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Some observations from a RISC OS newbie
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Michael J. Kerpan
Nov 7, 2011, 5:57:59 PM11/7/11
to
Inspired by the pending release of the Raspberry Pi, I've started
looking at RISC OS as the possible "base" of a simple "nettop" that
for use when I just want to do some minor tasks without needing to
fire up my PC. On the whole, I'm quite impressed: even on the
relatively slow emulated environment that I'm using to evaluate the
system, things move along quite nicely. The Iconbar and Pinboard are
quite intuitive to use and the consistent use of drag and drop for
file operations took a little while to get used to, but actually works
quite well now that I know what to expect. Finally, the pervasive used
of context-sensitive menus reminds me of NeXT (and not in a bad way).
However, I have noticed a few things that could be offputting to a new
user. First is the fact that RISC OS makes the assumption that
"everybody is British". Obviously, the vast majority of RISC OS users
are British, but the fact that the system doesn't even allow for a non-
UK timezone to be set is a bit of a disappointment. Second is the
software situation: simply put, there's not much software in the price
bracket that someone looking to build a low-cost Raspberry Pi system
would be able to afford. Even simple tools like file archivers and
mail readers cost as much or more than the Raspberry Pi itself and the
prices only go up from there. Finally, what's up with the case-
sensitivity in the BASIC? The ability to hack together small programs
in a simple language is great, but the fact that one has to ride the
shift key in order to do so is a bit annoying.
Anyway, I'm really enjoying RISC OS and I hope to be a part of the
community in the future and I really hope to get some pointers on how
to work around some of the issues I've mentioned.
looking at RISC OS as the possible "base" of a simple "nettop" that
for use when I just want to do some minor tasks without needing to
fire up my PC. On the whole, I'm quite impressed: even on the
relatively slow emulated environment that I'm using to evaluate the
system, things move along quite nicely. The Iconbar and Pinboard are
quite intuitive to use and the consistent use of drag and drop for
file operations took a little while to get used to, but actually works
quite well now that I know what to expect. Finally, the pervasive used
of context-sensitive menus reminds me of NeXT (and not in a bad way).
However, I have noticed a few things that could be offputting to a new
user. First is the fact that RISC OS makes the assumption that
"everybody is British". Obviously, the vast majority of RISC OS users
are British, but the fact that the system doesn't even allow for a non-
UK timezone to be set is a bit of a disappointment. Second is the
software situation: simply put, there's not much software in the price
bracket that someone looking to build a low-cost Raspberry Pi system
would be able to afford. Even simple tools like file archivers and
mail readers cost as much or more than the Raspberry Pi itself and the
prices only go up from there. Finally, what's up with the case-
sensitivity in the BASIC? The ability to hack together small programs
in a simple language is great, but the fact that one has to ride the
shift key in order to do so is a bit annoying.
Anyway, I'm really enjoying RISC OS and I hope to be a part of the
community in the future and I really hope to get some pointers on how
to work around some of the issues I've mentioned.
Rob Davison
Nov 7, 2011, 11:34:08 PM11/7/11
to
On 11/8/2011 11:57 AM, Michael J. Kerpan wrote:
> However, I have noticed a few things that could be offputting to a new
> user. First is the fact that RISC OS makes the assumption that
> "everybody is British". Obviously, the vast majority of RISC OS users
> are British, but the fact that the system doesn't even allow for a non-
> UK timezone to be set is a bit of a disappointment.
<Ctrl-F12>
> However, I have noticed a few things that could be offputting to a new
> user. First is the fact that RISC OS makes the assumption that
> "everybody is British". Obviously, the vast majority of RISC OS users
> are British, but the fact that the system doesn't even allow for a non-
> UK timezone to be set is a bit of a disappointment.
*H. timezone
==> Help on keyword TimeZone
*Configure Timezone sets the time zone as an offset from UTC
Syntax: *Configure TimeZone [+/-]<Hours>[:<Minutes>]
*ST. timezone
TimeZone +13:0
...admittedly, this should all be prettyfied and brought out to a GUI
in !Boot. Maybe the ROL variants of RISC OS do this?
> Second is the
> software situation: simply put, there's not much software in the price
> bracket that someone looking to build a low-cost Raspberry Pi system
> would be able to afford. Even simple tools like file archivers
> and mail readers
Long time since I used RISC OS for the internet. There used to be
a very workable free solution in the form of Messenger & Newsbase.
Presumably it still exists?
> Finally, what's up with the case-sensitivity in the BASIC?
ATB,
Rob.
--
Maple Glen http://www.mapleglen.co.nz/
Photos http://www.pbase.com/mapleglen/
Rick Murray
Nov 8, 2011, 1:27:24 AM11/8/11
to
On 07/11/2011 23:57, Michael J. Kerpan wrote:
> First is the fact that RISC OS makes the assumption that "everybody
> is British".
:-) At least it's better than Windows XP that installed itself as
> First is the fact that RISC OS makes the assumption that "everybody
> is British".
"English (British)" and *still* cannot correctly spell "Favourites" in
the Explorer window.
> Obviously, the vast majority of RISC OS users are British,
Antipodes.
> but the fact that the system doesn't even allow for a non-UK timezone
> to be set is a bit of a disappointment.
!?!? *Configure Timezone ! :-)
I live in France, the only thing I have on UK time is my PVR and
satellite box, and that's because they're tuned to British channels. I
got sick of translating timezones and screwing up.
To set, use:
*Configure Timezone
followed by + or - then the number of hours offset.
If you are in a freaky timezone with irregular offset, add a colon
followed by the number of minutes, like -6:30 for 6 hours 30 less.
Thus, for France:
*Configure Timezone +1
NOTE: Timezones are specified according to UTC. You can then use:
*Configure DST
or:
*Configure NoDST
as appropriate to set "daylight savings". You may well want to
investigate the Territory options to see if your country has custom
settings.
This reminds me - didn't somebody make a Territory editor? Do European
territories use the euro? :-)
I reiterate my appeal - does anybody have the data/documents for, and
the rights to, the RISC OS User Guide? I think it's about time an
updated version was made and PDF'd. I'd offer to edit it myself, but I
know very little about how RISC OS 5 differs from RISC OS 3.70.
> Second is the software situation: simply put, there's not much
> software in the price bracket that someone looking to build a
> low-cost Raspberry Pi system would be able to afford.
but with the RaspberryPi coming in at $25, even something inexpensive
could seem expensive.
Problem is, a lot of our software is one-man-bands who do it more for
love than income (multiply the sales by the price then divide by the
number of hours taken - you'll probably find minimum wage to be a
magnitude larger). Given this, the price will be a little higher to try
to make it somehow seem worthwhile their effort. Plus, I don't think
RISC OS has neither the volume nor the infrastructure to flog "apps" for
a euro or two. Think about it, a two euro app flogging five thousand,
that's a potential €10,000 (but probably not in reality!). Now how do
you price if you'd be lucky to hit far into three digits?
I will point out, as you want to talk about mind-mumbingly expensive,
that Visual Basic 2010 Professional with MSDN essentials (whatever that
means) is £715.07, with used&new from £500. [Amazon.co.uk, right now]
Adobe CS 5.5 Web Premium *upgrade* rolls in at £458...
> Even simple tools like file archivers and mail readers cost as much
> or more than the Raspberry Pi itself and the prices only go up from there.
There is a free port of the GNU zip (InfoZip? something like that?),
although with a command line interface it is not as easy to use.
Somebody might have written a front end for it.
> Finally, what's up with the case-sensitivity in the BASIC?
and decided Case Was Mostly Up To The Ide And Not The Programmer and
offered Variant data types which - to an old time BASIC/C coder, strike
me as the data type from hell.
> in a simple language is great, but the fact that one has to ride the
> shift key in order to do so is a bit annoying.
Seriously, once you've been programming a while, you'll get used to it.
Never stopped me in over a decade, and the shift key didn't wear out either.
> Anyway, I'm really enjoying RISC OS
Best wishes,
Rick.
