Android email and Pluto

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Received a couple of these which are blank but have both text and HTML
attachments. Normally, I'll save back the text to the body of the mail and
delete the attachments - if it's an email I need to keep. Doing this puts
the text in the headers. Never come across this before - is there a work
round?

--
*The older you get, the better you realize you were.

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <52bf0c4...@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman

(News) <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> Received a couple of these which are blank but have both
> text and HTML attachments. Normally, I'll save back the
> text to the body of the mail and delete the attachments -
> if it's an email I need to keep. Doing this puts the text
> in the headers. Never come across this before - is there
> a work round?

These are a total PITA.

My method:

Open the HTML version in Netsurf.

Display e-mail in Pluto, display headers.

Allow Edit.

Place cursor at bottom of headers and press enter a few
times to establish some blank text.

Remove attachements.

Go through headers in detail, looking for Mime boundaries,
HTML content type, references to attachments and remove the
lot.

Change whatever charset definitions are present to:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Highlight the wanted text in the NetSurf window and copy and
paste it into the blank e-mail window, below the carriage
returns already typed.

Remove all the extraneous double spacing that this
introduces.

Save e-mail and close.

Re-open and check all is OK.

Close Netsurf window.

(If all is not OK, go back to headers and look for anything
you missed that will bugger up the text that you missed last
time).

Open bottle of Whisky.

--
Russell
http://www.russell-hafter-holidays.co.uk
Russell Hafter Holidays E-mail to enquiries at our domain
Need a hotel? <http://www.hrs.com/?client=en__blue&customerId=416873103>

[Martin Bazley]

The following bytes were arranged on 14 Aug 2012 by Russell Hafter News :

> In article <52bf0c4...@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman
> (News) <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Received a couple of these which are blank but have both
> > text and HTML attachments. Normally, I'll save back the
> > text to the body of the mail and delete the attachments -
> > if it's an email I need to keep. Doing this puts the text
> > in the headers. Never come across this before - is there
> > a work round?
>
> These are a total PITA.

<obligatory troll>

> My method:

1. Use Messenger Pro.

--
__<^>__ "Did you know that polar bears stay white all year round? ...The
/ _ _ \ white colour makes them less visible to the seals and penguins
( ( |_| ) ) they hunt." - Nelson Thornes AQA-endorsed GCSE science textbook
\_> <_/ ======================= Martin Bazley ==========================

[Chris Hughes]

In message <52bf7f...@sick-of-spam.invalid>
Bob Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <551725bf...@blueyonder.co.uk>,

> Martin Bazley <martin...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> The following bytes were arranged on 14 Aug 2012 by Russell Hafter News :

>>> In article <52bf0c4...@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman
>>> (News) <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Received a couple of these which are blank but have both
>>>> text and HTML attachments. Normally, I'll save back the
>>>> text to the body of the mail and delete the attachments -
>>>> if it's an email I need to keep. Doing this puts the text
>>>> in the headers. Never come across this before - is there
>>>> a work round?
>>>
>>> These are a total PITA.

>> <obligatory troll>

>>> My method:

>> 1. Use Messenger Pro.

> <obligatory bite>

> After using Pluto for years I tried MessengerPro. For me, it was a step
> back in time to the Newsbase/TTFN days. Nothing like Pluto's flexibility.

Because Pluto is a text database (which happens to have had added an
email facility added), whereas Messenger Pro is a real email client.

Only one of the two is currently still developed, so these type of
issues that Russell and others have are going to increase.

> Used it, torn my hair out with it, gone back to Pluto.

Maybe because you were trying to force Messenger pro to be a "Pluto
2", rather then keeping Pluto as your archive and setting up Messenger
Pro as intended.

But its your choice and you have to live with the problems.

> Bob.



--
Chris Hughes

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <52bf7f...@sick-of-spam.invalid>, Bob Latham

<b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

> After using Pluto for years I tried MessengerPro. For me, it was a step
> back in time to the Newsbase/TTFN days. Nothing like Pluto's flexibility.

> Used it, torn my hair out with it, gone back to Pluto.

FWIW I continue to happily use Pluto for most of my email/news.

However on my Linux box I have also started using MessengerPro, and am
quite happy with that as well.

But then, I'd lost most of my hair some time ago, anyway! :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

[Tim Hill]

In article <920082bf...@o2.co.uk>,
Chris Hughes <ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

> Because Pluto is a text database (which happens to have had added an
> email facility added), whereas Messenger Pro is a real email client.

[Snip]

Pluto enables you to operate automated mailing lists, it manages
distribution list subscriptions, and can perform Email forwarding. As
well as all its textual database capabilities.

MPro can handle fancy text emails. Meh.

M Pro =/= Pluto.

That MPro is currently being developed is a bonus perhaps, but if we can
hope for 000s more RISC OS users (on lots of new Arm devices) there have
been hints that Pluto could still rise again.

--
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Share in a better energy supplier: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg
* Share in cheaper ethical telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/

... "God send everyone their heart's desire !" Much Ado, Act iii, Sc.4

[Chris Hughes]

In message <52bf8c...@sick-of-spam.invalid>

Bob Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <920082bf...@o2.co.uk>,
> Chris Hughes <ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:

>> In message <52bf7f...@sick-of-spam.invalid>
>> Bob Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:


>>> After using Pluto for years I tried MessengerPro. For me, it was a
>>> step back in time to the Newsbase/TTFN days. Nothing like Pluto's
>>> flexibility.

>> Because Pluto is a text database (which happens to have had added an
>> email facility added), whereas Messenger Pro is a real email client.

> Are you suggesting Pluto isn't?

Read what I said, not your imaged version.

>> Only one of the two is currently still developed,

> Really? Are you sure? I wouldn't be if I were you.

Yes. Unless you are telling us Pluo is having major updates done, now
and are actually being release. Recompiling for ARmv7 is not a major
update.

>> so these type of issues that Russell and others have are going to
>> increase.

> Could be.

>>> Used it, torn my hair out with it, gone back to Pluto.

>> Maybe because you were trying to force Messenger pro to be a "Pluto 2",
>> rather then keeping Pluto as your archive and setting up Messenger Pro
>> as intended.

> It can't organise things nicely, simple as that.

Because Pluto is a different beast, its designed as a text database
rather then as a email client.

Messenger Pro can organise things very nicely thank you. But not in
the same way.

>> But its your choice and you have to live with the problems.

> Indeed, but I've been spoilt by something better.

Is it really "better" if it has all these reported issues.

--
Chris Hughes

[Chris Hughes]

In message <52bf91...@invalid.org.uk>

Tim Hill <t...@invalid.org.uk> wrote:

> In article <920082bf...@o2.co.uk>,
> Chris Hughes <ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:

> [Snip]

>> Because Pluto is a text database (which happens to have had added an
>> email facility added), whereas Messenger Pro is a real email client.

> [Snip]

> Pluto enables you to operate automated mailing lists, it manages
> distribution list subscriptions, and can perform Email forwarding. As
> well as all its textual database capabilities.

> MPro can handle fancy text emails. Meh.

Messenger pro (RISC OS) does email forwarding, distribution lists, it
does not run mailing lists. But obviously you can filter mailing list
posts.

> M Pro =/= Pluto.

> That MPro is currently being developed is a bonus perhaps, but if we can
> hope for 000s more RISC OS users (on lots of new Arm devices) there have
> been hints that Pluto could still rise again.

So you think somehow we are going to get thousands of new RISC OS
users? It would need major improvements to the OS to bring it up to
date and the applications overall to stand any real chance. Where is
the money coming from?



--
Chris Hughes

[M Harding]

In article <2bc6bcbf...@o2.co.uk>,

Chris Hughes <ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <52bf8c...@sick-of-spam.invalid>
> Bob Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

> > In article <920082bf...@o2.co.uk>,
> > Chris Hughes <ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
> >> In message <52bf7f...@sick-of-spam.invalid>
> >> Bob Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:


> >>> After using Pluto for years I tried MessengerPro. For me, it
> >>> was a step back in time to the Newsbase/TTFN days. Nothing like
> >>> Pluto's flexibility.

> >> Because Pluto is a text database (which happens to have had
> >> added an email facility added), whereas Messenger Pro is a real
> >> email client.

> > Are you suggesting Pluto isn't?

> Read what I said, not your imaged version.

The slanging matches concerning the merits/demerits of Pluto and MPro
are becoming tiresome. It's surely only been a couple of months since
the last spat.

Let's face it, I for one have Pluto arranged as I want it and all my
email archives are in its innards. If I wanted to leave them there as
archives and start afresh I'd switch over my VRPC to Windows and
Thunderbird - in fact I already have one Thunderbird account on
another computer to reroute emails to if they're beyond RISC OS
capabilities.

So I'm still using Pluto on a VRPC. Can someone please confirm or
deny my suspicion that although I have AVG/free virus screening in
place on this WindowsXP computer, that's likely to let through
viruses and other nasties in emails arriving via Pluto (and that this
would also apply to MPro)? Advice please.

Michael Harding
Rev. Preb. M.D. Harding ris...@mdharding.org.uk

[John]

In article <52bfc405...@mdharding.org.uk>, M Harding
<ris...@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:

<snip>

> So I'm still using Pluto on a VRPC. Can someone please
> confirm or deny my suspicion that although I have
> AVG/free virus screening in place on this WindowsXP
> computer, that's likely to let through viruses and other
> nasties in emails arriving via Pluto (and that this would
> also apply to MPro)? Advice please.

I'm pretty sure that AVG is doing the business. I say this
because I used to get a message from AVG at the bottom of
my incoming e-mails saying that they had been scanned by
AVG (assuming my memory isn't playing me up). There is an
option to turn off the message without affecting the
functionality. I'm also fairly sure that the outgoing
e-mails are ignored.

I've just fired up a PC that I've fixed for a friend and in
Tools > Advanced Settings > E-mail Protection > E-mail
Scanner > Certification it gives you the option I've just
mentioned (and more). It's only for incoming e-mails.

John

--
John
new...@blueyonder.co.uk
j dot mccartney atte blueyonder dot co dot uk

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts]

M Harding <ris...@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:

> So I'm still using Pluto on a VRPC. Can someone please confirm or deny my
> suspicion that although I have AVG/free virus screening in place on this
> WindowsXP computer, that's likely to let through viruses and other nasties
> in emails arriving via Pluto (and that this would also apply to MPro)?
> Advice please.

