Great Article on the real deal with this industry
Margaret Bartley
Friday, which was to address Washington State's need for
high-tech workers. True to form, it was exclusively focused
on getting more young people into the field.
http://www.governor.wa.gov/techsummit/priorities.htm
There were over 30 people on the panel, including the
governor, and not one of them spoke for workers.
http://www.governor.wa.gov/techsummit/participants.htm
There was no indication at all that there might be problem
with the number of people who are leaving the field.
Just another example of the total contempt politicians and
CEOs hold for the people who are actually doing the work.
No wonder they feel free to run roughshod over us.
Jay <j...@jay.jay.org> wrote in message
news:39D63C0B...@jay.jay.org...
> Are tech workers in short supply
> From Knowledge@Wharton
> Special to CNET News.com
> September 28, 2000, 4:00 a.m.
>
>
http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1007-200-2880309.html?tag=st.ne.
1430735..ni
>
> A relevant quote from the article:
>
> "What's really unusual about this situation is that so
> many people are quitting the IT profession," says
Cappelli,
> who is also director of Wharton's center for human
resources.
> "The number of workers who quit the programming field
every year,
> for example, exceeds the number of new programming jobs.
It's peculiar
> to have a field that's thought to be so hot, yet where so
many
> people are leaving in droves."
>
> Jay
Margaret Bartley
<gav...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8r7u4b$d6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <8r6ut8$vk0$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>,
> "Margaret Bartley"
<REMOVETHISma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > The Governor's Technology Workforce Summit on took place
on
> > Friday, which was to address Washington State's need for
> > high-tech workers. True to form, it was exclusively
focused
> > on getting more young people into the field.
> > http://www.governor.wa.gov/techsummit/priorities.htm
> >
> > There were over 30 people on the panel, including the
> > governor, and not one of them spoke for workers.
> > http://www.governor.wa.gov/techsummit/participants.htm
> >
> > There was no indication at all that there might be
problem
> > with the number of people who are leaving the field.
> >
>
field. But
> what kind of jobs are they moving into?
>
> Those kinds of jobs must be better paying than the IT
field otherwise
> it would make no sense to change career. How do I get one
of those jobs?
Maslow's hierarchy of needs starts kicking in here.
At a certain level, both in income and in maturity, things
other than money become paramount. I know for my self that
I actually used to get sick when I was in a situation too
long (usually 4 - 7 months) where I was treated like a
mindless intellectual factory-worker. I resolved about
fifteen years ago to never work in a place where I had to
hang my brains up at the door when I came to work. One of
the things I've noticed is that companies that operate on a
"need-to-know" basis with their staff usually also have
unpleasant physical surroundings and unpleasant
middle-managers. I have taken a $10K cut in salary to work
in an environment where my contributions are valued, I have
autonomy with respect to my time ( I can come and go as I
wish: no check-ins, half-day off-site seminars are OK, etc),
and with an office with a door. (I've never taken a cut in
pay to get an office with a view:) ).
I suspect you are very young and naive if you think the only
thing that matters is money.
Jay
philotsopher
retirement. Either way the DOL considers these as voluntary leaves
which don't count as layoff or firings. These people also don't qualify
for unemployment.
This quote assumes when programmers quit, it is voluntary. That is a
wrong assumption.
--
philotsopher
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
scamericanDream
Jay <j...@jay.jay.org> wrote in message news:39D63C0B...@jay.jay.org...
> Are tech workers in short supply
> From Knowledge@Wharton
> Special to CNET News.com
> September 28, 2000, 4:00 a.m.
>
> http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1007-200-2880309.html?tag=st.ne.1430735..ni
>
> A relevant quote from the article:
>
> "What's really unusual about this situation is that so
> many people are quitting the IT profession," says Cappelli,
> who is also director of Wharton's center for human resources.
> "The number of workers who quit the programming field every year,
> for example, exceeds the number of new programming jobs. It's peculiar
> to have a field that's thought to be so hot, yet where so many
> people are leaving in droves."
They're skilled enough to realize the servant business is futureless.
>
> Jay
Phil Eamon
> Jay wrote:
> > Are tech workers in short supply
> > From Knowledge@Wharton
> > "What's really unusual about this situation is that so
> > many people are quitting the IT profession,"
> > for example, exceeds the number of new programming jobs. It's peculiar
> > to have a field that's thought to be so hot, yet where so many
> > people are leaving in droves."
>
> short supply?'.
>
> One of the interesting things in this field is that the ratio in
> productivity between those at the top and bottom (vaguely useful)
> end is 20:1 or so.
OK, that's one...
> Why are they leaving, then, if there are
> obviously jobs for them? Doesn't make sense, does it.
...and that's two. A quiz: does anyone see any logical connection
between the two?
But to answer the question in its own right: perhaps working in this
"very hot" industry isn't too attractive for people who are not chained
to their employer? That's a possibility, isn't it. Now, if we allow for
a second that that's the case, two things may be attempted in order to
improve the situation: a) make jobs more attractive b) import slaves.
Option (b) is cheaper (for the employer, not for the society, of course.
The society will pay through their nose, as, in the U.S. it has been
paying for a long time for the slave economy of their forefathers. The
sins of the father fell on the children, just like it should be.)
> Could also explain why the US is outsourcing such jobs offshore,
> too.
No question about that.
> Stands to reason that the best in another country are better
> than the mediocre in the US, and cost a lot less too.
What reason would that be?
Is it true?
Is it necessarily the case?
In general, what are you trying to say <g>?
(Btw, in Australia, do you have 40 mln people with no access to health
care?)
> Andrew
> --
> Andrew Gabb
> Adelaide, South Australia
> phone:
> -----
gav...@my-deja.com
"Margaret Bartley" <REMOVETHISma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The Governor's Technology Workforce Summit on took place on
> Friday, which was to address Washington State's need for
> high-tech workers. True to form, it was exclusively focused
> on getting more young people into the field.
> http://www.governor.wa.gov/techsummit/priorities.htm
>
> There were over 30 people on the panel, including the
> governor, and not one of them spoke for workers.
> http://www.governor.wa.gov/techsummit/participants.htm
>
> There was no indication at all that there might be problem
> with the number of people who are leaving the field.
>
Thats an interesting theory that people are leaving the IT field. But
what kind of jobs are they moving into?
Those kinds of jobs must be better paying than the IT field otherwise
it would make no sense to change career. How do I get one of those jobs?
