A Dealer's Perspective (Semi-Long)
J.P. Hillenburg
--
Joseph Hillenburg (xterm), NPS Technologies, Bloomington, Indiana
UUCP: j...@anaconda.Bloomington.IN.US \ /
"My OTHER computer is a CM-5" +----o0o----+
INET: j...@shell.portal.com Long live the Hornet
%-%-%-%- >8 snip snip 8< -%-%-%-%-
Released: 2/1/1993
1/6-9/1994 - CES Consumer Electronics Show, Las Vegas, Nevada.
This is a report of a conversation held at CES between John DiLullo, head of
Marketing for Commodore U.S. and an Amiga dealer.
-Kris Kuntz & Jeff Cupp, Digital Arts, Bloomington, IN
Allow us to introduce ourselves to you. We are a full-service Amiga
dealer in Bloomington, Indiana. It's not a huge town, not a small town either
and home to Indiana University. We have been a dealer for the last 3 1/2 years
and are very active in promoting all aspects of the Amiga. Yes, we sell Video
Toasters but they account for only about 1/2 of the number of actual computers
we sell. We advertise in local media, we go out and do many shows and
demonstrations, and we have worked hard to make our store well-stocked, clean
and professional looking. We are, as I was told once by a Commodore rep, the
kind of store Commodore likes to have promoting their product.
We have made a commitment to Commodore and work hard on their behalf.
(Many of you at this point will undoubtedly label us as stupid.)
We have heard everyone's complaints about Commodore's management or
mismanagement of the Amiga line and tend to agree at least a little with both
sides. (If you think Commodore treats its dealers badly, check out what Apple
has done to theirs over the past several years!). Commodore's biggest problem
seems to be in marketing and we realize that they don't have much of a budget
here in the United States. That problem could be helped by Commodore
International but they seem to feel the U.S. is not worth it. Since we are not
a large chain store, we have become rather creative in getting the most from
our marketing dollar. We thought we might have some low cost ideas that
Commodore U.S. could make use of.
So here's the meat of this letter. We decided to take a break from work
and go to the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas this last week to see
Commodore's main announcement of the CD32 here in the United States. Their
booth was upstairs away from the main floor and about as far away from the
"game machine" area as they could possibly be. As far as we could tell, there
were no big announcements of this great new game machine and our feeling was
that the "launch" was more of a sputter.
While we were in the both, we spoke with John DiLullo, head of marketing
for Commodore U.S.. The following are comments he made to us:
1) Commodore doesn't want Amiga dealers selling the CD32s. He told us
that "the Amiga market is the wrong place to sell the CD32s" and that "Amiga
people will find the CD32s". At the show they were looking for chain stores to
pick up the CD32. This is why none of your local dealers have CD32s yet -
unless they have worked out a deal with a Canadian dealer to bring them in
through Canada. Commodore is really up set by dealers who have managed to do
this, they claim it will mess up their U.S. marketing plan. No one seems to be
able to tell us about the U.S. marketing plan. A really super 30-second TV
commercial was done for Europe and we were able to see it in the booth at CES.
Of course, we were also told that it would be too expensive to really run
here in the U.S.. It was actually a question to Mr. DiLullo about allowing
dealers to have copies to do local TV insertions which brought up the initial
comment of them not wanting dealers to sell CD32s. Obviously they don't really
want our help promoting them either. We are also Commodore developers and
happen to have had a CD32 for demo since early December. We informed Mr.
DiLullo that we had been showing it to both Amiga and non-Amiga owners and that
we actually had several pre-sold. He said that that was too bad, they'd just
have to get them somewhere else and gave us the strong impression that it was a
real waste of our time even showing the CD32 to people (unless we were planning
it simple to help promote any products we might develop.)
2) He told us that the CD32 would be a much better product for Commodore to
sell since support would be really unnecessary. He suggested that the computers
required service technicians, training for purchasers and worst of all parts
supplies for repairs. "If a CD32 breaks they just bring it back and get another
one." He seemed to like the idea of Commodore simply being a manufacturing firm
for a single, simple product.
3) Mr. DiLullo specifically told us that the Amiga 1200 cannot compete with
386 systems and because of this, Commodore plans to stop manufacturing 1200s.
