Use non-Epson cartridges and die!
Andrew Mayo
used Epson cartridges (in fact the first set, supplied with the
printer), it just failed after 6 weeks.
Now I have to say Epson were very good; they have set up a bunch of
accredited repair centres and if the printer can't be fixed in 30
minutes they'll give you a new one.
But when I dropped the printer in the first question was 'Have you
been using genuine Epson cartridges?'. Well, yes, I had. Hmmmm. Good
thing too, I supposed. If not, maybe my warranty was toast!. Geez,
better be careful about that!.
When I picked up the replacement I asked a bit more about using
Epson-compatible cartridges. Just out of curiosity. The response was
'You'll ruin your printhead. We get three or more printers in every
week where the printheads have been ruined by non-Epson cartridges'
'Really', I said innocently. 'Does that mean that the printer wouldn't
be covered under warranty?'.
The guy looked uncomfortable 'No, they'll replace the printer under
warranty'. The subject was clearly closed at that stage, so I didn't
pursue the issue.
Now, there are some interesting (conflicting) conclusions to be drawn
from this
1. ALL Non-Epson cartridges contain vile inferior ink which destroys
precision Epson printheads. Ok, if so, how come Epson honour their
warranty commitments?.
2. Epson are being a bit economical with the truth because they want
you to buy their more expensive cartridges. Hence they scare you into
sticking with their cartridges and train their repair agents to take a
tough line questioning people, then act all nice about it 'well, in
this case we'll make an exception, but don't do it again!'
3. SOME Non-Epson cartridges are junk. Well, then why are Epson not
warning retail outlets about these products. Why aren't the good
non-Epson cartridges able to say 'guaranteed compatible' or something
to ensure you can be confident they won't wreck your printer. I mean,
an independent lab could certify that your inks are compatible and
free of particulate contamination, for instance, right?.
The cartridges I had considered using are from OfficeWorld, who are a
very large and reputable chain. I plan to ask them about these
cartridges and see what their official response is.
Meanwhile, can anyone else here shed light on this rather peculiar
situation. Printer company sells printers, warns against third-party
cartridges but, strangely, fixes broken printers even when they are
damaged (allegedly) by said third-party cartridges.
I find this odd. If my Ford got filled with, say, contaminated crap
oil and then the engine failed under warranty, would Ford say 'oh,
well, you need to use genuine Ford oil, and this oil is junk.. but,
er, we'll repair it under warranty, and, er... if you do it again
we'll STILL repair it under warranty.'
Somehow I don't think so.
If I go into Halfords and I buy 5 litres of 30/40 oil, I'm quite
confident that Ford aren't gonna tell me that my warranty is toast
because I bought third party oil. (actually, legally I think they
can't do that, which may explain Epson's odd behaviour).
Now I know printer ink is (supposedly) much more high-tech.
Supposedly. I don't know how true that is. I'm guessing that reputable
third-party ink vendors take great care over their formulations and
ensure that they test them thoroughly and perform spectroscopic
analysis etc. After all, being sued by a bunch of furious users with
dead printers could be kinda expensive, right?.
At present I'm becoming quite convinced that the printer market badly
needs some kind of government regulation, in the same way that the car
parts market was regulated. This was to stop car manufacturers
stamping down on third-party parts vendors, but we're seeing some very
shady practices in the printer market.
I understand that companies are giving the damn printers away and
planning on making a killing from all the consumables they'll be
selling you, but to be honest, I don't think this is a sustainable
proposition. Apart from deliberately pricing replacement parts so
printers will be junked, rather than repaired (Canon), other vendors
have tried suing third-party suppliers under the DMCA (Lexmark).
Don Phillipson
news:2b20cd9f.04112...@posting.google.com...
> If I go into Halfords and I buy 5 litres of 30/40 oil, I'm quite
> confident that Ford aren't gonna tell me that my warranty is toast
> because I bought third party oil. (actually, legally I think they
> can't do that, which may explain Epson's odd behaviour).
>
> Now I know printer ink is (supposedly) much more high-tech.
But there are national and international specifications
for motor oil (and the container identifies whether the
contents meet those specifications) but not for printer cartridges
-- where doctrine and practice are left to manufacturers.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
B...@see-below-for-address.com
Actually, I have had exactly the opposite experience with both my C80s.
With both printers, I had to replace the original Epson cartridges with
generics. The Epsons continually clogged up. If I did not print for a
week, I had to do a cleaning cycle. Two years later, I have not had a clog
with either printer using generic inks, and I have gone a month without
printing and no clogs. My wife gave me a third C80 because it continually
clogged with Epson ink cartridges. It was out of warranty and could not be
salvaged. I tossed it.
--
r.s....@att.net
Tony
"Andrew Mayo" <ajm...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:2b20cd9f.04112...@posting.google.com...
> The guy looked uncomfortable 'No, they'll replace the printer under
> warranty'. The subject was clearly closed at that stage, so I didn't
pursue the issue.
http://www.jettec.co.uk/warranty.asp
This has been handled many times. Firstly ignore speculation from over eager
posters who are keen to chat without facts :-) Dependant in which country
you live, hopefully like the UK or USA, Epson are not allowed to deal in FUD
(fear, uncertainty and doubt) and it has been proven several times that the
law in the EU for instance is definately against them. They are not allowed
to determine which ink you use.
Secondly deal with a responsible third party manufacturer. JetTec for
instance make every single widget and ink carefully formulated to work - and
guaranteed.
Tony
--
Spit less spotlets - spotless inkjet prints...
http://www.aah-haa.com 30% more ink
Hecate
wrote:
And if you're lucky enough to get them you can the same guarantees and
better inks from Permajet.
--
Hecate - The Real One
Hec...@newsguy.com
veni, vidi, reliqui
Anti-imperialist
>
> Recently my brand-new Epson C86 failed to print yellow. Although I had
> used Epson cartridges (in fact the first set, supplied with the
> printer), it just failed after 6 weeks.
>
I just destroyed 2 different Epson printers (clogged the heads). I was
using 3rd party inks both times (Printpal). Seemed like I used Canon
with Printpal and no problems. I suspect that the PrintPal inks
destroyed the Epsons but I am not sure. I just said screw it and bought
a Laser printer.
--
Anti-imperialist
> it will not clog,
Excuse me, how am I not using my printer correctly? Clue me in. Also
tell me how "users clog their Epsons, not ink?"
Epson user now on my 3rd printer..
>
> Also use better grade OEM Ink Tanks, not just the cheapest, or the ones made
> in China
Ok.......I just bought a laser printer, hopefully this is all over with
for now.
--
http://www.pflp.net Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP)
http://www.farcep.org Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC)
http://www.revolutionleft.org
Heroes: George Habash, Nayef Hawatmeh, Naji Alloush, Kamal Nasser, Wadi
Haddad, Michel Aflaq, Camilo Torres.
Arthur Entlich
companies) group with rated ink as to the safety or minimum
specifications, as is the case with oil, Epson could state that the ink
must meet a standard and claim the ink was not up to the quality
required if it was not, and then refuse the warranty.
However, there is no such organization, and it would appear no one in
the industry wants such a group, because then there would be a standard
and you could know you were safe buying certain 3rd party inks.
The manufacturers, as you pointed out, make their money on consumables,
so they want to hold that market, even if it is by fear factor.
In most countries, there are acts which do not allow for "tie in" of
hard goods with consumables. In the US it is the Sherman Anti-Trust act,
which makes it illegal to require that consumable be purchased from a
specific source in order to either purchase a hard good, or to maintain
a warranty.
Sadly, some Epson owners do abuse this requirement by using badly
manufactured ink and messing up their printer. However, Epson is under
certain responsibilities during the warranty period unless they could
prove categorically that using a certain brand of ink did damage the
printer. This is difficult to prove and costly, and in the big picture
it is better to repair the printer under warranty, especially since
Epson would face many complaints about their permanent heads otherwise.
Some ink or bad refilling practices definitely could lead to head clogs,
but Epson likely knows what the costs of of trying to pursue such a
situation.
Art
Arthur Entlich
1) Keep the printer in a low dust situation. Clean any paper dust out
regularly
2) If you live in a very dry region, consider placing a few drops of
water in the cleaning station pad before shutting down.
3) Clean under the head using the technique explained in my Cleaning guide
4) Occasionally use cleaning cartridges to purge the nozzles and other
head parts
5) Do not allow the printer to sit without a cartridge installed for
more than a few minutes.
6) Try to print something a few times a week, if possible
7) Do not shut the printer down via a power bar, use the on off switch
on the printer
8) Make sure the head unit sets in place to the far right of the
printer, sealed by the cleaning station .
9) Keep the head wiper and the cleaning station clean so the heads will
get purged properly during start up and other cleaning processes.
Art
blac...@gmx.de
>Recently my brand-new Epson C86 failed to print yellow. Although I had
>used Epson cartridges (in fact the first set, supplied with the
>printer), it just failed after 6 weeks.
>
>When I picked up the replacement I asked a bit more about using
>Epson-compatible cartridges. Just out of curiosity. The response was
>'You'll ruin your printhead. We get three or more printers in every
>week where the printheads have been ruined by non-Epson cartridges'
I printed about 10 pages with my new Epson Stylus C82, before they
stops to print magenta. Are this the destroid printheads by the Epson
catridges? Think the compatible wold be more worse? I don't think it
realy.
