Re: Super ARMini price drops at SW Show

[ChrisF]

In message <ap.5c92aa5320.a...@argonet.co.uk>
A Rawnsley <rc...@rcomp.co.uk> wrote:



> If you can't make the SW show for any reason, but are keen to take
> advantage of the price cuts, please drop us an email ASAP. We have a
> fixed amount of units available, and whilst our focus this time around
> is on delivering SW show visitors some great savings, those that don't
> make the show will be treated on a "first come, first served" basis
> afterwards.

Always interested in special deals and Durham is just too far to
travel from for me.


--
BW Chris F. [Supporting British RISC OS computing.]
Skype: c.n.l.f Twitter: MrChrisGB Blogsite: mr-chris-gb.blogspot.com
"It is an inconvenient truth for the Secretary of State that the
international evidence he so frequently cites emphasises the
importance of tackling the causes of poverty and social and economic
inequality that blight children and young people's educational
prospects, something which the Coalition Government fails to do."
Chris Keats.

[Alexander Ausserstorfer]

In message <ap.5c92aa5320.a...@argonet.co.uk>
A Rawnsley <rc...@rcomp.co.uk> wrote:

>

> R-Comp Interactive is pleased to announce that our ARMini ARM-powered
> RISC OS computers will be available at super discounts at the SW show
> this coming weekend (Feb 23rd). This isn't a case of "same price,
> free accessories", but rather cold, hard, price reductions to try and
> lower the barrier of entry for people looking to own a next-gen RISC
> OS computer. Final prices will be announced on the day, but we
> promise we're trying to drop that cost-barrier as low as we can.

Good news. However, the problem here is that I already have _three_
working Acorn computers (2 RISC PCs and 1 A7000+) here and I haven't
place or use for one more.

A.

--
This message was sent from an Acorn RISC PC (built in 1995).
http://home.chiemgau-net.de/ausserstorfer/

[Simon Smith]

In message <1af76d2...@bavariasound.chiemgau-net.de>

Alexander Ausserstorfer <bavari...@chiemgau-net.de> wrote:

> In message <ap.5c92aa5320.a...@argonet.co.uk>
> A Rawnsley <rc...@rcomp.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> > R-Comp Interactive is pleased to announce that our ARMini ARM-powered
> > RISC OS computers will be available at super discounts at the SW show
> > this coming weekend (Feb 23rd). This isn't a case of "same price,
> > free accessories", but rather cold, hard, price reductions to try and
> > lower the barrier of entry for people looking to own a next-gen RISC
> > OS computer. Final prices will be announced on the day, but we
> > promise we're trying to drop that cost-barrier as low as we can.
>
> Good news. However, the problem here is that I already have _three_
> working Acorn computers (2 RISC PCs and 1 A7000+) here and I haven't
> place or use for one more.
>
> A.

They're only small. Not as tiny as a Pi, but...

--
Simon Smith

When emailing me, please use my preferred email address, which is on my web
site at http://www.simon-smith.org

[Ste (news)]

In article <f18383215...@zen.co.uk>,

Simon Smith <simon_sm...@zen.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <1af76d2...@bavariasound.chiemgau-net.de>
> Alexander Ausserstorfer <bavari...@chiemgau-net.de> wrote:
> > Good news. However, the problem here is that I already have _three_
> > working Acorn computers (2 RISC PCs and 1 A7000+) here and I haven't
> > place or use for one more.
>

> They're only small. Not as tiny as a Pi, but...

They are also a damn sight faster than RiscPC or A7000+ machines.

Also, by buying this sort of thing, you're putting money into the RISC OS
community which is one of the few things which will ensure you _have_ any
RISC OS development happening in future. :)

(At risk of starting a flame war, I know...)

Ta,

Steve

--
Steve Revill @ Home
Note: All opinions expressed herein are my own.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <5321952...@revi11.plus.com>,

Ste (news) <st...@revi11.plus.com> wrote:
> In article <f18383215...@zen.co.uk>,
> Simon Smith <simon_sm...@zen.co.uk> wrote:
> > In message <1af76d2...@bavariasound.chiemgau-net.de>
> > Alexander Ausserstorfer <bavari...@chiemgau-net.de> wrote:
> > > Good news. However, the problem here is that I already have _three_
> > > working Acorn computers (2 RISC PCs and 1 A7000+) here and I haven't
> > > place or use for one more.
> >
> > They're only small. Not as tiny as a Pi, but...

> They are also a damn sight faster than RiscPC or A7000+ machines.

> Also, by buying this sort of thing, you're putting money into the RISC OS
> community which is one of the few things which will ensure you _have_ any
> RISC OS development happening in future. :)

> (At risk of starting a flame war, I know...)

I notice there is no price given - just 'price drop' And I won't be going
to the SW show.

Your sentiments are perhaps laudable, but until I can get a RISC OS
machine that does everything I expect from my PC, there's absolutely no
point in upgrading this RPC.

--
*I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing *

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Doug Webb]

In message <532198c...@davenoise.co.uk>

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <5321952...@revi11.plus.com>,
> Ste (news) <st...@revi11.plus.com> wrote:
>> In article <f18383215...@zen.co.uk>,
>> Simon Smith <simon_sm...@zen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <1af76d2...@bavariasound.chiemgau-net.de>
>>> Alexander Ausserstorfer <bavari...@chiemgau-net.de> wrote:
>>>> Good news. However, the problem here is that I already have _three_
>>>> working Acorn computers (2 RISC PCs and 1 A7000+) here and I haven't
>>>> place or use for one more.
>>>
>>> They're only small. Not as tiny as a Pi, but...

>> They are also a damn sight faster than RiscPC or A7000+ machines.

>> Also, by buying this sort of thing, you're putting money into the RISC OS
>> community which is one of the few things which will ensure you _have_ any
>> RISC OS development happening in future. :)

>> (At risk of starting a flame war, I know...)

> I notice there is no price given - just 'price drop' And I won't be going
> to the SW show.

> Your sentiments are perhaps laudable, but until I can get a RISC OS
> machine that does everything I expect from my PC, there's absolutely no
> point in upgrading this RPC.

Catch 22

No money coming in , no development, no development and features do
not get added, no must have new features no sales, no sales no money
and repeat the cycle...

Whilst I understand people are not always able to support developments
with hard cash it has never been easier and at such a low entry point
in to modern RISC OS machines and unless more people do then the cycle
will be a terminal one.

--
See and experience the future using ARM Technology - BeagleBoard -xM,
Cortex A8 and RISC OS 5.19.

[Rick Murray]

On 21/02/2013 19:17, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> Your sentiments are perhaps laudable, but until I can get a RISC OS
> machine that does everything I expect from my PC,

Let's see... Checklist for future development of RISC OS:

* Ease of infection by viruses (virii?) leading to the necessity to
hobble the operating system with one of many anti-virus products, the
effectiveness of which remains to be proven.
* Make the system treat certain areas as untouchable, even by the
administrator, so if a virus gets in there you are screwed as many
antivirus solutions won't even see it. [TDSS, anybody? the extent was
discovered by a routine Microsoft patch that tripped it up on many
*MANY* infected machines]
* Get rid of all of the various configuration files and dump everything
into a single easy-to-muck-up registry.
* Supply the OS *without* support for the most common video and audio
formats, requiring the user to look up online how to "apt-get" to
install what they want because the distro people are too busy making a
political point...
* Provide two entirely different printing subsystems and ensure the one
supplied is the one that is incompatible with the user's printer; then
provide a set of instructions to change this which must run to a dozen
pages of technical gibberish, and step seventeen will be wrong which
will throw everything else off.
* The UI must change significantly between releases just to show how far
the platform is progressing. It isn't arbitrary and it isn't designed to
piss off users. Seriously. Metro^WModern and Unity are useful UIs, honest!
* It is absolutely mandatory for applications to "check in" with their
web server at every given opportunity. This is to check for updates, and
leak god-knows-what information as a side effect.
* Pop-up menus are for losers. We absolutely must lose sixteen-odd
pixels per window for a menu bar which will be, like, the LEAST used
part of the API but sod it, it must always be there because users will
be too stupid to find it otherwise.
* UI skinning is AWESOME!!! - now every friggin' application can look
completely different. This is the future, really...
* Have you ever read a man page? Did it make sense to you? Have you ever
asked your mother to read it? Did it make sense to her?
* Obfuscated command line nonsense. My personal bugbear is "mount" and
"umount". Really, was the 'n' in "u*n*mount" really so difficult? As for
command line OPTIONS... http://xkcd.com/1168/
* Hey, I know, don't licence software to a person, how about it gets
licenced to a specific computer - so if you splash a wad on Office for
your PC, when you upgrade your PC, you'll need to buy^Wrelicence Office
all over again!



Seriously, I understand that RISC OS lags way behind all the cool stuff
you can do on the average PC (and fake pretty well on a half decent
smartphone).

Thing is, I don't use RISC OS and my PC for the same things. Internety
stuff and anim�/movies are the domain of the PC. Development and being a
geek for fun is RISC OS. I'd prob'ly do more if I had some sort of LCD
panel that accepted HDMI; you can't do a heck of a lot with S-video or
composite 'cos you are rather tightly restricted in screen dimensions...

> there's absolutely no point in upgrading this RPC.

RaspberryPi is just thirty-odd quid. RISC OS for it is a download away.
You may or may not need new monitor/mouse/keyboard, depends what sort of
spares you have around.
You would be pretty damned amazed at how it runs. The RiscPC is a slow
processor (40-220MHzish) connected to an insanely slow bus, talking to
memory so slow that faulty SIMMs that couldn't handle operation at 66MHz
(due to CPU meltdown thanks to dud fan) work faultlessly in the RiscPC,
talking to an aging video controller, and talking to an I/O bus that
runs at 8MHz flat out.
It is basically a snail on a bicycle riding through mud.

Ask if anybody or any RISC OS show near you has a Pi they can let you
play with. A Pi is a poor man's Beagle. And that's nothing compared to
the OMAP4 thingy (the name of which I forget). You. Will. Be. Impressed.


And no, it won't do the cool stuff that PCs do. That's why I have both.
Each is different, I'm okay with that.


Best wishes,

Rick.

[Alexander Ausserstorfer]

In message <d6829f2153...@doug.j.webb.btinternet.com>

Doug Webb <doug....@btinternet.com> wrote:

> In message <532198c...@davenoise.co.uk>
> "Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> No money coming in , no development, no development and features do
> not get added, no must have new features no sales, no sales no money
> and repeat the cycle...

You cannot eat money. What I want to say is that it is often a misbelief
_alone_ to spend money helps because money itself cannot develop RISC
OS. What "we" still need are people which are able to develop RISC OS
and fight for it by hearth and soul and also which are using it.

Me, I bought the first Acorn computer in january 1994. The next Acorn
shop was in Waterbourgh (Wasserburg), around 31 km away from here. The
shop was closed in 1995. Instead of changing the computer system, I
fighted for it in the way that I learned to call the right people
anywhere in the world to get what I needed. I was around 16 years old I
went to my bank branch and instructed the managers there to transfer
some money to U. K. This was happen around 7 years before the f****** Euro came.

Also, I found ways to approach information for my system. The Internet
wasn't very popular that time. It was very important to know and to have
contact to the right people like Herbert zur Nedden (GAG). Most of
things I had to do by myself just with the information I found because
nobody here in our area was able to help me. The system was total
unknown to them.

Money may help - but I think it is the last we really need. There are a
lot of things which are more important to have. In first place people
who are willing to do something meaning- et useful for the architecture
or platform.

