Booting with no IDE
Dave Plowman (News)
IDE devices you unplugged CDFSSoftATAPI. But this doesn't work on 4.39 due
to the module not being in ROM? So what is the trick?
If I unplug it and do a soft restart it does so immediately. But switch
off and it's no longer unplugged.
--
*Who is this General Failure chap anyway - and why is he reading my HD? *
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Chris Johnson
Dave Plowman (News) <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> But this doesn't work on 4.39 due
> to the module not being in ROM? So what is the trick?
If it is genuinely not in ROM, then it must be being loaded from disc
during boot. Therefore, track down where it is being loaded and don't
load it in the first place, or am I missing something obvious?
--
Chris Johnson
Dave Plowman (News)
This is what confuses me. It can't be loading from disc as you'd have to
start the boot sequence for this - and that's what hangs things up as the
system looks for the HD to boot from.
On my other machine (4.02) unplugging it works just fine. But not on this
one.
--
*They call it PMS because Mad Cow Disease was already taken.
Chris Johnson
Dave Plowman (News) <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> This is what confuses me. It can't be loading from disc as you'd
> have to start the boot sequence for this - and that's what hangs
> things up as the system looks for the HD to boot from.
I am assuming that RISC OS 4.39 is installed as a ROM, rather than
being softloaded. Is CDFSSoftATAPI being loaded from a podule? Have
you done a *ROMModules etc to check what exactly is present? It is a
long time since I used a RiscPC, so my memory is a bit hazy. If you
do not have any IDE devices, are they all configured to zero?
--
Chris Johnson
Brian Carroll
<da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> With RO4.02 and earlier to prevent a long hangup when booting
> without any IDE devices you unplugged CDFSSoftATAPI. But this
CDFSSoftATAPI (and CDFSSoftSCSI2) are both in my RISC OS 4.39
ROMs, at positions 128 & 129 repectively. Both are unplugged. I
use CDFSSoftPower for my Plextor SCSI CDdrives.
Have you checked using *ROMMODULES ?
> So what is the trick? If I unplug it and do a soft restart it
> does so immediately. But switch off and it's no longer
> unplugged.
Brian.
--
______________________________________________________________
Brian Carroll, Ripon, N Yorks, UK briancarroll at f2s dot com
______________________________________________________________
Brian Carroll
Brian Carroll <bric-...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
[Snip]
> Have you checked using *ROMMODULES ?
A further thought: try removing the file ~CDReinit from
!Boot.Choices.Users.Single.Boot.Tasks
druck
The non obvious problem is due to ROL splitting the Utility Module in to
lots of smaller ones and adding modules for new features has meant that
there are no longer enough bits in the CMOS to store the unplug state.
This means that modules at the end of the list will be made inactive by
an unplug command, but it wont be preserved over a rest, and they'll
come back again as you found.
---druck
Brian Carroll
<ne...@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
> Chris Johnson wrote:
> > In article <50af77c...@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman
> > (News) <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> >> But this doesn't work on 4.39 due to the module not being
> >> in ROM? So what is the trick?
> >
> > If it is genuinely not in ROM, then it must be being loaded
> > from disc during boot. Therefore, track down where it is
> > being loaded and don't load it in the first place, or am I
> > missing something obvious?
> The non obvious problem is due to ROL splitting the Utility
> Module in to lots of smaller ones and adding modules for new
> features has meant that there are no longer enough bits in the
> CMOS to store the unplug state.
That is true for RISC OS v 4.39, but only ROM modules numbered
154 -164 cannot be unplugged; any lower-numbered modules, which
includes CDFSSoftATAPI, can be. Indeed, I seem to have no
trouble unplugging it in my RiscPC with RISC OS v 4.39 in ROM.
>This means that modules at the end of the list will be made
>inactive by an unplug command, but it wont be preserved over a
>rest, and they'll come back again as you found.
Yes, the Unplug command can be used for all modules in the list
but those beyond No 153 are merely made 'Dormant', hence are
restored to 'Active' on the next Boot. Here, in RISC OS 6.10
there are 209 modules in ROM. CDFSSoftATAPI is No192 so it can
be made only 'Dormant'.
Ie, the problem unplugging of the CDFSSoftATAPI module, hence
delaying boot when no IDE CD drive is fitted, came with RISC OS
v 6.xx. RISC OS v 4.39 should be OK ...... unless of course
the order of modules varies with different builds.
Dave Plowman (News)
That's indeed what's happening. Is there no fix?
> ---druck
--
He who laughs last, thinks slowest*
Dave Plowman (News)
Brian Carroll <bric-...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> Ie, the problem unplugging of the CDFSSoftATAPI module, hence
> delaying boot when no IDE CD drive is fitted, came with RISC OS
> v 6.xx. RISC OS v 4.39 should be OK ...... unless of course
> the order of modules varies with different builds.
Is there anything else that can delay boot on 4.39 with nothing on the IDE
buss?
Having removed CDreinit from tasks, CDFSSoftAtapi doesn't report being
unplugged but is dormant. However the machine still hangs at boot.
--
*If you remember the '60s, you weren't really there
David Holden
On 24-Oct-2009, "Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> With RO4.02 and earlier to prevent a long hangup when booting without any
> IDE devices you unplugged CDFSSoftATAPI. But this doesn't work on 4.39 due
> to the module not being in ROM? So what is the trick?
> If I unplug it and do a soft restart it does so immediately. But switch
> off and it's no longer unplugged.
With RO 4.39 CDFSSoftATAPI is in ROM and can be unplugged. Your problem is
therefore elsewhere.
If you aren't using any ADFS IDE devices then what 3rd party IDE/SCSI
interface are your booting from? When exactly does the delay occur? With all
the APDL IDE cards the delay occurs *before* the message 'Waiting for hard
drive' appears. The most likely cause of the problem is that some piece of
software is doing a RMreinit or unsetting the appropriate bit of CMOS RAM.
--
David Holden - APDL - <http://www.apdl.co.uk>
Chris Hughes
"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4AE4935C...@druck.freeuk.com>,
> druck <ne...@druck.freeuk.com> wrote:
>> Chris Johnson wrote:
>>> In article <50af77c...@davenoise.co.uk>,
>>> Dave Plowman (News) <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> But this doesn't work on 4.39 due
>>>> to the module not being in ROM? So what is the trick?
>>>
>>> If it is genuinely not in ROM, then it must be being loaded from disc
>>> during boot. Therefore, track down where it is being loaded and don't
>>> load it in the first place, or am I missing something obvious?
>> The non obvious problem is due to ROL splitting the Utility Module in to
>> lots of smaller ones and adding modules for new features has meant that
>> there are no longer enough bits in the CMOS to store the unplug state.
>> This means that modules at the end of the list will be made inactive by
>> an unplug command, but it wont be preserved over a rest, and they'll
>> come back again as you found.
> That's indeed what's happening. Is there no fix?
If this is the soft load then certainly on RO6 soft loads - two
versions of the ROMS were provided one with an active CDFSSoftAtapi
and one with it basically turned off. Does the 4.39 version have this?
--
Chris Hughes
David Holden
On 26-Oct-2009, Chris Hughes <ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
> If this is the soft load then certainly on RO6 soft loads - two
> versions of the ROMS were provided one with an active CDFSSoftAtapi
> and one with it basically turned off. Does the 4.39 version have this?
No, that is not the case with 4.39. As I've said elsewhere with 4.39
CDFSsoftATAPI *can* be unplugged in the usual way.
Dave Plowman (News)
David Holden <Spa...@apdl.co.uk> wrote:
It's a Unipod. I get a flashing cursor in the top left of the screen for
several minutes.
My other machine has a Blitz with again nothing on the IDE buss but soft
loaded 4.39. Unplugging CDFSSoftATAPI (and something else I can't
remember) worked just fine on that.
--
*What hair colour do they put on the driver's license of a bald man? *
Brian Carroll
<da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <50afef64f5...@argonet.co.uk>, Brian
> Carroll <bric-...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > Ie, the problem unplugging of the CDFSSoftATAPI module,
> > hence delaying boot when no IDE CD drive is fitted, came
> > with RISC OS v 6.xx. RISC OS v 4.39 should be OK ......
> > unless of course the order of modules varies with different
> > builds.
> Is there anything else that can delay boot on 4.39 with
> nothing on the IDE buss?
Yes. I think having too many CDROMdrives configured might cause
that. Check with *Status CDROMdrives.
It seems to me that the OS looks on all the file systems in
turn, for which it has found a CDFSSoftxxxx, until it has found
a total number of drives the same as is set in the config. bits.
This is where the long delay can occur.
Eg, I have 2 drives on the PowerTec SCSI, but none on the
motherboard IDE or the UNIpod IDE. I have to have both
CDFSSoftATAPI and CDFSSoftSCSI2 Unplugged because my SCSI system
needs to use CDFSSoftPower.
Brian, (clutching at straws)
David Holden
On 26-Oct-2009, "Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <7kkug3F...@mid.individual.net>,
> David Holden <Spa...@apdl.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > With RO 4.39 CDFSSoftATAPI is in ROM and can be unplugged. Your problem
> > is therefore elsewhere.
>
> > If you aren't using any ADFS IDE devices then what 3rd party IDE/SCSI
> > interface are your booting from? When exactly does the delay occur? With
> > all the APDL IDE cards the delay occurs *before* the message 'Waiting
> > for hard drive' appears. The most likely cause of the problem is that
> > some piece of software is doing a RMreinit or unsetting the appropriate
> > bit of CMOS RAM.
>
> It's a Unipod. I get a flashing cursor in the top left of the screen for
> several minutes.
>
Then this isn't a CDFSsoftATAPI problem. That would only cause a delay of a
few seconds. Try installing a clean !Boot because that's the most likely
source of your problems.
Of course, I'm assuming you haven't done something like configure an IDE
drive?
Dave Plowman (News)
Brian Carroll <bric-...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <50b0029...@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman (News)
> <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <50afef64f5...@argonet.co.uk>, Brian
> > Carroll <bric-...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > > Ie, the problem unplugging of the CDFSSoftATAPI module,
> > > hence delaying boot when no IDE CD drive is fitted, came
> > > with RISC OS v 6.xx. RISC OS v 4.39 should be OK ......
> > > unless of course the order of modules varies with different
> > > builds.
> > Is there anything else that can delay boot on 4.39 with
> > nothing on the IDE buss?
> Yes. I think having too many CDROMdrives configured might cause
> that. Check with *Status CDROMdrives.
Is there a difference between simply counting the icons and what that can
say?
> It seems to me that the OS looks on all the file systems in
> turn, for which it has found a CDFSSoftxxxx, until it has found
> a total number of drives the same as is set in the config. bits.
> This is where the long delay can occur.
> Eg, I have 2 drives on the PowerTec SCSI, but none on the
> motherboard IDE or the UNIpod IDE. I have to have both
> CDFSSoftATAPI and CDFSSoftSCSI2 Unplugged because my SCSI system
> needs to use CDFSSoftPower.
I have two drives on the Unipod and one on the Castle SCSI.
> Brian, (clutching at straws)
--
*Your kid may be an honours student, but you're still an idiot.
Dave Plowman (News)
David Holden <Spa...@apdl.co.uk> wrote:
> > It's a Unipod. I get a flashing cursor in the top left of the screen
> > for several minutes.
> >
> Then this isn't a CDFSsoftATAPI problem. That would only cause a delay
> of a few seconds.
Eh? Far more than that on both my machines with a variety of expansion
cards - first one being a RapIDE. They hang for ages.
> Try installing a clean !Boot because that's the most
> likely source of your problems.
It took ages to get this one configured properly after installing RO 4.39.
> Of course, I'm assuming you haven't done something like configure an IDE
> drive?
Of course not.
Let me go through this again.
If I *unplug cdfssoftatapi and do a control break it restarts immediately.
But then *unplug shows nothing unplugged.
So something is reinit cdfssoftatapi.
--
*What was the best thing before sliced bread?
Martin Wuerthner
"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> If I *unplug cdfssoftatapi and do a control break it restarts immediately.
> But then *unplug shows nothing unplugged.
> So something is reinit cdfssoftatapi.