After "repair" I get a new package and printed with epson-ink for 2
years without any problems, and now get again epson ink.
What I going to say is:
1. Epson seems to have problems on new printers with the printhead.
2. Compatible ink is not the one, what can destroy the pringhead, it
could happen with epson-ink.
3. Nobody can say, when you printer will fail ^^
B...@see-below-for-address.com
> There are some things you can do to lessen the risk of Epson head clogs.
>
> 1) Keep the printer in a low dust situation. Clean any paper dust out
> regularly
>
> 2) If you live in a very dry region, consider placing a few drops of
> water in the cleaning station pad before shutting down.
>
> 3) Clean under the head using the technique explained in my Cleaning guide
>
> 4) Occasionally use cleaning cartridges to purge the nozzles and other
> head parts
>
> 5) Do not allow the printer to sit without a cartridge installed for
> more than a few minutes.
>
> 6) Try to print something a few times a week, if possible
>
> 7) Do not shut the printer down via a power bar, use the on off switch
> on the printer
>
> 8) Make sure the head unit sets in place to the far right of the
> printer, sealed by the cleaning station .
>
> 9) Keep the head wiper and the cleaning station clean so the heads will
> get purged properly during start up and other cleaning processes.
>
> Art
>
Your advice is excellent. The point is, however, that such measures should
not be required to keep a printer working. My wife has been using two
Canon i550s for years. Aside from changing generic cartridges, she does
nothing. They just keep printing.
> Anti-imperialist wrote:
>
>> William Bell wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 22:15:22 -0800, Anti-imperialist <a...@anti-imperialist.net>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Andrew Mayo wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Recently my brand-new Epson C86 failed to print yellow. Although I had
>>>>>used Epson cartridges (in fact the first set, supplied with the
>>>>>printer), it just failed after 6 weeks.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>><snip>
>>>>
>>>>I just destroyed 2 different Epson printers (clogged the heads). I was
>>>>using 3rd party inks both times (Printpal). Seemed like I used Canon
>>>>with Printpal and no problems. I suspect that the PrintPal inks
>>>>destroyed the Epsons but I am not sure. I just said screw it and bought
>>>>a Laser printer.
>>>
>>>Its users that cause Epsons to clog, learn to use your printer correctly then
>>>it will not clog,
>>
>>
>> Excuse me, how am I not using my printer correctly? Clue me in. Also
>> tell me how "users clog their Epsons, not ink?"
>>
>> Epson user now on my 3rd printer..
>>
>>>Also use better grade OEM Ink Tanks, not just the cheapest, or the ones made
>>>in China
>>
>>
>> Ok.......I just bought a laser printer, hopefully this is all over with
>> for now.
notbob
> 4) Occasionally use cleaning cartridges to purge the nozzles and other
> head parts
Epson printers now allow cartridge removal? The only Epy I owned (800
color) would permanently kill any cartridge removed, not matter how new.
nb
Arthur Entlich
B...@see-below-for-address.com wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 12:45:41 GMT, Arthur Entlich wrote:
>
>
>>There are some things you can do to lessen the risk of Epson head clogs.
>>
>>1) Keep the printer in a low dust situation. Clean any paper dust out
>>regularly
>>
>>2) If you live in a very dry region, consider placing a few drops of
>>water in the cleaning station pad before shutting down.
>>
>>3) Clean under the head using the technique explained in my Cleaning guide
>>
>>4) Occasionally use cleaning cartridges to purge the nozzles and other
>>head parts
>>
>>5) Do not allow the printer to sit without a cartridge installed for
>>more than a few minutes.
>>
>>6) Try to print something a few times a week, if possible
>>
>>7) Do not shut the printer down via a power bar, use the on off switch
>>on the printer
>>
>>8) Make sure the head unit sets in place to the far right of the
>>printer, sealed by the cleaning station .
>>
>>9) Keep the head wiper and the cleaning station clean so the heads will
>>get purged properly during start up and other cleaning processes.
>>
>>Art
>>
>
>
> Your advice is excellent. The point is, however, that such measures should
> not be required to keep a printer working. My wife has been using two
> Canon i550s for years. Aside from changing generic cartridges, she does
> nothing. They just keep printing.
>
>
I am not trying to defend Epson, or any other company. Each have their
good and bad points. Recent Canon printers, with their newer designs,
have improved the reliability and quality of their printers.
I believe Canon still does not produces pigmented inks for their
printers. The pigmented inks Epson uses may be one of the causes of
less reliability and more clogs.
Some people have reported early head failures with Canon printers.
Art
Arthur Entlich
treatment. In part it is due to the pigmented inks in certain models.
In part it is due to the permanent heads. Before recently (last two
years perhaps) no other printer on the market offered the quality of
output Epson did, so that alone made the extra considerations worthwhile
to those demanding that type of quality.
Both HP and Canon have made great strides in quality output recently.
If it were not for Epson, I doubt either would be anywhere near where
they are today.
The piezo head technology is used by almost all professional inkjet
printer companies. It allows for many varied inks and a very long
lasting head with little if any loss of quality, should it be
maintained. That used to be a big plus in terms of cost per cartridge,
but the market forced Epson to follow a similar business model to other
companies.
The piezo head is being used to print on pills and to make OLED screens.
It doesn't get used up and requires no heating process.
Epson printers still produce beautiful results, albeit, usually slower
than the top speed models.
I do not believe any of the suggestions I made required dismantling of
the printer.
Art
Bill wrote:
> Arthur Entlich wrote:
>
>
>>There are some things you can do to lessen the risk of Epson head clogs.
>
>
> While I think several of your suggestions are good, for most users the
> others are not only more difficult, they're beyond what is reasonably
> expected of a consumer.
>
> Anything that requires disassembly or some mechanical knowledge is
> beyond expectations. A printer is supposed to print when you turn it on,
> plain and simple. If it needs new ink, you stick in new cartridges.
> Pretty much anything else is extraordinary requirements.
Arthur Entlich
printers of different vintages) is this is not the case. At worse, one
simply has to add a few drops of water to the ink outlet before
reinserting the cartridge.
Further, yes, since the chipped Intelledge cartridge was designed with a
spring loaded valve on each ink outlet, the cartridges and printers are
designed to allow for cartridge removal and reinstallation. In fact, it
was under this ploy that Epson introduced these newly featured
cartridges with the chip. Of course, the real reason for them was to
make the cartridges impossible to use again with a reprogrammer for the
chip.
Art
notbob
> Further, yes, since the chipped Intelledge cartridge was designed with a
> spring loaded valve on each ink outlet, the cartridges and printers are
> designed to allow for cartridge removal and reinstallation. In fact, it
> was under this ploy that Epson introduced these newly featured
> cartridges with the chip. Of course, the real reason for them was to
> make the cartridges impossible to use again with a reprogrammer for the
> chip.
The bottom line is still that Epson will employ every dirty trick in the
book ...pig ink, nonreusable carts, chip controlled carts, etc.... to force
owners into buying ever more insanely overpriced ink cartridges. Fine. If
you want to keep paying, be my guest.
nb
Arthur Entlich
notbob wrote:
> On 2004-11-24, Arthur Entlich <arti...@telus.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Further, yes, since the chipped Intelledge cartridge was designed with a
>>spring loaded valve on each ink outlet, the cartridges and printers are
>>designed to allow for cartridge removal and reinstallation. In fact, it
>>was under this ploy that Epson introduced these newly featured
>>cartridges with the chip. Of course, the real reason for them was to
>>make the cartridges impossible to use again with a reprogrammer for the
>>chip.
>
That last line was supposed to read:
make the cartridges impossible to use again withOUT a reprogrammer for
the chip.
Yes, Epson and most other manufacturers of ink cartridges make their
money mainly on consumables and go out of their way to make it difficult
to use other brands of ink or to refill the old cartridges.
Art
notbob
> Yes, Epson and most other manufacturers of ink cartridges make their
> money mainly on consumables and go out of their way to make it difficult
> to use other brands of ink or to refill the old cartridges.
I don't mind paying for the consumables, but Epson's blatant greed is just
too much to endure. $35 for plain black cartridge in a $90 printer! Mamma
notbob didn't raise no fools.
nb ...gone to laser
GEO
>nb ...gone to laser
A new expression?
Gone postal: shot the people he considered guilty.
Gone laser: .... ?
Geo
notbob
Gone to an toner cartridge that will provide 3000 pages (if the drum lasts)
for the same price as Epson's 300 page (if it don't clog) inkjet cartridge.
I've discovered one truism for all home printers ...use it or lose it!
nb
Anti-imperialist
Me too. My sentiments exactly. I just bought a $244 HP Laser printer.
I have had it up to here with this inkjet crap.
--
Anti-imperialist
LOL, I thought "nb" above was "nota bene". I used to be a paralegal.
:D
--
Arthur Entlich
much more per print than a black laser printer can provide.
However, this is in part due to the considerable lowering in price of
laser printers.
I suspect full color images still fall to inkjet in terms of cost of the
printer, cost of the consumables, and quality or result. That, will
probably change also over time, as well.