Ian Hamilton
Nov 8, 2011, 1:41:23 AM11/8/11
to
In article <j9abql$15g$1...@dont-email.me>,
Try !Territory
http://www.a4com.de/riscos/down.htm
--
Ian Hamilton (Iyonix RO5) http://www.hamiltoni.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
Rob Davison <nospam...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 11/8/2011 11:57 AM, Michael J. Kerpan wrote:
> > However, I have noticed a few things that could be offputting to a
> > new user. First is the fact that RISC OS makes the assumption that
> > "everybody is British". Obviously, the vast majority of RISC OS users
> > are British, but the fact that the system doesn't even allow for a
> > non- UK timezone to be set is a bit of a disappointment.
> <Ctrl-F12>
> *H. timezone
> ==> Help on keyword TimeZone
> *Configure Timezone sets the time zone as an offset from UTC
> Syntax: *Configure TimeZone [+/-]<Hours>[:<Minutes>]
> *ST. timezone
> TimeZone +13:0
> ...admittedly, this should all be prettyfied and brought out to a GUI
> in !Boot. Maybe the ROL variants of RISC OS do this?
[Snip]
> On 11/8/2011 11:57 AM, Michael J. Kerpan wrote:
> > However, I have noticed a few things that could be offputting to a
> > new user. First is the fact that RISC OS makes the assumption that
> > "everybody is British". Obviously, the vast majority of RISC OS users
> > are British, but the fact that the system doesn't even allow for a
> > non- UK timezone to be set is a bit of a disappointment.
> <Ctrl-F12>
> *H. timezone
> ==> Help on keyword TimeZone
> *Configure Timezone sets the time zone as an offset from UTC
> Syntax: *Configure TimeZone [+/-]<Hours>[:<Minutes>]
> *ST. timezone
> TimeZone +13:0
> ...admittedly, this should all be prettyfied and brought out to a GUI
> in !Boot. Maybe the ROL variants of RISC OS do this?
Try !Territory
http://www.a4com.de/riscos/down.htm
--
Ian Hamilton (Iyonix RO5) http://www.hamiltoni.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
cfe...@freeremoveuk.com.invalid
Nov 8, 2011, 5:21:07 AM11/8/11
to
In message <j9abql$15g$1...@dont-email.me>
the 'Iyonix' - so RComp might be able to shine some light on its
availability for the Beagle etc.
--
Colin Ferris Cornwall UK
Rob Davison <nospam...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 11/8/2011 11:57 AM, Michael J. Kerpan wrote:
>
[snip]
> On 11/8/2011 11:57 AM, Michael J. Kerpan wrote:
>
>
> > and mail readers
>
> Long time since I used RISC OS for the internet. There used to be
> a very workable free solution in the form of Messenger & Newsbase.
> Presumably it still exists?
>
Messenger is 26bit but there seems to be a 'Messenger Lite' done for
> > and mail readers
>
> Long time since I used RISC OS for the internet. There used to be
> a very workable free solution in the form of Messenger & Newsbase.
> Presumably it still exists?
>
the 'Iyonix' - so RComp might be able to shine some light on its
availability for the Beagle etc.
--
Colin Ferris Cornwall UK
Tony Moore
Nov 8, 2011, 6:12:52 AM11/8/11
to
On 8 Nov 2011, Rick Murray <heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
[snip]
> I reiterate my appeal - does anybody have the data/documents for, and
> the rights to, the RISC OS User Guide?
The RISC OS 3.7 User Guide, which could be a starting point, is at
http://acorn.riscos.com/riscos3/37/37DiscArchive/manuals.zip As for
copyright, http://acorn.riscos.com/acornftp.htm says that
The majority of the IPR assets of Acorn are now owned by Pace Micro
Technology plc. However all enquiries regarding the usage of the
contents of this site should in the first instance be addressed to
RISCOS Ltd.
User Guides for later versions were distributed, by RISCOS Ltd, with the
relevant system upgrades, and are not freely available.
[snip]
> There is a free port of the GNU zip (InfoZip? something like that?),
> although with a command line interface it is not as easy to use.
> Somebody might have written a front end for it.
Harriet Bazley has written an excellent front end. Download it from
http://www.starfighter.acornarcade.com/mysite/utilities.htm#infozip
Tony
[snip]
> I reiterate my appeal - does anybody have the data/documents for, and
> the rights to, the RISC OS User Guide?
http://acorn.riscos.com/riscos3/37/37DiscArchive/manuals.zip As for
copyright, http://acorn.riscos.com/acornftp.htm says that
The majority of the IPR assets of Acorn are now owned by Pace Micro
Technology plc. However all enquiries regarding the usage of the
contents of this site should in the first instance be addressed to
RISCOS Ltd.
User Guides for later versions were distributed, by RISCOS Ltd, with the
relevant system upgrades, and are not freely available.
[snip]
> There is a free port of the GNU zip (InfoZip? something like that?),
> although with a command line interface it is not as easy to use.
> Somebody might have written a front end for it.
http://www.starfighter.acornarcade.com/mysite/utilities.htm#infozip
Tony
trevj
Nov 8, 2011, 7:02:32 AM11/8/11
to
On Nov 7, 10:57 pm, "Michael J. Kerpan" <madcrow.maxw...@gmail.com>
wrote:
A nettop port is being worked on (Efika MX):
http://riscosopen.org/forum/forums/5/topics/399
http://www.riscosopen.org/forum/forums/5/topics/567
http://www.riscosopen.org/forum/forums/9/topics/692
> Anyway, I'm really enjoying RISC OS and I hope to be a part of the
> community in the future and I really hope to get some pointers on how
> to work around some of the issues I've mentioned.
Great! Maybe the ROOL FAQ should be improved.
http://riscosopen.org/wiki/documentation/show/Frequently%20asked%20questions
Feel free to include your "newbie" questions at:
https://riscosopen.org/wiki/documentation/show/New%20users%27%20FAQ
so the more experienced can address them. Viewing things from a fresh
point of view could be extremely useful in drafting new documentation.
Thanks.
wrote:
> Inspired by the pending release of the Raspberry Pi, I've started
> looking at RISC OS as the possible "base" of a simple "nettop" that
> for use when I just want to do some minor tasks without needing to
> fire up my PC. [snip]
> looking at RISC OS as the possible "base" of a simple "nettop" that
> for use when I just want to do some minor tasks without needing to
A nettop port is being worked on (Efika MX):
http://riscosopen.org/forum/forums/5/topics/399
http://www.riscosopen.org/forum/forums/5/topics/567
http://www.riscosopen.org/forum/forums/9/topics/692
> Anyway, I'm really enjoying RISC OS and I hope to be a part of the
> community in the future and I really hope to get some pointers on how
> to work around some of the issues I've mentioned.
http://riscosopen.org/wiki/documentation/show/Frequently%20asked%20questions
Feel free to include your "newbie" questions at:
https://riscosopen.org/wiki/documentation/show/New%20users%27%20FAQ
so the more experienced can address them. Viewing things from a fresh
point of view could be extremely useful in drafting new documentation.
Thanks.
Jim Nagel
Nov 8, 2011, 8:00:41 AM11/8/11
to
> Michael J. Kerpan wrote:
>> ... a non- UK timezone to be set ...
Rob Davison wrote on Nov08:
already. (Well, 4.39 anyway; can't remember if 4.02 had it.)
Just to clarify something for Michael, as a new user. In the
command-line stuff above, Rob uses a couple of abbreviations. The
spelled-out forms of these commands are:
*help timezone
*configure timezone
*status timezone
In general, OS commands can be abbreviated down to what's
non-ambiguous, such as:
*h.
*con.
*st.
*. is short for *cat -- a catalogue of the disc, the most
frequently needed command back in the days of the BBC Micro.
And something which I always forget:
*status XYZ reads the current state of *configure XYZ
*show reads the current state of *set, *seteval or *setmacro
(*show ought to be stated explicitly in the Help and in the User Guide
under the various *set headings.)
I remember something that foxed me as a new user of my first
Archimedes: the screen suddenly freezes. Eventually I noticed the
thin strip of commandline at the bottom of the screen: finger had
slipped and I had pressed F12. How to return to normal screen?