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~lrtc/computers/acorn_ro/acorn/

"A engineer at Acorn in 1985, proposed that Acorn create their own
processor. Herman liked the idea but gave something that Intel had
not, no money and no people."

In history, Germany spent a lot of money in projects like

The GROWIAN:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconventional_wind_turbines

Schneller Br�ter:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schneller_Br%C3%BCter

ATM:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asynchronous_Transfer_Mode

Siemens Forschungszentrum f�r Computer in M�nchen:
http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-13528190.html

As positive contrast: The GNU-project: http://www.gnu.org which is
_free_.

Merry Christmas to everyone! *

A.

(* today, we have around 1 m of snow here in the Chiemgau)

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <51269d2e$0$9020$ba4a...@reader.news.orange.fr>,

Rick Murray <heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> RaspberryPi is just thirty-odd quid. RISC OS for it is a download away.
> You may or may not need new monitor/mouse/keyboard, depends what sort of
> spares you have around.
> You would be pretty damned amazed at how it runs. The RiscPC is a slow
> processor (40-220MHzish) connected to an insanely slow bus, talking to
> memory so slow that faulty SIMMs that couldn't handle operation at 66MHz
> (due to CPU meltdown thanks to dud fan) work faultlessly in the RiscPC,
> talking to an aging video controller, and talking to an I/O bus that
> runs at 8MHz flat out.
> It is basically a snail on a bicycle riding through mud.

> Ask if anybody or any RISC OS show near you has a Pi they can let you
> play with. A Pi is a poor man's Beagle. And that's nothing compared to
> the OMAP4 thingy (the name of which I forget). You. Will. Be. Impressed.

I *really* can't see the Pi replacing this RPC for the things I use it for
easily or cheaply. And for the things I do use it for, I don't find it
annoyingly slow.

What do you use if for where the better speed is all important?

Does anyone use a Pi except for playing with?

--
*Drugs may lead to nowhere, but at least it's the scenic route *

[John Williams (News)]

In article <5321f29...@davenoise.co.uk>,

Dave Plowman (News) <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> What do you use if for where the better speed is all important?

> Does anyone use a Pi except for playing with?

The RPi is now my main m/c.

I have two Pis, actually; one runs RISC OS and the other Linux. They drive
a 24" HD iiyama monitor and also share, and are powered by, a mains-driven
10 port USB hub switched with a USB switch designed to share peripherals
between two computers.

In this case the switch also switches the power between the two m/cs, thus
auto-switching the auto-sensing monitor at the same time.

I intend to put them on a board mounted behind the monitor with the VESA
mounting screws.

The RISC OS m/c is networked by cable, and the Linux m/c with a wireless
dongle.

All that will be visible will be the hub (with peripherals), keyboard and
mouse, and a USB HD I already had.

John

--
John Williams, Brittany, Northern France - no attachments to these addresses!
Non-RISC OS posters change user to johnrwilliams or put 'risc' in subject!
Who is John Williams? http://petit.four.free.fr/picindex/author/

[John Rickman Iyonix]

Dave Plowman (News) wrote

> Does anyone use a Pi except for playing with?

It is just a computer so why wouldn't you?

I have 2 Pis and an Iyonix all plugged into a 24" BENQ using HDMI,
DVI, and Analog inputs. Screen switching is very quick.

One of the Pis runs Linux and is used mostly for JavaScript browsing.
The other is RISC OS and has seemless access to all the software and
storage on the Iyonix.

I have a third Pi, which is destined to be a XBMC server.


--
John Rickman - http://rickman.orpheusweb.co.uk/lynx
"Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darueber muss man schweigen."

[charles]

In article <5321f29...@davenoise.co.uk>,
Dave Plowman (News) <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <51269d2e$0$9020$ba4a...@reader.news.orange.fr>,
> Rick Murray <heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > RaspberryPi is just thirty-odd quid. RISC OS for it is a download away.
> > You may or may not need new monitor/mouse/keyboard, depends what sort of
> > spares you have around.
> > You would be pretty damned amazed at how it runs. The RiscPC is a slow
> > processor (40-220MHzish) connected to an insanely slow bus, talking to
> > memory so slow that faulty SIMMs that couldn't handle operation at 66MHz
> > (due to CPU meltdown thanks to dud fan) work faultlessly in the RiscPC,
> > talking to an aging video controller, and talking to an I/O bus that
> > runs at 8MHz flat out.
> > It is basically a snail on a bicycle riding through mud.

> > Ask if anybody or any RISC OS show near you has a Pi they can let you
> > play with. A Pi is a poor man's Beagle. And that's nothing compared to
> > the OMAP4 thingy (the name of which I forget). You. Will. Be. Impressed.

> I *really* can't see the Pi replacing this RPC for the things I use it for
> easily or cheaply. And for the things I do use it for, I don't find it
> annoyingly slow.

> What do you use if for where the better speed is all important?

Anything that involves pictures, I suspect. that's why I moved to an Iyonix
for DTP work. Something eevn faster would be better.

> Does anyone use a Pi except for playing with?

--

From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <bee900225...@rickman.argonet.co.uk>,

John Rickman Iyonix <ric...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> Dave Plowman (News) wrote

> > Does anyone use a Pi except for playing with?

> It is just a computer so why wouldn't you?

> I have 2 Pis and an Iyonix all plugged into a 24" BENQ using HDMI,
> DVI, and Analog inputs. Screen switching is very quick.

> One of the Pis runs Linux and is used mostly for JavaScript browsing.
> The other is RISC OS and has seemless access to all the software and
> storage on the Iyonix.

> I have a third Pi, which is destined to be a XBMC server.

Snag with me would be the cost of replacing all the peripherals since I
assume the Pi can't use the same HDs, keyboard, CD recorder, printer etc
as the RPC.

And I happen to like using an old Acorn keyboard along with a cordless
mouse - both PS2, shared with my PC via a KVM switch.

--
*Wrinkled was not one of the things I wanted to be when I grew up

[JV]

In message <5321fa10...@tiscali.co.uk>

"John Williams (News)" <UCE...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <5321f29...@davenoise.co.uk>,
> Dave Plowman (News) <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

>> What do you use if for where the better speed is all important?

>> Does anyone use a Pi except for playing with?

> The RPi is now my main m/c.

> I have two Pis, actually; one runs RISC OS and the other Linux. They drive
> a 24" HD iiyama monitor and also share, and are powered by, a mains-driven
> 10 port USB hub switched with a USB switch designed to share peripherals
> between two computers.

Can you tell me which usb switched hub you use.

> In this case the switch also switches the power between the two m/cs, thus
> auto-switching the auto-sensing monitor at the same time.

> I intend to put them on a board mounted behind the monitor with the VESA
> mounting screws.

I would like to do this as well.

> The RISC OS m/c is networked by cable, and the Linux m/c with a wireless
> dongle.

I've got this setup as well.

> All that will be visible will be the hub (with peripherals), keyboard and
> mouse, and a USB HD I already had.

> John

JV

[John Williams (News)]

In article <abfc05...@Maypolecottage.demon.co.uk>,

JV <gro...@wellowvillage.co.uk> wrote:

> Can you tell me which usb switched hub you use.

The 10 port hub is Duronic USB2.0 10 port hub:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Duronic-USB10BH-BLACK-AQUADAM-480Mbps/sim/B0058HTJNO/2

and the USB sharer switch is unbranded but cost 7.99 and came from CDL
Micro via Amazon freepost in a little envelope:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=usb+share+switch&tag=googhydr-21&index=aps&hvadid=11180897340&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13709241371810116277&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&ref=pd_sl_2b7cskbj8b_b

John

--
John Williams, now back in the UK - no attachments to these addresses!

[Nick Roberts]

In message <5321f29...@davenoise.co.uk>

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <51269d2e$0$9020$ba4a...@reader.news.orange.fr>,
> Rick Murray <heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > RaspberryPi is just thirty-odd quid. RISC OS for it is a download
> > away. You may or may not need new monitor/mouse/keyboard, depends
> > what sort of spares you have around. You would be pretty damned
> > amazed at how it runs. The RiscPC is a slow processor
> > (40-220MHzish) connected to an insanely slow bus, talking to
> > memory so slow that faulty SIMMs that couldn't handle operation at
> > 66MHz (due to CPU meltdown thanks to dud fan) work faultlessly in
> > the RiscPC, talking to an aging video controller, and talking to
> > an I/O bus that runs at 8MHz flat out. It is basically a snail on
> > a bicycle riding through mud.
>
> > Ask if anybody or any RISC OS show near you has a Pi they can let
> > you play with. A Pi is a poor man's Beagle. And that's nothing
> > compared to the OMAP4 thingy (the name of which I forget). You.
> > Will. Be. Impressed.
>
> I *really* can't see the Pi replacing this RPC for the things I use
> it for easily or cheaply. And for the things I do use it for, I don't
> find it annoyingly slow.
>
> What do you use if for where the better speed is all important?
>
> Does anyone use a Pi except for playing with?

A colleague at work who takes his audio and video seriously has
installed one of the various Linuxes that are aimed at the streamer end
of the market on his RPi.

Because it is completely silent in operation (no nasty fans and stuff),
it's taken over from an x86 box that he used to use.

Admittedly, this is not RISC OS - but he doesn't regard it as "playing"


--
Nick Roberts tigger @ orpheusinternet.co.uk

Hanlon's Razor: Never attribute to malice that which
can be adequately explained by stupidity.

[Doug Webb]

In message <5322054...@davenoise.co.uk>

"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> Snag with me would be the cost of replacing all the peripherals since I
> assume the Pi can't use the same HDs, keyboard, CD recorder, printer etc
> as the RPC.

> And I happen to like using an old Acorn keyboard along with a cordless
> mouse - both PS2, shared with my PC via a KVM switch.

Well USB to PS2 adaptors can be had for around 2 - 3 pounds and work
ok here with Belkin KVM , Iyonix, PC, Beagle and Pi.

Printer will depend on what the interface is , if it is uSB then fine
but if not then 10 -15 pounds.

HD's then just get a simple external HD housing but you could get a
USB hard disc for around 20 pounds like I did

Finally CD writer may be an issue but external Samsung CD/DVD worked
when I tested it as a reader again �22.

So it could cost you more than just a Pi but depends I why you think
you need some of the old legacy stuff and speed wise it is no contest
and even can run legacy programs in emulated mode and will run most
Iyonix capable programmes without problems.

[spampling]

In article <51269d2e$0$9020$ba4a...@reader.news.orange.fr>,
Rick Murray <heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> * Have you ever read a man page?

Yes, quite a few.

> Did it make sense to you?

Yes, unfortunately human speak is a bit baffling.

--

Steve Pampling

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <7ae81322...@bc63.orpheusinternet.co.uk>, Nick Roberts

<tig...@orpheusinternet.co.uk> wrote:


> A colleague at work who takes his audio and video seriously has
> installed one of the various Linuxes that are aimed at the streamer end
> of the market on his RPi.

> Because it is completely silent in operation (no nasty fans and stuff),
> it's taken over from an x86 box that he used to use.

> Admittedly, this is not RISC OS - but he doesn't regard it as "playing"

That is the kind of reason I tried for a few years to get RO
developers/programmers to produce decent USB firmware, etc, to support the
driverless USB DACs with RO.

Alas, no-one had any interest. So far as I could tell, no-one realised that
many people would like a box that was small/mechanically silent/cheap for
high quality audio.