They will not officially discontinue them, just stop making them. He did say
that after they started selling CD32s in Europe that 1200 sales doubled but he
feels that would never happen in the U.S.. When we suggested that we sell 1200s
against PCs all the time because they have features lacking in PCs, he informed
us that that was a purely emotional reaction to the Amiga and not a legitimate
business reaction. He told us that the Amiga was only realistically going to
sell in the tiniest of niche markets and that was how it was always going to
be. (He used the pyramid example saying that the PCs were at the broad base of
sales and that the Amiga was at the smallest top point of the sales.) Intel
happened to be doing a presentation at the show which mentioned that by the
year 2000 it is expected that the average home will have 2.5 computers. We told
him that we saw no reason why the second computer in the home could not be an
Amiga (a PC being the first to fit with his views). He told us that basically
we were full of it and that it would absolutely never happen. "Amiga will never
be a household name."
4) Last but most certainly not least, when we suggested that perhaps
Commodore should use its loyal customers on a local level to help promote the
Amiga, he informed us that "the fanatical Amiga owners are an embarrassment to
Commodore."
So, after this amazing little talk with Mr. DiLullo, we went back to our
hotel and considered chucking it all and moving to the wilderness (no computers
for miles and miles). After we calmed down a bit we went back the next day and
spoke to some other people who know what's happening in the real world of
Commodore (distributors). Yes, Canada is starting to have product to sell and
we could be selling them too if Commodore would allow the normal distributors
to have them. One of the large distributors has told us that they expect
Commodore will change their minds about dealers when no chain stores start
ordering units to sell. They expect it will take until the end of the quarter
(late March) before they make them available to dealers though.
As for 1200s, we actually found out this week that since the demand rose
so sharply in Europe, Commodore went back into production of 1200s and that
NTSC versions should begin to be more readily available.
In regards to marketing or lack of marketing in the U.S., talking to Mr.
DiLullo cleared up many questions as to its poor quality here in the U.S.. When
the head of marketing obviously doesn't believe in the product he is to
promote, doesn't believe that anyone in the general market would ever want to
have his product, feels his product is a pain to support and is "embarrassed"
by the current owners of his product, it's not surprising that his efforts to
promote the product are limp or non-existent. After talking to him we were
thoroughly embarrassed by Commodore. We can only hope that he is a very unusual
case at Commodore and that perhaps they are not aware of his attitudes and
comments. Since we were not able to talk to Geoff Stilley (General Manager
Commodore U.S.) or Mehdi Ali (President-Commodore International) we cannot
guarantee that Mr. DiLullo's comments really represent all of Commodore. As a
dealer, developer user, and stockholder we are appalled that anyone with those
kinds of attitudes would be put in charge of marketing or anything having to
do with sales of the Amiga product!
We've written this letter because we want to let people know what
Commodore's plans really are. Below are the names and addresses of 3 people at
Commodore we would like you to write to as well as the address for the
Commodore Shareholder's Movement (they will take anything you send them to the
Commodore Board of Directors meeting coming up in March). We feel that
marketing needs to be strongly looked at, that dealers should be allowed to
carry CD32s along with all those chain stores and be allowed to start selling
them NOW, and that perhaps if Commodore was a bit more committed to us then we
might be able to help them regain some of the market here in the U.S..
Please write a letter to them and send copies to all three gentlemen and
to the CSM (try to be polite and reasonable) telling them what you think about
the current situation and please offer suggestions (again, be polite-after all,
we're "fanatical Amiga owners" and will be dismissed if we don't appear
reasonable).
Mr. Geoff Stilley & Mr. John DiLullo
Commodore Business Machines
1200 Wilson Drive
West Chester, PA 19380
Mr. Mehdi Ali
Commodore International Limited
375 Park Ave..
New York, NY 10152
Commodore Shareholder's Movement
P.O. Box 8296
Philadelphia, PA 19101
Author: Kris Kuntz
Retyped: Jeremiah S. Junken
For further correspondence, questions or other information, please mail:
Jeff Cupp: jc...@bix.com
Mike Sears: mse...@bix.com
[Note: the Reply-To field is already set, so all you have to do is press
the "r" key -jph]
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Robert J Tatz
educational marketing (or was it 87-88?) they made a push at OSU -
meetings with faculty, supporting a student user group, etc. All of
us felt that Dr. Harrison was a breath of fresh air, but couldn't figure
out why this one assistant, John DiLullo kept bad mouthing the Amiga.