Well, obvious with hindsight, just hit Return.
Nowadays I much prefer to use Ctrl-F12 to open a taskwindow for
entering commandline stuff. Big advantage is that contents of the
taskwindow can be saved as a textfile if I want it.
Michael will be glad to know that command-line stuff does not care
about upper- or lowercase.
--
Jim Nagel www.archivemag.co.uk
>> "from" address is genuine but will change. website has current one.
>> ... a non- UK timezone to be set ...
Rob Davison wrote on Nov08:
> <Ctrl-F12>
> *H. timezone
> ==> Help on keyword TimeZone
> *Configure Timezone sets the time zone as an offset from UTC
> Syntax: *Configure TimeZone [+/-]<Hours>[:<Minutes>]
> *ST. timezone
> TimeZone +13:0
> ...admittedly, this should all be prettyfied and brought out to a GUI
> in !Boot. Maybe the ROL variants of RISC OS do this?
Yes. The Configure dialogue in RiscOS 4 has a pretty front end
> *H. timezone
> ==> Help on keyword TimeZone
> *Configure Timezone sets the time zone as an offset from UTC
> Syntax: *Configure TimeZone [+/-]<Hours>[:<Minutes>]
> *ST. timezone
> TimeZone +13:0
> ...admittedly, this should all be prettyfied and brought out to a GUI
> in !Boot. Maybe the ROL variants of RISC OS do this?
already. (Well, 4.39 anyway; can't remember if 4.02 had it.)
Just to clarify something for Michael, as a new user. In the
command-line stuff above, Rob uses a couple of abbreviations. The
spelled-out forms of these commands are:
*help timezone
*configure timezone
*status timezone
In general, OS commands can be abbreviated down to what's
non-ambiguous, such as:
*h.
*con.
*st.
*. is short for *cat -- a catalogue of the disc, the most
frequently needed command back in the days of the BBC Micro.
And something which I always forget:
*status XYZ reads the current state of *configure XYZ
*show reads the current state of *set, *seteval or *setmacro
(*show ought to be stated explicitly in the Help and in the User Guide
under the various *set headings.)
I remember something that foxed me as a new user of my first
Archimedes: the screen suddenly freezes. Eventually I noticed the
thin strip of commandline at the bottom of the screen: finger had
slipped and I had pressed F12. How to return to normal screen?
Well, obvious with hindsight, just hit Return.
Nowadays I much prefer to use Ctrl-F12 to open a taskwindow for
entering commandline stuff. Big advantage is that contents of the
taskwindow can be saved as a textfile if I want it.
Michael will be glad to know that command-line stuff does not care
about upper- or lowercase.
--
Jim Nagel www.archivemag.co.uk
>> "from" address is genuine but will change. website has current one.
patric
Nov 8, 2011, 8:22:21 AM11/8/11
to
http://iconbar.co.uk/forums/viewthread.php?threadid=10981#comments
-- patric
Kevin Wells
Nov 8, 2011, 11:44:44 AM11/8/11
to
In message <4eb8cbc1$0$30795$ba4a...@reader.news.orange.fr>
<http://www.starfighter.acornarcade.com/mysite/utilities.htm#infozip>
--
Kev Wells http://riscos.kevsoft.co.uk/
http://kevsoft.co.uk/ http://kevsoft.co.uk/AleQuest/
ICQ 238580561
I am not an Alcoholic I am a Drunk. Alcoholics go to meetings.
Rick Murray <heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>There is a free port of the GNU zip (InfoZip? something like that?),
>although with a command line interface it is not as easy to use.
>Somebody might have written a front end for it.
>
There is and very good it is:
>There is a free port of the GNU zip (InfoZip? something like that?),
>although with a command line interface it is not as easy to use.
>Somebody might have written a front end for it.
>
<http://www.starfighter.acornarcade.com/mysite/utilities.htm#infozip>
--
Kev Wells http://riscos.kevsoft.co.uk/
http://kevsoft.co.uk/ http://kevsoft.co.uk/AleQuest/
ICQ 238580561
I am not an Alcoholic I am a Drunk. Alcoholics go to meetings.
Ste (news)
Nov 8, 2011, 7:30:07 PM11/8/11
to
In article
<84aa0ae1-0aec-47bb...@n38g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
configuration tools?! I was about to say "Yes, RISC OS assumes you're going
to use !Alarm to change your system date/time, etc" so I fired it up and saw
that it resolutely talks about "BST vs GMT". He, he.
Well, as others have already said, this isn't actually a missing feature in
RISC OS - just in the default set of !Configure plug-ins.
> Second is the software situation: simply put, there's not much software in
> the price bracket that someone looking to build a low-cost Raspberry Pi
> system would be able to afford.
Agreed. Some developers (well, a few of the few remaining!) have unrealistic
expectations of what software is worth, I think perhaps they still believe
that there's a 'market'... a very few developers do have products that
justify the price tag though. I can't really see, given the numbers of sales
involved, how RISC OS software will ever be down in the app store range of
pennies per copy.
> Finally, what's up with the case-sensitivity in the BASIC? The ability to
try Lua or Python or something.
> Anyway, I'm really enjoying RISC OS and I hope to be a part of the
> community in the future and I really hope to get some pointers on how
> to work around some of the issues I've mentioned.
Great. Always good to hear some feedback from someone who's genuinely new to
the scene.
Steve
--
Steve Revill @ Home
Note: All opinions expressed herein are my own.
<84aa0ae1-0aec-47bb...@n38g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
Michael J. Kerpan <madcrow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> However, I have noticed a few things that could be offputting to a new
> user. First is the fact that RISC OS makes the assumption that
> "everybody is British".
Would you believe I've never noticed this isn't present in the GUI
> However, I have noticed a few things that could be offputting to a new
> user. First is the fact that RISC OS makes the assumption that
> "everybody is British".
configuration tools?! I was about to say "Yes, RISC OS assumes you're going
to use !Alarm to change your system date/time, etc" so I fired it up and saw
that it resolutely talks about "BST vs GMT". He, he.
Well, as others have already said, this isn't actually a missing feature in
RISC OS - just in the default set of !Configure plug-ins.
> Second is the software situation: simply put, there's not much software in
> the price bracket that someone looking to build a low-cost Raspberry Pi
> system would be able to afford.
expectations of what software is worth, I think perhaps they still believe
that there's a 'market'... a very few developers do have products that
justify the price tag though. I can't really see, given the numbers of sales
involved, how RISC OS software will ever be down in the app store range of
pennies per copy.
> Finally, what's up with the case-sensitivity in the BASIC? The ability to
> hack together small programs in a simple language is great, but the fact
> that one has to ride the shift key in order to do so is a bit annoying.
That's how the BASIC language works and has always worked. You could always
> that one has to ride the shift key in order to do so is a bit annoying.
try Lua or Python or something.
> Anyway, I'm really enjoying RISC OS and I hope to be a part of the
> community in the future and I really hope to get some pointers on how
> to work around some of the issues I've mentioned.
the scene.
Steve
--
Steve Revill @ Home
Note: All opinions expressed herein are my own.
Michael J. Kerpan
Nov 9, 2011, 12:24:36 AM11/9/11
to
Thanks for the hints everybody. I've successfully got my timezone set
properly and more importantly, know how to do so in the future. As for
software costs, I'll admit that there are some packages that seem to
be worth their price (ArtWorks and EasiWriter/TechWriter come to mind
as such judging by the reviews and screenshots I've seen) but there's
still likely to be a bit of "sticker shock" for many of the DIY types
who would be most likely to adopt RISC OS as the basis of a project.
Perhaps, though, said sticker shock might inspire some of those DIY
types who happen to have coding skills to write some new software,
though, which would be a good thing. Finally, the BASIC comment was
more a joke than anything serious.
properly and more importantly, know how to do so in the future. As for
software costs, I'll admit that there are some packages that seem to
be worth their price (ArtWorks and EasiWriter/TechWriter come to mind
as such judging by the reviews and screenshots I've seen) but there's
still likely to be a bit of "sticker shock" for many of the DIY types
who would be most likely to adopt RISC OS as the basis of a project.
