CMYK vs Spot vs paths vs bitmaps
AV
I am doing this layout for a cover of an antique book, see. The letters
are bitmap images of the original lettering - it is a reproduction of an
1830 original, the letters are faded and damaged. (I've spent over 80
hours painstakingly, and painfully, coloring in all the letters.) While
the original cover was just lettering, on brown paper, I wish to
embellish it slightly with a color image, and since my printer overseas
cannot supply any colored stock, I must apply the "color paper" as
background. The color image is not simply a rectangle of image. It is a
cartoon character, that is made up of little, discontiguous shapes, i.e.
they don't connect. So, it is made up of LOTS of paths. (Again,
painstakingly, painfully made, but at least I learned more about paths
in the process.)
So, the question is what to use for the color background: a cmyk or a
spot.
The background color will be a light blue so a spot color would probably
be best (please refer to "Let's Talk About Blue" thread). But if I do
this, HOW? I have odd little CMYK shapes from paths. I have bitmapped
black lettering. I know I can have the black lettering overprint against
a light blue with no problem. But the pathed shapes? How do I get them
to knock out? How do I get them to be trapped/choked by the spot? The
last time I did something like this, I just specified the background as
a CMYK value. I don't know how to do this for an extra spot!
a 'knocked out from the true path' v
Michael S. Dodds
> From: AV <a...@sover.net>
> Organization: WebUseNet Corp. - "ReInventing The UseNet"
> Newsgroups: comp.publish.prepress
> Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 05:36:34 -0500
> Subject: CMYK vs Spot vs paths vs bitmaps
--
You didn't say which application you are using.
But - if you have done this before,
just do it again and tell the backbround color to be
a spot color instead of a build.
If the shapes knocked out before - they will knock out again.
The spot will be trapped in the RIP - no problem.
--- There is really no need to use a spot color
unless you can't get it from a build.
You would/should need to add to the budget
for a 5th color.
Go into the "edit colors" or window > "view colors"
and build your color but check the box SPOT.
MSD
AV
> --
> You didn't say which application you are using.
pagemaker.
> But - if you have done this before,
> just do it again and tell the backbround color to be
> a spot color instead of a build.
> If the shapes knocked out before - they will knock out again.
why would they?
i don't understand how c and m and y and k would necessarily knock out a
spot.
> The spot will be trapped in the RIP - no problem.
how?
> --- There is really no need to use a spot color
> unless you can't get it from a build.
ah. you didn't refer to the "Let's talk about blue..." thread. :o)
> You would/should need to add to the budget
> for a 5th color.
duh.
> Go into the "edit colors" or window > "view colors"
> and build your color but check the box SPOT.
i know how to do that.
again, all i'm wondering is how to have a cmyk image knock out a spot
color. i don't see that it is possible as i've never seen any reference
to it. unless having them as paths makes this happen ipso facto.
a '?' v
Neil Gould
AV <a...@sover.net> wrote:
> Michael S. Dodds wrote:
> > But - if you have done this before,
> > just do it again and tell the backbround color to be
> > a spot color instead of a build.
> > If the shapes knocked out before - they will knock out again.
>
> why would they?
> i don't understand how c and m and y and k would necessarily knock out
a
> spot.
>
That's the wonder of using digital applications, AV. They don't care
what color the plate is that is showing knock outs.
When you place one object on another, the application has to know the
space the object will occupy. It's then a simple mathematical operation
to <OR> out the background.
My only concern with your approach would be whether the objects will be
adequately trapped. It seems that you are depending a lot on clipping
paths to do some critical work, and unless the paths are all well within
a solid color, you may wind up with shoddy edges. I'd probably take a
sledgehammer approach to this by exporting the pieces to Illustrator and
building the layout there, where I can manually set the trapping. Then
place it as a 5-color EPS in Pagemaker.
Regards,
--
Neil Gould
----------------------------------------------------------------
Terra Tu AV http://www.terratu.com
Technical Graphics & Media
Lee Blevins
> The background color will be a light blue so a spot color would probably
> be best (please refer to "Let's Talk About Blue" thread). But if I do
> this, HOW? I have odd little CMYK shapes from paths. I have bitmapped
> black lettering. I know I can have the black lettering overprint against
> a light blue with no problem. But the pathed shapes? How do I get them
> to knock out? How do I get them to be trapped/choked by the spot? The
> last time I did something like this, I just specified the background as
> a CMYK value. I don't know how to do this for an extra spot!
This doesn't seem like a complicated problem.
1) Uncheck "overprint" on all the shapes (paths) in illustrator.