So instead, people will use Linux and if they experiment with RO wonder why
it can't support the same fairly basic task... A chance to promote RO has
become a reason for many to avoid it.

At the time some responses made clear that people have no interest in
developing this unless paid to do so at a commercial rate.

All around, something of a contrast with the situation wrt Linux. :-/

Also perhaps rather a sad contrast with the behaviour of those who created
RO and the ARM-based hardware in the first place.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

[John Rickman Iyonix]

Jim Lesurf wrote

> In article <7ae81322...@bc63.orpheusinternet.co.uk>, Nick Roberts
> <tig...@orpheusinternet.co.uk> wrote:


>> A colleague at work who takes his audio and video seriously has
>> installed one of the various Linuxes that are aimed at the streamer end
>> of the market on his RPi.

>> Because it is completely silent in operation (no nasty fans and stuff),
>> it's taken over from an x86 box that he used to use.

>> Admittedly, this is not RISC OS - but he doesn't regard it as "playing"

> That is the kind of reason I tried for a few years to get RO
> developers/programmers to produce decent USB firmware, etc, to support the
> driverless USB DACs with RO.

> Alas, no-one had any interest. So far as I could tell, no-one realised that
> many people would like a box that was small/mechanically silent/cheap for
> high quality audio.

> So instead, people will use Linux and if they experiment with RO wonder why
> it can't support the same fairly basic task... A chance to promote RO has
> become a reason for many to avoid it.

> At the time some responses made clear that people have no interest in
> developing this unless paid to do so at a commercial rate.

During Steve Revill's talk at the SouthWest show he said that someone
was working on improvements to the RISC OS USB support.

[John]

In article <08b727235...@rickman.argonet.co.uk>, John
Rickman Iyonix <ric...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

<snip>

> > At the time some responses made clear that people have
> > no interest in developing this unless paid to do so at
> > a commercial rate.

> During Steve Revill's talk at the SouthWest show he said
> that someone was working on improvements to the RISC OS
> USB support.

It's someone in the USA who signs himself DaveS on the
forums.

John

--
John
new...@blueyonder.co.uk
j dot mccartney atte blueyonder dot co dot uk

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <08b727235...@rickman.argonet.co.uk>,
John Rickman Iyonix <ric...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> During Steve Revill's talk at the SouthWest show he said that someone
> was working on improvements to the RISC OS USB support.

Considering just how long ago USB arrived...

I bought a USB board from Castle years ago at a vast cost. Complete waste
of money. The Unipod sort of works, sometimes. But I can't even use
something so basic as a wireless mouse/keyboard with it.

--
*The first rule of holes: If you are in one, stop digging!

[Chris Johnson]

In article <53232a2...@davenoise.co.uk>,

Dave Plowman (News) <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> But I can't even use something so basic as a wireless
> mouse/keyboard with it.

But then I am using a wireless mouse and keyboard on my BeagleBoard
and Raspberry Pi, and they also work on the Iyonix.

--
Chris Johnson

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <mpro.mir14l...@ypical.nospam.invalid>,
Fred Bambrough <fred@[127.0.0.1]> wrote:
> In message <53232a2...@davenoise.co.uk>

> "Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

> > In article <08b727235...@rickman.argonet.co.uk>,
> > John Rickman Iyonix <ric...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > > During Steve Revill's talk at the SouthWest show he said that
> > > someone was working on improvements to the RISC OS USB support.
> >
> > Considering just how long ago USB arrived...
> >
> > I bought a USB board from Castle years ago at a vast cost. Complete
> > waste of money. The Unipod sort of works, sometimes. But I can't even
> > use something so basic as a wireless mouse/keyboard with it.

> I have wirless Logitech mice that work with Unipod. Microsoft seems a
> no-no.

Yes, I could get a wireless mouse to work on USB, but not a Logitech
wireless keyboard and mouse. And since it has a KVM switch sharing it with
the PC, not much use. They do work on PS2, though.

--
*How come you never hear about gruntled employees? *

[Steve Fryatt]

On 24 Feb, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
<53232a2...@davenoise.co.uk>:

> In article <08b727235...@rickman.argonet.co.uk>,
> John Rickman Iyonix <ric...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > During Steve Revill's talk at the SouthWest show he said that someone
> > was working on improvements to the RISC OS USB support.
>
> Considering just how long ago USB arrived...
>
> I bought a USB board from Castle years ago at a vast cost. Complete waste
> of money. The Unipod sort of works, sometimes. But I can't even use
> something so basic as a wireless mouse/keyboard with it.

USB keyboards and mice -- even wireless ones, AFAIK -- already work very
nicely on modern systems like the Iyonix, Beagleboard, Pandaboard and RPi
(and have done so for years, where applicable). And unlike the Unipod, those
systems handle most USB mass storage that can be thrown at them without the
need to put arcane numbers into a text file, too...

--
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England Wakefield Acorn & RISC OS Show
Saturday 20 April 2013
http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/ http://www.wakefieldshow.org.uk/

[Dave Symes]

In article <53233644...@blueyonder.co.uk>,

John <new...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <08b727235...@rickman.argonet.co.uk>, John
> Rickman Iyonix <ric...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> <snip>

> > > At the time some responses made clear that people have
> > > no interest in developing this unless paid to do so at
> > > a commercial rate.

> > During Steve Revill's talk at the SouthWest show he said
> > that someone was working on improvements to the RISC OS
> > USB support.

> It's someone in the USA who signs himself DaveS on the
> forums.

> John

Just for the record that ain't me.

Dave

--

Dave Triffid

[John]

In article <53236a1...@triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes

<da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:

> > It's someone in the USA who signs himself DaveS on the
> > forums.

Oops! That should have been DavidS not DaveS.

> Just for the record that ain't me.

<Dillon>
No, no, no, it ain't meeee babe...
</Dillon>

[John Rickman Iyonix]

John wrote

> In article <53236a1...@triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes
> <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:

>>> It's someone in the USA who signs himself DaveS on the
>>> forums.

> Oops! That should have been DavidS not DaveS.

>> Just for the record that ain't me.

> <Dillon>
> No, no, no, it ain't meeee babe...
> </Dillon>

or possibly <dylan>..</dylan>

John

--
John Rickman - http://mug.riscos.org/

[Stuart]

In article <532380e0...@blueyonder.co.uk>,

John <new...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> <Dillon>
> No, no, no, it ain't meeee babe...
> </Dillon>

Dylan and a lot of cover artists.

--
Stuart Winsor

Only plain text for emails
http://www.asciiribbon.org

[John]

In article <27da88235...@rickman.argonet.co.uk>, John

Rickman Iyonix <ric...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> John wrote

> > In article <53236a1...@triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes
> > <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:

> >>> It's someone in the USA who signs himself DaveS on
> >>> the forums.

> > Oops! That should have been DavidS not DaveS.

> >> Just for the record that ain't me.

> > <Dillon> No, no, no, it ain't meeee babe... </Dillon>

> or possibly <dylan>..</dylan>

AAaaarrrrgggghhhhh! As my mother used to comment to her
friends, "It's his age, you know."

Must've been thinking of The Magic Roundabout - no, no,
that was Dylan too. Ooh, I give up. :-((

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <53233644...@blueyonder.co.uk>, John
<new...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <08b727235...@rickman.argonet.co.uk>, John Rickman
> Iyonix <ric...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> <snip>

> > > At the time some responses made clear that people have no interest
> > > in developing this unless paid to do so at a commercial rate.

> > During Steve Revill's talk at the SouthWest show he said that someone
> > was working on improvements to the RISC OS USB support.

> It's someone in the USA who signs himself DaveS on the forums.

If someone gets a USB Audio Class 1 and/or 2 system to me that runs on RO
boxes I'll check it out and report on it. As things stand I'm about to buy
an ArminiX anyway. And if it works on a PiRo I'd get one of those as well
to test.

If something like that works OK I can then probably justify writing about
it in an audio magazine. As things stand I'd be embarassed to mention RO.

Just sent in a feature article on using Linux for serious audio. All being
well, that should be published OK (subject to the usual proviso that the
Editor is Happy). Fingers crossed. I could easily do something on RO and
hifi **if** I actually had something positive to write about!

So if 'DavidS' or whoever are interested, I'd look forwards to their email.

But these days about the minimum entry point is asynch/iso USB Audio class
1 support for up to 96k/24bit stereo. People are starting to expect class
2, 192k/24 - and even 384k or DSD-over-LPCM is starting to emerge for the
expensive end of the market.

[Ste (news)]

In article <5323981...@audiomisc.co.uk>,

Jim Lesurf <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
> So if 'DavidS' or whoever are interested, I'd look forwards to their email.

I did direct him to contact you when he was asking about working on our
bounty. I'll try again...

Ta,

Steve

--
Steve Revill @ Home
Note: All opinions expressed herein are my own.

[Graham Thurlwell]

On the 21 Feb 2013, Rick Murray <heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:

<snip>

> http://xkcd.com/1168/

Uhm, tar --h any good? <runs to get Linux command reference book from
other room>.

> * Hey, I know, don't licence software to a person, how about it gets
> licenced to a specific computer - so if you splash a wad on Office for
> your PC, when you upgrade your PC, you'll need to buy^Wrelicence Office
> all over again!

That's just asking for someone to actually test EULA's in court
(they're probably only enforceable if the entirety of the contract is
presented before payment has been tendered).


--
Jades' First Encounters Site - http://www.jades.org/ffe.htm
The best Frontier: First Encounters site on the Web.

nos...@jades.org /is/ a real email address!

[John]

I'm re-posting this as it doesn't appear to have arrived on
my machine. If anyone else has seen it before, please let
me know.


In article <27da88235...@rickman.argonet.co.uk>, John

Rickman Iyonix <ric...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> John wrote

> > In article <53236a1...@triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes
> > <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:

> >>> It's someone in the USA who signs himself DaveS on
> >>> the forums.

> > Oops! That should have been DavidS not DaveS.

> >> Just for the record that ain't me.

> > <Dillon> No, no, no, it ain't meeee babe... </Dillon>

> or possibly <dylan>..</dylan>

AAaaarrrrgggghhhhh! As my mother used to comment to her
friends, "It's his age, you know."

Must've been thinking of The Magic Roundabout - no, no,

that was Dylan too. I give up. :-((

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <53241dc...@revi11.plus.com>,

Ste (news) <st...@revi11.plus.com> wrote:
> In article <5323981...@audiomisc.co.uk>,
> Jim Lesurf <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
> > So if 'DavidS' or whoever are interested, I'd look forwards to their email.

> I did direct him to contact you when he was asking about working on our
> bounty. I'll try again...

Thanks. :-)

[John Williams (News)]

In article <mpro.miw2c9...@ypical.nospam.invalid>,

Fred Bambrough <fred@[127.0.0.1]> wrote:

> Deja vu time

all over again!

[John]

In article <5324a9c7...@tiscali.co.uk>,

John Williams (News) <UCE...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <mpro.miw2c9...@ypical.nospam.invalid>,
> Fred Bambrough <fred@[127.0.0.1]> wrote:

> > Deja vu time

> all over again!

Encore une fois!

[Rick Murray]

On 22/02/2013 11:38, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> What do you use if for where the better speed is all important?

Development on a more modern ARM system (no matter how some may protest,
26 bit is *history* and hasn't been a feature of ARMs for something like
a decade now).

It talks to standard USB devices (keyboard, mouse, storage) so getting a
system up and running is no more complicated than unplugging the
required bits from a PC. ;-)

Dead easy to set up. Imaging an SD card takes about six minutes on my
hardware. Pop card into Pi, power up.