Art
horace
>
> Arthur Entlich wrote:
>
>
> others are not only more difficult, they're beyond what is reasonably
> expected of a consumer.
>
> Anything that requires disassembly or some mechanical knowledge is
> beyond expectations. A printer is supposed to print when you turn it on,
> plain and simple. If it needs new ink, you stick in new cartridges.
> Pretty much anything else is extraordinary requirements.
I was in a local computer store looking a color laser printers the other
day. A lady approached me and suggested that I consider buying an Epson
ink jet printer instead of a color laser printer. I told her that the
last ink jet printer that I bought was an Epson 750 Stylus Photo
printer, and that I have used more ink cleaning the damn thing than I
have used printing. She told me that the "new" Epson printers don't clog
up as much as the older printers did. All I can say is that I read this
group ot get a feel of what is happening in the printer market, and it
looks as if the Epson printers still clog easily.
There is nothing "special" a person should have to do to keep his or her
printer from clogging. Whether a person prints everyday or once a month
the printer should work without running two or three cleaning cycles. I
will NEVER buy another Epson printer until Epson learns to make a
printer that does not need to be cleaned every time one wants to print.
Having said that, I can say that my Epson 750 has never clogged to the
point where I had to more than just run a few cleaning cycles. I am very
happy with the prints I get from it, too. It is just a shame that a
company that makes printers cannot get it together and make a printer
that does not clog.
just my 2cents
Edward W. Thompson
>
>My relatively new HP 6540 has sat for 11 days when I was away, and
>printed perfectly upon my return without any cleaning. Granted that's
>only a week and a half, but at least it gives me an idea of how well it
>seals in the parking station.
>
snip
The inkjet printer industry must be in a sorry state if accolades are
given when a machine does not clog after being left idle for 11 days!
The blue jet of my HP930C color cartridge clogged, after being idle
for a month. This was a genuine HP #78 cartridge, never refilled. If
I had a printer with individual color cartridges I would need to
replace one at a third of the cost of having to replace the tricolor
cartridge. I suppose the good news is I don't have to bear the cost of
a print head.
The whole inkjet printer industry seems to me to be engaged in a
consumer rip off, the difference between the Manufacturers products is
one of detail not of essence. The overrall cost of printing color
using inkjet printers (machine cost + ink cost + paper) is undoubtedly
very high.
George E. Cawthon
That was just one person reporting. My HP 970 got intensive
several years ago but now has light use most of the time and
intensive use only near Christmas. It has only had 2 (maybe
3) color cartridges since I bought it (within 3 months of
when the 970 came out). I printed something with color
after a long in active spell and only once did it have
streaks, so I went through a cleaning cycle and had to
repeat the cleaning cycle. I have no idea how long the
intervals are between color use but possibly as long as 6
months. Never have had any streaking of black, but then I
use black usually at least once every two weeks.
Rus
cartridges at $3 U.S. each. Slow printing in higher resolutions, but, cost
per page ridiculously cheap.
In addition to that SP 750, I've got a SP900, a SP1280, and a C86. Once I
learned the trick to keeping the nozzles clear, I was no longer afraid of
the dreaded Epson cleaning cycles. Prior to discovering "the trick," I
imagined myself bogged down with repetetive nozzle cleaning cycles x 4
machines which would eat up $$$ just running the cycles. Once I learned how
to keep the SP 750 running clear with only a couple of single cleaning
cycles per month, I was ready to buy a few more Epson printers.
My little trick: I cut fabric strips that are about the width of the print
head and about 2.5 feet long. I saturate a strip with a Windex type cleaner
and slide that strip under the head. I do that several times until it looks
like the head is cleaned and I'm only wicking ink out of the nozzles. I
also clean the purging/parking station and the wiper.
I don't know why this works. Is it simply because I'm wicking ink out of
the head? Is it because I'm cleaning dried ink from the head surface?
Dried ink that is blocking some ports? Don't know which. Only know it
works.
You do this while the printer is off. Each printer has a lever that must be
flipped out of the way in order to allow the print head to be moved
manually.
I do this manual cleaning routine about once a month. I seldom have to run
cleaning cycles any more ... only once in a great while. When I do run a
cleaning cycle, it usually takes only one "cycle" to do the deed whereas it
used to take 3 to 6 cycles.
I guess, as you say, it's a shame to have to do this kind of manual
maintenance ... on the other hand ... it's nice to fully load a printer with
ink for about $20 or less (compared to $100 or so for some of the Lexmark
and HP printers using 6 colors.)
The Epson printer isn't for everyone. It does seem to require a little
extra care, but, I like 'em. I don't mind giving 10 minutes of my time to a
permanent head that seems to last and last until the software driver wears
out (but, the SP 750 is running fine in WinXP and WinLonghorn using the
Win2K driver so that driver should be good for another 5 years, at least.)
//rus//
"horace" <hor...@ping.net> wrote in message
news:41D35C66...@ping.net...
measekite
that the Canon does not have. Every time you turn an Epson on and off
it uses and wastes ink. That was from an Epson factory rep.
Arthur Entlich
expressed out of a large number of very tiny holes.
That design is not without problems.
However, the beauty of the design is that is is materially minimalist,
and relatively easy to produce. If you want a completely foolproof
inkjet printer, it could be made. It would just cost way more than you
would be willing to pay.
Ever pick up a color laser printer and then an inkjet model? Notice the
difference in weight? Well, there's a reason for that.
How about a 13" wide, 20", 24" 48" or 90" wide color laser printer? How
about a color laser printer with a 44" long printing ability on one roll
sheet of paper?
Think about the cost of the processor and memory required for a larger
color laser printer.
What inkjet printer companies have done in terms of cost and quality is
amazing. The results are superior to almost every laser printer on the
market. So, yes, they require some maintenance and regular use to keep
them healthy. And I would love to see some design change to improve
several aspects of the printers, but no one can begrudge the
unbelievable quality inkjet printers can produce considering the cost of
the basic machines.
And that is why, in spite of the problems, million are sold each year,
from 8" to 100" wide and from under $100 to over $10,000 each.
Art
Arthur Entlich
ink that accumulates under the heads over time. My only concern would
be left over pieces of threads and link from the fabric. You need to
choose your fabric with some care.
The process does indeed work well, and is quite similar to that which I
suggest in the manual I've developed.
The manual covers lots of other issues that can come up with Epson
printers, and CISs, but you've got the basics down.
Art
Andrew
1000 feet per minute on continuous paper that is up to 4
feet wide. This equates to over 6000 8.5 x 11" sheets per
minute. It costs more than a million dollars and it breaks
down too.
johnmcl...@yahoo.com
3rd party toner in their laser printer, it violates the warranty. Thus,
you must buy one of their expensive a$$ toners...
Harvey
<johnmcl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1106769344.8...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>I work for an HP repair center, and they tell us that if anyone uses a
> 3rd party toner in their laser printer, it violates the warranty. Thus,
> you must buy one of their expensive a$$ toners...
>
Yet another reason to avoid buying an HP printer then.
Kevin
exactly why there is class action lawsuit against some of the major printer
manufacturers. They can't void the warranty for this reason. I have, in
the distant past, used third party cartridges in one of my Epson printers
and when I had a problem with the printer I called Epson and told them flat
out that I was using non-OEM cartridges. I was told at that time that
although they would prefer I use factory Epson cartridges, there was no
problem with my warranty, as long as the cartridges could be shown to not be
the source of the problem. They were not the source of my problem with the
printer and Epson sent me a new printer in exchange, all shipping paid by
Epson.
<johnmcl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1106769344.8...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Arthur Entlich
3rd party product damaged the printer. Since HP laser printers tend to
use a cartridge which contains most of the printing parts relating to
the toner, other than the fuser, I think they would be hard pressed to
show the toner used is responsible for damage to the printer, other than
maybe toner spillage, especially since more of those cartridges are just
refilled HP cartridges anyway.
Quality of the printer output, may be quite another issue, hwoever.
Art
Bob Headrick
> 3rd party toner in their laser printer, it violates the warranty.
Entirely untrue. HP says: "The use of non-HP print cartridges does not affect
either the warranty or any maintenance contract purchased from Hewlett-Packard.
However, if an HP LaserJet printer failure or printer damage is found to be
directly attributed to the use of any non-HP product, the repair will not be
covered under the warranty or HP maintenance contract. In such cases, standard
time and materials charges will be applied to repair the printer." See:
http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Document.jsp?objectID=bpl03766
Regards,
Bob Headrick
talkinggoat
opposite. i'll have to correct him next time i see him.
Arthur Entlich
Just send me an email privately, requesting the Epson Cleaning manual,
at the same address you'll find on the header to my posts.
artistic(at)telus(dot)net
(at) = @
(dot) = .
IF YOU WISH TO RECEIVE A CURRENT COPY PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING:
(if instructions are not followed, I cannot guarantee you will receive
the manual)
I try to respond as quickly as possible, but I respond to each manually,
and it takes some time. Since this is a service I do at absolutely no
cost to anyone (but me), and I dedicate my own time to it (and many
other causes) I do not take kindly to people who email me every few
hours (yes, it happens) asking "where is my d*mn manual, already".
Whenever I publicize the cleaning manual, I get a deluge of requests,
and it takes time for me to reply. If you do not get a reply within 72
HOURS, please ask again, it may have been lost or I may have gotten
sidetracked.