I think you'd need to try it and see... As I understand it, VRPC internet
access works by asking the underlying windows internet access routines
('socket services') to do the work for them.

A/v software's email interception works, I think, by running a process on
Windows to which all commands (that you think you're sending to an ISP's
mail server) are sent, and it sends them out to the ISP's mail server in
turn. Responses to the commands, and the incoming data, are collected by
this process, which then feeds them back to the original caller, whether
that's a Windows email client or a VRPC one. This special mechanism needs
to be turned on, which is why the a/v software will have a config option for
it.

If it works like that I'd expect incoming mail (and perhaps outgoing mail
too) to be scanned by AVG no matter what client you're using, on Windows or
RO under VRPC.

--
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Email sent to my from-address will be deleted. Instead, please reply
to newsre...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk replacing "aaa" by "284".

[M Harding]

In article <52bfc520...@blueyonder.co.uk>,

But is that only applicable to Windows emailers, not VRPC? I ask this
because last week I received a suspicious email from an acquaintance
inviting me to click on a URL - which I didn't - and he confirmed he
hadn't sent it.

Anyway I'll explore AVG tools - thank you.

[Chris Hughes]

In message <52bfc405...@mdharding.org.uk>

M Harding <ris...@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:

> In article <2bc6bcbf...@o2.co.uk>,
> Chris Hughes <ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <52bf8c...@sick-of-spam.invalid>
>> Bob Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

>>> In article <920082bf...@o2.co.uk>,
>>> Chris Hughes <ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <52bf7f...@sick-of-spam.invalid>
>>>> Bob Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:


>>>>> After using Pluto for years I tried MessengerPro. For me, it
>>>>> was a step back in time to the Newsbase/TTFN days. Nothing like
>>>>> Pluto's flexibility.

>>>> Because Pluto is a text database (which happens to have had
>>>> added an email facility added), whereas Messenger Pro is a real
>>>> email client.

>>> Are you suggesting Pluto isn't?

>> Read what I said, not your imaged version.

> The slanging matches concerning the merits/demerits of Pluto and MPro
> are becoming tiresome. It's surely only been a couple of months since
> the last spat.

Its not a slanging match as far as I am concerned.

> Let's face it, I for one have Pluto arranged as I want it and all my
> email archives are in its innards. If I wanted to leave them there as
> archives and start afresh I'd switch over my VRPC to Windows and
> Thunderbird - in fact I already have one Thunderbird account on
> another computer to reroute emails to if they're beyond RISC OS
> capabilities.

Makes good sense

> So I'm still using Pluto on a VRPC. Can someone please confirm or
> deny my suspicion that although I have AVG/free virus screening in
> place on this WindowsXP computer, that's likely to let through
> viruses and other nasties in emails arriving via Pluto (and that this
> would also apply to MPro)? Advice please.

Interesting and good question.

AVG would not know anything about Pluto or any other RISC OS email
client for that matter. But since the VRPC files are really just
Windows files at end of the day they would get scanned by AVG, when
you did your regular or ad-hoc scan of the computer.



--
Chris Hughes

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts]

Chris Hughes <ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:

> AVG would not know anything about Pluto or any other RISC OS email client
> for that matter.

But POP3 trafic to & from the ISP's server is POP3 traffic, no matter which
OS originates it.

> But since the VRPC files are really just Windows files at end of the day
> they would get scanned by AVG, when you did your regular or ad-hoc scan of
> the computer.

Not much use if the data's stored compressed or squashed or whatever - as a
Windows-based a/v app won't know how to reconstitute it.

[Chris Newman]

In article <mpro.m8th6a...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk.invalid>,

Jeremy Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:
> Chris Hughes <ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:

> > AVG would not know anything about Pluto or any other RISC OS email client
> > for that matter.

> But POP3 trafic to & from the ISP's server is POP3 traffic, no matter which
> OS originates it.

> > But since the VRPC files are really just Windows files at end of the day
> > they would get scanned by AVG, when you did your regular or ad-hoc scan of
> > the computer.

When I had some problems with Virtual Acorn someone suggested AVG could
somtimes interfere with it so I moved over to Microsoft Security Essentials.
That stopped the VA problems.
I've had a quick look at 'Settings' & found no mention of email traffic.
Anyone know if MSE monitors POP3 traffic?

Regards,

--
Chris Newman

[Brian Jordan]

In message <52bfc405...@mdharding.org.uk>
M Harding <ris...@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:

[snip]

> So I'm still using Pluto on a VRPC. Can someone please confirm or
> deny my suspicion that although I have AVG/free virus screening in
> place on this WindowsXP computer, that's likely to let through
> viruses and other nasties in emails arriving via Pluto (and that this
> would also apply to MPro)? Advice please.

I think a look at your email headers might reveal the answer. I use
Avast here rather than AVG and emails fetched by Netfetch all (whether
stored in Messenger or Pluto) contain the following in the headers:

X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 120815-3, 15/08/2012), Inbound message
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean

Furthermore on rare occasions when Avast has identified emails being
loaded via Netfetch as having dangerous attachments it has sounded an
audio warning and a warning message has appeared on top of the VA
screen inviting me to deal with the suspect mail.

I doubt if the message apparently from a friend which you mention in
another post would be flagged if it wasn't actually carrying a virus
so as always vigilance is needed.


--

Brian Jordan
Virtual RPC-AdjustSA
RISC OS 6.20

[spampling]

In article <52bfc405...@mdharding.org.uk>,
M Harding <ris...@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:

> Can someone please confirm or
> deny my suspicion that although I have AVG/free virus screening in
> place on this WindowsXP computer, that's likely to let through
> viruses and other nasties in emails arriving via Pluto (and that this
> would also apply to MPro)? Advice please.

The attachments are just rubbish data as far as the RISC OS side is
concerned, however if you transferred the rubbish data to the windows side
and then ran it from there, that's when the problems occur.

All the wifes mail comes into the RPC that does the mail fetch. She then
looks at any attachment with a view on whether to transfer elsewhere.
Anything she is unsure of is where she consults the nearest IT savvie
person (when I get home)

--

Steve Pampling

[Richard Travers]

In article <52bfc405...@mdharding.org.uk>,
M Harding <ris...@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:

> The slanging matches concerning the merits/demerits of Pluto and MPro
> are becoming tiresome. It's surely only been a couple of months since
> the last spat.

It is indeed tiresome.

> Let's face it, I for one have Pluto arranged as I want it and all my
> email archives are in its innards. If I wanted to leave them there as
> archives and start afresh I'd switch over my VRPC to Windows and
> Thunderbird - in fact I already have one Thunderbird account on
> another computer to reroute emails to if they're beyond RISC OS
> capabilities.

Absolutely! I, too, am used to Pluto and have it set up as required. Any
problem emails are easily passed over to Thunderbird on the PC side. Having
to learn and get used to another email program, however marvellous it might
claim to be, is not a trivial matter. It would be a complete pain and is
unnecessary.

> So I'm still using Pluto on a VRPC. Can someone please confirm or
> deny my suspicion that although I have AVG/free virus screening in
> place on this WindowsXP computer, that's likely to let through
> viruses and other nasties in emails arriving via Pluto (and that this
> would also apply to MPro)? Advice please.

I am currently getting a series of emails with the traditional 'click on the
attachment to see ...', type of lure. Some contain a virus in the (html)
attachment, others, by the looks of it, redirect to a web site where, no
doubt, something unpleast awaits. Delving into the attachments using !Edit
(no doubt someone will now tell me I should be using !Zap or one of the
other 'superedits') I am pleased to see that AVG is identifying and dealing
with those attachments that actually carry viruses.

So, in short, it is at least stopping viruses getting in.

R.

--

Richard Travers
rich...@uwclub.net

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <52c013fb3...@uwclub.net>, Richard

Travers <rich...@uwclub.net> wrote:

> > Let's face it, I for one have Pluto arranged as I want
> > it and all my email archives are in its innards. If I
> > wanted to leave them there as archives and start afresh
> > I'd switch over my VRPC to Windows and Thunderbird - in
> > fact I already have one Thunderbird account on another
> > computer to reroute emails to if they're beyond RISC OS
> > capabilities.

> Absolutely! I, too, am used to Pluto and have it set up
> as required. Any problem emails are easily passed over to
> Thunderbird on the PC side. Having to learn and get used
> to another email program, however marvellous it might
> claim to be, is not a trivial matter. It would be a
> complete pain and is unnecessary.

Quite.

The time taken to deal with PITA format e-mails in Pluto is
insignificant with the time that would be required to learn
to use a different e-mail program properly.

Then there would be the time taken to transfer the address
book and all the e-mails currently stored.

I do use the windows version of Claws Mail on my Netbook,
and while I find it less bad than Thunderbird, which I
thought awful, I still dislike it because of its
inflexibility, and find many of its aspects both rigid and
incomprehensible.

It cannot import Pluto's address book (does not understand
CSV!) and I cannot find a way to get it to import raw
e-mails from Pluto either. And the system for setting up
filters is totally baffling.

[John]

In article <52bfca28...@mdharding.org.uk>, M Harding

<ris...@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:
> In article <52bfc520...@blueyonder.co.uk>, John
> <new...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <52bfc405...@mdharding.org.uk>, M
> > Harding <ris...@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:

> > <snip>

> > I'm pretty sure that AVG is doing the business. I say
> > this because I used to get a message from AVG at the
> > bottom of my incoming e-mails saying that they had been
> > scanned by AVG (assuming my memory isn't playing me
> > up). There is an option to turn off the message without
> > affecting the functionality. I'm also fairly sure that
> > the outgoing e-mails are ignored.

I omitted to say that this was in Pluto running under VRPC
- sorry!

> > I've just fired up a PC that I've fixed for a friend
> > and in Tools > Advanced Settings > E-mail Protection >
> > E-mail Scanner > Certification it gives you the option
> > I've just mentioned (and more). It's only for incoming
> > e-mails.

> But is that only applicable to Windows emailers, not
> VRPC? I ask this because last week I received a
> suspicious email from an acquaintance inviting me to
> click on a URL - which I didn't - and he confirmed he
> hadn't sent it.

No, it works for e-mail under VRPC or I wouldn't have had
the message at the bottom of incoming e-mails in Pluto.

> Anyway I'll explore AVG tools - thank you.

You're welcome, Michael.