Did I mention I can run it off a USB port on the netbook? Thing is even
happy to run off a mobile phone charger. And the "Pi Lite" is even more
frugal.

Has the option to switch to Linux - just change SD and power up. Same
hardware.

Proper speed networking. When you're used to a 100mbit network, you will
wonder how you put up with 10mbit for so long. ;-)

The only sticking point is the display output. I would need a modern
monitor or TV with digital input. This is because I have a telly older
than I am (I watch most of my stuff on the netbook with a capture card).
But, as naff as it looks, the Pi can output composite video (and S-video
for Beagle). For those with more modern setups, Bluray players and such,
it'll just plug in.


RISC OS - free.
Peripherals - free if you have them around. Else budget ~20 for a basic
keyboard/mouse combo; or twice that if you want something that is nice
to type on.
Display device - you probably have something it'll plug in to...
PSU - mobe charger will probably be enough.

Pi itself - the same price as a box of DVD-Rs.

> Does anyone use a Pi except for playing with?

Well, there is a lot of that too. But what's the point if you don't
intend to play? ;-)


In time, I plan to get a second Pi to fit alongside my Livebox; to be
powered off its USB port, hooked to its network port, and run WebJames
etc. If my box is fried by (another) lightning blast, it won't be the
end of the world. Upsetting, sure. Tragedy? Not so much. Not like
cooking a computer costing half a month's wages!

Oh, and did I mention it is insanely nippy?

You probably think you don't care much for speed. I was that way when I
compiled programs on an A3000. Then I moved to an A5000 and couldn't
imagine how I tolerated the lethargy of the ARM2 system. Then I moved to
a RiscPC and couldn't believe how slow the A5000 is. Then I moved to
Pi/Beagle (for most use the ~300MHz difference isn't obvious) and it's
/so/ /damned/ /fast/ I have gotten into the habit of debugging by
tweak-compile-tweak-compile. Loading OvationPro. Loading Zap. Loading
NetSurf. Stuff is *just* *there*. I mean, I knew RISC OS was quick but
experiencing it... that's a whole different thing.


Best wishes,

Rick.

[Rick Murray]

On 24/02/2013 14:11, Jim Lesurf wrote:

> A chance to promote RO has become a reason for many to avoid it.

Ditto our inability to handle XviD at anything over 320x240 (never mind
H.264 etc).

> All around, something of a contrast with the situation wrt Linux. :-/

Indeed; but there is a huge development community for Linux and many of
the projects are open source encouraging others to pitch in. One could
say it grew from the ground up having that mentality.

RISC OS, on the other hand, has not seen that level of development
(there is no real technical reason why we can't have 720p videos playing
under RISC OS if the hardware can do it). Why not? Lack of development
meaning lack of support meaning lack of... you get the idea.


Oh, and you might want to read up on Unity -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_%28user_interface%29 - it was
developed by a company. Even though for you it is free, somebody paid
developers to put it together. Other tech companies allow employees to
dabble in spare time (kudos for the company, or better software for
everybody). You'll probably find the number of developers of Linux who
are doing the core work _entirely_ _for_ _free_ is less than it might
seem. We've gotten a long way through altruism and people donating time
and skills, but the trade-off is that they work on the things that they
feel need to be worked on. If you offered a bounty and nobody showed
interest, then the options are to either give up, try again, or dig up
some datasheets and consider having a go yourself...


Best wishes,

Rick.

[Rick Murray]

On 24/02/2013 20:22, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> I bought a USB board from Castle years ago at a vast cost. Complete waste
> of money. The Unipod sort of works, sometimes. But I can't even use
> something so basic as a wireless mouse/keyboard with it.

I should point out that the USB handling on the older cards [Simtec?]
and the RISC OS 5 method with the SoC boards is *completely* different.
They are only related insomuch as they are USB.


It'd be possible to run the newer stack under the IOMD version of RISC
OS 5 with Unipods and the like, *IF* somebody writes a driver for that
specific hardware. Any takers? Don't all raise your hands at once...


Best wishes,

Rick.

[John Williams (News)]

In article <513b8fd8$0$1391$ba4a...@reader.news.orange.fr>,

Rick Murray <heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> Did I mention I can run it off a USB port on the netbook? Thing is even
> happy to run off a mobile phone charger. And the "Pi Lite" is even more
> frugal.

> Has the option to switch to Linux - just change SD and power up. Same
> hardware.

Did I mention that my RISC OS and Linux RPis (plural) run off a 10 port
mains-powered USB hub selected by a 2-way USB-selector switch - which also
auto-selects the HDMI input between 2 Pis (plural)?

Is this a fault with my or English grammar?

Best wishes,

[David H Wild]

In article <513b8fd8$0$1391$ba4a...@reader.news.orange.fr>,
Rick Murray <heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> The only sticking point is the display output. I would need a modern
> monitor or TV with digital input. This is because I have a telly older
> than I am (I watch most of my stuff on the netbook with a capture card).
> But, as naff as it looks, the Pi can output composite video (and S-video
> for Beagle). For those with more modern setups, Bluray players and such,
> it'll just plug in.

If you do get another TV check that it will accept input from a computer. I
bought a TV with "2 HDMI ports" only to find that it was expecting a DVD,
or BluRay at the other end. I did get my money back and bought a monitor
which works beautifully.

--
David Wild using RISC OS on broadband
www.davidhwild.me.uk

[Theo Markettos]

Rick Murray <heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> I should point out that the USB handling on the older cards [Simtec?]
> and the RISC OS 5 method with the SoC boards is *completely* different.
> They are only related insomuch as they are USB.

I'm told that even the Castle podule stack is quite different from the RISC
OS 5 stack...

> It'd be possible to run the newer stack under the IOMD version of RISC
> OS 5 with Unipods and the like, *IF* somebody writes a driver for that
> specific hardware. Any takers? Don't all raise your hands at once...

There is indeed a partial driver for the chip on the Simtec USB/Unipod in
the RISC OS 5 tree.

Theo

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <513b951f$0$1213$ba4a...@reader.news.orange.fr>, Rick Murray

<heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 24/02/2013 14:11, Jim Lesurf wrote:

> > A chance to promote RO has become a reason for many to avoid it.

> Ditto our inability to handle XviD at anything over 320x240 (never mind
> H.264 etc).


> > All around, something of a contrast with the situation wrt Linux. :-/

> Indeed; but there is a huge development community for Linux and many of
> the projects are open source encouraging others to pitch in. One could
> say it grew from the ground up having that mentality.

I agree. I'd just like to see something similar continue to grow with RO.

Alas, when I tried to get people interested in USB Audio for RO the biggest
reaction was from those saying it would need to be paid for on a commercial
level before anyone would do it. That's the contrast.

> RISC OS, on the other hand, has not seen that level of development
> (there is no real technical reason why we can't have 720p videos playing
> under RISC OS if the hardware can do it). Why not? Lack of development
> meaning lack of support meaning lack of... you get the idea.

Oh yes, indeed I do. Won't change until/unless those with the skill decide
to change it.

Slainte,

[Dave Higton]

In message <532a306...@audiomisc.co.uk>

Jim Lesurf <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:

>Alas, when I tried to get people interested in USB Audio for RO the biggest
>reaction was from those saying it would need to be paid for on a commercial
>level before anyone would do it.

The trouble I had was that I can't understand how the RISC OS 5 USB
stack works. The code is badly written from the documentation POV,
i.e. there aren't any block header comments and not enough in the
code, which means it's a considerable job just to get any overall
understanding of how it works.

Dave

[Dave Higton]

In message <CID*dl...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>

Theo Markettos <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

> Rick Murray <heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > I should point out that the USB handling on the older cards [Simtec?]
> > and the RISC OS 5 method with the SoC boards is *completely* different.
> > They are only related insomuch as they are USB.
>
> I'm told that even the Castle podule stack is quite different from the RISC
> OS 5 stack...

I can confirm your satement.

Dave

[Rick Murray]

On 09/03/2013 21:03, John Williams (News) wrote:

>> Has the option to switch to Linux - just change SD and power up. Same
>> hardware.

> Did I mention that my RISC OS and Linux RPis (plural) run off a 10 port
> mains-powered USB hub selected by a 2-way USB-selector switch - which also
> auto-selects the HDMI input between 2 Pis (plural)?
>
> Is this a fault with my or English grammar?

Neither. The fault here is if I/we are trying to convince somebody of
why things are better/nicer with newer hardware, of mentioning
*multiples* (plural). Let's keep it simple (singular), eh?


Best wishes,

Rick.

[Theo Markettos]

Jim Lesurf <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
> Alas, when I tried to get people interested in USB Audio for RO the biggest
> reaction was from those saying it would need to be paid for on a commercial
> level before anyone would do it. That's the contrast.

Speaking personally, I think the trouble is there are too many competing
demands on developers' time. Sorting out the filesystem, the USB stack
(which is a prequisite to USB audio) and wireless drivers are things
quite a lot of people want.

I think the key is to get the developer motivations right. People can be
motivated by sticking a big pile of cash under their nose, but that's
because it can replace their day job (especially for folks who work
part-time, on contract, self-employed, etc it's easier to fit in a few-weeks
job). And by a 'pile of cash' I mean sufficient to pay the bills at the end
of the month, not to buy a few beers. That's not to say they don't care,
but they just don't have the time/energy outside of work time to do it.

The alternative is to find someone willing to spend their spare time on it.
It that case the motivations are a) helping people out, b) fixing something
that annoys you personally, c) learning and possibly d) fame (not much of
that about in the RISC OS market)/reputation/CV points. Something like
wireless probably ticks boxes a) and b) to a much greater extent than audio,
simply because more people are interested in connecting to the internet than
professional audio.

In the Linux world there are orders of magnitude more developers, so more
people interested in any particular field, and commercial interest too
(manufacturers want Linux to work on their hardware).

So to get developers interested in your particular field, I'd suggest
working on the user side, not the developer side. Get people together who
are interested in what you are. Explore and engage with what we have at the
moment. Motivate people to chip away are what can't be done right now.
Even if you're not a good programmer, producing something helps because it
makes it easier for someone skilled to improve or build upon, or at the very
least points out the flaws in the existing. Or it might teach you enough to
have a go next time. It's much easier to put another brick in the wall
than it is to start with the foundations.

And don't take 'no' for an answer, just maybe as a 'not yet' :)

Theo

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <DID*Ly...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Theo Markettos

<theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Jim Lesurf <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
> > Alas, when I tried to get people interested in USB Audio for RO the
> > biggest reaction was from those saying it would need to be paid for on
> > a commercial level before anyone would do it. That's the contrast.

> Speaking personally, I think the trouble is there are too many competing
> demands on developers' time. Sorting out the filesystem, the USB stack
> (which is a prequisite to USB audio) and wireless drivers are things
> quite a lot of people want.

I presume the situation isn't helped by having what seems like more than
one 'stack' around, etc...

> I think the key is to get the developer motivations right. People can
> be motivated by sticking a big pile of cash under their nose, but that's
> because it can replace their day job (especially for folks who work
> part-time, on contract, self-employed, etc it's easier to fit in a
> few-weeks job). And by a 'pile of cash' I mean sufficient to pay the
> bills at the end of the month, not to buy a few beers. That's not to
> say they don't care, but they just don't have the time/energy outside of
> work time to do it.

I accept that and quite understand it. But do contrast it with the Linux
situation. Yes, people like Red Hat, Canonical, etc, do inject a lot of
money and paid-time work. But there are also a large number of enthusiasts
who make real contributions out of interest, etc.