Please make sure you have given me an address I can reply back to
without editing it to remove tricky additions like "NOSPAM", and since
the manual comes via email and is about 60KB in size, make sure your
spam filter or other traps are lifted for my address so it doesn't bounce.
After you receive the manual PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, do NOT send it back
to me as a quoted message to thank me. I do not mind getting feedback
(even thank yous) but I already know what the manual looks like and it
is long, and it fills up my mailbox if I get several quoted back to me
each day.
In order for me to best be able to serve you:
1) Do NOT make the request through this newsgroup. I will NOT reply to
them. If you reply to this message, make sure you use "reply all" and
REMOVE the newsgroup address, leaving just mine.
2) Please indicate which printer(s) you are needing the manual for, I
have some add-ons which I provide for certain printers.
3) If you use non-Epson inks, please let me know and let me know if you
use refilled cartridges. I have no affiliation with Epson and I
honestly don't care if you use non-OEM/Epson inks or not. I no longer
use Epson inks, so that would be pretty hypocritical. But this can help
me narrow down a problem.
===============
If you are just requesting the manual preventatively, that's all I
request of you. If you are having a specific printing problem, please
continue below:
===============
4) If you are having a specific problem, please try to describe it as
accurately as possible.
* if there is a stripe or band in the print, is it in the direction the
head moves in, or the direction the paper move in?
* is the strip white or a colored, if so is the color always the same or
does it change with image content?
* how thick is the stripe and how often does it occur (does it occur on
every page, intermittently, or only with certain types of paper and
setting?) (Does it occur regularly every 1/8th inch, every 1", etc.)
* does the stripe continue into margin areas?
* when did it start? On cartridge change? after the printer sat for a
week or more, after a paper jam?
* Is the printer making any strange noises or other strange actions,
like the head unit smacking into one end or noises when the head it is
over the cleaning station that are new or unusual?
5) If you have a problem, please do a nozzle check if you can, and
describe it
* are any color missing, or misplaced
* are any steps missing, weak, curved, spattered, or misplaced
6) If you are using a continuous inking system PLEASE tell me. I have
had several cases of people keeping this a secret from me for some
reason, and after many volleys back and forth trying to help them fix
their problem they then mention it. Well over 50% of the time, if you
have a CIS, something relating to it is at fault.
I am getting ready to do tests on the R800 inks and gloss optimizer. If
I find special circumstances with them, I will announce it. It will
take a week or two for results, as I need to dry out some blobs (very
scientific, eh?) of ink for testing. I want to thank Darlene for kindly
providing me (and paying shipping!) with some "empty" cartridge sets to
get ink to test.
Thank you.
Art
pu...@purrpurr.com wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Jan 2005 16:39:05 GMT, Arthur Entlich <arti...@telus.net> wrote:
>
>
>>The reason why this works is indeed because it helps to remove old dried
>>ink that accumulates under the heads over time. My only concern would
>>be left over pieces of threads and link from the fabric. You need to
>>choose your fabric with some care.
>>
>>The process does indeed work well, and is quite similar to that which I
>>suggest in the manual I've developed.
>>
>>The manual covers lots of other issues that can come up with Epson
>>printers, and CISs, but you've got the basics down.
>>
>>Art
>
>
>
> Hi Art
>
> How do I get a copy of your Manual..
>
>
Bob Kos
Very late but here's my $.02 too.
I have had the opportunity in recent months to go through literally hundreds
of used IJ & laser printers. I found all kinds of HPs without cartridges.
I learned FAST not to buy HP cartridges to test an unknown printer. Caching
$$$!!! I walked over every lexmark I found because I could buy a new one
for the cost of a set of cartridges. Yuk... But then there were the
Epsons. I carefully selected about 8 or 10 printers of various pedigree.
Mostly C series models in exceptionally nice cosmetic condition. I gathered
sets of cartridges together. I downloaded files & drivers. You know that
EVERY stinking one of those printers had clogged print heads. Every one!!!
I disassembled, cleaned, scrubbed, peroxided, compressed aired, you name it
short of a complete submersion. I never got a single printer working right.
The closest I got was everything but red on a C82. On that one I spent an
unbelievable amount of time trying to get it running. No dice. So to me
the Epsons are a pretty useless item. I can't imagine that my 100% clogged
head rate is a far departure from the real world.
My keeper is a nice HP 2000C Professional that had cartridges and works well
despite very occasional use.
Davy
replacement, well that lasted a little longer, that clogged on the
4th day and that failed.
All that with genuine Epson ink, so how come since we don't grow
icicles and it's not used next to an oven in a bakery did one post
suggest's it's the owner's fault?
They both ended up in the trash, I went and bought a Canon this is
over 3 months old and not one single head clog.
With the Epson's I had to check each print whther text or photo with
the Canon I don't have to, I get 100% reliability to date and with
each print, plus the fact its a darn sight more economical and don't
waste ink.
What Epson do not tell you is that you must never do more than 6
continuous cleans as this will cause head damage - so say Epson
Technical.
Also the reason for the chipped tank is not to fleece people out of
their hard earned cash, but to leave a substantial amount of ink in
the head chambers, Epson says ink bubbles, I take this to mean an
'air lock' will damage the heads.
PC World claims that there is 20% of ink left in a C84 when the tank
say's empty....!
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,114590,00.asp
Here's a snip-;
Quote-:
The Stylus C84 on average stopped printing with 20 percent of the ink
left in the cartridge, while the Canon i850 stopped printing with 10
percent of the ink left. Canon says that it generally strives to
leave 6 percent of a cartridge's ink as a safety margin. Epson
doesn't disclose its target residual ink levels, nor will the company
comment on why so high a proportion of the total ink is unused when
printing stops. The other printers we tested gave low-ink messages
but never stopped functioning (see the test report for details).
Unquote:
"Don't get clogged with an Epson"
Davy
Blair
"Bob Kos" <s...@text.for.eddress> wrote in message
news:f4ESe.4990$4P5....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "horace" <hor...@ping.net> wrote in message
> news:41D35C66...@ping.net...
> > Bill wrote:
> > >
> > > Arthur Entlich wrote:
> > >
> > > >There are some things you can do to lessen the risk of Epson head
> clogs.
> > >
> > > While I think several of your suggestions are good, for most users the
> > > others are not only more difficult, they're beyond what is reasonably
> > > expected of a consumer.
> > >
and I always use compatible cartridges and have never had a clog!
I do print a lot of photographs as well as normal typing.
The 880 has only two cartridges one for black and one for colour.
Am I lucky or is it because the printer is used a lot ?
Blair
Unknown
Blair
There is no doubt that regular printing is good for inkjets of all persuasions,
I always recommend at least two pages per week to inkjet users and I follow
this practice myself. It seems to reduce head clogging.
Tony
SLLD
Good ones are not a problem
PS I buy from printpal.com
"Bob Kos" <s...@text.for.eddress> wrote in message
news:f4ESe.4990$4P5....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
Blair
"SLLD" <jimn...@isp.com> wrote in message
news:96d20$431c9ed2$4e75697$17...@DIALUPUSA.NET...
get my photographic paper
from them.
Blair
ian lincoln
"Blair" <dar...@coille.com> wrote in message
news:dfj8vg$ll4$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
That would be www.choicestationery.com
I have been using them for 2 years with canon i850. Never had a problem til
i tried 7dayshop. Now its clog clog clog. Irretreivably so. Mind you i
know someone who has gone through a bj330 and a i250. Clogged up. That too
from choicestationery. It may be because they are pigment ink printers. I
tried cartridge world but the colour accuracy was way off.
On one of the sites (I think it is steves digicams or maybe its the iphoto
one) there is a testprint of colour squares, a buck house guardsman, an
array of dyed cotton spools and a smiling baby. I have used that as the
benchmark for all my printers inks and papers. Its a 900kb jpeg. I managed
to grab it off the site. It was a review of a canon i9950 i believe. There
is also a highly saturated picture of a really professionally done graffiti
wall. It is used to highlight the extra red and blue now found in 8 colour
printers.
Arthur Entlich
Epson printers and came up with my name and email address, since I have
a cleaning manual for clogged Epson print heads, which works over 98% of
the time, and has saved literally thousands of Epson printers from the
dump by bringing them back to perfect use.
The manual is free, the cost of the materials to clean is under $2 and
the time involved varies from 15 minutes to several days (mainly of
waiting for the cleaners to do their job) depending upon how clogged the
heads are.
Any printer with permanent heads which is left with old cartridges or
no cartridges is bound to have badly clogged heads.
If your description is even partially accurate, you made some grave
errors in your attempts and it is no wonder you couldn't get them working.
Art
Arthur Entlich
end Epson printers.
However, he makes an assumption that because he came across two bad
printers, probably both from the same manufacturing run, that he can
generalize to all printers made by a company and this is a tremendous
oversimplification, and basically wrong.
Further his experience is tainted by some very poor customer service he
received from Epson UK or their contracted service depot.
The whole incident ends up being over generalized, and therefore is
unfairly lopsided.
Literally millions of people use Epson printers in all sorts of consumer
and commercial applications and do so for a reason. They also have
access to Canon, Lexmark, HP and other brands, but continue to choose
Epson, because of the ink characteristics, the color management and the
reliability of the printers.