2) The solid black (I'm assuming) letters should overprint on any
modern trapping rip. Question is, do you want them to? Do they also
overlap the cartoon? In that case overprinting them could be a
problem.
My own preference is to make large black shapes a rich black then trap
the background to them. You'd need to know how the printer is going to
handle the ink rotation to make an accurate analysis of how to do this.
My worst fear is they'd run the pms last and have it print over the
black letters. If they run it first and the pms has tint base or opaque
white,overprinting anything larger than body copy could be problematic.
You should query the output vendor on what type of rip/trapping system
they use so you can get a better understanding of how it will trap.
If their answer is fuzzy then do what many people do. Print in the
orient because it's cheaper but have the digital file made by someone
local.
Then give time something already trapped and with overprints set.
Since the color is a light blue, I'd vote for the PMS instead of a
process mix. Light blue would end up being mostly a screen of cyan.
Using large background areas of a single (or mostly single) color tint
are problems to print and keep smooth. The pms would be much smoother.
However, in the pms case you need to watch for ghosting with that
cartoon knocking out. I'd hope this offshore printer has an oscilating
form roller on that pms to eliminate ghosting.
At any rate I'd caution them to evaluate the design and guarantee that
there will be no problem with ghosting.
av
> Hi,
>
> AV <a...@sover.net> wrote:
> > Michael S. Dodds wrote:
> > > But - if you have done this before,
> > > just do it again and tell the backbround color to be
> > > a spot color instead of a build.
> > > If the shapes knocked out before - they will knock out again.
> >
> > why would they?
> > i don't understand how c and m and y and k would necessarily knock out
> a
> > spot.
> >
> That's the wonder of using digital applications, AV. They don't care
> what color the plate is that is showing knock outs.
>
> When you place one object on another, the application has to know the
> space the object will occupy. It's then a simple mathematical operation
> to <OR> out the background.
>
But I thought knocking out is "plate by plate" meaning the C could
knock out, the M could knock out, the Y could knock out, and the K
would knock out.
If that's true, then what about the W? Meaning the "white"? While this
cartoon is fairly solid color, it *is* an antique watercolor image,
and as such has some white in it. Wouldn't those areas let in the
background PMS?
For that matter, there *is* space between CMYK dots and I would figure
the PMS would just show through anywhere there is space. No?
> My only concern with your approach would be whether the objects will be
> adequately trapped. It seems that you are depending a lot on clipping
> paths to do some critical work, and unless the paths are all well within
> a solid color, you may wind up with shoddy edges. I'd probably take a
> sledgehammer approach to this by exporting the pieces to Illustrator and
> building the layout there, where I can manually set the trapping. Then
> place it as a 5-color EPS in Pagemaker.
Well, for one thing I don't have Illustrator. Though if the job
requires it I'll buy the damn thing. I have little use for vector
programs and as such, just have Freehand 7. (Ducking for cover.) Would
that do?
But for as for the clipping path, for what it's worth, I first made a
crude work path from a selection made around all the parts. (They are
against a white background. Magic wanded the white. Inversed
selection. etc.) THEN I spent HOURS and HOURS moving the paths around
so that they would be within the edges of the image. I know that
doesn't mean trapped, but it at least means that there are no white
edges in the paths.
av
av
sez who?
> 1) Uncheck "overprint" on all the shapes (paths) in illustrator.
Freehand 7 ok?
> 2) The solid black (I'm assuming) letters should overprint on any
> modern trapping rip. Question is, do you want them to? Do they also
> overlap the cartoon? In that case overprinting them could be a
> problem.
I don't care about black overprinting. The PMS I'm choosing is 2975.
Fairly light.
No the letters do not overlap the cartoon.
> My own preference is to make large black shapes a rich black then trap
> the background to them. You'd need to know how the printer is going to
> handle the ink rotation to make an accurate analysis of how to do this.
right
> My worst fear is they'd run the pms last and have it print over the
> black letters. If they run it first and the pms has tint base or opaque
> white,overprinting anything larger than body copy could be problematic.
right my fear too. although i would be telling them to print the pms
first. anyone know how to say that in Thai? :o)
PMS 2975 consists of:
3 5/8 pts Pantone Pro Blue 5.7
3/8 pts Pantone Ref. Blue .6
60 pts Pantone Trans. Wht 93.7
> You should query the output vendor on what type of rip/trapping system
> they use so you can get a better understanding of how it will trap.
I can barely query this printer for a quote!
But I agree.
> If their answer is fuzzy then do what many people do. Print in the
> orient because it's cheaper but have the digital file made by someone
> local.
