ROOL forum, Was: Daunted by Pi

[Peter Young]

On 9 Dec 2012 Bob Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

> Am I alone with the feeling that RISC OS has now moved so far from all I'm
> familiar with that it is now more daunting than moving to Windows 7 or
> something else main stream?

> One of the issues for me is the hatred of web forums, to me they're just
> awful compared to usenet and I have tried to stay with it by using the RSS
> feed from RO Open with Hermes and Pluto. To be honest, this is the only
> RSS feed I get which doesn't work well as it is festooned with html which
> makes reading the posts almost impossible.

I can't answer you on the subject of the Pi, as I'm more than happy
with this ARMini. However, I do share your loathing of on-line forums,
and find that discovering anything useful on them is a fundamental
pain. I hope this doesn't perpetuate the heated debate about this
which erupted elsewhere not long ago!

I also agree that mail readers make a hash of the ROOL forum. However,
have a look at Sargasso, from http://zamez.org/sargasso which is a
reader of RSS feeds, and which deals very competently with the ROOL
feed.

With best wishes,

Peter.

--
Peter Young (zfc Ta) and family
Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
pny...@ormail.co.uk

[Martin Bazley]

The following bytes were arranged on 9 Dec 2012 by Bob Latham :

> How do complete beginners start with Pi from zero base knowledge and
> no RO5?

You get rid of your hang-ups, like:

> Then there is the new language. Almost every post on there is talking
> about things I know nothing about at all, this after decades of using RISC
> OS.

If you can get past your neophobia for a few minutes, have a look at the
newbies posting on the Raspberry Pi forum. They're much more scared of
RISC OS than you are of them. (One particularly common bug report is
that "the downloads always seem to stall - the counter increments to the
end but then it does nothing!" Then, a few minutes later: "Why would
you build native drag-and-drop support into an operating system? Rrrr,
it's so unintuitive! I'm going back to typing obscure barely-documented
commands into a text-only terminal through ungodly layers of Linux
abstraction. Now there's a system everyone can understand!")

> Although I fancy having a look at Pi I have so little understanding of
> all the details that I'm strongly put off getting a Pi.

1) Buy Pi

2) Buy RISC OS SD card from ROOL at
<http://www.riscosopen.org/content/sales/risc-os-pi>

3) (optional) Go shopping! If you don't have any of the items in this
list, you'll need to buy them:
- a USB-connected keyboard (note: Apple keyboards are known to cause
issues)
- a USB-connected mouse
- an HDMI-connected monitor
- a 5V/0.7A Micro USB power supply (see a picture here:
<http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=4751>)
- an Ethernet cable if you want your Pi to be able to access the
internet

4) Put SD card in Pi

5) Switch on Pi

> I'm sure I would have no clue where to begin.

You forget that the Pi is aimed at teaching non-technical users how a
computer works. If you don't have a clue, it sounds as if you need to
buy one.

> In addition I have the impression that getting Pi to work relies on
> having the tools only available in RO 5 machines which I've never seen
> except for glimpses at exhibitions 5 or more years ago.

If this wasn't complete bollocks, how exactly do you think everyone
would be so excited about a major new opportunity to get a native RISC
OS computer into the hands of people who *don't* already own one?

--
__<^>__
/ _ _ \ I don't have a problem with God; it's his fan club I can't stand.
( ( |_| ) )
\_> <_/ ======================= Martin Bazley ==========================

[Martin Bazley]

The following bytes were arranged on 9 Dec 2012 by Peter Young :

> On 9 Dec 2012 Bob Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

> > One of the issues for me is the hatred of web forums, to me they're just
> > awful compared to usenet
>

> However, I do share your loathing of on-line forums, and find that
> discovering anything useful on them is a fundamental pain. I hope this
> doesn't perpetuate the heated debate about this which erupted
> elsewhere not long ago!

Oddly enough, Peter may or may not be referring to a recent thread on
the ROOL forum itself:

http://www.riscosopen.org/forum/forums/11/topics/1542

[Philip Draper]

In message <52fb61...@sick-of-spam.invalid>

Bob Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

> Am I alone with the feeling that RISC OS has now moved so far from all I'm
> familiar with that it is now more daunting than moving to Windows 7 or
> something else main stream?

> One of the issues for me is the hatred of web forums, to me they're just

> awful compared to usenet and I have tried to stay with it by using the RSS
> feed from RO Open with Hermes and Pluto. To be honest, this is the only
> RSS feed I get which doesn't work well as it is festooned with html which
> makes reading the posts almost impossible.

> Then there is the new language. Almost every post on there is talking
> about things I know nothing about at all, this after decades of using RISC

> OS. Although I fancy having a look at Pi I have so little understanding of
> all the details that I'm strongly put off getting a Pi. I'm sure I would
> have no clue where to begin. In addition I have the impression that

> getting Pi to work relies on having the tools only available in RO 5
> machines which I've never seen except for glimpses at exhibitions 5 or
> more years ago.

> How do complete beginners start with Pi from zero base knowledge and no
> RO5?

Don't be put off trying it, because actually getting it to work is
simple. All you need is an SD card with RISCOS on it, mouse & keyboard
(USB), power supply and some sort of display capable of handling HDMI
signals (like most modern TV sets). My Pi, from RS, came with a power
supply. I got the rest from a web site called The Pi Hut, who also
make rather nice small boxes for the bare circuit board. The SD card
is available from ROOL. The Pi plugs into an ethernet network if you
have one. And then it just works.

Of course there is still a lot to learn and to do to expand the
system, but as far as actually starting the process seems easy.

Philip.
--
Philip Draper

Phi...@borehamh.demon.co.uk

[Dave Higton]

In message <52fb61...@sick-of-spam.invalid>
Bob Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

> Am I alone with the feeling that RISC OS has now moved so far from all I'm
> familiar with that it is now more daunting than moving to Windows 7 or
> something else main stream?

Well, let's put it this way: I don't share your view.

> One of the issues for me is the hatred of web forums, to me they're just
> awful compared to usenet and I have tried to stay with it by using the RSS
> feed from RO Open with Hermes and Pluto. To be honest, this is the only RSS
> feed I get which doesn't work well as it is festooned with html which makes
> reading the posts almost impossible.

I don't share your hatred of web fora either. I take part in the ROOL
fora fairly often. I have no problem understanding what anyone says,
and I don't see why that shouldn't be true for anyone, assuming that
s/he only tries to understand postings pitched at an appropriate level
of understanding (i.e. if you're not technical, don't expect to
understand a technical posting, wherever it be posted).

> Then there is the new language. Almost every post on there is talking about
> things I know nothing about at all, this after decades of using RISC OS.
> Although I fancy having a look at Pi I have so little understanding of all
> the details that I'm strongly put off getting a Pi. I'm sure I would have
> no clue where to begin. In addition I have the impression that getting Pi
> to work relies on having the tools only available in RO 5 machines which
> I've never seen except for glimpses at exhibitions 5 or more years ago.
>
> How do complete beginners start with Pi from zero base knowledge and no
> RO5?

If you've used RISC OS for decades, the Pi should be very familiar
to you. It sounds as if you need to buy a RISC OS SD card from ROOL
in the first place; you will be able to update it as and when you
wish thereafter, while it is still in place, using a very easy
procedure.

You do need a monitor with an HDMI or DVI input. That's the only
new thing. All it means is a different (and probably cheaper!) type
of video cable. You also need to collect a kit, consisting of a
USB keyboard and USB mouse (familiar to all Iyonix owners), a power
supply (readily and cheaply available), and you'll probably want a
USB hard drive - again widely available, and astonishingly cheap.
(I just received a flyer today from Dabs offering a 500 GB drive
for GBP39.99.) Plug them together and the whole lost will just
work.

Where's the difficulty in that?

Dave

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <11cb64fb...@blueyonder.co.uk>, Martin

Bazley <martin...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> > Then there is the new language.

I have come to the conclusion over the years that every
software writer spends hours looking through a thesaurus for
trms that no other program or OS has ever used before for a
particular concept.
:-)

Time was, some 15 years ago, we were only supposed to accept
'directory' as a correct answer; 'folder' was to be marked
wrong.

Seriously, there has always seemed to be a determination on
tha part of some to deliberatly obfuscate.

> > Almost every post on there is talking about things I
> > know nothing about at all, this after decades of using
> > RISC OS.

> If you can get past your neophobia for a few minutes,
> have a look at the newbies posting on the Raspberry Pi
> forum. They're much more scared of RISC OS than you are
> of them. (One particularly common bug report is that
> "the downloads always seem to stall - the counter
> increments to the end but then it does nothing!"

As a mater of interest, what were they expecting? A message
to flash up saying 'Download Complete'? What OS dos that?

> Then, a few minutes later: "Why would you build native
> drag-and-drop support into an operating system?

Takes me back to last weekend, trying to copy several
hundred files from an SD card to the hard disc on one of my
partner's windows machines. She has it configured in, I
believe, the out-of-the-box display where there is never
more than one window open on the desktop and I was
desparately trying to get two windows open so that I could
drag the files from one window to the other...

I remembered (long after) that there is also copy / paste in
windows.

But AFAIK, Windows and Mac also have native drag-and-drop
support - I am sure that I have never had to configure it.

I guess that the writer was a dyed-in-the-wool command line
person?

--
Russell
http://www.russell-hafter-holidays.co.uk
Russell Hafter Holidays E-mail to enquiries at our domain
Need a hotel? <http://www.hrs.com/?client=en__blue&customerId=416873103>

[Peter Young]

On 9 Dec 2012 Martin Bazley <martin...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> The following bytes were arranged on 9 Dec 2012 by Peter Young :

>> On 9 Dec 2012 Bob Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

>>> One of the issues for me is the hatred of web forums, to me they're just
>>> awful compared to usenet
>>
>> However, I do share your loathing of on-line forums, and find that
>> discovering anything useful on them is a fundamental pain. I hope this
>> doesn't perpetuate the heated debate about this which erupted
>> elsewhere not long ago!

> Oddly enough, Peter may or may not be referring to a recent thread on
> the ROOL forum itself:

> http://www.riscosopen.org/forum/forums/11/topics/1542

No not that one, as I've given up reading forms unless I absolutely
have to. I can't remember where the thread was, and can't at the
moment track it down. Oh, yes, I can! It was the "First steps into
Pi_land" thread on the Archive list. There were two conflicting sides,
those who couldn't see what the problem was with forums, and those who
couldn't see why anyone should use forums. Nerves got a bit frayed!

[John Sandford]

Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:


> > Then, a few minutes later: "Why would you build native drag-and-drop
> > support into an operating system?
>
> Takes me back to last weekend, trying to copy several hundred files from
> an SD card to the hard disc on one of my partner's windows machines. She
> has it configured in, I believe, the out-of-the-box display where there is
> never more than one window open on the desktop and I was desparately
> trying to get two windows open so that I could drag the files from one
> window to the other...

in XP right click on a folder and choose explore.
in 7 or 8 right click on file explorer icon on the task bar and choose file
explorer,in a filer window right click menu has a open in new window option.