Gavin
> Just another example of the total contempt politicians and
> CEOs hold for the people who are actually doing the work.
> No wonder they feel free to run roughshod over us.
>
> Jay <j...@jay.jay.org> wrote in message
> news:39D63C0B...@jay.jay.org...
> > Are tech workers in short supply
> > From Knowledge@Wharton
> > Special to CNET News.com
> > September 28, 2000, 4:00 a.m.
> >
> >
> http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1007-200-2880309.html?tag=st.ne.
> 1430735..ni
> >
> > A relevant quote from the article:
> >
> > "What's really unusual about this situation is that so
> > many people are quitting the IT profession," says
> Cappelli,
> > who is also director of Wharton's center for human
> resources.
> > "The number of workers who quit the programming field
> every year,
> > for example, exceeds the number of new programming jobs.
> It's peculiar
> > to have a field that's thought to be so hot, yet where so
> many
> > people are leaving in droves."
> >
> > Jay
Spehro Pefhany
> productivity between those at the top and bottom (vaguely useful)
> end is 20:1 or so.
I'd have said more like 10:1, but yes, this is a fact that the
less-productive programmers very seldom bring up.
Best regards,
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Contributions invited->The AVR-gcc FAQ is at: http://www.BlueCollarLinux.com
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Phil Eamon
> In article <8r6ut8$vk0$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>,
> "Margaret Bartley" <REMOVETHISma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > The Governor's Technology Workforce Summit on took place on
> > Friday, which was to address Washington State's need for
> > high-tech workers. True to form, it was exclusively focused
> > on getting more young people into the field.
> > http://www.governor.wa.gov/techsummit/priorities.htm
> >
> > There were over 30 people on the panel, including the
> > governor, and not one of them spoke for workers.
> > http://www.governor.wa.gov/techsummit/participants.htm
> >
> > There was no indication at all that there might be problem
> > with the number of people who are leaving the field.
> >
>
> Thats an interesting theory that people are leaving the IT field. But
> what kind of jobs are they moving into?
>
> Those kinds of jobs must be better paying than the IT field otherwise
> it would make no sense to change career.
people change jobs or careers, money isn't the only nor the most
important among them. I'd even say, when changing careers, immediate
difference in income is very secondary. For example, someone might want
to get a quieter job where he could work 40, not 80 hrs a week--even if
it pays less. Someone may dislike travel. Who knows. Changing careers is
rarely about money.
> How do I get one of those jobs?
When you need it, you'll find it.
Jay
>
> In article <8r6ut8$vk0$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>,
> "Margaret Bartley" <REMOVETHISma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > The Governor's Technology Workforce Summit on took place on
> > Friday, which was to address Washington State's need for
> > high-tech workers. True to form, it was exclusively focused
> > on getting more young people into the field.
> > http://www.governor.wa.gov/techsummit/priorities.htm
> >
> > There were over 30 people on the panel, including the
> > governor, and not one of them spoke for workers.
> > http://www.governor.wa.gov/techsummit/participants.htm
> >
> > There was no indication at all that there might be problem
> > with the number of people who are leaving the field.
> >
>
> Thats an interesting theory that people are leaving the IT field. But
> what kind of jobs are they moving into?
>
> Those kinds of jobs must be better paying than the IT field otherwise
Spoken like a true "$MBA$ type". Its called "quality of life".
Lets see what the article says:
"The reality, however,
is that there is no widespread lack of workers, but a
shortfall in the ability of companies to recruit IT employees,
(1) to assess their talent
(2) and to make their jobs "rewarding enough to keep them from quitting,
claims a study by Wharton management professor Peter Cappelli.
...
The unhappy truth, the study points out,
is not that there are few people available to do IT work,
but that once they are hired
(3) they are often poorly managed. In addition, many IT jobs are
(4) ill-designed and boring, leading many employees to become
dissatisfied and leave"
...
"Moreover,
(5) many employers treat IT employees poorly and undervalue their
contributions to companies. For instance,
(6) programmers typically find themselves working in isolation on
fragmented tasks that do not allow them to see the
larger purpose of a project
(7) or to interact with other people.
It may be of no small consequence that
(8) the offices of IT employees are often in a company's basement,
the study notes."
-------------
((1)-(8) are annotations added by me.)
Conclusion: Many high-tech jobs suck shit and are just
getting worse, thats why people don't want to work in them.
Jay
scamericanDream
Andrew Gabb <ag...@tpgi.com.au> wrote in message
news:39D75CF6...@tpgi.com.au...
> Jay wrote:
> > Are tech workers in short supply
> > From Knowledge@Wharton
> > Special to CNET News.com
> > September 28, 2000, 4:00 a.m.
> >
> > http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1007-200-2880309.html?tag=st.ne.1430735..ni
> >
> >
> > "What's really unusual about this situation is that so
> > many people are quitting the IT profession," says Cappelli,
> > who is also director of Wharton's center for human resources.
> > "The number of workers who quit the programming field every year,
> > for example, exceeds the number of new programming jobs. It's peculiar
> > to have a field that's thought to be so hot, yet where so many
> > people are leaving in droves."
>
> short supply?'.
>
> One of the interesting things in this field is that the ratio in
> obviously jobs for them? Doesn't make sense, does it.
>
> than the mediocre in the US, and cost a lot less too.
Cost has nothing to do with it.
>
> Andrew
> --
> Andrew Gabb
> email: ag...@tpgi.com.au Adelaide, South Australia
> phone: +61 8 8342-1021, fax: +61 8 8269-3280
> -----
John Jacobson
"Phil Eamon" <phi...@blarney.att.net> wrote in message
news:39D79207...@blarney.att.net...
> > Those kinds of jobs must be better paying than the IT field otherwise
> > it would make no sense to change career.
> people change jobs or careers, money isn't the only nor the most
> important among them. I'd even say, when changing careers, immediate
> difference in income is very secondary. For example, someone might want
> to get a quieter job where he could work 40, not 80 hrs a week--even if
> it pays less.
In all my entire career as a software programer/engineer I've never been
expected to work 80 hours a week (or even more than 50). I know quite a few
softeware engineers and none of them are expected to work more than 45 hours
a week. So the idea that someone might leave programming in order to flee 80
hours a week simply makes no sense to me.
> Someone may dislike travel.
Huh? In my entire career as a software engineer only twice did a company
ask me to fly anywhere. Again, this doesn't appear to me to be a good reason
to leave IT.
