Inspired by the pending release of the Raspberry Pi, I've started
looking at RISC OS as the possible "base" of a simple "nettop" that
for use when I just want to do some minor tasks without needing to
fire up my PC. On the whole, I'm quite impressed: even on the
relatively slow emulated environment that I'm using to evaluate the
system, things move along quite nicely. The Iconbar and Pinboard are
quite intuitive to use and the consistent use of drag and drop for
file operations took a little while to get used to, but actually works
quite well now that I know what to expect. Finally, the pervasive used
of context-sensitive menus reminds me of NeXT (and not in a bad way).
However, I have noticed a few things that could be offputting to a new
user. First is the fact that RISC OS makes the assumption that
"everybody is British". Obviously, the vast majority of RISC OS users
are British, but the fact that the system doesn't even allow for a non-
UK timezone to be set is a bit of a disappointment. Second is the
software situation: simply put, there's not much software in the price
bracket that someone looking to build a low-cost Raspberry Pi system
would be able to afford. Even simple tools like file archivers and
mail readers cost as much or more than the Raspberry Pi itself and the
prices only go up from there. Finally, what's up with the case-
sensitivity in the BASIC? The ability to hack together small programs
in a simple language is great, but the fact that one has to ride the
shift key in order to do so is a bit annoying.
Anyway, I'm really enjoying RISC OS and I hope to be a part of the
community in the future and I really hope to get some pointers on how
to work around some of the issues I've mentioned.
> However, I have noticed a few things that could be offputting to a new
> user. First is the fact that RISC OS makes the assumption that
> "everybody is British". Obviously, the vast majority of RISC OS users
> are British, but the fact that the system doesn't even allow for a non-
> UK timezone to be set is a bit of a disappointment.
<Ctrl-F12>
*H. timezone
==> Help on keyword TimeZone
*Configure Timezone sets the time zone as an offset from UTC
Syntax: *Configure TimeZone [+/-]<Hours>[:<Minutes>]
*ST. timezone
TimeZone +13:0
...admittedly, this should all be prettyfied and brought out to a GUI
in !Boot. Maybe the ROL variants of RISC OS do this?
> Second is the
> software situation: simply put, there's not much software in the price
> bracket that someone looking to build a low-cost Raspberry Pi system
> would be able to afford. Even simple tools like file archivers
ZipEE is usable and free, SparkFS is, admittedly, a bit better.
> and mail readers
Long time since I used RISC OS for the internet. There used to be
a very workable free solution in the form of Messenger & Newsbase.
Presumably it still exists?
> Finally, what's up with the case-sensitivity in the BASIC?
> First is the fact that RISC OS makes the assumption that "everybody
> is British".
:-) At least it's better than Windows XP that installed itself as "English (British)" and *still* cannot correctly spell "Favourites" in the Explorer window.
> Obviously, the vast majority of RISC OS users are British,
True, but we have (had?) a good showing in parts of Europe and the Antipodes.
> but the fact that the system doesn't even allow for a non-UK timezone
> to be set is a bit of a disappointment.
!?!? *Configure Timezone ! :-)
I live in France, the only thing I have on UK time is my PVR and satellite box, and that's because they're tuned to British channels. I got sick of translating timezones and screwing up.
To set, use:
*Configure Timezone
followed by + or - then the number of hours offset.
If you are in a freaky timezone with irregular offset, add a colon followed by the number of minutes, like -6:30 for 6 hours 30 less.
Thus, for France:
*Configure Timezone +1
NOTE: Timezones are specified according to UTC. You can then use:
*Configure DST
or:
*Configure NoDST
as appropriate to set "daylight savings". You may well want to investigate the Territory options to see if your country has custom settings.
This reminds me - didn't somebody make a Territory editor? Do European territories use the euro? :-)
I reiterate my appeal - does anybody have the data/documents for, and the rights to, the RISC OS User Guide? I think it's about time an updated version was made and PDF'd. I'd offer to edit it myself, but I know very little about how RISC OS 5 differs from RISC OS 3.70.
> Second is the software situation: simply put, there's not much
> software in the price bracket that someone looking to build a
> low-cost Raspberry Pi system would be able to afford.
