Re: R-Comp Interactive announce the R-Comp Tablet

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts]

A Rawnsley <rc...@rcomp.co.uk> wrote:

> R-Comp Interactive are pleased to announce a new product debuting at the
> Wakefield show - the affordable R-Comp Tablet.

...

> Instead, it runs the latest version of the Google Android operating system
> (v4, known as "Ice Cream Sandwich"). However, the great thing is that it
> hooks up directly to USB-equipped RISC OS computers (eg. ARMini, Iyonix,
> RISCubes etc). Once hooked up, it is directly accessible, and files can
> be transferred to and fro by drag'n'drop - it couldn't be simpler.

...

> Our setup work ensures you'll be able to access a range of downloadable
> "apps", books and movies from the Google Store, or via Amazon's Kindle
> marketplace....

Are you saying you're installing some predefined set of apps on it? (I
assume you're not saying there's anything instrinsically RO-specific, in
what you're doing in setup - or is there?

You said above "hooks up directly to USB-equipped RISC OS computers" - is
this more than just a statement that one can connect the tablet to any USB
device?



> The tablet also plays a wide range of music formats, and can even stream
> content to your hi-fi wirelessly. It can be used with our MusicMan
> software to convert CDs for use on your computer or tablet.

It can? Are you saying Musicman isn't a RO app? I'm getting confused.


> Unlike Apple tablets, Flash is supported, which means you can access video
> content on YouTube and BBC iPlayer. Indeed, the tablet offers a rich web
> experience, making it an ideal accompaniment to your RISC OS computer,
> whilst avoiding the dreaded "Wintel" monopoly!

Mmm. How open is Google's approach to Android?



> And we think you'll like the price! Retailing at around half the price of
> well-known 10" tablets, the R-Comp Tablet costs just 259ukp inclusive of
> VAT.

I might be tempted, if i understood more about the hardware...

> This includes our time to set it up so that it is ready to go, out of the
> box, with the various add-ons available immediately.

Does that include some way to restore all this if the disk (does it have a
disk?) crashes?


> Please phone us on 01925 755043 for more information.

Can you post a link to a spec for the thing?


> Note, to get the best out of your R-Comp Tablet, we recommend that you
> have some form of wireless internet capability. The tablet is quite happy
> running "offline", but web-browsing, app-downloading and video-streaming
> naturally require such connectivity.

Is there no cabled internet option?



--
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Email sent to my from-address will be deleted. Instead, please reply
to newsre...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk replacing "aaa" by "284".

[Rick Murray]

On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 22:57:44 +0100, Jeremy Nicoll - news posts
<jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:

> Are you saying you're installing some predefined set of apps on it?

Didn't it say it was Android? It is normal to have the core apps,
then some vendor specific add-ons. Then you can add some of your own
choosing.

> Mmm. How open is Google's approach to Android?

I don't think it is is about how open Google is, but more how open
Android is. Or maybe how not-open other options are.

Normally Android is closed (for your safety), but (on most devices)
you can choose to install non-market apps.

> Is there no cabled internet option?

I think the small form factor doesn't lend itself to wired
networking. I mean, you don't get Ethernet on phones, and you
wouldn't fit the socket on a Kindle. Using WiFi is fast becoming
ubiquitous, and it's a lot simpler when you can walk around with your
gadget...


Best wishes,

Rick.

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts]

Rick Murray <heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 22:57:44 +0100, Jeremy Nicoll - news posts
><jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> Are you saying you're installing some predefined set of apps on it?
>
> Didn't it say it was Android? It is normal to have the core apps, then
> some vendor specific add-ons. Then you can add some of your own choosing.

Yes, but we're probably not going to be told the (original) vendor so can't
judge what those apps might be. Do we think R-Comp have written some
Android apps?

>> Mmm. How open is Google's approach to Android?
>
>I don't think it is is about how open Google is, but more how open
>Android is. Or maybe how not-open other options are.

Well how open IS Android? I mean, outwith the SDK, APIs etc that the apps
use?

> Normally Android is closed (for your safety), but (on most devices) you
> can choose to install non-market apps.

How is that different from MS being secretive about Windows internals but
everyone else writings Windows apps?

>> Is there no cabled internet option?
>
> I think the small form factor doesn't lend itself to wired networking. I
> mean, you don't get Ethernet on phones, and you wouldn't fit the socket on
> a Kindle. Using WiFi is fast becoming ubiquitous, and it's a lot simpler
> when you can walk around with your gadget...

If I buy one I'll mainly be lying in bed with it; I don't use WiFi for any
other machines here and have the WiFi functions in the router turned off,
for security. I suppose what I'm asking is if one can use an USB/ethernet
adapter.

[Alan Wrigley]

Jeremy Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:

> A Rawnsley <rc...@rcomp.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > R-Comp Interactive are pleased to announce a new product debuting at the
> > Wakefield show - the affordable R-Comp Tablet.
>

> [... snip lots of questions ...]

AFAIK R-Comp don't read the newsgroups so I doubt if you'll get an answer
here.

Alan

--
RISC OS - you know it makes cents

[Tim Hill]

In article <ap.a30ad15284.a...@argonet.co.uk>, A Rawnsley

<rc...@rcomp.co.uk> wrote:

> R-Comp Interactive are pleased to announce a new product debuting at
> the Wakefield show - the affordable R-Comp Tablet.

> Powered by a similar Cortex A8 architecture as the ARMini (supported
> by am attractive graphics chip), the innards of the tablet should be
> pleasingly familiar to RISC OS users. That ensures low power usage,
> meaning plentiful battery life, coupled with instant resume from
> standby etc.

> However, you'll notice that we're not calling this a RISCtablet or
> ARMtablet or similar, as it isn't a RISC OS tablet. Instead, it runs

> the latest version of the Google Android operating system (v4, known as
> "Ice Cream Sandwich").

[Snip description of an Android Tablet]

Now there's a funny thing. I recently stumbled upon this which seems
mighty similar!

http://www.ebuyer.com/344245-scroll-extreme-tablet-pc-54242

--
from Tim Hill of timil.com who . . .
* supports TFT & shares in cheaper ethical telecoms http://tjrh.eu/phone
* has a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/
* accepts incoming email: substitute postmaster@ for tim@

... "What is best, that best I wish in thee" Troilus & C, Act ii, Sc.2

[Tim Hill]

In article <almarsoft.8637...@news.orange.fr>, Rick Murray

<heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Apr 2012 22:57:44 +0100, Jeremy Nicoll - news posts
> <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:

> > Are you saying you're installing some predefined set of apps on it?

> Didn't it say it was Android? It is normal to have the core apps, then
> some vendor specific add-ons. Then you can add some of your own
> choosing.

I really do wish vendors wouldn't do this as those apps can't be deleted
and merely serve to gobble up memory and annoy you when Google's Play
Store <cringe /> tells you to update something you don't use.

> > Mmm. How open is Google's approach to Android?

> I don't think it is is about how open Google is, but more how open
> Android is. Or maybe how not-open other options are.

> Normally Android is closed (for your safety), but (on most devices)
> you can choose to install non-market apps.

Importantly, it's open enough for anyone to write apps others can use.

> > Is there no cabled internet option?

As you have a wireless router, use it with an encryption password and
stop worrying about a digital intrusion.

> I think the small form factor doesn't lend itself to wired networking.
> I mean, you don't get Ethernet on phones, and you wouldn't fit the
> socket on a Kindle. Using WiFi is fast becoming ubiquitous, and it's a
> lot simpler when you can walk around with your gadget...

Tablets are not generally designed to be used in one place on the end of
a wire, except when charging. Even file exchange can be achieved
wirelessly from Android to an NFS share.

Remember, as well as bed, there's living room, garden, and of course the
ever popular location for Tweet addict, the toilet.

--
from Tim Hill of timil.com who . . .
* supports TFT & shares in cheaper ethical telecoms http://tjrh.eu/phone
* has a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/
* accepts incoming email: substitute postmaster@ for tim@

... "God shall be my hope, my stay, my guide, and lantern to my feet" Henry VI, Act ii, Sc.3

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts]

Alan Wrigley <spam...@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> wrote:

> AFAIK R-Comp don't read the newsgroups so I doubt if you'll get an answer
> here.

It's their loss.

I don't quite understand why someone would post to csa.announce, with
followups to another group, and then not look to see if there were any
followups.

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts]

Tim Hill <t...@invalid.org.uk> wrote:

> As you have a wireless router, use it with an encryption password and
> stop worrying about a digital intrusion.

Actually, thinking about it, what I have is a Virgin Media "Superhub" which
is a cable modem, & wifi router in one box. But I couldn't get DHCP to work
from there through my network switch. So I've configured the Superhub to
work in modem-only mode. Thus the incoming cable goes to the superhub; it's
connected to my standalone non wifi-capable DrayTek router, that's conencted
to the switch, and the switch is connected to everywhere else. I doubt I can
turn on the wifi part of the superhub without getting the DHCP problem back.

I guess one could solve that with YAD(*) on the net acting as a wifi access
point, but why would I want to?

> Remember, as well as bed, there's living room, garden...

You have an inaccurate idea of the limits on my mobility. There's really
only the bed very many days, apart from visits to necessary small rooms:

> and of course the ever popular location for Tweet addict, the toilet.

Tweet? Me? No chance. I do Arc, Squawk, T'wit t'woo and Quack only.

* Yet Another Device

[Tim Hill]

In article <mpro.m2vozo...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk.invalid>, Jeremy

Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:

> Alan Wrigley <spam...@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> wrote:

> > AFAIK R-Comp don't read the newsgroups so I doubt if you'll get an
> > answer here.

> It's their loss.

> I don't quite understand why someone would post to csa.announce, with
> followups to another group, and then not look to see if there were any
> followups.

Effective Marketing and RISC OS are not often seen together in the same
room.

--
from Tim Hill of timil.com who . . .
* supports TFT & shares in cheaper ethical telecoms http://tjrh.eu/phone
* has a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/
* accepts incoming email: substitute postmaster@ for tim@

... "Who can control his fate?" Othello, Act v, Sc.2

[Alan Calder]

In article <mpro.m2vpcm...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk.invalid>, Jeremy

Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:

> Tim Hill <t...@invalid.org.uk> wrote:

> > As you have a wireless router, use it with an encryption password and
> > stop worrying about a digital intrusion.