>
> I remembered (long after) that there is also copy / paste in windows.
>
> But AFAIK, Windows and Mac also have native drag-and-drop support - I am
> sure that I have never had to configure it.

They do, no configuration required.



--
John Sandford
home

[Dave Symes]

In article <52fb6aaf...@walkingingermany.invalid>,

Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

Snippy]

> As a mater of interest, what were they expecting? A message
> to flash up saying 'Download Complete'? What OS dos that?

The one I use to download stuff does.

It's called MS-Windows, I use a sophisticated download manager called
"DownThemAll" in and out of the browser I use for all my stuff.

It not only informs when the download has completed, but also asks if
you'd like to Open the containing directory (Folder).

Dave

--

Dave Triffid

[Steve Fryatt]

On 9 Dec, Bob Latham wrote in message
<52fb69...@sick-of-spam.invalid>:

> In article <11cb64fb...@blueyonder.co.uk>,
> Martin Bazley <martin...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>

> > If you can get past your neophobia for a few minutes, have a look at the
> > newbies posting on the Raspberry Pi forum.
>

> The only fear I have is that of wasting hard earned on something I can't
> get to work or is unsuitable for my circumstances.

The Pi isn't that expensive: if you're after finding out about RISC OS 5 and
how RISC OS is now supported on new hardware, buying a Pi is probably a
better bet than something based on a Beagle or Pandaboard.

> > - an HDMI-connected monitor
>
> I can't justify that, just too much money. I have a couple of monitors
> with DVI inputs, if it will work with them then it may be viable if not
> I'll have to stick with RPC. I could really do with knowing if the Pi will
> drive the Hanns-G HC196D but I don't think it likely anyone will know
> unless it's negative.

It might if it has DVI: you'd need a HDMI to DVI lead, and not an HDMI to
HDMI lead.

TBH, you'd be better asking that on the ROOL forum (yes, I know) as that's
where you'll find the most people who understand the graphics capabilities
of RISC OS 5 on the Pi. The forums aren't great to use, but it's where the
knowledge is and you can easily search them for stuff.

Once I'd decided to make an effort to get on with the forum, it turned out
to not be that hard to use. I find reading the recent posts list is the best
way to keep track of what is going on, then follow threads off that.

> > You forget that the Pi is aimed at teaching non-technical users how a
> > computer works. If you don't have a clue, it sounds as if you need to
> > buy one.
>

> I know how computers work. I know nothing about Pi. Those that do no doubt
> say its easy that is normal for everything. I need to know it will work
> and be useful to me before I part with cash. We don't have money to throw
> away on things that are unsuitable.

What do you want to do with it?

The bottom line is that RISC OS 5 on the new hardware (the Pi or the
Beagle/Pandaboard) is just like RISC OS 5 on the Iyonix, which in turn is
very much like RISC OS on a RiscPC or Virtual Acorn. The hardest bit is
getting the card image in place and booting -- on the Pi that's done for
you, so that you don't need to worry (see below).

There's obviously the issue of ARMv6/7 compatibility for software (just like
the problems when the Iyonix went 32-bit), but since the Pi came out a lot
of former developers seem to have come out of the woodwork and are working
on updating their code (even if it never went 32-bit 10 years ago).

> > > In addition I have the impression that getting Pi to work relies on
> > > having the tools only available in RO 5 machines which I've never seen
> > > except for glimpses at exhibitions 5 or more years ago.
>
> > If this wasn't complete bollocks,
>

> Nicely put.

But also true...

> > how exactly do you think everyone would be so excited about a major new
> > opportunity to get a native RISC OS computer into the hands of people
> > who *don't* already own one?
>

> Because I had the impression that you needed hardware to prepare the SD
> card that a PC or MAC user would have, that an RPC user would not.

There's a certain chicken and egg situation, yes. However, it's easily
resolved as ROOL will sell you an SD Card with a RISC OS image on it for a
tenner. If you also get yourself a couple of blank SD Cards (or more) of a
suitable size, then you can use that card to put images onto the others. As
long as you always keep one card 'safe', then you should be OK.

RISC OS can also self-update now, AFAIK -- as long as you always have
another bootable card to hand, then even if that screws up somehow then
there's a fallback.

The nice thing about the Pi (and Beagle/Pandaboard) is that because the
RISC OS 'ROM' lives on a removable (Micro)SD Card, swapping ROMs becomes
trivial. You can therefore have several different systems on different
cards: a "stable" one that you use for serious stuff, and "bleeding edge"
ones with the daily test builds on to experiment with (if that's what you
want to do).

--
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England Wakefield Acorn & RISC OS Show
Saturday 20 April 2013
http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/ http://www.wakefieldshow.org.uk/

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <5f6863fb5...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>, Peter Young

<pny...@ormail.co.uk> wrote:
> On 9 Dec 2012 Bob Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

> > Am I alone with the feeling that RISC OS has now moved so far from all
> > I'm familiar with that it is now more daunting than moving to Windows
> > 7 or something else main stream?

> > One of the issues for me is the hatred of web forums, to me they're
> > just awful compared to usenet and I have tried to stay with it by
> > using the RSS feed from RO Open with Hermes and Pluto. To be honest,
> > this is the only RSS feed I get which doesn't work well as it is
> > festooned with html which makes reading the posts almost impossible.

> I can't answer you on the subject of the Pi, as I'm more than happy
> with this ARMini. However, I do share your loathing of on-line forums,

I don't hate or loath web forums, but...

> and find that discovering anything useful on them is a fundamental
> pain.

...that I agree with. PITA to use.

In the end I'll probably end up with an R-Comp ARMiniX and decide to ignore
the RiPi because of simply not being able to find anwers to my basic
questions and requirements on the 'forums'. However if they suit others,
good luck to them. I hope the RiPi continues to do well, and draws more
people into finding they appreciate RO and its apps.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <52fb71b...@triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes

<da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <52fb6aaf...@walkingingermany.invalid>,
> Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid>
> wrote: Snippy]
> > As a mater of interest, what were they expecting? A
> > message to flash up saying 'Download Complete'? What OS
> > dos that?

> The one I use to download stuff does.

> It's called MS-Windows, I use a sophisticated download
> manager called "DownThemAll" in and out of the browser I
> use for all my stuff.

Sounds to me like an add-on, not part of the OS itself.

I just click on a link in browser window, and yes, the FF
download window opens and shows the progress, but if I had
not configured that window to stay open once the download
was complete it would close.

And in any case, that is part of Firefox, not Windows.

The only other thing I have seen is tht when updates to a
particular program have finished downloading, I get asked if
I want to install them. But again, that is a function of
that specific program, not Windows.

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <b38f68fb5...@my.inbox.com>, Dave Higton

<da...@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:

> > One of the issues for me is the hatred of web forums,
> > to me they're just awful compared to usenet and I have
> > tried to stay with it by using the RSS feed from RO
> > Open with Hermes and Pluto. To be honest, this is the
> > only RSS feed I get which doesn't work well as it is
> > festooned with html which makes reading the posts
> > almost impossible.

> I don't share your hatred of web fora either. I take
> part in the ROOL fora fairly often. I have no problem
> understanding what anyone says, and I don't see why that
> shouldn't be true for anyone, assuming that s/he only
> tries to understand postings pitched at an appropriate
> level of understanding (i.e. if you're not technical,
> don't expect to understand a technical posting, wherever
> it be posted).

I fully sympathise with Bob when it comes to forums (not
fora, please; it may be correct Latin, but we are writing
English here).

Many times I have searched for something on Google; this
provides a link to a supposedly relevant forum. Scrolling
through the forum page I can find no mention of my search,
so I copy that which Google quoted, go back to the forum
page, use Firefox's search facilty for that string and get
'not found'.

And if it is there, following the discussion can be nearly
impossible as there is no equivalent to the theading that
Pluto provides in an NG. Instead the answer to someone's
question may be half a dozen or more postings down the page.

That said, I did click on the link provided to the ROOL
forum earlier and I found it quite followable - whether that
is because the ROOL forum is better run, or because the page
I happened to land on seemed to be all about one specif
topic I do not know.

For myself, I am also put off forums by the fact that you
always have to log in - and so, presumably have created a
user profile - before contributing.

(I know that I could create a profile full of rubbish, but I
suspect that a real e-mail address is still needed).

[John Rickman Iyonix]

Bob Latham wrote

> Am I alone with the feeling that RISC OS has now moved so far from all I'm
> familiar with that it is now more daunting than moving to Windows 7 or
> something else main stream?

Have you been bitten by a Troll recently?

> One of the issues for me is the hatred of web forums, to me they're just
> awful compared to usenet and I have tried to stay with it by using the RSS
> feed from RO Open with Hermes and Pluto. To be honest, this is the only
> RSS feed I get which doesn't work well as it is festooned with html which
> makes reading the posts almost impossible.

Open the mail in Pluto, stripe the text to select it, then drag and
drop into onto NetSurf on the icon bar, drop onto an open NetSurf
window. It is a bit of extra effort, but you only need to open the
email that interest you.

> Then there is the new language. Almost every post on there is talking

> about things I know nothing about at all, this after decades of using RISC

> OS. Although I fancy having a look at Pi I have so little understanding of
> all the details that I'm strongly put off getting a Pi. I'm sure I would

> have no clue where to begin. In addition I have the impression that

> getting Pi to work relies on having the tools only available in RO 5
> machines which I've never seen except for glimpses at exhibitions 5 or
> more years ago.

If you are serious about catching up there are two books you could
look at. The "Raspberry Pi User Guide" by Eben Upton will answer all
of your questions, and there is a beginners Guide to the Raspberry Pi
by Chris Hall. Put one of them on your Christmas present list.


--
John - http://mug.riscos.org/

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts]

Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

> As a mater of interest, what were they expecting? A message to flash up
> saying 'Download Complete'? What OS dos that?

Dunno, but it's not the OS that's doing downloads, or is it? Firefox (on
Windows here) pops up a 'downloads complete' notification.


--
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Email sent to my from-address will be deleted. Instead, please reply
to newsre...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk replacing "aaa" by "284".

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts]

Bob Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

> Am I alone with the feeling that RISC OS has now moved so far from all I'm
> familiar with that it is now more daunting than moving to Windows 7 or
> something else main stream?

What level of RO are you familiar with?


>One of the issues for me is the hatred of web forums...

... but that's not a RO issue.

>Then there is the new language. Almost every post on there is talking
>about things I know nothing about at all, this after decades of using RISC
>OS.

Well, I could guess what you mean, but what's the point. Why don't you say
what sorts of things you mean?

