Multi-part staves with rests in Rhapsody
Harriet Bazley
two-part music including rests, but there doesn't seem to be any way to
control which way the notional 'tail' of a rest should point (i.e. is it
associated with the 'tails-up' line of notes or the 'tails-down' line?)
Whether because the program is getting confused as to its tails, or
whether I am making some other mistake, I have always had enormous
difficulty getting Rhapsody to accept as valid the very common notation
(in piano accompaniments) of a semibreve in the top line of the right
hand accompanied by (rest/chord/rest/chord) underneath in the same hand,
in other words the pretty much standard offbeat 'vamp'.
||----------||
||-O--------||
||----------||
||-}-o-}-o--||
||---|---|--||
in ASCII art, where O represents a 'tails up' semibreve, } a crotchet
rest, and o a tails-down crotchet!
|
Pretty much every time I try to enter this, whether I enter the
single long note first or enter the chords and rests first, Rhapsody
reports "Missing rest or note too late" for the bar in question. It
plays back correctly and can be got to print out, but reformatting (i.e.
extra notes in the corresponding bar on some other stave) has a tendency
to muck up such bars with the rests actually sliding along to the start
of the bar, i.e. switching places with neighbouring notes(!), tending to
reinforce my theory that the program is reporting the error because it
actually thinks the rests are part of the 'tails-up' line rather than
interspersed between the chords.
Unfortunately, as I said, I can't find any way to specify on entry which
line of music the rest should be associated with. Holding down SHIFT
enables you to override the default positioning of the rest in the same
way as for dynamic markings, but it's a purely cosmetic alteration.
They are supposed to adjust themselves automatically to an upper or
lower line in the case of multiple parts on the same stave, but in the
specific case encountered above, i.e. a semibreve which is supposedly
occupying the entire rest of the bar in duration but doesn't actually
physically extend that far, Rhapsody attempts to place the rests on the
same level as the semibreve -- again indicating confusion on the
program's part.
If I enter a 'tails-up' semibreve and immediately enter a rest at the
same location, Rhapsody acts as expected and moves the rest down to lie
underneath the note. A tails-down crotchet can then be entered
subsequently and the program will also interpret this as being part of
the lower line. But as soon as I enter the next rest, it flies up to
lie in the default position level with the upper note, and I get the
error message: which is basically telling me that the bar length is now
wrong.
Am I missing something or have I hit an unforeseen bug? Unfortunately
this is a sequence that I rather frequently need to enter, and Rhapsody
doesn't appear to regard it as a reasonable thing to do. :-(
The error messages can simply be ignored, although this can lead to
false negatives if I actually do get the bar lengths wrong elsewhere,
and if the notes are entered very carefully in the right (unnatural)
sequence and a careful watch is subsequently kept for reformatting
errors, the problem can be worked around. But it would be nice - and
safer! - to know a cure.
I can produce sample files....
--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==
An atheist is a man with no invisible means of support.
Ben Crick
<baz...@feathermail.co.uk> wrote:
> Unfortunately, as I said, I can't find any way to specify on entry which
> line of music the rest should be associated with.
Dear Harriet,
If you place the cursor line where you want the rest to go, and then
<adjust> click on the "enter" arrow, the rest will go just where you
wanted it. <adjust> clicking will enter notes "tails down", and <select>
clicking enters them tails up. The same does not apply to rests. If you
<select> click on a rest, it will go in the middle of the stave. You
must <adjust> click to force the rest to go to the cursor position.
If you want a whole-bar rest, then you can place the rest in the middle
of the bar. If it is not a whole-bar rest, then you must enter the rest(s)
in the appropriate slot(s). A semibreve rest may be used for a whole-bar
rest, even if the time signature is not Common time 4/4, or allabreve
2/2.
Do you have the !Rhapsody4 manual? It really is quite comprehensive.
If you are still on !Rhapsody3, then it really is worth upgrading.
I use !Rhapsody quite a lot for transposing and printing out songs
for my sister to sing. She's a contralto, which means that most of her
songs have to transposed a minor or a major third down. I also use it
for printing out Organ scores on three staves.