> Who knows. Changing careers is
> rarely about money.
Personally I think the article was exactly correct about the fact that a
lot of people leave IT, but the idea that this indicates that working
conditions or salaries in IT are horrible is naive IMHO. In fact it very
easily could imply the opposite, that salaries and benefits are high enough
to allow people to take some time off from working altogether. One
consultant I know did just this. He had accumulated enough money in the bank
that he colud just quit and take a few months off. He is one those that left
IT at that point in time, but he sure wasn't hurting. Another possible
reason for high dropout rates is that many people find out that they can not
do the work. Programming requires character traits that most people simply
do not possess. I'd be interested seeing a more in depth study of the
*reasons* people give for leaving IT.
John Jacobson
> Conclusion: Many high-tech jobs suck shit and are just
> getting worse, thats why people don't want to work in them.
Are you working in a high-tech job? Does it suck? If so, why do you still
do it?
John Jacobson
"scamericanDream" <cheapfor...@exploitem.gov> wrote in message
news:yYFB5.1017$bt.1...@news3.voicenet.com...
> > "What's really unusual about this situation is that so
> > many people are quitting the IT profession," says Cappelli,
> > who is also director of Wharton's center for human resources.
> > "The number of workers who quit the programming field every year,
> > for example, exceeds the number of new programming jobs. It's peculiar
> > to have a field that's thought to be so hot, yet where so many
> > people are leaving in droves."
>
So, are you a "servant" or have you left IT but post here anyway?
John Jacobson
> short supply?'.
>
> One of the interesting things in this field is that the ratio in
> productivity between those at the top and bottom (vaguely useful)
> end is 20:1 or so. Why are they leaving, then, if there are
> obviously jobs for them? Doesn't make sense, does it.
The good programmers might not be the ones that are leaving. I've never
seen any shortage of jobs for experienced good programmers.
>
> Could also explain why the US is outsourcing such jobs offshore,
> too. Stands to reason that the best in another country are better
> than the mediocre in the US, and cost a lot less too
Wow, that is one of the most concise and powerful arguments for more open
immigration and more guest workers I've ever seen.
Nicholas Geovanis
> In all my entire career as a software programer/engineer I've never been
> expected to work 80 hours a week (or even more than 50).
During my seven years in the business world as a software developer and
consultant (1989-1996), the 50-hour week was routine and the 60-hour week
was quite common. It was also the case that I wasn't paid for the
so-called overtime until I started consulting, when my consulting firm
charged for all of my time (and paid me part of what they charged).
> Huh? In my entire career as a software engineer only twice did a company
> ask me to fly anywhere. Again, this doesn't appear to me to be a good reason
> to leave IT.
Most strange. I received quite a bit of flack for disliking travel,
despite making several trips each year anyway. There's no question that my
reluctance affected my salary too, because I was told at my annual reviews
that it did. Some of my coworkers who were actual code-producers (not
marketing dweebs) spent as much as one week per month out of town.
* Nick Geovanis I can't go to work today. The little
| IT Computing Svcs voice inside my head said,
| Northwestern Univ "Stay home and clean the guns".
| n-geo...@nwu.edu
+------------------->
Andrew Gabb
> Are tech workers in short supply
> From Knowledge@Wharton
> Special to CNET News.com
> September 28, 2000, 4:00 a.m.
>
> http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1007-200-2880309.html?tag=st.ne.1430735..ni
>
> A relevant quote from the article:
>
> many people are quitting the IT profession," says Cappelli,
> who is also director of Wharton's center for human resources.
> "The number of workers who quit the programming field every year,
> for example, exceeds the number of new programming jobs. It's peculiar
> to have a field that's thought to be so hot, yet where so many
> people are leaving in droves."
Maybe the headline should have read 'Are productive tech workers in
short supply?'.
One of the interesting things in this field is that the ratio in
productivity between those at the top and bottom (vaguely useful)
end is 20:1 or so. Why are they leaving, then, if there are
obviously jobs for them? Doesn't make sense, does it.
Could also explain why the US is outsourcing such jobs offshore,
too. Stands to reason that the best in another country are better
than the mediocre in the US, and cost a lot less too.
Phil Eamon
>
> "Phil Eamon" <phi...@blarney.att.net> wrote in message
> news:39D79207...@blarney.att.net...
> > > Those kinds of jobs must be better paying than the IT field otherwise
> > > it would make no sense to change career.
> > Absolutely not true. There may be all kinds of reasons that can make
> > people change jobs or careers, money isn't the only nor the most
> > important among them. I'd even say, when changing careers, immediate
> > difference in income is very secondary. For example, someone might want
> > to get a quieter job where he could work 40, not 80 hrs a week--even if
> > it pays less.
>
As always: who cares about you? You're one guy. With zero credibility,
I'd also add. I, on the other hand, am speaking from experience.
Moreover, your "entire" career as a FTE SSE is how long? Four years did
you say. You'll talk when you grow up, sonny.
> ...to work 80 hours a week (or even more than 50). I know quite a few
> softeware engineers and none of them are expected to work more than 45 hours
> a week. So the idea that someone might leave programming in order to flee 80
> hours a week simply makes no sense to me.
Who cares? You're a known dumbfuck. Something not making sense to you is
rather normal, as nothing makes sense to a fool or dishonest shill.
> > Someone may dislike travel.
> Huh? In my entire career as a software engineer only twice did a company
> ask me to fly anywhere. Again, this doesn't appear to me to be a good reason
> to leave IT.
In my entire career, I've had to travel an awful lot, at times more than
60% of the time. I don't mind travel, and so this is not a complaint,
but a statement of fact rather. Jobs are different. Again, who cares
what you had/not had to do? You're one guy, and you like to lie a lot
besides.
> > Who knows. Changing careers is
> > rarely about money.
>
> Personally I think the article was exactly correct about the fact that a
> lot of people leave IT, but the idea that this indicates that working
> conditions or salaries in IT are horrible is naive IMHO.
Well, your HO isn't worth much <g>. (Barry will kill me for giving you
food ! I'd better depart now :-)
> ...In fact it very
> easily could imply the opposite, that salaries and benefits are high enough
> to allow people to take some time off from working altogether. One
> consultant I know did just this. He had accumulated enough money in the bank
> that he colud just quit and take a few months off. He is one those that left
> IT at that point in time, but he sure wasn't hurting. Another possible
> reason for high dropout rates is that many people find out that they can not
> do the work. Programming requires character traits that most people simply
> do not possess.
