Need Advice on Software Engineering Job Procurement
drmario
I just left a career field where I was a Russian linguist for six years.
I've had plenty of leadership & management experience, as well as an
Associates degree in the field. I've been programming at home for about 8
years now (mostly C/C++), and I'm like 80 credits into my BS in Computer
Science. I have so much to offer, and I make such an excellent employee,
that (with all due modesty) overlooking me is any company's mistake of the
year.
Everywhere I try to get an interview they all overlook me due to a lack
of work experience in the field. People die, people change career fields,
people get fired. So by that logic the field of software engineers is
getting smaller and smaller day by day, since they can't hire anyone who has
no experience, right? Obviously not.
I don't believe that somene posessing a BS means he/she is going to be a
better employee than me. Sure if I had a degree I might make a better
employee. But it's not black and white, life isn't a game of Lemmings.
Long story short: Could I please get some pointers on how to better get
interviews in this field and land a job? While I welcome any opinion with
open arms, if you're going to say "get your degree first" you're wasting
your breath. I WILL find a job in software engineering, NOW. I don't care
how. I'm an excellent employee and somehow I will find a job in the field.
Thanks for the help!
Ted Hill
Find an open source project that you are interested in and that you can
make a contribution to.
Then on your resume, cite this open source project.
At the interview, hand them print outs of the code that you have
contributed to the project.
Having contributed to an open-source project should give you some
credibility.
jason.c...@gmail.com
> I don't believe that somene posessing a BS means he/she is going to be a
> better employee than me. Sure if I had a degree I might make a better
> employee. But it's not black and white, life isn't a game of Lemmings.
> Long story short: Could I please get some pointers on how to better get
> interviews in this field and land a job? While I welcome any opinion with
> open arms, if you're going to say "get your degree first" you're wasting
> your breath.
It's hard to give general advice. Everybody is in a different
situation. I can tell you a little about my own experiences, though.
In my own life, the importance of school was building connections, not
so much the degree. In fact, I do not have a college degree. An
internship that I landed while in college had put me on a really great
track in an interesting field that I really enjoyed (a medical
robotics company, which had started as a university research lab and
developed into a commercial company). Eventually I left school and
worked for that company full time, and by graduation time, had built
up a very strong resume and a great reputation (actually, I did not
leave school to work for that company, I left for other reasons -- but
the reputation that I had earned during my internship at the lab
scored me a job on the commercial side after I left school, despite
not having a degree). I have since stopped working for that company
full time, and am now a successful (I like to think) full-time
freelance programmer, and my reputation is still growing. That company
remains one of my clients. I am currently in the process of doing the
paperwork to make my own consulting business official, and I hope to
grow it into something larger and more successful some day.
I currently work out of New York City, I moved here relatively
recently. One new field that I have gotten into since coming here has
been (and I am being generaly) working with various modern artists
writing software to help them, well, be creative. I find the work
interesting and satisfying, and I have a steady stream of it
(sometimes too much). What started me down this path was almost sheer
luck: a friend of mine had built, shall we say, a light art
installation in a visible place (I'm leaving out the details :-), and
needed some control software and creative input in a pinch. He came to
me, and I did it. The exposure that I got from that has indirectly led
to nearly all of the non medical-robotics work that I have now (and is
becoming the majority). I have projects coming up where I have an
opportunity for a lot of creative input, as well as a lot of software
design work; I am excited about these projects.
Another thing that has contributed to my reputation is my contribution
to open source software, and contributions, such as articles, that I
have made to various public forums and other places.
How this relates to you, I think, is this: While I still have a long
ways to go on my personal path, I think that I can safely say that a
good reputation is an important part of success. You are seeing this,
of course. However, there are plenty of ways to gain a good reputation
besides simply having N years of work experience with Some Company,
Inc. Everybody has to start somewhere. Ted Hill's recommendation of
contributing to open source projects is excellent. Anything that you
can do to advertise yourself and prove to others that you are the
right person for whatever job. You can't expect to simply jump into a
field and rise straight to the top -- it just won't happen and if you
take that attitude you are only setting yourself up for
disappointment.
My situation, I think, is relatively unique, and so I am not sure how
relevant my advice is. However, I am a strong believer in starting
small, no matter what that means, and slowly building up, piece by
piece, as opportunities come. Eventually you will find that you are in
a successful position, and you may not have even realized that you got
there until you step back and take a look.
