Starting with Fischertechnik ???
Didier.pieroux
I am a total newbie in what concerns robotics stuff but... I want to change that
:-)
I started reading this newsgroup two or three weeks ago in search of a good
starting point. From previous post, I learned that an 'easy' solution is the
LEGO mindstorms products. However, I've got the impression that another easy
solution (and apparently more powerful, in term of computing power) is the
Fischertechnik robot product line.
So, my questions are: Why is it that Fischertechnik products are almost never
cited in this newsgroup (only 5 hits with Google) relatively to Lego (131 hits)
? Is there a _technical_ reason that makes Fischertechnic a bad idea for a
smooth start in building robots ?
Thanks a lot,
Didier
FixitSan
same bus-stop. Reasons for fewer hits? Well I would think its mostly down to
who has better marketting. Almost every electronic shop I go into have large
'Lego' posters but none have the Fischer ones even though they sell that too
!!!
Why not take your time in finding out, its not good to rush these things, and
in the meantime, visit this site where there is a great beginners robot made
from an old floppy disk drive...excellent
And remember....ask and ye shall learn !
http://www.generation5.org/aisolutions/rob_index.shtml
Gordon McComb
> So, my questions are: Why is it that Fischertechnik products are almost never
> cited in this newsgroup (only 5 hits with Google) relatively to Lego (131 hits)
> ? Is there a _technical_ reason that makes Fischertechnic a bad idea for a
> smooth start in building robots ?
Fischertechnic is poorly marketed in the US, which is where many (though
certainly not all) of the participants of this group are from. Here in
the United States their line is carried by just a hand-ful of specialty
retailers, usually at full list price, and virtually all by mail order
only, so fewer people have experience with it.
-- Gordon
Robot Builder's Bonanza, Second Edition
http://www.robotoid.com/
Chris Benndorf
> Didier.pieroux wrote:
> > So, my questions are: Why is it that Fischertechnik products are
> > almost never cited in this newsgroup (only 5 hits with Google)
> > relatively to Lego (131 hits)
> > ? Is there a _technical_ reason that makes Fischertechnic a bad
> > idea for a smooth start in building robots ?
>
> Fischertechnic is poorly marketed in the US, which is where many
> (though certainly not all) of the participants of this group are
> from. Here in the United States their line is carried by just a
> hand-ful of specialty retailers, usually at full list price, and
> virtually all by mail order only, so fewer people have experience
> with it.
>
Even in Germany Fischertechnik (with a K at the end ;-) has the same
poor marketing. No wonder since their main business are Fischer
dowels and the Fischertechnik things seem to be kind of a hobby. So
they do not need to have a so agressive marketing like L*go.
Chris
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Andrew Chiou
I am probably one of the few lucky ones who has the full
collection of Fischertechnik and Lego Mindstorm kits. I have been
playing with them for awhile. My comments:
Fisher kits:
----------------
These are not really 'toys' in the strictest sense of the word. The
reason you don't see them in ToysRus or your Tandy stores is that
these are not usually marketed as toys. In Germany and many heavy
industries, these are used as prototyping tools used by engineers. The
kits you build with fischer parts can almost (empahsisi almost) be the
end products themselves. There are about four kits that you would
like to get (including a pneumatic one) and one/two interfaces. Total
cost US$650.
I get my fishcer kits from the following site (Australia):
http://www1.tpgi.com.au/users/p8king/
For: Professional kit. Closest thing you get to the building your own
robotic system from scratch. ALthough pricing is comparable to the
Mindstorm kits, I find that most of the pieces are more useful. Eg. In
Mindstorm, you have to use about 5-6 pieces/gears to get a gearbox, in
the Fischer kit the gear box is ready assembled adn count as 1 piece.
All the pieces in a fischer kit is functional, unlike in the LEgo kits
1/3 of them is just for cosmetics. For example, one of the fishcer
kits I have (Profi or Industry) alone has 4 motors and 8 sensors.
You get a 2 year warranty on non-eletrical parts and 6 months on
electircal parts. You do not get warranties on toys!! hence, this is
another indication the fischer kit is not a toy in the strictect
sense. Very flexible. You program the robot via an interface (a
full-blown PCB with 4 motor output, 8 digital inputs and 2 analog
inputs, - can be doubled with a second interface), using standard
QBasic, VB, Delphi, C++ etc. as long as you know how to interface to
the outside world. You also get their industry-level software
controller kit. The kits are very robust - same stuff as Lego ABS
plastic. You can use external electronic parts with fishcer technic
ones (although as normal, the manufacturer doesn't approve of it).