Programming, as it is now, is this way not because of computer science,
but due to how the management treats people in that profession. Which is
like a buch of cheap morons to squeeze and kick out. Having access to a
billion Indian H1Bs on the workforce side, and a bunch of politicians
like our good friend Mr Moynihan (now retired), who are only too glad to
legislate no competition on the business side (via things like 1706),
they will never have a need to change anything. Of course, they may need
to spend a couple of bucks on a piece of shit like you, so someone keeps
on posting lies 24x7 trying to befuddle people with crude lies.
a@b.c
> The good programmers might not be the ones that are leaving. I've never
>seen any shortage of jobs for experienced good programmers.
If good programmers do 20 times as much useful work as bad ones, but get paid
the same, it makes more sense for them to leave, if they're underpaid by a
factor of 20. They can go into business for themselves, to get the full
benefit of their higher productivity.
The managers who hire programmers aren't looking for raw programming talent
and productivity. They want to advance their careers. The more programmers
they have working for them, the more important they are to their company.
The more those programmers screw up, the harder their projects seem, and the
more important the manager seems.
Some of the best software in use in the world today was written by
programmers who no longer work there, managed by managers who no longer work
there. The ones who make a career at one company are the ones who can do the
delicate balancing act between screwing up just enough to be needed but not
enough to sink the company.
Yiorgos Adamopoulos
>Thats an interesting theory that people are leaving the IT field. But
>what kind of jobs are they moving into?
- Management
- Stock Market / Investments in general
>Those kinds of jobs must be better paying than the IT field otherwise
>it would make no sense to change career. How do I get one of those jobs?
Work for a startup and hope that it is going to get many many $ when it
enters the stock market.
Yiorgos Adamopoulos
> In all my entire career as a software programer/engineer I've never been
>softeware engineers and none of them are expected to work more than 45 hours
>a week. So the idea that someone might leave programming in order to flee 80
>hours a week simply makes no sense to me.
It makes to me.
>> Someone may dislike travel.
>
> Huh? In my entire career as a software engineer only twice did a company
>ask me to fly anywhere. Again, this doesn't appear to me to be a good reason
>to leave IT.
Again, you bring on the table one example, and I and possibly others can
bring the counterexample. This is not very productive for a discussion,
but it is a simple way to prove that what you think, is not necesserily
what really happens arround you.
>> Who knows. Changing careers is
>> rarely about money.
>
> Personally I think the article was exactly correct about the fact that a
^^^^^^^^^^
You have to think on a wider scale. You are one of how many IT workers?
What makes you believe that your case is the general case?
>lot of people leave IT, but the idea that this indicates that working
>conditions or salaries in IT are horrible is naive IMHO. In fact it very
It is very very true. It is definately very true in my country.
>easily could imply the opposite, that salaries and benefits are high enough
>to allow people to take some time off from working altogether. One
Agreed.
>consultant I know did just this. He had accumulated enough money in the bank
>that he colud just quit and take a few months off. He is one those that left
I have done this too. But please note that a consultant is not in any
case an IT worker. A consultant is always someone from out of town that
comes in, get higlhy paid for a small amound of time and (supposedly)
helps clean / sort out a mess. And when the consultant is not working,
the consultant strives to keep his techincal excellence on the field.
So in fact, the consultant is working, and maybe even harder.
>IT at that point in time, but he sure wasn't hurting. Another possible
Oh really? Then why did he leave?
>reason for high dropout rates is that many people find out that they can not
>do the work. Programming requires character traits that most people simply
>do not possess. I'd be interested seeing a more in depth study of the
Yiorgos Adamopoulos
He may have no other alternative.
Yiorgos Adamopoulos
>Could also explain why the US is outsourcing such jobs offshore,
>too. Stands to reason that the best in another country are better
>than the mediocre in the US, and cost a lot less too.
[ Since I am in another country ]
The cost of living is way lower here (and even lower in Eastern Europe).
So it costs less to have offshore companies with good programmers, than
have them [ programmers ] employed in the US.
Then again, there is always great fuss for H1B VISAs, so there is real
need for programmers in the US too.
Yiorgos Adamopoulos
>> Could also explain why the US is outsourcing such jobs offshore,
>> too. Stands to reason that the best in another country are better
>> than the mediocre in the US, and cost a lot less too.
>
Really? Then what has?
Yiorgos Adamopoulos
> The good programmers might not be the ones that are leaving.
It could be that tired programmers are the ones that are leaving.
Yiorgos Adamopoulos
>The ones who make a career at one company are the ones who can do the
>delicate balancing act between screwing up just enough to be needed but
>not enough to sink the company.
This is very true. And it is very true IMO, for the following reasons:
- If you finish your projects too quicly, then this is not perceived as
a meter of excellence. It is thought that the project was an easy
one, therefore you finished quickly (and not because you were good).
- If you are slow on a project, it is thought that you are incompetent
and the project is an easy one (or at least not a difficult task to
undertake). So then people think you are no good.
So when you think that something is going to take a month, you need to
ask for three and deliver in 75 days.
John Jacobson
> As always: who cares about you? You're one guy. With zero credibility,
I love you too Phil.
> I'd also add. I, on the other hand, am speaking from experience.
LOL. Sorry but rectal locution is not a relevant type of experence.
> Moreover, your "entire" career as a FTE SSE is how long? Four years did
> you say.
No, that is not what I said. You are way off. But that doesn't matter
anyway, as you yourself said when defending your tasteless anonymous posts,
that it doesn't matter WHO said something but rather what they said.
> You'll talk when you grow up, sonny.
I suppose you meant "We'll talk when you grow up", but given your
advanced senility we've come to expect miscommunication from you. Your
misthinking has already alerted us to your condition.
> Who cares? You're a known dumbfuck. Something not making sense to you is
> rather normal, as nothing makes sense to a fool or dishonest shill...
>Again, who cares
> what you had/not had to do? You're one guy, and you like to lie a lot
> besides... Well, your HO isn't worth much <g>.
I'd be scared if you did *not* think of me that way. That's fine. I pay
attention to uselessly bigoted old fucks like you like I pay attention to
undigested corn in my feces. Curious and perhaps worthy of a few seconds of
entertainment, but not of any greater significance.