That something cannot be in your boot sequence because you see the
delay before your boot sequence runs. So, either something initialises
the module when shutting down (you can exclude that possibility by
switching off without shutting down - dismount your hard drives from
the command line, then switch off) or the module is initialised from
podule code during startup.
Have you checked what *unplug says after you issue the *unplug command
and before you reboot?
What happens when you *unplug something else and you reboot? Is that
information preserved?
Martin
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Martin Wuerthner MW Software http://www.mw-software.com/
ArtWorks 2 -- Designing stunning graphics has never been easier
spam...@mw-software.com [replace "spamtrap" by "info" to reply]
Dave Plowman (News)
Martin Wuerthner <spam...@mw-software.com> wrote:
> In message <50b05be...@davenoise.co.uk>
> "Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> > If I *unplug cdfssoftatapi and do a control break it restarts
> > immediately. But then *unplug shows nothing unplugged.
> > So something is reinit cdfssoftatapi.
> That something cannot be in your boot sequence because you see the
> delay before your boot sequence runs.
Not if I unplug it before shutting down.
> So, either something initialises
> the module when shutting down (you can exclude that possibility by
> switching off without shutting down - dismount your hard drives from
> the command line, then switch off) or the module is initialised from
> podule code during startup.
Tried dismounting the HDs - no difference.
> Have you checked what *unplug says after you issue the *unplug command
> and before you reboot?
Yes - says it's unplugged.
> What happens when you *unplug something else and you reboot? Is that
> information preserved?
Yes - with the random one I tried.
Could I do an obey file with unplugs it at shutdown? If so how? ;-)
> Martin
--
*Women who seek to be equal to men lack ambition.
Brian Carroll
<da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <50b039e7a1...@argonet.co.uk>, Brian
> Carroll <bric-...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <50b0029...@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman
> > (News) <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
[Snip]
> > > Is there anything else that can delay boot on 4.39 with
> > > nothing on the IDE buss?
> > Yes. I think having too many CDROMdrives configured might
> > cause that. Check with *Status CDROMdrives.
> Is there a difference between simply counting the icons and
> what that can say?
I would expect the numbers to be the same, but it's easy enough
to try it. If you do that and provide feedback; you are likely
to get better help.
Brian.
Dave Plowman (News)
Brian Carroll <bric-...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > > Yes. I think having too many CDROMdrives configured might
> > > cause that. Check with *Status CDROMdrives.
> > Is there a difference between simply counting the icons and
> > what that can say?
> I would expect the numbers to be the same, but it's easy enough
> to try it. If you do that and provide feedback; you are likely
> to get better help.
It was a genuine question.
But yes it says the same as the number of icons.
--
*How's my driving? Call 999*
druck
>> It's a Unipod. I get a flashing cursor in the top left of the screen for
>> several minutes.
>>
> Then this isn't a CDFSsoftATAPI problem. That would only cause a delay of a
> few seconds. Try installing a clean !Boot because that's the most likely
> source of your problems.
If it was !Boot, you'd get a filing system strap line then a cursor.
> Of course, I'm assuming you haven't done something like configure an IDE
> drive?
That's far more likely, if you have IDEDrives non zero and no discs on
the motherboard, you will get a lengthy hang both on initial startup
before the banner, and again on reaching the desktop as ADFSFiler looks
again for the disc.
---druck
Martin Wuerthner
"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <bd8261b0...@bach.planiverse.com>,
> Martin Wuerthner <spam...@mw-software.com> wrote:
>> In message <50b05be...@davenoise.co.uk>
>> "Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>>> If I *unplug cdfssoftatapi and do a control break it restarts
>>> immediately. But then *unplug shows nothing unplugged.
>>> So something is reinit cdfssoftatapi.
>> That something cannot be in your boot sequence because you see the
>> delay before your boot sequence runs.
> Not if I unplug it before shutting down.
Sorry, you lost me there. Not what?
>> So, either something initialises
>> the module when shutting down (you can exclude that possibility by
>> switching off without shutting down - dismount your hard drives from
>> the command line, then switch off) or the module is initialised from
>> podule code during startup.
> Tried dismounting the HDs - no difference.
The crucial point was not the dismounting of the HDs, the crucial
point was to *switch off* your computer rather than shutting it down.
In order to do that safely, you need to dismount your HDs.
Dave Plowman (News)
Nice to see the experts disagreeing. ;-)
But having IDEDrives non zero when I have nothing on the IDE buss is
rather obvious even for me.
--
*Some days we are the flies; some days we are the windscreen.*
Dave Plowman (News)
Martin Wuerthner <spam...@mw-software.com> wrote:
> In message <50b06ba...@davenoise.co.uk>
> "Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <bd8261b0...@bach.planiverse.com>,
> > Martin Wuerthner <spam...@mw-software.com> wrote:
> >> In message <50b05be...@davenoise.co.uk>
> >> "Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> >>> If I *unplug cdfssoftatapi and do a control break it restarts
> >>> immediately. But then *unplug shows nothing unplugged.
> >>> So something is reinit cdfssoftatapi.
> >> That something cannot be in your boot sequence because you see the
> >> delay before your boot sequence runs.
> > Not if I unplug it before shutting down.
> Sorry, you lost me there. Not what?
If I unplug it then shutdown no matter how it boots normally - but then
shows nothing unplugged. So could boot be reinit somehow? I'm cross eyed
looking for something that could do that.
> >> So, either something initialises
> >> the module when shutting down (you can exclude that possibility by
> >> switching off without shutting down - dismount your hard drives from
> >> the command line, then switch off) or the module is initialised from
> >> podule code during startup.
> > Tried dismounting the HDs - no difference.
> The crucial point was not the dismounting of the HDs, the crucial
> point was to *switch off* your computer rather than shutting it down.
> In order to do that safely, you need to dismount your HDs.
Yes - tried all that. Still no difference.
> Martin
--
*Why can't women put on mascara with their mouth closed?
Martin Wuerthner
"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <01a7bfb0...@bach.planiverse.com>,
> Martin Wuerthner <spam...@mw-software.com> wrote:
>> In message <50b06ba...@davenoise.co.uk>
>> "Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In article <bd8261b0...@bach.planiverse.com>,
>>> Martin Wuerthner <spam...@mw-software.com> wrote:
>>>> In message <50b05be...@davenoise.co.uk>
>>>> "Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> If I *unplug cdfssoftatapi and do a control break it restarts
>>>>> immediately. But then *unplug shows nothing unplugged.
>>>>> So something is reinit cdfssoftatapi.
>>>> That something cannot be in your boot sequence because you see the
>>>> delay before your boot sequence runs.
>>> Not if I unplug it before shutting down.
>> Sorry, you lost me there. Not what?
> If I unplug it then shutdown no matter how it boots normally - but then
> shows nothing unplugged. So could boot be reinit somehow? I'm cross eyed
> looking for something that could do that.
Ah, of course that is an important piece of information. OK, now I
see: this is what you meant by "it restarts immediately" above. So,
unplugging does have the desired effect for one boot cycle, but it
does not last because something in your boot sequence reinits the
module.
You will probably want to use Reporter to log all commands executed as
part of your boot sequence.
David Holden
On 28-Oct-2009, Martin Wuerthner <spam...@mw-software.com> wrote:
> Ah, of course that is an important piece of information. OK, now I
> see: this is what you meant by "it restarts immediately" above. So,
> unplugging does have the desired effect for one boot cycle, but it
> does not last because something in your boot sequence reinits the
> module.
Both druck and I have already said that (that's why I suggested installing a
clean Boot) but so far it's been ignored. Perhaps you'll have more luck.
Martin Wuerthner
"David Holden" <Spa...@apdl.co.uk> wrote:
I would not go as far as suggesting a clean Boot - that is not really
an option in most cases. Finding out where in the boot sequence the
culprit is should not be too hard using Reporter.
Dave Plowman (News)
David Holden <Spa...@apdl.co.uk> wrote:
I'm not too keen on the shotgun approach. And as I said it took a great
deal of time getting everything the way I wanted it after installing 4.39.
So unless there was a clue as to what is causing it I'd likely just end up
with the same problem again.
--
*The statement above is false
David Holden
On 28-Oct-2009, "Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <7kq98mF...@mid.individual.net>,
> David Holden <Spa...@apdl.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Both druck and I have already said that (that's why I suggested
> > installing a clean Boot) but so far it's been ignored. Perhaps you'll
> > have more luck.
>
> I'm not too keen on the shotgun approach. And as I said it took a great
> deal of time getting everything the way I wanted it after installing 4.39.
> So unless there was a clue as to what is causing it I'd likely just end up
> with the same problem again.
It takes only a few minutes and if the problem goes away you *know* it's
something in your !Boot, if it doesn't it's elsewher. Can save hours of
poking around.
Chris Evans
<URL:mailto:spam...@mw-software.com> wrote:
> In message <7kq98mF...@mid.individual.net>
> "David Holden" <Spa...@apdl.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> > On 28-Oct-2009, Martin Wuerthner <spam...@mw-software.com> wrote:
>
> >> Ah, of course that is an important piece of information. OK, now I
> >> see: this is what you meant by "it restarts immediately" above. So,
> >> unplugging does have the desired effect for one boot cycle, but it
> >> does not last because something in your boot sequence reinits the
> >> module.
>
> > Both druck and I have already said that (that's why I suggested installing a
> > clean Boot) but so far it's been ignored. Perhaps you'll have more luck.
>
> I would not go as far as suggesting a clean Boot - that is not really
> an option in most cases. Finding out where in the boot sequence the
> culprit is should not be too hard using Reporter.
I recommend making copies of 'working' $.!Boot directories evry so often and
in particular after any significant change, this alows rollbacks to useful
!Boot's
e.g.
$.Utilities.Copy!Boot.402-20020512
$.Utilities.Copy!Boot.439-20060512
$.Utilities.Copy!Boot.600-20060512
$.Utilities.Copy!Boot.600-20081105
$.Utilities.Copy!Boot.616-20090812
$.Utilities.Copy!Boot.616-20091001
'Moving' a known working !Boot back into $ normally proves if the fault lies
there
Gripe of the day
Unfortuanatly badly written programs like Messenger store their data withing
$.!Boot which makes life more complicated. I really don't know why R-Comp
don't fix that.
Chris Evans
--
CJE Micro's / 4D 'RISC OS Specialists'
Telephone: 01903 523222 Fax: 01903 523679
ch...@cjemicros.co.uk http://www.cjemicros.co.uk/
78 Brighton Road, Worthing, West Sussex, BN11 2EN
The most beautiful thing anyone can wear, is a smile!
Martin Wuerthner
Chris Evans <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
> Gripe of the day
> Unfortuanatly badly written programs like Messenger store their data withing
> $.!Boot which makes life more complicated. I really don't know why R-Comp
> don't fix that.
Maybe I misunderstand but my copy of Messenger does not store anything
within !Boot, except that it uses the Choices system of course, which
is recommended practice. Choices lives somewhere inside !Boot, so all
application user option files always lives there.
MessengerPro stores everything inside !NewsDir and !NewsDir lives
wherever you put it. If you put yours inside !Boot, then that
obviously gets in the way of your !Boot backup/restore scheme, but
that is hardly Messenger's fault. Simply move it to a better place
(e.g., $.!NewsDir) and make sure it is "seen" by the Filer at
start-up.
Chris Evans
<URL:mailto:spam...@mw-software.com> wrote:
> In message <ant28101...@client.cjemicros.co.uk>
> Chris Evans <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > Gripe of the day
> > Unfortuanatly badly written programs like Messenger store their data withing
> > $.!Boot which makes life more complicated. I really don't know why R-Comp
> > don't fix that.
>
> Maybe I misunderstand but my copy of Messenger does not store anything
> within !Boot, except that it uses the Choices system of course, which
> is recommended practice. Choices lives somewhere inside !Boot, so all
> application user option files always lives there.
>
> MessengerPro stores everything inside !NewsDir and !NewsDir lives
> wherever you put it. If you put yours inside !Boot, then that
> obviously gets in the way of your !Boot backup/restore scheme, but
> that is hardly Messenger's fault. Simply move it to a better place
> (e.g., $.!NewsDir) and make sure it is "seen" by the Filer at
> start-up.
