Obstacles to Finding a Programming Job
Claudius Proculus
programmers while, at the same time, programmer salaries have risen with
inflation. The portrayal is such that people on the outside think that anyone
can just walk into a computer job.
I was wondering, how would people in the profession describe the difficulties
in finding jobs. Personel people who treat people like dirt? Companies that
throw out resumes?
If you were laid off today, why would it not be easy for you to simply walk
into another job tomorrow. Or could you?
John - N8086N
Wise man says "Never use a bank with the initials F. U."
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Gene Gajewski
Claudius Proculus wrote in message
<7chcoj$l86$1...@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
>The "leaders" of the computer industry have been portraying a huge shortage
of
>programmers while, at the same time, programmer salaries have risen with
>inflation. The portrayal is such that people on the outside think that
anyone
>can just walk into a computer job.
>
>I was wondering, how would people in the profession describe the
difficulties
>in finding jobs. Personel people who treat people like dirt? Companies that
>throw out resumes?
>
>If you were laid off today, why would it not be easy for you to simply walk
>into another job tomorrow. Or could you?
>
I'd have no problem getting a job. I might take a month or two to filter out
job offers with no growth potential though. The so called 'programmer
shortage' is due to job offers with ridiculous specialization requirements.
It's a sign of the times. No one wants to invest in a programmer and 'grow'
their skill base. They want it NOW. As in everything, 'now' costs money.
Somebody had to make that investment in skills, whether his previous
employer or on his own.
It all boils down to companies crying about about a lack of available
programmers, while stealing them from each other. It's all about money, as
usual.
Jonathan Allan
> Claudius Proculus wrote in message
> <7chcoj$l86$1...@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
> >The "leaders" of the computer industry have been portraying a huge
> >shortage of programmers while, at the same time, programmer salaries
> >have risen with inflation.
Have they? I've seen several surveys that say otherwise.
Until very recently, programmers salaries were lagging
inflation in the USA...
> It all boils down to companies crying about about a lack of available
> programmers, while stealing them from each other. It's all about money,
> as usual.
Hee hee hee!
In a city not too far away from me is a small manufacturer
with an AS/400 in thier shop. They have a billboard along the
local highway, begging for a programmer. They want this programmer
to program, empty the printer, carry a beeper 24x7, and maintain
thier system. Thier last jack-of-all-trades quit a year ago and
they haven't touched thier system since (a testament to the AS/400
really - try to get NT to do that, but that's just a sidelight).
A consultant buddy of mine talked to them about thier needs.
They want a small program written immediately, and an operator
they rest of the time. He offered to write thier program for
them at his standard rate - some USD18000. They refused; they
beleive they can find a jack-of-all-trades for that price annually.
I just saw a CW salary survey which indicated AS/400 programmers
are averaging USD48000, which represents an uptick after several
years of flat earnings. One could almost make USD18000 by
flipping burgers or stocking shelves.
Think they'll fill that position any time soon? There isn't a
shortage of programmers in this country. There's a shortage of
*cheap* programmers...
--
Jonathan Allan
Neither Mayo Clinic nor I speak for each other unless we explicitly
say so. You should assume I am speaking only for myself.
Please remove the antispam ".6809" to reply direct to me. Thanks!
Dave Aronson (remove x's to reply)
> There isn't a shortage of programmers in this country. There's a
> shortage of *cheap* programmers...
More specifically, there's a shortage of cheap programmers with the
specific combinations of experiences that most employers demand.
Let us suppose you have X years of doing database in C on a VAX running
VMS, Y years of doing communications in VB under Windoze NT, and Z years
doing graphics in Pascal on a Stratus under Unix, plus enough other
experience to indicate that you can learn anything quickly. An ad
appears in the paper for a progger with N (< any of X, Y, or Z) years of
doing database in Pascal on a VAX running Unix. You've done database,
Pascal, VAX, and Unix, each for > N years, some in combo -- but will
they consider you at all? Only if they are unusually clueful... and
weren't tailoring the ad to apply only to the boss's nephew.
--
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Support Rep. Smith's no-spam bill, NOT Sen. Murkowski's spam-is-OK one!
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Ralph Cook
> Jonathan Allan <allan.jon...@mayo.edu> writes:
>
> > There isn't a shortage of programmers in this country. There's a
> > shortage of *cheap* programmers...
>
> More specifically, there's a shortage of cheap programmers with the
> specific combinations of experiences that most employers demand.
>
> Let us suppose you have X years of doing database in C on a VAX running
> VMS, Y years of doing communications in VB under Windoze NT, and Z years
> doing graphics in Pascal on a Stratus under Unix, plus enough other
> experience to indicate that you can learn anything quickly. An ad
> appears in the paper for a progger with N (< any of X, Y, or Z) years of
> doing database in Pascal on a VAX running Unix. You've done database,
> Pascal, VAX, and Unix, each for > N years, some in combo -- but will
> they consider you at all? Only if they are unusually clueful... and
> weren't tailoring the ad to apply only to the boss's nephew.