John Jacobson
"Nicholas Geovanis" <nic...@merle.acns.nwu.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.HPX.4.10.100100...@merle.acns.nwu.edu...
> On Sun, 1 Oct 2000, John Jacobson wrote:
>
> > In all my entire career as a software programer/engineer I've never
been
> > expected to work 80 hours a week (or even more than 50).
>
> consultant (1989-1996), the 50-hour week was routine and the 60-hour week
> was quite common. It was also the case that I wasn't paid for the
> so-called overtime until I started consulting, when my consulting firm
> charged for all of my time (and paid me part of what they charged).
<shrug> I had one employer who thought he was going to get those kind of
hours out of me. I left after the first lost weekend. I refuse to put up
with that kind of crap.
Tony
transfer the value of my work to someone else? who needs a job when freedom
is the issue? etc. Afterall, programming isn't a job, it's means of
production. Once one moves up one notch and is able to design, he's got
pretty much the important makings of a small company (and exactly those
makings that the employer hasn't made the sacrifices to obtain). So why
_would_ they continue with employment where others impose their will upon
them and steal their property?
So in a nutshell, they are leaving because of the injustices, the unethical
behaviours/human rights violations. And it's a good thing too, that they're
beginning to stop acting like sheep to the slaughter.
Tony
"Jay" <j...@jay.jay.org> wrote in message
news:39D63C0B...@jay.jay.org...
> Are tech workers in short supply
> From Knowledge@Wharton
> Special to CNET News.com
> September 28, 2000, 4:00 a.m.
>
> http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1007-200-2880309.html?tag=st.ne.1430735..ni
>
> A relevant quote from the article:
>
> "What's really unusual about this situation is that so
> many people are quitting the IT profession," says Cappelli,
> who is also director of Wharton's center for human resources.
> "The number of workers who quit the programming field every year,
> for example, exceeds the number of new programming jobs. It's peculiar
> to have a field that's thought to be so hot, yet where so many
> people are leaving in droves."
>
> Jay
Tony
> Programming, as it is now, is this way not because of computer science,
> but due to how the management treats people in that profession. Which is
> like a buch of cheap morons to squeeze and kick out. Having access to a
> billion Indian H1Bs on the workforce side, and a bunch of politicians
> like our good friend Mr Moynihan (now retired), who are only too glad to
> legislate no competition on the business side (via things like 1706),
> they will never have a need to change anything. Of course, they may need
> to spend a couple of bucks on a piece of shit like you, so someone keeps
> on posting lies 24x7 trying to befuddle people with crude lies.
One isn't very smart to begin with if he's giving away source code.
Basically, that's putting one's self out of business. In a world where many
people spend there entire lives looking for someone else's sacrifices to
capitalize on, that is really, really dumb.
Tony
Tony
"John Jacobson" <joh...@xnet.com> wrote in message
news:8r8shd$58u$1...@flood.xnet.com...
> The good programmers might not be the ones that are leaving. I've never
> seen any shortage of jobs for experienced good programmers.
Of course "good programmers" means ones who will give up inventions, years
of R&D, ownership rights etc. for a project paycheck. Just like recruiting
military members requires enlisting impressionable youth, so mostly does
IS/IT work. Just say NO to anyone who tries to capitalize on your sacrifices
or take away your rights such as your right to your intellectual property.
Tony
Rommert J. Casimir
>
> If good programmers do 20 times as much useful work as bad ones, but get paid
> the same, it makes more sense for them to leave, if they're underpaid by a
> factor of 20. They can go into business for themselves, to get the full
> benefit of their higher productivity.
If this is true, the software industry is in very bad shape. It could be
much improved if it employed sports trainers. Just look at the
difference between ordiray club members and olympic champions. Where
results are times, the difference is no more than 10-20%. Even totally
untrained and elderly people run the 100 m in half a minute, 3 times the
record.
a@b.c
wrote:
>If this is true, the software industry is in very bad shape. It could be
>much improved if it employed sports trainers. Just look at the
You are assuming software is a sport which benefits from sports training.
That assumption is controversial, and should not be taken for granted.
In my opinion the real main reason for the large productivity ratio between
good and bad programmers is that there is usually not enough incentive to do
good programming. It's a lot of work requiring a lot of motivation, which
most people don't have. Bad programmers get paid almost as much as good
ones, and sometimes more, so their pay doesn't provide enough incentive.
One reason why bad programmers are in such high demand is that their
supervisors need to have as many people working for them as possible, to have
higher status within their organization hierarchies. Bad programmers are
easier to hire and work with, because they suck up more as a substitute for
doing good work.
A good programmer threatens to make his boss look incompetent. Being young
helps, because a young person has more years of learning ahead before being
ready to replace his boss.
That may be the real reason why middle aged programmers are not wanted,
especially if they're competent.
Pete McBreen, McBreen.Consulting
>a@b.c wrote:
>>
>> If good programmers do 20 times as much useful work as bad ones,
but get paid
>> the same, it makes more sense for them to leave, if they're
underpaid by a
>> factor of 20. They can go into business for themselves, to get
the full
>> benefit of their higher productivity.
>
could be
>much improved if it employed sports trainers. Just look at the
>results are times, the difference is no more than 10-20%. Even
totally
>untrained and elderly people run the 100 m in half a minute, 3 times
the
>record.
But is software development a mechanical task? If it is, then a
physical analogy works well.
But maybe software development is an intyellectual task. Maybe a
better analogy is how long does it take a translator to translate a
short book - say Fred Brooks "Mythical Man Month" - from the original
American English into say Norwegian. I wonder what the difference in
performance would be between an untrained individual and an expert
translator. My guess is that the difference would probably be more
than a factor of 20, especially if neither knew Norwegian before the
start of the project.
Pete
----
Pete McBreen, McBreen.Consulting , Cochrane, AB
email: petem...@acm.org http://www.mcbreen.ab.ca/
Software development is meant to be fun,
if it isn't the process is wrong
Rommert J. Casimir
>
> In my opinion the real main reason for the large productivity ratio between
> good and bad programmers is that there is usually not enough incentive to do
> good programming. It's a lot of work requiring a lot of motivation, which
> most people don't have. Bad programmers get paid almost as much as good
> ones, and sometimes more, so their pay doesn't provide enough incentive.
Now that 's the surprising thing. Ostensibly, there are people (sports
trainers) who can motivate people to run the 100 m just 0.1 seconds
faster, with the (mostly idle) hope of some medal os the only
remuneration. So why aren't there people who can motivate programmers to
build good programs? I am inclined to take agree with you: the reason is
managers don't want good programs or good programmers.