I'm not a messenger user myself and didn't know it could be changed, but the
default is I believe within $.!Boot as I have seen dozens of customers with
!NewsDir there.
A more sensible default is what is required, as many (most?) users will not
change the default, many customers/news group posters have said they don't
know where it is stored or realise the stupidity of its position.
Glad to hear it can be moved easily, hopefully this thread will encourage
users to move it now!
Bryn Evans
> I'm not a messenger user myself and didn't know it could be changed, but the
> default is I believe within $.!Boot as I have seen dozens of customers with
> !NewsDir there.
> A more sensible default is what is required, as many (most?) users will not
> change the default, many customers/news group posters have said they don't
> know where it is stored or realise the stupidity of its position.
I moved mine several years ago, because !Boot was becoming too
bloated.
Everything to do with Internet facilities is now inside a blanket
directory "WWW" and I use the 'LookAt' option in the Boot system to
activate them to suit my needs. Directory WWW is 38+ Mb.
Even so, my "~SpareBoot" copy is around 12 Mb
--
|)����[
|)ryn [vans mail to - Bryn...@bryork.freeuk.com
Matthew Phillips
on 28 Oct 2009 Chris Evans wrote:
> In article <f71255b1...@bach.planiverse.com>, Martin Wuerthner
> <URL:mailto:spam...@mw-software.com> wrote:
> > In message <ant28101...@client.cjemicros.co.uk>
> > Chris Evans <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > Gripe of the day
> > > Unfortuanatly badly written programs like Messenger store their data
> > > withing $.!Boot which makes life more complicated. I really don't know
> > > why R-Comp don't fix that.
> >
> > Maybe I misunderstand but my copy of Messenger does not store anything
> > within !Boot, except that it uses the Choices system of course, which
> > is recommended practice.
> >
> > MessengerPro stores everything inside !NewsDir and !NewsDir lives
> > wherever you put it. If you put yours inside !Boot, then that
> > obviously gets in the way of your !Boot backup/restore scheme, but
> > that is hardly Messenger's fault. Simply move it to a better place
> > (e.g., $.!NewsDir) and make sure it is "seen" by the Filer at
> > start-up.
>
> I'm not a messenger user myself and didn't know it could be changed, but
> the default is I believe within $.!Boot as I have seen dozens of customers
> with !NewsDir there. A more sensible default is what is required, as many
> (most?) users will not change the default, many customers/news group
> posters have said they don't know where it is stored or realise the
> stupidity of its position.
I agree: I think that Messenger Pro's installer puts !NewsDir inside
!Boot.Resources which is a dreadful place to put it. R-Comp's stuff tends to
make it very easy for the user to install, but doesn't give them any
understanding of how it works or what is really happening. See, for example,
DialUp and NetFetch which hide Hermes and NewsHound inside themselves,
including directing each of these apps to keep its choices inside
DialUp/NetFetch rather than !Boot.Choices.
Maybe their approach makes it easier for the user initially, but it does not
represent good practice to my mind.
But it can all be fixed, by moving !NewsDir out and making sure it is seen.
I think it's even possible to fix DialUp/NetFetch to store the choices for
NewsHound somewhere sensible. Not sure about Hermes.
--
Matthew Phillips
Dundee
Steve Fryatt
> I'm not a messenger user myself and didn't know it could be changed, but
> the default is I believe within $.!Boot as I have seen dozens of customers
> with !NewsDir there.
The installer stops and asks the user to drag !NewsDir out to a sensible
place on disc; if they choose not to, it ends up in !Boot from what I
remember. It's hard to see what else it could do, short of refusing to
install (which wouldn't be populat either).
> A more sensible default is what is required, as many (most?) users will
> not change the default, many customers/news group posters have said they
> don't know where it is stored or realise the stupidity of its position.
!NewsDir is still a shared resource (or it was, when M-Pro first came out),
and !Boot.Resources is for shared resources according to Acorn. There may
be better places, but they all require a level of user-knowledge to set up:
storing the data inside !Messenger is even worse than in !Boot.
--
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England
Graham Thurlwell
<mn...@sinenomine.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
> But it can all be fixed, by moving !NewsDir out and making sure it is seen.
> I think it's even possible to fix DialUp/NetFetch to store the choices for
> NewsHound somewhere sensible. Not sure about Hermes.
I'm running both Newshound and Hermes standalone. Newshound is in its
own directory and is in the AllUsers Look at section in Select's Boot
Configuration, as is Hermes (which is in the same directory as the
rest of the RComp stuff).
Configuration is done from the applications themselves and their
config files are within their application directories. I'm not sure if
there's a way to force them to be in !Boot.Choices instead.
I've dragged and dropped !NewsHound and !Hermes to the 'News trans
app' and 'Mail trans app' (respectively) writable icons in !DialUp's
Defaults config window.
!NewsDir is on the Workspace partition on the Omega, again with it
being in 'Look at'.
IIRC, you should have !NewsHound and !Hermes looked at /before/
!NewsDir.
--
Graham Thurlwell
Jades' First Encounters Site
http://www.jades.org/ffe.htm
Chris Evans
<URL:mailto:ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
> Chris Evans <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > I'm not a messenger user myself and didn't know it could be changed, but
> > the default is I believe within $.!Boot as I have seen dozens of customers
> > with !NewsDir there.
>
> The installer stops and asks the user to drag !NewsDir out to a sensible
> place on disc; if they choose not to, it ends up in !Boot from what I
> remember. It's hard to see what else it could do, short of refusing to
> install (which wouldn't be populat either).
Simple, default to something more sensible.
New users will nearly always go with the default because they don't
understand the implications and hence the disireability of not using it
and/or they trust the author to be sensible.
It has cost a number of our customers time and money!
If we are talking customers on the phone through problems we will often get
them to make a copy of $.!Boot before getting them to change things...
I have also seen customers run out of disc space because they sensibly
regularly keep backups on the same drive of their $.!Boot
> > A more sensible default is what is required, as many (most?) users will
> > not change the default, many customers/news group posters have said they
> > don't know where it is stored or realise the stupidity of its position.
>
> !NewsDir is still a shared resource (or it was, when M-Pro first came out),
> and !Boot.Resources is for shared resources according to Acorn. There may
> be better places, but they all require a level of user-knowledge to set up:
> storing the data inside !Messenger is even worse than in !Boot.
Why worse? not ideal, but many of the problems users have would go away.
In fact storing the data within the application is to my mind the next most
intuative. The most intuative being, stored in the same directory as the app.
Dave Plowman (News)
David Holden <Spa...@apdl.co.uk> wrote:
> > I'm not too keen on the shotgun approach. And as I said it took a
> > great deal of time getting everything the way I wanted it after
> > installing 4.39. So unless there was a clue as to what is causing it
> > I'd likely just end up with the same problem again.
> It takes only a few minutes and if the problem goes away you *know* it's
> something in your !Boot, if it doesn't it's elsewher. Can save hours of
> poking around.
It may only take a few moments to install a clean boot - but then lots of
time to put back all the bits and pieces I have in there. Including things
like network settings.
Other thing is that presumably you'd include a CMOS reset to defaults
after installing a clean boot? Snag is both of my LCD monitors show out of
range when I do this.
--
*Women who seek to be equal to men lack ambition.
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
Chris Evans
<URL:mailto:da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <7kqomkF...@mid.individual.net>,
> David Holden <Spa...@apdl.co.uk> wrote:
> > > I'm not too keen on the shotgun approach. And as I said it took a
> > > great deal of time getting everything the way I wanted it after
> > > installing 4.39. So unless there was a clue as to what is causing it
> > > I'd likely just end up with the same problem again.
>
> > It takes only a few minutes and if the problem goes away you *know* it's
> > something in your !Boot, if it doesn't it's elsewher. Can save hours of
> > poking around.
>
> It may only take a few moments to install a clean boot - but then lots of
> time to put back all the bits and pieces I have in there. Including things
> like network settings.
But if you make a backup copy of $.!boot after every major upgrade and then
periodically, all or nearly all of your custom settings would be there.
> Other thing is that presumably you'd include a CMOS reset to defaults
> after installing a clean boot? Snag is both of my LCD monitors show out of
> range when I do this.
You do have to type it blind but it is straight forward when you know how:
F12
*con. sync 0
RETURN
RETURN
Fixes that 95+% of the time
*con. monitor. 3
is very occasionaly also needed.
Dave Plowman (News)
Chris Evans <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <50b1e93...@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman (News)
> <URL:mailto:da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <7kqomkF...@mid.individual.net>,
> > David Holden <Spa...@apdl.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > I'm not too keen on the shotgun approach. And as I said it took a
> > > > great deal of time getting everything the way I wanted it after
> > > > installing 4.39. So unless there was a clue as to what is causing it
> > > > I'd likely just end up with the same problem again.
> >
> > > It takes only a few minutes and if the problem goes away you *know*
> > > it's something in your !Boot, if it doesn't it's elsewher. Can save
> > > hours of poking around.
> >
> > It may only take a few moments to install a clean boot - but then lots
> > of time to put back all the bits and pieces I have in there. Including
> > things like network settings.
> But if you make a backup copy of $.!boot after every major upgrade and
> then periodically, all or nearly all of your custom settings would be
> there.
I do have a copy of this. But there will still be things missing. Not
organised enough to do regular backups.
>
> > Other thing is that presumably you'd include a CMOS reset to defaults
> > after installing a clean boot? Snag is both of my LCD monitors show
> > out of range when I do this.
> You do have to type it blind but it is straight forward when you know
> how:
> F12 *con. sync 0 RETURN RETURN
> Fixes that 95+% of the time
> *con. monitor. 3
> is very occasionaly also needed.
Not with 4.39. First you have to get to the command line. But the easiest
way is to use a TV with a VGA input - they seem to lockup ok. Just adds to
the hassle as there isn't one in this room.
--
*If God had wanted me to touch my toes, he would have put them on my knees
James Peacock
> In article <mpro.ks8ofw03...@stevefryatt.org.uk>, Steve Fryatt
> <URL:mailto:ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
[snip]
>> !NewsDir is still a shared resource (or it was, when M-Pro first came out),
>> and !Boot.Resources is for shared resources according to Acorn. There may
>> be better places, but they all require a level of user-knowledge to set up:
>> storing the data inside !Messenger is even worse than in !Boot.
>
> Why worse? not ideal, but many of the problems users have would go away.
> In fact storing the data within the application is to my mind the next most
> intuative. The most intuative being, stored in the same directory as the app.
Having the config files in the applications just makes it easier to
accidently delete or loose your configuration when upgrading
applications or switching between versions.
It also means you need to run application from a writable file system.
This could exclude network setups or running applications directly
within an archive.
The usual RISC OS setup isn't really ideal, what we have is:
Non-persistent temporary data: !Scrap
Persistent, user specific data: !Boot.Choices
This doesn't leave anywhere for read/write persistent system-wide data
so it usually gets dumped in Resources or !Scrap.
The idea of a !Cache directory [1,2] which could be used for this has
been floated in the past. Similarly to !Scrap, it could be located
anywhere, as long as it was booted on start up. It would allow people
who care to move it out of !Boot and those who don't not to worry
about it.
The problem is of course that there needs to be a consensus amongst
application writers to use it.
James
[1] http://www.snowstone.org.uk/riscos/
[2] I think a less specific name would be better, "Cache" doesn't
really suggest data persistence, maybe "Persist".
Matthew Phillips
on 28 Oct 2009 Graham Thurlwell wrote:
> On the 28 Oct 2009, Matthew Phillips
> <mn...@sinenomine.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > But it can all be fixed, by moving !NewsDir out and making sure it is
> > seen. I think it's even possible to fix DialUp/NetFetch to store the
> > choices for NewsHound somewhere sensible. Not sure about Hermes.
>
> I'm running both Newshound and Hermes standalone. Newshound is in its
> own directory and is in the AllUsers Look at section in Select's Boot
> Configuration, as is Hermes (which is in the same directory as the
> rest of the RComp stuff).
>
> Configuration is done from the applications themselves and their
> config files are within their application directories. I'm not sure if
> there's a way to force them to be in !Boot.Choices instead.