True - our software is either FREE or kinda pricey at times. Not always, but with the RaspberryPi coming in at $25, even something inexpensive could seem expensive.
Problem is, a lot of our software is one-man-bands who do it more for love than income (multiply the sales by the price then divide by the number of hours taken - you'll probably find minimum wage to be a magnitude larger). Given this, the price will be a little higher to try to make it somehow seem worthwhile their effort. Plus, I don't think RISC OS has neither the volume nor the infrastructure to flog "apps" for a euro or two. Think about it, a two euro app flogging five thousand, that's a potential €10,000 (but probably not in reality!). Now how do you price if you'd be lucky to hit far into three digits?
I will point out, as you want to talk about mind-mumbingly expensive, that Visual Basic 2010 Professional with MSDN essentials (whatever that means) is £715.07, with used&new from £500. [Amazon.co.uk, right now]
Adobe CS 5.5 Web Premium *upgrade* rolls in at £458...
> Even simple tools like file archivers and mail readers cost as much
> or more than the Raspberry Pi itself and the prices only go up from there.
SparkFS rocks, but - yes - SparkFS costs.
There is a free port of the GNU zip (InfoZip? something like that?), although with a command line interface it is not as easy to use. Somebody might have written a front end for it.
> Finally, what's up with the case-sensitivity in the BASIC?
Put simply - that's how things USED to be before VisualBasic appeared and decided Case Was Mostly Up To The Ide And Not The Programmer and offered Variant data types which - to an old time BASIC/C coder, strike me as the data type from hell.
> in a simple language is great, but the fact that one has to ride the
> shift key in order to do so is a bit annoying.
Caps Lock? :-)
Seriously, once you've been programming a while, you'll get used to it. Never stopped me in over a decade, and the shift key didn't wear out either.
In article <j9abql$15...@dont-email.me>,
Rob Davison <nospamtha...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 11/8/2011 11:57 AM, Michael J. Kerpan wrote:
> > However, I have noticed a few things that could be offputting to a
> > new user. First is the fact that RISC OS makes the assumption that
> > "everybody is British". Obviously, the vast majority of RISC OS users
> > are British, but the fact that the system doesn't even allow for a
> > non- UK timezone to be set is a bit of a disappointment.
> <Ctrl-F12>
> *H. timezone
> ==> Help on keyword TimeZone
> *Configure Timezone sets the time zone as an offset from UTC
> Syntax: *Configure TimeZone [+/-]<Hours>[:<Minutes>]
> *ST. timezone
> TimeZone +13:0
> ...admittedly, this should all be prettyfied and brought out to a GUI
> in !Boot. Maybe the ROL variants of RISC OS do this?
In message <j9abql$15...@dont-email.me>
Rob Davison <nospamtha...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 11/8/2011 11:57 AM, Michael J. Kerpan wrote:
[snip]
> > and mail readers
> Long time since I used RISC OS for the internet. There used to be
> a very workable free solution in the form of Messenger & Newsbase.
> Presumably it still exists?
Messenger is 26bit but there seems to be a 'Messenger Lite' done for
the 'Iyonix' - so RComp might be able to shine some light on its
availability for the Beagle etc.
The majority of the IPR assets of Acorn are now owned by Pace Micro
Technology plc. However all enquiries regarding the usage of the
contents of this site should in the first instance be addressed to
RISCOS Ltd.
User Guides for later versions were distributed, by RISCOS Ltd, with the
relevant system upgrades, and are not freely available.
[snip]
> There is a free port of the GNU zip (InfoZip? something like that?),
> although with a command line interface it is not as easy to use.
> Somebody might have written a front end for it.
On Nov 7, 10:57 pm, "Michael J. Kerpan" <madcrow.maxw...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Inspired by the pending release of the Raspberry Pi, I've started
> looking at RISC OS as the possible "base" of a simple "nettop" that
> for use when I just want to do some minor tasks without needing to
> fire up my PC. [snip]
> Anyway, I'm really enjoying RISC OS and I hope to be a part of the
> community in the future and I really hope to get some pointers on how
> to work around some of the issues I've mentioned.
> Michael J. Kerpan wrote:
>> ... a non- UK timezone to be set ...