> Actually, thinking about it, what I have is a Virgin Media "Superhub"
> which is a cable modem, & wifi router in one box. But I couldn't get
> DHCP to work from there through my network switch. So I've configured
> the Superhub to work in modem-only mode. Thus the incoming cable goes
> to the superhub; it's connected to my standalone non wifi-capable
> DrayTek router, that's conencted to the switch, and the switch is
> connected to everywhere else. I doubt I can turn on the wifi part of the
> superhub without getting the DHCP problem back.

> I guess one could solve that with YAD(*) on the net acting as a wifi
> access point, but why would I want to?

If you did consider putting a YAD into the system I do have a Wireless
Access Point looking for a new purpose in life. Dates from the time my
router had no wireless capability. Worked perfectly well. Going cheap to
a good home :-)


Alan

[Snip]

--
Alan Calder, Milton Keynes, UK.

[Tim Hill]

In article <mpro.m2vpcm...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk.invalid>, Jeremy

Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:

> Tim Hill <t...@invalid.org.uk> wrote:

> > As you have a wireless router, use it with an encryption password and
> > stop worrying about a digital intrusion.

> Actually, thinking about it, what I have is a Virgin Media "Superhub"
> which is a cable modem, & wifi router in one box. But I couldn't get
> DHCP to work from there through my network switch. So I've configured
> the Superhub to work in modem-only mode. Thus the incoming cable goes
> to the superhub; it's connected to my standalone non wifi-capable
> DrayTek router, that's conencted to the switch, and the switch is
> connected to everywhere else.

Am I being thick? What purpose is served by the Router? Why can't you
connect the switch to the SuperHub?

> I doubt I can turn on the wifi part of
> the superhub without getting the DHCP problem back.

I discovered similar problems and 'have to' have two DHCP servers on my
network. But, with different ranges: .100-.149 and .150-.199, they seem
to work okay.

> I guess one could solve that with YAD(*) on the net acting as a wifi
> access point, but why would I want to?

Indeed. Use the one you have and give different ranges to each DHCP
server.

> > Remember, as well as bed, there's living room, garden...

> You have an inaccurate idea of the limits on my mobility.

Sorry, wasn't aware. Hard to tell here. ;-)

> There's
> really only the bed very many days, apart from visits to necessary
> small rooms:

> > and of course the ever popular location for Tweet addict, the toilet.

> Tweet? Me? No chance. I do Arc, Squawk, T'wit t'woo and Quack only.

> * Yet Another Device

You should patent that. The new social network called "Quack" providing
xsocial media services to the Alternative Medicine industry.

--
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Share in a better energy supplier: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg
* Share in cheaper ethical telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone

* has a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/

... "'Tis good to be sad and say nothing" A Y L I, Act iv, Sc.1

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts]

Tim Hill <t...@invalid.org.uk> wrote:

> Am I being thick? What purpose is served by the Router? Why can't you
> connect the switch to the SuperHub?

The "router" (I was sloppy with my terminology) has the firewall in it, and
the DHCP server for my LAN. A network switch will do neither of those
things.

When I had the switch connected directly to the Superhub, and the Superhub
theoretically doing DHCP for the LAN, the DHCP traffic to & from the
Superhub didn't seem to be able to pass through the switch. I doubt it's
the switch's fault (modern, 24pt, Gigabit, and in any case it wrks fine with
the Draytek router also connected to it), more likely that the Superhub was
made down to a price and because it has its own 4pt switch in it and its own
router logic, maybe it couldn't cope with a bigger switch connected to it.

[snip]

> You should patent that. The new social network called "Quack" providing
> xsocial media services to the Alternative Medicine industry.

Hmm, there are quite a few quack-bashing sites with similar names.

[Tim Hill]

In article <mpro.m2vuku...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk.invalid>, Jeremy

Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:

> Tim Hill <t...@invalid.org.uk> wrote:

> > Am I being thick? What purpose is served by the Router? Why can't you
> > connect the switch to the SuperHub?

> The "router" (I was sloppy with my terminology) has the firewall in it,
> and the DHCP server for my LAN. A network switch will do neither of
> those things.

No, but presumably the SuperHub will do both of these.

> When I had the switch connected directly to the Superhub, and the
> Superhub theoretically doing DHCP for the LAN, the DHCP traffic to &
> from the Superhub didn't seem to be able to pass through the switch. I
> doubt it's the switch's fault (modern, 24pt, Gigabit, and in any case
> it wrks fine with the Draytek router also connected to it), more likely
> that the Superhub was made down to a price and because it has its own
> 4pt switch in it and its own router logic, maybe it couldn't cope with
> a bigger switch connected to it.

That shouldn't be the case.

[Snip]

--
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Share in a better energy supplier: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg
* Share in cheaper ethical telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone

* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/

... "Thy glass will show thee how thy beauties wear, thy dial how thy precious minutes waste" Sonnet 77

[Dave Higton]

In message <mpro.m2v04o...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk.invalid>

Jeremy Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk>
wrote:

> I don't use WiFi for any other machines here and have the WiFi functions
> in the router turned off, for security.

There was a time, years ago, when I worried like that about security.
Then I got real. WPA2 is as good as most people need. It won't do
for GCHQ or MI5, but if you use RISC OS, I assume you don't work for
either organisation.

What exactly are you afraid that someone will do?

Dave

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts]

Tim Hill <t...@invalid.org.uk> wrote:

>In article <mpro.m2vuku...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk.invalid>, Jeremy
>Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:
>> Tim Hill <t...@invalid.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> > Am I being thick? What purpose is served by the Router? Why can't you
>> > connect the switch to the SuperHub?
>
>> The "router" (I was sloppy with my terminology) has the firewall in it,
>> and the DHCP server for my LAN. A network switch will do neither of
>> those things.
>
> No, but presumably the SuperHub will do both of these.

Indeed, but as it couldn't communicate thru the switch it's a moot point.

>> When I had the switch connected directly to the Superhub...

> That shouldn't be the case.

Of course not, but it was. The Virgin Media "technical support" chap said
he had no idea about things like that, but did tell me that customers with
their own routers could use the superhub in cable-modem only mode. Which is
what I do. At least the option is there.

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts]

Dave Higton <daveh...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

>In message <mpro.m2v04o...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk.invalid>
> Jeremy Nicoll - news posts
<jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk>
>wrote:
>
>> I don't use WiFi for any other machines here and have the WiFi functions
>> in the router turned off, for security.
>
> There was a time, years ago, when I worried like that about security. Then
> I got real. WPA2 is as good as most people need. It won't do for GCHQ or
> MI5, but if you use RISC OS, I assume you don't work for either
> organisation.

;-) I no longer use RO; once in a blue moon I start VRPC to check an old
message in Pluto or something, but that's it.

> What exactly are you afraid that someone will do?

Nothing much. My main objection to WiFi is unreliability (though I do
realise the SuperHub should be more reliable than the older NetGear wifi
router I used to use in my mum's house). I found then that when the wifi
connection dropped the router could get what I assume was the underlying
connection going again, but XP couldn't re-share keys and get the secure c
connection going again. The thing worked fine in insecure mode... I find
on the other hand that a wired connection is completely reliable.

[Vince M Hudd]

Jeremy Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:

> A Rawnsley <rc...@rcomp.co.uk> wrote:

[...]

> You said above "hooks up directly to USB-equipped RISC OS computers" - is
> this more than just a statement that one can connect the tablet to any USB
> device?

I read that to mean "We can confirm that RISC OS computers will talk to the
tablet, recognising it as a mass storage device, so you can transfer your
stuff onto it easily using that method."

> > The tablet also plays a wide range of music formats, and can even stream
> > content to your hi-fi wirelessly. It can be used with our MusicMan
> > software to convert CDs for use on your computer or tablet.

> It can? Are you saying Musicman isn't a RO app? I'm getting confused.

What I think Andrew meant there (and what I've said on RISCOSitory.com) is
that it will happily play MP3s etc that were produced by MusicMan - as you'd
expect but, as with the USB connectivity above, he's effectively confirming
it.

[...]

> > And we think you'll like the price! Retailing at around half the price
> > of well-known 10" tablets, the R-Comp Tablet costs just 259ukp inclusive
> > of VAT.

*mutters something about having paid around £200 a few months ago for a
smaller tablet* :/

> I might be tempted, if i understood more about the hardware...

There's plenty of information out there about tablets in general - but
Andrew's announcement covered more than enough of the basics for most
people, I'd have thought.

They're flat and rectangular, generally with rounded corners despite Apple's
insistence that they own rounded corners, have a touchscreen that fills most
of one side, with a button or three on the bezell in some cases, and some a
smattering of connectors around the sides. They usually have something ARM
based at their heart.

[...]

> > This includes our time to set it up so that it is ready to go, out of
> > the box, with the various add-ons available immediately.

> Does that include some way to restore all this if the disk (does it have a
> disk?) crashes?

There's usually a way to perform a system reset on them, which will put
everything back to the factory settings - that'll be the state they were in
*before* R-Comp do any setting up. What's required beyond that to get it
back to R-Comp's set up obviously depends on what R-Comp install on the
device - but it'll probably all be available to download, so all they really
need to do is tell you what needs to be grabbed, if that really matters.

As far as documents and settings go: that should always be down to users.
There's usually an option to backup stuff to Google's servers, which will
include settings and passwords - but it's precisely *because* it includes
passwords (including Wi-Fi passwords) that I tend to turn the option off. It
doesn't really take long, if necessary, to bung a few passwords in and
change a few settings.

> Is there no cabled internet option?

They'd need to be thicker to accomodate an ethernet socket.

--
Soft Rock Software: http://www.softrock.co.uk
Vince M Hudd: http://misc.vinceh.com/about-vinceh/
RISCOSitory: http://www.riscository.com

[Vince M Hudd]

Jeremy Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:

> If I buy one I'll mainly be lying in bed with it;

TBH, unless it's unusually light compared with other Tablets - or unless
you're happy to lie on your side with it resting on the bed - you might find
it uncomfortably heavy for prolonged use like that.

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts]

Vince M Hudd <vin...@softrock.co.uk> wrote:

>Jeremy Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> If I buy one I'll mainly be lying in bed with it;
>
> TBH, unless it's unusually light compared with other Tablets - or unless
> you're happy to lie on your side with it resting on the bed - you might
> find it uncomfortably heavy for prolonged use like that.

The lieing on my side aspect is what I was thinking of, for times when
sitting up is too tiring or sore. I have a big, somewhat
industrial-looking, but VERY robust overbed table which provides 4 separate
putting-down areas (across a double bed). There are small flat bits outwith
each side of the bed (which tend ot be used for mugs of tea etc) and a large
tiltable bit in front of each 'pillow' position in the bed.