Perhaps, though, said sticker shock might inspire some of those DIY
types who happen to have coding skills to write some new software,
though, which would be a good thing. Finally, the BASIC comment was
more a joke than anything serious.
Message has been deleted
Dave Plowman (News)
Nov 9, 2011, 5:10:12 AM11/9/11
to
In article <522f5b97...@argonet.co.uk>,
Stuart <Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article
> <d3daa148-cb66-46a4...@o14g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
> throughout her Maths degree and she achieved far better presentation and
> very favourable comments for her work, than those using PC software;
> though I realise that the newest versions of Word now have a proper
> equation editor.
I'd add in ProCAD+. For some reason I find it easier to use than any of
the PC alternatives - even with a slower computer like this RPC. Of course
it could just be the devil you know.
--
*Laugh alone and the world thinks you're an idiot.
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Stuart <Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article
> <d3daa148-cb66-46a4...@o14g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
> Michael J. Kerpan <madcrow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'll admit that there are some packages that seem to
> > be worth their price (ArtWorks and EasiWriter/TechWriter come to mind
> > as such judging by the reviews and screenshots I've seen)
> Indeed they are. One of my daughters used Techwriter exclusivly
> > be worth their price (ArtWorks and EasiWriter/TechWriter come to mind
> > as such judging by the reviews and screenshots I've seen)
> throughout her Maths degree and she achieved far better presentation and
> very favourable comments for her work, than those using PC software;
> though I realise that the newest versions of Word now have a proper
> equation editor.
I'd add in ProCAD+. For some reason I find it easier to use than any of
the PC alternatives - even with a slower computer like this RPC. Of course
it could just be the devil you know.
--
*Laugh alone and the world thinks you're an idiot.
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Michael J. Kerpan
Nov 9, 2011, 10:10:52 AM11/9/11
to
On Nov 9, 4:08 am, Stuart <Spam...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> As you are a newcomer, I cannot help but ask if you have checked out:
>
> http://www.apdl.co.uk/pd.htm
>
> and
>
> http://www.apdl.co.uk/freeware.htm
>
> I'm afraid I am unable to say how much of this will work on later machines
> such as the RasberryPi because a lot will have have been written for the
> 26bit capable processors. I note, however, that DrawWorks MIllenium /is/
> specified to work under RISC OS 5
Indeed I've checked that out and I'm pleased to say that DrawWorks
(both Millenium and XE) works well on my RPCEmu (SA-110 mode) + RiscOS
5.17 testbed. I haven't had time to check out all of the other stuff
yet, though.
Mike
> As you are a newcomer, I cannot help but ask if you have checked out:
>
> http://www.apdl.co.uk/pd.htm
>
> and
>
> http://www.apdl.co.uk/freeware.htm
>
> I'm afraid I am unable to say how much of this will work on later machines
> such as the RasberryPi because a lot will have have been written for the
> 26bit capable processors. I note, however, that DrawWorks MIllenium /is/
> specified to work under RISC OS 5
Indeed I've checked that out and I'm pleased to say that DrawWorks
(both Millenium and XE) works well on my RPCEmu (SA-110 mode) + RiscOS
5.17 testbed. I haven't had time to check out all of the other stuff
yet, though.
Mike
Steffen Huber
Nov 9, 2011, 9:26:45 PM11/9/11
to
Michael J. Kerpan wrote::
annoyed me. Most RISC OS users probably come from an Acorn 8bit
background, so they were already used to this user-unfriendly
behaviour.
I came from an Amstrad CPC background. While its Locomotive Basic lacked
the nice PROC/FN/LIBRARY structuring that BBC BASIC has, there was
one big advantage: you could type BASIC keywords in whatever case
you liked, as soon as the tokenizer identified a keyword, it
uppercased it automatically. This made it easy to spot typos,
and was generally very user-firendly.
At the end of the day, you get used to BBC BASIC case behaviour
quite soon. If you don't, I would recommend Lua.
> Anyway, I'm really enjoying RISC OS and I hope to be a part of the
> community in the future and I really hope to get some pointers on how
> to work around some of the issues I've mentioned.
Welcome to the club!
Steffen
--
Steffen Huber - http://www.huber-net.de/
hubersn Software - http://www.hubersn-software.com/
> Finally, what's up with the case-
> sensitivity in the BASIC? The ability to hack together small programs
> in a simple language is great, but the fact that one has to ride the
> shift key in order to do so is a bit annoying.
When I bought my first Archimedes, this was one thing that really
> sensitivity in the BASIC? The ability to hack together small programs
> in a simple language is great, but the fact that one has to ride the
> shift key in order to do so is a bit annoying.
annoyed me. Most RISC OS users probably come from an Acorn 8bit
background, so they were already used to this user-unfriendly
behaviour.
I came from an Amstrad CPC background. While its Locomotive Basic lacked
the nice PROC/FN/LIBRARY structuring that BBC BASIC has, there was
one big advantage: you could type BASIC keywords in whatever case
you liked, as soon as the tokenizer identified a keyword, it
uppercased it automatically. This made it easy to spot typos,
and was generally very user-firendly.
At the end of the day, you get used to BBC BASIC case behaviour
quite soon. If you don't, I would recommend Lua.
> Anyway, I'm really enjoying RISC OS and I hope to be a part of the
> community in the future and I really hope to get some pointers on how
> to work around some of the issues I've mentioned.
Steffen
--
Steffen Huber - http://www.huber-net.de/
hubersn Software - http://www.hubersn-software.com/
Russell Hafter News
Nov 10, 2011, 4:20:19 AM11/10/11
to
In article <9i0r35...@mid.individual.net>, Steffen Huber
on an Apple II, whose quirks are now long forgotten.
When my Scottish School sent me on a computer education
course, the powers that be had decided that all programming
in Scotland would be in BBC COMAL, so this is what we
learnt.
For the beginner it had many advantages over the then
available BASIC II on the BBC - proper structures such as
WHILE...THEN, REPEAT...UNTIL, IF...ELIF...ENDIF, CASE, as
well as procedures and functions, with parameters passed to
them.
It also automatically formatted primitives in upper case and
variables, procedure names etc in lower case, as well as
providing automatic on screen and printed formatting, with
indentation of structures and so on.
It also forced those whose early programming skill has made
use of endless GOTOs to think again...
The really galling bit though, is just inside the front
cover of the manual "The Acornsoft implementationof COMAL
was written by David Christensen, James Warwick and David
Evers, who at the time were all studying at Portsmouth
Grammar School."
I still use one or two programs in COMAL that I wrote at the
time or shortly afterward. Anyone else??
--
Russell
http://www.russell-hafter-holidays.co.uk
Russell Hafter Holidays E-mail to enquiries at our domain
Need a hotel? <http://www.hrs.com/?client=en__blue&customerId=416873103>
<sp...@huber-net.de> wrote:
> Michael J. Kerpan wrote::
> > Finally, what's up with the case- sensitivity in the
> > BASIC? The ability to hack together small programs in a
> > simple language is great, but the fact that one has to
> > ride the shift key in order to do so is a bit annoying.
> When I bought my first Archimedes, this was one thing
> that really annoyed me. Most RISC OS users probably come
> from an Acorn 8bit background, so they were already used
> to this user-unfriendly behaviour.
> I came from an Amstrad CPC background. While its
> Locomotive Basic lacked the nice PROC/FN/LIBRARY
> structuring that BBC BASIC has, there was one big
> advantage: you could type BASIC keywords in whatever case
> you liked, as soon as the tokenizer identified a keyword,
> it uppercased it automatically. This made it easy to spot
> typos, and was generally very user-firendly.
My first attempts at programming were in Applesoft(?) BASIC
> Michael J. Kerpan wrote::
> > Finally, what's up with the case- sensitivity in the
> > BASIC? The ability to hack together small programs in a
> > simple language is great, but the fact that one has to
> > ride the shift key in order to do so is a bit annoying.