Well, actually he complained about everything, including walking up
one flight of stairs. Oh well, we thought it was just a weak link.
We figured with his attitude that DiLullo wouldn't last. But we've
all heard of the Peter principle. It just seemed that DiLullo was
the proverbial IBM/Microsoft mole that was effectively killing the
Amiga. Looks like he hasn't changed a bit.
Rats!
Bob rjt...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Kelvin Leung
>John DiLullo kept bad mouthing the Amiga.
>Well, actually he complained about everything, including walking up
>one flight of stairs. Oh well, we thought it was just a weak link.
>We figured with his attitude that DiLullo wouldn't last. But we've
>all heard of the Peter principle. It just seemed that DiLullo was
>the proverbial IBM/Microsoft mole that was effectively killing the
>Amiga. Looks like he hasn't changed a bit.
>Bob rjt...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Argh! you mean C= "dismissed" its good engineers in favor of keeping
this guy? This is truly pathetic. Are you sure he isn't in charge
of selling C= brand of PCs? Oh wait... I think C= has dropped out
of the PC cut-throat market, no?
--Kelvin
PS: Hiya, Skip! I miss ya! I heard you sold your 3000, did you sell your
4000 too? anyway, thanks for inviting me to read this newsgroup
again. :)
John Corey
>WOW! Has it been that long? I too remember the feeling of excitement
>when John Harrison visited our campus and decided to award us a grant
>to start an Amiga Classroom with nearly forty Amigas in the department.
>That was 4 years ago. I also remember receiving a visit from DiLullo
>and listening to his complaining that CBM might just be wasting their
>money with such projects. I simply dismissed it at the time and decided
>he was simply a frustrated "old-timer" who was unable to see the "good"
>that Harrison was doing. And now!!! This guy is in a leading managerial
>position at CBM. What a joke.
>
Hmm .. if this DiLullio guy has been badmouthing the Amiga and it's users
for the last 4 years, you'd wonder if CBM knows about it? I mean, if
they did know he was doing this, surely they'd either tell him to get his
act together of fire him (I assume CBM is at least that smart :)...
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Fonda ain't got a motor in the back of her Honda.
"My anaconda don't want none, unless it's got buns, hun!!"
John Corey cu...@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu
Herb Brown
WOW! Has it been that long? I too remember the feeling of excitement
when John Harrison visited our campus and decided to award us a grant
to start an Amiga Classroom with nearly forty Amigas in the department.
That was 4 years ago. I also remember receiving a visit from DiLullo
and listening to his complaining that CBM might just be wasting their
money with such projects. I simply dismissed it at the time and decided
he was simply a frustrated "old-timer" who was unable to see the "good"
that Harrison was doing. And now!!! This guy is in a leading managerial
position at CBM. What a joke.
Herb
--
Herbert I Brown Mathematics Dept, The Univ at Albany, Albany, NY 12222
Director, (518) 442-4640
Computer Assisted Instruction in Mathematics hib...@math.albany.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Skip Sauls
>
>PS: Hiya, Skip! I miss ya! I heard you sold your 3000, did you sell your
> 4000 too? anyway, thanks for inviting me to read this newsgroup
> again. :)
Yeah, I sold 'em, but I won't get into that right now, it only serves
to act as extra fuel for the fire. It's good to see you back though,
many of the "old-timers" are still here, along with some relatively
fresh meat. Believe it or not, I actually bought something made by
Atari, a Jaguar. Weird, eh? I like it okay, but it hasn't grown on
me yet like the Amiga did.
Skip Sauls
Jason Freund
wards. I've been developing for several years and have done a commercial and
several PD programs. I would think Commodore would like that.
But Commodore has stopped supporting small developers. I paid my
$75 developer fee and haven't received the promised AmigaMail in about a
year. They used to provide lots of useful information for free (it came
with the $75 fee). But now, not only have they laid off all developer
support people and stopped developer support news, but it seems they're
doing their best to stop us. They took my $75 and haven't delivered any of
the regular items they're supposed to. I left voice mail with 4 people about
10-20 times over 2 weeks and no one returned my calls.