ALL their answers are fuzzy. I believe they invented the term "fuzzy
logic".
> Then give time something already trapped and with overprints set.
This I'm a little hesitant of. For one thing, they use positive film
there. Altho, that's probably not such a big deal, I have enough
trouble trying to explain my very peculiar work to them. If giving
them film that is different in any way (density, whatever) that they
are used to, I think that might be causing more problems than it is
solving.
> Since the color is a light blue, I'd vote for the PMS instead of a
> process mix. Light blue would end up being mostly a screen of cyan.
> Using large background areas of a single (or mostly single) color tint
> are problems to print and keep smooth. The pms would be much smoother.
I agree.
> However, in the pms case you need to watch for ghosting with that
> cartoon knocking out. I'd hope this offshore printer has an oscilating
> form roller on that pms to eliminate ghosting.
Oh, cuz of the dark being printed near a light?
That might be the *least* of the problems. But I hear you.
Mister American Printer, how you say "oscillating form roller" in
Thai?
> At any rate I'd caution them to evaluate the design and guarantee that
> there will be no problem with ghosting.
ok.
thnx
av
Neil Gould
av <a...@sover.net> wrote:
> "Neil Gould" <ne...@terratu.com> wrote:
> > That's the wonder of using digital applications, AV. They don't care
> > what color the plate is that is showing knock outs.
> >
> > When you place one object on another, the application has to know
the
> > space the object will occupy. It's then a simple mathematical
operation
> > to <OR> out the background.
> >
>
> But I thought knocking out is "plate by plate" meaning the C could
> knock out, the M could knock out, the Y could knock out, and the K
> would knock out.
>
Knocking out / overprint can be set in a number of ways. However, I
presume that your cartoon is a Photoshop EPS? In this case, the objects
are likely to be treated as opaque by most layout applications, so
trapping will occur on the clipping path (as long as you don't set
"overprint fill" on the objects, which I don't recall whether Pagemaker
supports anyway).
> If that's true, then what about the W? Meaning the "white"? While this
> cartoon is fairly solid color, it *is* an antique watercolor image,
> and as such has some white in it. Wouldn't those areas let in the
> background PMS?
> For that matter, there *is* space between CMYK dots and I would figure
> the PMS would just show through anywhere there is space. No?
>
Not unless the clipping path allows it, or you are overprinting the
image, which I wouldn't recommend.
> Well, for one thing I don't have Illustrator. Though if the job
> requires it I'll buy the damn thing. I have little use for vector
> programs and as such, just have Freehand 7. (Ducking for cover.) Would
> that do?
>
Probably, if you are very good at getting "legitimate" EPS out of it.
I've experienced some really quirky FH EPS files. But, that isn't to
suggest that it can't be done.
> But for as for the clipping path, for what it's worth, I first made a
> crude work path from a selection made around all the parts. (They are
> against a white background. Magic wanded the white. Inversed
> selection. etc.) THEN I spent HOURS and HOURS moving the paths around
> so that they would be within the edges of the image. I know that
> doesn't mean trapped, but it at least means that there are no white
> edges in the paths.
>
Which may or may not be good enough. You suggested that some of the
images were faded, which may result in nearly-white edges. I probably
would have filled the background with a CMYK color close to the PMS
color that you will be using, instead of white.
AV
snip
> Which may or may not be good enough. You suggested that some of the
> images were faded, which may result in nearly-white edges. I probably
> would have filled the background with a CMYK color close to the PMS
> color that you will be using, instead of white.
>
hmmmm....
maybe. interesting thought that last one. i suppose I could select out
any white with a low tolerance wand and fill it in as you suggest. not a
bad idea. but i don't really want to hurt the color of the figure. i am
trying to be true as possible to the original.
the image doesn't really have white edges so much as it is all around
rather lightish. i guess you'd have to see it. imagine a hand-colored
childrens book and then add 170 years of it waiting for me to appear.
and no, it is NOT a photoshop eps. it is presently a TIF file with a
clipping path. what would be the difference/benefit of an eps at this
point? are the path's read any differently in layout?
i guess i have to admit low level experience with clip paths still.
what exactly do you mean by a clipping path "allowing" or not allowing a
PMS to blend through where there is white in the image. Does placing a
clipping path essentially turn anything within it into a vector object?
Even if it is built up from 4 different cmyk plates?
av
Michael S. Dodds
>> Which may or may not be good enough. You suggested that some of the
>> images were faded, which may result in nearly-white edges. I probably
>> would have filled the background with a CMYK color close to the PMS
>> color that you will be using, instead of white.