> When I bought my first Archimedes, this was one thing
> that really annoyed me. Most RISC OS users probably come
> from an Acorn 8bit background, so they were already used
> to this user-unfriendly behaviour.
> I came from an Amstrad CPC background. While its
> Locomotive Basic lacked the nice PROC/FN/LIBRARY
> structuring that BBC BASIC has, there was one big
> advantage: you could type BASIC keywords in whatever case
> you liked, as soon as the tokenizer identified a keyword,
> it uppercased it automatically. This made it easy to spot
> typos, and was generally very user-firendly.
on an Apple II, whose quirks are now long forgotten.
When my Scottish School sent me on a computer education
course, the powers that be had decided that all programming
in Scotland would be in BBC COMAL, so this is what we
learnt.
For the beginner it had many advantages over the then
available BASIC II on the BBC - proper structures such as
WHILE...THEN, REPEAT...UNTIL, IF...ELIF...ENDIF, CASE, as
well as procedures and functions, with parameters passed to
them.
It also automatically formatted primitives in upper case and
variables, procedure names etc in lower case, as well as
providing automatic on screen and printed formatting, with
indentation of structures and so on.
It also forced those whose early programming skill has made
use of endless GOTOs to think again...
The really galling bit though, is just inside the front
cover of the manual "The Acornsoft implementationof COMAL
was written by David Christensen, James Warwick and David
Evers, who at the time were all studying at Portsmouth
Grammar School."
I still use one or two programs in COMAL that I wrote at the
time or shortly afterward. Anyone else??
--
Russell
http://www.russell-hafter-holidays.co.uk
Russell Hafter Holidays E-mail to enquiries at our domain
Need a hotel? <http://www.hrs.com/?client=en__blue&customerId=416873103>
Message has been deleted
trevj
Nov 10, 2011, 7:05:49 AM11/10/11
to
though.
http://www.riscosopen.org/wiki/documentation/show/ARMv7%20software%20compatibility%20list#graphics
Ron
Nov 10, 2011, 7:11:59 AM11/10/11
to
In message <9i0r35...@mid.individual.net>
Steffen Huber <sp...@huber-net.de> wrote:
<snip>
the BASIC keywords and change the colour on the fly, so you'd
think it wouldn't be a major step to do case conversion.
Thanks, Ron M.
Steffen Huber <sp...@huber-net.de> wrote:
<snip>
> I came from an Amstrad CPC background. While its Locomotive Basic lacked
> the nice PROC/FN/LIBRARY structuring that BBC BASIC has, there was
> one big advantage: you could type BASIC keywords in whatever case
> you liked, as soon as the tokenizer identified a keyword, it
> uppercased it automatically. This made it easy to spot typos,
> and was generally very user-firendly.
>
That's interesting, Steffen. Zap seems to be able to recognise
> the nice PROC/FN/LIBRARY structuring that BBC BASIC has, there was
> one big advantage: you could type BASIC keywords in whatever case
> you liked, as soon as the tokenizer identified a keyword, it
> uppercased it automatically. This made it easy to spot typos,
> and was generally very user-firendly.
>
the BASIC keywords and change the colour on the fly, so you'd
think it wouldn't be a major step to do case conversion.
Thanks, Ron M.
Fred Graute
Nov 10, 2011, 7:22:25 AM11/10/11
to
In message <fa3df02...@ron1954.woosh.co.nz>
Better still, use StrongED. It does syntax colouring too and there's
already an add-on to convert BASIC keywords to uppercase.
--
Fred Graute
http://www.stronged.iconbar.com/
already an add-on to convert BASIC keywords to uppercase.
--
Fred Graute
http://www.stronged.iconbar.com/
Ron
Nov 10, 2011, 7:38:22 AM11/10/11
to
In message <c732f12f5...@casema.nl>
Fred Graute <fjgr...@planet.nl> wrote:
<snip>
StrongEd not saving files properly, for example a saved BASIC file
didn't run, so I haven't been using it. I have subscribed to the
new mailing list, but haven't followed up on it yet.
Even reinstalling still gives problems so I put it down to
something on my machine causing it, and thought I should try to
isolate the cause first.
Thanks, Ron M.
Fred Graute <fjgr...@planet.nl> wrote:
<snip>
>
> Better still, use StrongED. It does syntax colouring too and there's
> already an add-on to convert BASIC keywords to uppercase.
>
I'm looking forward to trying it. I had some terible problem with
> Better still, use StrongED. It does syntax colouring too and there's
> already an add-on to convert BASIC keywords to uppercase.
>
StrongEd not saving files properly, for example a saved BASIC file
didn't run, so I haven't been using it. I have subscribed to the
new mailing list, but haven't followed up on it yet.
Even reinstalling still gives problems so I put it down to
something on my machine causing it, and thought I should try to
isolate the cause first.
Thanks, Ron M.
Fred Graute
Nov 10, 2011, 8:33:21 AM11/10/11
to
In message <97a8f22...@ron1954.woosh.co.nz>
with crunched BASIC files, something I ran into myself recently.
Uncrunched BASIC files should be fine though, as indeed other types of
file. If not, then I'd appreciate a bug report.
Ron <be...@woosh.co.nz> wrote:
> In message <c732f12f5...@casema.nl>
> Fred Graute <fjgr...@planet.nl> wrote:
> <snip>
> >
> > Better still, use StrongED. It does syntax colouring too and there's
> > already an add-on to convert BASIC keywords to uppercase.
>
> I'm looking forward to trying it. I had some terible problem with
> StrongEd not saving files properly, for example a saved BASIC file
> didn't run, so I haven't been using it. I have subscribed to the
> new mailing list, but haven't followed up on it yet.
Was the BASIC file crunched by any chance? StrongED doesn't play nice
> In message <c732f12f5...@casema.nl>
> Fred Graute <fjgr...@planet.nl> wrote:
> <snip>
> >
> > Better still, use StrongED. It does syntax colouring too and there's
> > already an add-on to convert BASIC keywords to uppercase.
>
> I'm looking forward to trying it. I had some terible problem with
> StrongEd not saving files properly, for example a saved BASIC file
> didn't run, so I haven't been using it. I have subscribed to the
> new mailing list, but haven't followed up on it yet.
with crunched BASIC files, something I ran into myself recently.
Uncrunched BASIC files should be fine though, as indeed other types of
file. If not, then I'd appreciate a bug report.
Theo Markettos
Nov 10, 2011, 9:07:49 AM11/10/11
to
trevj <tr...@cwazy.co.uk> wrote:
> This doesn't currently look so encouraging for the Raspberry Pi
> though.
>
> http://www.riscosopen.org/wiki/documentation/show/ARMv7%20software%20compatibility%20list#graphics
It's not so bad as that. BCM2835 uses an ARM11 core, so it's ARMv6
> This doesn't currently look so encouraging for the Raspberry Pi
> though.
>
> http://www.riscosopen.org/wiki/documentation/show/ARMv7%20software%20compatibility%20list#graphics
architecture. AIUI Jeffrey's page:
http://www.riscosopen.org/wiki/documentation/show/ARMv7%20compatibility%20primer
indicates that for alignment purposes ARMv6 can be configured to behave the
same as ARMv5 (in Iyonix). So the range of software is potentially the same
as will run on an Iyonix (unless we find any other surprises).
I've just added RPi to that list.
Theo
David Holden
Nov 10, 2011, 10:54:28 AM11/10/11
to
number or date the comment isn't much use, especially as I've been told by a
couple of other people that the latest version does work.
--
David Holden - APDL - <http://www.apdl.co.uk>
Jim Nagel
Nov 10, 2011, 11:22:48 AM11/10/11
to
Fred Graute wrote on 10 Nov:
definitely find StrongEd worth far more than its purchase price! ;=!
(Lest joke not be recognized by aforementioned newbie, StrongEd is
worth its weight in gold yet costs nothing, and Fred is its
maintainer: www.stronged.iconbar.com )
> Better still, use StrongED. It does syntax colouring too and there's
> already an add-on to convert BASIC keywords to uppercase.