I was misremembering. You are right: NewsHound stores its configuration
within itself by default, whether you have it as part of DialUp/NetFetch or
not. It does appear to be possible to alter the NewsHound$ConfigDir variable
in the !Boot and !Run files to point it to store its settings elsewhere if
you wish.
I was getting muddled up with POPstar, which is supplied storing its choices
in !Boot by default, but which R-Comp altered to store the choices inside
DialUp and NetFetch. Within these products POPstar has been superseded by
Hermes of course.
--
Matthew Phillips
Dundee
Martin Wuerthner
"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <7kqomkF...@mid.individual.net>,
> David Holden <Spa...@apdl.co.uk> wrote:
>>> I'm not too keen on the shotgun approach. And as I said it took a
>>> great deal of time getting everything the way I wanted it after
>>> installing 4.39. So unless there was a clue as to what is causing it
>>> I'd likely just end up with the same problem again.
>> It takes only a few minutes and if the problem goes away you *know* it's
>> something in your !Boot, if it doesn't it's elsewher. Can save hours of
>> poking around.
> It may only take a few moments to install a clean boot - but then lots of
> time to put back all the bits and pieces I have in there. Including things
> like network settings.
I think you missed David's point above. Permanently replacing !Boot is
one thing - I would not want to do it. But a quick re-boot with a
clean !Boot to find out whether a particular problem is caused by a
problem in !Boot is another thing. That is not much effort and helps
confirming the theory that there is something in !Boot that
initialises the module.
As has been suggested before, you can also try finding out where the
module is initialised by using Reporter to log all *commands executed
while booting. So far you have ignored that suggestion.
> Other thing is that presumably you'd include a CMOS reset to defaults
> after installing a clean boot? Snag is both of my LCD monitors show out of
> range when I do this.
I have no idea why you would want to reset your CMOS. You only ever
need to do that when installing a new ROM.
Dave Plowman (News)
Martin Wuerthner <spam...@mw-software.com> wrote:
> As has been suggested before, you can also try finding out where the
> module is initialised by using Reporter to log all *commands executed
> while booting. So far you have ignored that suggestion.
No - I've tried to do it following the instructions. I then get an error
message saying boot can't find it.
> > Other thing is that presumably you'd include a CMOS reset to defaults
> > after installing a clean boot? Snag is both of my LCD monitors show
> > out of range when I do this.
> I have no idea why you would want to reset your CMOS. You only ever
> need to do that when installing a new ROM.
Given this seems to be a problem with modules is it such a bad idea?
--
*How much deeper would the oceans be without sponges? *
Martin Wuerthner
"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <f37b3bb2...@bach.planiverse.com>,
> Martin Wuerthner <spam...@mw-software.com> wrote:
>> As has been suggested before, you can also try finding out where the
>> module is initialised by using Reporter to log all *commands executed
>> while booting. So far you have ignored that suggestion.
> No - I've tried to do it following the instructions. I then get an error
> message saying boot can't find it.
So, you have run Reporter from its permanent location on your hard
disc and then enabled the "Start Reporter in Boot.!Run" option?
Maybe you have only enabled various boot logging options without
enabling the option to actually run Reporter? That would give you a
"File 'Report' not found." error. NB: "Report" not "!Reporter", so
this does not mean that Reporter was not found.
Michael Finlay
Steve Fryatt <ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
> !NewsDir is still a shared resource (or it was, when M-Pro first came out),
> and !Boot.Resources is for shared resources according to Acorn. There may
> be better places, but they all require a level of user-knowledge to set up:
> storing the data inside !Messenger is even worse than in !Boot.
You have me puzzled here, Steve. I've just checked and I have !NewsDir
inside !Messenger where it has never caused me any bother. Why should
it not be there? Should I move it or leave well-enough alone?
Mike
--
druck
> You have me puzzled here, Steve. I've just checked and I have !NewsDir
> inside !Messenger where it has never caused me any bother. Why should
> it not be there?
The !NewsDir inside !Messenger is an empty template and not the one your
data is stored in.
> Should I move it or leave well-enough alone?
Unless you know what you are doing...
---druck
Chris Evans
<URL:mailto:j.peaco...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Chris Evans wrote:
>
> > In article <mpro.ks8ofw03...@stevefryatt.org.uk>, Steve Fryatt
> > <URL:mailto:ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >> !NewsDir is still a shared resource (or it was, when M-Pro first came out),
> >> and !Boot.Resources is for shared resources according to Acorn. There may
> >> be better places, but they all require a level of user-knowledge to set up:
> >> storing the data inside !Messenger is even worse than in !Boot.
> >
> > Why worse? not ideal, but many of the problems users have would go away.
> > In fact storing the data within the application is to my mind the next most
> > intuative. The most intuative being, stored in the same directory as the app.
>
> Having the config files in the applications just makes it easier to
> accidently delete or loose your configuration when upgrading
> applications or switching between versions.
>
> It also means you need to run application from a writable file system.
> This could exclude network setups or running applications directly
> within an archive.
>
> The usual RISC OS setup isn't really ideal, what we have is:
>
> Non-persistent temporary data: !Scrap
> Persistent, user specific data: !Boot.Choices
>
> This doesn't leave anywhere for read/write persistent system-wide data
> so it usually gets dumped in Resources or !Scrap.
Good points, but !NewsDir isn't system-wide data.
> The idea of a !Cache directory [1,2] which could be used for this has
> been floated in the past. Similarly to !Scrap, it could be located
> anywhere, as long as it was booted on start up. It would allow people
> who care to move it out of !Boot and those who don't not to worry
> about it.
>
> The problem is of course that there needs to be a consensus amongst
> application writers to use it.
A recommendation from Acorn may have been succesful, I suspect ROL or ROOL
don't carry the authority.
> James
>
> [1] http://www.snowstone.org.uk/riscos/
> [2] I think a less specific name would be better, "Cache" doesn't
> really suggest data persistence, maybe "Persist".
>
Chris Evans
<URL:mailto:da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <ant29171...@client.cjemicros.co.uk>,
> Chris Evans <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <50b1e93...@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman (News)
> > <URL:mailto:da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> > > In article <7kqomkF...@mid.individual.net>,
> > > David Holden <Spa...@apdl.co.uk> wrote:
> > > > > I'm not too keen on the shotgun approach. And as I said it took a
> > > > > great deal of time getting everything the way I wanted it after
> > > > > installing 4.39. So unless there was a clue as to what is causing it
> > > > > I'd likely just end up with the same problem again.
> > >
> > > > It takes only a few minutes and if the problem goes away you *know*
> > > > it's something in your !Boot, if it doesn't it's elsewher. Can save
> > > > hours of poking around.
> > >
> > > It may only take a few moments to install a clean boot - but then lots
> > > of time to put back all the bits and pieces I have in there. Including
> > > things like network settings.
>
> > But if you make a backup copy of $.!boot after every major upgrade and
> > then periodically, all or nearly all of your custom settings would be
> > there.
>
> I do have a copy of this. But there will still be things missing.
Which is why people are suggesting trying to copy one in temporarily as it
confirm or not if the problem is in $.!Boot
> Not
> organised enough to do regular backups.
> >
> > > Other thing is that presumably you'd include a CMOS reset to defaults
> > > after installing a clean boot? Snag is both of my LCD monitors show
> > > out of range when I do this.
>
> > You do have to type it blind but it is straight forward when you know
> > how:
>
> > F12 *con. sync 0 RETURN RETURN
>
> > Fixes that 95+% of the time
>
> > *con. monitor. 3
>
> > is very occasionaly also needed.
>
> Not with 4.39. First you have to get to the command line.
All versions require F12 to get to the command line
> But the easiest
> way is to use a TV with a VGA input - they seem to lockup ok. Just adds to
> the hassle as there isn't one in this room.
F12
*con. monitor. 3
*con. sync 0
RETURN
RETURN
I find that a lot less hassle than moving a screen around!
Rob Kendrick
James Peacock <j.peaco...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> The idea of a !Cache directory [1,2] which could be used for this has
> been floated in the past. Similarly to !Scrap, it could be located
> anywhere, as long as it was booted on start up. It would allow people
> who care to move it out of !Boot and those who don't not to worry
> about it.
>
> The problem is of course that there needs to be a consensus amongst
> application writers to use it.
I wrote the original version of !Cache as a proof of concept, as the
people who for some reason put !Scrap in a RAM disc couldn't benefit
from what caching NetSurf uses. There were plenty of other ideas for
things that could be stored in it, too.
Adam took the idea on and further, but as you say, I don't know of any
software that actually uses it (NetSurf certainly doesn't.)
I still think the idea's a good one, though.
B.
Michael Finlay
druck <ne...@druck.org.uk> wrote:
>> You have me puzzled here, Steve. I've just checked and I have !NewsDir
>> inside !Messenger where it has never caused me any bother. Why should
>> it not be there?
> The !NewsDir inside !Messenger is an empty template and not the one your
> data is stored in.
You are correct. After another search, I've found it in
!Boot.Resources.
>> Should I move it or leave well-enough alone?
> Unless you know what you are doing...
O.K. I'll leave it there. Thanks for the advice, Druck
Mike
--
Chris Evans
For the reasons given earlier I strongly recommend:
Quiting !Messenger
move !NewDir to the same directory as !Messenger resides
Shutdown
Restart
Reload !Messenger and you will see everything is O.K.
Chris Hughes
Chris Evans <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <mpro.ks8ofw03...@stevefryatt.org.uk>, Steve Fryatt
> <URL:mailto:ne...@stevefryatt.org.uk> wrote:
>> Chris Evans <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not a messenger user myself and didn't know it could be changed, but
>>> the default is I believe within $.!Boot as I have seen dozens of customers
>>> with !NewsDir there.
>>
>> The installer stops and asks the user to drag !NewsDir out to a sensible
>> place on disc; if they choose not to, it ends up in !Boot from what I
>> remember. It's hard to see what else it could do, short of refusing to
>> install (which wouldn't be populat either).
> Simple, default to something more sensible.
May and maybe not.
> New users will nearly always go with the default because they don't
> understand the implications and hence the disireability of not using it
> and/or they trust the author to be sensible.
> It has cost a number of our customers time and money!
> If we are talking customers on the phone through problems we will often get
> them to make a copy of $.!Boot before getting them to change things...
Poor advice then! Since you already should be asking more questions
before getting them to copy it. i.e what other software do they have
etc..
> I have also seen customers run out of disc space because they sensibly
> regularly keep backups on the same drive of their $.!Boot
Not very sensible at all, if the drive goes you lose both!!! Backups
should be to another drive ideally or CD or network.
>>> A more sensible default is what is required, as many (most?) users will
>>> not change the default, many customers/news group posters have said they
>>> don't know where it is stored or realise the stupidity of its position.
>>
>> !NewsDir is still a shared resource (or it was, when M-Pro first came out),
>> and !Boot.Resources is for shared resources according to Acorn. There may
>> be better places, but they all require a level of user-knowledge to set up:
>> storing the data inside !Messenger is even worse than in !Boot.
> Why worse? not ideal, but many of the problems users have would go away.
> In fact storing the data within the application is to my mind the next most
> intuative. The most intuative being, stored in the same directory as the app.
I would disagree with you.
--
Chris Hughes
Chris Hughes
Chris Evans <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
Oh yes it is.
>> The idea of a !Cache directory [1,2] which could be used for this has
>> been floated in the past. Similarly to !Scrap, it could be located
>> anywhere, as long as it was booted on start up. It would allow people
>> who care to move it out of !Boot and those who don't not to worry
>> about it.
>>
>> The problem is of course that there needs to be a consensus amongst
>> application writers to use it.
> A recommendation from Acorn may have been succesful, I suspect ROL or ROOL
> don't carry the authority.
total rubbish.
--
Chris Hughes
Chris Hughes
"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <7kqomkF...@mid.individual.net>,
> David Holden <Spa...@apdl.co.uk> wrote:
>>> I'm not too keen on the shotgun approach. And as I said it took a
>>> great deal of time getting everything the way I wanted it after
>>> installing 4.39. So unless there was a clue as to what is causing it
>>> I'd likely just end up with the same problem again.
