Continuing Problems using Postscipt 3 Printer Driver with Easiwriter

[Russell Hafter News]

Over the past two or three months I have had frequent
problems using the Postscipt 3 Printer Driver (ver 1.21)
with Easiwriter (ver 8.82) on my RPC (Turbo StrongARM, RO
4.02) to Print to a Samsung Laser Printer that understands
Postscript 3. Printers 1.64a.

Network connection, using RemotePrintersFS;
RemotePrinterFS#proto=LPD;address=192.168.2.120;queue=auto;sendfirst=datafile:

Before aquiring the Samsung printer I would try to use the
Postscript 3 driver to produce PDFs from Easiwriter. If I
tried to save the PDF into Pluto as an attachment this lmost
always failed, if saving to a folder, then there was a much
better chance of success (say 65-70%). I never had any such
problems using the Postscript 2 driver, so, until getting
the Samsung printer in the new year, I had abandoned the use
of the Postscript 3 driver, except for the specific driver
used by Steve Fryatt's PrintPDF, which seems to have no
problems.

The poblems printing from EW usually manifest themselves
with the error message "Easiwriter may have gone
wrong". Clicking on 'Describe' I get a little more
information: Something along the lines of 'Printer Driver
error on data transfer at &039D6210' (this error address,
which I have seen before, appeared again this morning).

I have also seen 'Undefined font handle' and 'Font not
found' errors.

I get the feeling, though I have not had time to pursue this
thoroughly, that documents that only contain the ROM fonts
Tinity, Homerton + New Hall do not present any problems, but
if I use other fonts - most usually EFF's Quorum font, which
I use frequently - then these crashes are to be expected at
sometime.

I have not had any problems printing from !Draw (though this
is not something I do often).

Sometimes, though, printing crashes the system completely
and I have to use the reset button.

I was able, a few weeks ago, to clear the problem for a
short time by re-installing the Postscript 3 driver, but
this did not last.

I have raised these problems on both the EW and Postscript
mailing lists, but no solution, so I am hoping that a wider
audience may have some ideas!

--
Russell
http://www.russell-hafter-holidays.co.uk
Russell Hafter Holidays E-mail to enquiries at our domain
Need a hotel? <http://www.hrs.com/?client=en__blue&customerId=416873103>

[Martin Wuerthner]

Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

> Over the past two or three months I have had frequent problems using the
> Postscipt 3 Printer Driver (ver 1.21) with Easiwriter (ver 8.82) on my RPC
> (Turbo StrongARM, RO 4.02) to Print to a Samsung Laser Printer that
> understands Postscript 3. Printers 1.64a.
>
> Network connection, using RemotePrintersFS;
> RemotePrinterFS#proto=LPD;address=192.168.2.120;queue=auto;
> sendfirst=datafile:
>
> Before aquiring the Samsung printer I would try to use the Postscript 3
> driver to produce PDFs from Easiwriter. If I tried to save the PDF into
> Pluto as an attachment this lmost always failed

Saving a PDF directly to another application is not supposed to work. You
need to save to disc first. This should not be related to the other problems
you describe.

> if saving to a folder,
> then there was a much better chance of success (say 65-70%). I never had
> any such problems using the Postscript 2 driver, so, until getting the
> Samsung printer in the new year, I had abandoned the use of the Postscript
> 3 driver, except for the specific driver used by Steve Fryatt's PrintPDF,
> which seems to have no problems.

There is only one PS3 driver. PrintPDF does not use any specific or even
different driver from any other use of the PS3 driver. It does not matter
whether you directly print to a PS3 printer, whether you save as PostScript
from EasiWriter, save as PDF from EasiWriter or use PrintPDF with its
PoScript3 printer definition. It is always the same driver. So, that does
not look like a problem with the driver itself.

> The poblems printing from EW usually manifest themselves with the error
> message "Easiwriter may have gone wrong". Clicking on 'Describe' I get a
> little more information: Something along the lines of 'Printer Driver
> error on data transfer at &039D6210' (this error address, which I have
> seen before, appeared again this morning).

This is the address of a module, so the "where" utility will tell you which
module has crashed. Can you let us know please? "Where" can be found at
http://www.armclub.org.uk/32bit/ - save the utility file wherever you want
(e.g., the root directory), and after the crash has occurred, open a
TaskWindow and type "<path>.where" (in case you put it into the root
directory, type "$.where").

> I was able, a few weeks ago, to clear the problem for a short time by
> re-installing the Postscript 3 driver, but this did not last.

I am not aware of anything a re-install of the driver could possibly change,
so I cannot see any point in doing that.

--
Martin Wuerthner MW Software http://www.mw-software.com/

------- RISC OS Software for Design, Printing and Publishing --------

[Russell Hafter News]

In article
<mpro.mm7yr2005i...@mw-software.com>, Martin

Wuerthner <spam...@mw-software.com> wrote:

> > Before aquiring the Samsung printer I would try to use
> > the Postscript 3 driver to produce PDFs from
> > Easiwriter. If I tried to save the PDF into Pluto as an

> > attachment this almost always failed

> Saving a PDF directly to another application is not
> supposed to work. You need to save to disc first. This
> should not be related to the other problems you describe.

I take it that is is specific to the Postscript 3 driver?

It always worked with the Acorn Postscript 2 driver.

[Martin Wuerthner]

Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

> In article <mpro.mm7yr2005i...@mw-software.com>, Martin
> Wuerthner <spam...@mw-software.com> wrote:
>
> > > Before aquiring the Samsung printer I would try to use the Postscript
> > > 3 driver to produce PDFs from Easiwriter. If I tried to save the PDF
> > > into Pluto as an attachment this almost always failed
>
> > Saving a PDF directly to another application is not supposed to work.
> > You need to save to disc first. This should not be related to the other
> > problems you describe.
>
> I take it that is is specific to the Postscript 3 driver?

No. There is no difference in the way the overall saving process works,
EasiWriter just uses whichever driver is present.

> It always worked with the Acorn Postscript 2 driver.

Yes, you are right. I thought you could only save to disc, but you can
indeed use "Save as PDF" to save to an application.

However, this works with both drivers (PS2 and PS3) here, so I cannot
reproduce your problem.

[Chris Shepheard]

In message <5345fabc...@walkingingermany.invalid>

Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid>
wrote:

> I get the feeling, though I have not had time to pursue this
> thoroughly, that documents that only contain the ROM fonts
> Tinity, Homerton + New Hall do not present any problems, but
> if I use other fonts - most usually EFF's Quorum font, which
> I use frequently - then these crashes are to be expected at
> sometime.

To eliminate the possibility of a font problem how about creating a
Draw document with some text in the "problem" font?

First try printing it direct via the PS3 driver, then convert the font
in the document to path and print it again. See if either creates the
error.

That should help eliminate the possibility of a font error.

I have regular problems on one RPC using PrintPDF. The first document
I try to create often (90% of the time) errors in the Ghostscript
stage but always succeeds on subsequent attempts as do all following
documents.

I have reported this to Steve Fryatt but I don't think he has managed
to trace the problem. I wonder if it could be a related issue

Chris

--

Chris Shepheard writing as himself
chris.s...@chrispics.co.uk
from far west Surrey www.chrispics.co.uk

[Steve Joyce]

In message <2258304653.ch...@shepheard.plus.com>

I also get this first time error when using PrintPDF. It seems to lack
some vital information that it can find on the second attempt. I've
tried changing all the info that is supplied in the dialog box, but it
doesn't change things.

--
Steve Joyce

[Russell Hafter News]

In article
<mpro.mm7yr2005i...@mw-software.com>, Martin
Wuerthner <spam...@mw-software.com> wrote:

> > The poblems printing from EW usually manifest
> > themselves with the error message "Easiwriter may have
> > gone wrong". Clicking on 'Describe' I get a little more
> > information: Something along the lines of 'Printer
> > Driver error on data transfer at &039D6210' (this error
> > address, which I have seen before, appeared again this
> > morning).

> This is the address of a module, so the "where" utility
> will tell you which module has crashed. Can you let us
> know please? "Where" can be found at
> http://www.armclub.org.uk/32bit/ - save the utility file
> wherever you want (e.g., the root directory), and after
> the crash has occurred, open a TaskWindow and type
> "<path>.where" (in case you put it into the root
> directory, type "$.where").

I have downloaded 'Where', but there hve been no urther
crashes this week.

I shall report back when there is one.

[druck]

On 03/05/2013 10:50, Russell Hafter News wrote:
> The poblems printing from EW usually manifest themselves
> with the error message "Easiwriter may have gone
> wrong". Clicking on 'Describe' I get a little more
> information: Something along the lines of 'Printer Driver
> error on data transfer at &039D6210' (this error address,
> which I have seen before, appeared again this morning).

Use the command line utility 'where' from
http://www.armclub.org.uk/32bit/ immediately after the error to
determine which module the error occurred in. Modules can load at
different locations each time, so this is essential to determine where
the issue lies, the address on its own is useless.

---druck

[Tony Moore]

On 3 May 2013, Martin Wuerthner <spam...@mw-software.com> wrote:

[snip]

> "Where" can be found at http://www.armclub.org.uk/32bit/ - save the
> utility file wherever you want (e.g., the root directory), and after
> the crash has occurred, open a TaskWindow and type "<path>.where" (in
> case you put it into the root directory, type "$.where").

If Where is in !Boot.Library, the path can be omitted from the command

Tony

[Russell Hafter News]

In article
<bd78484753.old_coaster@old_coaster.yahoo.co.uk>, Tony

Thanks for that.

I have now moved it there, ready for use when there is
another crash.

[Russell Hafter News]

In article
<mpro.mm7yr2005i...@mw-software.com>, Martin
Wuerthner <spam...@mw-software.com> wrote:

> > The poblems printing from EW usually manifest
> > themselves with the error message "Easiwriter may have
> > gone wrong". Clicking on 'Describe' I get a little more
> > information: Something along the lines of 'Printer
> > Driver error on data transfer at &039D6210' (this error
> > address, which I have seen before, appeared again this
> > morning).

> This is the address of a module, so the "where" utility
> will tell you which module has crashed. Can you let us
> know please? "Where" can be found at
> http://www.armclub.org.uk/32bit/ - save the utility file
> wherever you want (e.g., the root directory), and after
> the crash has occurred, open a TaskWindow and type
> "<path>.where" (in case you put it into the root
> directory, type "$.where").

where
Address 039D6210 is at offset 00004748 in module FontManager

So there does appear to be a problem with font handling.

This time the crash came after I had printed a number of
documents; he document that caused the crash had both ROM
onts *and* the Quorum font.

Other documents that only used Quorum did not cause
problems.