Ahh, the OP made a point about the cost of software. He will
> already an add-on to convert BASIC keywords to uppercase.
definitely find StrongEd worth far more than its purchase price! ;=!
(Lest joke not be recognized by aforementioned newbie, StrongEd is
worth its weight in gold yet costs nothing, and Fred is its
maintainer: www.stronged.iconbar.com )
David Pitt
Nov 10, 2011, 12:21:39 PM11/10/11
to
In message <9i2adm...@mid.individual.net>
DrawWorks XE 2.63 on the ARMini with Alignment Exceptions on gets off
to a slightly tragic start with :-
10 Nov 16:51:30 000 00000000: Error from (unknown): Internal error:
branch through zero at line 190
That error is from Resources.!iKick, kick it out, so to speak, by
commenting out the line in !Run and then DWorks appears to work. I
have not given it much of a work out TBH.
A further trifle is that !XEManual does not register an icon on the
iconbar. Line 138 of !XEManual.!RunImage is looking for a sprite
called '!xlmanual', it is '!xemanual' in !Sprites.
I have updated the compatibility list. (How relevant is that to the
Rasberry PI, which I believe is ARMv6?)
I hope that helps.
--
David Pitt
MessengerPro 6 on an ARMini running RISC OS 5
to a slightly tragic start with :-
10 Nov 16:51:30 000 00000000: Error from (unknown): Internal error:
branch through zero at line 190
That error is from Resources.!iKick, kick it out, so to speak, by
commenting out the line in !Run and then DWorks appears to work. I
have not given it much of a work out TBH.
A further trifle is that !XEManual does not register an icon on the
iconbar. Line 138 of !XEManual.!RunImage is looking for a sprite
called '!xlmanual', it is '!xemanual' in !Sprites.
I have updated the compatibility list. (How relevant is that to the
Rasberry PI, which I believe is ARMv6?)
I hope that helps.
--
David Pitt
MessengerPro 6 on an ARMini running RISC OS 5
Rick Murray
Nov 10, 2011, 12:57:40 PM11/10/11
to
On 10/11/2011 10:55, Stuart wrote:
> Yes, my first computer was a Beeb and I just accepted that "that was the
> way it was done" and never thought to question.
I liked it - because my friends were using Spectrums upon which you
*could* *not* type in keywords - you had to hunt for the right key for
the keyword you wanted to enter. It probably made for fairly rapid
programming once you learned the layout, but until then it would be
remarkably tedious.
IIRC, didn't the Electron offer a hybrid where you could type normally,
or use a modifier key to do it Speccy-like? I wonder if it wouldn't be
too difficult to put together a patch module that acts on, say, Ctrl+Alt
and a keypress to auto-insert BASIC keywords? Or maybe, these days, we
could hijack the Windows button? :-)
Best wishes,
Rick.
> Yes, my first computer was a Beeb and I just accepted that "that was the
> way it was done" and never thought to question.
I liked it - because my friends were using Spectrums upon which you
*could* *not* type in keywords - you had to hunt for the right key for
the keyword you wanted to enter. It probably made for fairly rapid
programming once you learned the layout, but until then it would be
remarkably tedious.
IIRC, didn't the Electron offer a hybrid where you could type normally,
or use a modifier key to do it Speccy-like? I wonder if it wouldn't be
too difficult to put together a patch module that acts on, say, Ctrl+Alt
and a keypress to auto-insert BASIC keywords? Or maybe, these days, we
could hijack the Windows button? :-)
Best wishes,
Rick.
John Williams (News)
Nov 10, 2011, 1:18:59 PM11/10/11
to
In article <4ebc1092$0$5706$ba4a...@reader.news.orange.fr>,
I'll do testing!
Best wishes,
John
--
John Williams, Brittany, Northern France - no attachments to these addresses!
Non-RISC OS posters change user to johnrwilliams or put 'risc' in subject!
Who is John Williams? http://petit.four.free.fr/picindex/author/
Rick Murray <heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Or maybe, these days, we could hijack the Windows button? :-)
I'm in favour!
> Or maybe, these days, we could hijack the Windows button? :-)
I'll do testing!
Best wishes,
John
--
John Williams, Brittany, Northern France - no attachments to these addresses!
Non-RISC OS posters change user to johnrwilliams or put 'risc' in subject!
Who is John Williams? http://petit.four.free.fr/picindex/author/
Steve Drain
Nov 10, 2011, 1:29:11 PM11/10/11
to
On 10/11/2011 09:20, Russell Hafter News wrote:
>> Michael J. Kerpan wrote:
>>> Finally, what's up with the case- sensitivity in the
>>> BASIC?
>> Michael J. Kerpan wrote:
>>> Finally, what's up with the case- sensitivity in the
>>> BASIC?
> When my Scottish School sent me on a computer education
> course, the powers that be had decided that all programming
> in Scotland would be in BBC COMAL, so this is what we
> learnt.
>
> For the beginner it had many advantages over the then
> available BASIC II on the BBC - proper structures such as
> WHILE...THEN, REPEAT...UNTIL, IF...ELIF...ENDIF, CASE, as
> well as procedures and functions, with parameters passed to
> them.
>
> It also automatically formatted primitives in upper case and
> variables, procedure names etc in lower case, as well as
> providing automatic on screen and printed formatting, with
> indentation of structures and so on.
>
> It also forced those whose early programming skill has made
> use of endless GOTOs to think again...
>
> The really galling bit though, is just inside the front
> cover of the manual "The Acornsoft implementationof COMAL
> was written by David Christensen, James Warwick and David
> Evers, who at the time were all studying at Portsmouth
> Grammar School."
>
> I still use one or two programs in COMAL that I wrote at the
> time or shortly afterward. Anyone else??
>
It also allowed calling of procedures and functions just by name,
> course, the powers that be had decided that all programming
> in Scotland would be in BBC COMAL, so this is what we
> learnt.
>
> For the beginner it had many advantages over the then
> available BASIC II on the BBC - proper structures such as
> WHILE...THEN, REPEAT...UNTIL, IF...ELIF...ENDIF, CASE, as
> well as procedures and functions, with parameters passed to
> them.
>
> It also automatically formatted primitives in upper case and
> variables, procedure names etc in lower case, as well as
> providing automatic on screen and printed formatting, with
> indentation of structures and so on.
>
> It also forced those whose early programming skill has made
> use of endless GOTOs to think again...
>
> The really galling bit though, is just inside the front
> cover of the manual "The Acornsoft implementationof COMAL
> was written by David Christensen, James Warwick and David
> Evers, who at the time were all studying at Portsmouth
> Grammar School."
>
> I still use one or two programs in COMAL that I wrote at the
> time or shortly afterward. Anyone else??
>
allowing a natural extension of the language. I wanted to introduce it
in my school, and I still have the ROM and manual somewhere, but it
would have been awkward in the BBC BASIC environment of the time. I also
think I remember that it did not have a built-in assembler.
As for GOTOs, I settled on Logo and its extensions for teaching.
Steve Drain
Nov 10, 2011, 1:28:42 PM11/10/11
to
On 10/11/2011 12:22, Fred Graute wrote:
> Better still, use StrongED. It does syntax colouring too and there's
> already an add-on to convert BASIC keywords to uppercase.
I cannot recommend it highly enough, but what is this add-on to convert
> Better still, use StrongED. It does syntax colouring too and there's
> already an add-on to convert BASIC keywords to uppercase.
to upper case? I have experimented with shortcuts, but there are
problems, not the least of which is the 7-character limit.
Russell Hafter News
Nov 10, 2011, 1:54:43 PM11/10/11
to
In article <xLUuq.50987$V_3....@newsfe06.ams2>, Steve
Those who mainly dealt with the least able thought this a
good idea, as they could start with a dummy program which
was just a selection of pre-defined procedures and the
pupils could use the pre-defined names, as you say, more or
less as natural language.
Others felt that it badly blurred the distinction between
variables, procedures and functions.
> I wanted to introduce it in my school, and I still have
> the ROM and manual somewhere, but it would have been
> awkward in the BBC BASIC environment of the time. I also
> think I remember that it did not have a built-in
> assembler.