>> It takes only a few minutes and if the problem goes away you *know* it's
>> something in your !Boot, if it doesn't it's elsewher. Can save hours of
>> poking around.
> It may only take a few moments to install a clean boot - but then lots of
> time to put back all the bits and pieces I have in there. Including things
> like network settings.
You mis-understand it seems! The idea is to initially temporary put a
clean boot on the machince with the bear minimum of changes (Unipod
stuff only maybe) and test the unplugging of the module, if it stays
unplugged then you know it was something in your original tweaked
!boot that was causing the problem and then you know where to look to
fix your issue.
> Other thing is that presumably you'd include a CMOS reset to defaults
> after installing a clean boot? Snag is both of my LCD monitors show out of
> range when I do this.
Why?
--
Chris Hughes
Chris Hughes
Chris Evans <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <2e2952b...@orpheusmail.co.uk>, Michael Finlay
> <URL:mailto:mj...@orpheusmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <4AEAC943...@druck.org.uk>
>> druck <ne...@druck.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>> You have me puzzled here, Steve. I've just checked and I have !NewsDir
>>>> inside !Messenger where it has never caused me any bother. Why should
>>>> it not be there?
>>
>>> The !NewsDir inside !Messenger is an empty template and not the one your
>>> data is stored in.
>>
>> You are correct. After another search, I've found it in
>> !Boot.Resources.
>>
>>>> Should I move it or leave well-enough alone?
>>
>>> Unless you know what you are doing...
>>
>> O.K. I'll leave it there. Thanks for the advice, Druck
> For the reasons given earlier I strongly recommend:
> Quiting !Messenger
> move !NewDir to the same directory as !Messenger resides
> Shutdown
> Restart
> Reload !Messenger and you will see everything is O.K.
So Chris are you going to provide support etc to him in future when or
if things break.
If it works it should be left alone.
If your unhappy with it talk to R-Comp and make a sensible suggest for
a new location as standard, but since it is a central resource its
current in it correct location, whether you like it or not.
--
Chris Hughes
Dave Symes
a clean !Boot? (I'm on RO 6.16)
Dave
--
Dave Triffid
Martin Wuerthner
> In article <2e2952b...@orpheusmail.co.uk>, Michael Finlay
> <URL:mailto:mj...@orpheusmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> You are correct. After another search, I've found it in
>> !Boot.Resources.
>> [...]
>> O.K. I'll leave it there. Thanks for the advice, Druck
> For the reasons given earlier I strongly recommend:
> Quiting !Messenger
> move !NewDir to the same directory as !Messenger resides
> Shutdown
> Restart
> Reload !Messenger and you will see everything is O.K.
Not really. The above sequence would break the setup of many users.
When moving !NewsDir out of !Boot.Resources, manual steps have to be
taken to ensure that it has been seen by the Filer before Messenger is
run. Moving it to the same directory as Messenger will not ensure that
in general. If Messenger is run by the boot sequence or via an
application launcher, its parent directory has typically not been
opened.
Dave Plowman (News)
Chris Evans <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
> > Not with 4.39. First you have to get to the command line.
> All versions require F12 to get to the command line
> > But the easiest way is to use a TV with a VGA input - they seem to
> > lockup ok. Just adds to the hassle as there isn't one in this room.
> F12
> *con. monitor. 3
> *con. sync 0
> RETURN
> RETURN
> I find that a lot less hassle than moving a screen around!
Try it with 4.39. ;-)
--
*If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.*
Dave Plowman (News)
Chris Hughes <ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
> > It may only take a few moments to install a clean boot - but then lots
> > of time to put back all the bits and pieces I have in there. Including
> > things like network settings.
> You mis-understand it seems! The idea is to initially temporary put a
> clean boot on the machince with the bear minimum of changes (Unipod
> stuff only maybe) and test the unplugging of the module, if it stays
> unplugged then you know it was something in your original tweaked
> !boot that was causing the problem and then you know where to look to
> fix your issue.
I'm with you now. Tried it - no difference. Machine still hangs at boot
and unplugging CDFSSoftATAPI miraculously re-plugs itself after a re-boot.
> > Other thing is that presumably you'd include a CMOS reset to defaults
> > after installing a clean boot? Snag is both of my LCD monitors show
> > out of range when I do this.
> Why?
Because most modern monitors are out of range at those frequencies?
--
*How much deeper would the oceans be without sponges? *
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
Chris Evans
Actually it is in my interest that he and others don't follow my advice as
it will mean more paid work for me.
At least once a month we are sent computers that no longer boot correctly, if
the user had made regular copies of $.!Boot many of them would not have needed
to be sent to us.
> If it works it should be left alone.
Not making backups of any type works for years for many people suggesting a
way that enables them to make backups easier must be a better way of doing
things.
> If your unhappy with it talk to R-Comp and make a sensible suggest for
> a new location as standard, but since it is a central resource its
> current in it correct location, whether you like it or not.
I can think of no other application that keeps its data within $.!Boot
I find it very strange that you are defending something that costs users a
lot of wasted time and money.
It can very significantly increase the size of $.!Boot
This increase makes it more awkward to make backups
So backups (local or off disc) are taken less frequently
It may have not caused you any problems but I have seen it happen on
numerous occasions.
Chris Evans
<URL:mailto:ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <ant30100...@client.cjemicros.co.uk>
> Chris Evans <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
> > Good points, but !NewsDir isn't system-wide data.
>
> Oh yes it is.
Err Only Messenger and its associated apps need to know were it is. I can't
see that as being system wide data. Anyway system variable alow other apps
to know where things are so it only needs to be seen by the filer.
> >> The idea of a !Cache directory [1,2] which could be used for this has
> >> been floated in the past. Similarly to !Scrap, it could be located
> >> anywhere, as long as it was booted on start up. It would allow people
> >> who care to move it out of !Boot and those who don't not to worry
> >> about it.
> >>
> >> The problem is of course that there needs to be a consensus amongst
> >> application writers to use it.
>
> > A recommendation from Acorn may have been succesful, I suspect ROL or ROOL
> > don't carry the authority.
>
> total rubbish.
Which of the three opinions are you disagreeing with?
If if ROL and or ROOL did command the authority the vast majority of apps
are not going to be updated so the point is to all intents and purposes
moot.
Chris Evans
<URL:mailto:da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
> It's been mentioned a lot in this thread, but where exactly would one find
> a clean !Boot? (I'm on RO 6.16)
Unfortuantly ROL didn't put a copy on the CD/website, a bad ommission!
As soon as I've installed an incremental OS update I make a copy[1] of
$.!Boot & apps etc if changed .
[1] Local and off computer.
Chris Evans
<URL:mailto:ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <ant29114...@client.cjemicros.co.uk>
> Chris Evans <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > New users will nearly always go with the default because they don't
> > understand the implications and hence the disireability of not using it
> > and/or they trust the author to be sensible.
>
> > It has cost a number of our customers time and money!
> > If we are talking customers on the phone through problems we will often get
> > them to make a copy of $.!Boot before getting them to change things...
>
> Poor advice then!
I didn't go through the complete sequence of the advice we would give.
moving to a known working !Boot would be only given when the information
given pointed to a $.!Boot problem.
> Since you already should be asking more questions
> before getting them to copy it. i.e what other software do they have
> etc..
>
> > I have also seen customers run out of disc space because they sensibly
> > regularly keep backups on the same drive of their $.!Boot
>
> Not very sensible at all, if the drive goes you lose both!!! Backups
> should be to another drive ideally or CD or network.
There should always be backups off the hard drive, but numerous customers
have told me they can't access the backups because they had a problem
booting. Also it is so much more conveinent (but should never be done
instead of off disc copies)
Even with backups of $.!Boot that doesn't always give you access to off
drive backups which is why we recommend keeping on Floppy enough
utilities/configure files etc to get access to their backups i.e. copies of
!ZipFS etc
> >>> A more sensible default is what is required, as many (most?) users will
> >>> not change the default, many customers/news group posters have said they
> >>> don't know where it is stored or realise the stupidity of its position.
> >>
> >> !NewsDir is still a shared resource (or it was, when M-Pro first came out),
> >> and !Boot.Resources is for shared resources according to Acorn. There may
> >> be better places, but they all require a level of user-knowledge to set up:
> >> storing the data inside !Messenger is even worse than in !Boot.
>
> > Why worse? not ideal, but many of the problems users have would go away.
> > In fact storing the data within the application is to my mind the next most
> > intuative. The most intuative being, stored in the same directory as the app.
>
> I would disagree with you.
O.K. So what would be intuative to you?
I can't believe anyone would intuatively think $.!Boot.anything
though experience of badly written programs may suggest trying there.
Chris Evans
<URL:mailto:spam...@mw-software.com> wrote:
> In message <ant30142...@client.cjemicros.co.uk>
> Chris Evans <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > In article <2e2952b...@orpheusmail.co.uk>, Michael Finlay
> > <URL:mailto:mj...@orpheusmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >> You are correct. After another search, I've found it in
> >> !Boot.Resources.
> >> [...]
> >> O.K. I'll leave it there. Thanks for the advice, Druck
>
> > For the reasons given earlier I strongly recommend:
>
> > Quiting !Messenger
> > move !NewDir to the same directory as !Messenger resides
> > Shutdown
> > Restart
>
> > Reload !Messenger and you will see everything is O.K.
>
> Not really. The above sequence would break the setup of many users.
>
> When moving !NewsDir out of !Boot.Resources, manual steps have to be
> taken to ensure that it has been seen by the Filer before Messenger is
> run. Moving it to the same directory as Messenger will not ensure that
> in general. If Messenger is run by the boot sequence or via an
> application launcher, its parent directory has typically not been
> opened.
Sorry I must have missunderstood one of the other postings.
A small mod to messenger should be able to fix that.
Dave Plowman (News)
Dave Symes <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
> It's been mentioned a lot in this thread, but where exactly would one
> find a clean !Boot? (I'm on RO 6.16)
Dunno 6.16 but on 4.39 it's on the CD. Well that's what I used.
--
*The severity of the itch is proportional to the reach *
Peter Naulls
> In article <50b26ad...@triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes
> <URL:mailto:da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
>> It's been mentioned a lot in this thread, but where exactly would one find
>> a clean !Boot? (I'm on RO 6.16)
>
> Unfortuantly ROL didn't put a copy on the CD/website, a bad ommission!
>
> As soon as I've installed an incremental OS update I make a copy[1] of
> $.!Boot & apps etc if changed .
>
> [1] Local and off computer.
That might be good for reference. The problem here is that any "clean"
boot right now is probably missing lots of updates - perhaps less so
for most recent RO6 versions - but certainly true for the RO4 ROL
Boot and the RO5 Castle boot.
ROOL have made some effort on this:
Obviously this is right now RO5 only (and the version I tried has
various problems), and I appreciate that there are some substantial
additions to the ROL one. However, a package-managed Boot sequence
that was consistent and worked on all versions of RISC OS (back to
RO4 anyway) has a lot of appeal.
Chris Hughes
Dave Symes <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
> It's been mentioned a lot in this thread, but where exactly would one find
> a clean !Boot? (I'm on RO 6.16)
Depends on your version of the OS, but either on the CD or in the
download or on the website in the case of 6.14 since it has not
changed for 6.16
--
Chris Hughes
Chris Hughes
Chris Evans <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
Which will get removed when they get an update to Messenger Pro
potentially, which no doubt will generate more revenue for you, since
its now broken and needs repairing!
--
Chris Hughes
Chris Hughes
Chris Evans <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <d65767b2...@o2.co.uk>, Chris Hughes
> <URL:mailto:ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ant30142...@client.cjemicros.co.uk>
>> Chris Evans <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
[snip]
>>
>>> For the reasons given earlier I strongly recommend:
>>
>>> Quiting !Messenger
>>> move !NewDir to the same directory as !Messenger resides
>>> Shutdown
>>> Restart
>>
>>> Reload !Messenger and you will see everything is O.K.
>>
>> So Chris are you going to provide support etc to him in future when or
>> if things break.
> Actually it is in my interest that he and others don't follow my advice as
> it will mean more paid work for me.
Ah the truth is out. you make money!