Hilarious story:
I finally reached Mr. Dilulu. I wanted to get a list of user
groups. A year ago, I asked for the list and they immediately sent it
to me on disk, and printed. But now, that person is gone and Mr. Dilulu
is in charge of the list.
He said no, obviously. He didn't know if he could trust a stranger
on the phone to use the list properly :) I told him they used to give the
list away to anyone for free. I told him there is even a list in ACGuide.
I just wanted to get the new list to reference it against my own to see
if there are any differences. I finally got a little frustrated and said
"What are you afraid of here? ..."
He told me that a bunch of BS about people misusing the list --
it finally came down to: someone once got the list and used it to send
letters to user groups that made fun of Commodore marketing. He said
he didn't want to shoot himself in the foot and let that happen again.
So he was going to get a copy of my program (its just a calendar program)
and see for himself that it's a calendar program. Then he was going to
approve sending the list to me. Obviously that never happened.
I guess we can't have these crazy amiga developers using our
copy of a public list of public groups to make fun of us. :)
Jason
--
Ivan Ivanick
hib...@phoebe.albany.edu (Herb Brown) writes:
>In article <2ip2vv$6...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> rjt...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Robert J Tatz) writes:
>>Boy, flashback time. Back in 88-89, when CBM made an attempt to have
>>educational marketing (or was it 87-88?) they made a push at OSU -
>>meetings with faculty, supporting a student user group, etc. All of
>>us felt that Dr. Harrison was a breath of fresh air, but couldn't figure
>>out why this one assistant, John DiLullo kept bad mouthing the Amiga.
>>Well, actually he complained about everything, including walking up
>>one flight of stairs. Oh well, we thought it was just a weak link.
>>We figured with his attitude that DiLullo wouldn't last. But we've
>>all heard of the Peter principle. It just seemed that DiLullo was
>>the proverbial IBM/Microsoft mole that was effectively killing the
>>Amiga. Looks like he hasn't changed a bit.
>>
>>Rats!
>>
>>Bob rjt...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
>>
>
>WOW! Has it been that long? I too remember the feeling of excitement
>when John Harrison visited our campus and decided to award us a grant
>to start an Amiga Classroom with nearly forty Amigas in the department.
>That was 4 years ago. I also remember receiving a visit from DiLullo
>and listening to his complaining that CBM might just be wasting their
>money with such projects. I simply dismissed it at the time and decided
>he was simply a frustrated "old-timer" who was unable to see the "good"
>that Harrison was doing. And now!!! This guy is in a leading managerial
>position at CBM. What a joke.
>
>Herbert I Brown Mathematics Dept, The Univ at Albany, Albany, NY 12222
I too have stared incredulously at DiLullo's actions and manner, but
I think the fundamental point has been made.
As a stockholder, how does one go about requesting DiLullo's head on a
pole?
Ivan Ivanick esr...@mvs.oac.ucla.edu
Teler Eyal
|> If you really believe that this guy is doing C= harm, and you have a
|> first person anecdote to prove it, then you might like to consider
|> writing a letter explaining what he did, and how you think it harmed C=
|> (in a non flaming style of course) to C='s board.
From what I read, the problem is the whole C= US management. Most people
there seem to be rude and unsupportive of the Amiga (Gould and Ali
anecdotes have been aired in the past, even by British mags).
The only high ranking person who seems to be enthusiastic about the Amiga
in the US is Mr. Eggebrecht.
In the UK, on the other hand, the management is totally devoted to the
Amiga, and it shows. Not only do they have advertisment, but they also
think of new bundles and have press releases, etc.
(The only PC magazine I regularly read, PCW, is British, and while they
don't have Amiga coverage, there were news articles about the CD32 when
it came out, and before that about the A1200, when its price was reduced.
They also had a full A1200 review when it came out, and I'm sure that
C= management has something to do with this - like sending a machine to
be reviewed.)
If only they were the ones managing C= worldwide...
ET
--
Unlike some other ETs, I can really phone home
Barry Einstein
:I know there are plenty of reasons to gripe -- I even posted my little
:contribution to the Dilullo thread.I've been working on the Amiga for 6 years
:and commercially developing for 2.I've had plenty of bad experiences that I'd
: like to share with everybody.
: But that's one of the problems. We never hear the good side. When
: things go wrong -- everyone is quick to speak up. But when someone does
: something good, we don't show enough appreciation.