It's made from two of these:
http://www.feneticwellbeing.com/product-info.php?dalesideoverbedtable-pid72.html

joined in the middle with some extra steel tube I bought from a fabricator.
I tend to have one large table flat with junk on it and the other tilted at
about a 30 degree angle, with a laptop on it. Typing on the laptop is hard
on the arms, because the laptop's about a foot above my legs, in front of
me, but I also have a wireless keyboard that I can use on my lap that talks
to the laptop. I generally use the thing when I'm sitting up or slouched on
the pillow. I also sometimes watch iPlayer when I'm lieing completely flat
in the bed looking up at an angle to see the laptop's screen which, because
of the angle the slanted table is set at, I can see easily. I control the
laptop then with a cordless laser mouse (used at hip level under the duvet),
sometimes doing tiny amounts of 'keyboarding' with XP's on-screen keyboard
(ie with the mouse).

[Rick Murray]

On 22/04/2012 04:26, Jeremy Nicoll - news posts wrote:

> Yes, but we're probably not going to be told the (original) vendor so can't
> judge what those apps might be. Do we think R-Comp have written some
> Android apps?

Possibly not, but on the other hand, I've yet to see two email clients
the same. Things get fiddled with, either for the sake of doing so, or
in some attempt to "add value" over some rather basic stock software.

It seems the Android philosophy is "we'll do the minimum necessary,
everything else you'll need is on the app store" (now known by the
annoying name "Google Play").

>> I don't think it is is about how open Google is, but more how open
>> Android is. Or maybe how not-open other options are.
> Well how open IS Android? I mean, outwith the SDK, APIs etc that the apps
> use?

As far as I know, the GPU and device-specific ASIC tend to be closed
source (it's the supplier's call, some STILL don't bother with viable
datasheets) and the security module/SIM in a phone are also closed
source. I think the browser and Google Market^WPlay are also closed.

Much of the rest is open. Unless you're thinking of rolling your own
port, this isn't important to you. http://source.android.com/

As for the SDK/API, it might have helped if you did a bit of Googling
before writing the above. It would have pointed the way to developer
tools: http://developer.android.com/index.html

You can download a complete SDK to use within Eclipse (or not, with a
little more pain), you can develop and push files to your phone. It's a
flavour of Java known as "Dalvik". How close it is to Java is the
subject of endless pointless patent charades.

Sounds like too much pain? You can apparently pointy-clicky apps on a
web-based interface: http://www.appinventor.mit.edu/

If you'd rather design apps *on* the hardware itself (akin to OPL
programming on a Psion/PocketBook), you have the option to do that too.
I'm not much beyond "hello world" but it is surprisingly functional:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.aide.ui&hl=en

>> Normally Android is closed (for your safety), but (on most devices) you
>> can choose to install non-market apps.
> How is that different from MS being secretive about Windows internals but
> everyone else writings Windows apps?

Extremely. We aren't even talking about the same thing.

YOUR ANDROID ON YOUR DEVICE is normally locked to only download from
Google's Market (aka Google Play). You can, if you are willing to take
the risks associated with apps-from-who-knows-where tick a box in your
setup to allow the device to install from other places.

The same on a PC would be a default option only allowing the
installation of Microsoft products or Microsoft approved products... or
installing everything.

Google is fairly open with Android; however some stuff isn't open. This
is due to being a value-added-component, a security issue, an encryption
issue (ie DRM stuff), or simply because the entity that owns the IPR
says "eff off" (and given how f'd up American law is, most of them take
this sort of attitude).


This doesn't make Google perfect by any means. If you think the big
important question is how open the platform is for developing stuff, you
really shouldn't go anywere near any mobile technology invented in the
last five years.


Hint: Nobody gives a crap about source codes and such these days. It is
all about turning YOU into a commodity. You will probably find the
level of advertising and activity tracking to be scary. And
currently there is little that can be done about it. The EU has
rules, but few care about those and the little guy can't afford to
argue.
To help you get a clue about the new conflict, let me quote you
word for word what my Sony Ericsson Xperia Mini Pro says when I
turn on the GPS:
Will collect anonymous data
while using GPS. Data
transmission charges may
apply.
[ Agree ] [ Disagree ]

If you agree, you can use GPS. If you disagree, you can't. This is
likely to contravene several EU directives, and I've written a
lengthy blog post (not yet uploaded) blowing apart the charade of
calling me "anonymous".

> If I buy one I'll mainly be lying in bed with it;

Perfect for WiFi! :-)

> have the WiFi functions in the router turned off, for security.

Paranoid much?

Set WPA2/AES and a long password (at least 20 characters) and you'll be
fine. Nobody will hack you as it is far easier to get into WEP routers
(by far easier, it apparently runs in the order of 5-30 *minutes*), or
those numpties that don't bother to use any security at all.

So, set up:

Encryption type: WPA2/AES
WiFi pairing: Needs button.

Here, you have two levels of security. The first, obviously, is the
WPA2/AES on your communications. The second, the initial pairing process
should require some sort of physical action on the router itself, such
as pushing a button. This means a device with the correct key still
won't be able to gain access without a physical presence at the router.
It isn't perfect, but it is a help.


However, given the widespread use of cheap routers supplied by numpty
companies to clueless users, setting WPA2/AES will be sufficient for you
to be left alone. There are many easier targets if you want to get
online piggybacking somebody else's connection. Been there, done that.

> I suppose what I'm asking is if one can use an USB/ethernet adapter.

Possibly not. Most USB on these sorts of things works in device mode,
although *some* manufacturers have a special cable for using in host
mode. Even if you could plug in the adaptor, are suitable drivers
installed? Can they be installed?
It is important to understand that you, the user, has very limited
administrative access to an Android device. That is what "rooting" is
all about. The majority of devices can be rooted in one way or another,
but since Android is a fiddled-with Linux, you really don't want to mess
around inside unless you know the system well enough to be able to fix
problems; or to be able to download a replacement firmware and reflash
the device. I speak from (bitter!) experience that the SonyEricsson
updater requires a PC clocking around 2GHz with some 2Gb of RAM. It
worked on mom's eeePC (with harddisc and swap) but habitually failed on
my eeePC (no swap).
That an update program that basically pushes data and instructions down
a USB connection (the actual update is performed by the phone), that it
can't operate on a 1Gb machine clocking 1.6GHz...the dev team should be
taken outside and beaten guantanamo style. There's being wasteful with
resources, then there's taking the p!$$, then there's the SE updater...

In case you haven't guessed, RISC OS won't cut it for updates; not
unless all it involves is placing a file someplace. Which is pretty much
all it ought to involve, but manufacturers like to make it seem more
'difficult' to give you a reason to install their rubbish.


Best wishes,

Rick.

[Rick Murray]

On 22/04/2012 18:00, Jeremy Nicoll - news posts wrote:

> Dave Higton<daveh...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

> I found then that when the wifi connection dropped the router could
> get what I assume was the underlying connection going again, but XP

> couldn't re-share keys and get the secure connection going again.

Probably your computer. My eeePC does this from time to time when the
signal is too weak, and disabling/enabling the WiFi adaptor usually
fixes it [I'm lucky, as it is a netbook, disable actually powers down
the adaptor so it gets the kick in the ass it requires].

Oddly, running Linux (xubuntu, I think?) from the SD card, I don't
suffer problems like this, it might be something in the XP implementation?

When you did that, I bet you could "see" the router in the "scan for
routers" thingy, with a button marked "Connect" and nothing seemed to
want to work?

> I find on the other hand that a wired connection is completely reliable.

Pain in the backside for coding in bed. Less trouble when watching TV
(already have the power lead, the A/V leads, etc; so what's another
going to change?).


Best wishes,

Rick.

[Rick Murray]

On 22/04/2012 13:15, Tim Hill wrote:

> I really do wish vendors wouldn't do this as those apps can't be deleted

Damn right. The amount of Facebook rubbish on my phone is ridiculous. I
might tell you if I heard the most amazing song of my life [*], but I
don't see the necessity to share everything I'm listening to all the time.

* - I'm quite liking http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T37PRo2I_L4 but I
think following Sankarea's story has a lot to do with that.

> and merely serve to gobble up memory and annoy you when Google's Play
> Store<cringe /> tells you to update something you don't use.

Yes, Google Play - horrid name.

I've a stack of un-updated apps. It seems the Orange apps have taken to
wanting the permission to "Modify battery statistics". Call me paranoid,
but that is a very specific permission that a generic app should have no
purpose with.
Then there's the new (post-lookee-new-Ts&Cs) stuff from Google that
suddenly wants to look at your contacts list. No, Google Maps, you do
NOT need to read my contacts!

> Importantly, it's open enough for anyone to write apps others can use.

...and make them available without too much grief.

> ever popular location for Tweet addict, the toilet.

Sadly most of the thoughts end up on Twitter instead of in the porcelain
bowl where they belong...


Best wishes,

Rick.

[Rick Murray]

On 22/04/2012 13:31, Jeremy Nicoll - news posts wrote:

> I doubt I can turn on the wifi part of the superhub without getting
> the DHCP problem back.

Don't see why not. Stuff will just need to have a fixed IP address
assigned to it (remember, IP addresses by interface, not computer!).


Best wishes,

Rick.

[Dave Higton]

In message <mpro.m2w1sp...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk.invalid>

Jeremy Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk>
wrote:

> My main objection to WiFi is unreliability (though I do
> realise the SuperHub should be more reliable than the older NetGear wifi
> router I used to use in my mum's house). I found then that when the wifi
> connection dropped the router could get what I assume was the underlying
> connection going again, but XP couldn't re-share keys and get the secure c
> connection going again.

I have two wifi APs because I couldn't find one location that would
cover everywhere. I have an Ubuntu notebook, an HTC phone and I
have to bring in an XP laptop from work sometimes. There simply
hasn't been the problem you describe. The phone is a good example,
because of course it often gets walked between the two coverage
areas, and copes admirably.

Dave

[Grahame Parish]

In message <4f945511$0$21487$ba4a...@reader.news.orange.fr>

When I get my super(?)hub as part of the soon-to-arrive free speed
upgrade it will also be set to modem-only mode so that I can continue
to use the superior features (i.e. ones that work) of the Draytek.
Setting this mode precludes the use of WiFi and DHCP on the superhub.