[Tim Hill]

In article <fb37bcbf...@o2.co.uk>, Chris Hughes

<ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <52bf91...@invalid.org.uk> Tim Hill <t...@invalid.org.uk>
> wrote:

> > In article <920082bf...@o2.co.uk>, Chris Hughes
> > <ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:

> > [Snip]

> >> Because Pluto is a text database (which happens to have had added an
> >> email facility added), whereas Messenger Pro is a real email client.

> > [Snip]

> > Pluto enables you to operate automated mailing lists, it manages
> > distribution list subscriptions, and can perform Email forwarding. As
> > well as all its textual database capabilities.

> > MPro can handle fancy text emails. Meh.

> Messenger pro (RISC OS) does email forwarding, distribution lists,

So if I send SIGNON it will add me to a distribution list?!

> it
> does not run mailing lists.

No. A Showstopper here.

> But obviously you can filter mailing list
> posts.

I should hope so!

> > M Pro =/= Pluto.

> > That MPro is currently being developed is a bonus perhaps, but if we
> > can hope for 000s more RISC OS users (on lots of new Arm devices)
> > there have been hints that Pluto could still rise again.

> So you think somehow we are going to get thousands of new RISC OS
> users?

Not really. The community isn't as friendly as it could be, and lacks a
coherent portal.

> It would need major improvements to the OS to bring it up to
> date and the applications overall to stand any real chance. Where is
> the money coming from?

Good question and it does apply, though I think the subject was Pluto and
not a perceived outdatedness of the entire RISC OS environment.

--
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Share in a better energy supplier: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg
* Share in cheaper ethical telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/

... "What is decreed must be" Twelfth N, Act i, Sc.5

[Chris Hughes]

In message <52c057...@invalid.org.uk>

Tim Hill <t...@invalid.org.uk> wrote:

> In article <fb37bcbf...@o2.co.uk>, Chris Hughes
> <ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <52bf91...@invalid.org.uk> Tim Hill <t...@invalid.org.uk>
>> wrote:

>>> In article <920082bf...@o2.co.uk>, Chris Hughes
>>> <ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:

>>> [Snip]

>>>> Because Pluto is a text database (which happens to have had added an
>>>> email facility added), whereas Messenger Pro is a real email client.

>>> [Snip]

>>> Pluto enables you to operate automated mailing lists, it manages
>>> distribution list subscriptions, and can perform Email forwarding. As
>>> well as all its textual database capabilities.

>>> MPro can handle fancy text emails. Meh.

>> Messenger pro (RISC OS) does email forwarding, distribution lists,

> So if I send SIGNON it will add me to a distribution list?!

No, but it does have distribution lists. Distributions list does not
necessary mean automated Mailing list.

>> it
>> does not run mailing lists.

> No. A Showstopper here.

As a matter of interest why? There are plenty of free distribution
mailing list servers around like freelists, etc. so not really a show
stopper, even some hosting companies provide x number of automated
mailing lists within your hosting package.

>> But obviously you can filter mailing list
>> posts.

> I should hope so!

>>> M Pro =/= Pluto.

>>> That MPro is currently being developed is a bonus perhaps, but if we
>>> can hope for 000s more RISC OS users (on lots of new Arm devices)
>>> there have been hints that Pluto could still rise again.

>> So you think somehow we are going to get thousands of new RISC OS
>> users?

> Not really. The community isn't as friendly as it could be, and lacks a
> coherent portal.

It would be nice if we could get thousands more users, but sadly it
seems unlikely in reality. Without OS enhancements, including the
ability to be used on a Tablet - which is the way the market is
moving.....

Pluto's best bet would be, to made Shareware or similar. But that
would be up to to JD.

>> It would need major improvements to the OS to bring it up to
>> date and the applications overall to stand any real chance. Where is
>> the money coming from?

> Good question and it does apply, though I think the subject was Pluto and
> not a perceived outdatedness of the entire RISC OS environment.

They are connected, to get thousads more users you need a good reason
for them to move/swap to another OS. Sadly as the OS stands we would
need major changes to it to give it any chance. Nice though the idea
is.

--
Chris Hughes

[Brian Carroll]

In article <804c89c0...@o2.co.uk>, Chris Hughes
<ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:

[ ... ]

> It would be nice if we could get thousands more users, but

> sadly it seems unlikely in reality. .....

Isn't that the objective of the current work by ROOL on getting
RISC OS working on theRaspberry Pi? Ie, at least some school
teachers will prefer that OS to Linux for producing a new wave of
computer scientists.

Brian.

--
______________________________________________________________

Brian Carroll, Ripon, North Yorkshire, UK
______________________________________________________________

[Stuart]

In article <52c09b59b3...@argonet.co.uk>,

Brian Carroll <bric-...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> Isn't that the objective of the current work by ROOL on getting
> RISC OS working on theRaspberry Pi? Ie, at least some school
> teachers will prefer that OS to Linux for producing a new wave of
> computer scientists.

I was talking to an old collegue of mine on Tuesday, Paul Marshall, and he
is interested in getting a Rasberry Pi and doing some RO programming again.

Although he programs for Windows he isn't interested in Linux

http://www.darkwood.demon.co.uk/

http://www.darkwood.demon.co.uk/RiscOS/AcornSet1.html

--
Stuart Winsor

Only plain text for emails
http://www.asciiribbon.org

[Alan Dawes]

In article <52c03878...@blueyonder.co.uk>,

John <new...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> > But is that only applicable to Windows emailers, not
> > VRPC? I ask this because last week I received a
> > suspicious email from an acquaintance inviting me to
> > click on a URL - which I didn't - and he confirmed he
> > hadn't sent it.

> No, it works for e-mail under VRPC or I wouldn't have had
> the message at the bottom of incoming e-mails in Pluto.

But on a RiscPC which obviously does not have AVG on it, I regularly have
incoming emails from friends who use PCs with AVG on them with messages
like:

" No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/5037 - Release Date: 05/31/12"

appended to the end of the email. I assumed that it was the senders virus
checker which added this.

Alan

--
alan....@argonet.co.uk
alan....@riscos.org
Using an Acorn RiscPC

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts]

Chris Hughes <ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:

> There are plenty of free distribution mailing list servers around like
> freelists, etc. so not really a show stopper, even some hosting companies
> provide x number of automated mailing lists within your hosting package.

Plenty? Are there? I was looking at this a couple of days ago and found
hardly any. Freelists is only suitable for technology-related subjects.

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts]

Alan Dawes <alan....@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> I assumed that it was the senders virus checker which added this.

Of course. But that doesn't mean one shouldn't oneself also check incoming
mails. If you're making the point that people need to be sure whether their
own a/v app did the checking, looking at the

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database: 2425/5037 - Release Date: 05/31/12

version numbers might help. Eg a mail sent a couple of days ago one might
exepct to have been checked by AVG using the definitions of two days ago, by
the sender's machine.

If that mail wasn't received by the recipient until a few days later it
should be easy to see if the recipient's AVG has made a more recent check.

[M Harding]

In article <mpro.m8whgj...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk.invalid>,

Jeremy Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk>
wrote:

> Alan Dawes <alan....@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> > I assumed that it was the senders virus checker which added this.

> Of course. But that doesn't mean one shouldn't oneself also check

> incoming mails. [ . . . ]

True. The email I recently received - a spurious one which the person
hadn't sent - had a claim in it about having been checked by AVG.

I looked at the innards of AVG and its statistics claim that it's
checked x emails in the last month or so, and I'd guess this is about
the right number for the emails I've received. Since I have no
emailing activated on the Windows side - only Pluto on VRPC - this is
reassuring.

Next question. That applies to emails. But does it also cover these
NewsGroup items? Or doesn't that matter, since they're restricted to
text?

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts]

M Harding <ris...@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:

> But does it also cover these NewsGroup items?

No as they are not fetched by POP3 traffic.

> Or doesn't that matter, since they're restricted to text?

It does matter for 'binary' newsgroups; I don't know how one would scan
them. I've never used abinary news server though.

[John]

In article <52c0a871b8...@argonet.co.uk>, Alan Dawes

<alan....@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <52c03878...@blueyonder.co.uk>, John
> <new...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> > > But is that only applicable to Windows emailers, not
> > > VRPC? I ask this because last week I received a
> > > suspicious email from an acquaintance inviting me to
> > > click on a URL - which I didn't - and he confirmed he
> > > hadn't sent it.

> > No, it works for e-mail under VRPC or I wouldn't have
> > had the message at the bottom of incoming e-mails in
> > Pluto.

> But on a RiscPC which obviously does not have AVG on it,
> I regularly have incoming emails from friends who use PCs
> with AVG on them with messages like:

I stopped getting the messages when I told AVG not to add
verification to incoming e-mails.

> " No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG -
> www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2171 / Virus Database:
> 2425/5037 - Release Date: 05/31/12"

> appended to the end of the email. I assumed that it was
> the senders virus checker which added this.

This might well be the case but Michael can check the
behaviour on his set-up by deselecting verification in AVG
(or selecting it if it is already on) and looking for a
change in what Pluto displays.

[M Harding]

In article <52c0be0a...@blueyonder.co.uk>,

I'll try that.

[M Harding]

In article <52c0d21d...@mdharding.org.uk>,

It was on and I switched it off but it hasn't changed anything.

[Tim Hill]

In article <804c89c0...@o2.co.uk>, Chris Hughes

<ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <52c057...@invalid.org.uk> Tim Hill <t...@invalid.org.uk>
> wrote:

[Snip]

> > So if I send SIGNON it will add me to a distribution list?!

> No, but it does have distribution lists. Distributions list does not
> necessary mean automated Mailing list.

In that case such distribution lists are little more than an address book
subset or category, or even a text file with addresses in it which has to
be edited manually.

> >> it does not run mailing lists.

> > No. A Showstopper here.

> As a matter of interest why?

Because I host several distribution lists and mailing lists people can
subscribe to and over which I have 100% control.

> There are plenty of free distribution
> mailing list servers around like freelists, etc. so not really a show
> stopper, even some hosting companies provide x number of automated
> mailing lists within your hosting package.

That is true but it would involve a considerable chunk of time I don't
have to migrate everyone across. I also have the Data Protection Act to
consider and have little trust in such online services when similar
enterprises have too often pulled the rug from under their users.

[Snip]

> It would be nice if we could get thousands more users, but sadly it
> seems unlikely in reality. Without OS enhancements, including the
> ability to be used on a Tablet - which is the way the market is
> moving.....

Is it? I use a tablet for recreation at work (!) but wouldn't want to use
it for the web work I do at home.