> Although I fancy having a look at Pi I have so little understanding of all
> the details that I'm strongly put off getting a Pi.

Why would you want one anyway, if you already have computers that satisfy
your needs? What do you think you want a Pi for?

> How do complete beginners start with Pi from zero base knowledge and no
> RO5?

Don't know... but I was under the impression that RO was a side-show for the
Pi. The majority of buyers presumably use some form of Linux. I think it's
only because people HERE are RO-centric that you see posts hereabouts from
the subset of all Pi-users who are interested in it as a RO machine.

[John]

In article
<mpro.mervez08...@stevefryatt.org.uk>, Steve
Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:

<snip>

> > > - an HDMI-connected monitor
> >
> > I can't justify that, just too much money. I have a
> > couple of monitors with DVI inputs, if it will work
> > with them then it may be viable if not I'll have to
> > stick with RPC. I could really do with knowing if the
> > Pi will drive the Hanns-G HC196D but I don't think it
> > likely anyone will know unless it's negative.

> It might if it has DVI: you'd need a HDMI to DVI lead,
> and not an HDMI to HDMI lead.

<snip>

The following is taken from the FAQs section of the web
site:
________

GRAPHICS

What display can I use?

There is composite and HDMI out on the board, so you can
hook it up to an old analogue TV, to a digital TV or to a
DVI monitor (using a cheap adapter for the DVI). There is
no VGA support, but adaptors are available, although these
are relatively expensive.
________

So you are right, Steve, and your suggestion of an HDMI to
DVI lead sounds neater than using an HDMI to DVI convertor
though relative cost might be a factor.

John

--
John
new...@blueyonder.co.uk
j dot mccartney atte blueyonder dot co dot uk

[John]

In article <5f6863fb5...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>, Peter
Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk> wrote:

> I also agree that mail readers make a hash of the ROOL
> forum. However, have a look at Sargasso, from
> http://zamez.org/sargasso which is a reader of RSS
> feeds, and which deals very competently with the ROOL
> feed.

I've just tried it with the ROOL forums and got "Failed"
where it should say how many items were waiting and the
annotation (in unfriendly red letters) "unsupported
protocol".

[Doug Webb]

In message <52fb69...@sick-of-spam.invalid>

Bob Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

> In article <11cb64fb...@blueyonder.co.uk>,
> Martin Bazley <martin...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>> If you can get past your neophobia for a few minutes, have a look at the
>> newbies posting on the Raspberry Pi forum.

> The only fear I have is that of wasting hard earned on something I can't
> get to work or is unsuitable for my circumstances.

>> - an HDMI-connected monitor

> I can't justify that, just too much money. I have a couple of monitors
> with DVI inputs, if it will work with them then it may be viable if not
> I'll have to stick with RPC. I could really do with knowing if the Pi will
> drive the Hanns-G HC196D but I don't think it likely anyone will know
> unless it's negative.

Got a Raspberry Pi working with a HannsG here both 196D and also
widescreen one as well using DVI.

As Martin states it is as easy as purchasing a ROOL SD Card and also
purchasing a Raspberry Pi bundle from any number of outlets including
Farnell/CPC and Maplins. Alternatively I sure "he who has everything
in stock" aka CJE can provide for all your needs.

There is a element of having to put the Raspberry Pi in a case and
setting RISC OS up as you would any new RISC OS machine.

If that daunts you then purchase one of the prebuilt Raspberry Pi
options from CJE or why not attend the MUG user group as you are
Midlands based and bring your monitor and we'll try it to be
absolutely sure with one of the members Pi's.

Next MUG meeting on 17th January 2013 - http://mug.riscos.org/

Finally my 11 year old son put his Pi together and started up RISC OS
OK , though he did need a little help from Dad on setting up
networking i.e "how do I get the option up to start networking and set
up DHCP Dad?"

He now happily uses Draw, play Starfighter3000 and uses Netsurf to
browse for things though the usual issue arise when he encounters
anything but a basic website and that isn't the fault of the PI but of
RISC OS in general given it's current development status.

>>> In addition I have the impression that getting Pi to work relies on
>>> having the tools only available in RO 5 machines which I've never seen
>>> except for glimpses at exhibitions 5 or more years ago.

[snip]

> Because I had the impression that you needed hardware to prepare the SD
> card that a PC or MAC user would have, that an RPC user would not.

No that is if you want to use the Raspberry Pi image download and you
get around that by purchasing the SDCard prepared from ROOL.

Anything that runs on a Iyonix mainly runs on the RISC OS 5 Pi version
and is a lot more compatible than a
Beagleboard/ARMini/Pandabaord/ARMMiniX.

As to a hatred of forums etc then I can't help you there though I do
understand people like to do different things but this constant
dilution of expertise in different newsgroup or subscription mail
listings in its self also causes issues with groups being occupied by
different popel and the danger is that helps and support may not be
forthcoming as quickly if the experts don't frequent the list you use.

I hope the previous offers of help give you the faith to try out RISC
OS on a Pi or the offer of help from MUG.

--
See and experience the future using ARM Technology - BeagleBoard -xM,
Cortex A8 and RISC OS 5.19.

[spampling]

In article <52fb78a7...@walkingingermany.invalid>,

Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:
> > It's called MS-Windows, I use a sophisticated download
> > manager called "DownThemAll" in and out of the browser I
> > use for all my stuff.

> Sounds to me like an add-on, not part of the OS itself.

Yup. However for most users they don't know the difference.

> I just click on a link in browser window, and yes, the FF
> download window opens and shows the progress, but if I had
> not configured that window to stay open once the download
> was complete it would close.

> And in any case, that is part of Firefox, not Windows.

Yup, again for most users they don't know the difference.
At work our incidence of faulty users is higher than the faulty hardware
components, but sadly you can't throw them away and get a new one...

--

Steve Pampling

[Peter Young]

On 9 Dec 2012 John <new...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <5f6863fb5...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>, Peter
> Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk> wrote:

>> I also agree that mail readers make a hash of the ROOL
>> forum. However, have a look at Sargasso, from
>> http://zamez.org/sargasso which is a reader of RSS
>> feeds, and which deals very competently with the ROOL
>> feed.

> I've just tried it with the ROOL forums and got "Failed"
> where it should say how many items were waiting and the
> annotation (in unfriendly red letters) "unsupported
> protocol".

Odd! it works for me (ARMini, RISC OS 5.19). In the Sargasso
directory in Boot.Choices, I have a Feeds file, containing the
line:
http://www.riscosopen.org/forum/posts.rss
and that seems to do
the business for me. Could it be one of those RISC OS 6.** things?

[Folderol]

On Sun, 09 Dec 2012 18:47:44 +0000 (GMT)
spampling <spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:

> At work our incidence of faulty users is higher than the faulty hardware
> components, but sadly you can't throw them away and get a new one...

I may steal this :)

--
W J G

[Russell Hafter News]

In article
<mpro.mers6k000...@thesandfords.me.uk>, John

Sandford <li...@thesandfords.me.uk> wrote:

> in XP right click on a folder and choose explore. in 7 or
> 8 right click on file explorer icon on the task bar and
> choose file explorer,in a filer window right click menu
> has a open in new window option.

Thanks - I shall try and remember these.

Trouble is, I use the classic display in my XP and 7
machines, so that new windows open as I expect.

Would be nice, though, to be able to <something> double
click on a folder in order to mulate adjust click under RISC
OS.

[Bruce Goatly]

Russell Hafter News wrote:

> Trouble is, I use the classic display in my XP and 7
> machines, so that new windows open as I expect.
>
> Would be nice, though, to be able to <something> double
> click on a folder in order to mulate adjust click under RISC
> OS.

In XP you can just Ctrl-double-click on a folder to open it and leave the
parent open, or Ctrl-click on the 'Up' icon to open the parent and leave the
child open. Or is that not what was wanted?

(Somewhat off-topic, I know, but the question was raised.)

--
Bruce

[Martin Bazley]

The following bytes were arranged on 9 Dec 2012 by Jim Lesurf :

> RiPi

Why do people keep calling it this? Its name is the Raspberry Pi. One
'i' in it. Unless you think it's called the 'Rispberry Pi', I can't
imagine where you got this abbreviation from.

--
__<^>__
/ _ _ \ It is written that Geeks shall inherit the Earth.

[Chris Shepheard]

In message <52fb8d06...@walkingingermany.invalid>

Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid>
wrote:

> Trouble is, I use the classic display in my XP and 7
> machines, so that new windows open as I expect.

Ever tried holding down CTRL while you double click the folder? It
works on every XP machine I've tried and, I think, my Win 7 Netbook.

Chris

--

Chris Shepheard writing as himself
chris.s...@chrispics.co.uk
from far west Surrey www.chrispics.co.uk

[Alan Calder]

In article <1g7xs.945329$Rc7.5...@fx04.am4>, Bruce Goatly

<s...@goatly.co.uk> wrote:
> Russell Hafter News wrote:

> > Trouble is, I use the classic display in my XP and 7 machines, so that
> > new windows open as I expect.
> >
> > Would be nice, though, to be able to <something> double click on a
> > folder in order to mulate adjust click under RISC OS.

> In XP you can just Ctrl-double-click on a folder to open it and leave
> the parent open, or Ctrl-click on the 'Up' icon to open the parent and
> leave the child open. Or is that not what was wanted?

I can confirm that with XP. Doesn't seem to work with Vista where the
solution for me is Right-click and Open which is almost as quick.

> (Somewhat off-topic, I know, but the question was raised.)

Questions are always worth responding to. I've lost count of the little
wrinkles that I've learnt over the years from reading of-topic posts!

Alan

--
Alan Calder, Milton Keynes, UK.

[John Rickman Iyonix]

Russell Hafter News wrote

> For myself, I am also put off forums by the fact that you
> always have to log in - and so, presumably have created a
> user profile - before contributing.

Most forums that I use allow you to read the posts and only require
login if you wish to contribute to the thread.

[Tony Moore]

On 9 Dec 2012, Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk> wrote:
> On 9 Dec 2012 John <new...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <5f6863fb5...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>, Peter
> > Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > I also agree that mail readers make a hash of the ROOL forum.
> > > However, have a look at Sargasso, from http://zamez.org/sargasso
> > > which is a reader of RSS feeds, and which deals very competently
> > > with the ROOL feed.
>
> > I've just tried it with the ROOL forums and got "Failed" where it
> > should say how many items were waiting and the annotation (in
> > unfriendly red letters) "unsupported protocol".
>
> Odd! it works for me (ARMini, RISC OS 5.19). In the Sargasso
> directory in Boot.Choices, I have a Feeds file, containing the line:
> http://www.riscosopen.org/forum/posts.rss and that seems to do the
> business for me. Could it be one of those RISC OS 6.** things?