I am not promoting Epson printers. They do require extra maintenance to
produce consistently good prints. To some, the extra effort is well
worth it, while others are more accepting of printers with other
limitations to have a printer with less upkeep.
It's up to you.
Art
Stick Stickus
-- "ian lincoln" <jes...@sux.com> wrote in message
news:%WdTe.612$k22...@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>
> "Blair" <dar...@coille.com> wrote in message
> news:dfj8vg$ll4$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
>>
>> "SLLD" <jimn...@isp.com> wrote in message
>> news:96d20$431c9ed2$4e75697$17...@DIALUPUSA.NET...
>>> I have been using non epson carts for over 4 years
>>> Good ones are not a problem
>>> PS I buy from printpal.com
>>>
>>> "Bob Kos" <s...@text.for.eddress> wrote in message
>>> news:f4ESe.4990$4P5....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>> >
>>> > "horace" <hor...@ping.net> wrote in message
>>> > news:41D35C66...@ping.net...
>>> >>
>> For information I buy my compatibles from Choice Stationary Supplies. I
>> also
>> get my photographic paper
>> from them.
>> Blair
>
> That would be www.choicestationery.com
>
> I have been using them for 2 years with canon i850. Never had a problem
> til i tried 7dayshop. Now its clog clog clog. Irretreivably so. Mind
> you i know someone who has gone through a bj330 and a i250. Clogged up.
> That too from choicestationery. It may be because they are pigment ink
> printers. I tried cartridge world but the colour accuracy was way off.
I too use Cartridge World Compats and refills, never had a problem with
colour accuracy, maybe the paper your using?
Bob Kos
was to remove the head from the machine and set it on a paper towel
saturated with windex till I could see ink bleed. Then reassemble. If that
failed, I would continue along various logical paths till I felt that the
attempt was in vain then move on.
Could you post your information or the means to obtain it?
Or e-mail me - bobkos at earthlink dot net ?
I still have access to Epson printers. They get thrown away by the bundle.
I still have cartridges. I'll try again.
Thanks for your reply..
"Arthur Entlich" <e-prin...@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:l7eTe.106453$Hk.21584@pd7tw1no...
Arthur Entlich
Art
Davy
[quote="Arthur Entlich"]Davy is understandably upset with the
experience he had with his two low
> end Epson printers.
>
service he
> received from Epson UK
Just to clarify,
Epson UK was the one who provided me with poor service, customer
services had me doing cleaning test's, when technical department came
on they had me doing even more cleaning test's.
It was from this I learned that you must never do more than 6 nozzle
cleans on a trot , by the time the phone call had ended what was new
tanks were now empty.
No mention of this damaging the heads in the manual is there?
The service agent literally (I say literally) threw the C62 into a
nearby waste bin, a short while after I learned he kicked Epson into
touch, the service agent was more helpful than Epson themselves.
You only need to look at the amount of problems in these pages alone,
maybe that was the reason.
If I had been using 3rd party ink I would have accepted that being
root of the problem - but I was using Epson inks, I don't grow
icicles and I don't have it next to an oven in a bakery ...!
Yes the C62 is a low end printer but it was certainly not reliable
enough to be placed on the market except for the purpose of wasting
ink.
Yes indeed I accept I'm painting all Epson printers with the same
brush which is wrong, but judging by the amounts of 'clogging' going
on with Epson printers then I have a point.
Davy.
Marky
"Bob Kos" <s...@text.for.eddress> wrote in message
news:f4ESe.4990$4P5....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
Not that it matters much at this point, but where did you get all these
printers?
I would think that if you had access to them, they were scrapped for
whatever reason (probably head clogging) and were probably there for the
very reason you couldn't get them to work.
UP until recently I had worked for Epson and I own several Epson
printers...in the last five years not one of them has had a serious issue
with head clogging...
My old C60 (that is currently offsite and printing dozens of photos for a
relative) has gone through at least ten cartridge changes and only skipped a
beat once when it wouldn't print some of the black...
The C series *80* models had problems...and I wouldn't own one of them (even
though my CX5200 is, in fact, an *80*) for this reason, but my experience
tells me that not every one of them had clogging problems...the 5200 has a
nasty habit of going off-line when I'm trying to print, but that is easily
corrected by turning the unit off and back on again (still haven't figured
that out though)...
Nice to see that you've found a good printer out of that bunch you tested...
Marky
No, the 880 was/is a great printer...mine has served me well and only has
problems if it is not shut down properly...
Marky
"Davy" <dav...@blueyonder.co-dot-uk.no-spam.invalid> wrote in message
news:l7FVe.4128$1z2....@fe10.news.easynews.com...
Well, Davy, I'm not sure why they told you that more than 6 cleanings would
damage the heads because it simply isn't true. Doing more than 6 cleanings
will use up ink and that is why they say this, not the damage to the heads.
Maybe you were speaking with a scripted tech, but that serves the same purpo
se if you are under warranty...Epson replaces the printer...no cost to you,
end of story...sometimes they even send you extra ink if it the
circumstances require, but they usually replace the printer with new
inks...or don't they do that in the UK?
You seem to have had more than one printer clog up so maybe the refurb they
sent you was on the ropes too...or, perhaps, the printer was left on all the
time...that will clog heads faster than you can imagine...but, again, not
all Epson C62s suffer the same fate...my C60 has performed flawlessly for
almost four years and has been through about ten cartridge changes...
Good to hear your new printer is still working good...my experience with
Canon printers (it was a BJ200 or something like that) was not so
great...$60 (Canadian, eh) worth of ink into the dumpster with the
printer...
I guess the world is round to go around...
measekite
Arthur Entlich
reply.
To the person, whomever it is who was speaking about the graveyard of
printer he went through and found "all the Epson printers had clogged
heads" well, guess what? Every Epson printer left without cartridges,
or allowed to dry out due to lack of use (which might be expected since
they were all in some printer graveyard), will indeed have clogged
heads, because they have permanent head which require they have
relatively fresh cartridges filled with ink installed to prevent
clogging. No rocket science here.
Secondly, whatever it is you did to try to repair the printers... well,
you obviously didn't do it correctly, because I have helped now close to
tens of thousands of people to unclog their Epson printer heads when
required, and it is usually a simple process that requires about 15
minutes of maintenance a few times a year. Yes, a neglected printer
takes more time, but still the success rate is very high.
Could Epson print heads be better designed... very likely. Do their
printer still offer the best print quality and color accuracy ? Yes,
likely they do..
Your experience is simply not typical, and to me shows you did not
understand enough about how Epson print heads work and how they can be
cleaned, if you had such a failure rate with them.
Art
Arthur Entlich
already, so what's the point) that doing six cleanings will not damage
the heads. Davy wants to believe this, so be it.
As you stated, cleaning the heads that many times just wastes ink and
gums up the parking cleaning pad and waste ink pads.
Art
Davy
[quote="Arthur Entlich"]I too will confirm (although I have told Davy
this at least six times
> already, so what's the point) that doing six cleanings will not
damage
> the heads. Davy wants to believe this, so be it.
>
> As you stated, cleaning the heads that many times just wastes ink
and
> gums up the parking cleaning pad and waste ink pads.
>
> Art
>
>
I can not tell an Epson Technical engineer that he is completely and
utterly wrong but can only argue with him, this would have made
matters worse and extended the phone bill don't you think...!
What you are plainly saying is that he is wrong and that you are
right, so who do I believe, all I can say he works for Epson so I
consider myself right and correct in taking his word.
Why should he say so, are you really saying he was giving me a load of
bull....?
Perhaps you will comment on the letter that I showed you from Epson
"Air bubbles damages heads" is that wrong as well...?
Yep... The Canons working great, not one wasted print yet.
Davy
measekite
Arthur Entlich wrote:
> Much of the quoted material below is misattributed to me, so I want to
> reply.
>
> To the person, whomever it is who was speaking about the graveyard of
> printer he went through and found "*all the Epson printers* had
> clogged heads" well, guess what? Every Epson printer left without
> cartridges, or allowed to *dry out due to lack* *of use *(which might
> be expected since they were all in some printer graveyard), *will
> indeed have clogged heads*, because they have permanent head which
measekite
Davy wrote:
OEM INK TOO
>Davy
>
>
>
Davy
the advice of Epson technical, be it right, left or otherwise.
It is self evident Epson printers are problematic, look through any
forum, look through user reviews on any shopping channel, they are
chief cloggers, yes other printers do clog, Canon, HP and many others
but nothing like the same number.
Have Epson addressed the problem no, otherwise they would have made
their heads replaceable, so in stead they try to stop people
marketing 3rd party ink's, it stands out like a sore thumb-:
Cheap printer's dear ink's more clogs, "If it clogs it's an Epson".
Davy
measekite
Davy wrote:
>measekite, yep I can say Epson clogs with OEM ink and I can only go on
>the advice of Epson technical, be it right, left or otherwise.
>
>It is self evident Epson printers are problematic, look through any
>forum, look through user reviews on any shopping channel, they are
>chief cloggers
>
AMEN
>, yes other printers do clog, Canon, HP and many others
>but nothing like the same number.