[Russell Hafter News]

In article
<mpro.mm7yr2005i...@mw-software.com>, Martin
Wuerthner <spam...@mw-software.com> wrote:

> > The poblems printing from EW usually manifest
> > themselves with the error message "Easiwriter may have
> > gone wrong". Clicking on 'Describe' I get a little more
> > information: Something along the lines of 'Printer
> > Driver error on data transfer at &039D6210' (this error
> > address, which I have seen before, appeared again this
> > morning).

> This is the address of a module, so the "where" utility
> will tell you which module has crashed. Can you let us
> know please? "Where" can be found at
> http://www.armclub.org.uk/32bit/ - save the utility file
> wherever you want (e.g., the root directory), and after
> the crash has occurred, open a TaskWindow and type
> "<path>.where" (in case you put it into the root
> directory, type "$.where").

And this morning:

where
Address 039D7A58 is at offset 00005F90 in module FontManager

Still sems to be a problem with font handling.

This time the crash came while trying to produce a PDF using
EW Ghostscript.

Further, this was the first EW document opened (and
amended) that caused the crash. Again, it has both ROM
fonts *and* the Quorum font.

A PDF file was produced, though it contained no text.
However, the file itself was not empty. This is what it
contained, in case there are some clues there...

----------------------------------------------------------------

%PDF-1.4
%�쏢
5 0 obj
<</Length 6 0 R/Filter /FlateDecode>>
stream
x�+T0�3T0
endobj
6 0 obj
23
endobj
4 0 obj
<</Type/Page/MediaBox [0 0 612 792]
/Parent 3 0 R
/Resources<</ProcSet[/PDF]
>>
/Contents 5 0 R
>>
endobj
3 0 obj
<< /Type /Pages /Kids [
4 0 R
] /Count 1
>>
endobj
1 0 obj
<</Type /Catalog /Pages 3 0 R
/Metadata 7 0 R
>>
endobj
7 0 obj
<</Length 1381>>stream
<?xpacket begin='' id='W5M0MpCehiHzreSzNTczkc9d'?>
<?adobe-xap-filters esc="CRLF"?>
<x:xmpmeta xmlns:x='adobe:ns:meta/' x:xmptk='XMP toolkit
2.9.1-13, framework 1.6'>
<rdf:RDF
xmlns:rdf='http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#'
xmlns:iX='http://ns.adobe.com/iX/1.0/'>
<rdf:Description
rdf:about='505eb8a0-efd9-11ed-0000-cf1d414bf02b'
xmlns:pdf='http://ns.adobe.com/pdf/1.3/' pdf:Producer='GPL
Ghostscript 8.54'/>
<rdf:Description
rdf:about='505eb8a0-efd9-11ed-0000-cf1d414bf02b'
xmlns:xap='http://ns.adobe.com/xap/1.0/'
xap:ModifyDate='2013-05-08'
xap:CreateDate='2013-05-08'><xap:CreatorTool>GPL Ghostscript
8.54 PDF Writer</xap:CreatorTool></rdf:Description>
<rdf:Description
rdf:about='505eb8a0-efd9-11ed-0000-cf1d414bf02b'
xmlns:xapMM='http://ns.adobe.com/xap/1.0/mm/'
xapMM:DocumentID='505eb8a0-efd9-11ed-0000-cf1d414bf02b'/>
<rdf:Description
rdf:about='505eb8a0-efd9-11ed-0000-cf1d414bf02b'
xmlns:dc='http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/'
dc:format='application/pdf'><dc:title><rdf:Alt><rdf:li
xml:lang='x-default'>\(ADFS::HardDisc4.$.RHH.!Admin.AdminForms.HolExtrasInv\)</rdf:li></rdf:Alt></dc:title><dc:creator><rdf:Seq><rdf:li>()</rdf:li></rdf:Seq></dc:creator></rdf:Description>
</rdf:RDF>
</x:xmpmeta>




<?xpacket end='w'?>
endstream
endobj
2 0 obj
<</Producer(GPL Ghostscript 8.54)
/CreationDate(D:20130508095335)
/ModDate(D:20130508095335)
/Title(\(ADFS::HardDisc4.$.RHH.!Admin.AdminForms.HolExtrasInv\))
/Creator(PDriverPS3 1.21 \(01 Jun 2012\) PostScript 3)
/Author()>>endobj
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%%EOF

[Russell Hafter News]

In article
<mpro.mm7yr2005i...@mw-software.com>, Martin
Wuerthner <spam...@mw-software.com> wrote:

> > The poblems printing from EW usually manifest
> > themselves with the error message "Easiwriter may have
> > gone wrong". Clicking on 'Describe' I get a little more
> > information: Something along the lines of 'Printer
> > Driver error on data transfer at &039D6210' (this error
> > address, which I have seen before, appeared again this
> > morning).

> This is the address of a module, so the "where" utility
> will tell you which module has crashed. Can you let us
> know please? "Where" can be found at
> http://www.armclub.org.uk/32bit/ - save the utility file
> wherever you want (e.g., the root directory), and after
> the crash has occurred, open a TaskWindow and type
> "<path>.where" (in case you put it into the root
> directory, type "$.where").

And this morning:

where
Address 039D7A58 is at offset 00005F90 in module FontManager

I have !Fonts 1.17 (24-Jun-99).

Is there perhaps a newer version that runs under RO 4.02
that might solve the problem?

[Jim Nagel]

Russell Hafter News wrote on 8 May:

> I have !Fonts 1.17 (24-Jun-99).
> Is there perhaps a newer version that runs under RO 4.02
> that might solve the problem?

As far as I can make out, !Fonts doesn't do much more than store
fonts. Its runfile, however, calls for the module Fontmanager --
version 3.40 of it is RMensured by Ro 4.39 !Fonts; Iyonix (Ro 5.18)
RMensures Fontmanager 2.89 though 3.70 (2011dec) is in actual use.

What does *help fontmanager show on your system?


--
Jim Nagel www.archivemag.co.uk
>> "from" address is genuine but will change. website has current one.

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <f9c6964...@nails.abbeypress.net>, Jim Nagel

<jimne...@abbeypress.co.uk> wrote:

> Russell Hafter News wrote on 8 May:

> > I have !Fonts 1.17 (24-Jun-99). Is there perhaps a
> > newer version that runs under RO 4.02 that might solve
> > the problem?

> As far as I can make out, !Fonts doesn't do much more
> than store fonts. Its runfile, however, calls for the
> module Fontmanager -- version 3.40 of it is RMensured by
> Ro 4.39 !Fonts; Iyonix (Ro 5.18) RMensures Fontmanager
> 2.89 though 3.70 (2011dec) is in actual use.

> What does *help fontmanager show on your system?

Module is: Font Manager 3.40 (17 Aug 1998) (Background
blending)

[Jim Nagel]

Russell Hafter News wrote on 8 May:

>> What does *help fontmanager show on your system?

> Module is: Font Manager 3.40 (17 Aug 1998) (Background
> blending)

On RiscPC (Ro 4.39):
*help fontmanager
Module is: Font Manager 3.51 (28 Jun 2003) (Background blending)
*rommodules
No. Position Module Name Version Status
45 System ROM FontManager 3.51 Active

On Iyonix (Ro 5.18):
*help fontmanager
Module is: Font Manager 3.70 (06 Dec 2011)
*rommodules
40 System ROM FontManager 3.70 Active

So it looks like your Fontmanager 3,40 lives in Rom too, and regarding
your problem is probably a red herring.

--
Jim Nagel www.archivemag.co.uk

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <7e68264...@nails.abbeypress.net>, Jim Nagel

<jimne...@abbeypress.co.uk> wrote:

> So it looks like your Fontmanager 3,40 lives in Rom too,
> and regarding your problem is probably a red herring.

But it **does** seem to be where the crashes are coming
from...

[Martin Wuerthner]

Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

> In article <7e68264...@nails.abbeypress.net>, Jim Nagel
> <jimne...@abbeypress.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > So it looks like your Fontmanager 3,40 lives in Rom too, and regarding
> > your problem is probably a red herring.
>
> But it **does** seem to be where the crashes are coming from...

Yes, but the FontManager is not a module that is routinely softloaded. The
vast majority of RISC OS users use the one supplied in ROM with their
specific version of RISC OS. Some RO4/RO6 users do softload the RISC OS 5
FontManager though because of its huge improvements, but I have not heard of
anyone trying to upgrade the FontManager to work around bugs.

It is likely that the FontManager crashes are caused by a broken font, and
in that case, an updated FontManager may not help anyway. It might be a good
idea to send the Quorum font to John and me for inspection.

As to the version of RISC OS you are running (4.02): This is really ancient.
You may soon find yourself pretty much on your own because nobody else runs
such an old version. I do recommend upgrading at least to RISC OS 4.39
(Adjust), which is still ancient but used by many users. Just like version
4.02 it is avilable on ROM and it offers a lot of useful improvements.

[M Harding]

In article <mpro.mmkr7p000i...@mw-software.com>,

Martin Wuerthner <spam...@mw-software.com> wrote:
> Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

> > In article <7e68264...@nails.abbeypress.net>, Jim Nagel
> > <jimne...@abbeypress.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > So it looks like your Fontmanager 3,40 lives in Rom too, and
> > > regarding your problem is probably a red herring.
> >
> > But it **does** seem to be where the crashes are coming from...

[ . . . ]

> As to the version of RISC OS you are running (4.02): This is really
> ancient. You may soon find yourself pretty much on your own because
> nobody else runs such an old version. I do recommend upgrading at
> least to RISC OS 4.39 (Adjust), which is still ancient but used by
> many users. Just like version 4.02 it is avilable on ROM and it
> offers a lot of useful improvements.

Version 4.02 (1999) also happens to be the one supplied within
SA-VRPC . . . But when you want to keep 2 SA-VRPC computers
compatible with a Kinetic (as I do), and they work, there's not much
incentive to mend something that's working well!

May I add that I use FontDir Pro on all three machines, and though I
have access (via Ian Hamilton's Print Spooler) to CCs' TurboDrivers
on the VRPCs, the Kinetic is very much faster in printing out. The
CCs' TurboDrivers are used for line screen image printing for DTP
masters.

Now let me see . . When is there a spare month for a non-techie to
experiment at changing the ancient system?

Michael Harding
Rev. Preb. M.D. Harding ris...@mdharding.org.uk

[Russell Hafter News]

In article
<mpro.mmkr7p000i...@mw-software.com>, Martin

Wuerthner <spam...@mw-software.com> wrote:

> It is likely that the FontManager crashes are caused by a
> broken font, and in that case, an updated FontManager may
> not help anyway. It might be a good idea to send the
> Quorum font to John and me for inspection.

OK.

As a first step, though, I hve re-installed the font from
the original EFF disc - I rather doubt that EFF would have
supplied a dud font, and I would have thought problems would
have manifested themselves long before this if there were a
problem with the font itself.