HTH
Ben
--
_ __________________________________________
/ \._._ |_ _ _ /' Orpheus Internet Services
\_/| |_)| |(/_|_|_> / 'Internet for Everyone'
_______ | ___________./ http://www.orpheusinternet.co.uk
Revd Ben Crick BA CF <ben.crick[at]argonet.co.uk> ZFC Os
232 Canterbury Road, Birchington on sea, Kent CT7 9TD (UK)
Acorn RPC700 Kinetic RO 4.03 with Castle Iyonix RO 5.13 Ethernet
* God grades on the Cross, not on the curve.
Harriet Bazley
Ben Crick wrote:
> In article <e91bedad5...@blueyonder.co.uk>, Harriet Bazley
> <baz...@feathermail.co.uk> wrote:
> > Unfortunately, as I said, I can't find any way to specify on entry which
> > line of music the rest should be associated with.
>
> If you place the cursor line where you want the rest to go, and then
> <adjust> click on the "enter" arrow, the rest will go just where you
> wanted it. <adjust> clicking will enter notes "tails down", and <select>
> clicking enters them tails up. The same does not apply to rests. If you
> <select> click on a rest, it will go in the middle of the stave. You
> must <adjust> click to force the rest to go to the cursor position.
Yes, I can get the rests to appear in the right 'cosmetic' position by
ADJUST-clicking. Unfortunately when you do this Rhapsody doesn't seem
to know which 'part' to associate them with; it appears to assume that
they all apply to the tails-up part, and thus reports that there are too
many beats in the bar. :-(
I can send you a small sample file to demonstrate the problem if I'm not
making myself clear.
[snip]
> Do you have the !Rhapsody4 manual? It really is quite comprehensive.
> If you are still on !Rhapsody3, then it really is worth upgrading.
Did I write Rhapsody 3? I meant Rhapsody 4....
--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==
Computers can never replace human stupidity.
Ben Crick
<baz...@feathermail.co.uk> wrote:
> Yes, I can get the rests to appear in the right 'cosmetic' position by
> ADJUST-clicking. Unfortunately when you do this Rhapsody doesn't seem
> to know which 'part' to associate them with; it appears to assume that
> they all apply to the tails-up part, and thus reports that there are too
> many beats in the bar. :-(
>
> I can send you a small sample file to demonstrate the problem if I'm not
> making myself clear.
I've never had this error (too many beats in the bar), and I do transcribe
multi-part staves for piano and organ. Fugues in particular need to have
each voice carefully entered. Rhapsody can handle three voices on one
stave, even though there is only 'tails up' and 'tails down' to
distinguish them. See Rhapsody4 manual page 57 for this; and pages 55/6
for dropping and dragging rests, and entering "alternative notes" which
are printed and played, but do not occupy a "slot".
Another useful dodge where you have a tails-down crotchet and a tails-up
minim occupying the same line is to make the crotchet (or other black note)
headless. Then the minim (or other white note) remains white.
I shall be abroad (first in Israel, then in Ireland) so I won't be able
to respond to NGs and Email except for a short "window" on 7-9 Nov.
> Did I write Rhapsody 3? I meant Rhapsody 4....
No, you didn't; but as I have not had this error, it crossed my mind
that you might be using an earlier version.
Ben
--
_ __________________________________________
/ \._._ |_ _ _ /' Orpheus Internet Services
\_/| |_)| |(/_|_|_> / 'Internet for Everyone'
_______ | ___________./ http://www.orpheusinternet.co.uk
Revd Ben Crick BA CF <ben.crick[at]argonet.co.uk> ZFC Os
232 Canterbury Road, Birchington on sea, Kent CT7 9TD (UK)
Acorn RPC700 Kinetic RO 4.03 with Castle Iyonix RO 5.13 Ethernet
* He who is good at making excuses is seldom good for anything else.