> The alternative is to find someone willing to spend their spare time on
> it. It that case the motivations are a) helping people out, b) fixing
> something that annoys you personally, c) learning and possibly d) fame
> (not much of that about in the RISC OS market)/reputation/CV points.
> Something like wireless probably ticks boxes a) and b) to a much greater
> extent than audio, simply because more people are interested in
> connecting to the internet than professional audio.

The quibble I'd make is with your use of the term "professional audio" and
the assumptions that gives to people

High quality audio playback in the home isn't a "professional audio" task.
It is something many thousands of people have come to take for granted.

And one of the off-putting features users in this area face is the wish to
have a small, compact, easy-to-use and *mechanically silent* device to play
the audio as they *they* choose rather than being tied into or limited by
what someone else (Apple, etc) decided you can do - and can't!

This *is* changing. But as things stand it is doing so by-passing RO. Thus
meaning one area which leaves RO looking lame and old-fashioned to many
potential users. When we reach a point where playing high res and
multichannel audio is 'normal' for computers, what will a RO system look
like if it is limited, say, to analogue outputs only, stereo, 48k only, and
plays other formats (if at all) with gross distortions? No HDMI or optical
or USB audio.

It will keep RO systems in the "Toy" category I fear.

> In the Linux world there are orders of magnitude more developers, so
> more people interested in any particular field, and commercial interest
> too (manufacturers want Linux to work on their hardware).

> So to get developers interested in your particular field, I'd suggest
> working on the user side, not the developer side. Get people together
> who are interested in what you are.

Which faces two real stumbling blocks.

Many people simply don't know what they don't have. If someone hasn't heard
really good audio they may have no concern out of lack of experience...
until they get it from elsewhere - be that Linux, or whatever. At which
point they go to that. Lost to RO.

The pool of existing RO users is small. It isn't the pool of people who
might like RO *if* they found it could play audio well.

> Explore and engage with what we
> have at the moment. Motivate people to chip away are what can't be done
> right now. Even if you're not a good programmer, producing something
> helps because it makes it easier for someone skilled to improve or build
> upon, or at the very least points out the flaws in the existing. Or it
> might teach you enough to have a go next time. It's much easier to put
> another brick in the wall than it is to start with the foundations.

> And don't take 'no' for an answer, just maybe as a 'not yet' :)

Agreed and understood. My personal problem here is that I can write things
at a more 'user program' level. But am totally out of my depth when it
comes to things closer to the real hardware layer like a USB stack, etc. So
I can do things like write audio processing progs, and even one like
!IyoScope that lets someone use the audio input of an Iyonix as an audio
scope and spectrum/THD analyser.

I'd hope to do similar for the ARMiniX generation having got one. But the
above is an example of my problem. !IyoScope relies on the AudioIn
module... As thinks stand I have no idea how to get a version of that
working on an ARMiniX. Even given the sources, no idea how to adapt it. So
I'd be no use in terms of working on USB. I wish it were otherwise, just
like I wish I was able to still climb around on top of volcanos, etc. :-)

With Linux I can get somewhere with ALSA and things like the HID libraries.
The main problem there is understanding documentation and extending my
limited knowledge of programming. But these then rely on someone else
having done things like already added USB Audio transfer to the kernel pot.
Beyond me.

FWIW none of this crimps my ability to play audio as I choose. I just use
Linux. As do others. In use, happy enough with that. The problem from my
POV is seeing RO miss an excellent chance to shine and draw in many new
users. Who will take no interest as things stand. So when keen audio
'audiophiles' discuss using computers I tell them about Linux, not RO.

All being well, an article I've written about basing good home audio on
Linux will appear sometime in an audio mag. And I may do something similar
elsewhere. What I can do is write articles and get them into 'technical
hobby' mags. But I can't really even mention RO as I'd have - at present -
nothing to say beyond. "Isn't much good for audio, so ignore it." In
effect, "Natty but useless for audio, etc." So a chance to draw in people
becomes a silence because what I'd have to say would put them off! :-/

[druck]

On 11 Mar 2013 Jim Lesurf <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <DID*Ly...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, Theo Markettos
> <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> Speaking personally, I think the trouble is there are too many competing
>> demands on developers' time. Sorting out the filesystem, the USB stack
>> (which is a prequisite to USB audio) and wireless drivers are things
>> quite a lot of people want.

> I presume the situation isn't helped by having what seems like more than
> one 'stack' around, etc...

No, there is only one stack and that is the one in RO5, used in the
Iyonix, and all the new development boards with USB hardware, that is
going to be developed further

The Castle and Simtec USB1 podule cards are of no practical use apart
from reading and writing memory stacks. There is no way any Risc PC
podule can keep up with USB2, which is the minimum for USB audio.

---druck

--
The ARM Club Free Software - http://www.armclub.org.uk/free/
32 bit Conversions Page - http://www.armclub.org.uk/32bit/

[heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk]

First up, please excuse me if this message looks weird or badly
formatted. I am posting from Google Groups (old layout, it's faster)
because OrangeFrance's NNTP server is a dodo. Again. :-/

On Mar 11, 3:27 pm, Jim Lesurf <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:

> I presume the situation isn't helped by having what seems like more than
> one 'stack' around, etc...

I don't imagine that would be a big problem, for there's one stack
unlikely to be further developed for a system unlikely to be further
developed... and there's the other one. ;-)

Though, if you follow the ROOL forums, I've had an interesting time
getting USBMIDI working. Both the Beagle and the Pi play perfectly, my
Maestro hack is testament to that.

Reading in MIDI data, on the other hand, works without a problem (zero
byte stuffing aside) on the Pi, but consistantly fails on the Beagle.

Looking at the source for some guidance as to what may be different, I
gave up. Looks like completely different base source to me!

It remains to be seen how compatible DavidS's replacement will be.


This isn't to say audio devices will run into the same problems, I
just think for some stuff a lower level than DeviceFS might be better.

> I accept that and quite understand it. But do contrast it with the Linux
> situation. Yes, people like Red Hat, Canonical, etc, do inject a lot of
> money and paid-time work. But there are also a large number of enthusiasts
> who make real contributions out of interest, etc.

Yes, there are. Now if we pick a figure out of the air and say for
every 250 users we have one person willing to donate their time; you
can see how there would be dozens and hundreds for Linux (big
userbase, wide deployment) and the few we have for RISC OS. The ROOL
guys, those who worked on NetSurf, the various Unixy ports of things.
The people who help out along the way with utils, tools, or maybe just
suggestions. Statistically we aren't short of people, it just looks
that way because we have fewer people overall.
So you pretty much can't compare RISC OS and Linux. It's like
comparing processor instructions, you can make lots of charts and
powerpoint slides, but at the end of the day they're just different
things.

I'd like RISC OS to have the deployment and support that is offered to
Linux. I'd also like to win the lottery...

> The quibble I'd make is with your use of the term "professional audio" and
> the assumptions that gives to people

[...]

> High quality audio playback in the home isn't a "professional audio" task.
> It is something many thousands of people have come to take for granted.

I don't want to cause you to cry man-tears here, but I suspect the
*majority* of people are waking up to the fact that 128kbit MP3 is
crap.
For my video recordings, I use 128kbit AAC+ (the max the firmware
offers, sounds a lot richer than 128kbit MP3), for my own audio I use
256kbit; or 160kbit for stuff transcoded from YouTube/Youku.
My audio appears on the end of (analogue) phono sockets, or a 3.5mm
headphone jack.

Given the vast range of mobile phones, PDAs, tablets, etc and the less
impressive range of codecs supported out of the box, I would not
imagine people's ideas of audio quite match up to yours. In fact, the
stuff most people listen to is quite possibly painful for you - which
might explain why "pop" sounds markedly different to the way it did
when I was young. Oh, I'm not being elitist here, I have stuff like
Deacon Blue, Erasure, The Cure, Tears for Fears, etc etc in my
playlist and you can spot an '80s track a mile off. It is quieter and
it sounds "richer". Hard to describe, maybe something lost in analogue
recording tech is ultimately something gained?

> And one of the off-putting features users in this area face is the wish to
> have a small, compact, easy-to-use and *mechanically silent* device to play
> the audio as they *they* choose rather than being tied into or limited by
> what someone else (Apple, etc) decided you can do - and can't!

With our choice of crappy codecs and piles of MP3s, we can do exactly
this with no add-on hardware. Load OS, load MP3 player, point it to
playlist, plug speakers into the headphone jack. That's pretty much
what the *domestic* market is asking for - look to mobiles/tablets/
webradios to see the audio output is not an item of great importance
despite a lot of use of them as audio players.

> But as things stand it is doing so by-passing RO.

Ditto a number of things. Modern script/HTML5 support. Video codecs.
Proper support for Unicode. Shall I go on?

> Thus meaning one area which leaves RO looking lame and old-fashioned to many
> potential users.

...but, I'd wager, possibly not for its (lack of) audio support, in
the eyes of many.

> what will a RO system look like if it is limited, say, to analogue outputs
> only, stereo, 48k only,

Just like my eeePC.

You might be able to get a plug-in USB thingy for 5.1 audio. But that
will require *manufacturer* *provided* drivers to get it to work. As
it is I have a "Realtek HD audio" device inside, and it is hit and
miss as to whether or not it is "seen" by some software.

> No HDMI or optical or USB audio.

HDMI would be chip specific. For starters, does HDMI audio on the
Beagle/Pi work under Linux? If so, is there sufficient documentation
to do it under RISC OS (OMAP3, ought to be; Pi, not so sure). Once you
have the hardware capable and the spec to code to, you just need to
find somebody willing to do it - if not yourself, that is.

Optical - I don't think this is relevant. Is there anything RISC OS
runs on that has an optical audio output?

USB - copy'n'paste what I said for HDMI except the complication of the
fact that I don't think USB audio runs in realtime like the RISC OS
sound system, so it may need more work.


In programming, there is a WORLD of difference between:
"We need this!"
and:
"Here's the specs, datasheets, and hardware. Is anybody willing to
take on this?"

> It will keep RO systems in the "Toy" category I fear.

I think of RO more as an embedded platform. And yes, you might say
"perfect for an embedded media player" in which case I would counter
with "cheap, cute front end UI, and phono sockets would probably be
enough to please the masses". Maybe a self-switching headphone jack on
the front for private listening.

> Many people simply don't know what they don't have.

Which is, perhaps, why we put up with rubbish.

> If someone hasn't heard really good audio they may have no concern out
> of lack of experience...

I have heard supposedly good audio. I use MP3s and listen with €30
headphones (proper headphones, not those ear-buds, unless I'm
outside). Why? The proper audio was the gold-plated special. I was
supposed to swoon when he mentioned the name of the manufacturer. I
was supposed to be entranced with a thingummy (eq box?) that had more
buttons and indicators than the Shuttle. Perhaps more than every
Shuttle ever added together.

From this, I took home three things:

1. Holy Hell that cost a bomb. I simply cannot justify dropping a
grand on a flippin' SPEAKER. Even after winning the lottery, I
wouldn't be able to justify those sorts of prices for something to
install into a living room. A theatre, perhaps. A living room? No.

2. It didn't distort when the sound was cranked up enough to feel like
a physical assault. I could actually feel the bass kicking me in the
gut. But it didn't distort.
It didn't impress much either. What is it with cranking the thing up
for a demonstration? It is like teenagers in the '80s that spent
endless hours outside revving their Ford Cortinas, because a revving
engine gives you such a hardon. Well, that's about the only thing I
can think to justify revving for hours and hours. Ditto blasting my
ears with rock. A much better test would have been an orchestral piece
that crosses the octaves to see how well fidelity is handled - bass
and treble together.