Rob Davison wrote on Nov08:
> <Ctrl-F12>
> *H. timezone
> ==> Help on keyword TimeZone
> *Configure Timezone sets the time zone as an offset from UTC
> Syntax: *Configure TimeZone [+/-]<Hours>[:<Minutes>]
> *ST. timezone
> TimeZone +13:0
> ...admittedly, this should all be prettyfied and brought out to a GUI
> in !Boot. Maybe the ROL variants of RISC OS do this?
Yes. The Configure dialogue in RiscOS 4 has a pretty front end already. (Well, 4.39 anyway; can't remember if 4.02 had it.)
Just to clarify something for Michael, as a new user. In the command-line stuff above, Rob uses a couple of abbreviations. The spelled-out forms of these commands are:
In general, OS commands can be abbreviated down to what's non-ambiguous, such as:
*h.
*con.
*st.
*. is short for *cat -- a catalogue of the disc, the most frequently needed command back in the days of the BBC Micro.
And something which I always forget:
*status XYZ reads the current state of *configure XYZ
*show reads the current state of *set, *seteval or *setmacro
(*show ought to be stated explicitly in the Help and in the User Guide under the various *set headings.)
I remember something that foxed me as a new user of my first Archimedes: the screen suddenly freezes. Eventually I noticed the thin strip of commandline at the bottom of the screen: finger had slipped and I had pressed F12. How to return to normal screen?
Well, obvious with hindsight, just hit Return.
Nowadays I much prefer to use Ctrl-F12 to open a taskwindow for entering commandline stuff. Big advantage is that contents of the taskwindow can be saved as a textfile if I want it.
Michael will be glad to know that command-line stuff does not care about upper- or lowercase.
Jim Nagel <jimnewsm...@abbeypress.co.uk> wrote:
> > Michael J. Kerpan wrote:
> >> ... a non- UK timezone to be set ...
> Rob Davison wrote on Nov08:
> > <Ctrl-F12>
> > *H. timezone
> > ==> Help on keyword TimeZone
> > *Configure Timezone sets the time zone as an offset from UTC
> > Syntax: *Configure TimeZone [+/-]<Hours>[:<Minutes>]
> > *ST. timezone
> > TimeZone +13:0
> > ...admittedly, this should all be prettyfied and brought out to a GUI
> > in !Boot. Maybe the ROL variants of RISC OS do this?
> Yes. The Configure dialogue in RiscOS 4 has a pretty front end > already. (Well, 4.39 anyway; can't remember if 4.02 had it.)
> Just to clarify something for Michael, as a new user. In the > command-line stuff above, Rob uses a couple of abbreviations. The > spelled-out forms of these commands are:
> In general, OS commands can be abbreviated down to what's > non-ambiguous, such as:
> *h.
> *con.
> *st.
> *. is short for *cat -- a catalogue of the disc, the most > frequently needed command back in the days of the BBC Micro.
> And something which I always forget:
> *status XYZ reads the current state of *configure XYZ
> *show reads the current state of *set, *seteval or *setmacro
> (*show ought to be stated explicitly in the Help and in the User Guide > under the various *set headings.)
> I remember something that foxed me as a new user of my first > Archimedes: the screen suddenly freezes. Eventually I noticed the > thin strip of commandline at the bottom of the screen: finger had > slipped and I had pressed F12. How to return to normal screen?
> Well, obvious with hindsight, just hit Return.
> Nowadays I much prefer to use Ctrl-F12 to open a taskwindow for > entering commandline stuff. Big advantage is that contents of the > taskwindow can be saved as a textfile if I want it.
> Michael will be glad to know that command-line stuff does not care > about upper- or lowercase.
In message <4eb8cbc1$0$30795$ba4ac...@reader.news.orange.fr>
Rick Murray <heyrickmail-use...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>There is a free port of the GNU zip (InfoZip? something like that?),
>although with a command line interface it is not as easy to use.
>Somebody might have written a front end for it.
In article
<84aa0ae1-0aec-47bb-b474-e9ebc767e...@n38g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
Michael J. Kerpan <madcrow.maxw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> However, I have noticed a few things that could be offputting to a new
> user. First is the fact that RISC OS makes the assumption that
> "everybody is British".