>>
>
> hmmmm....
>
> maybe. interesting thought that last one. i suppose I could select out
> any white with a low tolerance wand and fill it in as you suggest. not a
> bad idea. but i don't really want to hurt the color of the figure. i am
> trying to be true as possible to the original.
--
I feel you want to see the background color
through the "empty" parts of the illustration.
Since you are spending time anyway -
why not go into the tiff and make all the
"background" parts transparent?
That way, you can place the image on ANY background -
and it will just float there.
( unless you want the white box background)
-- This would be a better archival file -
since you could use it for any purpose, being transparent.
MSD
Iwas going to say something about being ready to supply POSITIVE film.
Are you sending files - or film? E-up or E-down?
Who is making the proofs? Euro color or US color?
Bob Frederick
> > black letters. If they run it first and the pms has tint base or opaque
> > white,overprinting anything larger than body copy could be problematic.
>
> right my fear too. although i would be telling them to print the pms
> first. anyone know how to say that in Thai? :o)
>
> PMS 2975 consists of:
> 3 5/8 pts Pantone Pro Blue 5.7
> 3/8 pts Pantone Ref. Blue .6
> 60 pts Pantone Trans. Wht 93.7
This is a common misconception that I see quite often. Most people would
assume that when you run a solid pms color with black overprint type, you
should run the pms first. Wrong! If you are wet trapping the inks (in other
words running all the colors in one pass) you should almost always run the
pms last. Reason is when the black goes down over the pms it will not trap
(ink trap not mechanical trap) properly, this often results in gray mottled
fuzzy edged look. If you run the black first it prints as it should, black
and sharp, when the pms goes over the top it has no effect because the ink
is TRANSPARENT. Why do you think printers run KCMY sequence? The only
exception is when the pms contains opaque inks such as metallics, some
flourescents or opaque white. In this case you should dry trap (run the pms
first by itself, let dry and then overprint the black).
Another reason not to run a solid pms first is backtrapping (the wet ink
hits 4 more blankets before the delivery), this can result in an uneven
mottled look.
Please test this for yourself, I have had to demonstrate this on press to
skeptical clients more than once.
Good Luck with the book cover, Bob Frederick
Michael S. Dodds
> From: Bob Frederick <la...@attbiNOSPAM.com>
> Newsgroups: comp.publish.prepress
> Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 02:51:16 GMT
> Subject: Re: CMYK vs Spot vs paths vs bitmaps
>
> The only
> exception is when the pms contains opaque inks such as metallics, some
> flourescents or opaque white. In this case you should dry trap (run the pms
> first by itself, let dry and then overprint the black).
--
WOW - cool someone here knows about that.
A lot of times we will do what you say with the metallic inks,
BUT
we will double hit the black in line. This usually ends up with a nice solid
looking black. (or, of course, knock it out very tightly).
It becomes a strong consideration when running
half a million press impressions.
-- Then, the concern becomes offset with that much black
sitting on a metallic.
Fortunately - we have the option to Aqueous coat in line.
MSD
AV
> --
> I feel you want to see the background color
> through the "empty" parts of the illustration.
NO I don't. That only came up because I want to avoid any
blending/muddying of ink that might happen due to white areas in the
image itself. Making it denser was the idea. Which, as I think of it,
could/should be done without using any background color.
> Since you are spending time anyway -
> why not go into the tiff and make all the
> "background" parts transparent?
HOW without clipping paths?
HOW without being Bitmapped?
This isn't a GIF.
> Iwas going to say something about being ready to supply POSITIVE film.
> Are you sending files - or film? E-up or E-down?
> Who is making the proofs? Euro color or US color?
sending files.
e-something
they are
Thai color :o)
Sorry, I've never bothered to ask them. Haven't had the need (yet).
av
Neil Gould
AV <a...@sover.net> wrote:
> and no, it is NOT a photoshop eps. it is presently a TIF file with a
> clipping path. what would be the difference/benefit of an eps at this
> point? are the path's read any differently in layout?
>
I've had better luck with EPS when using clipping paths. There is
apparently more than one way to make TIF files w/clipping paths, some of
which are unsupported by some layout applications. That leaves you in a
trial-and-error scenario. OTOH, EPS files are more constrained in their
implementation, and are therefore more reliable if for no other reason
than most layout apps have a "hands-off" approach to EPS files in
general.
> what exactly do you mean by a clipping path "allowing" or not allowing
a
> PMS to blend through where there is white in the image.