Here, that feed works with Sargasso 2.01 running on RO 6.20.

Tony

[spampling]

In article <20121209210438.0db3804b@music>, Folderol <fold...@ukfsn.org>
wrote:

Many years ago I thought "faulty user, replace and try again" was just a
joke. Long past that.

--

Steve Pampling

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <52fb61...@sick-of-spam.invalid>, Bob Latham

<b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
> Am I alone with the feeling that RISC OS has now moved so far from all
> I'm familiar with that it is now more daunting than moving to Windows 7
> or something else main stream?

So far as RO is concerned, you'd have to specify what you mean. Afraid it
isn't clear to me.

What I can't tell from your comment is if something about newer versions of
RO bothers you, or if it something specific to getting it running on an
RiPi as distinct from other hardware.

[snip comment wrt web forums which I also find a PITA to use.]

> Then there is the new language. Almost every post on there is talking
> about things I know nothing about at all, this after decades of using
> RISC OS.

Again, you'd have to be more specific before I could say.

OTOH IIUC the *current* version of RO on RiPi involves a sneaky 'hack' that
means the RO install has to sit in a specific way on an SD card. And has to
be primed to boot into this, etc. I can only guess about that from what
little I've read. But if so, it is really a question of the RiPi rather
than RO per se, I suspect. And again IIUC the current method may be
provisional from some of what I've read.

> How do complete beginners start with Pi from zero base knowledge and no
> RO5?

Most of them will, I imagine, start with Linux. If they want RO I guess
they should contact someone like ROOL or the 'usual sources'. :-) Beyond
that, I guess it is much the same as when people decide to try any 'new'
OS. Can't say I've found web forums much help for any of them. Although an
advantage of Linux here is the sheer number of forum comments, increasing
the chance that one found by a duckduckgo will hit the spot.

Personally, I'm more inclined to proceed with RO on 'updated hardware' by
buying from R-Comp and joining their support scheme. The RiPi looks to me
like a neat way to get more people to find RO exists. How many might find
it makes more sense on something a bit bigger and more expensive is another
matter.

[charles]

In article <52fbc7b309...@btinternet.com>,

I believe it is also referred to by the initials IITC.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <52fb9066ef...@o2.co.uk>, Alan Calder

<alan_...@o2.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <1g7xs.945329$Rc7.5...@fx04.am4>, Bruce
> Goatly <s...@goatly.co.uk> wrote:

> > Russell Hafter News wrote:

> > > Trouble is, I use the classic display in my XP and 7
> > > machines, so that new windows open as I expect.

> > > Would be nice, though, to be able to <something>

> > > double click on a folder in order to emulate adjust

> > > click under RISC OS.

> > In XP you can just Ctrl-double-click on a folder to
> > open it and leave the parent open, or Ctrl-click on the
> > 'Up' icon to open the parent and leave the child open.
> > Or is that not what was wanted?

> I can confirm that with XP. Doesn't seem to work with
> Vista where the solution for me is Right-click and Open
> which is almost as quick.

Strange. I am sure that I have tried all sorts of key +
double click combinations, with no success. BUT...

I have just tried Ctrl-double-click on a folder on XP; this
does more or less what I asked about ie close the parent
window and open the folder clicked on in a new window.
Actually, it displays the content of the sub folder in the
same window.

But Ctrl-double-click on a file has no effect the first time
tried. Repeating opens the file, but does not close the
folder.

As to Ctrl-click on the 'Up' icon I can only say Eh? What is
the 'Up' icon? I would stress again that I use the classic
display, so the only window bar icons are the file or folder
icon to the left and the close, min/max and takbar-ise icons
to the right.

> > (Somewhat off-topic, I know, but the question was
> > raised.)

I thought of it at the time more as a comment (yet again) on
why the RISC OS user interface is so much better than others
I have tried.

> Questions are always worth responding to. I've lost
> count of the little wrinkles that I've learnt over the
> years from reading of-topic posts!

Quite.

[Stuart]

In article <52fb61...@sick-of-spam.invalid>,
Bob Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

> One of the issues for me is the hatred of web forums, to me they're just
> awful compared to usenet and I have tried to stay with it by using the
> RSS feed from RO Open with Hermes and Pluto. To be honest, this is the
> only RSS feed I get which doesn't work well as it is festooned with html
> which makes reading the posts almost impossible.

The thing that puzzles me, is why the clever guys at ROOL, and I have a
huge regard for all of them, should choose such a clumsy vehicle as a
forum for discussion in the first place, when much better methods, such as
a mailing list, already existed.

--
Stuart Winsor

Only plain text for emails
http://www.asciiribbon.org

[John]

In article <cbb489fb5...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>, Peter

Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk> wrote:
> On 9 Dec 2012 John <new...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> > In article <5f6863fb5...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>,
> > Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk> wrote:

> >> I also agree that mail readers make a hash of the ROOL
> >> forum. However, have a look at Sargasso, from
> >> http://zamez.org/sargasso which is a reader of RSS
> >> feeds, and which deals very competently with the ROOL
> >> feed.

> > I've just tried it with the ROOL forums and got
> > "Failed" where it should say how many items were
> > waiting and the annotation (in unfriendly red letters)
> > "unsupported protocol".

> Odd! it works for me (ARMini, RISC OS 5.19). In the
> Sargasso directory in Boot.Choices, I have a Feeds file,
> containing the line:
> http://www.riscosopen.org/forum/posts.rss and that seems
> to do the business for me. Could it be one of those RISC
> OS 6.** things?

Aha! When I copied the URL out of NetSurf, it began with
https:// not http:// - how odd.

No problem now.

[John]

In article
<2c4a95fb52.old_coaster@old_coaster.yahoo.co.uk>, Tony

Moore <old_c...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> > > I've just tried it with the ROOL forums and got
> > > "Failed" where it should say how many items were
> > > waiting and the annotation (in unfriendly red
> > > letters) "unsupported protocol".
> >
> > Odd! it works for me (ARMini, RISC OS 5.19). In the
> > Sargasso directory in Boot.Choices, I have a Feeds
> > file, containing the line:
> > http://www.riscosopen.org/forum/posts.rss and that
> > seems to do the business for me. Could it be one of
> > those RISC OS 6.** things?

> Here, that feed works with Sargasso 2.01 running on RO
> 6.20.

And so it does for me now. See my reply to Peter.

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <52fbd16e...@argonet.co.uk>, Stuart

<Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <52fb61...@sick-of-spam.invalid>, Bob
> Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

> > One of the issues for me is the hatred of web forums,
> > to me they're just awful compared to usenet and I have
> > tried to stay with it by using the RSS feed from RO
> > Open with Hermes and Pluto. To be honest, this is the
> > only RSS feed I get which doesn't work well as it is
> > festooned with html which makes reading the posts
> > almost impossible.

> The thing that puzzles me, is why the clever guys at
> ROOL, and I have a huge regard for all of them, should
> choose such a clumsy vehicle as a forum for discussion in
> the first place, when much better methods, such as a
> mailing list, already existed.

Possible answer 1. Fashion. MLs and NGs are simply old
fashioned. Things should look like or even be webpages.

Possible answer 2. Seemingly, quite a lot of people
(really!!) actually prefer forums.

Some months ago, on an ML run for members of a certain
obscure charitable organisation I got into a heated exchange
with a regular contributor who posted an e-mail asking if it
were possible to bin the ML and set up a proper forum
instead.

You will not be suprised to hear that I replied along the
lines of "AAAAGGHHH, No NOT a forum".

I can only recall two of his many reasons for wanting a
forum:

1. Forums were more organised (!) and it was easier to
exclude rubbish (this on an ML where less than 1% of
postings are spam). There are a *lot* of OT postings, but a
discussion on that more recently showed that most members
were in favour of the type of OT postings made.

2. After a few (quite heated) exchanges on the ML, and no
one else having jumped in, I decided to take the further
exchanges to e-mail. One of the big advantages of a forum,
he asserted, was that taking things to e-mail was not
possible, which was good because taking a discussion out of
the ML was always a very bad idea.

[I accept that taking things to e-mail can sometimes be a
bad idea, but not always. A few months ago I posted a
request for information on buying some spare part I needed.
Within 30mins I had some eight helpful replies, but none of
them were made to list. I posted a 'thank you' to the list,
which then prompted another load of e-mails asking or the
info I had been sent.]
:-)

[Alan Calder]

In article <52fbdc7d...@walkingingermany.invalid>,

Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

> In article <52fbd16e...@argonet.co.uk>, Stuart
> <Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> > In article <52fb61...@sick-of-spam.invalid>, Bob
> > Latham <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:

> > > One of the issues for me is the hatred of web forums,

[Snip]

> > The thing that puzzles me, is why the clever guys at
> > ROOL, and I have a huge regard for all of them, should
> > choose such a clumsy vehicle as a forum for discussion in
> > the first place, when much better methods, such as a
> > mailing list, already existed.

> Possible answer 1. Fashion. MLs and NGs are simply old
> fashioned. Things should look like or even be webpages.

> Possible answer 2. Seemingly, quite a lot of people
> (really!!) actually prefer forums.

> Some months ago, on an ML run for members of a certain
> obscure charitable organisation I got into a heated exchange
> with a regular contributor who posted an e-mail asking if it
> were possible to bin the ML and set up a proper forum
> instead.

There has been a similar kerfuffle over at The Guardian's Comment is Free.
For reasons that have been vaguely expressed, the powers that be decided
that they would change the format from a chronological listing of posts to
a nested listing. Looks very spiffy and webby but wrecks any chance of
following a debate as the first comment can spawn a whole page of responses
and further new comments can just disappear in the morass. The reason
given was that there were potentially hordes of Twitter/Facebook users out
there desperate to comment but found the chronological format too different
from their usual environment and were thus rendered shy.

Protestations and complaints from the regular posters have been ignored in
Olympian fashion.

Alan

[Snip]

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <52fbe17531...@o2.co.uk>, Alan Calder

Not sure what this means, TBH. Presumbly, though, it is
*not* a threaded display?

Chronological listing is IMHO one of the worst aspects of
forums.

Threading was one of (several) things that sold me on Pluto
some 12 years ago...

> Looks very spiffy and webby but wrecks any chance of
> following a debate as the first comment can spawn a whole
> page of responses and further new comments can just
> disappear in the morass. The reason given was that there
> were potentially hordes of Twitter/Facebook users out
> there desperate to comment but found the chronological
> format too different from their usual environment and
> were thus rendered shy.

> Protestations and complaints from the regular posters
> have been ignored in Olympian fashion.

Of course. I know nothing about Twitter/Facebook, apart from
what I have seen on Twitter from Purley Hosting (where the
only tweets of interest were the ones sent by Neil anyway)
and one other business.