The superhub is just a Virgin-specific Netgear cable router and lacks
good quality VPN, QoS (which I use for VoIP traffic) and many other
features that I need to use for work purposes. It's already been
through a number of firmware iterations to cure WiFi issues amongst
many others, including allowing modem-only mode.

They will no longer provide just a cable modem and the higher speeds
are incompatible with the existing modems. Apparently they won't
authorise any other modems even if you could get hold of one that was
suitable. It's a 'support issue' if everyone is not using the same
kit on the end of the line (as it won't fit with the scripts their
overseas call centre have for resolving problems).

--
Grahame Parish
maillistDOTparishATmillersHYPHENwayDOTnet
Aylesbury, Bucks. HP19 (UK)

[Rick Murray]

On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 21:45:28 +0100, Grahame Parish
<spam...@millers-way.net> wrote:

> They will no longer provide just a cable modem and the higher
> speeds are incompatible with the existing modems.

By cable modem, you mean a USB one? They more or less max out at
8Mbps.

A router is better, if for no other reason than it puts a barrier
between your hardware and The Wired.

> Apparently they won't authorise any other modems

Lame-ass support. They can't "authorise" anything, you set up a
router correctly, it'll plug right in and the ISP won't know any
different. When electric line noise took out the Livebox, I got back
on with a WAG200G running OpenWAG.

However...

> even if you could get hold of one that was suitable.

I'm back with the Livebox even though the WAG was superior in just
about every way because the WAG has no VoIP port. In fact, you'd be
hard pushed to find a VoIP capable box that worked with Orange's
oddball SIP that wasn't some sort of Livebox. As it is our only phone
line, I picked up a first generation Livebox at a boot sale for a
couple of euros to use as a spare.

> It's a 'support issue' if everyone is not using the same

I think it depends how competent a person is. If they know the
difference between PPPoA and PPPoE plus the "magic numbers" used by
the service, hooking up a non-telco router won't be hard. Just don't
expect their support number to give a damn (though... what's new?).

Think about it, whoever your provider is, they don't lay down their
own bit of wire for you. It's the same BT twisted pair into the same
DSLam in a big cabinet...


Best wishes,

Rick.

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts]

Rick Murray <heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 21:45:28 +0100, Grahame Parish
><spam...@millers-way.net> wrote:
>
>> They will no longer provide just a cable modem and the higher
>> speeds are incompatible with the existing modems.
>
>By cable modem, you mean a USB one? They more or less max out at
>8Mbps.

No. Cable as in 'internet delivered via a cable-tv network'. What comes
into the house is coax (with some copper cables attached to it for a phone
connection. The internet link uses the coax part of the cable. The 'cable
modem' is connected to the coax and is permanently online to part of the
Virgin Media network. It's not like ADSL where there's a sort of dial up and
login process involved. Standalone cable modems usually have an ethernet
port only.

I have the 30 Mbps service which just got updated to 60 Mbps... though I
don't see speeds anything like that except for the occasional burst. VM's
current fastest offering is 120 Mbps.

>> Apparently they won't authorise any other modems
>
>Lame-ass support. They can't "authorise" anything, you set up a
>router correctly, it'll plug right in and the ISP won't know any
>different.

That's not the case. Because there's no dial in & login associated with a
cable modem, it's actually on part of VM's network. The know what its
serial number and MAC etc are and they program it...

>> It's a 'support issue' if everyone is not using the same
>
> I think it depends how competent a person is.

It doesn't. You're thinking of phone-based technologies.

> Think about it, whoever your provider is, they don't lay down their own
> bit of wire for you. It's the same BT twisted pair into the same DSLam in
> a big cabinet...

It isn't. It's coax and fibre laid in the streets about thirty years ago.

[John Sandford]

Jeremy Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:

> Rick Murray <heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 22 Apr 2012 21:45:28 +0100, Grahame Parish
> > <spam...@millers-way.net> wrote:
> >
> > > They will no longer provide just a cable modem and the higher speeds
> > > are incompatible with the existing modems.
> >
> > By cable modem, you mean a USB one? They more or less max out at 8Mbps.
>
> No. Cable as in 'internet delivered via a cable-tv network'. What comes
> into the house is coax (with some copper cables attached to it for a phone
> connection. The internet link uses the coax part of the cable. The
> 'cable modem' is connected to the coax and is permanently online to part
> of the Virgin Media network. It's not like ADSL where there's a sort of
> dial up and login process involved. Standalone cable modems usually have
> an ethernet port only.
>
> I have the 30 Mbps service which just got updated to 60 Mbps... though I
> don't see speeds anything like that except for the occasional burst. VM's
> current fastest offering is 120 Mbps.

you need to talk to them, as I have the 120Mbps and mostly see 80-100, with
100+ outside peak hours

As you probably have the new "superhub" which is a combined router/cable
modem/ switch, its possible to use your own router, as the superhub has a
modem only mode,(added by virgin at user request) which will then use just
one of the 4 lan connections to attach a router, to get the best this will
need to be a gigabit router.

John


--
John Sandford
home

[Harriet Bazley]

On 22 Apr 2012 as I do recall,

Jeremy Nicoll - news posts wrote:

> Alan Wrigley <spam...@keepyourfilthyspamtoyourself.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > AFAIK R-Comp don't read the newsgroups so I doubt if you'll get an answer
> > here.
>
> It's their loss.
>
> I don't quite understand why someone would post to csa.announce, with
> followups to another group, and then not look to see if there were any
> followups.

As I understand it follow-ups to another group are compulsory
(c.s.a.announce being announcement-only) and are supplied by the
moderators if the initial submitter doesn't specify them; so probably
nothing to do with R-Comp in this case.

They're simply making a Usenet announcement as part of a general 'press
release', I imagine.

--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

Even a cabbage may look at a king.

[Alan Adams]

In message <528470...@invalid.org.uk>

Tim Hill <t...@invalid.org.uk> wrote:

> In article <mpro.m2vuku...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk.invalid>, Jeremy
> Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:
>> Tim Hill <t...@invalid.org.uk> wrote:

>>> Am I being thick? What purpose is served by the Router? Why can't you
>>> connect the switch to the SuperHub?

>> The "router" (I was sloppy with my terminology) has the firewall in it,
>> and the DHCP server for my LAN. A network switch will do neither of
>> those things.

> No, but presumably the SuperHub will do both of these.

>> When I had the switch connected directly to the Superhub, and the
>> Superhub theoretically doing DHCP for the LAN, the DHCP traffic to &
>> from the Superhub didn't seem to be able to pass through the switch. I
>> doubt it's the switch's fault (modern, 24pt, Gigabit, and in any case
>> it wrks fine with the Draytek router also connected to it), more likely
>> that the Superhub was made down to a price and because it has its own
>> 4pt switch in it and its own router logic, maybe it couldn't cope with
>> a bigger switch connected to it.

> That shouldn't be the case.

I have come across wireless access points with DHCP that will only
service wireless clients, not those connected to the wired port. A
good test would be to connect a wired device directly to the superhub,
and see whether it gets a DHCP address. If it doesn't, there's nothing
to stop you having two DHCP servers, as in this case they will service
separate segments of the network. For safety, set them up to
distribute addresses from different parts of your address range.

The bit that will not be particularly clean is any dynamic DNS done by
these devices. Each will know about its own clients, and not those of
the other device. I guess both DHCP setups will need to define the
same default gateway.



> [Snip]



--
Alan Adams, from Northamptonshire
al...@adamshome.org.uk
http://www.nckc.org.uk/

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts]

Alan Adams <al...@adamshome.org.uk> wrote:

> I have come across wireless access points with DHCP that will only service

> wireless clients...

Ah, that might explain it...

> The bit that will not be particularly clean is any dynamic DNS done by
> these devices.

I've found DNS pretty slow using Virgin's servers, so now I hard-code the
OpenDNS servers.

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts]

John Sandford <li...@thesandfords.me.uk> wrote:

>Jeremy Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:

> > I have the 30 Mbps service which just got updated to 60 Mbps... though I
> > don't see speeds anything like that except for the occasional burst.
> > VM's current fastest offering is 120 Mbps.
>
>you need to talk to them, as I have the 120Mbps and mostly see 80-100, with
>100+ outside peak hours

Interesting! What sorts of places are you downloading data from? For
example, shoudl I expect to see BBC iPlayer downloads at high speeds?

>As you probably have the new "superhub" ...

Yes, on cable-modem mode.

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <4f9453b7$0$12513$ba4a...@reader.news.orange.fr>, Rick Murray

<heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 22/04/2012 13:15, Tim Hill wrote:

> > I really do wish vendors wouldn't do this as those apps can't be
> > deleted

> Damn right. The amount of Facebook rubbish on my phone is ridiculous.

Pardon my ignorance of Android. But can you explain why apps provided by
the vendor can't be removed? I'd have assumed that if Android is based on
linux then the user can become root and do whatever they choose.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

[John Sandford]

Jeremy Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:

> John Sandford <li...@thesandfords.me.uk> wrote:
>
> > Jeremy Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk>
> > wrote:
>
> > > I have the 30 Mbps service which just got updated to 60 Mbps... though
> > > I don't see speeds anything like that except for the occasional burst.
> > > VM's current fastest offering is 120 Mbps.
> >
> > you need to talk to them, as I have the 120Mbps and mostly see 80-100,
> > with 100+ outside peak hours
>
> Interesting! What sorts of places are you downloading data from? For
> example, shoudl I expect to see BBC iPlayer downloads at high speeds

I dont normally use my broadband for iplayer, I use the normal tvbox as its
a option on catchup tv.

I just went to the iplayer page and ran some programs, These are in the high
quality mode, no indication what actual speed. these are streamed so
presumably controlled by the server as opposed to downloaded.

Lovefilm normally indicates at 24mbps again seems to be controlled by the
server as I can see downloads of actual files up to 12MB/s (MegaBytes).

> > As you probably have the new "superhub" ...
>
> Yes, on cable-modem mode.
>


--

John Sandford
home

[Stuart]

In article <mpro.m2xpep000...@thesandfords.me.uk>,

John Sandford <li...@thesandfords.me.uk> wrote:
> I just went to the iplayer page and ran some programs, These are in the
> high quality mode, no indication what actual speed. these are streamed
> so presumably controlled by the server as opposed to downloaded.

iplayer has its own speed test page.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/diagnostics

It will also tell you the minimum download speed required for different
streams.

I think a lot of these very high download speeds are largely hypothetical
anyway as it's going to depend on the bandwidth available to the server
you're trying to download from. Even with an 8M max router I have often
seen "waiting for...." because the other end can't cope.