Rommert J. Casimir
> But is software development a mechanical task? If it is, then a
> physical analogy works well.
>
> But maybe software development is an intyellectual task. Maybe a
> better analogy is how long does it take a translator to translate a
> short book - say Fred Brooks "Mythical Man Month" - from the original
> American English into say Norwegian. I wonder what the difference in
> performance would be between an untrained individual and an expert
> translator. My guess is that the difference would probably be more
> than a factor of 20, especially if neither knew Norwegian before the
> start of the project.
Your analogy is correct, but then, a responsible editor would entrust
the translation of "The mythical man month" only to someone who
a) has Norwegian as his/her mother tongue
b) has a very good command of English
c) has a general knowledge of software engineering
d) has some experience with writing and/or translation
In that case, the best and the worst candidate would probably differ by
a factor of two, and as translators are paid by the word, it doesn't
matter to the editor.
So what uyou are really saying is that the software industry has no way
to select good employees
a@b.c
<mcbr...@cadvision.com> wrote:
>better analogy is how long does it take a translator to translate a
>short book - say Fred Brooks "Mythical Man Month" - from the original
That might be a good analogy to how long it takes to translate a program from
its original programming language to a new one.
Pete McBreen, McBreen.Consulting
>Pete McBreen, McBreen.Consulting wrote:
>> But is software development a mechanical task? If it is, then a
>> physical analogy works well.
>>
>> But maybe software development is an intyellectual task. Maybe a
a
>> short book - say Fred Brooks "Mythical Man Month" - from the
original
in
>> performance would be between an untrained individual and an expert
>> translator. My guess is that the difference would probably be more
>> than a factor of 20, especially if neither knew Norwegian before
the
>> start of the project.
>
>Your analogy is correct, but then, a responsible editor would
entrust
>the translation of "The mythical man month" only to someone who
>a) has Norwegian as his/her mother tongue
>b) has a very good command of English
>c) has a general knowledge of software engineering
>d) has some experience with writing and/or translation
>
>In that case, the best and the worst candidate would probably differ
by
>a factor of two, and as translators are paid by the word, it doesn't
>matter to the editor.
>
way
>to select good employees
I wasn't aware that I was saying that at all.
I was questioning the nature of software development and highlighting
possible causes for the variability in the performance of software
development.
Given that 20 to 1 is common, what are the possible causes. As your
editor example points out, experience may be a big factor, so it pays
managers to be very specific with their hiring criteria. But the more
specific you get, the smaller the available talent pool, and hence
the claims about a shortage of skilled developers.
As a hypothetical example, suppose a job asks for
Java1.3/EJB/Servlets/Apache/Cocoon/DB2/AIX there are probably a few
people who have that skillset, so we will restrict it futher by
asking for Windows 2000/Visual C++/Access and to make sure the talent
pool is really tiny ask for experience as lead designer/developer for
e-commerce sites the size of Amazon.com, and knowledge of opticians
and HMO's (I'm going to launch a site selling contact lenses over the
web). Is there going to be anyone out there with a perfect match? If
you have all of that you would probably be a good employee for the
project, but we cannot get all of the criteria.
So now the question becomes, how does missing one or more of these
pieces slow down your productivity on the project and are there other
factors that could affect the overall project productivity?
Add in the usual schedule compression to meet desired launch dates
and we can add even more variability to the mix.
Tony
> gav...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <8r6ut8$vk0$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>,
> > "Margaret Bartley" <REMOVETHISma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Margaret Bartley? Hi Marge! Long time no see. Small world eh? Found any good
definitions lately? ;) (Just razzin' you a bit).
Tony
keith smyth
Hi Governor or staffer -
I was reading the results of your "Governor's Technology Workforce Summit"
http://www.governor.wa.gov/techsummit/priorities.htm . Some of the ideas
are good, but the main issues are missed.
Next time it might be an idea to get actual technology workers involved the
next time you have a conference on us -- not just our overseers, not just
the salespeople looking to have us manufacture their products. Who better
knows the problems facing us than we ourselves?
I'd like to suggest that before taking further action you have one or more
of your staff take a look at this article:
http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1007-200-2880309.html?tag=st.ne.1430735..ni
This article, by the Wharton School concisely describes most of the reasons
that companies are having trouble getting IT (information technology) staff.
The problem is not a lack of people entering the field.
THE PROBLEM IS LARGELY THE TERRIBLE RATE OF PEOPLE LEAVING THE FIELD. And
they not leaving to go into management. They are leaving to go into
something anything else.
Companies treat IT workers differently than they treat any other type of
worker. We are treated in ways that are known to increase turnover and to
cause burnout.
Here is a second, more thorough academic paper on IT human resources
practices:
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/pub/Immigration/ImmigAndComputerIndustry/SVRep
ort.html
Thanks for your time.
- Keith
keith smyth
> > > Those kinds of jobs must be better paying than the IT field otherwise
> > > it would make no sense to change career.
> > people change jobs or careers, money isn't the only nor the most
> > important among them. I'd even say, when changing careers, immediate
> > difference in income is very secondary. For example, someone might want
> > to get a quieter job where he could work 40, not 80 hrs a week--even if
> > it pays less.
>
been
few
> softeware engineers and none of them are expected to work more than 45
hours
> a week. So the idea that someone might leave programming in order to flee
80
> hours a week simply makes no sense to me.
Are you saying it doesn't happen? Or are you saying it hasn't happened to
you so you can't express an educated opinion?
>
> > Someone may dislike travel.
>
> Huh? In my entire career as a software engineer only twice did a
company
> ask me to fly anywhere. Again, this doesn't appear to me to be a good
reason
> to leave IT.
>
Are you saying it doesn't happen? Or are you saying it hasn't happened to
you so you can't express an educated opinion?
> > Who knows. Changing careers is
> > rarely about money.
>
> Personally I think the article was exactly correct about the fact that
a
> lot of people leave IT, but the idea that this indicates that working
> conditions or salaries in IT are horrible is naive IMHO. In fact it very
> easily could imply the opposite, that salaries and benefits are high
enough
> to allow people to take some time off from working altogether. One
> consultant I know did just this. He had accumulated enough money in the
bank
> that he colud just quit and take a few months off. He is one those that
left
> IT at that point in time, but he sure wasn't hurting. Another possible
> reason for high dropout rates is that many people find out that they can
not
> do the work. Programming requires character traits that most people simply
> do not possess. I'd be interested seeing a more in depth study of the
> *reasons* people give for leaving IT.