>
I'm afraid part of the problem is that skill in programming is not well
correlated to experience, but practically no one knows how to measure
anything that does correlate (at least not quickly). I've worked with
10-year people that still struggle with the difference between compile-time
and run-time as concepts, and have taught a few people programming
that I could hand design jobs to within their first year. The hiring
authorities
can't tell which is which within this wide range during hiring, so they do
what
they know -- require more and more specific experience.
I also connect it to the industry's unbelievable fascination with coding as
the
ultimate programming activity -- requiring years of experience in a specific
language for a permanent job is poor judgement. Would they require
a bus driver to have driven the specific make of bus the fleet is driving
today?
Makes just as much sense...
rc
--
When I do speak for my company, I list my title and use "we".
johnd...@my-dejanews.com
already have "a" job. Finding a "great" job is an enormous challenge.
To add to the amusement of this thread, here are my favorite events
during interviews that will shape my image of the interviewing company:
1. The interviewer(s) read your resume for the first time when you
appear for the interview.
2. The interviewing manager starts bragging about the complexity
(size of DB in millions of tables....)
And on the financial side:
3. Manager brags about how his company charges $xx.xxx.xxx for certain
projects, then is very suprised to learn that I want $ 1xx.xxx / year.
My own conclusion is that going freelance/independant seems to be the
best choice in the current market. (just need to brush up my sales skills...)
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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Ed Prochak
Ralph Cook <rc...@pobox.com> wrote:
> "Dave Aronson (remove x's to reply)" wrote:
>
> > Jonathan Allan <allan.jon...@mayo.edu> writes:
> >
> > > There isn't a shortage of programmers in this country. There's a
> > > shortage of *cheap* programmers...
> >
> > More specifically, there's a shortage of cheap programmers with the
> > specific combinations of experiences that most employers demand.
> >
(which is yet another class of worker).
[snip
>
> I'm afraid part of the problem is that skill in programming is not well
> correlated to experience, but practically no one knows how to measure
> anything that does correlate (at least not quickly). I've worked with
> 10-year people that still struggle with the difference between compile-time
> and run-time as concepts, and have taught a few people programming
> that I could hand design jobs to within their first year. The hiring
> authorities
> can't tell which is which within this wide range during hiring, so they do
> what
> they know -- require more and more specific experience.
That's pretty much all HR can do. They cannot become too familiar with
computer skill sets since they have to filter programmers, janitors,
accountants, industrial engineers, ....
IT Managers on the other hand should be able to figure this out.
>
> I also connect it to the industry's unbelievable fascination with coding as
> the
> ultimate programming activity -- requiring years of experience in a specific
>
> language for a permanent job is poor judgement. Would they require
> a bus driver to have driven the specific make of bus the fleet is driving
> today?
> Makes just as much sense...
You lost me on the analogy. It's more like Airline Pilots. And I'm sure the
Airline companies that fly using Boeing 747's prefer to hire a pilot with
2years on 747's instead of one with 10 years on various turboprop planes.
Our problem is an industry that needs 747 pilots. But when these are not
available they want to hire cheap turboprop pilots without considering the
pilots that have flown nearly equivalent Airbus models. When the requirements
don't match exactly, they lean toward "cheap".
>
> rc
> --
> When I do speak for my company, I list my title and use "we".
>
>
It is sometimes fascinating to see companies with strict, detailed
requirements for direct job openings. They filter and screen to narrow the
field for what is supposed to be long term employment. Then in a crunch they
hire contractors and accept nearly anyone the contract firm says is
qualified, and (gasp!) sometimes they do not have the skills needed.
What would make more sense is find the potential employee that is trainable
and committed to the long term growth of the company (Still a very difficult
problem). (Hiring/promoting from within the company is one way to handle the
second factor). Then bring them up to speed and keep them trained. Look at
employees as long term resources. (Some companies spend more money
maintaining and upgrading their equipment than on training and upgrading
their employees.)
When hiring contract workers, filter for specific skills and experience.
Contractors should handle their own training. (I do.) When the job's done, the
contract worker can be released. Treat them like rented equipment in that the
rental/contract firm should handle upgrades and training.
Ed Prochak
Magic Interface, Ltd.
ORACLE services
440-498-3702
Mike Mohr
> When my dad looked for work in the 1960's, he says they waited to the
> end of the selection process to "dicker" over the salary. Employers
> don't dicker any more. They have their figure but they want you to go
> first. But not all the time. I saw an article that said that young
> people are demanding the pay ranges for jobs in advance, and I do see
> pay ranges for jobs on the jobs newsgroups and elsewhere.