True, not like BBC BASIC does. Do any other versions of
BASIC have this?
Drain <st...@kappa.me.uk> wrote:
> > I still use one or two programs in COMAL that I wrote
> > at the time or shortly afterward. Anyone else??
> It also allowed calling of procedures and functions just
> by name, allowing a natural extension of the language.
That was quite controversial amongst my contemporaries.
> > I still use one or two programs in COMAL that I wrote
> > at the time or shortly afterward. Anyone else??
> It also allowed calling of procedures and functions just
> by name, allowing a natural extension of the language.
Those who mainly dealt with the least able thought this a
good idea, as they could start with a dummy program which
was just a selection of pre-defined procedures and the
pupils could use the pre-defined names, as you say, more or
less as natural language.
Others felt that it badly blurred the distinction between
variables, procedures and functions.
> I wanted to introduce it in my school, and I still have
> the ROM and manual somewhere, but it would have been
> awkward in the BBC BASIC environment of the time. I also
> think I remember that it did not have a built-in
> assembler.
BASIC have this?
David Holden
Nov 10, 2011, 2:16:24 PM11/10/11
to
On 10-Nov-2011, David Pitt <pit...@pittdj.co.uk> wrote:
> A further trifle is that !XEManual does not register an icon on the
> iconbar. Line 138 of !XEManual.!RunImage is looking for a sprite
> called '!xlmanual', it is '!xemanual' in !Sprites.
missed as so very few people these days use low res screen modes and it's OK
in the !Sprites22 file.
Now fixed (and in the Update file as well).
The problem with the banner is amost certainly caused by the sound module
the banner uses not working on the Beagleboard for some reason. However, as
it's easily bypassed (a lot of people do that anyway) I'll leave that for
another time.
Fred Graute
Nov 10, 2011, 2:59:32 PM11/10/11
to
In message <3LUuq.50986$V_3....@newsfe06.ams2>
Press c-Space after entering a keyword and it's changed to uppercase.
Not very user-friendly, the version I have here is a lot better IMO.
It's tied to the return key, takes an entire line and corrects all the
keywords found.
As for the 7-character limit, you could always put in a feature request.
:-)
Not very user-friendly, the version I have here is a lot better IMO.
It's tied to the return key, takes an entire line and corrects all the
keywords found.
As for the 7-character limit, you could always put in a feature request.
:-)
trevj
Nov 10, 2011, 4:17:37 PM11/10/11
to
On Nov 10, 5:21 pm, David Pitt <pit...@pittdj.co.uk> wrote:
> [snip]
Thanks for adding that.
> I have updated the compatibility list. (How relevant is that to the
> Rasberry PI, which I believe is ARMv6?)
Perhaps it should be moved again
http://www.riscosopen.org/forum/forums/5/topics/425?page=2#posts-8793
to
"ARMv6 / v7 software compatibility list"!
On Nov 10, 3:54 pm, "David Holden" <Spam...@apdl.co.uk> wrote:
>
> As the person who posted the comment about DWorks XE doesn't give a version
> number or date the comment isn't much use, especially as I've been told by a
> couple of other people that the latest version does work.
Sorry, I should have looked at the help file or something. It was also
using an old ROM (the date of which *was* noted).
> [snip]
> That error is from Resources.!iKick, kick it out, so to speak, by
> commenting out the line in !Run and then DWorks appears to work. I
> have not given it much of a work out TBH.
> [snip]
> commenting out the line in !Run and then DWorks appears to work. I
> have not given it much of a work out TBH.
Thanks for adding that.
> I have updated the compatibility list. (How relevant is that to the
> Rasberry PI, which I believe is ARMv6?)
http://www.riscosopen.org/forum/forums/5/topics/425?page=2#posts-8793
to
"ARMv6 / v7 software compatibility list"!
On Nov 10, 3:54 pm, "David Holden" <Spam...@apdl.co.uk> wrote:
>
> As the person who posted the comment about DWorks XE doesn't give a version
> number or date the comment isn't much use, especially as I've been told by a
> couple of other people that the latest version does work.
using an old ROM (the date of which *was* noted).
Ron
Nov 10, 2011, 6:19:17 PM11/10/11
to
In message <04b1f72f5...@casema.nl>
> > I had some terrible problem with
first I noticed, but I think it alters all files upon saving.
Loading a file in and saving out again and the file size was smaller
by 1 to 6 bytes.
Thanks, Ron
Fred Graute <fjgr...@planet.nl> wrote:
> In message <97a8f22...@ron1954.woosh.co.nz>
> Ron <be...@woosh.co.nz> wrote:
<snip>
> In message <97a8f22...@ron1954.woosh.co.nz>
> Ron <be...@woosh.co.nz> wrote:
> > I had some terrible problem with
> > StrongEd not saving files properly, for example a saved BASIC file
> > didn't run, so I haven't been using it. I have subscribed to the
> > new mailing list, but haven't followed up on it yet.
>
> Was the BASIC file crunched by any chance? StrongED doesn't play nice
> with crunched BASIC files, something I ran into myself recently.
>
> Uncrunched BASIC files should be fine though, as indeed other types of
> file. If not, then I'd appreciate a bug report.
>
Will do, It doesn't effect the readable content, BASIC prog was the
> > didn't run, so I haven't been using it. I have subscribed to the
> > new mailing list, but haven't followed up on it yet.
>
> Was the BASIC file crunched by any chance? StrongED doesn't play nice
> with crunched BASIC files, something I ran into myself recently.
>
> Uncrunched BASIC files should be fine though, as indeed other types of
> file. If not, then I'd appreciate a bug report.
>
first I noticed, but I think it alters all files upon saving.
Loading a file in and saving out again and the file size was smaller
by 1 to 6 bytes.
Thanks, Ron
Fred Graute
Nov 10, 2011, 6:47:03 PM11/10/11
to
In message <0f562d3...@ron1954.woosh.co.nz>
StrongED's default behaviour is to strip trailing spaces when saving
files but this can be turned off on a per mode basis.
files but this can be turned off on a per mode basis.
Ron
Nov 10, 2011, 7:06:00 PM11/10/11
to
In message <82e02f305...@casema.nl>
Fred Graute <fjgr...@planet.nl> wrote:
> In message <0f562d3...@ron1954.woosh.co.nz>
> Ron <be...@woosh.co.nz> wrote:
<snip>
to output the same size.
I think it must be load addresss corruption, I recall permission
attributes changing vaguely also.
Ron M.
Fred Graute <fjgr...@planet.nl> wrote:
> In message <0f562d3...@ron1954.woosh.co.nz>
> Ron <be...@woosh.co.nz> wrote:
<snip>
> > > Uncrunched BASIC files should be fine though, as indeed other types of
> > > file. If not, then I'd appreciate a bug report.
> > >
> > Will do, It doesn't effect the readable content, BASIC prog was the
> > first I noticed, but I think it alters all files upon saving.
> > Loading a file in and saving out again and the file size was smaller
> > by 1 to 6 bytes.
>
> StrongED's default behaviour is to strip trailing spaces when saving
> files but this can be turned off on a per mode basis.
>
Ah, yes I think I may have stumbled on that at some point and got it
> > > file. If not, then I'd appreciate a bug report.
> > >
> > Will do, It doesn't effect the readable content, BASIC prog was the
> > first I noticed, but I think it alters all files upon saving.
> > Loading a file in and saving out again and the file size was smaller
> > by 1 to 6 bytes.
>
> StrongED's default behaviour is to strip trailing spaces when saving
> files but this can be turned off on a per mode basis.
>
to output the same size.
I think it must be load addresss corruption, I recall permission
attributes changing vaguely also.
Ron M.
Rick Murray
Nov 10, 2011, 11:59:02 PM11/10/11
to
On 10/11/2011 19:54, Russell Hafter News wrote:
> True, not like BBC BASIC does. Do any other versions of
> BASIC have this?
I'd say probably not - given my friends at school with 'lesser' machines
> True, not like BBC BASIC does. Do any other versions of
> BASIC have this?
relied heavily on PEEK and POKE and
photocopy-of-a-photocopy-of-a-photocopy-of-a-bad-dot-matrix-printout of
the hex codes of the processor instruction set (etc).
