they
speaks for no one. | | do not get the joke..."
Gun Control is a firm grip
>In article <1991Jun13.0...@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> ss...@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gun Control is a firm grip) writes:
>>The games should be runnable off a HD and on an accelerrated machine <although
>>not necessarily speed up on an accelerated machine like Populous does on my
>>friend's 3000 did>.
>
>??? You got Populous to run on a 3000??? HOW?
>I've had this game for months, and I can only play it on other people's
>computers. It's one of the things I liked most about rooming with a 500
>owner.
Well *I* didnt get it to run. it just worked. However it was the 1st time I
ever saw populous and asked my friend "why are the little men _running_
around?" and he said "thats the point. on a 500 they walk around, slowly..."
Apprantly it was really fast on a 3000, it may not be very playable as a
result. I suppose I can ask him what he did <he just popped in the disk and it
ran...>
>--SeebS--
>--
>Peter Seebach - The Laughing Prophet | | Anonymous Posting Here!
>I don't speak for St. Olaf, St. Olaf | | se...@acc.stolaf.edu
>doesn't speak for me, and Marcel Marceau | |"Forgive them Father, for they
>speaks for no one. | | do not get the joke..."
Stefan Becker
Insert the Powermonger disk BEFORE you turn on the machine (or use a kickstart
removing tool). Powermonger seems only to run on the A3000 boot ROM (V36.16)
Stefan
--
Mail : Stefan Becker, Holsteinstrasse 9, D-5100 Aachen /// Only
Phone : +49-241-505705 FIDO: 2:242/7.6 Germany /// Amiga makes
Domain: ste...@informatik.rwth-aachen.de \\\/// it possible..
Bang : ..mcvax!unido!rwthinf!stefanb \XX/ -->A3000/25<--
Greg Harvey
>In article <16...@darkstar.ucsc.edu> mcg...@saturn.ucsc.edu
>(Richard McGowen) writes:
># >ATTENTION ALL GAME MANUFACTURERS!!!
># >
># >I REFUSE TO BUY ANY GAME THAT WILL NOT RUN FROM MY HARD DISK!
># >
># >I am boycotting ALL games that do not meet my standards.
># >
>#
># If I can't win, I take my ball go home. :(
>You missed the point. Game manufacturers need people to buy
>their games, and they need to listen to what people want. If I
>don't voice my opinion and I want to buy games, I will have to
>live with playing games from my slow floppy disk.
>To "take my ball [and] go home" is a selfish thing for a child to
>do, and it is an inaccurate analogy. These game manufacturers
>are not playmates -- they are only in it for the money. I'm
>telling them that through cooperation they can get MORE of my
>money without opening themselves up to piracy.
Jim may not want to be considered selfish with his money. He
may not like to have the "I take my ball go home" applied to
him. I, on the other hand, don't mind. Game manufacturers
who do not service the reasonable desires of their customers
deserve to enter bankruptcy. Given a company like Psygnosis
which produces excellent games, I would hate to have
them go, but I will not continue to buy their games should they
decide to continue the current policy. Having bought five
from them (and deliriously happy with each...though some are
hard to play and floppy bound), at $30-50 per, I feel I
have earned the right to levy expectations on the company.
After all, if they let me use my hard disk and STILL
continue putting out good games, I'm in it for the long
haul. I wouldn't be surprised if I were to buy every
game they produced. And I have friends who feel the
same way...LOTS OF THEM. We've already fought this
battle on the IBM and won. I'm willing to fight it
on the Amiga, too.
[stuff deleted]
>(Sorry to single your game out as an example, Psygnosis, I think
>you are an EXCELLENT game manufacturer with only one annoying
>flaw!)
I agree with Jim here, Psygnosis! Please remove the only
obstacle to us saying you are the BEST EVER game
manufacturer.
On the other hand, Sir-Tech satisfied this criteria with
their current qame. Guess what got bought immediately?
'Nuff said? Money talks in a market (free or otherwise)
economy. My money is talking....anybody listening?
--
If you get the impression I'm not qualified to speak for my company, it's
because I ain't, I can't, I don't, I won't, and I don'wanna.
Greg Harvey --Temporarily without mail service
Lockheed, Houston Texas --Hope to have a PSCNI route soon!
Corey Lawson
>In article <676362...@egsgate.FidoNet.Org> Laurana...@f98.n250.z1.FidoNet.Org (Laurana Bailey) writes:
>>
>>Kudos also to Electronic Arts who's latest ports show a better attempt
>>at decent coding and also support the HD.
>
>What are some of the latest EA Ports ? I was severely disappointed with BT3 and haven't
>kept up since.
>
>>
Well, BT3 is kind of lame on the Commodore 64, too. It wasn't done by the
same guy who did BT1 (and BT2, I think), even though it was done by his
company for EA. Too bad...
Oh well, I should talk. I still have to finish BT1...
And...anyone with some hints on how to kill Neuromancer and what Hemlock1.0
is for?
-corey lawson
alf...@milton.u.washington.edu
Michel Buffa
> The only US Gold game I have is "Their Finest Hour". It is (IMHO) the best
> game I have bought, the only one I feel is actually worth the price. (You
> may like it, or you may not. I do.)
Their Finest Hour is a game by Lucasfilm Games, which is an excellent company.
Maybe US GOLD is the distributor of this game, but they haven't been involved
in this game creation at all. It is a 100% LucasFilm game. US GOLD is also the
distributor of Raibow Arts in some countries. That doesn't mean that they make
good games, but all the games they bought the rights for are bad, at least the
ones I tried like Strider, Rotox... The only one I liked is Shadow Dancers,
but it is just average" good playability but ugly graphics and sounds.
hami...@intersil.uucp
> ??? You got Populous to run on a 3000??? HOW?
Use Project D to de-protect the disk, then copy the disk to a directory
on your harddisk (let's say "Pop").
Then write a script like this (let's call it "Populous"):
cd DH0:Pop
Assign sys: DH0:Pop ; (I can't remember if this is necessary or not)
run NoFastMem ;kill fast ram so game runs near normal speed.
CPU nocache ; disables instruction cache to further slow down machine.
Populous ; the name of the Populous executable
This works for me...
--
Fred Hamilton "Unlike most of you,
Harris Semiconductor I am not a nut..."
Santa Clara, CA -Homer Simpson
Darren Stone
getting easier and easier to beat (and the graphics/sound are dull).
Is there a cribbage game for the Amiga someone could recommend?
I think I've seen one by Hoyle, along with other card games.
Are there any others, and how well do they look/sound, and especially
>play<?
Thanx. - Darren -