Though perhaps I should try and build my next web site chunk on my
Android tablet and see how I get on*. The idea of marking up HTML without
decent cursor control (fat fingers) will mean I will /have/ to use a
mouse. Or I will probably chuck the tablet 'out a window'. having to use
half a 10" screen (keyboard takes the rest) could be a bit of a culture
shock from using two 17" and one 22" screens while I'm editing, the
latter with multiple windows open.

> Pluto's best bet would be, to made Shareware or similar. But that
> would be up to to JD.

Indeed.

[Snip]

> They are connected, to get thousads more users you need a good reason
> for them to move/swap to another OS.

"It isn't Windows Eight with Metro" ought to be its slogan. ;-)

> Sadly as the OS stands we would
> need major changes to it to give it any chance. Nice though the idea is.

I think the point is that the seven-year-old users the Raspi will attract
won't be thinking in those terms. But they will eventually realise what
is missing and add it. :-)

Funny that none of those essential major OS changes you allude to don't
seem to be mentioned here: http://www.riscos.info/index.php/Wishlist

Is there another wish list somewhere?

T.

* Not really.

--
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Share in a better energy supplier: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg
* Share in cheaper ethical telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/

... "Thy eternal summer shall not fade" Sonnet 18

[Stuart]

In article <mpro.m8wlyc...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk.invalid>,

Jeremy Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk>
wrote:

> It does matter for 'binary' newsgroups; I don't know how one would scan
> them. I've never used abinary news server though.

I've used alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking

but since I'm using RISC OS I'm not worried about it.

[Tim Hill]

In article <mpro.m8whl5...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk.invalid>, Jeremy

Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:

> Chris Hughes <ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:

> > There are plenty of free distribution mailing list servers around
> > like freelists, etc. so not really a show stopper, even some hosting
> > companies provide x number of automated mailing lists within your
> > hosting package.

> Plenty? Are there? I was looking at this a couple of days ago and
> found hardly any. Freelists is only suitable for technology-related
> subjects.

I wasn't going to bite at the 'plenty' either - because it's so oft
repeated as urban truth - but I looked recently too and baulked at
Freelists' not-as-free-as-you-think-because-its-tech-only.

Mostly because I don't leave Myonix up 24/7, I was looking for a list
provider which could maybe have a web discussion group and include events
and a calendar too. Unfortunately, the only free solution I found
acceptable was Facebook: 'everybody' seems to use Facebook. Nobody uses
only Google+. My G+ friends are active on FB but they have one massive
disadvantage: some people simply won't do facebook because it can 'suck
your life and time away'. And its a massive step away from an email
distribution list. A culture shock some won't endure. They are fools but
I cater for their foibles with an email 'newsletter'.

Facebook does 'Groups' and 'New' Google groups is a possibility
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!creategroup though javascript is
mandatory at their webterface; as is their message scanning and targeted
advertising. But these are email distribution lists which also have a web
interface for discussions.

From RISC OS, hosting seems to be the best option if you simply want the
ability to send to a regular 'newsletter' to an email list. Pluto has the
distinct advantage of allowing people to manage their own subscriptions
to that list.

T

--
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Share in a better energy supplier: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg
* Share in cheaper ethical telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/

... "He that filches from me my good name, robs me of that which not enriches him, but makes me poor indeed" Othello, Act iii, Sc.3

[Chris Hughes]

In message <52c140...@invalid.org.uk>

Tim Hill <t...@invalid.org.uk> wrote:

> In article <804c89c0...@o2.co.uk>, Chris Hughes
> <ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <52c057...@invalid.org.uk> Tim Hill <t...@invalid.org.uk>
>> wrote:

> [Snip]

>>>> it does not run mailing lists.

>>> No. A Showstopper here.

>> As a matter of interest why?

> Because I host several distribution lists and mailing lists people can
> subscribe to and over which I have 100% control.

>> There are plenty of free distribution
>> mailing list servers around like freelists, etc. so not really a show
>> stopper, even some hosting companies provide x number of automated
>> mailing lists within your hosting package.

> That is true but it would involve a considerable chunk of time I don't
> have to migrate everyone across. I also have the Data Protection Act to
> consider and have little trust in such online services when similar
> enterprises have too often pulled the rug from under their users.

Ok, I can understand your point of view.

> [Snip]

>> It would be nice if we could get thousands more users, but sadly it
>> seems unlikely in reality. Without OS enhancements, including the
>> ability to be used on a Tablet - which is the way the market is
>> moving.....

> Is it? I use a tablet for recreation at work (!) but wouldn't want to use
> it for the web work I do at home.

> Though perhaps I should try and build my next web site chunk on my
> Android tablet and see how I get on*. The idea of marking up HTML without
> decent cursor control (fat fingers) will mean I will /have/ to use a
> mouse. Or I will probably chuck the tablet 'out a window'. having to use
> half a 10" screen (keyboard takes the rest) could be a bit of a culture
> shock from using two 17" and one 22" screens while I'm editing, the
> latter with multiple windows open.

Personally I would tend to agree with you, but you listen to the
"young ones" at work, who tell you we are not with it, and we should
all have smartphones and tablets, etc.. - These are the potential
future users, the Pi for the even younger, *might* help

>> They are connected, to get thousads more users you need a good reason
>> for them to move/swap to another OS.

> "It isn't Windows Eight with Metro" ought to be its slogan. ;-)

>> Sadly as the OS stands we would
>> need major changes to it to give it any chance. Nice though the idea is.

> I think the point is that the seven-year-old users the Raspi will attract
> won't be thinking in those terms. But they will eventually realise what
> is missing and add it. :-)

I understand your point, but have doubts of the reality of what will
happen.

> Funny that none of those essential major OS changes you allude to don't
> seem to be mentioned here: http://www.riscos.info/index.php/Wishlist

That is a pretty old list from the late Paul Vigay, and they are
primarily application ones.

There is some sort of list on the ROOL website. Mostly the last time I
lokked (some time ago now), bug fixes and a couple of enhancements
that would be a welcome start. :-)


--
Chris Hughes

[Chris Hughes]

In message <52c14a...@invalid.org.uk>

Tim Hill <t...@invalid.org.uk> wrote:

> In article <mpro.m8whl5...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk.invalid>, Jeremy
> Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:
>> Chris Hughes <ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:

>>> There are plenty of free distribution mailing list servers around
>>> like freelists, etc. so not really a show stopper, even some hosting
>>> companies provide x number of automated mailing lists within your
>>> hosting package.

>> Plenty? Are there? I was looking at this a couple of days ago and
>> found hardly any. Freelists is only suitable for technology-related
>> subjects.

> I wasn't going to bite at the 'plenty' either - because it's so oft
> repeated as urban truth - but I looked recently too and baulked at
> Freelists' not-as-free-as-you-think-because-its-tech-only.

I have to admit I was not aware freelists was "tech only".

> Mostly because I don't leave Myonix up 24/7, I was looking for a list
> provider which could maybe have a web discussion group and include events
> and a calendar too. Unfortunately, the only free solution I found
> acceptable was Facebook: 'everybody' seems to use Facebook. Nobody uses
> only Google+. My G+ friends are active on FB but they have one massive
> disadvantage: some people simply won't do facebook because it can 'suck
> your life and time away'. And its a massive step away from an email
> distribution list. A culture shock some won't endure. They are fools but
> I cater for their foibles with an email 'newsletter'.

I personally will not touch facebook with a barge pole. I had been
thinking of things like Google Groups, Yahoo groups, amongst others.

> From RISC OS, hosting seems to be the best option if you simply want the
> ability to send to a regular 'newsletter' to an email list. Pluto has the
> distinct advantage of allowing people to manage their own subscriptions
> to that list.

You can unsubscribe at anytime you want froma Google or Yahoo group
and can change various setting them seleves without intervention from
the list owner/moderator. I a feeling with are talking at cross
purposes here. ;-)




--
Chris Hughes

[Steve Fryatt]

On 18 Aug, Tim Hill wrote in message
<52c14a...@invalid.org.uk>:

> Pluto has the distinct advantage of allowing people to manage their own
> subscriptions to that list.

The main problem that I have with people putting Pluto forward as a list
manager is that, in my experience of subscribing to the Pluto-run
Archive-on-Line, it does it so *badly*.

It seems to get headers subtly wrong compared to 'proper' maillist systems,
and doesn't insert the conventional list identifier headers so *reliable*
filtering is difficult for subscribers. I filter A-o-L email on Return-Path
instead of the simpler List-ID or Mailing-List that 'real' systems insert:
it seems to work, but is far from ideal.

More seriously, it seems that the only way a list owner (eg. Tim, his lists)
can post to a Pluto-run list is to hijack someone else's post and bork the
threading and quoting. So instead of getting

> > > How Are You?
> >
> > I'm OK. You?
>
> Yes, not bad.

you get some abomination like

> > How Are You?
>
> > ] I'm OK. You?
>
> Yes, not bad.

Given how often A-o-L subscribers have asked for this to be fixed and had
the requests fall on deaf ears, it seems that it must be a fundamental
limitation of Pluto.

--
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England

http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/

[Alan Wrigley]

Tim Hill <t...@invalid.org.uk> wrote:

> some people simply won't do facebook because it can 'suck
> your life and time away'.

I wonder if these same people refuse to have friends in real life because
they can 'suck your life and time away'?

The kind of people who are weak-willed enough to let Farcebook suck their
life away are going to find something else to suck it away sooner or later.

Alan

--
RISC OS - you know it makes cents

[Stuart]

In article <e19c98c1...@o2.co.uk>,

Chris Hughes <ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:

> Personally I would tend to agree with you, but you listen to the
> "young ones" at work, who tell you we are not with it, and we should
> all have smartphones and tablets, etc..

Till the next gadget comes along <g>

[Vince M Hudd]

Steve Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:

> The main problem that I have with people putting Pluto forward as a list
> manager is that, in my experience of subscribing to the Pluto-run
> Archive-on-Line, it does it so *badly*.

> It seems to get headers subtly wrong compared to 'proper' maillist
> systems, and doesn't insert the conventional list identifier headers so
> *reliable* filtering is difficult for subscribers. I filter A-o-L email
> on Return-Path instead of the simpler List-ID or Mailing-List that 'real'
> systems insert: it seems to work, but is far from ideal.

But that is something that could be easily fixed if someone with access to
the source code is willing to do so.