It is fairly old - files are dated Sept 1995.

I do not suppose that these fonts have a longer pathname (up
to 61 chars) than the others could be significant?

eg.:
ADFS::HardDisc4.$.!Boot.Resources.!Fonts.Quorum.Latin2.Medium

[Russell Hafter News]

In article
<mpro.mmkr7p000i...@mw-software.com>,

Martin Wuerthner <spam...@mw-software.com> wrote:

> As to the version of RISC OS you are running (4.02): This
> is really ancient. You may soon find yourself pretty much
> on your own because nobody else runs such an old version.
> I do recommend upgrading at least to RISC OS 4.39
> (Adjust), which is still ancient but used by many users.
> Just like version 4.02 it is avilable on ROM and it
> offers a lot of useful improvements.

I do **hate** OS upgrades.

What are the **real** benefits of 4.39 cf. 4.02?

[Stuart]

In article <53499541...@mdharding.org.uk>,

M Harding <ris...@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:
> Version 4.02 (1999) also happens to be the one supplied within
> SA-VRPC . . . But when you want to keep 2 SA-VRPC computers
> compatible with a Kinetic (as I do), and they work, there's not much
> incentive to mend something that's working well!

My Kinetic here is 4.39 (adjust) ROMs and so is my VA.

--
Stuart Winsor

Midlands RISC OS and Raspberry pi show, 13th July 2013

http://www.mug.riscos.org/show13/MUGshow.html

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <53499541...@mdharding.org.uk>, M Harding
<ris...@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:

> In article <mpro.mmkr7p000i...@mw-software.com>, Martin
> Wuerthner <spam...@mw-software.com> wrote:
> > Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:


> Version 4.02 (1999) also happens to be the one supplied within SA-VRPC .
> . . But when you want to keep 2 SA-VRPC computers compatible with a
> Kinetic (as I do), and they work, there's not much incentive to mend
> something that's working well!

FWIW 4.02 is also what I tend to use with RPCEmu since for me one of the
points of using RPCEmu is to have something that runs old RiscPC software.
However this is because I use it beside and ARMiniX (and before that, an
Iyonix).

So there will still be a few RO 4.02 users about for various reasons.
Although I'd agree that we can't expect that to support many more modern
developments!

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

[Dave Symes]

In article <534996e1...@walkingingermany.invalid>,

Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

> I do **hate** OS upgrades.

> What are the **real** benefits of 4.39 cf. 4.02?

Substantial.

4.02 is now so old you'd have to go the the RO Select site and read for
yerself.

Dave

--

Dave Triffid

[spampling]

In article <5349c06...@triffid.co.uk>,

and find that the link to the RO4 portion of the site doesn't work.
So, if anyone wants to download any of the support files associated with
anything other than RO6 - like the boot structure - you're out of luck.

You could go to the ROOL site and download the boot from there as it's
heading toward being a universal boot.[2]
You could download other stuff too[3]

Either Aaron has "stuff it and stuff them" to everyone except RO6 owners[1]
or there is a cock up with the site that hasn't been corrected for a number
of weeks.

[1] It also looks like you will also need the registration details to
download things...

[2] Obviously it's also a development thing so there may be a quirk or two.

[3] Downloading a soft boot copy of RO5.19 for RPC for those running
software that was compiled sometime in recent years.

--

Steve Pampling

[David Holden]

On 11-May-2013, spampling <spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:

> Either Aaron has "stuff it and stuff them" to everyone except RO6

> owners or there is a cock up with the site that hasn't been

> corrected
> for a number of weeks.

As has been said here and elsewhere the site is being completely
re-designed, mainly because people had repeatedly complained that it
was difficult to find things.

Unfortunately this had proven much more difficult than originally
thought and is taking a lot longer. I understand that there was around
200GB of material, much of it obsolete and/or unlinked and this all
had to be sifted through. However the main parts of the site are now
being tested and so it should be up and running in a week or so.

The eventual aim is to make most of the resources previously only
accessible to Select or Foundation subscribers available to everyone.

--
David Holden - APDL - www.apdl.co.uk

[Dave Symes]

In article <534a0b7f18...@btinternet.com>,
spampling <spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:
[Snippy]

> [3] Downloading a soft boot copy of RO5.19 for RPC for those running
> software that was compiled sometime in recent years.

If it was recent...
But...
Considering the OP is using 4.02... and end up with a lot of apps that
won't work with the ROOL OS variant.

Even ol' Davy who tries to keep everying up-to-date, has retro RO apps
that he *needs* that will not run on ROOL versions.
One that rushes into view is Eureka, the bulk of my business is
run/organised/bookkeeping/accounts etc, by Eureka.

Dave

--

Dave Triffid

[Dave Symes]

In article <av6ej6...@mid.individual.net>,

Excellent!
Thanks, some of us still appreciate this side of the OS...

Dave

--

Dave Triffid

[Chris Hughes]

In message <534a0b7f18...@btinternet.com>

spampling <spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:

> In article <5349c06...@triffid.co.uk>,
> Dave Symes <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
>> In article <534996e1...@walkingingermany.invalid>,
>> Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

>>> I do **hate** OS upgrades.

>>> What are the **real** benefits of 4.39 cf. 4.02?

>> Substantial.

>> 4.02 is now so old you'd have to go the the RO Select site and read for
>> yerself.

> and find that the link to the RO4 portion of the site doesn't work.
> So, if anyone wants to download any of the support files associated with
> anything other than RO6 - like the boot structure - you're out of luck.

Partly wrong!

http://www.e-junkie.com/43789/tag/9746/tag.php

Took me less then 1 min to find it!

Which is accessed from the main home page under Sales, which then
explains for downloads goto the shop webpage or for physical products
contacts APDL, who are now the official distributor, on behalf of 3QD.

Also on the home page is a big box that says "RISC OS 4 ROMS" and this
takes you also to the shop part of the site. The ROMS comes with the
necessary support CD/files.

The softload version of 4.39 is also available through the same route.



--
Chris Hughes

[M Harding]

In article <534a0b7f18...@btinternet.com>,
spampling <spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:

> In article <5349c06...@triffid.co.uk>,
> Dave Symes <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <534996e1...@walkingingermany.invalid>,
> > Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

> > > I do **hate** OS upgrades.

> > > What are the **real** benefits of 4.39 cf. 4.02?

> > Substantial.

> > 4.02 is now so old you'd have to go the the RO Select site and
> > read for yerself.

> and find that the link to the RO4 portion of the site doesn't work.
> So, if anyone wants to download any of the support files associated
> with anything other than RO6 - like the boot structure - you're out
> of luck.

> You could go to the ROOL site and download the boot from there as
> it's heading toward being a universal boot.[2] You could download
> other stuff too[3]

> Either Aaron has "stuff it and stuff them" to everyone

[ . . rest snipped ]

This is where I give up and am even tempted to the other side. When
my archaic v.4.02 simply works, with SA-VRPCs & Kinetic, and isn't
bust, what incentive is there to wreck the system I rely on daily?
Where does one even begin? With Aaron? With Kinetic ROMs? With
WindowsXP? Ignorance was bliss.

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <534a0b7f18...@btinternet.com>, spampling
<spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:

> In article <5349c06...@triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes
> <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article
> > <534996e1...@walkingingermany.invalid>,
> > Russell Hafter News
> > <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

> > > I do **hate** OS upgrades.

> > > What are the **real** benefits of 4.39 cf. 4.02?

> > Substantial.

Quite possibly, but are they **useful**?

One of the more annoying things about going from 3.70 to
4.02 was that a lot of perfectly familar icons changed, for
no good reason at all.

Presumably a fair number of person hours went into
redesigning them, for no use whatsover.

I softload the 3.5+ icons and know what they mean.

This could be regarded as a 'substantial' change, but also a
'useless' one.

> > 4.02 is now so old you'd have to go the the RO Select
> > site and read for yerself.

> and find that the link to the RO4 portion of the site
> doesn't work.

So, I have to ask again, apart from the fact that RO4.02 is
'ancient', what **real benefits** might I get for buying
4.39 ROMS?

Is it noticeably faster - say an order of magnitude or so?
If not, I do not see the point, TBH.

> So, if anyone wants to download any of the support files
> associated with anything other than RO6 -

Which I have no interest in.

> like the boot structure - you're out of luck.

> You could go to the ROOL site and download the boot from
> there as it's heading toward being a universal boot.[2]
> You could download other stuff too[3]

> Either Aaron has "stuff it and stuff them" to everyone
> except RO6 owners[1] or there is a cock up with the site
> that hasn't been corrected for a number of weeks.

> [1] It also looks like you will also need the
> registration details to download things...

> [2] Obviously it's also a development thing so there may
> be a quirk or two.

> [3] Downloading a soft boot copy of RO5.19 for RPC for
> those running software that was compiled sometime in
> recent years.

I have a version of RO5 running in RPCemu under Win 7.

The last piece of advice I received about that was to
downgrade it to RO4.xx.

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <534a15e8...@mdharding.org.uk>, M Harding

<ris...@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:

> This is where I give up and am even tempted to the other
> side.

No, they keep 'upgrading' their OS far more frequently, no
doubt breaking perfectly decent systems as they go.

I have heard that large organisations are much less likely
to run 'up-to-date' versions of Windows simply because what
they have keeps working, does the job, and (most) of the
users know how to make it work or them.

> When my archaic v.4.02 simply works, with SA-VRPCs &
> Kinetic, and isn't bust, what incentive is there to wreck
> the system I rely on daily?

Quite.

And I find it interesting that no one has yet listed a
single meaningful adavantage of 4.39 over 4.02!

[SG nws]

Russell Hafter News wrote:
> One of the more annoying things about going from 3.70 to 4.02 was that a
> lot of perfectly familar icons changed, for no good reason at all.

The new OS has to be seen to be new.

> Presumably a fair number of person hours went into redesigning them, for
> no use whatsover.

The new OS has to be seen to be new.

> I softload the 3.5+ icons and know what they mean.

Same here.

> This could be regarded as a 'substantial' change, but also a 'useless'
> one.

The new OS has to be seen to be new.

--
Stewart Goldwater
http://janusg.co.nr

[cfe...@freeremoveuk.com.invalid]

In message <534889e2...@walkingingermany.invalid>

Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid>
wrote:

> In article
> <mpro.mm7yr2005i...@mw-software.com>, Martin
> Wuerthner <spam...@mw-software.com> wrote:

[snip]

>> This is the address of a module, so the "where" utility
>> will tell you which module has crashed. Can you let us
>> know please? "Where" can be found at
>> http://www.armclub.org.uk/32bit/ - save the utility file
>> wherever you want (e.g., the root directory), and after
>> the crash has occurred, open a TaskWindow and type
>> "<path>.where" (in case you put it into the root
>> directory, type "$.where").