>
>
RIGHT ON. YOU NEED TO PRINT ON A MORE REGULAR BASIS WITH EPSON. AND
WHEN THEY DO CLOG THEY ARE NOTHING MORE THAN A PAPER WEIGHT
>Have Epson addressed the problem no, otherwise they would have made
>their heads replaceable
>
BUT ONE CAN ARGUE THAT THE CANON HEADS ARE NOT (ECONOMICALLY)
REPLACEABLE SINCE THE HEAD AND A SET OF CARTS COST MORE THAN A NEW PRINTER.
Davy
[quote="measekite"] wrote:
>
> WHEN THEY DO CLOG THEY ARE NOTHING MORE THAN A PAPER WEIGHT
>
>
You just gotta be joking......! The best place for em' is in the
deepest part of the Pacific or clod um into Seiko Epson's yard.
Davy
Arthur Entlich
technicians mis-speak regularly, especially in the area you work within.
What makes you think that inkjet printer techs are any different...
Ever have a car mechanic tell you wrong info? If not, I want to meet
your car mechanic.
The design of the head is published information. There are patent forms
which show the head design, as well as most of the service manuals.
Air bubbles won't harm the head either, although it can lead to an air
lock which may require some intervention to get unlocked.
The basic design is a crystal that works as a very small pump by
changing it's dimensions depending upon if it has current going through
it or not, and some small ink channels it is connected to which allow
for ink to be expelled out the end.
Unlike thermal heads, which use a resistor to heat the ink, and if no
ink is in the line, the components over heat and can fail, (in fact fail
eventually under any circumstance, piezo heads have the ability to
activate billions of times each, and produce very little head and it is
unlikely that that can damage the head.
Air in the chamber just causes the air to get pushed around, uneventfully.
So, yes, I am saying that the passive head cleaning process and air
bubbles don't harm Epson heads. What does damage the heads is
pressurized liquids or air forced through the head, which, if it is well
clogged can build enough pressure to delaminate it.
Art
measekite
Davy wrote:
ART DOES NOT LIKE YOU TO SAY THAT. SOON YOU WILL BE XCOMMUNICATED. DAT
MEANS DA KILLFILE. BUT OOH OOH FEAR NOT CAUSE DAT IS REALLY IMPOSSIBLE.
YOUR MESSAGE WILL ALWAYS GET OUT.
Davy
- come off it Art.
You have seen the letter written on Epson notepaper that air bubbles
damages heads.
I have said before that I can not prove that Epson Technical did say
cleaning more than six times damages the heads, you really do expect
me to turn round and argue - that really would do a fat lot of good.
A bit like saying to an airline pilot, "sorry mate but you don't know
how to fly this aeroplane", when maybe he's been flying them a decade
or so.
Perhaps they have the wrong guy working for them.. and it just goes to
show what kinfd of firm Epson really are.
Davy
Arthur Entlich
better and more poorly informed or that some didn't pay enough attention
in the training sessions.
It's true of trades people and lawyers and doctors, and, yes, Epson techs.
Q: As the joke goes, what do you call the guy who got the lowest passing
grades in medical school?
A: "Doctor".
Do I want that guy as MY doctor? No. So I try to learn how to weed out
the informed from the ill-informed by doing research and using my own
intellect.
In spite of your experience with two bad printers, millions of people
use Epson inkjet printers and a good portion of those use them in
commercial or professional applications, and wouldn't use another brand.
There are reasons Epson printers and their head technology are the most
adopted in professional fine arts and commercial applications. If there
really were better alternatives, people would be flocking to them.
We'll see how successful Canon is with their wide carriage professional
pigment ink models over the next year or so. They only recently
introduced these printers.
I am not loyal to any brand, I'm only interested in good competition in
the marketplace, good corporate citizenship, good environmental ethics
and good quality color output. None of the companies are stellar in all
these areas. Strictly on output quality, Epson still has the edge. On
the larger printer, oem consumables, Epson wins also.
As I have said many times before, and I don't hide it, Epson printers
require more maintenance, if for no other reasons than the inks they can
use and the permanent heads.
Art
Davy
[quote="Marky"] I'm not sure why they told you that more than 6
cleanings would
> damage the heads because it simply isn't true.
Maybe you ought to argue the point with an Epson tech
> sometimes they even send you extra ink if it the
> circumstances
You gotta be joking, I wasted almost a new tank thanks to them
[quote:6c057ea01d]but they usually replace the printer with new
inks[/quote:6c057ea01d]
Again you gotta be joking, any comment on "air bubble will damage the
heads", may be thats wrong as well...!
Epson are giving themselves a bad name judging by your comments don't
you think..?
Davy
measekite
Arthur Entlich wrote:
> What it shows is that in any technical field there are people who are
> better and more poorly informed or that some didn't pay enough
> attention in the training sessions.
>
> It's true of trades people and lawyers and doctors, and, yes, Epson
> techs.
>
> Q: As the joke goes, what do you call the guy who got the lowest
> passing grades in medical school?
>
> A: "Doctor".
>
> Do I want that guy as MY doctor? No. So I try to learn how to weed
> out the informed from the ill-informed by doing research and using my
> own intellect.
I WANT THAT GUY AS FRANKIE CRANKIE AND BUTIE FURTIES DOCTOR
Davy
quote="Arthur Entlich"]What it shows is that in any technical field
there are people who are
> better and more poorly informed or that some didn't pay enough
attention
> in the training sessions.
>
>
What does that exactly say about Epson, if they ain't concerned as to
what standards there own employers attain - that say's a lot for
their organisation.
In plain speaking.... 'crap'.....!
Davy
JohnQPublic
like Epson printers. Quite frankly, it's getting a little tired. Most people
come into these groups to ask for help. Not be berated for owning an Epson
printer. I would like to say thanks to Arthur Entlich for his help to anyone
who asks. And for not stooping to the levels of these other people. Always
professional and not the type to get into childish shouting match threads
with name calling and foul language.
"Davy" <dav...@blueyonder.co-dot-uk.no-spam.invalid> wrote in message
news:kez1f.11711$XF5...@fe02.news.easynews.com...
Marky
> I too will confirm (although I have told Davy this at least six times
> already, so what's the point) that doing six cleanings will not damage
> the heads. Davy wants to believe this, so be it.
>
> As you stated, cleaning the heads that many times just wastes ink and
> gums up the parking cleaning pad and waste ink pads.
>
> Art
Thanks for confirming that Art. It is unfortunate that some reps tell/told
people that, but if you get information from a source you believe should
know it is difficult to work the truth into the scenario when someone
actually provides it...
Marky
"Davy" <dav...@blueyonder.co-dot-uk.no-spam.invalid> wrote in message
> > Markywrote:
> [quote="Marky"] I'm not sure why they told you that more than 6
> cleanings would
> > damage the heads because it simply isn't true.
>
> Maybe you ought to argue the point with an Epson tech
That wouldn't be necessary at this point...maybe that tech is long gone
anyways...did you know that these people last an average of 6 months on the
front line? Do you know how difficult it is to train several hundred people
in a year and to make sure they all say the right thing?
> > sometimes they even send you extra ink if it the
> > circumstances
>
> You gotta be joking, I wasted almost a new tank thanks to them
I have, personally, sent out case loads of ink over the years...if a
customer has a legitimate complaint about using up half an ink cartridge it
is not a big deal to send them another one...they will, after all, buy more
eventually and most actually buy the genuine inks...
> [quote:6c057ea01d]but they usually replace the printer with new
> inks[/quote:6c057ea01d]
>
> Again you gotta be joking, any comment on "air bubble will damage the
> heads", may be thats wrong as well...!
Perhaps in the UK they don't offer this option, but the warranty in the USA
provides that most ink jets can be replaced if they fail. The key there is
that they take your credit card and if you send a printer back that is
simply out of ink they can, and will, bill you for it...
> Epson are giving themselves a bad name judging by your comments don't
> you think..?
The thing is, I've said it more than once that they are going above and
beyond the regular warranty. I don't spend much time reading about other
manufacturers products so I've heard little of issues with Canon, HP or
others. I'm sure it has happened and I'd be interested to find out what
those companies did, if anything, to satisfy their customers...
You had a bad experience with Epson...you probably wouldn't believe the
number of people who I spoke with that claimed they'd never buy HP, Canon or
others' products again and loved their Epson.
It's only in the last few years that there has been any kind of forum like
this where people can voice their opinions. Well, they've actually been
around for a while but the number of people accessing them has increased
exponentially lately...you may be technically savy in your own field and
know more than the average person about printers, but the majority of people
on the internet now have only had a personal computer for a very short
period of time and most of those systems came with a new printer.
These are the people that usually scream the loudest and do the least about
their situation and would rather blame the matter on corporate greed than to
spend an hour searching the internet for information...it's so easy to do it
that way and people are, generally, lazy over here and expect that their $40
printer should come with a lifetime guarantee...
Cheers!
Marky
"JohnQPublic" <J...@jqp.com> wrote in message
news:OrF1f.176076$p_1.1...@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> OK, I think we get it. There is 2 or 3 people in this newsgroup that do
not
> like Epson printers. Quite frankly, it's getting a little tired. Most
people
> come into these groups to ask for help. Not be berated for owning an
Epson
> printer. I would like to say thanks to Arthur Entlich for his help to
anyone
> who asks. And for not stooping to the levels of these other people. Always
> professional and not the type to get into childish shouting match threads
> with name calling and foul language.