I believe there's a chap who goes by the name of Jonathan Duddington who has
access to the source code, and who was recently reported as looking at the
possibility of (at the very least) recompiling it for ARMv6/v7
compatibility. Perhaps, if and when something comes of that, a polite
request might see minor, easily fixed issues like the above dealt with.

Meanwhile, if memory serves (and I'm *very* sure it does in this case) Pluto
provides the facility to add extra headers by encoding them in some way in
the sig file. Therefore, if anyone who runs a list using Pluto has a sig
file set up specifically for that list, it seems likely that it could be
used to insert convential identifiers in the headers.

> More seriously, it seems that the only way a list owner (eg. Tim, his
> lists) can post to a Pluto-run list is to hijack someone else's post and
> bork the threading and quoting.

[Referring to list owners using "] some text" to add their own comments.]

That's incorrect.

The truth is that there is no reason for list owners to do that - they can
be a subscriber to the list themselves and read/reply to it the same way as
anyone else - just as I did when I used Pluto to run the WebChange mailing
list, some time in the last century. Those that use the above method do so
out of choice.

I agree that the best (polite) description of that approach is as an
abomination, though.

> Given how often A-o-L subscribers have asked for this to be fixed and had
> the requests fall on deaf ears, it seems that it must be a fundamental
> limitation of Pluto.

No, it's a fundemental limitation of the list owner to adopt a better
approach. I get the feeling Keith does it because it's what Jonathan did
when he ran the original Pluto mailing list using Pluto.

So, both of the failings you give of Pluto as a list server are easily
solved now*, if list owners choose to do so. If they don't, that should be a
reflection on them, not on Pluto.

* subject to my remembering correctly in one case.

--
Soft Rock Software: http://www.softrock.co.uk
Vince M Hudd: http://misc.vinceh.com/about-vinceh/
RISCOSitory: http://www.riscository.com

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <e19c98c1...@o2.co.uk>, Chris Hughes

<ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <52c140...@invalid.org.uk> Tim Hill <t...@invalid.org.uk>
> wrote:


> Personally I would tend to agree with you, but you listen to the "young
> ones" at work, who tell you we are not with it, and we should all have
> smartphones and tablets, etc.. - These are the potential future users,
> the Pi for the even younger, *might* help

All things pass... and most notable, what may be in 'fashion' or 'trendy'
quickly smells like last year's fish. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts]

Chris Hughes <ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:

> I had been thinking of things like Google Groups, Yahoo groups, amongst
> others.

I'd really like to know who the others are. I was looking to set up some
maillists for a choir's members to use - some as announcement only (in
effect), some more public.

I know quite a few people who're not happy to give Google-anything any more
access to their info than Google already have.

Yahoo seem ok, unless one wants any form of technical support.


Using Pluto or anything else, at home, is a non-starter because I do not
wish to leave machines on when I'm out of the house.

[Jess]

In message <fb37bcbf...@o2.co.uk>

Chris Hughes <ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:

>> That MPro is currently being developed is a bonus perhaps, but if we can
>> hope for 000s more RISC OS users (on lots of new Arm devices) there have
>> been hints that Pluto could still rise again.

> So you think somehow we are going to get thousands of new RISC OS

> users? It would need major improvements to the OS to bring it up to

> date and the applications overall to stand any real chance. Where is
> the money coming from?

I don't think it's out of the question, having tried Raspian I have
found a lot of the things it does that RISC OS can't do, it does very
slowly, so providing dual boot is a possibility, there is a potential.

However, I suspect we'll get a reasonable amount of returning users,
rather than new ones.

--
Jess Iyonix

[Jess]

In message <52c1b1c...@audiomisc.co.uk>

Jim Lesurf <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:

> All things pass... and most notable, what may be in 'fashion' or 'trendy'
> quickly smells like last year's fish. :-)

According to Microsoft, Windows 7 is dated and cheesy.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/05/21/windows_8_aero_dead/

--
Jess Iyonix

[Jess]

In message <52bfca28...@mdharding.org.uk>

M Harding <ris...@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:

> But is that only applicable to Windows emailers, not VRPC? I ask this
> because last week I received a suspicious email from an acquaintance
> inviting me to click on a URL - which I didn't - and he confirmed he
> hadn't sent it.

That wouldn't be a virus, just a link to a website loaded with
exploits to install a virus, so AVG couldn't flag it up unless it
actually looked at the site or had it on a blackist of sites.
--
Jess Iyonix

[Chris Hughes]

In message <mpro.m90c7s...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk.invalid>

Jeremy Nicoll - news posts
<jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:

> Chris Hughes <ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:

>> I had been thinking of things like Google Groups, Yahoo groups, amongst
>> others.

> I'd really like to know who the others are. I was looking to set up some
> maillists for a choir's members to use - some as announcement only (in
> effect), some more public.

Just done a quick search:

http://www.emailaddresses.com/email_mailing.htm

and Freelist is not just for Technology, it covers a load of things
like religion, music, Education, etc

http://www.freelists.org/

Purley Hosting also do some Mailing list using Mailman with certain
accounts/plans.

> I know quite a few people who're not happy to give Google-anything any more
> access to their info than Google already have.

I can understand that.

> Yahoo seem ok, unless one wants any form of technical support.

The club uses Yahoo and has done for a number of years without any
real issue or support needed.

> Using Pluto or anything else, at home, is a non-starter because I do not
> wish to leave machines on when I'm out of the house.

Understood.

--
Chris Hughes

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts]

Chris Hughes <ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <mpro.m90c7s...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk.invalid>
> Jeremy Nicoll - news posts

>> I'd really like to know who the others are. I was looking to set up some
>> maillists for a choir's members to use - some as announcement only (in
>> effect), some more public.
>
>Just done a quick search:
>
>http://www.emailaddresses.com/email_mailing.htm

Thanks! I found various lists of list providers, but they were all years
out of date.

> and Freelist is not just for Technology, it covers a load of things like
> religion, music, Education, etc

> http://www.freelists.org/

I know where they are; I'm the owner of a freelists list. I think that what
I thought is still the case though; see the third item on their sign-up page
at:

http://www.freelists.org/signup.html

I looked at the 'music' and 'religion' list of lists - they're mainly still
about the application of some sort of technology to an area of interest.


I had some difficulty when I created 'my' freelist list. It's not an
automatic process. The freelists staff look at the proposal and vet it; in
my case they'd never heard of the software product I was proposing that my
list should support and they rejected the proposal, without even googling to
see if that software existed. I had to provide much more info before they
accepted the list topic. That being so I find it incredible that non-tech
lists are being hosted here.

>> Yahoo seem ok, unless one wants any form of technical support.
>
> The club uses Yahoo and has done for a number of years without any real
> issue or support needed.

I had problems with mail bouncing when sent from one yahoo-hosted list to
one of my email addresses. I couldn't get Yahoo technical support to
explain why it bounced; the 'reason' displayed on the bounce history page
was wrong - that is it stated as a cause something that was not the case.
Vast amounts of other email goes to other addresses in the same domain ok.
My domain's hoster, A&A, are a technically savvy ISP who were more than
happy to get involved, but Yahoo would not do so.

[Chris Hughes]

In message <mpro.m90unq...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk.invalid>

Jeremy Nicoll - news posts

<jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:

> Chris Hughes <ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:

>>In message <mpro.m90c7s...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk.invalid>
>> Jeremy Nicoll - news posts

>>> I'd really like to know who the others are. I was looking to set up some
>>> maillists for a choir's members to use - some as announcement only (in
>>> effect), some more public.
>>
>>Just done a quick search:
>>
>>http://www.emailaddresses.com/email_mailing.htm

> Thanks! I found various lists of list providers, but they were all years
> out of date.

yes the list does seem to have got smaller.

One I forgot to mention is of course Vince Hudd's Riscosity.

>> and Freelist is not just for Technology, it covers a load of things like
>> religion, music, Education, etc

>> http://www.freelists.org/

> I know where they are; I'm the owner of a freelists list. I think that what
> I thought is still the case though; see the third item on their sign-up page
> at:

> http://www.freelists.org/signup.html

Yes, I see what you mean now.

> I looked at the 'music' and 'religion' list of lists - they're mainly still
> about the application of some sort of technology to an area of interest.

Fair enough

> I had some difficulty when I created 'my' freelist list. It's not an
> automatic process. The freelists staff look at the proposal and vet it; in
> my case they'd never heard of the software product I was proposing that my
> list should support and they rejected the proposal, without even googling to
> see if that software existed. I had to provide much more info before they
> accepted the list topic. That being so I find it incredible that non-tech
> lists are being hosted here.

I can understand this in some ways, with all these sad spammers about
they probably wnat to ensure it was a genuine request, etc..

>>> Yahoo seem ok, unless one wants any form of technical support.
>>
>> The club uses Yahoo and has done for a number of years without any real
>> issue or support needed.

> I had problems with mail bouncing when sent from one yahoo-hosted list to
> one of my email addresses. I couldn't get Yahoo technical support to
> explain why it bounced; the 'reason' displayed on the bounce history page
> was wrong - that is it stated as a cause something that was not the case.
> Vast amounts of other email goes to other addresses in the same domain ok.
> My domain's hoster, A&A, are a technically savvy ISP who were more than
> happy to get involved, but Yahoo would not do so.

Oh I have seen that issue and in the couple of times it happenned was
actually not Yahoo's fault.

--
Chris Hughes

[Stuart]

In article <f706d9c...@itworkshop.invalid>,

Jess <phant...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > All things pass... and most notable, what may be in 'fashion' or
> > 'trendy' quickly smells like last year's fish. :-)

> According to Microsoft, Windows 7 is dated and cheesy.

> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/05/21/windows_8_aero_dead/

I have only one wish for future versions of Windows - that they'd
concentrate on making it faster, easier to find stuff so you can set it up
the way you want it and reduce the bloat.

We have just ordered a new PC for my wife and after a lot of angst have
gone for 7-pro rather than look for a copy of XP-pro 64bit on ebay.

[M Harding]

In article <a784d8c...@itworkshop.invalid>,

Thanks for the reassurance, everyone. So I can still continue with
Pluto, and don't have to migrate to Windows, which would have been a
pain. (Sorry, but the old ones are often the best!)

[Chris Shepheard]

In message <mpro.m90unq...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk.invalid>

Jeremy Nicoll - news posts

<jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:

(Freelists)

> I looked at the 'music' and 'religion' list of lists - they're mainly still
> about the application of some sort of technology to an area of interest.