> At least once a month we are sent computers that no longer boot correctly, if
> the user had made regular copies of $.!Boot many of them would not
> have needed
> to be sent to us.
Maybe you need to promote the proper use of backups then, but that
would lose you money.....
>> If it works it should be left alone.
> Not making backups of any type works for years for many people suggesting a
> way that enables them to make backups easier must be a better way of doing
> things.
I was not suggesting no backups are made.
>> If your unhappy with it talk to R-Comp and make a sensible suggest for
>> a new location as standard, but since it is a central resource its
>> current in it correct location, whether you like it or not.
> I can think of no other application that keeps its data within $.!Boot
I can, but its not Messenger pro's application its a central resource
that can be used by other email systems thus its in the resources
area, yet there might be a better way. But thats the way we have it
now.
> I find it very strange that you are defending something that costs users a
> lot of wasted time and money.
Only if they bring them to you and you charge them.
> It can very significantly increase the size of $.!Boot
Agreed it can, but.....
> This increase makes it more awkward to make backups
> So backups (local or off disc) are taken less frequently
Not if you use the correct tools for the job.
> It may have not caused you any problems but I have seen it happen on
> numerous occasions.
Maybe because I know about backup systems, etc.. and use them.
--
Chris Hughes
Chris Hughes
Chris Evans <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <50b26ad...@triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes
> <URL:mailto:da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
>> It's been mentioned a lot in this thread, but where exactly would one find
>> a clean !Boot? (I'm on RO 6.16)
> Unfortuantly ROL didn't put a copy on the CD/website, a bad ommission!
yes they do. I know because I used it to fix someone's RiscPC, where
they had mixed their Virtual RPC !boot with their version on the
RiscPC, it was quicker to resinstate a basic !boot and add back the
necessary bits.
[snip]
--
Chris Hughes
Dave Symes
> Dave Symes <da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
> > It's been mentioned a lot in this thread, but where exactly would one
> > find a clean !Boot? (I'm on RO 6.16)
> Dunno 6.16 but on 4.39 it's on the CD. Well that's what I used.
6.16 didn't come on a CD it was a download... I must look on the previous
6.nn versions which were on CD.
Dave
--
Dave Triffid
Dave Symes
Chris Evans <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <50b26ad...@triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes
> <URL:mailto:da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
> > It's been mentioned a lot in this thread, but where exactly would one
> > find a clean !Boot? (I'm on RO 6.16)
> Unfortuantly ROL didn't put a copy on the CD/website, a bad ommission!
> As soon as I've installed an incremental OS update I make a copy[1] of
> $.!Boot & apps etc if changed .
> [1] Local and off computer.
> Chris Evans
Mmnnn! I have copies of the !Boot directory that go back a number of years.
Before I upgrade a Select RO version, I always mke a copy of the !Boot to
another backup harddrive.
But these are not "Clean" copies, are they? As they've evolved with the
OS versions since the UniBoot first came out.
Maybe I misunderstand what y'all mean by a clean boot.
Dave
--
Dave Triffid
Steve Fryatt
> In article <42dc65b2...@o2.co.uk>, Chris Hughes
> <URL:mailto:ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
> > In message <ant30100...@client.cjemicros.co.uk>
> > Chris Evans <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > Good points, but !NewsDir isn't system-wide data.
> >
> > Oh yes it is.
>
> Err Only Messenger and its associated apps need to know were it is.
Not so. NewsDir started out as a storage area used by several news and mail
apps: NewsBase was one example, and there are probably others. It certainly
pre-dates M-Pro, and possibly the old Freeware Messenger as wall.
The Freeware Messenger used NewsBase, so it also used NewsDir. When M-Pro
came along with its own message database, that also used NewsDir. That
doesn't make NewsDir Messenger's -- in fact, the internal structure of
!NewsDir makes this fact very obvious.
These days, things like BookMaker still use NewsDir, at least for reading
settings.
> I can't see that as being system wide data. Anyway system variable alow
> other apps to know where things are so it only needs to be seen by the
> filer.
Correct: the problem is getting it somewhere that it is seen. As I said
before, having written a number of installation guides (and dealt with the
feedback), this is not always an easy concept to get across.
--
Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England
James Peacock
> In article <b3c815b2...@iyonix.lan>, James Peacock
> <URL:mailto:j.peaco...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> Chris Evans wrote:
>> >
>> > Why worse? not ideal, but many of the problems users have would go away.
>> > In fact storing the data within the application is to my mind the
>> > next most
>> > intuative. The most intuative being, stored in the same directory as
>> > the app.
[snip]
>> The usual RISC OS setup isn't really ideal, what we have is:
>>
>> Non-persistent temporary data: !Scrap
>> Persistent, user specific data: !Boot.Choices
>>
>> This doesn't leave anywhere for read/write persistent system-wide data
>> so it usually gets dumped in Resources or !Scrap.
>
> Good points, but !NewsDir isn't system-wide data.
It's a bit of an odd one. There is both user specific and shared data
in there. As such I would consider it system-wide.
>> The idea of a !Cache directory [1,2] which could be used for this has
>> been floated in the past. Similarly to !Scrap, it could be located
>> anywhere, as long as it was booted on start up. It would allow people
>> who care to move it out of !Boot and those who don't not to worry
>> about it.
>>
>> The problem is of course that there needs to be a consensus amongst
>> application writers to use it.
>
> A recommendation from Acorn may have been succesful, I suspect ROL or ROOL
> don't carry the authority.
It could be done. Firstly, looking at the ROOL forums, the boot
sequence is being looked at so it would be a possible addition there.
In addition a skeleton !Boot containing a !Cache or whatever it will
be could be distributed for a standard boot merge with applications
which need to use it.
I would suggest that the existence of ROOL makes such things easier to
do as it offers a single focal point to discuss, document and
distribute extensions. It is more that just RISC OS 5.
James
Steve Fryatt
> In article <f4796cb2...@bach.planiverse.com>, Martin Wuerthner
> <URL:mailto:spam...@mw-software.com> wrote:
> > In message <ant30142...@client.cjemicros.co.uk>
> > Chris Evans <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > For the reasons given earlier I strongly recommend:
> >
> > > Quiting !Messenger move !NewDir to the same directory as !Messenger
> > > resides Shutdown Restart
> >
> > > Reload !Messenger and you will see everything is O.K.
> >
> > Not really. The above sequence would break the setup of many users.
> >
> > When moving !NewsDir out of !Boot.Resources, manual steps have to be
> > taken to ensure that it has been seen by the Filer before Messenger is
> > run. Moving it to the same directory as Messenger will not ensure that
> > in general. If Messenger is run by the boot sequence or via an
> > application launcher, its parent directory has typically not been
> > opened.
>
> Sorry I must have missunderstood one of the other postings.
>
> A small mod to messenger should be able to fix that.
No, because other parts of the Internet system also need to be able to see
NewsDir before they start up.
If you move NewsDir out of !Boot.Resources, then you have to manually add
!NewsDir to the 'Look At' list within Configure, in such a location that it
is seen before Messenger *and* any mail and news transports. Given that
Messenger works with a wide range of transports (both supported by R-Comp
and not), explaining this to someone who doesn't understand the issues would
be very difficult.
Can you really not see why this isn't something that any sane software
developer is going to try and advise users to do unless the users are savvy
enough to understand all the possible interactions and pitfalls?
S G
>> The idea is to initially temporary put a clean boot on the machince
> Tried it - no difference. Machine still hangs at boot and unplugging
> CDFSSoftATAPI miraculously re-plugs itself after a re-boot.
I'd search for ~CDReinit and remove all instances of it (from the temp.
clean boot).
--
Stewart Goldwater
http://janusg.co.nr
Dave Plowman (News)
> >> The idea is to initially temporary put a clean boot on the machince
> > Tried it - no difference. Machine still hangs at boot and unplugging
> > CDFSSoftATAPI miraculously re-plugs itself after a re-boot.
> I'd search for ~CDReinit and remove all instances of it (from the temp.
> clean boot).
Thanks - but did that earlier.
--
*Why is it that most nudists are people you don't want to see naked?*
Matthew Phillips
I really don't think this is as complicated as some people are making out.
Correct, it isn't just a simple matter of moving !NewsDir to somewhere
outside !Boot. You need the additional step of adding !NewsDir to the "Look
At" section of the !Boot configuration.
But that's all you have to do, and you only have to do it once. And it's
pretty easy to explain how to do it.
!NewsDir does not have to be seen before the other internet applications are
*seen*. It just has to be seen before any of them are *run*. And putting it
in "Look at" achieves that.
Chris has clearly had quite a lot of users who have had problems with their
e-mail disappearing after installing a clean !Boot. I think we have to take
his word that it is a genuine problem for ordinary users. He's probably got
more experience of this than any of the rest of us.
Yes, !NewsDir is a system-wide resource, but it's the only example that I
know of an item found in !Boot.Resources which contains users' personal data
(as opposed to users' settings, which is a less serious matter). I don't
think it's a good place to keep it.
--
Matthew Phillips
Dundee
Chris Hughes
Matthew Phillips <mn...@sinenomine.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
Its not the complication that really the issue here.
> Correct, it isn't just a simple matter of moving !NewsDir to somewhere
> outside !Boot. You need the additional step of adding !NewsDir to the "Look
> At" section of the !Boot configuration.
Yes, but who provides the suppport for the application it is supplied
with when its no longer in the standard location for it. You, Chris
Evans or the supplier of the software.
> But that's all you have to do, and you only have to do it once. And it's
> pretty easy to explain how to do it.
Is it? we have already seen at least one example where it clearly was
not in this thread. If you are "computer literate" or used to tweaking
your computer etc. its probably second nature, but normal end-users,
will not want to play with things they don't understand in case they
break it.
> !NewsDir does not have to be seen before the other internet applications are
> *seen*. It just has to be seen before any of them are *run*. And putting it
> in "Look at" achieves that.
Ok no one disputes that.
> Chris has clearly had quite a lot of users who have had problems with their
> e-mail disappearing after installing a clean !Boot. I think we have to take
> his word that it is a genuine problem for ordinary users. He's probably got
> more experience of this than any of the rest of us.
No he has said they have had problem with their !boot for whatever
reason, and seems to like blaming !NewsDir for the issues.
> Yes, !NewsDir is a system-wide resource, but it's the only example that I
> know of an item found in !Boot.Resources which contains users' personal data
> (as opposed to users' settings, which is a less serious matter). I don't
> think it's a good place to keep it.
If its a System wide resource and you agree it is, then it belongs in
!Boot.Resources
There are other system wide resources in their as well. !ConfiX,
!Fonts, !Twain. etc..
--
Chris Hughes
Matthew Phillips
on 31 Oct 2009 Chris Hughes wrote:
> In message <489bc7b25...@sinenomine.freeserve.co.uk>
> Matthew Phillips <mn...@sinenomine.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > In message <mpro.kscehv03...@stevefryatt.org.uk>
> > on 30 Oct 2009 Steve Fryatt wrote:
>
> > > No, because other parts of the Internet system also need to be able to
> > > see NewsDir before they start up.
> > >
> > > If you move NewsDir out of !Boot.Resources, then you have to manually
> > > add !NewsDir to the 'Look At' list within Configure, in such a location
> > > that it is seen before Messenger *and* any mail and news transports.
> > > Given that Messenger works with a wide range of transports (both
> > > supported by R-Comp and not), explaining this to someone who doesn't
> > > understand the issues would be very difficult.
> > >
> > > Can you really not see why this isn't something that any sane software
> > > developer is going to try and advise users to do unless the users are
> > > savvy enough to understand all the possible interactions and pitfalls?
>
> > I really don't think this is as complicated as some people are making out.
>
> Its not the complication that really the issue here.
It seems to be the main issue here, as far as ordinary users are concerned.
There are people arguing from an ideological point of view that system-wide
resources, like !NewsDir, should be in !Boot.Resources, and there are people
arguing from an ideological point of view that user data, like !NewsDir,
should not be kept inside !Boot. These two viewpoints are completely
irreconcilable. Both principles are widely accepted. So the main thing that
matters is the complication for the user.