If someone actually can't do the work, that will show up in the first 3 to 6
months. If they are kept on beyond that, then there is a managment problem,
with the manager not being able to deliver bad news to staff.
I'd like to see a more indepth study too. There are lots of possible
reasons for dropping out. Having worked with a lot of people who have
dropped out, up until 2000 I would say the majority did so because of the
backroom nature of the work, that lack of room for real creativity (this is
pre-visual whatever), and the lack of appreciation and recognition. And
during the pre-2000 timeframe, having spoken with a lot of other project
leaders and managers, I would say this is a popular concensus. Contrary to
popular opinion, management usually wants
Post 2000, I'd say a most people now leave because they can't find suitable
work in the field, even after retraining, are unable to afford adequate
retraining, or due to age discrimination.
Of course not everyone leaves for the common reasons. Not only will some
have left due to making so much money, some will have left due to injury and
illness. As you say, a more indepth study is needed and noone can argue
with that.
- Keith
>
>
>
keith smyth
>
> "Nicholas Geovanis" <nic...@merle.acns.nwu.edu> wrote in message
> news:Pine.HPX.4.10.100100...@merle.acns.nwu.edu...
> > On Sun, 1 Oct 2000, John Jacobson wrote:
> >
> been
> > > expected to work 80 hours a week (or even more than 50).
> >
> > consultant (1989-1996), the 50-hour week was routine and the 60-hour
week
> > was quite common. It was also the case that I wasn't paid for the
> > so-called overtime until I started consulting, when my consulting firm
> > charged for all of my time (and paid me part of what they charged).
>
> <shrug> I had one employer who thought he was going to get those kind
of
> hours out of me. I left after the first lost weekend. I refuse to put up
> with that kind of crap.
>
>
That is the kind of attitude we need more of. You see it in other fields.
It is called professionalism. Amateurs work for free. Tradesmen have
little control over how they do their work.
In programming, and even analysis, we are treated like sheep largely because
we act the part.
This explains how you are unware of how much of the industry involves travel
and long hours.
Hang onto that job.
- Keith
keith smyth
solution or a big paycut.
I don't have the financial resources to go back to school and learn another
profession. I would if I could afford it.
I find the idea of sales intimidating. Although I did do sales, complete
with cold calls, in my university days, that was a long time ago.
Not wanting to be too morbid, I have a dog. I'm certainly not going to off
myself until he's gone. Who knows later. Maybe things will be better then.
Keep in mind, the suicide rate in some IT companies is high. Does anyone
have a link to a site where we can check out suicide rates by industry or
profession?
Finally we have the big paycut. And leaving to go into an unskilled job, or
semi-skilled job means it is a fairly large paycut. This may well happen.
- Keith
"John Jacobson" <joh...@xnet.com> wrote in message
news:8r8rk3$4sp$1...@flood.xnet.com...
>
> "Jay" <j...@jay.jay.org> wrote in message
> news:39D7926E...@jay.jay.org...
keith smyth
so they leave the field that way.
This leaves "they got promoted" as a less likely cause for the better IT
workers leaving.
- Keith
"Spehro Pefhany" <sp...@interlog.com> wrote in message
news:jiLB5.66620$dZ2.23...@news3.rdc1.on.home.com...
> In alt.computer.consultants Andrew Gabb <ag...@tpgi.com.au> wrote:
>
> > productivity between those at the top and bottom (vaguely useful)
> > end is 20:1 or so.
>
> I'd have said more like 10:1, but yes, this is a fact that the
> less-productive programmers very seldom bring up.
>
> Best regards,
> --
>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
=
> Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the
reward"
> sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers:
http://www.trexon.com
> Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers:
http://www.speff.com
> Contributions invited->The AVR-gcc FAQ is at:
http://www.BlueCollarLinux.com
>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
=
keith smyth
market producing some of those products in other countries.
I don't support the idea of the US having to provide handouts to other
countries. Better to let them be productive too. We make stuff for them.
Let them make stuff for us.
Now first, not all countries are less expensive than the US. Several
European countries, and some countries like Saudi Arabia have higher labor
costs. And when you take into account productivity and taxation, relative
labor costs in the US are even lower.
Secondly, how many of us work for companies that allow us to telecommute?
If you are working in a business and the whole business can relocate, okay,
going to another country is an option.
However, for business based IT, the analysts and programmers must not merely
be in the same city as the client, but in the same building. So having the
work done overseas is not an option for employers in that sector of our
industry.
My problem is with indentured labor here, and with working conditions here.
These are the issues we need to focus on. Let us not drift on into anything
that our critics can call xenophobia.
Yes H1Bs are damaging the profession in the USA.
I can tell you, if every programmer in the country e-mailed Clinton tonight,
he'd veto the H1B bill tomorrow.
- Keith
"Yiorgos Adamopoulos" <ad...@dblab.ece.ntua.gr> wrote in message
news:slrn8tgv2k...@city.dbnet.ece.ntua.gr...
John Jacobson
"keith smyth" <k177...@SPAMMhome.com> wrote in message
news:rrtD5.8503$6O5.7...@news1.rdc1.mb.home.com...
> > <shrug> I had one employer who thought he was going to get those kind
> of
> > hours out of me. I left after the first lost weekend. I refuse to put up
> > with that kind of crap.
> >
> >
>
> That is the kind of attitude we need more of. You see it in other fields.
> It is called professionalism. Amateurs work for free. Tradesmen have
> little control over how they do their work.
>
> In programming, and even analysis, we are treated like sheep largely
because
> we act the part.
>
> This explains how you are unware of how much of the industry involves
travel
> and long hours.
I know that parts of the industry do involve travel and long hours, but
that is because there are people out there who think all IT jobs require
that and so they put up with it, or they know that the grass is greener
elsewhere but don't want to change jobs. It isn't because those people are
forced into it. They simply act the part, as you so excellently put it.
John Jacobson
"keith smyth" <k177...@SPAMMhome.com> wrote in message
> >
> > "Phil Eamon" <phi...@blarney.att.net> wrote in message
> > news:39D79207...@blarney.att.net...
> > > > Those kinds of jobs must be better paying than the IT field
otherwise
> > > > it would make no sense to change career.