That I could "throw together" a Hello World in assembler by writing some
code to point to a string and call OS_WRCH on it, tossing the lot to
*BASIC* to be assembled, kinda irked them all. I didn't need to worry
about what way round to poke addresses (high byte first? low byte
first?) or the right opcode in the right addressing mode as a string of
ASCII values because *some* machines didn't like doing hex natively.
No, I think BBC BASIC was rather special.
I have a book here. Thin, A4ish, bright red. That's from memory, I can't
be bothered to rummage for something I've not seen in a decade. It
taught BASIC. Most of which was a rat's nest of GOSUB and GOTO in
hellish proportions, justified at the beginning of the book as, simply,
most home computer BASICs just cannot do better than that. I don't have
my Oric's user guide handy, but when reading through it, I don't recall
it having any concept of procedural code. Oh, and there was a listing of
opcodes for PEEK and POKE to do assembler. ;-)
Best wishes,
Rick.
David Holden
Nov 11, 2011, 2:16:15 AM11/11/11
to
On 11-Nov-2011, Rick Murray <heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> I don't have my Oric's user guide handy, but when reading through
> it, I don't recall it having any concept of procedural code.
Steve Drain
Nov 11, 2011, 5:42:43 AM11/11/11
to
On 10/11/2011 18:54, Russell Hafter News wrote:
It would have been good for control. I first used SBASIC (480Z) to do
this in one school, because it, too, had procedures called just by name.
This could not be done with BBC BASIC where I was next, but with Control
Logo procedures /are/ true extensions to the language; problem solved.
Despite the introduction of Archimedes, I preferred to do control with
the BBC B. The graphical programming that eventually went with the Lego
system removed the immediacy, I felt.
> True, not like BBC BASIC does. Do any other versions of
> BASIC have this?
I believe all versions of BBC BASIC have an assembler, whatever the
machine - Richard Russell can confirm this.
> Steve Drain<st...@kappa.me.uk> wrote:
>> It also allowed calling of procedures and functions just
>> by name, allowing a natural extension of the language.
>
> That was quite controversial amongst my contemporaries.
> Those who mainly dealt with the least able thought this a
> good idea, as they could start with a dummy program which
> was just a selection of pre-defined procedures and the
> pupils could use the pre-defined names, as you say, more or
> less as natural language.
Not just the least able.
>> It also allowed calling of procedures and functions just
>> by name, allowing a natural extension of the language.
>
> That was quite controversial amongst my contemporaries.
> Those who mainly dealt with the least able thought this a
> good idea, as they could start with a dummy program which
> was just a selection of pre-defined procedures and the
> pupils could use the pre-defined names, as you say, more or
> less as natural language.
It would have been good for control. I first used SBASIC (480Z) to do
this in one school, because it, too, had procedures called just by name.
This could not be done with BBC BASIC where I was next, but with Control
Logo procedures /are/ true extensions to the language; problem solved.
Despite the introduction of Archimedes, I preferred to do control with
the BBC B. The graphical programming that eventually went with the Lego
system removed the immediacy, I felt.
> True, not like BBC BASIC does. Do any other versions of
> BASIC have this?
machine - Richard Russell can confirm this.
cfe...@freeremoveuk.com.invalid
Nov 11, 2011, 6:06:56 AM11/11/11
to
In message <522f614...@davenoise.co.uk>
"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <522f5b97...@argonet.co.uk>,
> Stuart <Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article
> > <d3daa148-cb66-46a4...@o14g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
> > Michael J. Kerpan <madcrow...@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
>
> I'd add in ProCAD+. For some reason I find it easier to use than any
> of the PC alternatives
Version 1.06b here.
Has anyone tried it with the 'BeagleBoard'?
Thanks
--
Colin Ferris Cornwall UK
"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <522f5b97...@argonet.co.uk>,
> Stuart <Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article
> > <d3daa148-cb66-46a4...@o14g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
> > Michael J. Kerpan <madcrow...@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
>
> I'd add in ProCAD+. For some reason I find it easier to use than any
> of the PC alternatives
Version 1.06b here.
Has anyone tried it with the 'BeagleBoard'?
Thanks
--
Colin Ferris Cornwall UK
David Holden
Nov 11, 2011, 6:27:23 AM11/11/11
to
On 11-Nov-2011, Steve Drain <st...@kappa.me.uk> wrote:
> I believe all versions of BBC BASIC have an assembler, whatever the
> machine - Richard Russell can confirm this.
sold for the Atari had a 68K assembler (though I've never seen a copy).
JV
Nov 11, 2011, 8:06:49 AM11/11/11
to
Harriet Bazley
Nov 16, 2011, 8:52:12 AM11/16/11
to
On 9 Nov 2011 as I do recall,
Michael J. Kerpan wrote:
[snip]
> Finally, the BASIC comment was
> more a joke than anything serious.
I remember having the same reaction after coming to BBC BASIC from a
Sinclair (inserts BASIC keywords directly as tokens from function keys)
and Amstrad CPC (accepts all input in lowercase, lists recognised
keywords in uppercase)!
I assume the requirement to enter tokenisable keywords/pseudo-variables
(TOP, TIME etc.) in uppercase was in order to simplify the interpreter
rather than to prevent ambiguity or increase the number of potential
variable names (e.g. 'print' is potentially a perfectly valid
floating-point variable name distinct from PRINT the token, as are
'pRint', 'PRint' or even 'priNT')
--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==
A statement of fact cannot be insolent
Michael J. Kerpan wrote:
[snip]
> Finally, the BASIC comment was
> more a joke than anything serious.
I remember having the same reaction after coming to BBC BASIC from a
Sinclair (inserts BASIC keywords directly as tokens from function keys)
and Amstrad CPC (accepts all input in lowercase, lists recognised
keywords in uppercase)!
I assume the requirement to enter tokenisable keywords/pseudo-variables
(TOP, TIME etc.) in uppercase was in order to simplify the interpreter
rather than to prevent ambiguity or increase the number of potential
variable names (e.g. 'print' is potentially a perfectly valid
floating-point variable name distinct from PRINT the token, as are
'pRint', 'PRint' or even 'priNT')
--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==
A statement of fact cannot be insolent
Tim Hill
Nov 20, 2011, 11:17:59 AM11/20/11
to
In article <b16e10335...@blueyonder.co.uk>, Harriet Bazley
<baz...@feathermail.co.uk> wrote:
[Snip]
> I assume the requirement to enter tokenisable keywords/pseudo-variables
> (TOP, TIME etc.) in uppercase was in order to simplify the interpreter
> rather than to prevent ambiguity or increase the number of potential
> variable names (e.g. 'print' is potentially a perfectly valid
> floating-point variable name distinct from PRINT the token, as are
> 'pRint', 'PRint' or even 'priNT')
It is oft forgotten that keywords can be abbreviated.
10 I. "Name:"name$
20 P. "Hello ";name$
--
Tim Hill of timil.com . . .
* supports TFT & shares in cheaper ethical telecoms http://tjrh.eu/phone
* has a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/
* accepts incoming email: substitute postmaster@ for tim@
... "I like your silence; it the more shows off your wonder" Win Tale, Act v, Sc.2
<baz...@feathermail.co.uk> wrote:
[Snip]
> I assume the requirement to enter tokenisable keywords/pseudo-variables
> (TOP, TIME etc.) in uppercase was in order to simplify the interpreter
> rather than to prevent ambiguity or increase the number of potential
> variable names (e.g. 'print' is potentially a perfectly valid
> floating-point variable name distinct from PRINT the token, as are
> 'pRint', 'PRint' or even 'priNT')
10 I. "Name:"name$
20 P. "Hello ";name$
--
Tim Hill of timil.com . . .
* supports TFT & shares in cheaper ethical telecoms http://tjrh.eu/phone
* has a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/
* accepts incoming email: substitute postmaster@ for tim@
... "I like your silence; it the more shows off your wonder" Win Tale, Act v, Sc.2
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