It's almost like spending loads of money buying a car with a maximum speed
of 150mph when all you need in the UK is something that can do 70mph.

--
Stuart Winsor

Only plain text for emails
http://www.asciiribbon.org

[John Sandford]

Stuart <Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <mpro.m2xpep000...@thesandfords.me.uk>,
> John Sandford <li...@thesandfords.me.uk> wrote:
> > I just went to the iplayer page and ran some programs, These are in the
> > high quality mode, no indication what actual speed. these are streamed
> > so presumably controlled by the server as opposed to downloaded.
>
> iplayer has its own speed test page.
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/diagnostics
>
> It will also tell you the minimum download speed required for different
> streams.

Says im fine for TV-HD needs 3500 kbps i have 18506 kbps (thats just my
computer there a four others online here as well.)

> I think a lot of these very high download speeds are largely hypothetical
> anyway as it's going to depend on the bandwidth available to the server
> you're trying to download from. Even with an 8M max router I have often
> seen "waiting for...." because the other end can't cope.
>
> It's almost like spending loads of money buying a car with a maximum speed
> of 150mph when all you need in the UK is something that can do 70mph.
>

Or where there's room for more than one to do 70 mph at the same time,

I have online gamers here the 100mbps connection alows as all to get
reasonable use at the same time.

[Rick Murray]

I thought for online gaming, the latency was more important than the
actual speed? No point running Mb/sec if it takes 400uS to get
going...


Best wishes,

Rick.

[Rick Murray]

On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 12:24:30 +0100, Jim Lesurf
<no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:

> Pardon my ignorance of Android. But can you explain why apps
> provided by the vendor can't be removed? I'd have assumed that if
> Android is based on linux then the user can become root and do
> whatever they choose.

You are perfectly correct.

In normal mode vendor apps are both blocked from being removed *and*
(usually) can't be removed from the list of tasks. I have a game onj
my phone. Run it, it tells me the game is no longer available in
Polish (WTF?!). Can't uninstall, can't hide.

You can do all of these things, plus fiddle with the hosts file to
kill in-app advertising, plus tell applications "no, you can't read
my contacts" when you are root.

The problem is being root. You can't log in as such, you can't hook
up adb (USB debug protocol) and do it that way. You need to push a
hacked copy of su and a hacked busybox, then trick the phone into
running some exploit code that will use a vulnerability (how depends
upon the phone) to break into the OS to get itself root privs. With
this, you then give yourself the ability to become root. It is
apparently not a complicated thing to do, but since my phone is a
device I use daily plus a thing tied to a contract where unwanted
calls and texts will cost me, I'm none too keen on running that sort
of code on it. It would be nice if there was a hack that gave a back
door so you could log in as root as and when you needed, as opposed
to just opening up the phone. I can wait...


Best wishes,

Rick.

[John Sandford]

Possibly, not my scene, I used to have 50meg, They all say its much improved
on the 100meg, which they also contribute to.

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts]

John Sandford <li...@thesandfords.me.uk> wrote:

>Jeremy Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:

>> Interesting! What sorts of places are you downloading data from? For
>> example, shoudl I expect to see BBC iPlayer downloads at high speeds
>

> I just went to the iplayer page and ran some programs, These are in the
> high quality mode, no indication what actual speed. these are streamed so
> presumably controlled by the server as opposed to downloaded.

So what happens if you try to download some programmes? (I rarely stream.)

Previously with an 'up to' 10Mbps connection, data pretty often arrived at
about 3-4 Mbps (and just over 2 Mbps when traffic management cut in). Now I
seem to get 7-8 Mbps all the time. Traffic management doesn't seem to cut
in because (and actually this was really why I upgraded) the traffic
management thresholds are much bigger.

Even before with the 10Mbps service I regularly got double the speed when
using the cable at mum's house. I assumed that we were connected to
different UBRs, and the one at mum's was more lightly loaded.

I don't know if there's much chance o VM improving things, because they
stressed at the order time that 'up to' means no speed guarantee, and VM
forums have always seemed to be full of complaints about speeds.

[John Sandford]

Jeremy Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:

> John Sandford <li...@thesandfords.me.uk> wrote:
>
> > Jeremy Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk>
> > wrote:
>
> > > Interesting! What sorts of places are you downloading data from? For
> > > example, shoudl I expect to see BBC iPlayer downloads at high speeds
> >
>
> > I just went to the iplayer page and ran some programs, These are in the
> > high quality mode, no indication what actual speed. these are streamed
> > so presumably controlled by the server as opposed to downloaded.
>
> So what happens if you try to download some programmes? (I rarely
> stream.)

Downloading a 678MB file on virgin's network I get between 8-10 MB/sec.
using speed test indicators I get 104Mbps down 8Mbps up (speedtest.net)
The forums had a recommended test www.vmspeed.com which gave similar.

> Previously with an 'up to' 10Mbps connection, data pretty often arrived at
> about 3-4 Mbps (and just over 2 Mbps when traffic management cut in). Now
> I seem to get 7-8 Mbps all the time. Traffic management doesn't seem to
> cut in because (and actually this was really why I upgraded) the traffic
> management thresholds are much bigger.

dont see traffic management effects,probably for the same reason, even
larger limits.

> Even before with the 10Mbps service I regularly got double the speed when
> using the cable at mum's house. I assumed that we were connected to
> different UBRs, and the one at mum's was more lightly loaded.

I'm in a light contention area.

> I don't know if there's much chance o VM improving things, because they
> stressed at the order time that 'up to' means no speed guarantee, and VM
> forums have always seemed to be full of complaints about speeds.

Mostly complaining how slow their torrents are !!.

[druck]

On 22/04/2012 03:26, Jeremy Nicoll - news posts wrote:
> If I buy one I'll mainly be lying in bed with it; I don't use WiFi for any
> other machines here and have the WiFi functions in the router turned off,
> for security. I suppose what I'm asking is if one can use an USB/ethernet
> adapter.

No, and surprisingly a mobile phone doesn't come with an adaptor
allowing it to be plugged in to the Post Office Telephone socket either! :-)

---druck

[druck]

On 23/04/2012 12:18, Alan Adams wrote:
> I have come across wireless access points with DHCP that will only
> service wireless clients, not those connected to the wired port. A
> good test would be to connect a wired device directly to the superhub,
> and see whether it gets a DHCP address. If it doesn't, there's nothing
> to stop you having two DHCP servers, as in this case they will service
> separate segments of the network. For safety, set them up to
> distribute addresses from different parts of your address range.

It should be possible to take advantage of this setup to have the WiFi
on the external side of the firewall to allow access to the internet for
devices such as Kindles, smartphones and guest laptops. But keeping such
devices away from the wired network for reasons such as excessive paranoia.

---druck

[Tim Hill]

In article <mpro.m2w1sp...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk.invalid>, Jeremy
Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

> My main objection to WiFi is unreliability (though I do
> realise the SuperHub should be more reliable than the older NetGear
> wifi router I used to use in my mum's house). I found then that when
> the wifi connection dropped the router could get what I assume was the
> underlying connection going again, but XP couldn't re-share keys and

> get the secure c connection going again. The thing worked fine in
> insecure mode... I find on the other hand that a wired connection is
> completely reliable.

Hmmm. I wonder if that old router has by now had a firmware upgrade.

I have always found secured wifi mostly as reliable as 'open' which is
excellent, just so long as you don't go out of range which isn't anything
like as far in a building as the manufacturers would have you believe!

Several Androids, iPhones, Blackberries, Laptops, and an IPCameras have
been used here /at the same time/ and the wireless worked faultlessly.
Much to my amazement.

What you were using for the XP connexion? If it was a particular wifi
dongle I had here: it was utter crap and was thrown away. SWMBO's office
used to have a variety of wireless dongles on their office PCs and they
were all useless: couldn't have passed a signal though a paper wall.
Using proper wireless repeaters or homeplugs and wired connections to PCs
works much better.

--
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Share in a better energy supplier: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg
* Share in cheaper ethical telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/

... "If I lose mine honour, I lose myself" Ant & Cleo, Act iii, Sc.4

[Tim Hill]

In article <4f944ea4$0$12494$ba4a...@reader.news.orange.fr>, Rick Murray
<heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> or those numpties that don't bother to use any [wifi] security at all.

Okay, I'll bite.

Starbucks have unsecured wifi. How does this make them numpties?

--
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Share in a better energy supplier: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg
* Share in cheaper ethical telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/

... "Better three hours too soon than a minute too late" M W of W, Act ii, Sc.2

[Tim Hill]

In article <1508df845...@blueyonder.co.uk>, Harriet Bazley

A pity they haven't read "Marketing for Dummies".

--
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Share in a better energy supplier: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg
* Share in cheaper ethical telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/

... "Praising what is lost, makes the remembrance dear" All's Well, Act v, Sc.3

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts]

Tim Hill <t...@invalid.org.uk> wrote:

>Hmmm. I wonder if that old router has by now had a firmware upgrade.

Possibly; it had one available a long time ago. But I didn't try to install
it because there was no way that I could find to backup the firmware it had
at the time, nor could I find a download of the same firmware.

>I have always found secured wifi mostly as reliable as 'open' which is
>excellent, just so long as you don't go out of range which isn't anything
>like as far in a building as the manufacturers would have you believe!

Mum's house has thick stone walls. I eventually abandoned wifi and use a
powerline system there, as it would have been impossible(*) for me to run a
cabled connection from the place where the cable modem & router are to
either of the places the laptop is normally used in.

* because of minimal underfloor access generally (small crawl space, very
dirty, not enough space to crawl through sub-walls from one area to
another), and no route from downstairs to upstairs that wouldn't have caused
quite substantial damage to decor somewhere - not ok in a house that isn't
mine.

>What you were using for the XP connexion? If it was a particular wifi
>dongle

It was whatever's built-in to the laptop.

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <5284f6d5...@argonet.co.uk>, Stuart

<Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:


> It's almost like spending loads of money buying a car with a maximum
> speed of 150mph when all you need in the UK is something that can do
> 70mph.

When I was about 8 years old we used to have a car park behind where I
lived. I and the other kids used to read the speedo dials in the cars and
be impressed - assuming that if the dial went up to 100mph then that was
how fast the car would go! :-)

So of the claims ISPs make about downloads seem to be based on the same
sort of approach. ;->

[Stuart]

In article <mpro.m2yl9e...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk.invalid>,

Jeremy Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk>
wrote:

> Mum's house has thick stone walls. I eventually abandoned wifi and use
> a powerline system there, as it would have been impossible(*) for me to
> run a cabled connection from the place where the cable modem & router
> are to either of the places the laptop is normally used in.