Harriet Bazley
Ben Crick wrote:
> In article <ed5a93b15...@blueyonder.co.uk>, Harriet Bazley
> <baz...@feathermail.co.uk> wrote:
> > Yes, I can get the rests to appear in the right 'cosmetic' position by
> > ADJUST-clicking. Unfortunately when you do this Rhapsody doesn't seem
> > to know which 'part' to associate them with; it appears to assume that
> > they all apply to the tails-up part, and thus reports that there are too
> > many beats in the bar. :-(
> >
> > I can send you a small sample file to demonstrate the problem if I'm not
> > making myself clear.
>
> I've never had this error (too many beats in the bar), and I do transcribe
> multi-part staves for piano and organ. Fugues in particular need to have
> each voice carefully entered. Rhapsody can handle three voices on one
> stave, even though there is only 'tails up' and 'tails down' to
> distinguish them. See Rhapsody4 manual page 57 for this;
Yes - in most cases, using rests in two-part music produces the expected
results, as illustrated in the manual. In the specific (and in popular
music not, alas, uncommon) case that I originally described, i.e. a
melody line in the keyboard part with an off-beat accompaniment
underneath in the same hand, such that the second voice on the stave has
each beat starting with a rest, Rhapsody seems to get very confused
about which voice the rests actually belong to.
> and pages 55/6
> for dropping and dragging rests, and entering "alternative notes" which
> are printed and played, but do not occupy a "slot".
I've finally (at least six months later...) had occasion to transcribe
another piece, run into the same old problem, and been able to test the
use of 'alternative' notes as a work-around; and can confirm that it works!
(Of course, alternative notes really shouldn't be required when dealing
with only two voices per stave, so I still think that the absence of any
way of specifying whether a rest belongs to the tails-up or tails-down
part is a bug....)
--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==
Those of you who think you know everything are annoying those of us who do.
Ben Crick
I'm currently writing out a song with the accompaniment starting with
a semiquaver rest in the right hand. So far the rest has appeared in
the right place at the cursor, when <adjust> clicked; and in the middle
of the staff when <select> clicked.
If you leave the rests till last within each bar, Rhapsody usually
inserts them in the correct place. "High" rests belong to the upper
part (tails up), and "low" rests to the lower part (tails down).
When I have transposed the piece down 3 or 4 semitones, I find that
the rests are usually left too high up, so that the transposed notes
overlap some of them. Then I have to edit the offending rests further
down to print properly.
I'd call it a quirk rather than a bug. A minor irritant. JO Linton,
are you out there, reading this?
Ben
--
_ __________________________________________
/ \._._ |_ _ _ /' Orpheus Internet Services
\_/| |_)| |(/_|_|_> / 'Internet for Everyone'
_______ | ___________./ http://www.orpheusinternet.co.uk
Revd Ben Crick BA CF <ben.crick[at]argonet.co.uk> ZFC Os
232 Canterbury Road, Birchington on sea, Kent CT7 9TD (UK)
Acorn RPC700 Kinetic RO 4.03 with Castle Iyonix RO 5.16 Ethernet
* Kindness is difficult to give away because it keeps coming back.
Ben Crick
wrote:
> I then convert to R4, adjust all the slot widths to accomodate the lyrics
> properly, ( it rarely gets these right) and format. Saving each page out
> as a draw file for final tidying up.
If you are using R3, you'll have ScoreDraw which outputs Draw files anyway.
With the Iyo, I find that the score prints too high up on the page, which
means I have to drag each system down about 3" to get it where I want it.
OK on the RPC 700, except that I only have a dot-matrix printer with it.
The Iyo has a newer colour printer Canon i560, which the RPC700 cannot
drive. The Iyo printer drivers are installed differently from the
drivers on the RPC700. And the Iyo is USB only, and the RPC is parallel
only.
I insert the lyrics last, after successfully completing the transposition.
The Auto Spaced facility is very good. Untick it if you want a word or
words to spread along many slots as required.
Ben
--
_ __________________________________________
/ \._._ |_ _ _ /' Orpheus Internet Services
\_/| |_)| |(/_|_|_> / 'Internet for Everyone'
_______ | ___________./ http://www.orpheusinternet.co.uk
Revd Ben Crick BA CF <ben.crick[at]argonet.co.uk> ZFC Os
232 Canterbury Road, Birchington on sea, Kent CT7 9TD (UK)
Acorn RPC700 Kinetic RO 4.03 with Castle Iyonix RO 5.16 Ethernet
* Man's way leads to a hopeless end; God's way leads to an endless hope.