Would you believe I've never noticed this isn't present in the GUI
configuration tools?! I was about to say "Yes, RISC OS assumes you're going
to use !Alarm to change your system date/time, etc" so I fired it up and saw
that it resolutely talks about "BST vs GMT". He, he.
Well, as others have already said, this isn't actually a missing feature in
RISC OS - just in the default set of !Configure plug-ins.
> Second is the software situation: simply put, there's not much software in
> the price bracket that someone looking to build a low-cost Raspberry Pi
> system would be able to afford.
Agreed. Some developers (well, a few of the few remaining!) have unrealistic
expectations of what software is worth, I think perhaps they still believe
that there's a 'market'... a very few developers do have products that
justify the price tag though. I can't really see, given the numbers of sales
involved, how RISC OS software will ever be down in the app store range of
pennies per copy.
> Finally, what's up with the case-sensitivity in the BASIC? The ability to
> hack together small programs in a simple language is great, but the fact
> that one has to ride the shift key in order to do so is a bit annoying.
That's how the BASIC language works and has always worked. You could always
try Lua or Python or something.
> Anyway, I'm really enjoying RISC OS and I hope to be a part of the
> community in the future and I really hope to get some pointers on how
> to work around some of the issues I've mentioned.
Great. Always good to hear some feedback from someone who's genuinely new to
the scene.
Steve
-- Steve Revill @ Home
Note: All opinions expressed herein are my own.
Thanks for the hints everybody. I've successfully got my timezone set
properly and more importantly, know how to do so in the future. As for
software costs, I'll admit that there are some packages that seem to
be worth their price (ArtWorks and EasiWriter/TechWriter come to mind
as such judging by the reviews and screenshots I've seen) but there's
still likely to be a bit of "sticker shock" for many of the DIY types
who would be most likely to adopt RISC OS as the basis of a project.
Perhaps, though, said sticker shock might inspire some of those DIY
types who happen to have coding skills to write some new software,
though, which would be a good thing. Finally, the BASIC comment was
more a joke than anything serious.
In article <522f5b9727Spam...@argonet.co.uk>,
Stuart <Spam...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article
> <d3daa148-cb66-46a4-8b4e-bb126aa6f...@o14g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
> Michael J. Kerpan <madcrow.maxw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'll admit that there are some packages that seem to
> > be worth their price (ArtWorks and EasiWriter/TechWriter come to mind
> > as such judging by the reviews and screenshots I've seen)
> Indeed they are. One of my daughters used Techwriter exclusivly
> throughout her Maths degree and she achieved far better presentation and
> very favourable comments for her work, than those using PC software;
> though I realise that the newest versions of Word now have a proper
> equation editor.
I'd add in ProCAD+. For some reason I find it easier to use than any of
the PC alternatives - even with a slower computer like this RPC. Of course
it could just be the devil you know.
-- *Laugh alone and the world thinks you're an idiot.
Dave Plowman d...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
> I'm afraid I am unable to say how much of this will work on later machines
> such as the RasberryPi because a lot will have have been written for the
> 26bit capable processors. I note, however, that DrawWorks MIllenium /is/
> specified to work under RISC OS 5
Indeed I've checked that out and I'm pleased to say that DrawWorks
(both Millenium and XE) works well on my RPCEmu (SA-110 mode) + RiscOS
5.17 testbed. I haven't had time to check out all of the other stuff
yet, though.
Michael J. Kerpan wrote::
> Finally, what's up with the case-
> sensitivity in the BASIC? The ability to hack together small programs
> in a simple language is great, but the fact that one has to ride the
> shift key in order to do so is a bit annoying.
When I bought my first Archimedes, this was one thing that really
annoyed me. Most RISC OS users probably come from an Acorn 8bit
background, so they were already used to this user-unfriendly
behaviour.
I came from an Amstrad CPC background. While its Locomotive Basic lacked
the nice PROC/FN/LIBRARY structuring that BBC BASIC has, there was
one big advantage: you could type BASIC keywords in whatever case
you liked, as soon as the tokenizer identified a keyword, it
uppercased it automatically. This made it easy to spot typos,
and was generally very user-firendly.
At the end of the day, you get used to BBC BASIC case behaviour
quite soon. If you don't, I would recommend Lua.