No stone walls here but the fireplace/chimney does a pretty good job.

Classic 60s design semi, with a through lounge dining room, part separated
by a wall, which presents a fireplace to the lounge end. Two foot thick
and solid brick judging by the amount that had to be hacked away when we
had a "natural flame" gas fire installed, replacing the old "surface
mount" radiant fire, that was there when we moved in. It also encloses the
metal flue from the boiler in the kitchen - I can't remember whether they
lined the main part that carries the gas fire fumes.

Wi-Fi fine in the dining room end, where the router is, and in the bedroom
directly above but "iffy" in the lounge end and hopeless in the two front
bedrooms.

Crawl space - ah yes - boiler suit and scruffy shoes and dust sheets to
stand on when I emerge. Boiler suit etc removed at point of exit, to avoid
spreading the muck around, and shower immediately afterwards - good job I
haven't put on much weight, it's wriggling about on belly job under there.

One access point under the stairs, one in the corner of the lounge by the
hearth. Another, the other side of the sleeper wall, by the party wall, in
between lounge and dining room and, fortunately, whoever installed the
central heating created a gap I could squeeze through to the other side of
the sleeper wall in the dining room.

Cable to upstairs "hidden" by running up the wall beside the boiler
pipework, in the enclosing broom cupboard, and through the airing cupboard
directly above to the loft.

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <almarsoft.8156...@news.orange.fr>, Rick Murray

<heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Apr 2012 12:24:30 +0100, Jim Lesurf <no...@audiomisc.co.uk>
> wrote:

> > Pardon my ignorance of Android. But can you explain why apps provided
> > by the vendor can't be removed? I'd have assumed that if Android is
> > based on linux then the user can become root and do whatever they
> > choose.

> You are perfectly correct.

> In normal mode vendor apps are both blocked from being removed *and*
> (usually) can't be removed from the list of tasks. I have a game onj my
> phone. Run it, it tells me the game is no longer available in Polish
> (WTF?!). Can't uninstall, can't hide.

> You can do all of these things, plus fiddle with the hosts file to kill
> in-app advertising, plus tell applications "no, you can't read my
> contacts" when you are root.

> The problem is being root. You can't log in as such, you can't hook up
> adb (USB debug protocol) and do it that way. You need to push a hacked
> copy of su and a hacked busybox, then trick the phone into running some
> exploit code that will use a vulnerability (how depends upon the phone)

> to break into the OS to get itself root privs. ...

[snip]

Thanks for that. I continue to be amazed by the extent to which people are
expected to put up with such situations. But I guess the makers simply have
the cynical view that they can get away with selling whatever people will
put up with buying. "You want the nice phone? Part of the price is being
under our control."

However if R-Comp is the 'vendor' in this specific case, presumably
prospective purchasers can say they'll only buy *if* the package includes
the ability to have root access and remove any junk they don't want.

I must admit that I'm puzzled by the idea of a Linux system having no
'root' user at all, though. I assume(d) that at least parts of the system
*requires* one - even if no mere user knew the password, etc. Does this not
mean that a vendor/maker can hack into the device without your knowledge or
agreement?

[Stuart]

In article <5284fe2...@audiomisc.co.uk>,

Jim Lesurf <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
> When I was about 8 years old we used to have a car park behind where I
> lived. I and the other kids used to read the speedo dials in the cars and
> be impressed - assuming that if the dial went up to 100mph then that was
> how fast the car would go! :-)

I remember doing exactly the same thing when I was a kid

[Rick Murray]

On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 10:27:55 +0100, Stuart <Spa...@argonet.co.uk>
wrote:

> I remember doing exactly the same thing when I was a kid

Dashed when you'd get something like a Traveller with a Speedo
claiming it can manage 130...


Best wishes,

Rick.

[Rick Murray]

On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 01:33:09 +0100, Tim Hill <t...@invalid.org.uk>
wrote:

> dongle I had here: it was utter crap and was thrown away. SWMBO's
office
> used to have a variety of wireless dongles on their office PCs and
they
> were all useless: couldn't have passed a signal though a paper wall.

There seem to be two types of WiFi kit. One, like my eeePC901 will
adapt speed to conditions. Others, like mom's eeePC1001 and all my
mobile phones stubbornly lock in at 54mbps.

Guess which works better the other side of a metre-thick stone wall.


Best wishes,

Rick.

[charles]

In article <5284fe2...@audiomisc.co.uk>,
Jim Lesurf <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <5284f6d5...@argonet.co.uk>, Stuart
> <Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:


> > It's almost like spending loads of money buying a car with a maximum
> > speed of 150mph when all you need in the UK is something that can do
> > 70mph.

> When I was about 8 years old we used to have a car park behind where I
> lived. I and the other kids used to read the speedo dials in the cars and
> be impressed - assuming that if the dial went up to 100mph then that was
> how fast the car would go! :-)

on the otehr hand, I once saw an old Bentley with "Brooklands lap speed
record" plaque (something like 123mph) on the dashboard. Its rev counter
went up to 3000rpm!

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

[Rick Murray]

On 24/04/2012 02:39, Tim Hill wrote:

>> or those numpties that don't bother to use any [wifi] security at all.
> Okay, I'll bite.
> Starbucks have unsecured wifi. How does this make them numpties?

You'll have to bite harder than that.

We _were_ talking about _domestic_ WiFi, not services that intentionally
offer open WiFi.

( in which case, the numpties are the ones who don't use https and do
stuff like logging into email using cleartext "pop3" - I wonder how
many people use such services on their phones and have unencrypted
email checking every [5|10|15|20] minutes, splatting their passwords
across the airwaves for anybody technically able to snoop? )


Best wishes,

Rick.

[Rick Murray]

On 24/04/2012 00:26, druck wrote:

> No, and surprisingly a mobile phone doesn't come with an adaptor
> allowing it to be plugged in to the Post Office Telephone socket either!
> :-)

???

I thought the "in-phone" socket arrived with BT. The old GPO stuff I've
seen was always a hard-wired connection (a little plastic or bakalite
(sp?!?) lump with four screw terminals inside).

Thinking about it, GPO offered the A and B lines. I wonder when the
split into separate ringer happened? Did GPO support multiple phones on
one line? Perhaps it was introduced to help reduce/stop bell tinkle when
it became possible to daisy-chain phones?

BTW - talking of this, have you seen the French phone plugs? Subtle they
aren't!


Best wishes,

Rick.

[charles]

In article <4f96d0dc$0$21474$ba4a...@reader.news.orange.fr>,

Rick Murray <heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 24/04/2012 00:26, druck wrote:

> > No, and surprisingly a mobile phone doesn't come with an adaptor
> > allowing it to be plugged in to the Post Office Telephone socket either!
> > :-)

> ???

> I thought the "in-phone" socket arrived with BT. The old GPO stuff I've
> seen was always a hard-wired connection (a little plastic or bakalite
> (sp?!?) lump with four screw terminals inside).

there was a 4 pole jack and socket - the socket was in abox about teh same
size as the fixed 'lump'. i've stil got some.

> Thinking about it, GPO offered the A and B lines. I wonder when the
> split into separate ringer happened? Did GPO support multiple phones on
> one line?

Known as "party lines" - we had one in our first house since there weren't
enough lines between the house & the exchange.

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts]

Stuart <Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

>One access point under the stairs, one in the corner of the lounge by the

>hearth. Another, the other side of the sleeper wall...

I don't think I'd see multiple access points as a solution (mean Scot alert)
especially if one still has to link them by wires, with some of the same
crawl-space and decor issues. Or do such multiple APs communicate with each
other by wireless, so provided each one can see one that's one hop closer to
the router it all works?

>Cable to upstairs "hidden" by running up the wall beside the boiler
>pipework, in the enclosing broom cupboard, and through the airing cupboard
>directly above to the loft.

At mum's I was considering a similar route for one cable, but getting the
cable to the downstairs cupboard means craw/decor issues, and getting it
from the upstairs cupboard to anywhere useful was also a problem - it could
have travelled part of the way hidden in a picture rail, but sooner or later
it would have had to emerge and I do not think mum would have been happy.

[John Williams (News)]

In article <4f96d0dc$0$21474$ba4a...@reader.news.orange.fr>,
Rick Murray <heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> bakalite
> (sp?!?)

Bakelite.

Can't your 'phone do Google?

John

--
John Williams, Brittany, Northern France - no attachments to these addresses!
Non-RISC OS posters change user to johnrwilliams or put 'risc' in subject!
Who is John Williams? http://petit.four.free.fr/picindex/author/

[Stuart]

In article <mpro.m2zta4...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk.invalid>,

Jeremy Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk>

wrote:

> >One access point under the stairs, one in the corner of the lounge by
> >the hearth. Another, the other side of the sleeper wall...

> I don't think I'd see multiple access points as a solution (mean Scot
> alert) especially if one still has to link them by wires,

Sorry I think a slight misunderstanding has arisen. By access points I
meant floorboards I could easily remove for me to access the under-floor
space, such as it is, in order to crawl around running in cables.

[Rick Murray]

On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 09:25:59 +0100, Jim Lesurf
<no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:

> Thanks for that. I continue to be amazed by the extent to which
people
> are expected to put up with such situations.

I'm not. Sure, it's an ARM based computer running Linux. But stop
thinking of it like that. Think of it as an "appliance" like most ISP
supplied routers (that are computers and run an OS but won't let you
in) and modern combi-printers (ditto, runs a mini OS and stuff).

> But I guess the makers simply have

...enough on their plates than to worry about support calls to their
hotlines (or the provider's hotlines) thanks to clueless people
trashing the thing by poking around stuff they don't understand?

> "You want the nice phone? Part of the price is being
> under our control."

Point to one phone on the planet that doesn't lock the user out by
default? Apple is famous for it. Windows tries too. If anything, the
situation with Android is better than the days of the "feature phone"
where you put up and shut up. At least you can (usually) root an
Android, tweak it, or go whole hog and toss away the firmware and
drop something else in its place (ie cryogenmod). This may be desired
as some manufacturers are notoriously bad at supporting old phones
(and by old I mean over six months).

My Motorola Defy. Runs 2.1. Won't be getting an update.