> > Correct, it isn't just a simple matter of moving !NewsDir to somewhere
> > outside !Boot. You need the additional step of adding !NewsDir to the
> > "Look At" section of the !Boot configuration.
>
> Yes, but who provides the suppport for the application it is supplied
> with when its no longer in the standard location for it. You, Chris
> Evans or the supplier of the software.
I think that Chris and I would prefer the suppliers of the software to advise
users to put it somewhere else and provide support for that. But Chris seems
to be happy to help sort users out (for a fee, perhaps). I'd rather be
developing software....
> > !NewsDir does not have to be seen before the other internet applications
> > are *seen*. It just has to be seen before any of them are *run*. And
> > putting it in "Look at" achieves that.
>
> Ok no one disputes that.
I made this remark because Steve said that it needed to be "in such a
location that it is seen before Messenger *and* any mail and news
transports." I'm sure he knows that it only has to be seen before they are
run, but I just wanted to make that clear for any less knowledgeable readers
following this thread (I expect they've given up by now!).
> > Chris has clearly had quite a lot of users who have had problems with
> > their e-mail disappearing after installing a clean !Boot. I think we
> > have to take his word that it is a genuine problem for ordinary users.
> > He's probably got more experience of this than any of the rest of us.
>
> No he has said they have had problem with their !boot for whatever
> reason, and seems to like blaming !NewsDir for the issues.
That wasn't my interpretation, but I think I'd prefer to let him speak for
himself on this one.
> > Yes, !NewsDir is a system-wide resource, but it's the only example that I
> > know of an item found in !Boot.Resources which contains users' personal
> > data (as opposed to users' settings, which is a less serious matter). I
> > don't think it's a good place to keep it.
>
> If its a System wide resource and you agree it is, then it belongs in
> !Boot.Resources
>
> There are other system wide resources in their as well. !ConfiX,
> !Fonts, !Twain. etc..
And none of these contain user data. I don't believe Acorn ever intended
anyone to store user data inside !Boot. There are several reasons why doing
this is a bad idea. As Chris has pointed out, it makes taking a copy of
!Boot rather harder than it ought to be (given limited storage), and having a
working copy of !Boot elsewhere on your hard drive is useful for recovering
from problems with OS upgrades, particularly softloaded ones like Select.
Also, it does not fit well with good practice for backups. A good backup
strategy usually requires user data to be backed up very frequently, but
there is less need to back up operating system components and applications
with such high frequency. When they are mixed up inside !Boot it is more
effort to achieve this. Admittedly, many of us do not segregate data and
applications on our hard discs (Impact, for example, encourages the user to
store the data alongside the application in the same directory), and the best
backup strategy, if you can afford the time and storage, is to back up
*everything* frequently. Nowadays on RISC OS the user data is by far the
biggest component, what with images from digital cameras, etc.
Finally, it makes things harder when transferring your data from one machine
to another. If you buy a new RISC OS computer, for the most part you don't
delve inside !Boot, because it has been supplied with a !Boot suitable for
the OS version. You reinstall your applications, and you copy your
directories of files, your data, across to the new machine. But !NewsDir is
an exception, if not the only exception to this arrangement.
That's why I feel it should not be in !Boot.
I'm happy to accept that many users will not wish to meddle with moving it,
but I would have preferred that R-Comp had not shipped it this way. There's
not much point arguing about that aspect here as R-Comp rarely pop up on
newsgroups. And I am quite happy that Chris offer support and help users
move it out of !Boot if that helps with whatever problems they are
experiencing.
There are arguments each way of course. You could say "but if the user
installs a clean !Boot then !NewsDir won't be in 'Look at' and everything
will go wrong". True, but at least they haven't disposed of !NewsDir by
deleting it with the duff !Boot they have just replaced. True enough, if
!NewsDir is visible to the user, the user may think "here's something that's
taking up a lot of space, which I never use" and delete it anyway! But
they'd have a better chance of having it on a backup of all their data,
wouldn't they!
I think I'd better stop there for this thread, and go and do something more
useful! Just to summarise, as a precaution against starting a flame war:
1) I'm not an idiot
2) You're not an idiot either
3) I think I'm right in storing !NewsDor outside !Boot
4) I accept that other people have differing opinions on this, and I'm happy
for them to do what they feel is right for them
5) I'm not trying to win you over to my way of thinking, but instead just to
point out some of the issues so that we all understand them better to help
users take an informed decision.
As others have said, if this argument is to be settled, we really need
someone with the clout of Acorn to pronounce one way or the other on the
matters of principle. A joint statement by ROOL and ROL, perhaps? I cannot
see that happening on a relatively unimportant issue like this.
--
Matthew Phillips
Dundee
Chris Hughes
Matthew Phillips <mn...@sinenomine.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <8541f7b2...@o2.co.uk>
> on 31 Oct 2009 Chris Hughes wrote:
>> In message <489bc7b25...@sinenomine.freeserve.co.uk>
>> Matthew Phillips <mn...@sinenomine.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
[snip]
>>> Yes, !NewsDir is a system-wide resource, but it's the only example that I
>>> know of an item found in !Boot.Resources which contains users' personal
>>> data (as opposed to users' settings, which is a less serious matter). I
>>> don't think it's a good place to keep it.
>>
>> If its a System wide resource and you agree it is, then it belongs in
>> !Boot.Resources
>>
>> There are other system wide resources in their as well. !ConfiX,
>> !Fonts, !Twain. etc..
> And none of these contain user data.
!Fonts contains the users fonts, Also !ConfiX contains users settings,
!UnixHome has stuff for one or two of the browsers and includes users
data - not much but never the less.
!Recyclone etc also stores stuff.
So we should move all these plus !Scrap out of !Boot.Resources then?
> I don't believe Acorn ever intended
> anyone to store user data inside !Boot. There are several reasons why doing
> this is a bad idea. As Chris has pointed out, it makes taking a copy of
> !Boot rather harder than it ought to be (given limited storage), and having a
> working copy of !Boot elsewhere on your hard drive is useful for recovering
> from problems with OS upgrades, particularly softloaded ones like Select.
>
> Also, it does not fit well with good practice for backups. A good backup
> strategy usually requires user data to be backed up very frequently, but
> there is less need to back up operating system components and applications
> with such high frequency. When they are mixed up inside !Boot it is more
> effort to achieve this. Admittedly, many of us do not segregate data and
> applications on our hard discs (Impact, for example, encourages the user to
> store the data alongside the application in the same directory), and the best
> backup strategy, if you can afford the time and storage, is to back up
> *everything* frequently. Nowadays on RISC OS the user data is by far the
> biggest component, what with images from digital cameras, etc.
Not really !SafeStore just backs up the changes here.
[snip]
--
Chris Hughes
Steve Fryatt
> In message <8541f7b2...@o2.co.uk>
> on 31 Oct 2009 Chris Hughes wrote:
>
> > In message <489bc7b25...@sinenomine.freeserve.co.uk>
> > Matthew Phillips <mn...@sinenomine.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
[!Boot, NewsDir and setting things up]
> > > I really don't think this is as complicated as some people are making
> > > out.
> >
> > Its not the complication that really the issue here.
>
> It seems to be the main issue here, as far as ordinary users are
> concerned. There are people arguing from an ideological point of view that
> system-wide resources, like !NewsDir, should be in !Boot.Resources, and
> there are people arguing from an ideological point of view that user data,
> like !NewsDir, should not be kept inside !Boot. These two viewpoints are
> completely irreconcilable. Both principles are widely accepted. So the
> main thing that matters is the complication for the user.
Just to clarify my own position: I don't *personally* think that NewsDir
should be in !Boot.Resources. It never was on my system, for all the
reasons outlined.
However, I also think it can be argued that !Boot.Resources is a reasonable
home for NewsDir, and can see that from the point of view of a software
developer, having the software installer put the resource into a default
location that doesn't require any end-user 'thought' is *very* appealing. It
simplifies the installation process, and reduces the complexity of any
instructions.
I can't remember specifics, but I know I've opted for this kind of solution
on a couple of occasions when writing installation instructions. As a
result, I've got some sympathy for R-Comp here (even if only in a kind of
"there but for the grace of God..." sense).
> > > Correct, it isn't just a simple matter of moving !NewsDir to somewhere
> > > outside !Boot. You need the additional step of adding !NewsDir to the
> > > "Look At" section of the !Boot configuration.
> >
> > Yes, but who provides the suppport for the application it is supplied
> > with when its no longer in the standard location for it. You, Chris
> > Evans or the supplier of the software.
>
> I think that Chris and I would prefer the suppliers of the software to
> advise users to put it somewhere else and provide support for that. But
> Chris seems to be happy to help sort users out (for a fee, perhaps). I'd
> rather be developing software....
Too many Chrises...
I don't think this is ever likely to be resolved, because there are two
effectively irreconciliable viewpoints: software developers want the
software to be easy to install (this seems to be particularly true of
R-Comp, who seem to promote 'one-click' solutions), while dealers who
provide long-term support want the 'technically correct' solution.
That's a generalisation, but I don't think it's too wide of the mark for
many RISC OS systems.
Now, if only we had a decent packaging system for RISC OS that was widely
accepted... [cue Peter].
:-)
> > > !NewsDir does not have to be seen before the other internet
> > > applications are *seen*. It just has to be seen before any of them
> > > are *run*. And putting it in "Look at" achieves that.
> >
> > Ok no one disputes that.
>
> I made this remark because Steve said that it needed to be "in such a
> location that it is seen before Messenger *and* any mail and news
> transports." I'm sure he knows that it only has to be seen before they
> are run, but I just wanted to make that clear for any less knowledgeable
> readers following this thread (I expect they've given up by now!).
If I did know that, I must have forgotten -- apologies.
I installed all of my transports and NewsDir into $.Internet many years ago
(and no longer even use a RISC OS-based mail and news transport system), so
it's not something I've looked at recently. I do remember getting it all
working was a bit of a black art when I did it, however (this was long
before the days of Messenger-Pro, when RISC OS-based email and news was
still something of an adventure).
It *is* necessary to have NewsDir seen before things like NetFetch kick off
a fetch, and for R-Comp that would be a consideration.
[snip]
> > > Yes, !NewsDir is a system-wide resource, but it's the only example
> > > that I know of an item found in !Boot.Resources which contains users'
> > > personal data (as opposed to users' settings, which is a less serious
> > > matter). I don't think it's a good place to keep it.
> >
> > If its a System wide resource and you agree it is, then it belongs in
> > !Boot.Resources
> >
> > There are other system wide resources in their as well. !ConfiX, !Fonts,
> > !Twain. etc..
>
> And none of these contain user data. I don't believe Acorn ever intended
> anyone to store user data inside !Boot. There are several reasons why
> doing this is a bad idea. As Chris has pointed out, it makes taking a
> copy of !Boot rather harder than it ought to be (given limited storage),
> and having a working copy of !Boot elsewhere on your hard drive is useful
> for recovering from problems with OS upgrades, particularly softloaded
> ones like Select.
>
> Also, it does not fit well with good practice for backups. A good backup
> strategy usually requires user data to be backed up very frequently, but
> there is less need to back up operating system components and applications
> with such high frequency. When they are mixed up inside !Boot it is more
> effort to achieve this.
!Boot has contained user choices, which are important to backup regularly,
for years.
> Admittedly, many of us do not segregate data and applications on our hard
> discs (Impact, for example, encourages the user to store the data
> alongside the application in the same directory), and the best backup
> strategy, if you can afford the time and storage, is to back up
> *everything* frequently. Nowadays on RISC OS the user data is by far the
> biggest component, what with images from digital cameras, etc.
This is far more true for RISC OS than other systems, in fact. On a RISC OS
box, it's entirely possible to keep a backup disc image up to date while the
OS is running and switch to that in the event of a problem. On other
systems, you need some kind of off-line disc cloning.
The first line of my RISC OS backup has long been a second internal disc
which gets mirrored from the primary one via SyncDiscs or similar on a
regular basis.
> Finally, it makes things harder when transferring your data from one
> machine to another. If you buy a new RISC OS computer, for the most part
> you don't delve inside !Boot, because it has been supplied with a !Boot
> suitable for the OS version. You reinstall your applications, and you
> copy your directories of files, your data, across to the new machine. But
> !NewsDir is an exception, if not the only exception to this arrangement.