> Anyway, I'm really enjoying RISC OS and I hope to be a part of the
> community in the future and I really hope to get some pointers on how
> to work around some of the issues I've mentioned.
<s...@huber-net.de> wrote:
> Michael J. Kerpan wrote::
> > Finally, what's up with the case- sensitivity in the
> > BASIC? The ability to hack together small programs in a
> > simple language is great, but the fact that one has to
> > ride the shift key in order to do so is a bit annoying.
> When I bought my first Archimedes, this was one thing
> that really annoyed me. Most RISC OS users probably come
> from an Acorn 8bit background, so they were already used
> to this user-unfriendly behaviour.
> I came from an Amstrad CPC background. While its
> Locomotive Basic lacked the nice PROC/FN/LIBRARY
> structuring that BBC BASIC has, there was one big
> advantage: you could type BASIC keywords in whatever case
> you liked, as soon as the tokenizer identified a keyword,
> it uppercased it automatically. This made it easy to spot
> typos, and was generally very user-firendly.
My first attempts at programming were in Applesoft(?) BASIC
on an Apple II, whose quirks are now long forgotten.
When my Scottish School sent me on a computer education
course, the powers that be had decided that all programming
in Scotland would be in BBC COMAL, so this is what we
learnt.
For the beginner it had many advantages over the then
available BASIC II on the BBC - proper structures such as
WHILE...THEN, REPEAT...UNTIL, IF...ELIF...ENDIF, CASE, as
well as procedures and functions, with parameters passed to
them.
It also automatically formatted primitives in upper case and
variables, procedure names etc in lower case, as well as
providing automatic on screen and printed formatting, with
indentation of structures and so on.
It also forced those whose early programming skill has made
use of endless GOTOs to think again...
The really galling bit though, is just inside the front
cover of the manual "The Acornsoft implementationof COMAL
was written by David Christensen, James Warwick and David
Evers, who at the time were all studying at Portsmouth
Grammar School."
I still use one or two programs in COMAL that I wrote at the
time or shortly afterward. Anyone else??
Michael J. Kerpan wrote:
> On Nov 9, 4:08 am, Stuart <Spam...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> Indeed I've checked that out and I'm pleased to say that DrawWorks
> (both Millenium and XE) works well on my RPCEmu (SA-110 mode) + RiscOS
> 5.17 testbed. I haven't had time to check out all of the other stuff
> yet, though.
This doesn't currently look so encouraging for the Raspberry Pi
though.
In message <9i0r35Fvo...@mid.individual.net>
Steffen Huber <s...@huber-net.de> wrote:
<snip>
> I came from an Amstrad CPC background. While its Locomotive Basic lacked
> the nice PROC/FN/LIBRARY structuring that BBC BASIC has, there was
> one big advantage: you could type BASIC keywords in whatever case
> you liked, as soon as the tokenizer identified a keyword, it
> uppercased it automatically. This made it easy to spot typos,
> and was generally very user-firendly.
That's interesting, Steffen. Zap seems to be able to recognise
the BASIC keywords and change the colour on the fly, so you'd
think it wouldn't be a major step to do case conversion.
In message <fa3df02f52.b...@ron1954.woosh.co.nz>
Ron <b...@woosh.co.nz> wrote:
> In message <9i0r35Fvo...@mid.individual.net>
> Steffen Huber <s...@huber-net.de> wrote:
> <snip>
> > I came from an Amstrad CPC background. While its Locomotive Basic lacked
> > the nice PROC/FN/LIBRARY structuring that BBC BASIC has, there was
> > one big advantage: you could type BASIC keywords in whatever case
> > you liked, as soon as the tokenizer identified a keyword, it
> > uppercased it automatically. This made it easy to spot typos,
> > and was generally very user-firendly.
> That's interesting, Steffen. Zap seems to be able to recognise
> the BASIC keywords and change the colour on the fly, so you'd
> think it wouldn't be a major step to do case conversion.
Better still, use StrongED. It does syntax colouring too and there's
already an add-on to convert BASIC keywords to uppercase.
In message <c732f12f52.fjgra...@casema.nl>
Fred Graute <fjgra...@planet.nl> wrote:
<snip>
> Better still, use StrongED. It does syntax colouring too and there's
> already an add-on to convert BASIC keywords to uppercase.