[Stuart]

In article <52fbdc7d...@walkingingermany.invalid>,
Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

> 1. Forums were more organised (!) and it was easier to
> exclude rubbish (this on an ML where less than 1% of

> postings are spam). There are a *lot* of OT poatings

That's nonsense!

uk.religion.christian

is a moderated newsgroup which suffers virtually non of the above. When
anyone joins, their first postings are hand moderated before their source
address is passed on to an automatic system. Step out of line and you
quickly find youself back on manual moderation or banned altogether.

The Yahoo 7x12 minilathe mailing list is similarly moderated and the only
Spam I have seen was when someones email account got hacked.

[Theo Markettos]

Stuart <Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> The thing that puzzles me, is why the clever guys at ROOL, and I have a
> huge regard for all of them, should choose such a clumsy vehicle as a
> forum for discussion in the first place, when much better methods, such as
> a mailing list, already existed.

I don't speak for ROOL, and I know nothing about why that decision was
taken, but:

1. People are, these days, used to forums
2. Forums are easy to join. Registration is a pain, I agree, but you only
do it once (per forum). Single-signon registation (one login shared between
multiple sites - eg OpenID or Facebook) makes this easier. There's no
software to configure or servers to find. News gets a bit awkward over
multiple servers (some clients cope, others don't).
3. Forums require no ongoing commitment. You can sign up, post something,
and walk away. Better forums will let you know if someone replies to your
post. Mailing lists give you a constant stream of stuff you have to filter.
4. Forums are easily indexed by Google. Mailing lists only get searched when
someone sets up a web interface, and Google Groups for newsgroups is quite
broken
5. Forums are easy to split into sub-forums. For example, sites like
modaco.com have forums for every Android phone, and then sub-forums within
that. Signing up and filtering a hundred separate mailing lists for every
site would be painful.
6. Forums are good for low traffic topics. For example, a bug report from
2007 might get picked up by someone replying to the thread. It would be
awkward to do that on a mailing list that you weren't subscribed to at the
time.
7. Forums work on any platform, on any network, as long as it has a browser.
Mail and news require you to sit at the machine you've configured.

Of course web2mail and web2news interfaces exist, but that makes mail and
news just look like a forum.


What I'd really like is better gatewaying between formats. My favourite
format is Usenet, but I want to access content in other forms. Usenet is a
pain to navigate on a phone, so a web interface would be better. I read
mailing lists as newsgroups via a mail to news gateway, but this is messy
to set up so there's a barrier to adding more, and it interacts poorly with
spam controls (each list is subscribed to a different address, which I have
to fake up to post). GMane is interesting here, but I haven't used it
much. I also have limited RSS->News gateways - but often you only get
headlines, not full article content.

Hmm... I wonder if a Facebook to news app might be feasible? <evil thought>

Theo

[Alan Calder]

In article <52fbe41e...@walkingingermany.invalid>,

Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:
> In article <52fbe17531...@o2.co.uk>, Alan Calder
> <alan_...@o2.co.uk> wrote:

> > In article <52fbdc7d...@walkingingermany.invalid>,
> > Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid>
> > wrote:

[Snip]

> > > Possible answer 1. Fashion. MLs and NGs are simply old
> > > fashioned. Things should look like or even be webpages.

> > > Possible answer 2. Seemingly, quite a lot of people
> > > (really!!) actually prefer forums.

[Snip]

> > There has been a similar kerfuffle over at The Guardian's
> > Comment is Free. For reasons that have been vaguely
> > expressed, the powers that be decided that they would
> > change the format from a chronological listing of posts
> > to a nested listing.

> Not sure what this means, TBH. Presumbly, though, it is
> *not* a threaded display?

Ah, it means that postings to a thread are listed chronologically as they
come in. So if you make the first response to the article the thread is
about then your post appears at the top of the list. Further responses
either to the article or to your post appear in the list in the order in
which they appear. This makes it easy to read through a whole debate on
the thread sequentially and also allows easy reference back to earlier
posts and to the latest post.

Nested listing means that each post is essentially a sub-thread of its own
and can grow enormously, subverting the possibility of reading the whole
thread sequentially. Since responses to posts are no longer part of the
main thread then it is very difficult to follow the development of a debate
and it is impossible to know where the latest post actually is.

The effect is to produce lots of 'one-off' posts and for posters to only
look at replies to their own posts - a very Twittery/Facebooky situation.

For example, here is one of today's threads:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/10/doha-climate-talks-global-warming

And here is an old one:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/poll/2012/sep/27/driverless-car-google

The 'furniture' around each post on a thread is much the same but you can
see the difference in the way the posts appear. The current example is
young and not had a lot of activity so it doesn't show how bad the
sub'thread problem can be.

> Threading was one of (several) things that sold me on Pluto
> some 12 years ago...

Ditto. Sadly that simplicity has been abandoned by the Guardian. Many of
the regular posters have departed for pastures new.

All very O/T!

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <d1C*nQ...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,

Theo Markettos <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Stuart <Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > The thing that puzzles me, is why the clever guys at ROOL, and I have a
> > huge regard for all of them, should choose such a clumsy vehicle as a
> > forum for discussion in the first place, when much better methods, such as
> > a mailing list, already existed.

> I don't speak for ROOL, and I know nothing about why that decision was
> taken, but:

> 1. People are, these days, used to forums

We are also "used to" the common cold, road crashes, etc. Not sure what
being "used to" has to do with being a reason for or against forums,
though... :-)

> 3. Forums require no ongoing commitment. You can sign up, post
> something, and walk away.

Yes, looking at them I often have the feeling that many of those posting to
them regard a forum as a "write only" medium. :-)

[spampling]

In article <52fbd16e...@argonet.co.uk>, Stuart
<Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <52fb61...@sick-of-spam.invalid>, Bob Latham
> <b...@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
> > One of the issues for me is the hatred of web forums, to me they're
> > just awful compared to usenet and I have tried to stay with it by
> > using the RSS feed from RO Open with Hermes and Pluto. To be honest,
> > this is the only RSS feed I get which doesn't work well as it is
> > festooned with html which makes reading the posts almost impossible.

> The thing that puzzles me, is why the clever guys at ROOL, and I have a
> huge regard for all of them, should choose such a clumsy vehicle as a
> forum for discussion in the first place, when much better methods, such
> as a mailing list, already existed.

Wild guesses:
1. The RAILS setup in use does many things, including the forum, but
doesn't support a mailing list.
2. Any browser seems to be the requirement for access. Netsurf and Firefox
on RPC, beagleboard, PeeCee, and Linux that I know of as well as the mobile
phone smartphone used by people like Rick Murray (yes - HeyRick...)
Encouraging browser based access also encourages the use of the same
access software as is used for the update of the wiki pages - and updates
to those are coming from the user base rather than the ROOL programmers.
There is a lot more information "out there" regarding RISC OS than most
people really appreciate and it isn't all correct and very little is up to
date.
Perhaps an informed RISC OS user or two updating the pages out there would
be a good idea? Rick did a few edits the other day:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RISC_OS

3. Mailing lists tend to have limitations like not accepting images.

--

Steve Pampling

[spampling]

In article <52fb770...@audiomisc.co.uk>, Jim Lesurf

<no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
> OTOH IIUC the *current* version of RO on RiPi involves a sneaky 'hack'
> that means the RO install has to sit in a specific way on an SD card.
> And has to be primed to boot into this, etc. I can only guess about that
> from what little I've read.

Pretty much irrelevant if the user has bought a boot SD card from ROOL
(since the RPi is just another interesting linux/android device without
that RISC OS copy I suspect most users would buy the card as part of the
general purchase package)

Updates to the installed ROM image are pretty straight forward and moving
toward a package delivery.

> But if so, it is really a question of the RiPi rather than RO per se, I
> suspect.

The SD card image on the other board types is updatable by the user as a
simple file copy.

> And again IIUC the current method may be provisional from some of what
> I've read.

see Package delivery comment.

For the truly nervous: contact your local user group and work with them on
a simple A,B,C install or update.

--

Steve Pampling

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <52fbfefa4e...@btinternet.com>, spampling

<spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:

> 3. Mailing lists tend to have limitations like not
> accepting images.

As far as Yahoo groups that is configurable. Of the non
computing MLs I subscribe to, one rips off all attachments,
including HTML multipart/alternative versions of the e-mail,
and puts a statement that non-text portions of the e-mail
have been removed at the end of the posting, the other
permits all types of attachments, including images, word
docs and pdfs, such as the minutes of meetings.

That said, what appears to happen now is that while HTML
multipart/alternative versions of the e-mail are allowed
through, attachments of the type described are held on the
Yahoo server, with appropriate links being inserted at the
bottom of the e-mail.

Once you get used to it, quite a good system - I can avoid
those attachments that do not interest me, and easily get
those that do.

[Stuart]

In article <52fc06fd...@walkingingermany.invalid>,

Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

> As far as Yahoo groups that is configurable.

The Yahoo groups I subscribe to, such as the 7x12 minilathe group, have
areas to which files can be uploaded to for viewing by others.

However a lot of people simply upload images to the likes of Photobucket
and provide a link.

[Steve Fryatt]

On 10 Dec, John wrote in message
<52fbd848...@blueyonder.co.uk>:

> Aha! When I copied the URL out of NetSurf, it began with https:// not
> http:// - how odd.

ROOL's site always uses HTTPS, and HTTP just redirects to the former.

--
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England

http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/

[Steve Fryatt]

On 10 Dec, Jim Lesurf wrote in message
<52fbf30...@audiomisc.co.uk>:

> In article <d1C*nQ...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
> Theo Markettos <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
> > 1. People are, these days, used to forums
>
> We are also "used to" the common cold, road crashes, etc.

People on other platforms, such as those who've found RISC OS on the RPi.
You know: those people we'd like to attract in.

[spampling]

In article <mpro.meu7zu05...@stevefryatt.org.uk>,

Steve Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
> ou know: those people we'd like to attract in.

You mean pretty much anyone...?

--

Steve Pampling

[spampling]

In article <52fc1001...@argonet.co.uk>,

Stuart <Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> The Yahoo groups I subscribe to, such as the 7x12 minilathe group, have
> areas to which files can be uploaded to for viewing by others.

As opposed to embedded in the text and displayed in web page fashion.

> However a lot of people simply upload images to the likes of Photobucket
> and provide a link.

That can be done too. Choices.

--

Steve Pampling

[druck]

On 10/12/2012 15:47, Jim Lesurf wrote:
> In article <d1C*nQ...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
> Theo Markettos <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> 1. People are, these days, used to forums
>
> We are also "used to" the common cold, road crashes, etc. Not sure what
> being "used to" has to do with being a reason for or against forums,
> though... :-)

I think you are assuming the horrid tedious process of viewing and
contributing to web forums with inadequate, slow and antiquated web
browsers on inadequate, slow and antiquated RISC OS hardware, also
applies to other platforms - IT DOES NOT.