School gives you a great opportunity to make connections, if nothing
else. It is a great environment for getting started if no other such
environment exists. Start applying for jobs. You never know. I have
known people who have successfully told a small white lie with regards
to their education in job search databases, landed an interview and
never had to mention their educational background again. However, this
relied on the fact that these people knew what they were doing, and
presented themselves as the good candidates that they were in the
interview. There is always a lot to learn.
I hope that applies, or at least makes sense,
Jason
drmario
great; it's an intuition that I had but when I tried to find some project to
which I could contribute on the internet I failed. But now that I know
they're called "open source" I think I'll have some luck :-)
Jason thank you for the fabulous reply, lotsa information. I don't
actually expect to rise straight to the top. My point was simply this:
Every time I read a C/C++ developer job descrtiption I am missing only two
of the "successful candidate will posess" lines... BS and experience.
Granted those are two fairly large elements, but I have everything else and
more to offer a company. I don't expect to rise to the top. What I
expected was that I would be granted an interview, after which I would most
certainly be hired.
I'll gonna keep plugging away at my degree, got about 8-10 classes left.
It's kinda funny: since I never got college credit for it I have to take C++
Programming II as a formality. I'm so bored I wrote a class to provide tons
of formatted, reusable, output options to an output stream heh. I'll keep
your advice in mind and make connections.
Do ya'll think an MCSE certification will help? Maybe I could get one
of those before I receive my BS.
Thanks again guys!
Mario
"drmario" <drm...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:jqSEj.6521$GW5....@newsfe12.phx...
jason.c...@gmail.com
> Do ya'll think an MCSE certification will help? Maybe I could get one
> of those before I receive my BS.
Certifications can definitely help. I have known many employers that
treat various certifications the same as degrees -- some value
certifications even more because of the specialized training involved.
In effect, they are similar: Both serve as a form of proof that you
have met certain requirements -- a basic building block of creating a
reputation. Having an MCSE certification could be a very valuable
addition to your arsenal, and you may learn a lot of good skills in
the process of getting one.
http://www.microsoft.com/learning/mcp/default.mspx
> Thanks again guys!
>
> Mario
>
> "drmario" <drma...@cox.net> wrote in message
John
>I have so much to offer, and I make such an excellent employee,
>that (with all due modesty) overlooking me is any company's mistake of the
>year.
<snip>
> While I welcome any opinion with
>open arms, if you're going to say "get your degree first" you're wasting
>your breath. I WILL find a job in software engineering, NOW. I don't care
>how. I'm an excellent employee and somehow I will find a job in the field.
Make sure that in your cover letters that you send with your resume,
you point out that what you lack in education and experience, you make
up for in ego.
Reply-to address is real
John
drmario
well to that exact wording. They do, however, love confidence and charisma.
Fortunately for me between the aforementioned two qualities and "ego" there
is an entire world of difference!
Happy Trails ^^
Mario
"John" <fakea...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:5i88u3d70g7ej7fo9...@4ax.com...
John
>Hhhmmm not sure about that one John, I don't think employers would take too
>well to that exact wording. They do, however, love confidence and charisma.
>Fortunately for me between the aforementioned two qualities and "ego" there
>is an entire world of difference!
>
>Happy Trails ^^
>Mario
Speaking as one who has read hundreds of resumes and conducted dozens
of interviews over the years, I can tell you that I place zero value
on charisma, and value confidence only to the degree that it's backed
by knowlege and achievement.
But I'm sure you know more than me, so feel free to disregard my silly
opinion.
Good luck.
Phlip
> Every time I read a C/C++ developer job descrtiption I am missing only two
> of the "successful candidate will posess" lines.
C++ will bite you on the ass for a simple reason: Employers never met anyone
with less than a couple years experience in it who didn't produce several
very serious, sneaky, devious bugs per line of code. C++ is a rough ride,
and the majority of programming should use a softer language, such as Lua,
Python, Ruby, or Smalltalk. Only projects which actually need speed and a
small footprint should use C++. Learn all kinds of programming, not just the
hard kinds.