I'm looking forward to trying it. I had some terible problem with StrongEd not saving files properly, for example a saved BASIC file
didn't run, so I haven't been using it. I have subscribed to the
new mailing list, but haven't followed up on it yet.
Even reinstalling still gives problems so I put it down to
something on my machine causing it, and thought I should try to
isolate the cause first.
In message <97a8f22f52.b...@ron1954.woosh.co.nz>
Ron <b...@woosh.co.nz> wrote:
> In message <c732f12f52.fjgra...@casema.nl>
> Fred Graute <fjgra...@planet.nl> wrote:
> <snip>
> > Better still, use StrongED. It does syntax colouring too and there's
> > already an add-on to convert BASIC keywords to uppercase.
> I'm looking forward to trying it. I had some terible problem with
> StrongEd not saving files properly, for example a saved BASIC file
> didn't run, so I haven't been using it. I have subscribed to the
> new mailing list, but haven't followed up on it yet.
Was the BASIC file crunched by any chance? StrongED doesn't play nice
with crunched BASIC files, something I ran into myself recently.
Uncrunched BASIC files should be fine though, as indeed other types of
file. If not, then I'd appreciate a bug report.
It's not so bad as that. BCM2835 uses an ARM11 core, so it's ARMv6
architecture. AIUI Jeffrey's page:
http://www.riscosopen.org/wiki/documentation/show/ARMv7%20compatibili... indicates that for alignment purposes ARMv6 can be configured to behave the
same as ARMv5 (in Iyonix). So the range of software is potentially the same
as will run on an Iyonix (unless we find any other surprises).
> Michael J. Kerpan wrote:
> > On Nov 9, 4:08 am, Stuart <Spam...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > Indeed I've checked that out and I'm pleased to say that DrawWorks
> > (both Millenium and XE) works well on my RPCEmu (SA-110 mode) + RiscOS
> > 5.17 testbed. I haven't had time to check out all of the other stuff
> > yet, though.
> This doesn't currently look so encouraging for the Raspberry Pi
> though.
As the person who posted the comment about DWorks XE doesn't give a version
number or date the comment isn't much use, especially as I've been told by a
couple of other people that the latest version does work.
> Better still, use StrongED. It does syntax colouring too and there's
> already an add-on to convert BASIC keywords to uppercase.
Ahh, the OP made a point about the cost of software. He will
definitely find StrongEd worth far more than its purchase price! ;=!
(Lest joke not be recognized by aforementioned newbie, StrongEd is
worth its weight in gold yet costs nothing, and Fred is its
maintainer: www.stronged.iconbar.com )
> On 10-Nov-2011, trevj <tr...@cwazy.co.uk> wrote:
>> Michael J. Kerpan wrote:
>>> On Nov 9, 4:08 am, Stuart <Spam...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Indeed I've checked that out and I'm pleased to say that DrawWorks
>>> (both Millenium and XE) works well on my RPCEmu (SA-110 mode) + RiscOS
>>> 5.17 testbed. I haven't had time to check out all of the other stuff
>>> yet, though.
>> This doesn't currently look so encouraging for the Raspberry Pi
>> though.
>> http://www.riscosopen.org/wiki/documentation/show/ARMv7%20software%20c >> ompatibility%20list#graphics
> As the person who posted the comment about DWorks XE doesn't give a version
> number or date the comment isn't much use, especially as I've been told by a
> couple of other people that the latest version does work.
DrawWorks XE 2.63 on the ARMini with Alignment Exceptions on gets off to a slightly tragic start with :-
10 Nov 16:51:30 000 00000000: Error from (unknown): Internal error: branch through zero at line 190
That error is from Resources.!iKick, kick it out, so to speak, by commenting out the line in !Run and then DWorks appears to work. I have not given it much of a work out TBH.
A further trifle is that !XEManual does not register an icon on the iconbar. Line 138 of !XEManual.!RunImage is looking for a sprite called '!xlmanual', it is '!xemanual' in !Sprites.
I have updated the compatibility list. (How relevant is that to the Rasberry PI, which I believe is ARMv6?)