People using Firefox or Chrome etc on reasonably performing modern
hardware, whether it be running Windows, Linux or Mac, are presented
with a rich interface supporting posts with different font styles,
allowing the embedding of pictures, video and other media. The
experience is fluid and visually appealing, unlike flat ASCII newsgroups
or having unwanted content pushed down to everyone on a mailing list.

Web forums have their place, but if you are using NetSurf, unfinished
ports of Firefox 2, abandoned Oreganos, or pre-historic Fresco - you are
best off sticking to plain text.

---druck

[Vince M Hudd]

druck <ne...@druck.org.uk> wrote:

[...]

> People using Firefox or Chrome etc on reasonably performing modern
> hardware, whether it be running Windows, Linux or Mac, are presented with
> a rich interface supporting posts with different font styles, allowing the
> embedding of pictures, video and other media. The experience is fluid and
> visually appealing, unlike flat ASCII newsgroups or having unwanted
> content pushed down to everyone on a mailing list.

And yet, strangely, though I use Firefox and Chrome (and sometimes even etc)
on very well performing modern hardware, I still prefer newsgroups and
mailing lists (which I also read on very well performing modern hardware,
and not on any of my RISC OS systems).

Funny that.

Anyone would think you're just making assumptions about what people use,
based on the groups they read, and from that why their preferences are what
they are.

Either that, or I'm just a weirdo - which is, of course, entirely possible.
Some might say even probable.

--
Soft Rock Software: http://www.softrock.co.uk
Vince M Hudd: http://misc.vinceh.com/about-vinceh/
RISCOSitory: http://www.riscository.com

[John]

In article
<mpro.meu84l06...@stevefryatt.org.uk>, Steve

Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
> On 10 Dec, John wrote in message
> <52fbd848...@blueyonder.co.uk>:

> > Aha! When I copied the URL out of NetSurf, it began
> > with https:// not http:// - how odd.

> ROOL's site always uses HTTPS, and HTTP just redirects to
> the former.

Thanks for that explanation Steve. However, I'm now puzzled
by the fact that the feed downloads successfully when
redirected but not when Sargasso's Choices file has the
https link which bypasses redirection. I suspect that this
is due to a shortcoming in my understanding of how things
work in this area but I'd be more than happy to be
corrected on this point.

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <ka74b0$i4h$1...@dont-email.me>, druck

<ne...@druck.org.uk> wrote:

> On 10/12/2012 15:47, Jim Lesurf wrote:

> > In article <d1C*nQ...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>,
> > Theo Markettos <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
> > wrote:

> >> 1. People are, these days, used to forums

> > We are also "used to" the common cold, road crashes,
> > etc. Not sure what being "used to" has to do with being
> > a reason for or against forums, though... :-)

> I think

Sory, but you think wrong.

> you are assuming the horrid tedious process of
> viewing and contributing to web forums with inadequate,
> slow and antiquated web browsers on inadequate, slow and
> antiquated RISC OS hardware, also applies to other
> platforms - IT DOES NOT.

> People using Firefox

Using rhe latest version of Firefox (curently 17.0.1) under
XP

> or Chrome etc on reasonably performing modern hardware,

the box plays back TV programs in i-Player fine - I would
assume that that counts as "reasonably performing modern
hardware"

> whether it be running Windows, Linux or Mac, are
> presented with a rich interface

Which is part of the problem. I do not, and I suspect others
also do not, want a "rich interface" (and what a horrible
use of language that is!).

Flashing and winking gonks at the start of a post simply
distract from the text one is trying to read.

> supporting posts with different font styles, allowing the
> embedding of pictures, video and other media. The
> experience is fluid and visually appealing,

Really?? "visually appealing" - I think not.

> unlike flat ASCII newsgroups or having unwanted content
> pushed down to everyone on a mailing list.

How much time does it take to quickly scan the the first few
lines of a mailing list or newsgroup post? Or, if necessary,
to killfile a poster?

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <mpro.meu7zu05...@stevefryatt.org.uk>, Steve Fryatt

<ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
> On 10 Dec, Jim Lesurf wrote in message <52fbf30...@audiomisc.co.uk>:

> > In article <d1C*nQ...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Theo Markettos
> > <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > 1. People are, these days, used to forums
> >
> > We are also "used to" the common cold, road crashes, etc.

> People on other platforms, such as those who've found RISC OS on the
> RPi. You know: those people we'd like to attract in.

Which is fine as a reason for a forum. But not as a 'reason' for no
alternatives being available.

[druck]

On 11 Dec 2012 Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid>
wrote:

> How much time does it take to quickly scan the the first few
> lines of a mailing list or newsgroup post? Or, if necessary,
> to killfile a poster?

Lets see... oow, that was quick!

---druck

--
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
32 bit Conversions Page - http://www.armclub.org.uk/32bit/

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts]

Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

> ... Which is part of the problem. I do not, and I suspect others also do

> not, want a "rich interface" (and what a horrible use of language that
> is!).
>
> Flashing and winking gonks at the start of a post simply distract from the
> text one is trying to read.

On the other hand intelligent use of colour and fonts eg to embolden some
text can be useful.

Prresumably you don't only read travel brochures that are printed in one
font with no colour etc?

--
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Email sent to my from-address will be deleted. Instead, please reply
to newsre...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk replacing "aaa" by "284".

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <ka74b0$i4h$1...@dont-email.me>, druck <ne...@druck.org.uk> wrote:

> On 10/12/2012 15:47, Jim Lesurf wrote:
> > In article <d1C*nQ...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Theo Markettos
> > <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> >> 1. People are, these days, used to forums
> >
> > We are also "used to" the common cold, road crashes, etc. Not sure
> > what being "used to" has to do with being a reason for or against
> > forums, though... :-)

> I think you are assuming the horrid tedious process of viewing and
> contributing to web forums with inadequate, slow and antiquated web
> browsers on inadequate, slow and antiquated RISC OS hardware, also
> applies to other platforms - IT DOES NOT.

I think you may not have noticed that I also use Linux machines with
FireFox. So your assertion about me starts with a false assumption, based
on ignorance. Hardly surprising that it then goes on to conclusion that is
irrelevant in my case. Your guesswork does not touch on the reasons I
dislike forums in general. And which others have also commented upon.

What you should perhaps bear in mind is that others may sometimes have
views, preferences, and requirements that differ from your own. Even if you
don't know or understand them. :-)

BTW please also note that I'm NOT saying no-one should ever use a forum. If
that is their preference (ideally based on also checking out alternatives)
good luck to them. My point is that I simply prefer usenet or email lists
for various purposes, and would hope others were open-minded enough to
allow for them to be available *as well as* forums. Then we can each choose
as we prefer, rather than being told we are 'wrong'.

> Web forums have their place, but if you are using NetSurf, unfinished
> ports of Firefox 2, abandoned Oreganos, or pre-historic Fresco - you are
> best off sticking to plain text.

Actually I prefer NetSurf for a lot of browsing. Just as I also use FF for
other browsing. It seems fine to me that I and others have the freedom to
chose as *we* prefer rather than being told by others what to do. If anyone
else has a problem with that, then the problem isn't mine. My thanks go to
the developers of both browsers, as they do to the developers of both RO
and Linux. :-)

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <mpro.mev6q0000...@softrock.co.uk>, Vince M Hudd

<vin...@softrock.co.uk> wrote:
> druck <ne...@druck.org.uk> wrote:

> [...]
>
> > People using Firefox or Chrome etc on reasonably performing modern
> > hardware, whether it be running Windows, Linux or Mac, are presented
> > with a rich interface supporting posts with different font styles,
> > allowing the embedding of pictures, video and other media. The
> > experience is fluid and visually appealing, unlike flat ASCII
> > newsgroups or having unwanted content pushed down to everyone on a
> > mailing list.

> And yet, strangely, though I use Firefox and Chrome (and sometimes even
> etc) on very well performing modern hardware, I still prefer newsgroups
> and mailing lists (which I also read on very well performing modern
> hardware, and not on any of my RISC OS systems).

> Funny that.

I seem to be a comedian of a similar ilk to yourself. And from other
discussions it seems we are not totally alone. :-)

[Theo Markettos]

Jim Lesurf <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
> Which is fine as a reason for a forum. But not as a 'reason' for no
> alternatives being available.

There is, of course, nothing stopping you from setting up your own mailing
list, newsgroup, gopher server or chain letter if you wish. The main thing
is to have enough input from people who are able to make useful
contributions. We're already suffering from the problem that most of the
knowledgeable people are on the ROOL forum, and the new users on the
Raspberry Pi forum, and limited crossover between the two.

So if a new medium will sustain enough people to answer the questions that
are asked (some of which are Pi-specific and not always answerable by a
regular RISC OS user - eg 'I can't make I2C work'), that's great. If it
will only serve to fragment the existing discussions then that would seem to
make things worse. Medium should, after all, be secondary to content.

Theo

[Martin Bazley]

The following bytes were arranged on 11 Dec 2012 by Jim Lesurf :

> In article <mpro.meu7zu05...@stevefryatt.org.uk>, Steve Fryatt
> <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
> > On 10 Dec, Jim Lesurf wrote in message <52fbf30...@audiomisc.co.uk>:
>
> > > In article <d1C*nQ...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Theo Markettos
> > > <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> > >
> > > > 1. People are, these days, used to forums
> > >
> > > We are also "used to" the common cold, road crashes, etc.
>
> > People on other platforms, such as those who've found RISC OS on the
> > RPi. You know: those people we'd like to attract in.
>
> Which is fine as a reason for a forum. But not as a 'reason' for no
> alternatives being available.

"I only liked RISC OS before it got popular. Now it's sooo
mainstream..."

--
__<^>__
/ _ _ \ It is written that Geeks shall inherit the Earth.
( ( |_| ) )
\_> <_/ ======================= Martin Bazley ==========================

[Russell Hafter News]

In article
<mpro.mevc0c...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk.invalid>,
Jeremy Nicoll - news posts

<jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:
> Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid>
> wrote:

> > ... Which is part of the problem. I do not, and I
> > suspect others also do not, want a "rich interface"
> > (and what a horrible use of language that is!).

> > Flashing and winking gonks at the start of a post
> > simply distract from the text one is trying to read.

> On the other hand intelligent use of colour and fonts eg
> to embolden some text can be useful.

I think you will find that the vast majority of publications
stick to one font for all body text, with perhaps judicious
use of bold or italics, but **still the same font.**

Equally, use of colour (not talking about pictures here)
also needs to be restrained, or your document starts to look
like something produced by a 3-year old.

Different font often for headlines and straplines, yes.

> Prresumably you don't only read travel brochures that are
> printed in one font with no colour etc?