3. What a twat. For both of the above reasons.

So, I stick with audio stuff I can afford and I don't lose sleep if it
isn't absolutely perfect. I'm far more bothered by the massive number
of (to me) highly visible artefacts in HD pictures than with the
bitrate of my sound. Just so long as it is better than 128kbit!

> The pool of existing RO users is small.

...which is why you are finding difficulty in getting this done.

> But am totally out of my depth when it comes to things closer to the
> real hardware layer like a USB stack, etc.

I think many are. There are few people that understand the magic
incantations that gets USB working. Because it isn't just USB you are
talking about. It is the RISC OS sound system, how RISC OS deals with
interrupts, USB, and a ton of glue to get it all talking. This is, of
course, assuming that your request is even possible without a complete
rewrite of how audio is handled by RISC OS.

> module... As thinks stand I have no idea how to get a version of that
> working on an ARMiniX. Even given the sources, no idea how to adapt it. So

ARMini - that's basically a Beagle, right? IIRC the audio is handled
by the "helper" chip, the TPS65950 [TRM: http://www.ti.com/lit/ug/swcu050g/swcu050g.pdf
] Audio input is hooked to AuxL/AuxR. Good luck, it looks kinda
complicated to set up. I'd imagine it'll interrupt every so often so
you just read data as requested.
Take a look at the audio output to see how to address/talk to the IC.

> just like I wish I was able to still climb around on top of volcanos, etc. :-)

*Still*?!

> With Linux I can get somewhere with ALSA and things like the HID libraries.

Where the hard work has already been done.

> So a chance to draw in people becomes a silence because
> what I'd have to say would put them off!  :-/

Makes sense, if they're looking for something RISC OS doesn't do.

Maybe, someday...


Best wishes,

Rick.

[Stuart]

In article
<475dfdf9-cbed-4cd9...@i5g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>,

<heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> A much better test would have been an orchestral piece
> that crosses the octaves to see how well fidelity is handled - bass
> and treble together.

Or a piano.

The trouble is few people actually know what one really sounds like.

Stand next to one, listen to it, let the sound fully overwhelm you then go
away and cry because you cannot reproduce what you have just experienced.

I had singing lessons for two or three years. My singing teacher had a
baby-grand in her front room, she played, I sang. Wonderful, everyone
should take singing lessons.

There's a nice grand piano in church and I've stood beside that and sung
and played (acoustic guitar) too.

Regretably, in church, an electronic keyboard seems to be the instrument
of choice, to a large extent these days, (Yamaha) and it sounds no-where
near as good

[heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk]

On Mar 12, 12:01 am, Stuart <Spam...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> Or a piano.

Indeed, an instrument with an impressive range of notes and
"textures". Can't think of a better word, but it's the word that comes
to mind when twenty people playing the same thing will have twenty
different sounds; not the same thing twenty times.

> Stand next to one, listen to it, let the sound fully overwhelm you then go
> away and cry because you cannot reproduce what you have just experienced.

The main thing, that you have to listen carefully for, are the
harmonics between the strings when the sustain pedal is active.
Hitting a note, particularly those left of middle C, will cause the
entire frame to vibrate just enough to cause sympathetic vibrations in
other strings. It is this that gives a piano its pleasing richness,
and each design of piano is different. The effect is more pronounced
in grands, less so in uprights.

I don't think we'll see a day when a synthesiser is capable of
emulating this facet of the piano.

> Wonderful, everyone should take singing lessons.

You haven't heard me sing...

Sometimes I attempted to sing along with Japanese songs while on night
shift at work, well, at least the bits I could remember, but I
wouldn't do it with an audience.
As for my singing, the only thing I would say is I could perhaps do
better than Guns'n'Roses' "November Rain". Oh, and I know I could do
better than Emile Sandé's "Read All About It".
These, of course, are not compliments to the performers concerned.

> Regretably, in church, an electronic keyboard seems to be the instrument
> of choice,

Smaller, portable, and battery powered. Your average child probably
learned their music on such an instrument and might be a little
flustered with the organ. Not to mention the churches and organs I've
seen, they all had their quirks and temperaments, which is why a new
organist just doesn't sound as good - the guy just won't know the
strange little rituals required.

> to a large extent these days, (Yamaha) and it sounds no-where near as good

Just bought myself a PSR E-333 (Yamaha). My previous "keyboard" had
mini keys and binary sound (on or off) with sustain as an on/off
option, and it used an FM wavesynth so none of the instruments sounded
any better than an approximation.

The E-333 offers touch sensitive keys and option of sustain pedal (I
haven't bought one yet), proper sized keys too. This alone makes the
instrument a hell of a lot more expressive. The piano is much more
piano *like* but it isn't a piano.
As a bonus, it has flash for .mid files and a built-in 16 channel
synthesiser.

I plan to use this both to attempt to learn piano (I last "dabbled"
for half an hour a week in school music lessons, like a quarter
century (eeek!) ago) and also for composing. I have all sorts of ideas
in my head, will I be able to make them real? Hmm...

Maybe in the future when I can play, then I can consider a real piano
(probably an upright, others are out of my budget). But this will
likely be so far in the future I'll sit at the piano with my zimmer
frame beside me, and have to stop every twentieth bar to push my teeth
back in. ;-)


Best wishes,

Rick.

[Harriet Bazley]

On 11 Mar 2013 as I do recall,

Stuart wrote:

> In article
> <475dfdf9-cbed-4cd9...@i5g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>,
> <heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > A much better test would have been an orchestral piece
> > that crosses the octaves to see how well fidelity is handled - bass
> > and treble together.
>
> Or a piano.
>

My father always used to swear by piano recordings to test the quality
of audio equipment.... ("used to" as in "hasn't bought any for at least
ten years"!)

--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

Some people cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go.

[Stuart]

In article
<0aa34d6a-e512-40ec...@z4g2000vbz.googlegroups.com>,

<heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> You haven't heard me sing...

That's why people should have proper lessons, including most people who
believe they /can/ sing.

[Chris Evans]

In article <475dfdf9-cbed-4cd9...@i5g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>,

<URL:mailto:heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> First up, please excuse me if this message looks weird or badly
> formatted. I am posting from Google Groups (old layout, it's faster)
> because OrangeFrance's NNTP server is a dodo. Again. :-/
>
>
>
> On Mar 11, 3:27�pm, Jim Lesurf <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > I presume the situation isn't helped by having what seems like more than
> > one 'stack' around, etc...
>
> I don't imagine that would be a big problem, for there's one stack
> unlikely to be further developed for a system unlikely to be further
> developed... and there's the other one. ;-)

Three RISC OS USB Stacks actually!

Castle USB Podule: Suitable for use with Printers and some keyboards, mice
and certain epson scanners. No longer being developed.

Simtec USB Podule/Unipod/A9home: suitable for as above plus USB mass storage
up to 2GB FAT format (larger? on A9home version), Filecore format USB mass
storage up to 250MB? and most of Dave Higton's USB toys! No longer being
developed.

RISC OS 5s USB: Suitable for all of the above plus FAT format up to 1GB? and
probably more. Also faster speed!

Please correct me if I've missed something.


Chris Evans

--
CJE Micro's / 4D 'RISC OS Specialists'
Telephone: 01903 523222 Fax: 01903 523679
ch...@cjemicros.co.uk http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/
78 Brighton Road, Worthing, West Sussex, BN11 2EN
The most beautiful thing anyone can wear, is a smile!

[Chris Evans]

In article <532af7d4...@argonet.co.uk>, Stuart

<URL:mailto:Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article
> <475dfdf9-cbed-4cd9...@i5g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>,
> <heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > A much better test would have been an orchestral piece
> > that crosses the octaves to see how well fidelity is handled - bass
> > and treble together.
>
> Or a piano.
>
> The trouble is few people actually know what one really sounds like.
>
> Stand next to one, listen to it, let the sound fully overwhelm you then go
> away and cry because you cannot reproduce what you have just experienced.

Yes, live acoustic music is sublime compared to other music.

> I had singing lessons for two or three years. My singing teacher had a
> baby-grand in her front room, she played, I sang. Wonderful, everyone
> should take singing lessons.

When I have the time and the money I'd love to.

[Jim Lesurf]

In article
<475dfdf9-cbed-4cd9...@i5g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>,
<heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On Mar 11, 3:27 pm, Jim Lesurf <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:


> It remains to be seen how compatible DavidS's replacement will be.

I've still heard nothing from him or know who he is, ot what exactly he may
be doing. So I'm unable to make any comment. :-/

> > I accept that and quite understand it. But do contrast it with the
> > Linux situation. Yes, people like Red Hat, Canonical, etc, do inject a
> > lot of money and paid-time work. But there are also a large number of
> > enthusiasts who make real contributions out of interest, etc.

>

> Statistically we aren't short of people, it just looks that way because
> we have fewer people overall.

I agree. And I can see that those engaged are showing real willingness and
ability.

But the bottom line is that in some areas we will make no progress until
someone does the key work. I wish I was able to do so, but it is clearly
beyond my skills. :-/

> > High quality audio playback in the home isn't a "professional audio"
> > task. It is something many thousands of people have come to take for
> > granted.

> I don't want to cause you to cry man-tears here, but I suspect the
> *majority* of people are waking up to the fact that 128kbit MP3 is crap.

I agree that many are, and will, do so. If for no other reason in some
cases than companies and fashion making them think so. :-)

But the end-point of moving though better lossy codecs and higher rates for
such compressed files is to reach LPCM and Flac (or equivalent loss free)
formats, and higher sample rates, etc.

The point here is that mp3, etc, were devised for an era when storage and
bandwidth limits made things like the complete Britten Peter Grimes opera
as 96k/24bit flac totally impractical. But now you can download such
things, and they sell inceasingly well. Albeit to a minority now. But it is
clearly spreading to other areas/markets.

> Given the vast range of mobile phones, PDAs, tablets, etc and the less
> impressive range of codecs supported out of the box, I would not imagine
> people's ideas of audio quite match up to yours. In fact, the stuff most
> people listen to is quite possibly painful for you - which might explain
> why "pop" sounds markedly different to the way it did when I was young.

One of the main reasons I've lost interest in much 'pop' is the combination
of insane level-compression and clipping that is routinely applied by
'experts' who destroy the result. Alas this even applies to my 'old
fashioned' taste as re-issues are often buggered in the same ways. :-/

> > Thus meaning one area which leaves RO looking lame and old-fashioned
> > to many potential users.

> ...but, I'd wager, possibly not for its (lack of) audio support, in the
> eyes of many.

I'd disagree. But the problem tends to sit in the category of "You're the
tenth person I've told, there's no call for it." :-)

> > what will a RO system look like if it is limited, say, to analogue
> > outputs only, stereo, 48k only,

> Just like my eeePC.

> You might be able to get a plug-in USB thingy for 5.1 audio. But that
> will require *manufacturer* *provided* drivers to get it to work.

Well the point of the USB DACs I've been talking about is that they do
*not* require any driver. Work out-of-the box with Linux, etc. In fact they
work *better* with Linux as the Linux system avoids some of the
presumptions that Windows and Mac OS/software then to impose.

> In programming, there is a WORLD of difference between: "We need this!"
> and: "Here's the specs, datasheets, and hardware. Is anybody willing to
> take on this?"