> And this morning:

> where
> Address 039D7A58 is at offset 00005F90 in module FontManager

> I have !Fonts 1.17 (24-Jun-99).

> Is there perhaps a newer version that runs under RO 4.02
> that might solve the problem?

I have the version of the RO5 Font modules - which are in a Dir which
is placed inside (!Boot.Choices.Boot.PreDesk) - would you like a copy?


--
Colin Ferris Cornwall UK

[cfe...@freeremoveuk.com.invalid]

In message <ccf2134a...@o2.co.uk>

Chris Hughes <ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:

> In message <534a0b7f18...@btinternet.com>
> spampling <spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:

>> In article <5349c06...@triffid.co.uk>,
>> Dave Symes <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In article <534996e1...@walkingingermany.invalid>,
>>> Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

[snip]

> Which is accessed from the main home page under Sales, which then
> explains for downloads goto the shop webpage or for physical products
> contacts APDL, who are now the official distributor, on behalf of 3QD.

> Also on the home page is a big box that says "RISC OS 4 ROMS" and this
> takes you also to the shop part of the site. The ROMS comes with the
> necessary support CD/files.

> The softload version of 4.39 is also available through the same route.

Has anyone sorted out which (Long Filenames) modules are required for
RO 3.7 - (from RO5 or RO4) that can be flashed into Podules/Net cards?

ie so that later versions of the OS can be softloaded.

I presume that softload RO 4.39 can be used with RO 4.02 - without
worring about changing !Boot - so you can use either OS - as required.

Like I do between RO 4.02 and 5.19 -

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <b02b1a4a5...@cferris.freeuk.com>,

<cfe...@freeRemoveuk.com.invalid> wrote:

> > Is there perhaps a newer version that runs under RO
> > 4.02 that might solve the problem?

> I have the version of the RO5 Font modules - which are in
> a Dir which is placed inside (!Boot.Choices.Boot.PreDesk)
> - would you like a copy?

Thanks for the offer.

You will have seen Martin W�rthner's comment that the more
likely cause is something in the font itself, so I have
re-installed the font.

If there are no further crashes, then I shall be happy with
what I have.

FWIW I produced a PDF from EW yesterday with no problems at
all, which is promiing, as I had problems with PDFs before I
had them with printing.

We shall see.

[Chris Newman]

In article <534a17ed...@walkingingermany.invalid>,

Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

> In article <534a15e8...@mdharding.org.uk>, M Harding
> <ris...@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:

> > This is where I give up and am even tempted to the other
> > side.

> No, they keep 'upgrading' their OS far more frequently, no
> doubt breaking perfectly decent systems as they go.

> I have heard that large organisations are much less likely
> to run 'up-to-date' versions of Windows simply because what
> they have keeps working, does the job, and (most) of the
> users know how to make it work or them.

Absolutely. I'm setting up a Windows 8 m/c for a relative. Ugh!!! what a
nightmare.

> > When my archaic v.4.02 simply works, with SA-VRPCs &
> > Kinetic, and isn't bust, what incentive is there to wreck
> > the system I rely on daily?

> Quite.

> And I find it interesting that no one has yet listed a
> single meaningful adavantage of 4.39 over 4.02!

I use VARPC 4.02 on the laptop & 4.39 on my RiscPC. The only thing I really
miss on 4.02 is the enhanced version of !Paint whch comes with 4.39. Is there
a way of upgrading my !Paint on 4.02?

Cheers,

--
Chris Newman

[cfe...@freeremoveuk.com.invalid]

In message <534a1fb6...@waitrose.com>

Chris Newman <cvj...@waitrose.com> wrote:

> In article <534a17ed...@walkingingermany.invalid>,
> Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:
>> In article <534a15e8...@mdharding.org.uk>, M Harding
>> <ris...@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:

[snip]

>> And I find it interesting that no one has yet listed a
>> single meaningful adavantage of 4.39 over 4.02!

> I use VARPC 4.02 on the laptop & 4.39 on my RiscPC. The only thing I really
> miss on 4.02 is the enhanced version of !Paint whch comes with 4.39. Is there
> a way of upgrading my !Paint on 4.02?

You could try saving off !Paint from 4.39 - and trying it on RO 4.02.

Best bet would be running RO 4.39 softload - with VRPC.

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <534a15db...@walkingingermany.invalid>, Russell Hafter

News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:
> In article <534a0b7f18...@btinternet.com>, spampling
> <spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > In article <5349c06...@triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes
> > <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
> > > In article <534996e1...@walkingingermany.invalid>, Russell
>

> > > > What are the **real** benefits of 4.39 cf. 4.02?

> > > Substantial.

> Quite possibly, but are they **useful**?

More to the point, perhaps just the isolated word "Substantial" is a
sweeping assertion/opinion, not a detailed explanation or even a list.

> One of the more annoying things about going from 3.70 to 4.02 was that a
> lot of perfectly familar icons changed, for no good reason at all.

Having just started using RO 5.19 I noticed the - to me, new-fangled - way
the filer can now pick up control key combinations and act on them. I
*don't* really want this. But haven't yet found a way to switch it off. So
what some may regard as an 'improvement' others might find useless or a
pest.

Matter of cases, though. The reverse is true with me currently trying to
use GIMP. There my problem is finding the key combinations for some of the
operations I need to do fairly often. Ended up buying a (quite useful) book
on GIMP.

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <534a1fb6...@waitrose.com>, Chris Newman

<cvj...@waitrose.com> wrote:

> > > When my archaic v.4.02 simply works, with SA-VRPCs &
> > > Kinetic, and isn't bust, what incentive is there to
> > > wreck the system I rely on daily?

> > Quite.

> > And I find it interesting that no one has yet listed a
> > single meaningful adavantage of 4.39 over 4.02!

> I use VARPC 4.02 on the laptop & 4.39 on my RiscPC. The
> only thing I really miss on 4.02 is the enhanced version
> of !Paint whch comes with 4.39. Is there a way of
> upgrading my !Paint on 4.02?

Thank you Chris.

As a vary infrequent user of !Paint, that seems like a good
reason to stick with 4.02.

[David Holden]

On 11-May-2013, Chris Newman <cvj...@waitrose.com> wrote:

> I use VARPC 4.02 on the laptop & 4.39 on my RiscPC. The only thing I
> really miss on 4.02 is the enhanced version of !Paint whch comes
> with
> 4.39. Is there a way of upgrading my !Paint on 4.02?

No. The later version of !Paint is integrated with the Image Converter
so won't work with earlier OS versions.

[John]

In article <534a0b7f18...@btinternet.com>, spampling
<spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:

<snip>

> Either Aaron has "stuff it and stuff them" to everyone
> except RO6 owners[1] or there is a cock up with the site
> that hasn't been corrected for a number of weeks.

<snip>

I believe I'm right in saying that Aaron has made it his
intention to sort out the entire site and make it available
again once he has finished. Until then, the site is
unreliable.

John

--
John
new...@blueyonder.co.uk
j dot mccartney atte blueyonder dot co dot uk

[spampling]

In article <534a17ed...@walkingingermany.invalid>,

Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

> And I find it interesting that no one has yet listed a
> single meaningful adavantage of 4.39 over 4.02!

There was (but as DH points out it isn't *currently* accessible) a set of
information about differences between the 4.02 and Select streams and the
incremental changes.
Whether people personally see these as advantages seems to vary. A quick
trawl back through the news archive will always produce two opposing views
for each difference.

--

Steve Pampling

[spampling]

In article <av6ej6...@mid.individual.net>,
David Holden <spa...@apdl.co.uk> wrote:

> On 11-May-2013, spampling <spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:

> > Either Aaron has "stuff it and stuff them" to everyone except RO6
> > owners or there is a cock up with the site that hasn't been
> > corrected
> > for a number of weeks.

> As has been said here and elsewhere the site is being completely
> re-designed, mainly because people had repeatedly complained that it
> was difficult to find things.

Good news, however if you reference my other comments regarding the boot
availability you might (possibly, I'm a bit obtuse at times) gather that I
assumed that the universal boot responsibility was being passed to ROOL
where the development is happening.
I had wondered whether a portion of the old feud was still active. Possibly
resting in peace?

[Snip]

> The eventual aim is to make most of the resources previously only
> accessible to Select or Foundation subscribers available to everyone.

From memory most of the Select and Foundation stuff had actually been
accessible, even to non-subscribers, at various times previously.
Whether that was a mistake by DM (and workers) or not I don't know.

--

Steve Pampling

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <mpro.mmmxz4...@ypical.nospam.invalid>, Fred Bambrough
<fred@[127.0.0.1]> wrote:
> There's some grumbling old men here who give grumbling old men a bad
> reputation.

Wonderfully positive contribution. Nice example of grumbling about
grumbling. :-)

However my experience of engineering in general is that new ideas tend to
lead to improvement - as distinct from simply change - when based on an
appreciation of what earlier designs lacked or did less well that we might
wish. And that critical feedback, even when uncomfortable, helps engineers
and designers to correct their ideas on what genuinely constitutes an
improvement.

And in some cases old designs can continue to work well for some people and
some tasks. All depends on the person and the task. Different people have
differing preferences and requirements, even if you or I don't share them.

Personally I'm happy to use Linux, and R4.02 RPCEmu on that, alongside an
ARMiniX running 5.19. I don't see any of them as a 'replacement' for any of
the others. And as an engineer I'd be wary of dismissing potential users of
anything I made as 'grumbling old men' simply because they didn't like
something I'd produced. Doesn't seem to me to be a good approach to blame
your (potential) customers for failing to deliver what they wanted.

[Jim Nagel]

Russell Hafter News wrote on 10 May:

> What are the **real** benefits of 4.39 cf. 4.02?

See substantial list here:
http://www.drobe.co.uk/riscos/artifact1522,3.html
(an excellent reference piece by Chris Williams)

and here:
http://www.riscos.com/adjust/AdjustROMchanges.htm

The downloadable upgrade from 4.02 to 4.39 (for real or virtual
machines) can be had for �20:
http://www.e-junkie.com/43789/product/58705.php
(This is the online store of Riscos-Ltd-as-was.)

Or can be bought as a CD from APDL, or as roms from APDL.

I don't recall great trauma in moving from 4.02 to 4.39 on my RiscPC
and certainly get reminded of 4.39's improvements whenever I
occasionally have to use 4.02 on somebody else's machine.

See Archive articles in 17:11, 18:4, 19:2, 19:4 (Ray Favre) and 20:9.

Personally, I think 4.39 should be the baseline for everybody, to make
life a bit simpler for developers.


--
Jim Nagel www.archivemag.co.uk
>> "from" address is genuine but will change. website has current one.