A couple of years ago the city of Würzburg brought out a
glossy and expensively produced A4 brochure with a cover in
a dark shade of crimson. The designer had the brilliant idea
of putting the name of the city across the front cover in
marginally darker crimson. You needed to have it pointed out
to you before you could see it (might have been a little
more obvious in bright sunlight, though.)

These days I do not read competitors brochures, just my own.
:-)

[charles]

In article <52fc76af...@walkingingermany.invalid>,

I come acros many designs for posters which look wonderful on the screen
but don't work on paper. Funny that the designers never seem to bother to
look at the end product the way the intender reader will see it.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

[Vince M Hudd]

Theo Markettos <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

> Jim Lesurf <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
> > Which is fine as a reason for a forum. But not as a 'reason' for no
> > alternatives being available.

> There is, of course, nothing stopping you from setting up your own mailing
> list, newsgroup, gopher server or chain letter if you wish. The main
> thing is to have enough input from people who are able to make useful
> contributions.

[...]

Which is pretty much the main stumbling block, and the reason I haven't
[yet] set up such a list on RISCOSitory.co.uk. When I was originally asked
if I would do so, I explained my doubts about the worth of doing so, though
I did bring the subject up on the ROOL forums for further discussion (and
what little there was just confirmed my own thoughts, IIRC).

The subject came up again (as someone else mentioned earlier in this thread
IIRC) on the Archive mailing list, and I commented at the time that some of
the software supplied on the Nut Pi SD Card might provide a simple (if
crude) way to take the RSS feed and turn it into mailing list posts. I have
the card now, but I've not installed the software, so I haven't investigated
this possibility*.

Even when I do look at it further, it'll only be a half-way solution: the
problem will remain that people might post questions on such a mailing list,
that those who can answer will never see, because they're on the forum, not
the list.

* I am currently doing as little as I can get away with, having recently
discovered my blood pressure was ridiculously high. It's still high, though
nowhere near the levels it was - but while it's still too high, the cause
remains unknown, and the doctors are still prodding and poking me, I'll
stick to doing so little. (This is also why RISCOSitory.com hasn't seen any
updates recently.)

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <mpro.mevc0c...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk.invalid>, Jeremy
Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:

> Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

> > ... Which is part of the problem. I do not, and I suspect others also
> > do not, want a "rich interface" (and what a horrible use of language
> > that is!).
> >
> > Flashing and winking gonks at the start of a post simply distract from
> > the text one is trying to read.

> On the other hand intelligent use of colour and fonts eg to embolden
> some text can be useful.

The snag being that what one person may think "intelligent" may mean it
becomes unintelligible to someone else. Vision is something that varies a
great deal from one person to another. And I don't just mean personal
taste. I mean the physiological behaviour of individual vision.

The initial idea of HTML was to allow scope for the individual user to set
how they got to view the content.

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <b1C*2m...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Theo Markettos

<theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Jim Lesurf <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
> > Which is fine as a reason for a forum. But not as a 'reason' for no
> > alternatives being available.

> There is, of course, nothing stopping you from setting up your own
> mailing list, newsgroup, gopher server or chain letter if you wish.

Short response:

That reminds me of the old joke. Someone speaks in Japanese to the person
beside. The person addressed - who does not speak Japanese - responds,
"That's easy for *you* to say!". :-)

Yes, there is nothing stopping me apart, of course, from the usual
suspects... cf below.

Longer and more targetted response:

Since the primary object of this thread is the RPi I joined the responses
here because I'd had an interest in getting and using an RPi. This was for
quite specific reasons. I was interested in the idea of using one as an
audio player (and perhaps recorder). In the main, my interest was doing
this when running RO since my Linux boxes work fine for audio. But Linux
might also have been nice.

However my forum and web searches provided conflicting, incomplete, and
patchy info on if this was even possible, let alone give decent results.
Down to the level of not being even able to tell if the relevant hardware
interfaces *were* present on the IO header. I asked in various other
places, but got no clear and definative response on this.

The question in my mind then became, would it be worth the effort of
setting up an email list if the answer was 'no', and I then lost any
interest in the RPi? I decided not.

I'm quite pleased that many people have taken to the RPi, and that some
will use it to discover or use RO. Good luck to them. And if anything I
write or do helps them (e.g. via Archive) I'll be pleased.

But for me it now looks simpler and more productive to put something like
the ARMiniX in the frame as my next hardware for RO. Partly because it is
presumably more capable all around than RPi, partly because it comes from a
well-known RO supporting 'house', partly because they provide a support
scheme which I think will prove more accessible and useful for me than the
RPi forums.

Given this, at present, "I cannae be bothered, pal" is my feeling wrt
trying to set up my own email list for RO+RPi. Not seen any sign it would
be worth the effort. The self-fulfilling paradox may, of course, be that if
the forums, etc, *had* given me the info I was looking for I might well
have decided it was worth trying to set up an email list. As it is, I think
I can see an alternative course which suits me better. However I do have
the feeling this could be a missed opportunity as RPi+RO as a cheap simple
'DIY' audio device strikes me as a neat idea that may attract users.

That said, if someone else does set up an RPi+RO list, I'd almost certainly
join it. And - even if I didn't get an RPi myself - if any questions came
up I could help with, I'd be happy to try and provide helpful responses.
However, again, at present I don't even know if my existing software works
OK on an RPi.

> The main thing is to have enough input from people who are able to make
> useful contributions. We're already suffering from the problem that
> most of the knowledgeable people are on the ROOL forum, and the new
> users on the Raspberry Pi forum, and limited crossover between the two.

Looking at that another way, maybe an email list is a place they could
share as common ground. :-)

> So if a new medium will sustain enough people to answer the questions
> that are asked (some of which are Pi-specific and not always answerable
> by a regular RISC OS user - eg 'I can't make I2C work'), that's great.
> If it will only serve to fragment the existing discussions then that
> would seem to make things worse. Medium should, after all, be secondary
> to content.

Agreed. FWIW since I do use Linux as well as RO I'd much prefer a place
where both OS were involved, and covered the hardware in depth as well as
software.

[Matthew Phillips]

In message <52fbdc7d...@walkingingermany.invalid>
on 10 Dec 2012 Russell Hafter News wrote:

> In article <52fbd16e...@argonet.co.uk>, Stuart

> <Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > The thing that puzzles me, is why the clever guys at ROOL, and I have a
> > huge regard for all of them, should choose such a clumsy vehicle as a
> > forum for discussion in the first place, when much better methods, such
> > as a mailing list, already existed.
>

> Possible answer 1. Fashion. MLs and NGs are simply old fashioned. Things
> should look like or even be webpages.
>
> Possible answer 2. Seemingly, quite a lot of people (really!!) actually
> prefer forums.
>
> Some months ago, on an ML run for members of a certain obscure charitable
> organisation I got into a heated exchange with a regular contributor who
> posted an e-mail asking if it were possible to bin the ML and set up a
> proper forum instead.

You have to bear in mind that most PC users reading mailing lists will be
doing so with software which does not allow for any form of threading, or if
it does they won't have got it set up.

If you're used to reading Usenet with Pluto or Messenger then having
all the discussion arranged and presented by topic doesn't seem such an
incredible advance.

The biggest problem I have with the ROOL forums is knowing what I have
read already. The system remembers when I last logged in and can show me
which threads have new items in, but if I don't have time to read all of them
(and it has got quite busy lately) next time I go back I've lost where I got
up to.

--
Matthew Phillips
Durham

[Steve Drain]

Matthew Phillips wrote:
> The biggest problem I have with the ROOL forums is knowing what I have
> read already. The system remembers when I last logged in and can show me
> which threads have new items in, but if I don't have time to read all of them
> (and it has got quite busy lately) next time I go back I've lost where I got
> up to.

I am not a great fan of forums over newsgroups, for reasons already
mentioned, but I bow to the majority.

I use Thunderbird these days and have an RSS feed from the ROOL Recent
Posts. I rarely read them from there, but I get a good indication of
what I have not read and the start of each message. I couple that with
regularly deleting posts to keep the list short.

If I want, I can read a topic in TB itself by double clicking on a
message, but I usually go to Firefox for that.

I have a similar set up for the Pi blogs and forums.

Steve

[spampling]

In article <ka74b0$i4h$1...@dont-email.me>,
druck <ne...@druck.org.uk> wrote:

> I think you are assuming the horrid tedious process of viewing and
> contributing to web forums with inadequate, slow and antiquated web
> browsers on inadequate, slow and antiquated RISC OS hardware, also
> applies to other platforms - IT DOES NOT.

[Snip]

> Web forums have their place, but if you are using NetSurf, unfinished
> ports of Firefox 2, abandoned Oreganos, or pre-historic Fresco - you are
> best off sticking to plain text.

Seems to work OK on NetSurf on a beagleboard and a simple test post to the
ROOL forum just now. So I think the specific browser just might not be the
problem: i.e. the antiquated hardware might be.
Note: The laptop PC with Firefox and the beagle with NetSurf don't seem
appreciably different in response times, despite the rather higher clock
rate of the laptop CPU.

--

Steve Pampling

[spampling]

In article <52fc667...@audiomisc.co.uk>,

Jim Lesurf <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
> Actually I prefer NetSurf for a lot of browsing.

Which is handy because NetSurf works just fine with the ROOL forums. :-)
Oh, and it works faster on the Pi and Beagleboard than it does on the older
kit.

--

Steve Pampling

[spampling]

In article <9be174fc...@blueyonder.co.uk>,

Martin Bazley <martin...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> "I only liked RISC OS before it got popular. Now it's sooo
> mainstream..."

:-)

--

Steve Pampling

[Jess]

In message <bf1e8efb...@blueyonder.co.uk>
Martin Bazley <martin...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> The following bytes were arranged on 9 Dec 2012 by Jim Lesurf :

>> RiPi

> Why do people keep calling it this? Its name is the Raspberry Pi. One
> 'i' in it. Unless you think it's called the 'Rispberry Pi', I can't
> imagine where you got this abbreviation from.


Surely RiPi is an abbreviation of RISC OS on Pi? Not the hardware.