Boot:Choices... ? :-)
Perhaps I'm unusual, but I've always copied bits from the old !Boot across
(on the rare occasions that it's necessary to set up a new RISC OS machine).
It can be a far quicker way of getting things working than installing
everything from scratch, although it does require a bit of user-knowedge of
what can safely be moved and what can't.
Anyway, I think we're basically in agreement on most of this, aside from
whether R-Comp are correct in taking the 'easy' route for the installation.
And that's something that Chris E needs to take up with them direct, I
suspect (although it's probably too late now, as the genie is well out of
the bottle as far as NewsDir and !Boot goes).
Steffen Huber
[snip]
> Not so. NewsDir started out as a storage area used by several news and mail
> apps: NewsBase was one example, and there are probably others. It certainly
> pre-dates M-Pro, and possibly the old Freeware Messenger as wall.
!NewsDir was "invented" by !ReadNews IIRC, and subsequently used by
the "dynamic duo" NewsBase and TTFN. The original freeware Messenger
came much later and also used NewsBase to access the stored mail/news
in !NewsDir.
Messenger Pro then came up with an integrated alternative to
NewsBase called MsgServe.
But !NewsDir survived them all ;-)
Steffen
--
Steffen Huber
hubersn Software - http://www.hubersn-software.com/
Martin Wuerthner
"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <b33766b2...@o2.co.uk>,
> Chris Hughes <ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
>>> It may only take a few moments to install a clean boot - but then lots
>>> of time to put back all the bits and pieces I have in there. Including
>>> things like network settings.
>> You mis-understand it seems! The idea is to initially temporary put a
>> clean boot on the machince with the bear minimum of changes (Unipod
>> stuff only maybe) and test the unplugging of the module, if it stays
>> unplugged then you know it was something in your original tweaked
>> !boot that was causing the problem and then you know where to look to
>> fix your issue.
> I'm with you now. Tried it - no difference. Machine still hangs at boot
> and unplugging CDFSSoftATAPI miraculously re-plugs itself after a re-boot.
So, have you had a look at your podules? What about your Unipod? Maybe
it comes with its own copy of CDFSSoftATAPI and/or code to enable it?
Martin
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Martin Wuerthner MW Software http://www.mw-software.com/
ArtWorks 2 -- Designing stunning graphics has never been easier
spam...@mw-software.com [replace "spamtrap" by "info" to reply]
Dave Plowman (News)
Martin Wuerthner <spam...@mw-software.com> wrote:
> In message <50b2709...@davenoise.co.uk>
> "Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <b33766b2...@o2.co.uk>,
> > Chris Hughes <ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
> >>> It may only take a few moments to install a clean boot - but then
> >>> lots of time to put back all the bits and pieces I have in there.
> >>> Including things like network settings.
> >> You mis-understand it seems! The idea is to initially temporary put a
> >> clean boot on the machince with the bear minimum of changes (Unipod
> >> stuff only maybe) and test the unplugging of the module, if it stays
> >> unplugged then you know it was something in your original tweaked
> >> !boot that was causing the problem and then you know where to look to
> >> fix your issue.
> > I'm with you now. Tried it - no difference. Machine still hangs at
> > boot and unplugging CDFSSoftATAPI miraculously re-plugs itself after a
> > re-boot.
> So, have you had a look at your podules? What about your Unipod? Maybe
> it comes with its own copy of CDFSSoftATAPI and/or code to enable it?
Bit beyond me, Martin. There are duplicated modules (same names but
different versions) in Unipod and my SCSI card - or rather I assume that's
what the ones numbered 3:1 and 0:1 etc are. But the CDFS ones numbered
thus are dormant - I assume because they are earlier versions.
DVDBurn also lists my drives under both IDEFS and CDFS. The whole CDFS
side is a complete mystery to me.
> Martin
--
*Save the whale - I'll have it for my supper*
Chris Evans
<URL:mailto:da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <ant30172...@client.cjemicros.co.uk>,
> Chris Evans <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <50b26ad...@triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes
> > <URL:mailto:da...@triffid.co.uk> wrote:
> > > It's been mentioned a lot in this thread, but where exactly would one
> > > find a clean !Boot? (I'm on RO 6.16)
>
> > Unfortuantly ROL didn't put a copy on the CD/website, a bad ommission!
>
> > As soon as I've installed an incremental OS update I make a copy[1] of
> > $.!Boot & apps etc if changed .
>
> > [1] Local and off computer.
>
>
> > Chris Evans
>
> Mmnnn! I have copies of the !Boot directory that go back a number of years.
>
> Before I upgrade a Select RO version, I always mke a copy of the !Boot to
> another backup harddrive.
Make another copy after you have finished the upgrade.
> But these are not "Clean" copies, are they? As they've evolved with the
> OS versions since the UniBoot first came out.
>
> Maybe I misunderstand what y'all mean by a clean boot.
A fully clean copy would be one as officially issued by Acorn, ROL, Castle
or ROOL with no personalisation.
A copy of 'Universal' !Boot (for Risc OS 3.1 - 3.71) is I believe on
RISCOS.com
ROL 4.02 installation CD has a copy
After 4.02 ROL have often done incremental upgrades which is a pity it
would be nice to have clean copies of all OS variants available.
Check each ROL Select CD you have starting at the latest, you have have
to go back a few releases, though Chris Hughes has pinted out that
a copy is on the 6.16 CD
IIRC Castle do have a clean copy on the CD they supplied with later Iyonix
PCs but as that has aquired 'incremental' upgrades it gets messy.
There is a complete updated !Boot on ROOL which I guess is for 5.14 and may
be suitable for earlier versions.
n.b. we have a copy for the A9homes RISC OS 4.42 at:
http://www.cjemicros.f2s.com/public/A9home/
Chris Evans
<URL:mailto:ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <ant30171...@client.cjemicros.co.uk>
> Chris Evans <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > In article <d65767b2...@o2.co.uk>, Chris Hughes
> > <URL:mailto:ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
> >> In message <ant30142...@client.cjemicros.co.uk>
> >> Chris Evans <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >>
> >>> For the reasons given earlier I strongly recommend:
> >>
> >>> Quiting !Messenger
> >>> move !NewDir to the same directory as !Messenger resides
> >>> Shutdown
> >>> Restart
> >>
> >>> Reload !Messenger and you will see everything is O.K.
> >>
> >> So Chris are you going to provide support etc to him in future when or
> >> if things break.
>
> > Actually it is in my interest that he and others don't follow my advice as
> > it will mean more paid work for me.
>
> Ah the truth is out. you make money!
If only :-)
Actually bad backup policy often costs us money when we have to give
support for a new item only to find there are issues with the computers !Boot.
It is quite common for users to tell us things like "it errors during
booting everytime but I just clear the error message"
> > At least once a month we are sent computers that no longer boot correctly, if
> > the user had made regular copies of $.!Boot many of them would not
> > have needed
> > to be sent to us.
>
> Maybe you need to promote the proper use of backups then, but that
> would lose you money.....
I seem to spend a lot of my time doing so but it does sometimes feel like
I'm hitting my head against a brick wall.
> >> If it works it should be left alone.
>
> > Not making backups of any type works for years for many people suggesting a
> > way that enables them to make backups easier must be a better way of doing
> > things.
>
> I was not suggesting no backups are made.
>
> >> If your unhappy with it talk to R-Comp and make a sensible suggest for
> >> a new location as standard, but since it is a central resource its
> >> current in it correct location, whether you like it or not.
>
> > I can think of no other application that keeps its data within $.!Boot
>
> I can, but its not Messenger pro's application its a central resource
> that can be used by other email systems thus its in the resources
> area, yet there might be a better way. But thats the way we have it
> now.
>
> > I find it very strange that you are defending something that costs users a
> > lot of wasted time and money.
>
> Only if they bring them to you and you charge them.
No some customers tell us they muddle along or spend hours fixing it
themselves, many will not ever talk to us and for a few it could be the last
straw that sees them move away from RISC OS.
> > It can very significantly increase the size of $.!Boot
>
> Agreed it can, but.....
>
> > This increase makes it more awkward to make backups
> > So backups (local or off disc) are taken less frequently
>
> Not if you use the correct tools for the job.
The correct tools will help but as the evry sigificant size increase means
at the very least the backup will take much longer (I've seen !NewsDir be
well over 90% of the size of $.!Boot)
!NewsDir is almost never the reason for a boot failure but it is a
significant factor in many peoples lack of backups.
There is no ideal backup strategy as there is always a balance between
thoroughness and convienence (time mainly)
> > It may have not caused you any problems but I have seen it happen on
> > numerous occasions.
>
> Maybe because I know about backup systems, etc.. and use them.
Many if not most of our customers rarely or never read the newsgroups and
are just 'users'.
Chris Evans
Apart from !Fonts no other resource that I can think of has a significant
amount of data. !Fonts is also rather different to !NewsDir as it rarely
changes. If users !Fonts are a significant size say over 10MB then I'd
recommend storing the extra's within $.APPS
But my most important recommendation is to make on and off disc backups
regularly, the off disc being the most important.
Chris Evans
My suggestion is that R-Comp make the modification so no problem.
I don't have an installation to check this with but won't Messenger error
with something like '!NewsDir not found'
There are quite a few apps that rely on other non $.!Boot resources and give
sensible errors when not located.
Tony Moore
[snip]
> A fully clean copy would be one as officially issued by Acorn, ROL,
> Castle or ROOL with no personalisation.
>
> A copy of 'Universal' !Boot (for Risc OS 3.1 - 3.71) is I believe on
> RISCOS.com
>
> ROL 4.02 installation CD has a copy
>
> After 4.02 ROL have often done incremental upgrades which is a pity it
> would be nice to have clean copies of all OS variants available. Check
> each ROL Select CD you have starting at the latest, you have have to
> go back a few releases, though Chris Hughes has pinted out that a copy
> is on the 6.16 CD
The distribution CDs, 4.39 to 6.14, each contain a 'clean' boot:
4.39 CDFS::ADJUST1_INSTAL.$.!Boot
6.00 CDFS::SELECT4I2.$.Boot.Boot/zip
6.10 CDFS::SELECT_4I4.$.Recovery.Boot/zip
6.14 CDFS::SELECT_5I1.$.Recovery.Boot/zip
I believe that 6.16 was a download but, after unpacking, Select5i2.!Boot
is an upgrade to the 6.14 boot, ie 6.16 is not complete.
Tony
Graham Thurlwell
<snip>
> The distribution CDs, 4.39 to 6.14, each contain a 'clean' boot:
<snip>
> 6.14 CDFS::SELECT_5I1.$.Recovery.Boot/zip
> I believe that 6.16 was a download but, after unpacking, Select5i2.!Boot
> is an upgrade to the 6.14 boot, ie 6.16 is not complete.
Correct, the Select 5i2 archive only contains a !Boot skeleton with
the two 6.16 ROM images in and updated versions of !ResEd and
!ResTest. Everything else is unchanged from 6.14 so they haven't
issued a new CD.
--
Graham Thurlwell
Jades' First Encounters Site
http://www.jades.org/ffe.htm
Graham Thurlwell
> If users !Fonts are a significant size say over 10MB then I'd
> recommend storing the extra's within $.APPS
We've used !EasyFont for years. The only things we have in our !Fonts
directory on the Omega is NewHall, Selwyn, Sidney and System.
Steve Fryatt
> In article <6fc575b2...@o2.co.uk>, Chris Hughes
> <URL:mailto:ne...@noonehere.co.uk> wrote:
> > In message <ant30170...@client.cjemicros.co.uk>
> > Chris Evans <ch...@cjemicros.co.uk> wrote:
> >
>
> > > A small mod to messenger should be able to fix that.
> >
> > Which will get removed when they get an update to Messenger Pro
> > potentially, which no doubt will generate more revenue for you, since
> > its now broken and needs repairing!
>
> My suggestion is that R-Comp make the modification so no problem.
>
> I don't have an installation to check this with but won't Messenger error
> with something like '!NewsDir not found'
It reports the issue and (from memory) offers the chance to create a new
copy of NewsDir somewhere via the installation dialogue.