[Dave Symes]

In article <534a17ed...@walkingingermany.invalid>,

Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

[Snippy]

> And I find it interesting that no one has yet listed a
> single meaningful adavantage of 4.39 over 4.02!

A single meaningful advantage is 4.39 is a few versions developed on the
basic 4.02.
This is now all so old it would be difficult and time consuming to attempt
a write up, so you'll have to take it (or not) from someone who has
installed and used all the 4.02 and on versions up to and including 4.39,
then on to all the 6.nn versions, Substantially improved, advanced.

To be honest Russell, even if someone had the time to get it all together
and write it up, they'd be wasting valuable time, as it appears from out
here your computing feet are set in the past 4.02 concrete regardless.

I'm sure if you wait a bit one of two things will be happening...

1) Your RO computer will fail fatally, and it won't matter one way or the
other. (I'm not wishing that upon you, just commenting about our ancient
machines). [Every morning when I cold boot this 18 year old SARPC I half
expect it to fail].

2) In a while, when Aaron has finished his work, and the above hasn't
happened, you'll be able to download all the change files and read them
all for your self.

Dave

--

Dave Triffid

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <2890434...@nails.abbeypress.net>,

Jim Nagel <jimne...@abbeypress.co.uk> wrote:
> Russell Hafter News wrote on 10 May:

> > What are the **real** benefits of 4.39 cf. 4.02?

> See substantial list here:
> http://www.drobe.co.uk/riscos/artifact1522,3.html
> (an excellent reference piece by Chris Williams)

Thanks for the reference, Jim, but that is a list of
*everything* that 4.39 can do. IIRC a fair amount of what is
there was in 3.10!

It does not say "this is what you could do, that you could
not do before, if you were to upgrade from 4.02 to 4.39".

The only thing that I can see after over 5 minutes looking
at that page that might just possibly be useful is USB
support, but of course, to use that I would need extra
hardware too...

Sorry.

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <534a429...@triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes

<da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <534a17ed...@walkingingermany.invalid>,
> Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid>
> wrote: [Snippy]

> > And I find it interesting that no one has yet listed a
> > single meaningful adavantage of 4.39 over 4.02!

> A single meaningful advantage is 4.39 is a few versions
> developed on the basic 4.02.

[Snip]

> To be honest Russell, even if someone had the time to get
> it all together and write it up, they'd be wasting
> valuable time, as it appears from out here your computing
> feet are set in the past 4.02 concrete regardless.

OK. Could you perhaps mention three really significant
things that 4.39 can do that 4.02 cannot? Three things that
you really, really, would miss if you had to go back to
4.02?

> I'm sure if you wait a bit one of two things will be
> happening...

> 1) Your RO computer will fail fatally, and it won't
> matter one way or the other. (I'm not wishing that upon
> you, just commenting about our ancient machines). [Every
> morning when I cold boot this 18 year old SARPC I half
> expect it to fail].

Hopefully, they will not all die at once!

So far, touching my wooden desk, the only thing I have ever
had fail on an RO machine is the power supply.

[Dave Higton]

In message <534a17ed...@walkingingermany.invalid>

Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

>And I find it interesting that no one has yet listed a
>single meaningful adavantage of 4.39 over 4.02!

That's a big ask on your part. Those of us who upgraded, did so so
long ago that we can't remember. We just took it for granted, and
have done so ever since.

I upgraded my Risc PC at work from 4.02 to 4.39. It was a painless
process. I do have some distant memory that one of the selling
points of 4.39 was improved stability.

Dave

[Matthew Phillips]

In message <2890434...@nails.abbeypress.net>

on 11 May 2013 Jim Nagel wrote:

> Personally, I think 4.39 should be the baseline for everybody, to make
> life a bit simpler for developers.

But as most of the API features which have been added to 4.39 are unavailable
to users of RISC OS 5, I don't think there are many developers who would want
to treat 4.39 as a baseline.

On the other hand, 4.02 works as a good baseline for both forks of the
operating system, even if RISC OS 5 was not developed from the RISC OS 4
sources but from a near common ancestor.

--
Matthew Phillips
Durham

[M Harding]

In article <3c9a1b4a5...@cferris.freeuk.com>,

Now that's helpful. I'm not agin updating - just against losing the
use of a tool I utterly rely upon daily.

So presumably I could try switching to 4.39 on the (least-used,
backup) W-7 laptop with SA-VRPC and see if that works OK, before
trying the same with the W-XP computer and finally the Kinetic?

[Matthew Phillips]

In message <036f4e4a5...@my.inbox.com>

on 11 May 2013 Dave Higton wrote:

> In message <534a17ed...@walkingingermany.invalid>
> Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:
>
> >And I find it interesting that no one has yet listed a
> >single meaningful adavantage of 4.39 over 4.02!
>
> That's a big ask on your part. Those of us who upgraded, did so so
> long ago that we can't remember. We just took it for granted, and
> have done so ever since.

OK, here are some that I am aware of:

1) operating system support for image file conversion, meaning that (among
other things) that Paint can load and edit JPEGs, GIFs, PNGs etc. and
presumably save them.

2) keyboard short-cuts for the Filer

3) thumbnails can be shown instead of file icons for image files in the
Filer.

4) writable icons (in almost all applications) can have the text selected by
multiple-clicking or dragging, and support copy/paste via the global
clipboard (Ctrl-X, Ctrl-V, Ctrl-C).

5) alpha-transparency in sprites, meaning that pixels do not have to be
totally opaque or totally transparent but 254 degrees of variation in
between.

--
Matthew Phillips
Durham

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <0493504a5...@sinenomine.freeserve.co.uk>,
Matthew Phillips <spam...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote

> In message <036f4e4a5...@my.inbox.com> on 11 May
> 2013 Dave Higton wrote:

> > In message <534a17ed...@walkingingermany.invalid>
> > Russell Hafter News
> > <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

> > >And I find it interesting that no one has yet listed a
> > >single meaningful adavantage of 4.39 over 4.02!

> > That's a big ask on your part. Those of us who
> > upgraded, did so so long ago that we can't remember.
> > We just took it for granted, and have done so ever
> > since.

> OK, here are some that I am aware of:

> 1) operating system support for image file conversion,
> meaning that (among other things) that Paint can load and
> edit JPEGs, GIFs, PNGs etc. and presumably save them.

Thanks, I can certainly see the value in that, for those
that do that sort of thing.

I have done it very occasionally in the past, using an
ancient (much older than 4.02) Windows app.

But I doubt if it is something I would much want to do in
the future.

> 2) keyboard short-cuts for the Filer

Why?? Definitely NOT something I would want to use.

> 3) thumbnails can be shown instead of file icons for
> image files in the Filer.

Aarghhhh! A pet hate, unfortunately.

> 4) writable icons (in almost all applications) can have
> the text selected by multiple-clicking or dragging, and
> support copy/paste via the global clipboard (Ctrl-X,
> Ctrl-V, Ctrl-C).

Yes, very useful, I would think.

> 5) alpha-transparency in sprites, meaning that pixels do
> not have to be totally opaque or totally transparent but
> 254 degrees of variation in between.

And I would imagine that this is very useful to those who
play around with sprite files.

But this is not something that I have ever wanted to do,
myself.

So, while I can see that those could all be useful
improvements for some (even, perhaps, many?), there is only
one thing there that is a useful improvemnt from my,
personal, point of view.

Thanks, Matthew, for taking the time to draw up that list.

[Tim Hill]

In article <534a5226...@walkingingermany.invalid>, Russell Hafter

News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:
> In article <0493504a5...@sinenomine.freeserve.co.uk>, Matthew
> Phillips <spam...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote

> > In message <036f4e4a5...@my.inbox.com> on 11 May 2013 Dave
> > Higton wrote:

> > > In message <534a17ed...@walkingingermany.invalid> Russell
> > > Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

[Snip]

> > 1) operating system support for image file conversion, meaning that
> > (among other things) that Paint can load and edit JPEGs, GIFs, PNGs
> > etc. and presumably save them.

> Thanks, I can certainly see the value in that, for those that do that
> sort of thing.

What? You never manipulate or edit images? The ability to create PNGs
with multiple levels of transparency should be a godsend to many.

> I have done it very occasionally in the past, using an ancient (much
> older than 4.02) Windows app.

Sounds painful.

> But I doubt if it is something I would much want to do in the future.

> > 2) keyboard short-cuts for the Filer

> Why?? Definitely NOT something I would want to use.

Some people do and there is value perhaps. Some may argue it's too
windows-like but what with <Ctrl> key editing combinations mentioned
below for writable icons, it won't take long for the left hand to be
adept at <Ctrl>+Z|X|C|V while the right pushes the mouse. Extending those
keys to every editable window /including the filer/ is a logical
extension. As I do use a windoze box alongside Myonix I have become
accustomed to that ability and find myself wondering why I can't do it in
RISC OS.

> > 3) thumbnails can be shown instead of file icons for image files in
> > the Filer.

> Aarghhhh! A pet hate, unfortunately.

I can understand that being a pet hate for a RiscPC user. It's slow.

On an iyonix (Photofiler can do this) visual thumbnails are essential for
the shed-load of photos which digital cameras like to shove in one
folder, sometimes with only numeric filenames. With Photofiler, opening a
folder with added <Ctrl> will suppress thumbnailing for those times you
don't want it. http://www.davespace.co.uk/risc.os/photofiler.html

> > 4) writable icons (in almost all applications) can have the text
> > selected by multiple-clicking or dragging, and support copy/paste via
> > the global clipboard (Ctrl-X, Ctrl-V, Ctrl-C).

> Yes, very useful, I would think.

IcnClipBrd can provide most of this functionality and more.
http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/software/clipboard/



[Snip]

> there is only one thing there that is a
> useful improvemnt from my, personal, point of view.

..and you could have that without changing your OS assuming it works okay
with 4.02

--
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Share in a better energy supplier: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg
* Share in cheaper ethical telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/

[Chris Newman]

In article <0a3a224a5...@cferris.freeuk.com>,

<cfe...@freeRemoveuk.com.invalid> wrote:
> In message <534a1fb6...@waitrose.com>
> Chris Newman <cvj...@waitrose.com> wrote:

> > In article <534a17ed...@walkingingermany.invalid>,
> > Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:
> >> In article <534a15e8...@mdharding.org.uk>, M Harding
> >> <ris...@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:

> [snip]

> >> And I find it interesting that no one has yet listed a
> >> single meaningful adavantage of 4.39 over 4.02!

> > I use VARPC 4.02 on the laptop & 4.39 on my RiscPC. The only thing I really
> > miss on 4.02 is the enhanced version of !Paint whch comes with 4.39. Is there
> > a way of upgrading my !Paint on 4.02?

> You could try saving off !Paint from 4.39 - and trying it on RO 4.02.