Spare parts are (supririsngly) not very expensive.
Against: For itermediate and advcance users. You do need to know
what you are doing. The kits are controlled via an interface (bought
separately or bundled). Unlike the Lego PlugnPlay, you need to do a
fair bit of setting up in terms of software/hardware. The kits are
not too much fun to look at - they really do look like industry
robots. And you don't actually impress and pick dates with these
things :) They are all in black and red pices (with the very rare
blue or yellow parts). In terms of add-ons or new kits, fishcer seems
to come up with one everyon blue moon in comparison with Lego with
comes up with a new model about every three months.
Mindstorms
-----------------
Complete cost of entire range (app US$700).
For: Appeals to general starters. Very fun! To play with. You can get
you first robot running in 1 or two hours. Eg. The AT-AT Star Wars
walker is very impressive (but I am still working on how to stick the
RCX into it). THey also come with the Vision COmmand set, which
Fisher kits do not have. You can get spare parts from almost anyway
you can get the Techic sets. Support is incredible - on the web and
the 8 books writtne on it currently. If you want to start - this is
it. I think Lego is working on more and more models.
Against: Limited. Once you have tried all the models, that's about it.
ALthough you can create more models (look up lego WWW), the limitation
of the RCX with 3 motors/ three sensors etc. don't really allow you
to extend your inventions much. Although you could XOR the motors, but
this is a bit beyond your scope. You do need to get spare partss for
some of your ideas. ALthough, you can hack these kits with the Lego
SDK (eg. SPirit.OCX etc), you do need to know a fair bit about
programming/hardware in the first place. Also, I realised that, 1/3
of the bits and pieces that come with a Mindstorm kit or expansion kit
are for cosmetics only. THey don't really serve a purpose. You can get
these bits from your children's set. The other thing about Mindstorm
kits is that, I always need to hunt down a specific piece I need to
complete a model. The worst thing isthat, even whne I do get that
piece, I need to buy the whole box! Yes, I have look up Dacta's
RoboLab and I think they are a bit expensive.
Mindstorm vs Fischertechnik
-------------------------------------------
After spending about the same amount of money (about Aus$1,500 on
each brand) on compelete range of Mindstorm and dischertechnik kits, I
must say, the fishcertechnik ones beat the mindstorm hands down.
Here's what I got: The picese from all four fischer kits (about 2,000
piceces, app. 10 motors (each with own gear boxes), penumatics parts,
15 touch sensors, 4 light sensors, two pairs or grippers) . In the
lego kit, I only end up with aabout half the number of motors,
sensors and 1/3 of parts I can't use. Even that, I need to have two
RCX to control all of them.
On the other hand, the support/info on Lego leaves the fischertechnik
ones far behind. I get new info almost every week. The lego kits are
realyy really fun to build and play with. In fact, i normally show off
the lego kits than the fishcer ones.
Conclusion
----------------
For starters: go for the mindstorm ones. For a bit intermediate and
more professional models, the fishcer kits one is the way to go.
EIther way, you won't go wrong with either brand. Not much help here
eh? :) I would probably go out and buy a kit from each brand and see
how it goes.
Disclaimer: These are only my own opinion and in no way my comments or
remarks on the brands mentioned here indicate or represent their
actual value or usage to other individuals intended or otherwise.
Cheers!
Andrew
Didier.pieroux
So, I know now that FT fewer hits comes from no (or a poor) marketing, but not
from the product quality.
With my best regards,
Didier
PS: and yes, next time one of my HD crashes, I give it a second life as a mobile
robot ;-)
b7478...@gmail.com
FisherTechnik's robotic products are of the lowest quality in terms of ease of handling. it is very difficult to find help on the internet, explanations are not clear and often not in English. the kit costs are expensive but not efficient. there are other alternatives on the market, less expensive and much easier to handle. I am a teacher and my students have had a lot of trouble with the RoboPro software which is also complicated. Numbers of functions are in German. I do not recommend this product for those who are taking their first step into the world of robotics.