They allowed me to have a list for our museum of country life
(historic technology)!

It might be worth asking the question if you can identify any sort of
"technology" in your subject matter.

Chris

--

Chris Shepheard writing as himself
chris.s...@chrispics.co.uk
from far west Surrey www.chrispics.co.uk

[Jess]

In message <52c22221...@mdharding.org.uk>

M Harding <ris...@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:

> Thanks for the reassurance, everyone. So I can still continue with
> Pluto, and don't have to migrate to Windows, which would have been a
> pain. (Sorry, but the old ones are often the best!)

I've never really used Pluto, but it would be hard pressed to get away
with being even nearly as bad as the best mainstream windows email
client with how fussy we are.

I suspect it's on a par with Messenger Pro (apart from the bits that
need updating)

--
Jess Iyonix

[spampling]

In article <52c21b36...@argonet.co.uk>, Stuart

<Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> I have only one wish for future versions of Windows - that they'd
> concentrate on making it faster, easier to find stuff so you can set it
> up the way you want it and reduce the bloat.

Ah, you mean not Windows at all.

--

Steve Pampling

[Dave Higton]

In message <52c21b36...@argonet.co.uk>

Stuart <Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> I have only one wish for future versions of Windows - that they'd
> concentrate on making it faster, easier to find stuff so you can set it up
> the way you want it and reduce the bloat.

No chance. No chance.

Each successive version gets worse. The same thing happens with their
apps - one example being the generally loathed ribbon.

Dave

[Dave Symes]

In article <f33aeac25...@my.inbox.com>,

[I must be careful how I word this otherwise I'll be accused of a RANT]
So tongue in cheek... :^)
But seriously...

Oh no! not the dreaded ribbon... ;-)

After upgrading our Word... Eventually after some months of frustration,
that thing forced Fay and I to take a step backwards to our previous
version. (Of Word) where we have remained.

Funny thing is, folks at MS think it's the greatest innovation since...

Dave

--

Dave Triffid

[Stuart]

In article <f33aeac25...@my.inbox.com>,

Dave Higton <da...@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:
> > I have only one wish for future versions of Windows - that they'd
> > concentrate on making it faster, easier to find stuff so you can set
> > it up the way you want it and reduce the bloat.

> No chance. No chance.

I can dream can't I? <g>

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <52c21b36...@argonet.co.uk>,
Stuart <Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> We have just ordered a new PC for my wife and after a lot of angst have
> gone for 7-pro rather than look for a copy of XP-pro 64bit on ebay.

If it's any help, I have XP and Win7 on both of my desktop PCs. And in
general prefer Win7. XP is just for those apps I sometimes use which I'd
have to pay to upgrade - or can't be.

Vista, on the other hand, was a total PITA.

--
*Not all men are annoying. Some are dead.

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Tony Moore]

On 22 Aug 2012, "Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <52c21b36...@argonet.co.uk>,
> Stuart <Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> > We have just ordered a new PC for my wife and after a lot of angst
> > have gone for 7-pro rather than look for a copy of XP-pro 64bit on
> > ebay.
>
> If it's any help, I have XP and Win7 on both of my desktop PCs. And in
> general prefer Win7. XP is just for those apps I sometimes use which
> I'd have to pay to upgrade - or can't be.
>
> Vista, on the other hand, was a total PITA.

I agree. For me, in order of preference: 7, XP, 2K, <big gap>, Vista.

Tony

[Alan Calder]

In article <65122ec352.old_coaster@old_coaster.yahoo.co.uk>,

I quite understand that many people make much greater demands on their
cimputer;s operating systems than I do but I don't get this dislike, nay
hatred, of Vista?

The Windows PC sitting next to my RPC went from a W98SE box to one running
Vista Home. Compared with W98 Vista was delight and with an update to the
excellent Lanman98 connection between my various devices proceeded
smoothly. So it has gone on and I haven't found Vista causing me any
problems - mind you, as I said, I don't demand much of it beyond the WIMP.

Yes, I've used XP - ran the school networks on it for years. Seemed OK but
fundamentally no different from Vista that I can see. Maybe it's because
I've set all the Classic settings I can find in Vista?

I wish someone would enlighten me!

Alan

--
Alan Calder, Milton Keynes, UK.

[charles]

In article <52c3323345...@o2.co.uk>, Alan Calder

I think that Vista was disliked because when it was released there were
virtually no drivers for most of the externals on the market. I know of one
print shop who had new PCs installed and were out of business for over two
weeks since they couldn't 'talk' to their printers

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

[Alan Calder]

In article <52c3339d...@charleshope.demon.co.uk>, charles

<cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <52c3323345...@o2.co.uk>, Alan Calder
> <alan_...@o2.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <65122ec352.old_coaster@old_coaster.yahoo.co.uk>, Tony
> > Moore <old_c...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > > On 22 Aug 2012, "Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > In article <52c21b36...@argonet.co.uk>, Stuart
> > > > <Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

> > > > Vista, on the other hand, was a total PITA.

> > > I agree. For me, in order of preference: 7, XP, 2K, <big gap>, Vista.

> > I quite understand that many people make much greater demands on their
> > cimputer;s operating systems than I do but I don't get this dislike,
> > nay hatred, of Vista?

[Snip]

> > I wish someone would enlighten me!

> I think that Vista was disliked because when it was released there were
> virtually no drivers for most of the externals on the market. I know of
> one print shop who had new PCs installed and were out of business for
> over two weeks since they couldn't 'talk' to their printers

Yes, that I can understand - change is often a problem in matters like that
though I am surprised that the firm in question hadn't checked for such
problems before such a large upgrade. Perhaps they had been running
Windows xxx for so long that there might be a problem simply didn't occur
to them. I have 'fond' memories of the days when we used to get serious
upgrades to RISC OS and all the scrabbling around that used to be done to
get all our programs and devices working happily again!

Thanks for the response.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <52c3323345...@o2.co.uk>,
Alan Calder <alan_...@o2.co.uk> wrote:

> The Windows PC sitting next to my RPC went from a W98SE box to one
> running Vista Home. Compared with W98 Vista was delight and with an
> update to the excellent Lanman98 connection between my various devices
> proceeded smoothly. So it has gone on and I haven't found Vista causing
> me any problems - mind you, as I said, I don't demand much of it beyond
> the WIMP.

I'd agree Vista is probably better than Win98 - but then so it should be,
given the vast time between them. However, I'd guess you would have a
different view if you'd 'upgraded' from XP.

> Yes, I've used XP - ran the school networks on it for years. Seemed OK
> but fundamentally no different from Vista that I can see. Maybe it's
> because I've set all the Classic settings I can find in Vista?

It kept on telling me 'you can't do this' when I knew I could. Like some
crotchety maiden aunt.

--
*For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism *

[Grahame Parish]

Add to that the change in the thrust of security - you had to go through
hoops to do anything useful, such as installing a program, and new
device, deleting a shared desktop shortcut, etc. The idea was that you
had to confirm that you wanted to do it taking the onus off of Windows
to provide a secure environment and putting the blame for any problems
back on you. Most people got so annoyed by it that they disabled the
'feature' (UAC) so that they could do something useful with their computers.

That, and moving familiar items to unfamiliar places, changing the way
windows explorer displays the files and folders, like not tracking the
currently open folder in the tree view, auto-scrolling the tree view
whenever you want to drop a file into a folder in the tree view, and so
on....

Grahame.

[Stuart]

In article <52c3339d...@charleshope.demon.co.uk>,
charles <cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> I think that Vista was disliked because when it was released there were
> virtually no drivers for most of the externals on the market. I know of
> one print shop who had new PCs installed and were out of business for
> over two weeks since they couldn't 'talk' to their printers

Printing is one of the issues that concerns me.

I have a Canon S4500 photoreal inkjet which I bought from Spacetech years
ago and I've not been able to confirm the availability of drivers.

My Dell laser will be fine and if I had to replace my scanner it wouldn't
be a particularly big deal but an A3 inkjet is a different issue.

Apparently W7 pro, which I have ordered, has some sort of XP emulation
mode so I am hopeful

[charles]

In article <52c33d0d...@argonet.co.uk>,

yes it has an XP emulator - or to me more exact it runs XP in an emulation
mode. I had to use that to keep my scanner running - until one for W7
appeared.

[spampling]

In article <52c32201...@argonet.co.uk>,

Stuart <Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <f33aeac25...@my.inbox.com>,
> Dave Higton <da...@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:
> > > I have only one wish for future versions of Windows - that they'd
> > > concentrate on making it faster, easier to find stuff so you can set
> > > it up the way you want it and reduce the bloat.

> > No chance. No chance.

> I can dream can't I? <g>

Or download Libre Office.

--

Steve Pampling

[John Sandford]

Stuart <Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <52c3339d...@charleshope.demon.co.uk>,
> charles <cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > I think that Vista was disliked because when it was released there were
> > virtually no drivers for most of the externals on the market. I know of
> > one print shop who had new PCs installed and were out of business for
> > over two weeks since they couldn't 'talk' to their printers
>
> Printing is one of the issues that concerns me.
>
> I have a Canon S4500 photoreal inkjet which I bought from Spacetech years
> ago and I've not been able to confirm the availability of drivers.

The printer may work (50/50) at a basic level, but the software that came
with it almost certainly will not.

> My Dell laser will be fine and if I had to replace my scanner it wouldn't
> be a particularly big deal but an A3 inkjet is a different issue.

Look up VueScan (about 25 ukp)this will drive most scanners,( Used on my
Epsom perfection 650) (film scanner attachements will need the Pro version.)

> Apparently W7 pro, which I have ordered, has some sort of XP emulation
> mode so I am hopeful

Needs downloading.
mostly seems to need Win 7 drivers to operate attached devices.

VMware player is a better bet as this grabs the device away from Windows 7.

John



--
John Sandford
home

[John Williams (News)]

In article <mpro.m966kb000...@thesandfords.me.uk>,

John Sandford <li...@thesandfords.me.uk> wrote:

> Used on my Epsom perfection

I expect that's a typo for Epson - Epsom is races or salts.

John

--
John Williams, Brittany, Northern France - no attachments to these addresses!
Non-RISC OS posters change user to johnrwilliams or put 'risc' in subject!
Who is John Williams? http://petit.four.free.fr/picindex/author/

[Stuart]

In article <52c350c3c0...@btinternet.com>,
spampling <spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Or download Libre Office.

Errr. I don't believe that is an OS!