Tried that. Doesn't work.

> Best bet would be running RO 4.39 softload - with VRPC.

--

Chris Newman

[David Holden]

On 11-May-2013, M Harding <ris...@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:

> Now that's helpful. I'm not agin updating - just against losing the
> use of a tool I utterly rely upon daily.
>
> So presumably I could try switching to 4.39 on the (least-used,
> backup) W-7 laptop with SA-VRPC and see if that works OK, before
> trying the same with the W-XP computer and finally the Kinetic?

One of the products that will be appearing soon is a new softloaded RO
4.39 which people can use to upgrade their 4.02/4.03 without needing
to replace the ROMs and with the additional advantage that it's
possible to revert to 4.02 if required. This will be available both as
a CD or a download.

This will work with VRPC but you would lose the '8MB VRAM' feature. To
get this on VRPC you need to upgrade to the 'Adjust' version.

[spampling]

In article <534a5e10...@waitrose.com>,

Chris Newman <cvj...@waitrose.com> wrote:
> > You could try saving off !Paint from 4.39 - and trying it on RO 4.02.

> Tried that. Doesn't work.

If it is a graphics item in the OS build then it is unlikely to work
without the Select OS.
If you read the RISC OS Rambles that Justin Fletcher has on his site[1] you
will understand the underlying work he did and why the two work together
and not stand alone.

[1] He spent ages typing that lot and people aren't reading it, why?

--

Steve Pampling

[spampling]

In article <534a4e15...@walkingingermany.invalid>,

Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:
> OK. Could you perhaps mention three really significant
> things that 4.39 can do that 4.02 cannot? Three things that
> you really, really, would miss if you had to go back to
> 4.02?

Someone is bound to mention DHCP. (OK, I just did, but I don't have 4.39)

--

Steve Pampling

[spampling]

In article <534a429...@triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes <da...@triffid.co.uk>
wrote:

> This is now all so old it would be difficult and time consuming to
> attempt a write up,

But Justin Fletcher has done - with a heavy slant toward the reasons for
the changes.

--

Steve Pampling

[spampling]

In article <534a5226...@walkingingermany.invalid>,

Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:
> > 1) operating system support for image file conversion,
> > meaning that (among other things) that Paint can load and
> > edit JPEGs, GIFs, PNGs etc. and presumably save them.

> Thanks, I can certainly see the value in that, for those
> that do that sort of thing.

> I have done it very occasionally in the past, using an
> ancient (much older than 4.02) Windows app.

> But I doubt if it is something I would much want to do in
> the future.

If you aren't interested in the graphics element many of the changes are of
no interest.

> > 2) keyboard short-cuts for the Filer

> Why?? Definitely NOT something I would want to use.

Never had a broken mouse? Never tried to work one handed?
This interconnects with item 4 (global clipboard etc)
BTW. I believe the behaviour of Ctrl-X etc differs from the old (or is that
Ye Olde) Acorn behaviour and some people whinge about the change.

--

Steve Pampling

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <534a915f90...@btinternet.com>, spampling

Yes, I saw that. Did not really understand it though.

I thought that it was something in the router, not
individual machines?

Or is this to do with automatically assigned IP addresses on
the LAN?

And if so, is there really any advantage?

No doubt someone will correct me.

[Brian Jordan]

In article <534a90ff07...@btinternet.com>,
spampling <spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:

[Snip]

> If you read the RISC OS Rambles that Justin Fletcher has on his site[1]
> you will understand the underlying work he did and why the two work
> together and not stand alone.

> [1] He spent ages typing that lot and people aren't reading it, why?

I, for one, was unaware of its existence. Now I am and it has been
bookmarked here.

--
_____________________________________________________________________

Brian Jordan
Virtual RPC-AdjustSA on Windows 8
RISC OS 6.20
_____________________________________________________________________

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <534a5d...@invalid.org.uk>, Tim Hill

<t...@invalid.org.uk> wrote:
> In article <534a5226...@walkingingermany.invalid>,
> Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid>
> wrote:
> > In article
> > <0493504a5...@sinenomine.freeserve.co.uk>,
> > Matthew Phillips <spam...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote

> > > In message <036f4e4a5...@my.inbox.com> on 11
> > > May 2013 Dave Higton wrote:

> > > > In message <534a17ed...@walkingingermany.invalid>
> > > > Russell Hafter News
> > > > <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

> [Snip]

> > > 1) operating system support for image file
> > > conversion, meaning that (among other things) that
> > > Paint can load and edit JPEGs, GIFs, PNGs etc. and
> > > presumably save them.

> > Thanks, I can certainly see the value in that, for
> > those that do that sort of thing.

> What? You never manipulate or edit images? The ability to
> create PNGs with multiple levels of transparency should
> be a godsend to many.

Very, very seldom. I doubt if I have done any at all in the
last four months, probably longer. I do not have a digital
camera, and have no plans to get one.

I did do a bit of manipulation for pictures on my business
websites, but at present I am getting all the business that
I can cope with, so I have no need to change any of that.

> > I have done it very occasionally in the past, using an
> > ancient (much older than 4.02) Windows app.

> Sounds painful.

Not really. It was mainly a matter of loading a 13MB TIFF,
reducing its size and saving it out as a 100kB JPEG. Took
less than a minute fer picture.

> > But I doubt if it is something I would much want to do
> > in the future.

> > > 2) keyboard short-cuts for the Filer

> > Why?? Definitely NOT something I would want to use.

> Some people do and there is value perhaps. Some may argue
> it's too windows-like

I know that windows has keyboard short-cuts, but I have no
idea what they are. I find mouse easier and more natural.

AFAIK I have had this for years. But perhaps I am doing
somehing wrong as I do not get the functionality in writable
icons.

> [Snip]

> > there is only one thing there that is a useful
> > improvemnt from my, personal, point of view.

> ..and you could have that without changing your OS
> assuming it works okay with 4.02

--

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <534a91ed3f...@btinternet.com>, spampling

<spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:

> > Why?? Definitely NOT something I would want to use.

> Never had a broken mouse?

That is what spare mouses are for.

> Never tried to work one handed?

Fortunately, no.

> This interconnects with item 4 (global clipboard etc)
> BTW. I believe the behaviour of Ctrl-X etc differs from
> the old (or is that Ye Olde) Acorn behaviour and some
> people whinge about the change.

Yes, I would like to have a version of !Edit where
copy/paste woked the same as everywhere else.

[Tony Moore]

On 12 May 2013, spampling <spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:

[snip]

> If you read the RISC OS Rambles that Justin Fletcher has on his
> site[1] you will understand the underlying work he did and why the two
> work together and not stand alone.
>
> [1] He spent ages typing that lot and people aren't reading it, why?

Perhaps they don't know the url? http://gerph.org/riscos/

Tony

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <534a5d...@invalid.org.uk>, Tim Hill <t...@invalid.org.uk>
wrote:

> In article <534a5226...@walkingingermany.invalid>, Russell Hafter
> News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:
> > In article <0493504a5...@sinenomine.freeserve.co.uk>, Matthew
> > Phillips <spam...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote

> > > In message <036f4e4a5...@my.inbox.com> on 11 May 2013 Dave
> > > Higton wrote:

> > > > In message <534a17ed...@walkingingermany.invalid> Russell
> > > > Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

> [Snip]

> > > 1) operating system support for image file conversion, meaning that
> > > (among other things) that Paint can load and edit JPEGs, GIFs, PNGs
> > > etc. and presumably save them.

> > Thanks, I can certainly see the value in that, for those that do that
> > sort of thing.

> What? You never manipulate or edit images? The ability to create PNGs
> with multiple levels of transparency should be a godsend to many.

True enough. But do we have to assume the user must use !Paint for such
purposes? The facility is potentially useful. But I for one would already
be using Compo and TheAppPreviouslyKnownAsImageMaster along with
ArtWorks, anyway.

> > > 2) keyboard short-cuts for the Filer

> > Why?? Definitely NOT something I would want to use.

> Some people do and there is value perhaps.

My main argument with it is - in RO 5.19 - I don't know how to switch it
*off*! I find it as annoying as the habit of some filers elsewhere of
dropping files into a directory if you - without meaning to - drop
something onto a directory icon. Can be a real PITA.

> > > 3) thumbnails can be shown instead of file icons for image files in
> > > the Filer.

> > Aarghhhh! A pet hate, unfortunately.

> I can understand that being a pet hate for a RiscPC user. It's slow.

> On an iyonix (Photofiler can do this) visual thumbnails are essential
> for the shed-load of photos which digital cameras like to shove in one
> folder, sometimes with only numeric filenames.

As with the above, I can see that some will like it. However I just use
!Variations and don't want it to happen *unless* I choose for a specific
task.

Good to see some specifics at last. No doubt some will be attracted by
them. Buy what has been listed doesn't prompt me to want to move from 4.02
on RPCEmu. More likely to try 5.XX...

The real challenge here to me seems to be the aim and task of
re-integrating the two branches so both users and developers have just one
target. Once that is done I suspect life will get much easier for most of
us... maybe even for those working on HALs for new hardware! And it would
become more sensible for almost everyone to move to the new common
standard version of RO.

As it is, it can make more sense to run different versions on different
boxes if you have requirements that benefit from that due to the
incompatabilities and 'legacy software' problems.

BTW I've still had no reply/response to my email to the author of RiScript
asking either for them to look at fixing it's failing to work on 5.18 up,
or making it open source. Given the history of RO and its applications we
should perhaps have more of a focus seeing if we can clear up the problems
of old software some rely upon being able to only run on old OS versions.

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <av8n8m...@mid.individual.net>, David Holden

<ahem> What might the chance be that this will work on RPCEmu... keeping
its ability to have a lot of VRAM? ;->

[cfe...@freeremoveuk.com.invalid]

In message <534a9895...@walkingingermany.invalid>

Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid>
wrote:

> In article <534a91ed3f...@btinternet.com>, spampling
> <spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:

[snip]

>> This interconnects with item 4 (global clipboard etc)
>> BTW. I believe the behaviour of Ctrl-X etc differs from
>> the old (or is that Ye Olde) Acorn behaviour and some
>> people whinge about the change.

> Yes, I would like to have a version of !Edit where
> copy/paste woked the same as everywhere else.

You could try out the recent version of !Edit from ROOL.

Find out which version does what you want.

Some people like the change to - Windows way - and some don't.

--
Colin Ferris Cornwall UK

[M Harding]

In article <6746994a53.old_coaster@old_coaster.yahoo.co.uk>,

Great new discovery, hotlisted! Thanks.

[Brian Bailey]

> [Snip]

> > If you read the RISC OS Rambles that Justin Fletcher has on his site[1]
> > you will understand the underlying work he did and why the two work
> > together and not stand alone.