For USB Audio classes 1 and 2 to use the same USB DACs I refer to above, I
assume the info and examples are all available from Linux. The main 'data'
required beyond that is to hook it into RO and the modern hardware like the
PandaBoards, etc.

> > It will keep RO systems in the "Toy" category I fear.

> I think of RO more as an embedded platform. And yes, you might say
> "perfect for an embedded media player" in which case I would counter
> with "cheap, cute front end UI, and phono sockets would probably be
> enough to please the masses". Maybe a self-switching headphone jack on
> the front for private listening.

It may be. But not for long if it only works correctly at 48k sample rate,
and they can hear other systems that sound better...

> > If someone hasn't heard really good audio they may have no concern out
> > of lack of experience...

> I have heard supposedly good audio. I use MP3s and listen with €30
> headphones (proper headphones, not those ear-buds, unless I'm outside).
> Why? The proper audio was the gold-plated special. I was supposed to
> swoon when he mentioned the name of the manufacturer.

Afraid it isn't clear to me that any of the above is what I'd call good
audio. More below...

> I was supposed to
> be entranced with a thingummy (eq box?) that had more buttons and
> indicators than the Shuttle. Perhaps more than every Shuttle ever added
> together.

> From this, I took home three things:

> 1. Holy Hell that cost a bomb. I simply cannot justify dropping a grand
> on a flippin' SPEAKER. Even after winning the lottery, I wouldn't be
> able to justify those sorts of prices for something to install into a
> living room. A theatre, perhaps. A living room? No.

That would not necessarily stop you finding speakers for much less that
gave good results. Indeed, you may find 100 quid range headphones give
better results than any speakers in every way bar stereo imaging.

OK, some of us are mad. Willing to spend lots of money on things like
speakers and DACs. But for at least some of us that do this its simply
because we enjoy the sound we get as a result.

If you've heard something like a pair of Quad ESLs well set up in a room
playing a good 'acoustic' recording you will know what I mean. But if
someone hasn't heard such convincing stereo imaging they won't. You close
your eyes and can hear where the instruments are at the hall. Placed well
beyond the speakers in front of you. Stereo means 'solid' not 'two
speakers'. You get stereo like reality.

> 2. It didn't distort when the sound was cranked up enough to feel like a
> physical assault. I could actually feel the bass kicking me in the gut.
> But it didn't distort. It didn't impress much either. What is it with
> cranking the thing up for a demonstration?

Same as above re modern 'pop'. The presumption widespread in the music biz
that LOUD = good. So RELENTLESSLKY LOUD must be 'wonderful'.

> 3. What a twat. For both of the above reasons.

> So, I stick with audio stuff I can afford and I don't lose sleep if it
> isn't absolutely perfect. I'm far more bothered by the massive number of
> (to me) highly visible artefacts in HD pictures than with the bitrate of
> my sound. Just so long as it is better than 128kbit!

All of which is fine. But counter that with the thought that 'high quality'
audio is one area that tends to do well even in hard times for most of us.

There are still people around happy to pay for good systems. And their
doing so then can be a 'flagship' for those who end up spending less

> > But am totally out of my depth when it comes to things closer to the
> > real hardware layer like a USB stack, etc.

> I think many are. There are few people that understand the magic
> incantations that gets USB working. Because it isn't just USB you are
> talking about. It is the RISC OS sound system, how RISC OS deals with
> interrupts, USB, and a ton of glue to get it all talking. This is, of
> course, assuming that your request is even possible without a complete
> rewrite of how audio is handled by RISC OS.


> > module... As thinks stand I have no idea how to get a version of that
> > working on an ARMiniX. Even given the sources, no idea how to adapt
> > it. So

> ARMini - that's basically a Beagle, right?

ARMiniX PandaBoard.

> > just like I wish I was able to still climb around on top of volcanos,
> > etc. :-)

> *Still*?!

Sort of thing I did in the 1980s. These days I have to walk carefully when
there is ice on the pavement! :-)

> > With Linux I can get somewhere with ALSA and things like the HID
> > libraries.

> Where the hard work has already been done.

Yes. And for RO if someone manages to engineer the ability to output decent
audio I'd be happy to do similar user-level software. *And* to publicise RO
systems in magazine articles. I can't pay the full commercial cost by
myself for someone to do the USB Audio. But I could help boost any success
based upon it. I'd like to do that.

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <532af7d4...@argonet.co.uk>, Stuart

<Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article
> <475dfdf9-cbed-4cd9...@i5g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>,
> <heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > A much better test would have been an orchestral piece that crosses
> > the octaves to see how well fidelity is handled - bass and treble
> > together.

> Or a piano.

> The trouble is few people actually know what one really sounds like.

> Stand next to one, listen to it, let the sound fully overwhelm you then
> go away and cry because you cannot reproduce what you have just
> experienced.

Also bear in mind that no two pianos sound the same, if only because in
different rooms. The room or hall is part of the 'instrument'. You can
easily hear this on piano music compilations with items made in different
halls even by the same team.

And also bear in mind that some audio systems can get a lot closer to a
convincing reproduction than others. So don't just cry, start looking and
listening. :-)

BTW We do have a piano in one room, and HiFi systems in two others. And we
do enjoy the music.

[Jim Lesurf]

In article
<0aa34d6a-e512-40ec...@z4g2000vbz.googlegroups.com>,
<heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On Mar 12, 12:01 am, Stuart <Spam...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> > Or a piano.

> Indeed, an instrument with an impressive range of notes and "textures".
> Can't think of a better word, but it's the word that comes to mind when
> twenty people playing the same thing will have twenty different sounds;
> not the same thing twenty times.

Tambre comes to mind IIRC.

> > Stand next to one, listen to it, let the sound fully overwhelm you
> > then go away and cry because you cannot reproduce what you have just
> > experienced.

> The main thing, that you have to listen carefully for, are the harmonics
> between the strings when the sustain pedal is active. Hitting a note,
> particularly those left of middle C, will cause the entire frame to
> vibrate just enough to cause sympathetic vibrations in other strings. It
> is this that gives a piano its pleasing richness, and each design of
> piano is different. The effect is more pronounced in grands, less so in
> uprights.

It is also a matter of the components *not* being harmonics. Partly because
of the non-linear aspect of the vibrations. Partly due to the tuning of the
individual strings.

> I don't think we'll see a day when a synthesiser is capable of emulating
> this facet of the piano.


> > Wonderful, everyone should take singing lessons.

> You haven't heard me sing...

The World can feel relieved that they haven't heard me 'sing' either! :-)

[charles]

In article <532b3f5...@audiomisc.co.uk>,

Jim Lesurf <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <532af7d4...@argonet.co.uk>, Stuart
> <Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article
> > <475dfdf9-cbed-4cd9...@i5g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>,
> > <heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > > A much better test would have been an orchestral piece that crosses
> > > the octaves to see how well fidelity is handled - bass and treble
> > > together.

> > Or a piano.

> > The trouble is few people actually know what one really sounds like.

> > Stand next to one, listen to it, let the sound fully overwhelm you then
> > go away and cry because you cannot reproduce what you have just
> > experienced.

> Also bear in mind that no two pianos sound the same, if only because in
> different rooms. The room or hall is part of the 'instrument'. You can
> easily hear this on piano music compilations with items made in different
> halls even by the same team.

> And also bear in mind that some audio systems can get a lot closer to a
> convincing reproduction than others. So don't just cry, start looking and
> listening. :-)

> BTW We do have a piano in one room, and HiFi systems in two others. And we
> do enjoy the music.

and thinking of pianos in rooms, when we were on holiday in Russia a few
years ago, the Selling billboards outside new apartment blocks all featured
a room with a grand piano - here it's a large screen tv.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

[Timothy Hartley]

In message <532b3fb...@audiomisc.co.uk>

I never had to smack the children or threaten to do so - I'd just
threaten to sing. Sicne they were musical that was enough to secure
instant obedience

Tim Hartley

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <532af7d4...@argonet.co.uk>,
Stuart <Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

> Stand next to one, listen to it, let the sound fully overwhelm you then
> go away and cry because you cannot reproduce what you have just
> experienced.

Depends on how it's recorded - and reproduced.

Generally, you won't be standing next to a piano when listening to a
performance. You'll likely be in an auditorium, with the piano on the
stage. So that's the most common way of recording a piano - few would
actually want a performance that sounds like it was recorded in a domestic
living room.

--
*Speak softly and carry a cellular phone *

Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Dave Symes]

In article <532b4286...@charleshope.demon.co.uk>,
charles <cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
[Snippy

> and thinking of pianos in rooms, when we were on holiday in Russia a few
> years ago, the Selling billboards outside new apartment blocks all
> featured a room with a grand piano - here it's a large screen tv.

In the 21st century large screen TV, a far, far more useful item to have.

The only useful use for a grand piano these day (Considering how cold it
is ATM) would be to chop it up for firewood.

Phylis Stein-Way << ;-)

--

Dave Triffid

[spampling]

In article <532b31f9...@argonet.co.uk>,

Stuart <Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article
> <0aa34d6a-e512-40ec...@z4g2000vbz.googlegroups.com>,
> <heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > You haven't heard me sing...

> That's why people should have proper lessons, including most people who
> believe they /can/ sing.

I've come across people who believe I can sing - thereby demonstrating that
they are tone deaf or daft, or both.

--

Steve Pampling

[spampling]

In article <eb30142b5...@blueyonder.co.uk>,

Harriet Bazley <baz...@feathermail.co.uk> wrote:
> My father always used to swear by piano recordings to test the quality
> of audio equipment...

Pink Floyd - Saucerful of Secrets.

Seems to stretch the kit in various ways[1] that even classical items just
do not.

[1] To destruction if the manufacturers haven't quite told the truth on
power handling.

--

Steve Pampling

[Peter Young]

Coleridge:

Swans sing before they die; t'were no bad thing
Should certain people die before they sing.

I can't sing either.

With best wishes,

Peter.

--
Peter Young (zfc Ta) and family
Prestbury, Cheltenham, Glos. GL52, England
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
pny...@ormail.co.uk

[heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk]

On Mar 12, 8:13 pm, Dave Symes <d...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:

> In the 21st century large screen TV, a far, far more useful item to have.

Hmm... I'd need a "display" for my animé. But the sad thing is a gale
a few weeks (months?) ago knocked my satellite dish a fraction off
(some channels okay, others dead) and I've only just got around to
realigning it. Not that there is anything worth watching.

<looks at tvguide.co.uk> Oh my God! I'm going to wet myself! The Matt
Lucas Awards! Soooo.... actually not that exciting.
BBC2...ITV...C5...C5...um...er...uh... I liked "Repo! The Genetic
Opera" (Horror Channel, real soon) but I've seen it enough times
already that I'm in danger of knowing how the Zydrate song goes. It
comes in a little glass vial, you know? ;-)

Pretty much the most amusing thing is that Horror Channel is showing
"Demons" tonight. It is a film from '85 "presented by" Dario Argento.
However as you can see here - http://www.tvguide.co.uk/channellisting.asp?ch=425&cTime=3/12/2013%2010:00:00%20PM
- the TVGuide website has done a rather braindead title match and put
in a graphic for the more recent (2009) ITV drama "Demons" - that
underrated and much-maligned hamfest starring Gene Hunt and his
totally non-convincing American accent, an annoying teenage boy who
battled vampires or something, a reasonably cute teenage girl that
said "bloody hell" every other sentence, and a blind woman who was
hopeless at acting blind. It was so silly it was funny. I'd watch that
again. Already seen the Argento film. Twice.