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <52c336e...@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman

(News) <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> I'd agree Vista is probably better than Win98 - but then
> so it should be, given the vast time between them.
> However, I'd guess you would have a different view if
> you'd 'upgraded' from XP.

There is one area (at least) where 98 has it for me over XP
- accessing the serial port.

Many years ago I bought a box that can be programmed to
divert incoming phone calls to different phones on the basis
of their CLI.

This box (obviously) needs to be programmed with a list of
numbers that goes to port 2, while other go to port 1.

The software that came with the box was written in visual
basic and works fine on 98 - I think it was still 95 when it
was written.

The software runs fine under XP and even 7, allowing me to
edit the phone numbers and so on - except that under XP and
7 it will not talk to the box.

Googling for help finally told me that from XP software has
been banned from directly addressing the serial port (which
is how the box connects to the computer).

So I need to keep an ancient laptop running 98 to deal with
this task.

--
Russell
http://www.russell-hafter-holidays.co.uk
Russell Hafter Holidays E-mail to enquiries at our domain
Need a hotel? <http://www.hrs.com/?client=en__blue&customerId=416873103>

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <52c3151...@triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes

<da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <f33aeac25...@my.inbox.com>, Dave
> Higton <da...@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:
> > In message <52c21b36...@argonet.co.uk> Stuart
> > <Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> > > I have only one wish for future versions of Windows -
> > > that they'd concentrate on making it faster, easier
> > > to find stuff so you can set it up the way you want
> > > it and reduce the bloat.

> > No chance. No chance.

> > Each successive version gets worse. The same thing
> > happens with their apps - one example being the
> > generally loathed ribbon.

> > Dave

> [I must be careful how I word this otherwise I'll be
> accused of a RANT] So tongue in cheek... :^) But
> seriously...

> Oh no! not the dreaded ribbon... ;-)

> After upgrading our Word... Eventually after some months
> of frustration, that thing forced Fay and I to take a
> step backwards to our previous version. (Of Word) where
> we have remained.

May be I am thinking of someone else, but I thought I
recalled you saying you did not use WP software, though
maybe that was just under RISC OS.

Why use Word at all? More importantly, why BUY Word, when
there are perfectly decent open source programs around that
read incoming Word files.

And for simple documents, Wordpad seems perfectly OK.

For myself, I like EasiWriter.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <52c36cad...@walkingingermany.invalid>,

Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:
> Googling for help finally told me that from XP software has
> been banned from directly addressing the serial port (which
> is how the box connects to the computer).

I have a MegaSquirt fuel injection ECU on the old car and the tuning
software for that communicates via the serial port. As do most of these
aftermarket ECUs. Works under '98 through to W7. Of course most laptops
these days need a USB to serial adaptor.
Think with XP (or perhaps older) I had to install Hyper Terminal first.
But that might have been with the earlier different tuning software.

--
*Why do overlook and oversee mean opposite things? *

[Dave Symes]

In article <52c36da6...@walkingingermany.invalid>,

Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

> In article <52c3151...@triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes
> <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:

[Snippy]

> > Oh no! not the dreaded ribbon... ;-)

> > After upgrading our Word... Eventually after some months
> > of frustration, that thing forced Fay and I to take a
> > step backwards to our previous version. (Of Word) where
> > we have remained.

> May be I am thinking of someone else, but I thought I
> recalled you saying you did not use WP software, though
> maybe that was just under RISC OS.

It was I Russell, so your memory is holding good.

Generally speaking I don't use Word, but like you, I run a small business
and some of my customers require communication to be in Word documents,
and as you also know, if you are particularly in a service situation,
keeping customers happy so they come back time and time again is
important...
That's the only time I use Word seriously.

Additionally, Fay does her own thing and many of the requirements of her
communications also require Word documents.

> Why use Word at all? More importantly, why BUY Word, when
> there are perfectly decent open source programs around that
> read incoming Word files.

If only life was as simple as you've written.

For Fays stuff she needs Word, and she started using it back at the turn
of the century.
IIRC. It was upgraded(?) in 2002/2003 and that's the version she continues
to use for general purpose stuff.

However, a few years ago we upgraded(?) to Word 2007 where we encountered
the dreaded ribbon.
At that time DocX was the default Word file doing the rounds, and while
the Freeby alternatives you have in mind could read DocX files, unless it
was a simple Document, they re-formatted it/them badly.

As a lot of the docs she received to Edit were very complex, they had to
be edited in a suitable version of Word.
Customers don't like their carefully crafted documents, after Editing
returned in chaos order.

We have a number of freeby apps that'll read and even output files as Word
documents, like Open Office, etc, etc, but as good as they might be
getting now, with her complex documents, they nearly always have a problem
with something.

The ultimate bottom line of course is... If She wants Word, rather than
some other imitation app, that's her choice for whatever reason.

> And for simple documents, Wordpad seems perfectly OK.

Including the ribbon toobars it now has, and I assume it still doesn't
have a 'spull chucker'?

We have AbiWord installed for that sort of thing, but...
Again, generally speaking, we don't often seem to do "simple" documents.

If I'm going to write a shopping list I use Zap on RO.

> For myself, I like EasiWriter.

I didn't know there was a WinPC version of those apps?

As has been noted before, I use OvPro for both RO and Windows.

Dave

--

Dave Triffid

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts]

Dave Symes <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:

> However, a few years ago we upgraded(?) to Word 2007 where we encountered
> the dreaded ribbon.

What's actually the problem with the ribbon? I've not seen it but I thought
it was basically a context sensitive set of toolbar buttons? I can see that
that would possibly be confusing to people who've learned a static layout of
longer menus of options and therefore always knew where to find things, but
bearing in mind people here tend to say that RO's context sensitive options
are one of its strengths, why would it be a disadvantage in MS apps?

--
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Email sent to my from-address will be deleted. Instead, please reply
to newsre...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk replacing "aaa" by "284".

[Chris Hughes]

In message <mpro.m974nd...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk.invalid>

Jeremy Nicoll - news posts
<jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:

> Dave Symes <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:

>> However, a few years ago we upgraded(?) to Word 2007 where we encountered
>> the dreaded ribbon.

> What's actually the problem with the ribbon? I've not seen it but I thought
> it was basically a context sensitive set of toolbar buttons? I can see that
> that would possibly be confusing to people who've learned a static layout of
> longer menus of options and therefore always knew where to find things, but
> bearing in mind people here tend to say that RO's context sensitive options
> are one of its strengths, why would it be a disadvantage in MS apps?

Must admit I wondered the same question, it just makes Office and some
other applicatiosn now have a standard style aka Style Guide like RISC
OS has a standard Style Guide! :-)

--
Chris Hughes

[spampling]

In article <52c3612f...@argonet.co.uk>,

Stuart <Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <52c350c3c0...@btinternet.com>,
> spampling <spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > Or download Libre Office.

> Errr. I don't believe that is an OS!

No, but the normal excuse for Windows is MS Office and the logical route is
Libre Office on MS and then Libre Office on Linux.
Of course if the Linux variant is running on ARM then the next step is...

--

Steve Pampling

[Steve Fryatt]

On 23 Aug, Jeremy Nicoll - news posts wrote in message
<mpro.m974nd...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk.invalid>:

> Dave Symes <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > However, a few years ago we upgraded(?) to Word 2007 where we
> > encountered the dreaded ribbon.
>
> What's actually the problem with the ribbon?

Nothing: it's /different/, but if you take a few minutes to familiarise
yourself it's a lot quicker to get to things than via the old interface.

I was "upgraded" to Office 2010 a few months back and, like my colleagues,
initially hated it. I wouldn't want to go back now.

> I've not seen it but I thought it was basically a context sensitive set of
> toolbar buttons?

Correct. Once you've found your way around, it's all logical and the most
frequently used stuff is always close to hand.

--
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England

http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/

[Steve Fryatt]

On 22 Aug, Russell Hafter News wrote in message
<52c36cad...@walkingingermany.invalid>:

> There is one area (at least) where 98 has it for me over XP - accessing
> the serial port.
>
> Many years ago I bought a box that can be programmed to divert incoming
> phone calls to different phones on the basis of their CLI.
>
> This box (obviously) needs to be programmed with a list of numbers that
> goes to port 2, while other go to port 1.
>
> The software that came with the box was written in visual basic and works
> fine on 98 - I think it was still 95 when it was written.
>
> The software runs fine under XP and even 7, allowing me to edit the phone
> numbers and so on - except that under XP and 7 it will not talk to the
> box.
>
> Googling for help finally told me that from XP software has been banned
> from directly addressing the serial port (which is how the box connects to
> the computer).

In which case your software is badly written and ignored all of the rules.
Accessing the serial port is trivial in VB6 and VB.net (or C#, in my case)
under XP through to 7: I do it all the time to talk to various bits of test
hardware.

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <52c36fa...@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman

(News) <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <52c36cad...@walkingingermany.invalid>,
> Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid>
> wrote:

> > Googling for help finally told me that from XP software
> > has been banned from directly addressing the serial
> > port (which is how the box connects to the computer).

> I have a MegaSquirt fuel injection ECU on the old car and
> the tuning software for that communicates via the serial
> port. As do most of these aftermarket ECUs. Works under
> '98 through to W7. Of course most laptops these days need
> a USB to serial adaptor.

> Think with XP (or perhaps older) I had to install Hyper
> Terminal first. But that might have been with the earlier
> different tuning software.

That would seem to be something that replaces other
software, not something that just allows the serial port to
be addressed directly.

Would it not be the case that your software includes a
driver to talk to the Serial port?

I believe mine uses the windows equivalent of *FX5 2 to do
so.

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <52c397a...@triffid.co.uk>,

Dave Symes <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:


> It was I Russell, so your memory is holding good.

> Generally speaking I don't use Word, but like you, I run
> a small business and some of my customers require
> communication to be in Word documents, and as you also
> know, if you are particularly in a service situation,
> keeping customers happy so they come back time and time
> again is important...

I see.

If I e-mail people documents, they are *always* PDFs. No
doubt some customers are savvy enough to be able to edit
these, and most no doubt realise that there is probably
little point anyway, but still.

In my fairly limited experience, all travel firms now e-mail
customers documents as PDFs, and those of my suppliers that
used to send me Word docs of one sort or another are all now
sending PDFs too.

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <52c397a...@triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes

<da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:

> > And for simple documents, Wordpad seems perfectly OK.

> Including the ribbon toobars it now has, and I assume it
> still doesn't have a 'spull chucker'?