> > [1] He spent ages typing that lot and people aren't reading it, why?

> I, for one, was unaware of its existence. Now I am and it has been
> bookmarked here.

First I've heard of it. Totally unaware of its existence, too.

[Jim Nagel]

Russell Hafter News wrote on 12 May:

> Yes, I would like to have a version of !Edit where

> copy/paste worked the same as everywhere else.

Ah, now that's the thing that 4.39 brought and is the big improvement
I miss most when I occasional have to use 4.02. (Or Ro 5, come to
that.)

Somebody disparagingly called this a "Windows way", but it isn't --
most other Ro applications consistently use Ctrl-X|C|V in the standard
way (Impression, Ovation, Fireworkz, etc etc); the old Edit way is the
odd one out.

Another 4.39 improvement I miss is cut-and-paste to and from (dreadful
name) "writable icons".

--
Jim Nagel www.archivemag.co.uk
>> "from" address is genuine but will change. website has current one.

[Jim Nagel]

spampling wrote on 12 May:
> He [Justin Fletcher] spent ages typing that lot and people aren't
> reading it, why?

They haven't read Archive 23:6 news page 9?
It's a section complete with mugshot of Justin Fletcher, at end of
news item about Virtual Acorn taking over the assets of the erstwhile
Riscos Ltd.

Justin makes clear that he wrote his Riscos Rambles in order to free
himself from the trauma that the unfortunate split between the two
forks of the operating system caused him personally. He treads an
admirably fine line about the politics of the period, and does not
lapse into the bitterness that I feared when publication of the
Rambles was announced. http://gerph.org/riscos

[spampling]

In article <534aa6dc...@argonet.co.uk>, Brian Bailey

Strange - I could have sworn it was advertised/promoted by various of the
Acorn/RISC OS blogs etc as well as being mentioned by Justin in the
c.s.a.* groups.

--

Steve Pampling

[spampling]

In article <534a979f...@walkingingermany.invalid>,

Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:
> In article <534a915f90...@btinternet.com>, spampling
> <spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:

> > In article <534a4e15...@walkingingermany.invalid>,
> > Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid>
> > wrote:

> > > OK. Could you perhaps mention three really significant
> > > things that 4.39 can do that 4.02 cannot? Three things
> > > that you really, really, would miss if you had to go
> > > back to 4.02?

> > Someone is bound to mention DHCP. (OK, I just did, but I
> > don't have 4.39)

> Yes, I saw that. Did not really understand it though.

> I thought that it was something in the router, not
> individual machines?

> Or is this to do with automatically assigned IP addresses on
> the LAN?

That's the one.

> And if so, is there really any advantage?

Much less fiddling when moving from one LAN to another, much less fiddling
when identifying a new printer etc when the router does an integrated
DNS/DHCP functionality.

> No doubt someone will correct me.

Not a correction, just pointer in how to look up the functionality and the
usefulness.

--

Steve Pampling

[spampling]

In article <534a96b...@audiomisc.co.uk>,

Jim Lesurf <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
> My main argument with it is - in RO 5.19 - I don't know how to switch it
> *off*!

I thought your issue was with the change to the specific action performed
by Ctrl-X and Ctrl-V - i.e. something that matches what the rest of the
computing world does rather than what Acorn did a few decades ago.

--

Steve Pampling

[spampling]

In article <e0439a4a5...@cferris.freeuk.com>,

<cfe...@freeRemoveuk.com.invalid> wrote:
> Some people like the change to - Windows way - and some don't.

Some like the change to the way everyone else does it - it isn't peculiar
to Windows

--

Steve Pampling

[spampling]

In article <ce74ac4...@nails.abbeypress.net>,

Jim Nagel <jimne...@abbeypress.co.uk> wrote:
> He treads an
> admirably fine line about the politics of the period, and does not
> lapse into the bitterness that I feared when publication of the
> Rambles was announced.

Some bits were edited from the first versions published, possibly when he
realised that some of it was slipping slightly into the areas he'd tried to
avoid.
Suffice to say neither side was painted in a particularly good light.

--

Steve Pampling

[spampling]

In article <8f14ae4...@nails.abbeypress.net>,

Jim Nagel <jimne...@abbeypress.co.uk> wrote:
> Russell Hafter News wrote on 12 May:
> > Yes, I would like to have a version of !Edit where
> > copy/paste worked the same as everywhere else.

> Ah, now that's the thing that 4.39 brought and is the big improvement
> I miss most when I occasional have to use 4.02. (Or Ro 5, come to
> that.)

Something of a ripple recently in the ROOL forums - because of the change
to the standard way. You might note a few here complaining they would like
an option to change it back...

--

Steve Pampling

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <534aac8373...@btinternet.com>, spampling

No. My problem with it is that I can find that an action I intended to be
for an editor window can occur to the items in a filer window. Or at least
a filer window grabs keystrokes I intended for an application window. Yes,
it may be 'my fault' for not watching the focus. But it is another way of
making a mistake I'd prefer to avoid and work without. I already can be
quite inventive in finding ways to get something wrong! :-)

I can see that having keystrokes for some filer actions can be useful. So
I'm not complaining that the behaviour is provided. Just that I don't want
it, and would really like to disable it. So I'd expect it to be a
switchable option via !Boot's control panel.

As I said, I also find in some (non RO system) filer windows the way a
directory can 'eat' a DnD is also sometimes a pest. Again, I can see this
may be useful at times, but can be a cause of problems as well.

So my view is that when people add 'features' like these they should also
allow for them to be options the user can de-select.

[John]

In article <534a90ff07...@btinternet.com>, spampling
<spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:

<snip>

> [1] He spent ages typing that lot and people aren't
> reading it, why?

I did - and found it all quite fascinating (even the bits I
didn't understand or have an interest in such as games).
The rationale behind all the developments was very well
explained and I would recommend the series to anyone who
hasn't seen it at http://gerph.org/riscos/index.html

John

--
John
new...@blueyonder.co.uk
j dot mccartney atte blueyonder dot co dot uk

[Tim Hill]

In article <534ab4f41a...@btinternet.com>, spampling

Can't they just run an old version of Edit? Or StrongED?

Funnily enough I don't have problem switching between StrongED on RISC OS
(which works BOTH ways) and random gubbins on Windoze. My autopilot seems
to take care of it.

--
from Tim Hill who welcomes incoming email to tim at timil dot com.
* Share in a better energy supplier: http://tjrh.eu/coopnrg
* Share in cheaper ethical telecoms: http://tjrh.eu/phone
* Have a genuine & spam-proof address for Usenet http://www.invalid.org.uk/

[Jim Nagel]

Jim Lesurf wrote on 12 May:

> I can see that having keystrokes for some filer actions can be useful. So
> I'm not complaining that the behaviour is provided. Just that I don't want
> it, and would really like to disable it. So I'd expect it to be a
> switchable option via !Boot's control panel.

In Configure Filer, you might try switching "Confirm all" on for a
while. That will wake you up when you do some keystroke
unintentionally. Switch it off when you get used to the keystrokes.
Personally I find them handy and would not now want to be without
them.

A bit annoying, though, that Ro 5.19 adopted some keystrokes that are
slightly different from the ones that Select established years ago.

[Jim Lesurf]

In article <922fe24...@nails.abbeypress.net>, Jim Nagel

<jimne...@abbeypress.co.uk> wrote:
> Jim Lesurf wrote on 12 May:

> > I can see that having keystrokes for some filer actions can be useful.
> > So I'm not complaining that the behaviour is provided. Just that I
> > don't want it, and would really like to disable it. So I'd expect it
> > to be a switchable option via !Boot's control panel.

> In Configure Filer, you might try switching "Confirm all" on for a
> while. That will wake you up when you do some keystroke
> unintentionally. Switch it off when you get used to the keystrokes.
> Personally I find them handy and would not now want to be without them.

Afraid I find that too irritating in normal use to be happy with it. The
problem isn't becoming familiar with the new keystrokes. It is avoiding
accidentally mis-applying them because I haven't noticed which window has
the focus. It seems awkward to me to add a 'feature' like this and give
users no option to disable it.

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <534aac509d...@btinternet.com>,

spampling <spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:

> Much less fiddling when moving from one LAN to another,
> much less fiddling when identifying a new printer etc when
> the router does an integrated DNS/DHCP functionality.

But, if you recall, I had problems recently with DHCP
changing the IP address of the network printer, curing it by
setting a fixed IP address outwith the DHCP range.

[Dave Higton]

In message <534b426e...@walkingingermany.invalid>

Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

> In article <534aac509d...@btinternet.com>,
> spampling <spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> > Much less fiddling when moving from one LAN to another, much less
> > fiddling when identifying a new printer etc when the router does an
> > integrated DNS/DHCP functionality.
>
> But, if you recall, I had problems recently with DHCP changing the IP
> address of the network printer, curing it by setting a fixed IP address
> outwith the DHCP range.

If DHCP changed the printer's IP address, you haven't set DHCP up
correctly for the printer.

You have to set the DHCP server to assign a fixed IP address based
on the MAC address of the printer. Clearly that IP address must
be outside the range of IP addresses assigned to non-specific
devices.

If you set it up correctly, as described above, the printer's IP
address can only be the one you assign.

Dave

[spampling]

In article <534b426e...@walkingingermany.invalid>,

Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

> In article <534aac509d...@btinternet.com>,
> spampling <spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:

> > Much less fiddling when moving from one LAN to another,
> > much less fiddling when identifying a new printer etc when
> > the router does an integrated DNS/DHCP functionality.

> But, if you recall, I had problems recently with DHCP
> changing the IP address of the network printer, curing it by
> setting a fixed IP address outwith the DHCP range.

I did say that if the router has a neatly integrated DHCP - DNS you can set
the computer print queue to point at the name and rely on DNS resolve, or
with many DHCP facilities in routers you enter a reservation against the
MAC of your printer and thereby fix the IP. This has the advantage of
allowing changes on the router to be the controlling factor (change one
device configuration only as the rest is automated)

--

Steve Pampling

[spampling]

In article <534ac2...@invalid.org.uk>, Tim Hill <t...@invalid.org.uk>
wrote:

> In article <534ab4f41a...@btinternet.com>, spampling
> <spam....@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > In article <8f14ae4...@nails.abbeypress.net>, Jim Nagel
> > <jimne...@abbeypress.co.uk> wrote:
> > > Russell Hafter News wrote on 12 May:
> > > > Yes, I would like to have a version of !Edit where copy/paste
> > > > worked the same as everywhere else.

> > > Ah, now that's the thing that 4.39 brought and is the big
> > > improvement I miss most when I occasional have to use 4.02. (Or Ro
> > > 5, come to that.)

> > Something of a ripple recently in the ROOL forums - because of the
> > change to the standard way. You might note a few here complaining they
> > would like an option to change it back...