--
Jess Iyonix

[spampling]

In article <e3398df...@itworkshop.invalid>,

Not really - ROPi would be RISC OS on Pi (or possibly it need to be ROoPi)

I put RiPi down to qwertyuiop and no checks before sending

--

Steve Pampling

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <52fee4dd47...@btinternet.com>, spampling

Actually I used the term for various reasons. It seemed to me better to
associate something as being 'ripping' rather than 'ropey', for example.
:-) Afraid I didn't realise anyone would sake such a trivial matter as
being worth comment. But then I'd perhaps forgotten the full implication of
this being a computing group. ;->

[JTM]

In article <52fee95...@audiomisc.co.uk>, Jim Lesurf

<no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
> Afraid I didn't realise anyone would sake such a trivial
> matter as being worth comment. But then I'd perhaps
> forgotten the full implication of this being a computing
> group. ;->

Not *just* a computing group.I haven't noticed people
coming to blows about the spelling form of Mac os, or Ios,
psion or 'nix - but anyone mentioning riscos had better be
thick skinned. At the same time some of these folk seemed
quite happy running down Mickey $oft (or slop) and loads of
variations

John

[David Holden]

On 16-Dec-2012, JTM <usen...@free.fr> wrote:

> Not *just* a computing group.I haven't noticed people
> coming to blows about the spelling form of Mac os, or Ios,
> psion or 'nix - but anyone mentioning riscos had better be
> thick skinned. At the same time some of these folk seemed
> quite happy running down Mickey $oft (or slop) and loads of
> variations

That's because you don't appreciate that for some people RISC OS isn't just
an OS, it's a religion, and some of these are serious fundamentalists :-O

--
David Holden - APDL - <http://www.apdl.co.uk>

[spampling]

In article <52fee95...@audiomisc.co.uk>, Jim Lesurf
<no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:

> But then I'd perhaps forgotten the full implication of this being a
> computing group. ;->

Insistence on precision? :-)

--

Steve Pampling

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <52ff0b07ec...@btinternet.com>, spampling

Nit-picking recursions. :-)

[Tim Hill]

In article <52fbcf02...@charleshope.demon.co.uk>, charles
<cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <52fbc7b309...@btinternet.com>, spampling
> <spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > In article <20121209210438.0db3804b@music>, Folderol
> > <fold...@ukfsn.org> wrote:
> > > On Sun, 09 Dec 2012 18:47:44 +0000 (GMT) spampling
> > > <spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:

> > > > At work our incidence of faulty users is higher than the faulty
> > > > hardware components, but sadly you can't throw them away and get
> > > > a new one...

> > > I may steal this :)

> > Many years ago I thought "faulty user, replace and try again" was
> > just a joke. Long past that.

> I believe it is also referred to by the initials IITC.

For vehicles, it's the nut behind the wheel of course.

--
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Share in a better energy supplier: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg
* Share in cheaper ethical telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/

[Tim Hill]

In article <1g7xs.945329$Rc7.5...@fx04.am4>, Bruce Goatly
<s...@goatly.co.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

> In XP you can just Ctrl-double-click on a folder to open it and leave
> the parent open,

That works in W7 too. I'm going to file that under 'learn something new
every day'.

The other day I learnt that <Ctrl><Click> on an iMac mono-buttoned mouse
is equivalent to a right-click. But then I don't use a mac often, but
daughter does.

--
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Share in a better energy supplier: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg
* Share in cheaper ethical telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/

Batman: "Remember the Boy Scouts' motto." Robin: "'Be prepared'." Batman: "It would do well to keep that in mind at all times."

[John Sandford]

Tim Hill <t...@invalid.org.uk> wrote:

> In article <1g7xs.945329$Rc7.5...@fx04.am4>, Bruce Goatly
> <s...@goatly.co.uk> wrote:
>
> [Snip]
>
> > In XP you can just Ctrl-double-click on a folder to open it and leave
> > the parent open,
>
> That works in W7 too. I'm going to file that under 'learn something new
> every day'.

And Windows 8

John


--
John Sandford
home

[Jess]

In message <52fee4dd47...@btinternet.com>

RIsc os on PI and similar feel to WiFi etc.

However I have also seen PiRO, which is good

--
Jess Iyonix

[Jess]

In message <52ff0b07ec...@btinternet.com>

Isn't it down to habits created due to there being another RISC OS
(RISC/os ?) which was totally unrelated, and incorrect capitalization
could cause ambiguity?

--
Jess Iyonix

[Richard Torrens (News)]

In article <52fb79ea...@walkingingermany.invalid>,

Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

> For myself, I am also put off forums by the fact that you
> always have to log in - and so, presumably have created a
> user profile - before contributing.

I never liked forums.

Then I tried running one. Got it set up. just about.

This was a genealogy forum - to potentially replace a mailing list. Once
it was running I put it to the vote. The general consensus was they wer
happy with the list. So I let it be. Didn't close the forum.

Shortly, it was crawling with spammers.

Running a mailiing listis hugely easier.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Torrens. News email address is valid - for a limited time only.
http://www.Torrens.org.uk for genealogy, natural history, wild food, walks, cats
and more!

[Richard Torrens (News)]

In article <aj6bk0...@mid.individual.net>,

David Holden <Spa...@apdl.co.uk> wrote:
> That's because you don't appreciate that for some people RISC OS isn't just
> an OS, it's a religion, and some of these are serious fundamentalists :-O

Found that out when I set up the StrongEd mailing list.

Loud shouts of "StrongED"!

[Ste (news)]

In article <52fee4dd47...@btinternet.com>,
spampling <spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:

> Not really - ROPi would be RISC OS on Pi (or possibly it need to be ROoPi)

FWIW, we've been calling it ROPi within ROOL, because the name we adopted
for the distro was RISC OS Pi (and to complement NutPi). Not that it really
matters, of course!

Ta,

Steve

--
Steve Revill @ Home
Note: All opinions expressed herein are my own.

[Chris Evans]

In article <52ff7cd...@revi11.plus.com>, Ste (news)

<URL:mailto:st...@revi11.plus.com> wrote:
> In article <52fee4dd47...@btinternet.com>,
> spampling <spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > Not really - ROPi would be RISC OS on Pi (or possibly it need to be ROoPi)
>
> FWIW, we've been calling it ROPi within ROOL,

Pronounced:
ropey
row pie (as in row a boat)
or ?

> because the name we adopted
> for the distro was RISC OS Pi (and to complement NutPi). Not that it really
> matters, of course!

n.b. An Italian I was taking to on Friday pronounced the Raspberry Pi a
"Raspberry Fi" the Fi as in HiFi.

Chris Evans

--
CJE Micro's / 4D 'RISC OS Specialists'
Telephone: 01903 523222 Fax: 01903 523679
ch...@cjemicros.co.uk http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/
78 Brighton Road, Worthing, West Sussex, BN11 2EN
The most beautiful thing anyone can wear, is a smile!

[Bryn Evans]

In a mad moment - Ste (news) mumbled :

> In article <52fee4dd47...@btinternet.com>,
> spampling <spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> Not really - ROPi would be RISC OS on Pi (or possibly it need to be ROoPi)

> FWIW, we've been calling it ROPi within ROOL, because the name we adopted
> for the distro was RISC OS Pi (and to complement NutPi). Not that it really
> matters, of course!

I can't wait to see what you release as SweetiePi.

--
|)    [
|)ryn [vans mail to - Bryn...@bryork.freeuk.com

[Bryn Evans]

In a mad moment - Jess mumbled :

Technically.

[Bryn Evans]

In a mad moment - spampling mumbled :

Exactly !

[Philip Draper]

In message <csamb8a78...@yo.rk>

Bryn Evans <d...@a.invalid> wrote:

> In a mad moment - spampling mumbled :

>> In article <52fee95...@audiomisc.co.uk>, Jim Lesurf
>> <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
>>> But then I'd perhaps forgotten the full implication of this being a
>>> computing group. ;->

>> Insistence on precision? :-)

> Exactly !

Perhaps all this discussion of the virtues of mailing lists versus
forums has obscured the fact that neither, in this case, has provided
much help to the original inquirer, who was worried that the RPi was
formidably difficult to set up.

Incidentally, the Upton & Halfacree 'Raspberry P User Guide' seems
excellent. No mention of RISCOS - presumably it was written before
that was available - but maybe that will get into the second edition.

Philip.


--
Philip Draper

Phi...@borehamh.demon.co.uk

[John Rickman Iyonix]

Jess wrote

>> Insistence on precision? :-)

> Isn't it down to habits created due to there being another RISC OS
> (RISC/os ?) which was totally unrelated, and incorrect capitalization
> could cause ambiguity?

It is a pity that we are stuck with such a clumsy construct as RISC
OS.
I am never sure what is the best term to use for search engines. At
one time Google claimed to ignore two letter words so I used, "RISC
OS". Now I think Google has some rules that make all variations of
riscos equivalent. If true this makes a nonsense of our fine
distinctions, and makes it difficult to search for RISC OS as opposed
to RISCOS.


--
John Rickman - http://mug.riscos.org/

[John Rickman Iyonix]

Chris Evans wrote

> n.b. An Italian I was taking to on Friday pronounced the Raspberry Pi a
> "Raspberry Fi" the Fi as in HiFi.

Or WiFi - pronounced WeeFee in Italy
which suggests PiPi as an alternative plural to Pis.
(like the Creole "I and I" for first person plural We)

[Tony Moore]

On 17 Dec 2012, John Rickman Iyonix <ric...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

[snip]

> ... difficult to search for RISC OS as opposed to RISCOS.

'risc os -riscos' leads to 1,160,000 hits.

Tony

[Dev]

In article <25dd96ff52.old_coaster@old_coaster.yahoo.co.uk>,

Use DuckDuckGo. Much better & differentiates between RISC OS and riscos.

--
Dev

Om Namah Shivaya | Om Shula-panine namaha

[Vince M Hudd]

Bryn Evans <d...@a.invalid> wrote:
> In a mad moment - Ste (news) mumbled :

> > In article <52fee4dd47...@btinternet.com>,
> > spampling <spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > > Not really - ROPi would be RISC OS on Pi (or possibly it need to be
> > > ROoPi)

> > FWIW, we've been calling it ROPi within ROOL, because the name we
> > adopted for the distro was RISC OS Pi (and to complement NutPi). Not
> > that it really matters, of course!

> I can't wait to see what you release as SweetiePi.

There's always the possibility of attaching a webcam and some writing
software to continuously monitor it looking for a cat - and when it sees
one, play a sound sample of "I tawt I taw a puddy tat..."

Call it... TweetiePi

--
Soft Rock Software: http://www.softrock.co.uk
Vince M Hudd: http://misc.vinceh.com/about-vinceh/
RISCOSitory: http://www.riscository.com

[John Rickman Iyonix]

Dev wrote

> In article <25dd96ff52.old_coaster@old_coaster.yahoo.co.uk>,
> Tony Moore <old_c...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 17 Dec 2012, John Rickman Iyonix <ric...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

>> [snip]

>>> ... difficult to search for RISC OS as opposed to RISCOS.

>> 'risc os -riscos' leads to 1,160,000 hits.

> Use DuckDuckGo. Much better & differentiates between RISC OS and riscos.

Good advice - I switched my home page search engine to DDG last month
having found it on Midori on the Linux Pi:-
http://http://rickman.orpheusweb.co.uk/lynx/index.htm

But I still keep Google close at hand for a second opinion and for
image searches.


--
John Rickman -
mug.riscos.org/