> The only useful use for a grand piano these day (Considering how cold it
> is ATM) would be to chop it up for firewood.

So maybe if the spring animé season is as poor as it looks [*] then
it'll be time to make my own entertainment and a piano (even one with
microchips inside) might be a more attractive proposition.


* - I seem to say this every time I read the synopsis. It's as if the
fan-service-and-mecha-obsessed otaku that write the lists highlight
the crap series first. Seriously "A boy meets girl story where the
girl is a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds and the boy is the only one who
can save the world by...going on a date with that girl." - wow, we
haven't had that story before have we? My benchmarks are "Genocyber"
and "Saikano". I expect disappointment. Or "A comedy about a mermaid,
who gets caught by a boy in a high school fishing club." - eh? Not to
mention "Follows a new front desk worker at the titular Sparrow's
Hotel. She's notable for her large breasts and for being a skilled
assassin." - note which of her attributes is listed first.

<sigh>


Best wishes,

Rick.

[Sprow]

On Mar 11, 8:20 pm, heyrickmail-use...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > I presume the situation isn't helped by having what seems like more than
> > one 'stack' around, etc...
>
> I don't imagine that would be a big problem, for there's one stack
> unlikely to be further developed for a system unlikely to be further
> developed... and there's the other one. ;-)

[...]

> Looking at the source for some guidance as to what may be different, I
> gave up. Looks like completely different base source to me!

This shouldn't come as any surprise, earlier in your post you've
correctly spotted that it's a USB *stack*.

A fairly good parallel is the internet stack - there's the Internet
module (a port from BSD wrapped in a RISC OS module, with some
callback fudgery to emulate threading) and below that is the DCI4
driver for the respective ethernet podule or NIC.

For USB, the USBDriver (also happens to be a port from BSD, wrapped,
with some callbacks) is higher up the stack than the controller
driver. The controller drivers present a common interface to
USBDriver, a bit like the DCI spec would for networking, but each and
every SOC will need a new controller driver.

There's a generic OHCI one (because OHCI is a vaguely standard USB
controller interface), but the BeagleBoard has it's own dual function
OTG thingy, and the Raspberry Pi has a Broadcom controller of some
sort.

There's no reason for any of them to look the same - they're driving
completely different controllers, and they're written by different
people.

So, in your MIDI investigations you can probably eliminate DeviceFS
and USBDriver since they'd be common factors, and any difference is /
something/ in the controller,
Sprow.

[Jim Lesurf]

On 12 Mar, no...@audiomisc.co.uk wrote:
> In article

> Well the point of the USB DACs I've been talking about is that they do
> *not* require any driver. Work out-of-the box with Linux, etc. In fact
> they work *better* with Linux as the Linux system avoids some of the
> presumptions that Windows and Mac OS/software then to impose.

It occurs to me to add another point here wrt USB DACs being sensible for
RO hardware.

It is quite common for the default internal audio hardware in a computer to
only actually work properly at one sample rate. The Iyonix is a classic
example.

When you play 48k material the samples are DAC'ed and output OK.

But when you play 44.1k sample rate material (e.g. from Audio CD) the
output is corrupted. The hardware tries to play out the samples at 48k
rate. This means that it often has to 'repeat the previous value' which
produces quite marked anharmonic distortions.

The advantage of the the iso/asynch USB DACs is that they handle all the
timing and bufferring. They just get the host to send them another batch
when they want it to keep their buffer filled up. So the host doesn't need
to do most of the work or the timing. Just send batches of data as and when
asked.

With the internal 'sound cards' the details will tend to vary from one
machine to another, meaning tweaks to how the audio hardware is addressed.
So audio apps that connect to the hardware have to be altered when moved to
a new machine. The RPi, ARMini, etc, differ from the Iyonix, etc...

But with USB the same USB Audio level code stands a chance of working when
the machine changes if the basic part of the USB stack is sorted.

So for RO it seems to me that USB DACs aren't just a matter of superb sound
quality for those keen on the best possible audio. They should also make
keeping RO up as the hardware evolves much easier. Big contrast with having
to twiddle code to get even one sample rate working moderately well...

[Theo Markettos]

Chris Evans <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
> Three RISC OS USB Stacks actually!
>
> Castle USB Podule: Suitable for use with Printers and some keyboards, mice
> and certain epson scanners. No longer being developed.
>
> Simtec USB Podule/Unipod/A9home: suitable for as above plus USB mass storage
> up to 2GB FAT format (larger? on A9home version), Filecore format USB mass
> storage up to 250MB? and most of Dave Higton's USB toys! No longer being
> developed.

MassFS 1 (Simtec USB/Unipod):
2GiB FAT

MassFS 1.9x/2 (A9home or softload)
2GiB FAT
256GiB Filecore?
xxxGiB FAT32FS?

Each device needs listing in the OtherDevs file.

Supports one STD-supplied wifi card.

> RISC OS 5s USB: Suitable for all of the above plus FAT format up to 1GB?
> and probably more. Also faster speed!

2GiB FAT
Whatever the current Filecore max is - 256GiB?
The same again for FAT32FS

Also supports:
USB ethernet (EtherUSB)
USB serial/3G modems (ComCenter)

Generally a wider range of devices.

Theo

[heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk]

On Mar 13, 5:59 pm, Jim Lesurf <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:

> It is quite common for the default internal audio hardware in a computer to
> only actually work properly at one sample rate. The Iyonix is a classic
> example.
> When you play 48k material the samples are DAC'ed and output OK.

Does anybody have a link to a datasheet/TRM for the audio chip in the
Iyonix? Purely for personal 'amusement' as I find it incredible that
the chip does not natively support 44.1k given that that's the common
CD audio format and just as likely to be present as the 48k DVD
samplerate. To not support both seems rather...short-sighted.


Best wishes,

Rick.

[Jim Lesurf]

In article
<420c2035-5e74-4a43...@a14g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>,

I do have the TRM but will have to look to check. (I gave up on the Iyonix
for anything other than 48k years ago.) However AFAICR it uses a cheap
basic AC97 type chip. And fed with a fixed clock rate for 48k. I think this
meant that the chip has no way of being told about any other rate. It just
works by the clock it is given.

By contrast, the checks I've just made on an ARMiniX seem to confirm it
works OK with 44.1, 48, 88.2 *and* 96k rate material. !PlaySound + !PlayIt
output these very nicely in some basic tests I've just done. The software
reads the rate from the file header, then plays out at that rate. I'll need
to do more careful tests to see if there are still problems, though. But
looks promising so far. :-)

[Harriet Bazley]

On 12 Mar 2013 as I do recall,

heyrickma...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> On Mar 12, 12:01�am, Stuart <Spam...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:

[snip pianos]

> > Stand next to one, listen to it, let the sound fully overwhelm you then go
> > away and cry because you cannot reproduce what you have just experienced.
>
> The main thing, that you have to listen carefully for, are the
> harmonics between the strings when the sustain pedal is active.
> Hitting a note, particularly those left of middle C, will cause the
> entire frame to vibrate just enough to cause sympathetic vibrations in
> other strings. It is this that gives a piano its pleasing richness,
> and each design of piano is different. The effect is more pronounced
> in grands, less so in uprights.
>

This would explain why standing next to our upright piano (1930s Steck -
heavily overhauled about ten years ago) totally failed to bring me to
tears when singing last night :-)

(Or perhaps it was the quality of my semi-trained parlour soprano ;-p)

Clearly someone needs to bring a piano to a RISC OS show for the
frustration of the sound technicians and the benefit of those with
singing lessons!

--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK...

[Stuart]

In article <2ef723305...@blueyonder.co.uk>,

Harriet Bazley <baz...@feathermail.co.uk> wrote:
> Clearly someone needs to bring a piano to a RISC OS show for the
> frustration of the sound technicians and the benefit of those with
> singing lessons!

We have a suitable pianist within the MUG group but the hall we have the
Midland show in has only an upright. On the other hand, I do have keys to
the church and hence access to the grand!

--
Stuart Winsor

Midlands RISC OS show 13th July 2013

[charles]

In article <53305e65...@argonet.co.uk>,

Stuart <Spa...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <2ef723305...@blueyonder.co.uk>,
> Harriet Bazley <baz...@feathermail.co.uk> wrote:
> > Clearly someone needs to bring a piano to a RISC OS show for the
> > frustration of the sound technicians and the benefit of those with
> > singing lessons!

> We have a suitable pianist within the MUG group but the hall we have the
> Midland show in has only an upright. On the other hand, I do have keys to
> the church and hence access to the grand!

rather too far for Harriet to cycle, I suspect ;-)

[ChrisF]

In message <532b5d5ee9...@btinternet.com>

spampling <spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:



> I've come across people who believe I can sing - thereby demonstrating that
> they are tone deaf or daft, or both.

Have faith.

"'Tis better to give than to receive."

--
BW Chris F. [Supporting British RISC OS computing.]
Skype: c.n.l.f Twitter: MrChrisGB Blogsite: mr-chris-gb.blogspot.com
Would you like something done? Email: emailt...@38degrees.org.uk

[ChrisF]

In message <532b5da122...@btinternet.com>

spampling <spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:



> Pink Floyd - Saucerful of Secrets.

> Seems to stretch the kit in various ways[1] that even classical items just
> do not.

> [1] To destruction if the manufacturers haven't quite told the truth on
> power handling.

....... but 'Dark side of the moon' was the standard Floyd album used
by Gramophone back in the day?

--
BW Chris F. [Supporting British RISC OS computing.]
Skype: c.n.l.f Twitter: MrChrisGB Blogsite: mr-chris-gb.blogspot.com

Make your views known to: emailt...@38degrees.org.uk

[spampling]

In article <adcf1c325...@virgin.net>, ChrisF <c.n...@virgin.net>
wrote:

> In message <532b5da122...@btinternet.com> spampling
> <spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:



> > Pink Floyd - Saucerful of Secrets.

> > Seems to stretch the kit in various ways[1] that even classical items
> > just do not.

> > [1] To destruction if the manufacturers haven't quite told the truth
> > on power handling.

> ....... but 'Dark side of the moon' was the standard Floyd album used
> by Gramophone back in the day?

It was popular, however the dynamic range of SoS was rather large over a
wide range of frequencies simultaneously.
An audio shop in Birmingham used to have the nice switchable speaker and
amp sets and record sales at the front of the store where they picked out
real music samples.
At least one set of speakers didn't live up to the rating and what the amp
delivered, with Pink Floyd's input, did some interesting but rather
terminal things to the speakers.

--

Steve Pampling

[Jess]

In message <EID*C0...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>

Theo Markettos <theom...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>> RISC OS 5s USB: Suitable for all of the above plus FAT format up to 1GB?
>> and probably more. Also faster speed!

> 2GiB FAT
> Whatever the current Filecore max is - 256GiB?
> The same again for FAT32FS

Doesn't fat32fs work around the 256 GB limit?

--
Jess Iyonix

[Dave Higton]

In message <21269f4...@itworkshop.invalid>

I believe so, by working at file level rather than block level.

Dave

[druck]

It works around FileCore's 2GB image filing system limit which restricts
DOSFS, but it can't work around FileCore's limit of block addressable
storage of 256GB.

---druck

[cfe...@freeremoveuk.com.invalid]

In message <km5jbj$k1m$1...@dont-email.me>

Are you sure - in Fat32Fs documentation - there is talk of a 500GB
drive having over 60MBytes FAT table.


--
Colin Ferris Cornwall UK