: So here's a counter-story:
: I was told by someone who used to work for commodore's developer
: support that the best way for me to advertise would be to enclose a letter
: or brochure in a developer mailing. So I invested most of my earnings at
: the time on a flyer.
: By the time it was ready, that person was gone, and the new policy
:was that they didn't include general advertising in their developer mailings.
: But instead of sinking a developer, they made an exception.
: I want to thank the people at CATS for going out of their way to
:give special consideration and make the best of an otherwise bad situation.
: Ok -- now everyone else needs to think of something positive to say
: about commodore. If everyone does, then maybe it could counter the
: negativeness that spirals down and inward on this group.
: At the same time, I hope that Commodore is listening to the gripes.
: I think there are some legitimate problems spoken about on the net that
: should not be taken offense at, but simple dealt with.
: Jason
: --
NO one can doubt the fine work that CATS and engineers like Dave Haynie do to
further the Amiga.
The problem IMHO with Commodore has always been the marketing and corporate
support for the efforts of the developers and engineers that have worked so
hard.
Unfortunately, the best efforts of those folks can be TOTALLY negated by the
mismanagement of the corporate types that rule over their work!
Barry Einstein
eins...@dorsai.dorsai.org
Stephen Judd
Barry Einstein <eins...@dorsai.dorsai.org> wrote:
>Jason Freund (fre...@cis.uab.edu) wrote:
>:I know there are plenty of reasons to gripe -- I even posted my little
>
>: things go wrong -- everyone is quick to speak up. But when someone does
>: something good, we don't show enough appreciation.
>: about commodore. If everyone does, then maybe it could counter the
>: negativeness that spirals down and inward on this group.
>
>support for the efforts of the developers and engineers that have worked so
>hard.
Cripes, did you just not read the article, or what?
Here is my positive Commodore story:
To any past or present Commodore employee:
------------------------------------------
- I bought my Commodore-64 in 1984 or so, with a disk drive, for $400. In
1988 I bought an Amiga 500. Both of these computers have always worked
flawlessly, and both are still used by me frequently.
For building hardware with both physical and practical longevity:
Thank You, Commodore.
- My total investment in computer hardware over the past ten years, inculding
repairs, add-ons, etc. has probably been about $2500. In high school,
college, and especially graduate school, I have simply never had money to
throw around.
For building systems which I can afford to purchase:
Thank You, Commodore.
For building systems which I can afford to keep useful:
Thank You, Commodore.
- I have spent an incredible amount of time on your computers. Not just
running software, but exploring the machine, writing my own programs,
and otherwise just playing around. When I knew nothing, I could write
rudimentary programs, and when I knew a lot, there was always room to grow.
For building an easily accessible machine which I can use at any level:
Thank You, Commodore.
- As far as I can tell, Commodore has actually saved me money. I haven't
had to upgrade hardware and software every year or two, and I have
gotten far more use out of your machines than I have out of those "other"
machines.
For building machines which are a genuine investment, in the true sense
of the word:
[Insert Favorite Expression of Extreme Thankfulness], Commodore.
- Finally, for keeping the Bullshit to a minimum:
Thank You.
Now, after six years, I find myself thinking that it may be time to buy
another computer soon. Lo and behold, Commodore has another cool little
computer, with plenty of growth potential, which looks like a whole lot of
fun, for under $400. It's like deja-vu all over again.
So, to anyone of relevance:
*** Thank You, Commodore ***
Via con queso (go with cheese)
evetS-
Eric Balkan
> Ok -- now everyone else needs to think of something positive to say
> about commodore. If everyone does, then maybe it could counter the
> negativeness that spirals down and inward on this group.
>
> I think there are some legitimate problems spoken about on the net that
> should not be taken offense at, but simple dealt with.
>
> Jason
>
> --
My company has recently signed on as a Commodore developer and we've
gotten really A+ service from them. It's a real contrast to Atari,
where it took 3 months to get on their developer list, then they
cashed our check for the Jaguar development system a month before
they shipped anything, then they only did a partial shipment, and
what they shipped didn't work right, and they're impossible to
get on the phone and they only answer email once a week. So, I'm
glad we're now with a company (Commodore) that wants to support
its developers.
eba...@ppbbs.clark.net (Eric Balkan)
Packet Press BBS 301-294-0756