I am not aware of having seen this 'ribbon' anyhere,
certainly not in Wordpad on Win7 Starter (I think that is
what it is called) on my Netbook, which is the only place I
would use a Windows WP. I agree its UI is not as obvious as
it is in XP - but when I was using it seriously a couple of
weeks ago (to update a document with major alterations while
away from home) I started with an RTF version of the documnt
exported by EasiWriter. Loosing the page formatting was not
a problem as I knew I would have had to re do it anyway even
if I had been able to do the alterations in EW.

> We have AbiWord installed for that sort of thing, but...
> Again, generally speaking, we don't often seem to do
> "simple" documents.

Pity.

> If I'm going to write a shopping list I use Zap on RO.

Do not have Zap, and we do not do shopping lists

> > For myself, I like EasiWriter.

> I didn't know there was a WinPC version of those apps?

Sadly no, but then I do all my WP stuff (if possible) on an
RPC anyway.

> As has been noted before, I use OvPro for both RO and
> Windows.

Yes, but I have never found any use for a real DTP
application.

[Richard Travers]

In article <52c3a3628d...@btinternet.com>, spampling

Or Open Office, of course.

R.

--

Richard Travers
rich...@uwclub.net

[Russell Hafter News]

In article
<mpro.m97b2601...@stevefryatt.org.uk>, Steve

Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:

> > Googling for help finally told me that from XP software
> > has been banned from directly addressing the serial
> > port (which is how the box connects to the computer).

> In which case your software is badly written and ignored
> all of the rules.

Did those rules apply in the mid 1990s?

> Accessing the serial port is trivial in VB6 and VB.net
> (or C#, in my case) under XP through to 7: I do it all
> the time to talk to various bits of test hardware.

All very well, and I would assume irrelevant as it was
originally written (I am now pretty certain I am correct
about that) for Win 3.10 and (presumably) updated for
95. I have Ver. 5.2 and the installation files are dated
Aug 1995, not sure if that is before or after 95 was
officially released!

Knowing any of that does not help me run the software under
XP or 7.

[Chris Newman]

In article <52c3b2724...@uwclub.net>,

I don't want to start another app war but..

Which is better? Libre Office or Open Office?

(Ducks swiftly behind desk to avoid flac, missiles etc...)

Not really RISC OS related but I do have Open Office on the Windows
machine which runs my VA. Never tried Libre Office.

--
Chris Newman

[Chris Newman]

In article <mpro.m97axm00...@stevefryatt.org.uk>,

For what it's worth, you can change some aspects.....

In Office 2010 you can now customise the Ribbon rather than putting up with
the way that Microsoft wants it.

Click on the File button, Options and then on Customize Ribbon in the
left-hand column. Click on New Group button at the bottom right and then
Rename. Enter a name and click on OK.

You can now drag and drop icons from the left-hand column into the new custom
group.

One useful group in the �Choose commands from' list is commands not in the
Ribbon.

I found it helpful to move the new group to the top of the Home tab.
Left-Click on it once and then click on the up arrow to the right repeatedly
until it is at the top of the tab. Click on OK to save the changes and your
new group will appear in the Ribbon.


This came from ComputerActive, a great fortnightly magazine. Quite cheap too.
Does mainly Windows but has Mac, Linux, tablet & smartphone stuff.

Hope this might help,

--
Chris Newman

[NedA]

In article <52c3ba13...@waitrose.com>,
Chris Newman <cvj...@waitrose.com> wrote:

[Snip]

> I don't want to start another app war but..

> Which is better? Libre Office or Open Office?

> (Ducks swiftly behind desk to avoid flac, missiles etc...)

> Not really RISC OS related but I do have Open Office on the
> Windows machine which runs my VA. Never tried Libre Office.

AFAIUI Open Office development was transferred from Sun to
Oricle in 2010 and then the Apache foundation.

Libre Office was forked from OO on the Sun transfer and is an
open source development as free software and is still
developed and it may be that some of the original Sun
developers are involved.

Functionally they are similar but it may be there are more 3rd
party developers for LO. Its suggested LO will also support MS
Publisher input later this year.

Im using LO as I think it may have more longevity.
HTH

--
besters
Ned

[Stuart]

In article <52c3a3628d...@btinternet.com>,
spampling <spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:

> > Errr. I don't believe that is an OS!

> No, but the normal excuse for Windows is MS Office and the logical route
> is Libre Office on MS and then Libre Office on Linux. Of course if the
> Linux variant is running on ARM then the next step is...

The only user of MS office in this house is my wife.

I think I need say no more!

[Dave Higton]

In message <mpro.m974nd...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk.invalid>
Jeremy Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk>
wrote:

> What's actually the problem with the ribbon?

1) It takes up valuable screen space - of which there is never enough
- and therefore allows you to see less of your document.

2) I find myself constantly switching backwards and forwards between
the ribbon's "tabs" to do related parts of tasks.

Dave

[Jess]

In message <52c397a...@triffid.co.uk>

Dave Symes <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:

> At that time DocX was the default Word file doing the rounds, and while
> the Freeby alternatives you have in mind could read DocX files, unless it
> was a simple Document, they re-formatted it/them badly.

There is a docx, xlsx, pptx converter pack from MS available.

It officially requires Office 2003 SP3 (iirc) but the word and ppt
converters appear to work fine with office 97, even. (the xls
converter does need 2003 SP3)

--
Jess Iyonix

[spampling]

In article <5597e7c35...@my.inbox.com>,

There are add-ons that you can download that give you back the familiar
menu system and you can turn off the ribbon.

> Dave

--

Steve Pampling

[John Sandford]

You can also put your most used actions on the quick launch bar place it
under the ribbon and hide the ribbon leaving only the tabs showing.

[Chris Hughes]

In message <52c423b4e4...@btinternet.com>

spampling <spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:

> In article <5597e7c35...@my.inbox.com>,
> Dave Higton <da...@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:
>> In message <mpro.m974nd...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk.invalid>
>> Jeremy Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk>
>> wrote:

>>> What's actually the problem with the ribbon?

>> 1) It takes up valuable screen space - of which there is never enough
>> - and therefore allows you to see less of your document.

You can minimise the ribbon or switch it off

>> 2) I find myself constantly switching backwards and forwards between
>> the ribbon's "tabs" to do related parts of tasks.

> There are add-ons that you can download that give you back the familiar
> menu system and you can turn off the ribbon.

You can customise the ribbon as well.


--
Chris Hughes

[Dave Symes]

In article <2a86b5c4...@o2.co.uk>,
Chris Hughes <ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:

[Snippy]

> You can customise the ribbon as well.

This is just for Jeremy N but the rest may enjoy if you so wish.

<Rant>
But you can't customize the sodding thing to go away and have a usual
MenuBar back.

<End of Rant> Sorry Jeremy, it was a bit feeble, but I'm long out of
practice.

It would be nice if we/she could have the usual menubar back as the new
thing does not make working easier, or faster, or more efficient, infact
for Us the opposite is true.

Dave

--

Dave Triffid

[Tim Hill]

In article <52c3b01f...@walkingingermany.invalid>, Russell Hafter
News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

[Snip]

> In my fairly limited experience, all travel firms now e-mail customers
> documents as PDFs, and those of my suppliers that used to send me Word
> docs of one sort or another are all now sending PDFs too.

It's a great shame. I used to take great delight on poking about in local
authority word documents and copying confidential information about
someone else back to them.

--
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Share in a better energy supplier: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg
* Share in cheaper ethical telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/

... "Thou art as wise as thou art beautiful" Mid N Dr, Act iii, Sc.1

[Tim Hill]

In article <52c334e725...@o2.co.uk>, Alan Calder
<alan_...@o2.co.uk> wrote:
> I have 'fond' memories of the days when we used to get serious upgrades
> to RISC OS and all the scrabbling around that used to be done to get
> all our programs and devices working happily again!

I am reminded of RISC OS 5.18 and EasyFontPro. Not that long ago.

--
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Share in a better energy supplier: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg
* Share in cheaper ethical telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/

... "All that lives must die, passing through nature to eternity" Hamlet, Act i, Sc.2

[Tim Hill]

In article <k12h3g$ut2$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, Grahame Parish
<maillis...@millers-way.net> wrote:

[snippo]

> The idea was that you had to confirm that you wanted to do it taking
> the onus off of Windows to provide a secure environment and putting
> the blame for any problems back on you. Most people got so annoyed by
> it that they disabled the 'feature' (UAC) so that they could do
> something useful with their computers.

Windows 7 has a similar 'feature' that you need to switch off unless you
want the urge to place the computer 'out the window' with gravity's help.

We have gone from:

Save File? Yes/No

to

DOS: Save File? Yes/No
Win3: Are you sure? Yes/No
WinNT: Are you really sure? Yes/No
WinXP: I'm a sodding paperclip, or not actually a real person may I help?
NO!
WinVista: Are you really, really sure? Yes/No
Win7: I think we had better ask an administrator, don't you? Of, you are
one? There's no need to swear. How was I to....no, wait...

Later versions of Windows ought to have a quiz at install to determine
whether you are stupid or not and save me the trouble of having to switch
so much of their 'security' crap off. I can manage with the DOS Yes/No
and am not someone who needs to be constantly checked for the stupidity
gene. I still can't work out how, even as an admin user on everything, I
can stop this stupidity in Windows7:

1. Within a 'Save As..' dialogue box, I attempt to save a file to NAS.
2. Error! You need to ask an administrator to do that.
3. Mutter to self: "May I save a file? Yes I may."
4. Close the error box.
5. Click the Save OK button again.
6. Do you want to overwrite a file of the same name? (WTF?) Yes.
7. The file is saved.
(NB both 'copies' of the same file are created during the second - the
successful - save operation.)

RISC OS & SunFish does this:

1. Drag to Save a file to NAS.

Is this why RISC OS is a bit boring? It. Just. Works. ?

On what planet is such behaviour acceptable on a wimp operating system
now in its seventh iteration? As with any OS these days, it is evident
that some supposed fanboys have more concern that things 'have been
designed', 'look modern' and are not 'out-of-date'. Aero's great but
don't forget to make sure the filing system works properly and it doesn't
make Windows look stupid and broken out of the box. Derr.

--
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Share in a better energy supplier: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg
* Share in cheaper ethical telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/

... "My endeavours have ever come too short of my desires" Henry VIII, Act iii, Sc.2