This phone, the Xperia Mini Pro, runs 2.3 and will get an ICS-4
update in May although Sony warn that performance sucks (I take that
to mean their add ons are cack, for it appears to run a plain version
of ICS out of the cryogenmod stable well enough). Then there's the
rubbish Orange adds. The Orange front end looks nice. Just a shame it
is slow, clunky, and you can near enough see your battery life ebbing
away as it runs.

> prospective purchasers can say they'll only buy *if* the package
includes
> the ability to have root access and remove any junk they don't want.

Yeah, good luck with that. Most people want an appliance.

I believe ICS allows you to remove vendor-installed apps. I'm cynical
enough to think that vendors may well tweak this feature to make it
less effective.

> I must admit that I'm puzzled by the idea of a Linux system having
no
> 'root' user at all, though. I assume(d) that at least parts of the
system
> *requires* one - even if no mere user knew the password, etc.

There's a root someplace. I don't think Google have messed up Android
that severely. However, there is precious little access to it. I've
not found any hint of a login. It is as if the kernel runs as root
and everything else as the "user", which is auto-started. Nicely, the
operating system is mounted read-only so you can't try poking around.
Even more nicely, quite a lot is blocked from the user. There is a
hell of a lot in /data but while you can enter directories by blind
typing, you don't have the rights to look at anything.

> Does this not mean that a vendor/maker can hack into the device
> without your knowledge or agreement?

Why "hack" when you can build it in? Google for "CarrierIQ". You'll
also find most phones have a "sync" service but few manufacturers
seem to be willing to spell out what exactly is synced, but given my
phone's *default* setting was to share my data *including* WiFi
password with Mountain View...that one damn near made me homicidal.
There are limits and farting my private WPA2 router password to the
damned Americans (and Google, for double whammy points) is so far
beyond the limit that it is looking like suffering an overflow
condition...

And as for the creep at SonyEricsson that decided that the Facebook
app should restart shortly after being manually killed... what's the
rudest thing I can say in Japanese and Swedish? Well, it's just Sony
now, so... yay, a phone by the company that felt that rootkitting its
customers was acceptable practice... <sigh>


Best wishes,

Rick.

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <almarsoft.8386...@news.orange.fr>, Rick Murray

<heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 09:25:59 +0100, Jim Lesurf <no...@audiomisc.co.uk>
> wrote:

> > Thanks for that. I continue to be amazed by the extent to which
> people
> > are expected to put up with such situations.

> I'm not. Sure, it's an ARM based computer running Linux. But stop
> thinking of it like that. Think of it as an "appliance" like most ISP
> supplied routers (that are computers and run an OS but won't let you
> in) and modern combi-printers (ditto, runs a mini OS and stuff).

Yes, I'd agree that is how many vendors want their clients to view such
devices. The argument does sort of run out of plausibilty for me, though,
as you move away from a trouser-press and get to devices onto which you can
install (and write) programs for general purposes.

> > But I guess the makers simply have

> ...enough on their plates than to worry about support calls to their
> hotlines (or the provider's hotlines) thanks to clueless people
> trashing the thing by poking around stuff they don't understand?

The sheep/goats line could simply be asking the vendor for the password for
root. They give it to you on the basis that, "Use this and most of your
warrant and support is voided. Your choice."

In the end I guess it all comes down to the old but savage maxim. "It is
the slave who makes slavery possible." If people refused to put up with
this, the behaviour would die out. But as you point out, companies like
Apple, etc, thrive.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <4f96d0dc$0$21474$ba4a...@reader.news.orange.fr>,

Rick Murray <heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> I thought the "in-phone" socket arrived with BT. The old GPO stuff I've
> seen was always a hard-wired connection (a little plastic or bakalite
> (sp?!?) lump with four screw terminals inside).

There was an earlier system using jack plugs - but not very common.

> Thinking about it, GPO offered the A and B lines. I wonder when the
> split into separate ringer happened? Did GPO support multiple phones on
> one line? Perhaps it was introduced to help reduce/stop bell tinkle when
> it became possible to daisy-chain phones?

Before the current system, you could have multiple phones on one line (up
to about 5, depending on the ringing volts) which had to be altered
internally to put the bells in series, so were hard wired, as the first
phone, intermediate(s) and last phone mods were different. The GPO plug in
system also required you to have one hard wired phone or an extension bell
so there would always be a ring even with the other phone(s) unplugged.

The current BT 3 wire plug in system was designed when phones still had
bells. With the advent of the very high impedance sounder it's not really
needed.

> BTW - talking of this, have you seen the French phone plugs? Subtle they
> aren't!

--
*Parenthetical remarks (however relevant) are (usually) unnecessary *

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[John Williams (News)]

In article <5285e1e...@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman (News)
<da...@davenoise.co.uk> quoted:

> In article <4f96d0dc$0$21474$ba4a...@reader.news.orange.fr>, Rick Murray
> <heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> > BTW - talking of this, have you seen the French phone plugs? Subtle
> > they aren't!

Actually, France Telecom are now using RJ45 sockets on new installations -
which could potentially be a bit confusing! It certainly confused me first
time I saw them.

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts]

Jim Lesurf <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:

> The sheep/goats line could simply be asking the vendor for the password
> for root. They give it to you on the basis that, "Use this and most of
> your warrant and support is voided. Your choice."

They'll never do that because once you've got the password for your
mass-produced phone, you can screw up other people's phones.

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <mpro.m317nm...@wingsandbeaks.org.uk.invalid>, Jeremy

Nicoll - news posts <jn.nntp....@wingsandbeaks.org.uk> wrote:

> Jim Lesurf <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:

> > The sheep/goats line could simply be asking the vendor for the
> > password for root. They give it to you on the basis that, "Use this
> > and most of your warrant and support is voided. Your choice."

> They'll never do that because once you've got the password for your
> mass-produced phone, you can screw up other people's phones.

That's an interesting point. It implies that as soon as one or two people
know how to become root, then all the machines sold by that vendor may be
open to them. I was assuming the password/equivalent would be randomised or
based on some individual value, so differ from one machine to the next. But
maybe the vendors simply take for granted that isn't needed.

[Rick Murray]

On 24/04/2012 18:27, charles wrote:

> there was a 4 pole jack and socket

Ah yes, I vaguely remember those - the jack was about the same size as
the old-style headphone jack before the smaller walkman-sized ones
became the norm, yes?

> Known as "party lines" - we had one in our first house since there weren't
> enough lines between the house& the exchange.

What's this, the phone rings and everybody answers to see who it's for?
Thank goodness I never used a modem on one of those - fire up the client
and then run around to tell all my neighbours "don't pick up the phone
for the next hour!".
How was billing arranged?


Best wishes,

Rick.

[Rick Murray]

On 24/04/2012 18:51, John Williams (News) wrote:

>> bakalite
>> (sp?!?)
> Bakelite.
> Can't your 'phone do Google?

Of course it can. Doesn't mean I interrupt a thought in order to look up
how to spell a word I use less than once per year...


Best wishes,

Rick.

[charles]

In article <4f9c575f$0$12512$ba4a...@reader.news.orange.fr>,

Rick Murray <heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 24/04/2012 18:27, charles wrote:

> > there was a 4 pole jack and socket

> Ah yes, I vaguely remember those - the jack was about the same size as
> the old-style headphone jack before the smaller walkman-sized ones
> became the norm, yes?


> > Known as "party lines" - we had one in our first house since there

> > weren't enough lines between the house & the exchange.

> What's this, the phone rings and everybody answers to see who it's for?

No, ringing was between A leg and earth or B leg and earth. You just had
to remmber to pick up the phone to see if the other party was using it,
beofre starting to dial.

> Thank goodness I never used a modem on one of those - fire up the client
> and then run around to tell all my neighbours "don't pick up the phone
> for the next hour!".

I suspect they vanished long before modems came on the scene. Ours became
an exclusive line about 1967.

.
> How was billing arranged?

same wasy as calling, I assume.

[Rick Murray]

On 25/04/2012 10:03, Jim Lesurf wrote:

> The argument does sort of run out of plausibilty for me, though, as
> you move away from a trouser-press and get to devices onto which you
> can install (and write) programs for general purposes.

Not necessarily. You could write programs for the Psion organiser
(usually in OPL, but other options existed) yet your access to the
device was more or less the same regardless.

Ditto "featurephones" that have a J2MME environment, can run code, but
otherwise act as exactly what it says on the tin.

Ditto a programmable calculator. Some how written some amusingly
abstract programs for those things. It's still a calculator.

Likewise a smartphone. It can, subject to size restrictions, do more or
less what a "real computer" can do, only a little slower. It's still, at
the end, a phone. Just one with unending heaps of "features".

> The sheep/goats line could simply be asking the vendor for the
> password for root.

Useless - unless you can figure out how to got to where you could
attempt to login as root.

As far as I can see, the general method of rooting is to use an exploit
on a known vulnerability - why bother with that if it was possible to
simply determine (ie Google for) the root password?

> If people refused to put up with this, the behaviour would die out.

I don't know. I think people are less likely to put up with EFI
bootloaders looking for "signed" images, as it:
1. Doesn't do a lot to prevent contaminated (pwned) systems from
booting up.
2. Restricts what you are able to be able to run on said system - can
you pop in a Minix3 CD and boot it? Probably not...
3. Is an idea promoted by Microsoft which is, arguably, THE biggest IT
security issue in the last decade or so - what with their user
accounts in the most popular version of Windows to date defaulting
to Administrator access...

On the other hand, a smartphone is a phone. People hack it to run
alternative builds of Android, but... more or less it is a domestic
market appliance. Just one with more capabilities than usual.

> But as you point out, companies like Apple, etc, thrive.

<cough> Yeah. I think what annoys me most about Apple is that they slap
a rather nice (and yes, what little I've seen of iOS, it IS nice) on top
of "average" hardware (it has good points, it has bad points, overall it
seems to be "average") designed more for aesthetics than anything else
(coo, let's make a feature of the radio antenna and screw the laws of
physics!). This "average-but-glossy" object is then hyped beyond
recognition - can we do 4G? errr... Can Siri do all the stuff mentioned
in the adverts? Errr... Even Big-Woz thinks Siri is suffering from some
sort of senility! I, with my almost home counties accent tried a search
using a cow-orker's iPhone and my own Android.

"A long long time ago in a galaxy far far away."

Siri offered a site for something you stick on your breasts to collect
milk. We then switched it to English and it offered up search results
for Star Wars. Not bad.

My phone offered the top result being a wiki link to the Star Wars
opening crawl. This was arguably a better result as it narrowed down
more specifically what I was referring to, plus perhaps noted that I
tend to look up rubbish like that on Wiki a lot [1].