Some of those open source projects qualify, which is why that suggestion is
very good. Another excellent suggestion - one that I have found works
absolutely everywhere - is to learn to write automated unit tests. The ratio
of all tests to all code, everywhere, should be greater than 2:1. The
industry has some catching up to do, and if you are there to help, then
anyone who is worth working for will snap you up.
Your professors have doubtless told you how important unit testing is!
> Do ya'll think an MCSE certification will help?
Only to get you in with the kinds of projects not worth working on. Personal
experience there!
--
Phlip
drmario
"Phlip" <phli...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:47e4782f$0$30721$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
> C++ will bite you on the ass for a simple reason: Employers never met
> anyone with less than a couple years experience in it who didn't produce
> several very serious, sneaky, devious bugs per line of code.
So where do the guys who know their stuff, and can manhandle C++, get their
experience?
> C++ is a rough ride, and the majority of programming should use a softer
> language, such as Lua, Python, Ruby, or Smalltalk. Only projects which
> actually need speed and a small footprint should use C++. Learn all kinds
> of programming, not just the hard kinds.
Ggrrrrr :-( The reason I always stuck with C++ was I love it, more than any
other language. Between, C, C++, and assmebly there is nothing I can't do
to a computer. I don't mind the other languages, I just have more fun with
C++. But you think learning Java, C#, or VB.net might be a good idea? I'll
have a look into Python and those other ones you mentioned as well.
" Some of those open source projects qualify"
Which ones? I'm sorry you lost me on that... qualify for what, being worth
doing?
> which is why that suggestion is very good. Another excellent suggestion -
> one that I have found works absolutely everywhere - is to learn to write
> automated unit tests. The ratio of all tests to all code, everywhere,
> should be greater than 2:1. The industry has some catching up to do, and
> if you are there to help, then anyone who is worth working for will snap
> you up.
> Your professors have doubtless told you how important unit testing is!
I think I may have skipped the classes on unit testing heh. I'll take your
word for this, though, and go check it out.
Thanks
Eagle
> So where do the guys who know their stuff, and can manhandle C++, get their
> experience?
We learn by doing, making the mistakes, and learning not to do them again.
Other languages offer alternatives, but C++ and C have done well for me.
I started by offering my skills for free to a local company. They
employed me very quickly.
My advice is to continue the degree and always learn more. Then use
that drive and find an employer that you have something to offer and
provide it. Many college programs require real volunteer work.
Oen Source may work for some employers. Just tke the time to show
them you have skills to offer and see what they say. Either way
you learn.
Best of luck,
David
Phlip
> So where do the guys who know their stuff, and can manhandle C++, get their
> experience?
Open source C++ projects...
> Ggrrrrr :-( The reason I always stuck with C++ was I love it, more than any
> other language. Between, C, C++, and assmebly there is nothing I can't do
> to a computer. I don't mind the other languages, I just have more fun with
> C++. But you think learning Java, C#, or VB.net might be a good idea?
No - they suck because they are _worse_ than C++. Not better.
> I'll
> have a look into Python and those other ones you mentioned as well.
That's why I mentioned them - they are "soft" languages.
When you say there's nothing you can't do to a computer with C++, you mean "I
want that bit to go into that register at that time". That's good to know, but
it's only half the story.
If I have a given problem, I want to make an API that uses a Domain Specific
Language, to make the solution as generic as possible. That's where the soft
languages shine.
> " Some of those open source projects qualify"
> Which ones? I'm sorry you lost me on that... qualify for what, being worth
> doing?
Yes - qualify as an answer to your question.
--
Phlip
jason.c...@gmail.com
Ggrrrrr :-( The reason I always stuck with <language1> was I love it,
more than any other language. Between, <language2>, <language1>, and
<language3> there is nothing I can't do to a computer. I don't mind
the other languages, I just have more fun with <language1>. But you
think learning <language4>, <language5>, or <language6> might be a
good idea?
On Mar 24, 3:17 pm, Phlip <phlip2...@gmail.com> wrote [edited]:
> No - they suck because they are _worse_ than <language1>. Not better.
Just a reminder before you get going, language-specific issues are not
on topic in comp.software-eng.