Ben Crick
wrote:
> Yes but R4 is more capable. For example the ability to "remove bar" or
> "add bar", I don't recall that feature in Scoredraw although it is a very
> long time since I used it.
>
> One irritation here is that you cannot "remove bar" from the last stave
> in the score however cramped it may appear.
I play with the "packing factor" and the "point size" until the score
formats to an exact number of full pages. I don't like cramped or
over-stretched bottom lines; nor do I like white space under the last
system.
> The other annoyance is its insistance on putting system seperators unless
> you remember to turn them off each time. There may be a button which says
> "make default" but it does nothing. This is something I have never even
> seen used, in any score I have handled.
System separators are hardly necessary, unless you are printing out
a full score for an orchestra or a big band.
> > I insert the lyrics last, after successfully completing the
> > transposition. The Auto Spaced facility is very good. Untick it if you
> > want a word or words to spread along many slots as required.
>
> The bug here, of course, is that it does not clear the text box
> automatically, unlike R3.
>
> So whils R3 is:
> type-word[return], type word [return], type word[return]......
> R4 becomes:
> type word{return]delete text, type word{return]delete text, type
> word{return]delete text.....
>
> One of the bugs that forced me back to R3
I just use <ctrl>U after inserting a word or syllable, before typing
the next word/syllable.
--
_ __________________________________________
/ \._._ |_ _ _ /' Orpheus Internet Services
\_/| |_)| |(/_|_|_> / 'Internet for Everyone'
_______ | ___________./ http://www.orpheusinternet.co.uk
Revd Ben Crick BA CF <ben.crick[at]argonet.co.uk> ZFC Os
232 Canterbury Road, Birchington on sea, Kent CT7 9TD (UK)
Acorn RPC700 Kinetic RO 4.03 with Castle Iyonix RO 5.16 Ethernet
* Most people want to serve God, but only in an advisory capacity.
Harriet Bazley
Stuart wrote:
> In article <na.72e81a50f9....@argonet.co.uk>,
> Ben Crick <ben....@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > If you are using R3, you'll have ScoreDraw which outputs Draw files
> > anyway.
[snip Rhapsody 4]
> The other annoyance is its insistance on putting system seperators unless
> you remember to turn them off each time.
You need to edit the setting of the default ('Blank') score in
!Rhapsody4.NewScores, and/or set up your own more useful defaults. (I
have one that sets up an appropriate set of staves/voices for a recorder
consort, for example, and one that supplies a Voice & Piano layout.)
[snip]
> > I insert the lyrics last, after successfully completing the
> > transposition. The Auto Spaced facility is very good. Untick it if you
> > want a word or words to spread along many slots as required.
>
> The bug here, of course, is that it does not clear the text box
> automatically, unlike R3.
>
> So whils R3 is:
> type-word[return], type word [return], type word[return]......
> R4 becomes:
> type word{return]delete text, type word{return]delete text, type
> word{return]delete text.....
This, on the other hand, is something I haven't encountered; when I
press Return while adding lyrics, the cursor always seems to advance
automatically to the next appropriate slot and the text box is blanked.
I usually have Auto spacing on for lyrics, but even with it off the text
box still seems to get cleared....
--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==
Some men are discovered; others are found out.
Harriet Bazley
Stuart wrote:
> In article <a70ba2f95...@blueyonder.co.uk>,
> Ehh?
>
> I have just entered the following, 4/4 time signature.
>
> Tails up, 4 crotchets
>
> Tails down, 1 crotchet rest, 4 quavers and a crotchet. (Rhapsody 3)
>
Yes, but have you tried (in Rhapsody 4)
Tails up, 1 semibreve
Tails down, 1 crotchet rest, 1 crotchet, 1 crotchet rest, 1 crotchet?