I then repeated the same phrase, only "singing" it in the style of a
karuta reader [2]. The iPhone asked me to repeat. Google replied with
almost the exact same list, only at the top this time was a Weird Al
Yankovic song containing...those very words. Quite clever!


Though, when all is said and done, I wouldn't run RISC OS on my phone.
Nor a desktop Linux. I'm probably one of the few geeks in the world that
hasn't rooted the thing. As I see it, it is a cross between a toy and a
useful device. Something to have fun with. Privacy aside, it works okay
as it is, no need to fiddle around inside it.


1 - I wouldn't trust Wiki alone for important stuff, but it is okay for
things like "what's an average BMI?" or "explain hentaigana" or "when is
the next Haruhi Suzumiya novel going to be released?".

2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v32HHLcpmSE


To drag this vaguely on-topic, somebody with up to date experience with
RISC OS might like to take a look at the Wiki page for ADFS. 77 objects
in a directory? Max size of 512Mb? Even the text further down the page
contradicts the summary. Parts of that page need a rewrite to reflect
modern reality.



Best wishes,

Rick.

[spampling]

In article <5287ac2c...@charleshope.demon.co.uk>, charles

<cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f9c575f$0$12512$ba4a...@reader.news.orange.fr>, Rick
> Murray <heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> > What's this, the phone rings and everybody answers to see who it's
> > for?

> No, ringing was between A leg and earth or B leg and earth. You just
> had to remmber to pick up the phone to see if the other party was using
> it, beofre starting to dial.

> > Thank goodness I never used a modem on one of those - fire up the
> > client and then run around to tell all my neighbours "don't pick up
> > the phone for the next hour!".

> I suspect they vanished long before modems came on the scene. Ours
> became an exclusive line about 1967. .

Party lines were still in use in the 70's

But home internet was obviously much later.

--

Steve Pampling

[Tim Hill]

In article <4f96cffb$0$21495$ba4a...@reader.news.orange.fr>, Rick Murray

<heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 24/04/2012 02:39, Tim Hill wrote:

> >> or those numpties that don't bother to use any [wifi] security at
> >> all.
> > Okay, I'll bite. Starbucks have unsecured wifi. How does this make
> > them numpties?

> You'll have to bite harder than that.

> We _were_ talking about _domestic_ WiFi,

_This_ _is_ _Usenet_.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&ie=ASCII&prev=_t&sl=de&tl=en&twu=1&u=http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thread-Drift

> not services that
> intentionally offer open WiFi.

> ( in which case, the numpties are the ones who don't use https and do
> stuff like logging into email using cleartext "pop3" - I wonder how
> many people use such services on their phones and have unencrypted
> email checking every [5|10|15|20] minutes, splatting their passwords
> across the airwaves for anybody technically able to snoop? )

I'll be having a large coffee with Wireshark for Android soon. Just out
of curiosity, of course. ;-)

--
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Share in a better energy supplier: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg
* Share in cheaper ethical telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/

... "Oh ! the difference of man and man" K Lear, Act iv, Sc.2

[Tim Hill]

In article <4f9c57ca$0$12512$ba4a...@reader.news.orange.fr>, Rick Murray

C'mon, make an effort and have fun!

http://www.riscos.sprie.nl/Pages/Dict.html

--
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Share in a better energy supplier: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg
* Share in cheaper ethical telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/

... "O, two such silver currents, when they join, do glorify the banks than bound them in" King John, Act ii, Sc.2

[Tim Hill]

In article <5285e1e...@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman (News)

<da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f96d0dc$0$21474$ba4a...@reader.news.orange.fr>, Rick
> Murray <heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > I thought the "in-phone" socket arrived with BT. The old GPO stuff
> > I've seen was always a hard-wired connection (a little plastic or
> > bakalite (sp?!?) lump with four screw terminals inside).

> There was an earlier system using jack plugs - but not very common.

They were very common. I knew loads of homes which had them. It was
common to move "the" phone from one room's socket to another's.

Now that BT are responsible only as far as the master socket. (In theory)
you can wire up phones with chocolate boxes if you like, though I find
soldered connections more reliable (for broadband) than either those or
the rj45.

> > Thinking about it, GPO offered the A and B lines. I wonder when the
> > split into separate ringer happened?

Don't remember when they split but even today only two distinct wires
enter your premises for a single line. The creation of the extra two
lines is in your master socket.

[Snip]

--
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Share in a better energy supplier: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg
* Share in cheaper ethical telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/

... "Love sought is good, but given unsought is better" Twelfth N, Act iii, Sc.1

[Tim Hill]

In article <5284fe2...@audiomisc.co.uk>, Jim Lesurf
<no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <5284f6d5...@argonet.co.uk>, Stuart
> <Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:


> > It's almost like spending loads of money buying a car with a maximum
> > speed of 150mph when all you need in the UK is something that can do
> > 70mph.

That makes perfect sense if you want performance, fuel economy (really!)
and comfortable cruising at 70. My bike has a top speed of 120+ but I
don't do that on a public road. It makes cruising at 70 a breeze but
doing that on a bike or in a car with a top speed of 80 mph means you are
thrashing it and can't go up hills at all well.

Of course, silver german cars are often in need of speed limiters.

> When I was about 8 years old we used to have a car park behind where I
> lived. I and the other kids used to read the speedo dials in the cars
> and be impressed - assuming that if the dial went up to 100mph then
> that was how fast the car would go! :-)

Better than my activity in car parks as a boy. Frying eggs on hot bonnets
was a favourite pastime. That and swapping otherwise identical cars'
differently coloured fuels caps.

Yes, at one time, nobody had a locking petrol cap because gas was cheaper
than chips.

> So of the claims ISPs make about downloads seem to be based on the same
> sort of approach. ;->

The emphasis is on "UP TO", which speed you get only if you live in a
phone exchange.

--
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Share in a better energy supplier: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg
* Share in cheaper ethical telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/

... "Take honour from me, and my life is done" Richard II, Act i, Sc.1

[Rick Murray]

On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 01:00:00 +0100, Tim Hill <t...@invalid.org.uk>
wrote:

> I'll be having a large coffee with Wireshark for Android soon. Just
out
> of curiosity, of course. ;-)

Hmm, because of how Android presents the WiFi adaptor, you need a
rooted phone to get these things to work. Shame, WireSharking a
McDonalds with a laptop ain't too inconspicuous.


Best wishes,

Rick.

[Rick Murray]

On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 01:03:10 +0100, Tim Hill <t...@invalid.org.uk>
wrote:

> C'mon, make an effort and have fun!

Effort? Me?
The titular character of the animé Hy?ka ought to be, like, my hero,
or something.


> http://www.riscos.sprie.nl/Pages/Dict.html

This is more my speed: http://heyrick.co.uk/software/jiten/

It's a more-or-less clean-room port of !Jiten; though to be honest
"Jed" on my phone does this with bells on. Or Google translate if you
don't mind amusingly quirky mistranslations.


Best wishes,

Rick.

[David Holden]

> In article <5285e1e...@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman (News)
> <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <4f96d0dc$0$21474$ba4a...@reader.news.orange.fr>, Rick
> > Murray <heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > Thinking about it, GPO offered the A and B lines. I wonder when the
> > > split into separate ringer happened?
>
> Don't remember when they split but even today only two distinct wires
> enter your premises for a single line. The creation of the extra two
> lines is in your master socket.

Where there were extensions a separate ringer line was split off at the 1st
phone. The bell was then separated from the A-B lines at all the
intermediate phones and connected to the B line at the last phone. This had
the effect of wiring the bells in series which meant that they didn't draw
too much current. All phones except one could be fitted with a switch which
shorted out the bell, thus enabling ringing to be turned off when not
required, eg, in a bedroom.

A secondary affect was that as there was only one bell line the
'anti-tinkle' circuit worked across all the phones. In case you don't know
this is a little switch which disables the ring line when the dial is moved.
Otherwise as you dial (pulse dialing, remember) all the bells would all go
ting-ting-ting-ting in sympathy.

With the old jack sockets the 1st socket generated the ring line and the
last terminated it (just as with wired phones) and if a jack was removed the
in/out parts of the ring line had to be joined together to ensure circuit
continuity.

After the introduction of the modern socket system with master/slave sockets
for many years there was still a separate ring line. This was because there
was an overlap between the new sockets and the end of the old dial phones
and pulse dialing. Early digital phones often had a pulse/tone switch. Now
it's all digital equipment and tone dialing it's unnecessary but the
provision still exists.

--
David Holden - APDL - <http://www.apdl.co.uk>

[Harriet Bazley]

On 30 Apr 2012 as I do recall,
David Holden wrote:

[snip]

> Where there were extensions a separate ringer line was split off at the 1st
> phone. The bell was then separated from the A-B lines at all the
> intermediate phones and connected to the B line at the last phone. This had
> the effect of wiring the bells in series which meant that they didn't draw
> too much current. All phones except one could be fitted with a switch which
> shorted out the bell, thus enabling ringing to be turned off when not
> required, eg, in a bedroom.
>
> A secondary affect was that as there was only one bell line the
> 'anti-tinkle' circuit worked across all the phones. In case you don't know
> this is a little switch which disables the ring line when the dial is moved.
> Otherwise as you dial (pulse dialing, remember) all the bells would all go
> ting-ting-ting-ting in sympathy.
>

Oh, so *that's* why the downstairs phone tinkles whenever anyone dials
out from the upstairs extension :-)

(I've always thought that if you counted the tinkles it ought to be
possible to work out how far round the dial each digit was located, and
hence deduce what number was being rung - a cross between touch-tone
dialling and table-rapping in a seance!)

--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

Reality is for people who can't face science fiction.

[Alan Dawes]

In article <94fa188c5...@blueyonder.co.uk>,

Harriet Bazley <baz...@feathermail.co.uk> wrote:
> I've always thought that if you counted the tinkles it ought to be
> possible to work out how far round the dial each digit was located, and
> hence deduce what number was being rung - a cross between touch-tone
> dialling and table-rapping in a seance!

That reminds me of the old type telephone box outside the school I went to
in the late '50s early '60s. By tapping the hand set cradle at the same
rate as the clicks you normally got from the dial, you could ring a number
(the local exchange had recently changed from manual to STD) and for some
reason not have to pay.

Alan

--
alan....@argonet.co.uk
alan....@riscos.org
Using an Acorn RiscPC