>
Sometimes, in those hidden agendas, the job doesn't exist. It's just a fishing
expedition. I remember interviewing at a number of companies before getting a
permanent(?) position with a government agency. My first task with the agency
was to evaluate a number of contract proposals that included resumes of key
individuals. Strange... three of the proposals had the same individual as
project leader. What made it worse was that it was MY resume.
>
> Two famous mistakes that employers make:
> 1. Looking for 10 years experience with CGI, that is, more experience
> on a tool than it has existed.
> 2. Looking for very narrow preparation for an exact type of work.
Add to your list a lack of knowledge about the industry. I remember being
turned down for as an applicant for Senior Programmer because I didn't have
seven or more years experience as a Junior Programmer. It didn't matter that I
had already been working as a Senior Programmer/Project Leader for eight years
prior to making the application. I remember commenting at the time that I would
suspect anyone who had spent that much time coming up the ranks.
--
================================================================
Mike Mohr, Systems Administrator === Email: Mike...@ait.ac.nz
Information Technology Group === Phone: 64 9 307-9999 x8133
Auckland Institute of Technology === Fax: 64 9 307-9901
PO Box 92006, Auckland, New Zealand =
http://home.ait.ac.nz/staff/mmohr/
================================================================
If we have unlimited ability to think, why do we use computers?
JRStern
wrote:
>Sometimes, in those hidden agendas, the job doesn't exist. It's just a fishing
>expedition. I remember interviewing at a number of companies before getting a
>permanent(?) position with a government agency. My first task with the agency
>was to evaluate a number of contract proposals that included resumes of key
>individuals. Strange... three of the proposals had the same individual as
>project leader. What made it worse was that it was MY resume.
Aw, come on now, really?
J.
V ("Shaker") Chandrasekhar
JRStern wrote in message <7dcek3$edc$2...@news-2.news.gte.net>...
Some companies do things like this. They call this 'buying paper' (resumes).
Once, about ten years ago, I responded to an ad in the paper. The guy asked
me to come to a hotel for an interview. When I got there, I saw that he was
interviewing multiple candidates at one time. His company was going to bid
on a US Government contract and he was collecting resumes in this way.
V. Chandrasekhar
Joacim Persson
: JRStern wrote in message <7dcek3$edc$2...@news-2.news.gte.net>...
I suspect some companies are also advertising for personell more as a part of
their marketing tactics than having serious plans for hiring anyone.
Advertising for personell creates a positive image of the business in
media: "we're so great we have our hands full, and our only problem is
finding more personell", "we're expanding", in short. One company I know
of have yearly advertisments for personell (or more often they exploit some
clueless reporter at a local newspaper to do a story on their `problems of
finding personell'), but they haven't actually hired anyone /for years/.
Mike Mohr
> I suspect some companies are also advertising for personell more as a part of
> their marketing tactics than having serious plans for hiring anyone.
> Advertising for personell creates a positive image of the business in
> media: "we're so great we have our hands full, and our only problem is
> finding more personell", "we're expanding", in short. One company I know
> of have yearly advertisments for personell (or more often they exploit some
> clueless reporter at a local newspaper to do a story on their `problems of
> finding personell'), but they haven't actually hired anyone /for years/.
Add to that a policy by one local employer of not hiring any former employee or
contractor. Since the employer can't find anyone to employ locally, he imports
another "qualified" employee from overseas. When the project is finished, there's
another poor soul in the dole queue along with the rest of those he discarded
earlier. In the mean time, the local government disregards his "no-rehire" policy
and accepts that no local applicant will satisfy his requirements.
Jonathan Scott Headland
> I suspect some companies are also advertising for personell more as a part of
> their marketing tactics than having serious plans for hiring anyone.
> Advertising for personell creates a positive image of the business in
> media: "we're so great we have our hands full, and our only problem is
> finding more personell", "we're expanding", in short. One company I know
> of have yearly advertisments for personell (or more often they exploit some
> clueless reporter at a local newspaper to do a story on their `problems of
> finding personell'), but they haven't actually hired anyone /for years/.
That's interesting: in Italy it's often _very_ difficult to find out
which company's behind a job ad in the press, since they'll do
everything
possible to hide themselves (I once had to send a CV to a Post Restante
address, identified only by the national identity-card number of the
person who would pick it up). Why this secrecy? Because companies are
terrified that their customers will avoid them for fear of being given
inexperienced new hires.
Your mileage _does_ vary!
--
Jonathan Scott Headland
TERMA Elektronik AS
Bregneroedvej 144
DK-3460 BIRKEROED
Denmark