:-(
(See my original message of
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.acorn.apps/msg/d5ae68ab6f994ef8
for more detail.)
I consistently get "Missing rest or note too late" whether I enter the
top line or the bottom line first.
--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==
It is better to wear out than to rust.
Harriet Bazley
Ben Crick wrote:
> In article <a70ba2f95...@blueyonder.co.uk>, Harriet Bazley
> <baz...@feathermail.co.uk> wrote:
> > (Of course, alternative notes really shouldn't be required when dealing
> > with only two voices per stave, so I still think that the absence of any
> > way of specifying whether a rest belongs to the tails-up or tails-down
> > part is a bug....)
>
> I'm currently writing out a song with the accompaniment starting with
> a semiquaver rest in the right hand. So far the rest has appeared in
> the right place at the cursor, when <adjust> clicked; and in the middle
> of the staff when <select> clicked.
>
> If you leave the rests till last within each bar, Rhapsody usually
> inserts them in the correct place. "High" rests belong to the upper
> part (tails up), and "low" rests to the lower part (tails down).
>
Yet again I'm trying to transcribe a piano part; yet again I'm giving
up on Rhapsody in despair because I simply can't get it to input the
rests. (I can't even 'fool' it reliably using alternate notes this
time; the piece keeps misformatting itself when I edit subsequent bars.)
The upper voice on the stave starts with a quaver rest. The lower
voice starts with a crotchet rest. Can Rhapsody accept this as a valid
layout? Apparently not....
I can't get it to work on the simplest of examples: a 4/4 bar in which
the tails-up line consists entirely of quavers and the tails-down line
below it consists entirely of crotchets, with the first of each replaced
by a rest. Since there is apparently no way to specify whether a rest
as 'tails-up' or 'tails-down', Rhapsody is responding by overwriting the
first one entered with the second one entered, whichever order I do it
in and whether I Adjust- or Select-click: in this example I can't even
get it to display one rest above the other.
Why does this apparently never happen to anyone else, and happen to me
more or less every other time I want to use the program? :-(
--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==
Cloning is the sincerest form of flattery.
Ben Crick
<baz...@feathermail.co.uk> wrote:
> The upper voice on the stave starts with a quaver rest. The lower
> voice starts with a crotchet rest. Can Rhapsody accept this as a valid
> layout? Apparently not....
Could you "fool" Rhapsody to accept a quaver rest in the middle of the
staff, applicable to both parts (select-click); then enter a second
quaver rest (adjust-click) under the first note of the upper part
before entering the first note of the lower part?
Seems to work here...
Ben
--
_ __________________________________________
/ \._._ |_ _ _ /' Orpheus Internet Services
\_/| |_)| |(/_|_|_> / 'Internet for Everyone'
_______ | ___________./ http://www.orpheusinternet.co.uk
Revd Ben Crick BA CF <ben.crick[at]argonet.co.uk> ZFC Ir
232 Canterbury Road, Birchington on sea, Kent CT7 9TD (UK)
Acorn RPC700 Kinetic RO 4.03 with Castle Iyonix RO 5.16 Ethernet
* When God ordains, He sustains.
Harriet Bazley
Ben Crick wrote:
> In article <a4471b2d5...@blueyonder.co.uk>, Harriet Bazley
> <baz...@feathermail.co.uk> wrote:
> > The upper voice on the stave starts with a quaver rest. The lower
> > voice starts with a crotchet rest. Can Rhapsody accept this as a valid
> > layout? Apparently not....
>
> Could you "fool" Rhapsody to accept a quaver rest in the middle of the
> staff, applicable to both parts (select-click); then enter a second
> quaver rest (adjust-click) under the first note of the upper part
> before entering the first note of the lower part?
>
> Seems to work here...
>
Thanks, I've successfully fooled Rhapsody with this tip!
(It occurs to me that the accompanist may be a bit puzzled as well, but
now that I can actually enter the rest of the piece beyond this point, I
can always save as Draw and clean up the output afterwards: it's just
getting stuck on the intro that's so infuriating.)
--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==
A man's best friend is his dogma.