>
You can have "holes" in your image by defining them as part of the
clipping path. Thus, the background will show through these holes. If
there are no holes, then the white areas will knock out the background
color as long as you aren't overprinting the fill color(s).
> Does placing a
> clipping path essentially turn anything within it into a vector
object?
> Even if it is built up from 4 different cmyk plates?
>
Hmm. That's one way to look at it, though it's a little more involved
than that.
Michael S. Dodds
I usually create a transparent background behind my image
then save it as a .eps file.
Those .eps files will work everywhere
and can be high resolution
--
-- selection tool - select image frame
-- move it 2 clicks any direction (bkg. is visible)
-- use whatever tool you like (I use magic wand)
-- select ALL the background areas
-- hit delete
-- deselect
-- selection tool - select image frame
-- move image back 2 clicks back to original position
-- select the strip along the edge you missed in earlier step
-- delete it
-- go to - Help > export transparent image
-- follow the wizard
you will end up with your original image
and
a new .eps image on a transparent background
(it is a "clipping path" - of sorts)
--
do with it as you please
MSD
av
snip
You know as I'm thinking about this more, and realizing that I am
probably not going to just PMS color the front/back but also the front
inside/back inside as well (the main purpose being to have it appear
as if it is light blue paper; the asian printers generally not
offering color paper) I'm thinking maybe it would just be best for me
to ask them to run paper through first covering it all solid with the
PMS 2975, front and back, let it dry, and then print the cover with
the black lettering and cmyk image. Then, it would really be no
different than if they printed on a light blue sheet, right?
a 'who always finds interesting ways to increase his costs' v
Bob Frederick
>
>
> snip
>
> You know as I'm thinking about this more, and realizing that I am
> probably not going to just PMS color the front/back but also the front
> inside/back inside as well (the main purpose being to have it appear
> as if it is light blue paper; the asian printers generally not
> offering color paper) I'm thinking maybe it would just be best for me
> to ask them to run paper through first covering it all solid with the
> PMS 2975, front and back, let it dry, and then print the cover with
> the black lettering and cmyk image. Then, it would really be no
> different than if they printed on a light blue sheet, right?
Right, however now you are back to the issue of the blue solid altering
your process color (whites will be blue, yellows will be green etc.).
This will be the same whether you tint the paper first or just run blue
paper.
Here's my advice FWIW:
1) Decide whether you need to run a 5th color or not. IMO pms 2975 is an
acceptable match out of process and you will save some money (which you
could use to upgrade the paper or add a varnish/aqueous coating).
2) Make the block letters a rich black (it's best to find out the max D
from the printer but if you have to guess I would go with 60c 50m 50y
100k for coated stock).
3) Build your background in Quark and leave the trapping to the printer
(use a quality printer with inhouse prepress and insist on seeing a
TRAPPED proof). This way if there's a trapping issue, it's on them to fix
it as long as you have communicated properly.
Best of luck, Bob
AV
>
> >
> >
> > snip
> >
> > You know as I'm thinking about this more, and realizing that I am
> > probably not going to just PMS color the front/back but also the front
> > inside/back inside as well (the main purpose being to have it appear
> > as if it is light blue paper; the asian printers generally not
> > offering color paper) I'm thinking maybe it would just be best for me
> > to ask them to run paper through first covering it all solid with the
> > PMS 2975, front and back, let it dry, and then print the cover with
> > the black lettering and cmyk image. Then, it would really be no
> > different than if they printed on a light blue sheet, right?
>
> Right, however now you are back to the issue of the blue solid altering
> your process color (whites will be blue, yellows will be green etc.).
> This will be the same whether you tint the paper first or just run blue
> paper.
>
> Here's my advice FWIW:
>
> 1) Decide whether you need to run a 5th color or not. IMO pms 2975 is an
> acceptable match out of process and you will save some money (which you
> could use to upgrade the paper or add a varnish/aqueous coating).
>
the reason i have been thinking towards a 5th color is precisely because
i hate all the cmyk blues.
i actually would like to *downgrade* paper, but don't have much choice
overseas. don't need any varnish either. this is an attempt at
reproduction of an 1830 original. poor paper and uncoated is the rule of
the day. :o)
> 2) Make the block letters a rich black (it's best to find out the max D
> from the printer but if you have to guess I would go with 60c 50m 50y
> 100k for coated stock).
ok
actually think i have that already with slightly higher numbers i think.
> 3) Build your background in Quark and leave the trapping to the printer
> (use a quality printer with inhouse prepress and insist on seeing a
> TRAPPED proof). This way if there's a trapping issue, it's on them to fix
> it as long as you have communicated properly.
>
ok
thnx
av