Yes, I've noticed that about him too...
Davy
[quote="JohnQPublic"]OK, I think we get it. There is 2 or 3 people in
this newsgroup that do not
> like Epson printers.
>
When Epson Technical starts giving 'so-called' wrong advice and advice
that is against other knowledgeable people then something is
drastically wrong.
Anyone including you would not argue with a so called Technician and
would take their advice as genuine.
This is partly root of the problem, Epson ought to get their act
together if Art is right.
Davy
[quote] but the majority of people
> on the internet now have only had a personal computer for a very
short
> period of time and most of those systems came with a new printer.
>
>
are not supplied with 'ALL' 'ready to go computers.
>
> These are the people that usually scream the loudest and do the
least about
> their situation and would rather blame the matter on corporate greed
than to
> spend an hour searching the internet for information.
Printers under warrenty should be delt with by the manufacturer not
Tom, Dick or Harry.
>
> that way and people are, generally, lazy over here and expect that
their $40
> printer should come with a lifetime guarantee...
A 12 month warrenty should mean a 12 month warrenty whether the
printer is sold for $5 or $500
This is a failure on the manufacturer and not the user, it is not the
customer who should argue the rights and wrongs of their so called
technical experts.
If an Epson Tech say's do not do more than 6 cleans or head damage
will result I would assume that would be correct.
Who are you, me or Art to argue, the Tech is employed by Epson can't
you understand.
If the printers are forever clogging and Epson say's you want a new
head, hands you another printer and that goes exactly the same way in
the same period of time.
whether refurbished or not it was supplied by Epson who should ensure
that printer is going to be reliable.
You have said people expect a lifetime warrenty on other ocassions, I
would have expected someone like you to understand that 12 months
warrenty means that faulty products will be fix or replaced in that
period
I expect the product to be either fixed or exchanged , you seem to
assuming that I expect a lifetime warrenty and I exclude the nozzle
cleans here.
Davy
Arthur Entlich
nearly impossible to screen out of a large organization.
Art
Davy
[quote="Arthur Entlich"]No, it says that Epson UK has/had some poorer
employees. It something
> nearly impossible to screen out of a large organization.
>
>
Then it's certainly not a good company to deal with.. and how was I to
know that about Epson at the time..?
Epson suppose to be a renowned company why have they allowed
themselves to fall to this standard, they have only their selves to
blame, it is clear that they have failed the basic standard if they
allow non-technical or semi-skilled people loose on their
products.
It's not Good for Epson, not good for the customer and not good for
business and can rightly be called a poor company or a crap company,
it certainly can't be called a good company.
As you probably know Art, a fireman as to attain a certain grade, a TV
engineer as to achieve a recognised status & a airline pilot as to
do the same - so we all exclude Epson engineers from getting suitably
qualified before letting loose on their products - might as well call
the Simpsons for advice...!
Just what are they doing at Seiko Epson apart from sitting on their
butts and letting this happen - that is, if this is the case....?
Davy
measekite
JohnQPublic wrote:
>OK, I think we get it. There is 2 or 3 people in this newsgroup that do not
>like Epson printers. Quite frankly, it's getting a little tired.
>
IF YOU ARE TIRED THEN GO GET SOME SLEEP
measekite
Arthur Entlich wrote:
> No, it says that Epson UK has/had some poorer employees. It something
> nearly impossible to screen out of a large organization.
>
> Art
YEAH - LIKE MANY OF THE IDIOTS HERE
Marky
"Davy" <dav...@blueyonder.co-dot-uk.no-spam.invalid> wrote in message
> > Markywrote:
> [quote] but the majority of people
> > on the internet now have only had a personal computer for a very
> short
> > period of time and most of those systems came with a new printer.
> >
> >
> > And thjere are people who build their own computer, Epson printers
> are not supplied with 'ALL' 'ready to go computers.
> >
> > These are the people that usually scream the loudest and do the
> least about
> > their situation and would rather blame the matter on corporate greed
> than to
> > spend an hour searching the internet for information.
>
> Printers under warrenty should be delt with by the manufacturer not
> Tom, Dick or Harry.
> >
> > that way and people are, generally, lazy over here and expect that
> their $40
> > printer should come with a lifetime guarantee...
>
> A 12 month warrenty should mean a 12 month warrenty whether the
> printer is sold for $5 or $500
That is what the warranty is...one year...regardless of the MSRP...
> This is a failure on the manufacturer and not the user, it is not the
> customer who should argue the rights and wrongs of their so called
> technical experts.
Not all the printers fail, if that is what you are implying...
> If an Epson Tech say's do not do more than 6 cleans or head damage
> will result I would assume that would be correct.
Same difference...actually. Why are you belabouring this issue? If the rep
said it will damage the head and you stop doing the cleanings (and save your
ink) it has the same effect...they replace the printer under warranty and
you have a working printer.
> Who are you, me or Art to argue, the Tech is employed by Epson can't
> you understand.
I certainly do understand...you spoke with someone who gave you incorrect
information and I was merely pointing this out...do you understand how large
their workforce is and how often reps come and go? Do you understand what it
takes to turn a normal person into a picture-perfect tech support person? Do
you know how many mistakes I made over the years and how those mistakes were
corrected?
Do you understand the cost involved in running a technical support call
center and that it is a continuously changing process?
Do you realize that there are, literally, hundreds of thousands of people
that call and e-mail these people in one year and to screen that type of
mistake can take weeks?
You had a bad experience...millions have had good to excellent experiences
with these call centers...they happen to have streamlined things and
provided information on their website to reduce the number of calls/contacts
so that their workforce is being used in the most efficient and cost
effective way...
> If the printers are forever clogging and Epson say's you want a new
> head, hands you another printer and that goes exactly the same way in
> the same period of time.
Customers will get a replacement for up to one year...maybe longer if you
have repeated failures...
> whether refurbished or not it was supplied by Epson who should ensure
> that printer is going to be reliable.
And most times they do...if it fails again in the warranty they usually
replace it free of charge...if it is outside of the warranty in North
America they can either do a warranty exception and replace the unit or
refer you to a service center and often cover the parts and labour if it is
not too far out of warranty...
> You have said people expect a lifetime warrenty on other ocassions, I
> would have expected someone like you to understand that 12 months
> warrenty means that faulty products will be fix or replaced in that
> period
And they do...I had to set up hundreds, maybe thousands of products for
exchanges during the time I was there...and didn't see too many cases where
there were repeat failures...it is all documented on their system...
> I expect the product to be either fixed or exchanged , you seem to
> assuming that I expect a lifetime warrenty and I exclude the nozzle
> cleans here.
I didn't say you, but if you expected out of warranty replacements then they
can do that if you're civil with them...if you blow up and demand something
there is a good chance they will tell you they can't help you...they are,
after all, people who live and work and also buy products that sometimes
fail...many of them know exactly what to expect from the manufacturer...and
most people do not bother after the warranty is expired unless they've had
repeated issues with the product or they are in a tight spot and/or want to
get a freebee from someone...
It would be interesting to cross reference databases with companies like HP,
Canon and others to see if they are getting the same customers recycled...or
exchanged if you prefer...
I said this before, but you'd be surprised how many printers came in for
warranty work that had nothing wrong with them...except the customer didn't
want to replace the ink and knew that Epson would send them another printer
with new ink cartridges...free!
The honest, hard working people are the ones who end up paying for that...
Now, if or when you need to contact Canon support I'd be really interested
to see what your experience is with them...I've heard some manufacturers
offer 90 days of free phone support and then you have to pay per incident...
Cheers!
Davy
> I certainly do understand...you spoke with someone who gave you
incorrect
> information and I was merely pointing this out...do you understand
how large
> their workforce is and how often reps come and go? Do you understand
what it
> takes to turn a normal person into a picture-perfect tech support
person? Do
Then that guy should not be working for that company, for simply he
does not come up to a required standard.
You indicate the person should have very little limited knowledge -
what should he be capable of exactly..?
> you know how many mistakes I made over the years and how those
mistakes were
> corrected?
Here we go again... I am not interested in what you eat for lunch.
>
> Do you understand the cost involved in running a technical support
call
> center and that it is a continuously changing process?
>
Nothing to do with me.
> Do you realize that there are, literally, hundreds of thousands of
people
> that call and e-mail these people in one year and to screen that
type of
> mistake can take weeks?
Not relevant - their products failed they should repair it AND the
length of time it takes IS irrelevant...!
>
> You had a bad experience...millions have had good to excellent
experiences
> with these call centers...they happen to have streamlined things
and
> provided information on their website to reduce the number of
calls/contacts
Try getting around instead of keeping glued to this NG..!
>
> so that their workforce is being used in the most efficient and
cost
> effective way...
Are you serious ...l.o.l
>
> Now, if or when you need to contact Canon support I'd be really
interested
> to see what your experience is with them...I've heard some
manufacturers
> offer 90 days of free phone support and then you have to pay per
incident...
[/quote]
I have had no need to contact Canon, it ain't clogged yet...nor
needed one manual clean, compare that to a printer that clogged on
the 2nd and 4th day.