Jason
jason.c...@gmail.com
respond to this part, I think:
On Mar 23, 9:47 pm, "drmario" <drma...@cox.net> wrote:
> > C++ is a rough ride, and the majority of programming should use a softer
> > language, such as Lua, Python, Ruby, or Smalltalk. Only projects which
> > actually need speed and a small footprint should use C++. Learn all kinds
> > of programming, not just the hard kinds.
>
> Ggrrrrr :-( The reason I always stuck with C++ was I love it, more than any
> other language. Between, C, C++, and assmebly there is nothing I can't do
> to a computer. I don't mind the other languages, I just have more fun with
> C++. But you think learning Java, C#, or VB.net might be a good idea? I'll
> have a look into Python and those other ones you mentioned as well.
Personally, I find value in learning many different languages for
many, many reasons, not the least of which are:
- Knowing different languages helps you think in different ways than
you are used to. Everything you learn will make you a better software
engineer. For me, for example, I remember when I first dug in to
functional programming (in my case, it started as a course in SML in
college -- the course itself was on recursion and mathematical
analysis, SML just happened to be a good language to work with) -- it
made me think of problems in ways that I had never really considered
before. I have since used that knowledge to take better approaches to
problems, regardless of what language I am programming in.
- The wider your skill set, the more versatile you can be, which can
make you very valuable in many situations.
- Different tools are more appropriate for different jobs. Sometimes,
for example, you may be faced with a problem that is easily solvable
in language B, but not in language A. If you are only familiar with
language A, you end up spending a lot of time trying to hammer in the
proverbial screw. Also knowing language B gives you the tools you need
to get the job done effectively and efficiently.
I would recommend that you both concentrate on what you like, since it
is fun and it is easier to advance in fields that you enjoy, but I
also recommend sometimes taking a moment to take the extra effort to
learn a little about something new or something that you do not like.
Hit up wikipedia, it's good for that -- or the newsgroups and forums
for the languages you are interested in.
For me, I have found that one of my most valuable learning tools is
replying to people's posts on forums and newsgroups. The reason I find
this so valuable is if somebody asks a question that I do not know the
answer to, it gives me an excuse to go research something and learn
about it. Once I figure it out, I've found that answering their
question is a great way to "solidify" that learning experience.
Phlip
>> No - they suck because they are _worse_ than <language1>. Not better.
>
> Just a reminder before you get going, language-specific issues are not
> on topic in comp.software-eng.
The best advice for topicality, on USENET, is "you will get the best
technical answer for a technical question about Foo in Foo's newsgroup".
That's not the same thing as "I win because you are not allowed to
discuss Foo here". We are.
(-:
--
Phlip
drmario
child working out of a Phonix(or however the hell it was spelled) workbook
in a second grade classroom again heh. It's' good to be reminded of how
much you have yet to learn.
I understood what you meant about showing you a different way to approach a
problem. Way back when I had just graduated high school I had to take a
class that was taught in Scheme. Dear lord do I still to this day detest
that language. But like you said it made me see possible solutions to
common problems in different lights.
Thanks for the input bud :-)
<jason.c...@gmail.com> wrote
Z.K.
I feel for you really! I do have a BS degree in Computer Science, but I
still can not seem to get a job as most developer positions that I get
contacted about require some amount of Software Test Experience which I
don't have aside from what I do in my job as a Test Engineer. I
probably could get a job as a test engineer, but I would really like to
move into the software field. I am getting laid off at the end of the
year due to outsourcing and the prospect of finding a job right away is
not too promising without that software test experience so I am planning
to try and get a software test contract position for 3-6 months so I can
have the experience. You might consider a contract position in some of
the areas that you don't have any experience in. Also, maybe take a
course at a nearby college and it does not really have to be a full
degree, maybe just a three course certificate.
Z.K.
Phlip
> I feel for you really! I do have a BS degree in Computer Science, but I
> still can not seem to get a job as most developer positions that I get
> contacted about require some amount of Software Test Experience which I
> don't have aside from what I do in my job as a Test Engineer. I
> probably could get a job as a test engineer, but I would really like to
> move into the software field. I am getting laid off at the end of the
> year due to outsourcing...
Merry Christmas (regardless of your persuasion)!
Both of you look up "Test Driven Development". It makes onsite developers more
valuable than remote ones.
But good luck finding it at a nearby college. Give them another decade!
--
Phlip