> Can't they just run an old version of Edit? Or StrongED?

It's an OS level item change and I think most things use it properly (but
not Edit)

> Funnily enough I don't have problem switching between StrongED on RISC
> OS (which works BOTH ways) and random gubbins on Windoze. My autopilot
> seems to take care of it.

I switch around a few more OS streams as well as several versions of CLI in
data network kit (switches, routers, firewalls) with varying manufacturers.
Swear a couple of times, get a coffee, relax, start again...

--

Steve Pampling

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <29de564b5...@my.inbox.com>, Dave Higton

<da...@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:

> If DHCP changed the printer's IP address, you haven't set
> DHCP up correctly for the printer.

Which was the original situation.

> You have to set the DHCP server to assign a fixed IP
> address based on the MAC address of the printer. Clearly
> that IP address must be outside the range of IP addresses
> assigned to non-specific devices.

And this is what I have since done.

So I do not see what the additional advantage is of having
the computer capable of DHCP as well as the router.

The original comment made the point that DHCP in RISC OS
made setting up printers easier, but surely not if one needs
to set a fixed IP address?

The problem of the IP address changing manifested on Windows
as well as on RISC OS, after all.

[Russell Hafter News]

In article <534996bb...@walkingingermany.invalid>,

Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid>
wrote:

> In article

> <mpro.mmkr7p000i...@mw-software.com>, Martin
> Wuerthner <spam...@mw-software.com> wrote:

> > It is likely that the FontManager crashes are caused by
> > a broken font, and in that case, an updated FontManager
> > may not help anyway. It might be a good idea to send
> > the Quorum font to John and me for inspection.

Re-installing the font has not helped - it crashed first
time I tried to print today. Error from Fontmnager as usual.

I shall send a zipped copy of the font to Martin - I do not
have an address for John...

However, surely if the font were broken the crash would
happen every time.

As usual, after rebooting the machine printing proceded
normally.

[Graham Thurlwell]

On the 11 May 2013, cfe...@freeRemoveuk.com.invalid wrote:

<snip>

> I presume that softload RO 4.39 can be used with RO 4.02 - without
> worring about changing !Boot - so you can use either OS - as required.

It can. At home we're running 4.39 (Select 3i4) on the Omega, which
has 4.03 in ROM and I have 6.20 running on my A7000+ which has 4.02
ROMs. We were members of Select, hence the softloads.

The installer will handle updating the boot structure, and you can
swap between them if you need to but I haven't needed to for years.

--
Graham Thurlwell

Jades' First Encounters Site
http://www.jades.org/ffe.htm

[Dave Higton]

In message <534b9b6b...@walkingingermany.invalid>

Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

> In article <29de564b5...@my.inbox.com>, Dave Higton
> <da...@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:
>
> > If DHCP changed the printer's IP address, you haven't set DHCP up
> > correctly for the printer.
>
> Which was the original situation.
>
> > You have to set the DHCP server to assign a fixed IP address based on the
> > MAC address of the printer. Clearly that IP address must be outside the
> > range of IP addresses assigned to non-specific devices.
>
> And this is what I have since done.
>
> So I do not see what the additional advantage is of having the computer
> capable of DHCP as well as the router.
>
> The original comment made the point that DHCP in RISC OS made setting up
> printers easier, but surely not if one needs to set a fixed IP address?

You have the choice. Pick the one you prefer.

At home, I use fixed IP addresses. It does mean that I have to keep
all the Hosts files up to date on all relevant machines when I add
relevant new machines to the LAN.

At work, all our office computers have addresses assigned by DHCP.
Most are given dynamic addresses; mine is given a static DHCP
assignment, because I need holes in our internal firewall so that
I can access machines on our hardware LAN, using SIP and RTP. Use
of DHCP means that the assignment of my PC's IP address, and the
firewall holes, are all under the control of the IT guys, so they
can ensure that the firewall holes always match my PC's IP address.

In your case, if you only have a small LAN and only rarely need to
add new devices, I'd pick static IP addresses and the Hosts files
as being your easiest way.

Dave

[Graham Thurlwell]

On the 14 May 2013, Russell Hafter News
<see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:

<snip>

> So I do not see what the additional advantage is of having
> the computer capable of DHCP as well as the router.

Obviously your mileage will vary, but the main benefit for those whose
setup does handle networking transparently is that there's practically
no setup required.

> The original comment made the point that DHCP in RISC OS
> made setting up printers easier, but surely not if one needs
> to set a fixed IP address?

The Configure applets in 4.39 are /much/ better than in 4.02 and
network setup in particular is streets ahead. Another benefit relating
to networking is that 4.39 comes with a firewall.

To be honest, it's been so long since I used 4.02 I can't recall every
difference that 4.39 has but you won't regret the upgrade.

[Graham Thurlwell]

On the 12 May 2013, Jim Lesurf <no...@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:


>>>> 2) keyboard short-cuts for the Filer

>>> Why?? Definitely NOT something I would want to use.

>> Some people do and there is value perhaps.

> My main argument with it is - in RO 5.19 - I don't know how to switch it

> *off*! I find it as annoying as the habit of some filers elsewhere of
> dropping files into a directory if you - without meaning to - drop
> something onto a directory icon. Can be a real PITA.

You can turn them off in RO 6.20 - Configure -> Filer -> Interaction.
The Select / RISC OS 6 implementation of filer keyboard shortcuts only
has them affect the windows if they have input focus.

I think that 4.39 doesn't have keyboard shortcuts for filer anyway (or
if it does they're not working on the Omega), IIRC they came in with
one of the versions of RISC OS 6.

[Jim Nagel]

Graham Thurlwell wrote on 16 May:

> I think that 4.39 doesn't have keyboard shortcuts for filer anyway

I thought they were built-in because I had used the shortcuts for so
long that I forgot I had Quick Filer in my boot sequence, and that is
what provides the keyboard shortcuts for the filer, ever since Ro 3.7;
I use it now in 4.39 on the RiscPC and also in 5.18 on the Iyonix.

Originally by David Thomas in 1997; Martin Avison 32-bitted it and
maintains it. Current version is 2.22 (2010-feb-01):
http://www.avisoft.force9.co.uk/QFiler.htm

ROOL integrated the functionality into 5.19, apparently, but it's too
bad that some keystrokes were chosen that do not match the ones in use
since 1997.

[Chris Evans]

In article <1b94df4c5...@my.inbox.com>, Dave Higton

<URL:mailto:da...@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:
> In message <534b9b6b...@walkingingermany.invalid>
> Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:
>
> > In article <29de564b5...@my.inbox.com>, Dave Higton
> > <da...@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > If DHCP changed the printer's IP address, you haven't set DHCP up
> > > correctly for the printer.
> >
> > Which was the original situation.
> >
> > > You have to set the DHCP server to assign a fixed IP address based on the
> > > MAC address of the printer. Clearly that IP address must be outside the
> > > range of IP addresses assigned to non-specific devices.
> >
> > And this is what I have since done.
> >
> > So I do not see what the additional advantage is of having the computer
> > capable of DHCP as well as the router.
> >
> > The original comment made the point that DHCP in RISC OS made setting up
> > printers easier, but surely not if one needs to set a fixed IP address?
>
> You have the choice. Pick the one you prefer.
>
> At home, I use fixed IP addresses. It does mean that I have to keep
> all the Hosts files up to date on all relevant machines when I add
> relevant new machines to the LAN.

Why add anything to hosts files?

We have fixed IP address and have not added to the hosts files.

I dimly recall having entries in hosts alows another way of accessing them
but is that of much benefit?


Chris Evans

--
CJE Micro's / 4D 'RISC OS Specialists'
Telephone: 01903 523222 Fax: 01903 523679
ch...@cjemicros.co.uk http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/
78 Brighton Road, Worthing, West Sussex, BN11 2EN
The most beautiful thing anyone can wear, is a smile!

[Matthew Phillips]

In message <ant18154...@client.cjemicros.co.uk>

on 18 May 2013 Chris Evans wrote:

> In article <1b94df4c5...@my.inbox.com>, Dave Higton
> <URL:mailto:da...@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:
> > In message <534b9b6b...@walkingingermany.invalid>
> > Russell Hafter News <see...@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > You have the choice. Pick the one you prefer.
> >
> > At home, I use fixed IP addresses. It does mean that I have to keep
> > all the Hosts files up to date on all relevant machines when I add
> > relevant new machines to the LAN.
>
> Why add anything to hosts files?
>
> We have fixed IP address and have not added to the hosts files.
>
> I dimly recall having entries in hosts alows another way of accessing them
> but is that of much benefit?

Depends whether you prefer names or numbers I suppose.

The hosts file is just a way of translating names to numbers. It performs
the same function as DNS, but takes priority over DNS lookup.

In the internet configuration window you can set up the host name and local
domain for a machine, but if you want other machines on your LAN to be able
to refer to the machine by name, you have to either register the name and IP
address with your DNS server (there might be one in your router, often
combined with DHCP) or you have to set them up in the hosts files of the
other machines.

If you are only using ShareFS to share drives then there's no real need to
refer to other machines by name. But if any machine on your network is
running a web server, for example, or an FTP server, or is sharing a drive
via NFS, then referring to the machine by name is often easier.

--
Matthew Phillips
Durham

[Dave Higton]

In message <ant18154...@client.cjemicros.co.uk>

Chris Evans <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <1b94df4c5...@my.inbox.com>, Dave Higton
> <URL:mailto:da...@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:
> >
> > At home, I use fixed IP addresses. It does mean that I have to keep all
> > the Hosts files up to date on all relevant machines when I add relevant
> > new machines to the LAN.
>
> Why add anything to hosts files?
>
> We have fixed IP address and have not added to the hosts files.
>
> I dimly recall having entries in hosts alows another way of accessing them
> but is that of much benefit?

I can assign a fixed address to each machine, but how do all the
other machines know what address it has?

I have about 37 device addresses assigned. OK, some are no longer
active - but the majority are, either permanently or from time to
time. I'm good with numbers, but I really can't remember each of
those addresses. The names are more memorable. Hence an entry
for each device in each hosts file.

Dave

[Tim Hill]

In article <5493f94d5...@my.inbox.com>, Dave Higton
<da...@davehigton.me.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

> I can assign a fixed address to each machine, but how do all the other
> machines know what address it has?

I have a Home Page on this machine (and served by WebJames to every other
browser on every other device) which contains all the fixed IP addresses.
It is also a useful way to access things like my WiFi switch whose number
is, er, I forget.

I also use Hosts files on my machines to keep a record of IPAs allocated
but use the names infrequently, to be honest I could probably manage with
just the default hosts file, the upside of which is that I know both
Windows and RISC OS can use copies of exactly the same file.