> > > Absolutely not true. There may be all kinds of reasons that can make
> > > people change jobs or careers, money isn't the only nor the most
> > > important among them. I'd even say, when changing careers, immediate
> > > difference in income is very secondary. For example, someone might
want
> > > to get a quieter job where he could work 40, not 80 hrs a week--even
if
> > > it pays less.
> >
> been
> few
> > softeware engineers and none of them are expected to work more than 45
> hours
> > a week. So the idea that someone might leave programming in order to
flee
> 80
> > hours a week simply makes no sense to me.
>
> Are you saying it doesn't happen? Or are you saying it hasn't happened to
> you so you can't express an educated opinion?
I'm saying it is not universal and people that are being expected to put
in 60-80 hour weeks should tell their bosses to shove it and go get a real
job, because nobody has to put up with that kind of crap in this market and
economy. There are plenty of better jobs. That is what I'm saying.
> > Personally I think the article was exactly correct about the fact
that
> a
> > lot of people leave IT, but the idea that this indicates that working
> > conditions or salaries in IT are horrible is naive IMHO. In fact it very
> > easily could imply the opposite, that salaries and benefits are high
> enough
> > to allow people to take some time off from working altogether. One
> > consultant I know did just this. He had accumulated enough money in the
> bank
> > that he colud just quit and take a few months off. He is one those that
> left
> > IT at that point in time, but he sure wasn't hurting. Another possible
> > reason for high dropout rates is that many people find out that they can
> not
> > do the work. Programming requires character traits that most people
simply
> > do not possess. I'd be interested seeing a more in depth study of the
> > *reasons* people give for leaving IT.
>
> If someone actually can't do the work, that will show up in the first 3 to
6
> months. If they are kept on beyond that, then there is a managment
problem,
> with the manager not being able to deliver bad news to staff.
Well, I think there is a management problem, and people *are* held on far
longer than 6 months who really out to be booted out of the profession.
>
> I'd like to see a more indepth study too. There are lots of possible
> reasons for dropping out. Having worked with a lot of people who have
> dropped out, up until 2000 I would say the majority did so because of the
> backroom nature of the work, that lack of room for real creativity (this
is
> pre-visual whatever), and the lack of appreciation and recognition.
This is a real problem, and I think it stems primarily from the inability
of management to understand the nature of programming and programmers.
> And
> during the pre-2000 timeframe, having spoken with a lot of other project
> leaders and managers, I would say this is a popular concensus. Contrary
to
> popular opinion, management usually wants
Eh? It looks like that paragraph was incomplete.
>
> Post 2000, I'd say a most people now leave because they can't find
suitable
> work in the field, even after retraining, are unable to afford adequate
> retraining, or due to age discrimination.
>
> Of course not everyone leaves for the common reasons. Not only will some
> have left due to making so much money, some will have left due to injury
and
> illness. As you say, a more indepth study is needed and noone can argue
> with that.
I think the shortage of experienced programmers is due primarily to the
non-retention of entrants to the profession, so that if they really want to
alleviate this shortage of experienced programmers they need to find out why
people are leaving programming.
>
> - Keith
>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
an...@anon.non
>economy. There are plenty of better jobs. That is what I'm saying.
That is changing fast. 195,000 new H1B's starting immediately, plus
unlimited government and educational H1B's. If the previous 115,000 included
government and educational, the increase is a lot bigger than it seems. The
average earnings of the H1B's has to go down, because they compete against
each other. And those lower average earnings are what all of our earnings
will be compared with. Employers might pay a premium to hire non-H1B
Americans, but that premium will be limited.
Tony
> I think the shortage of experienced programmers is due primarily to the
> non-retention of entrants to the profession, so that if they really want
to
> alleviate this shortage of experienced programmers they need to find out
why
> people are leaving programming.
Because most are wising up to programming being only a stepping stone and
not a destination. As soon as the recruits learn how to do it, they stop
doing it for someone else because they don't get the value of their
contribution in compensation.
Tony
John Jacobson
<an...@anon.non> wrote in message
news:urcvtssjgacrttpdh...@4ax.com...
Yeah right. With 1.5 million new IT jobs being created this next year,
even if there were 250,000 people coming in just for IT it woilud still be
just a drop in the bucket for overall IT. As for experienced programmers, it
is totally irrelevant. Give your shill salary back, you are convincing
nobody.
an...@anon.non
> Yeah right. With 1.5 million new IT jobs being created this next year,
What does it mean to create a job? If you add it to a list of jobs, but
never make much of an effort to fill it, never interview anyone for it, and
reject 1000 applications for it, have you created a job?
A lot of headhunters list job openings whose only purpose is to add to the
resume database of the headhunter, so they can sell their services to more
companies on the basis of being a bigger headhunter with a bigger resume
database.
I tried to hire some C++ programmers a couple of years ago. It was fairly
easy to narrow them down to the ones I wanted, but I couldn't hire any of
them, because the approval for each hire was delayed a number of weeks, and
by that time the candidate would have found another job. Our job vacancies
were easily among those considered "created" by people such as yourself, but
we never made a sincere and competent effort to fill them, so common sense
would say we didn't really create any jobs.
Those 1.5 million new IT jobs simply aren't real. If a company wants to hire
programmers, they can. Therefore, if they have vacancies for programmers,
those vacancies are just numbers, not real jobs.
WesTralia
[snip]
>
> My problem is with indentured labor here, and with working conditions here.
> These are the issues we need to focus on. Let us not drift on into anything
> that our critics can call xenophobia.
>
> Yes H1Bs are damaging the profession in the USA.
>
> I can tell you, if every programmer in the country e-mailed Clinton tonight,
> he'd veto the H1B bill tomorrow.
>
I wonder sometimes if the H1B visa doesn't violate some law, legislation,
or some constitutional right of the American citizen? After all, we have
the EEOC (Equal Employment Opportunity Commission) who's sole purpose is
to make sure the citizens of the USA have equal employment opportunities.
I do not see how having H1Bs is the work force provides equal employment
opportunities for Americans since the H1B may not leave their employeer
for 6 years without loss of visa and monetary fines in the thousands of
dollars. The H1B receives no 401K, profit sharing, or pension.
I wonder if a lawsuit could be brought against the US Congress for meddling
in the free market with its wage busting, "price fixing" H1B visa scheme?
Has the ACLU taken a look into the H1B visa issue?
-wt