If you care to take time and read user's reviews about 'various' Epson
printers you will see that they are problematic, why are so many
people asking for help, I say again, all printers clog Epson are
the worse offenders.
Davy
Marky
"Davy" <dav...@blueyonder.co-dot-uk.no-spam.invalid> wrote in message
> > [quote="Marky
> > I certainly do understand...you spoke with someone who gave you
> incorrect
> > information and I was merely pointing this out...do you understand
> how large
> > their workforce is and how often reps come and go? Do you understand
> what it
> > takes to turn a normal person into a picture-perfect tech support
> person? Do
>
>
> Then that guy should not be working for that company, for simply he
> does not come up to a required standard.
>
> You indicate the person should have very little limited knowledge -
> what should he be capable of exactly..?
>
> > you know how many mistakes I made over the years and how those
> mistakes were
> > corrected?
>
> Here we go again... I am not interested in what you eat for lunch.
> >
> > Do you understand the cost involved in running a technical support
> call
> > center and that it is a continuously changing process?
> >
>
> Nothing to do with me.
Actually, it has everything to do with your experience...you got caught in a
worm-hole that shouldn't have been opened...
> > Do you realize that there are, literally, hundreds of thousands of
> people
> > that call and e-mail these people in one year and to screen that
> type of
> > mistake can take weeks?
>
> Not relevant - their products failed they should repair it AND the
> length of time it takes IS irrelevant...!
> >
> > You had a bad experience...millions have had good to excellent
> experiences
> > with these call centers...they happen to have streamlined things
> and
> > provided information on their website to reduce the number of
> calls/contacts
>
> Try getting around instead of keeping glued to this NG..!
Ditto!
> > so that their workforce is being used in the most efficient and
> cost
> > effective way...
>
> Are you serious ...l.o.l
No, actually I'm Aquarius...what sign are you?
> > Now, if or when you need to contact Canon support I'd be really
> interested
> > to see what your experience is with them...I've heard some
> manufacturers
> > offer 90 days of free phone support and then you have to pay per
> incident...
>
> [/quote]
>
> I have had no need to contact Canon, it ain't clogged yet...nor
> needed one manual clean, compare that to a printer that clogged on
> the 2nd and 4th day.
>
> If you care to take time and read user's reviews about 'various' Epson
> printers you will see that they are problematic, why are so many
> people asking for help, I say again, all printers clog Epson are
> the worse offenders.
>
> Davy
I'd say that you are convinced of that based on your two printers...not a
very wide population to do any real statistical analysis of the
situation...but significant nonetheless...to you...
Davy
> Actually, it has everything to do with your experience...you got
caught in a
> worm-hole that shouldn't have been opened...
>
Quite right - I shouldn't have bought Epson
>
> so that their workforce is being used in the most efficient and
> cost
> effective way...
>
Really...!
>
> No, actually I'm Aquarius...what sign are you?
>
Are you on planet Earth...? Into astrology now are we..?
>
> I'd say that you are convinced of that based on your two
printers...not a
> very wide population to do any real statistical analysis of the
> situation...but significant nonetheless...to you..
Yes indeed you are right I based the experience on two printers, along
with other Epson user comments and along with other peoples opinions
and the so-called Epson Technicians that according to you have a very
limited amount of intelligence and who can't tell the truth.
That tells me they don't know what the hell they'er talking about, it
is obvious it tells you otherwise as you can not see the point.
With Epson you get clog after clog after clog and a load of bull
according to you from their so-called technicians
That is why I say Epson is poor or plainly speaking - crap...!
Davy
Marky
"Davy" <dav...@blueyonder.co-dot-uk.no-spam.invalid> wrote in message
> > uote="Marky
> > Actually, it has everything to do with your experience...you got
> caught in a
> > worm-hole that shouldn't have been opened...
> >
>
> Quite right - I shouldn't have bought Epson
Well, since you have already said that a few times...
> > so that their workforce is being used in the most efficient and
> > cost
> > effective way...
> >
> Really...!
Truly!~
> > No, actually I'm Aquarius...what sign are you?
> >
>
> Are you on planet Earth...? Into astrology now are we..?
Earth...and, yes, as a matter of fact I am...does that make you somehow
superior to me? BTW, it was a an injectioin of levity...you are way too
serious about slamming Epson or trying to make me sound silly...
I read your previous posts when this was first discussed but stopped
responding to you because you resorted to name calling and other childish
tactics...let's not go there, OK...I've been posting on newsgroups for a
long time and I know where these things go...but I'm not afraid to go
there...IYKWIM...give that angle a rest will ya?
> > I'd say that you are convinced of that based on your two
> printers...not a
> > very wide population to do any real statistical analysis of the
> > situation...but significant nonetheless...to you..
>
> Yes indeed you are right I based the experience on two printers, along
> with other Epson user comments and along with other peoples opinions
> and the so-called Epson Technicians that according to you have a very
> limited amount of intelligence and who can't tell the truth.
I can see that having any kind of discussion with you is difficult because
you are fixated with this tech telling you it will wear out the head...as I
tried to explain, this is wrong and I doubt that it went much farther than
you and maybe a few others...this was Epson UK so I don't really know for
sure...but I do know for a fact that NA techs do not follow that line...they
tell you plain and simple that it wastes ink...
> That tells me they don't know what the hell they'er talking about, it
> is obvious it tells you otherwise as you can not see the point.
I can see the point, but it was one rep of probably two hundred...if they
are still saying this then maybe Epson UK doesn't care...but I've seen reps
pulled off the phones in my call center and given very stern but guiding
advice to not say things like that...
> With Epson you get clog after clog after clog and a load of bull
> according to you from their so-called technicians
And where is the happy Epson customer newsgroup to tell you that you are
wrong...I own several of them and not a single one has ever clogged...
> That is why I say Epson is poor or plainly speaking - crap...!
OK...whatever...
Davy
> Well, since you have already said that a few times...
>
No doubt you will continue to buy Epson, even if each and every one
went faulty
>
> so that their workforce is being used in the most efficient and
> cost
> effective way...
>
> Truly!~
Then they ought to get proper engineers instead of wannabes
> Earth...and, yes, as a matter of fact I am...does that make you
somehow
> superior to me?
>
I am not superior to anyone but you do seem to down rate Epson
Engineers yourself in the comments you made.
>
> BTW, it was a an injectioin of levity...you are way too
> serious about slamming Epson or trying to make me sound silly...
>
Review your comments, it's you who also said that Epson Techincal
wasn't up to scratch - so where does that leave you.. - better than
them perhaps..?
> I read your previous posts when this was first discussed but
stopped
> responding to you because you resorted to name calling and other
childish
> tactics...let's not go there, OK...I've been posting on newsgroups
for a
> long time and I know where these things go...but I'm not afraid to
go
> there...IYKWIM...give that angle a rest will ya?
Name calling, have I called you..? I have called Epson, you are
making it out I am calling everyone on this NG.. It's childish to
denounce and argue against the advice of an engineer, especially the
advice given in a letter on Epson headed notepaper...
It's plainly obvious either you are wrong or Epson are wrong.
> I can see that having any kind of discussion with you is difficult
because
> you are fixated with this tech telling you it will wear out the
head...as I
> tried to explain,
>
Saying you know better than a Epson technical engineer are you?
If they send you letters that you disagree with, you still say they
are wrong, does Epson ever tell the truth in your view that is...
>
>
> I can see the point, but it was one rep of probably two hundred...if
they
> are still saying this then maybe Epson UK doesn't care...but I've
seen reps
> pulled off the phones in my call center and given very stern but
guiding
> advice to not say things like that...
May be it is just Epson UK - Epson in general has allowed it to
happen.quote]
> I own several of them and not a single one has ever clogged...
>
Let's hope they stay that way.
Davy
Marky
"Davy" <dav...@blueyonder.co-dot-uk.no-spam.invalid> wrote in message
> > quote="Marky
> > Well, since you have already said that a few times...
> >
>
> No doubt you will continue to buy Epson, even if each and every one
> went faulty
No doubt at all...they are and have been excellent printers in my experience
with them...
>
> >
> > so that their workforce is being used in the most efficient and
> > cost
> > effective way...
> >
> > Truly!~
>
>
> Then they ought to get proper engineers instead of wannabes
>
> > Earth...and, yes, as a matter of fact I am...does that make you
> somehow
> > superior to me?
> >
>
> I am not superior to anyone but you do seem to down rate Epson
> Engineers yourself in the comments you made.
I have opinions on some things, but not with the engineering of the print
heads...the non-recyclable (for the most part) ink cartridges and the
competition for entry level products that end up in landfill sites
eventually...I think they should just skip over the entry-level products and
go with the mid to high-end products...the C60 that I had was mid-entry
level and it is, amazingly enough, a good product...the C40UX and others
that had no buttons (Stylus Color 480 and 580) were disposable
printers...but Epson did support the warranty for one year and most of them
actually lasted longer than the warranty...some did not...
But the design is, essentially, good...
> > BTW, it was a an injectioin of levity...you are way too
> > serious about slamming Epson or trying to make me sound silly...
> >
>
> Review your comments, it's you who also said that Epson Techincal
> wasn't up to scratch - so where does that leave you.. - better than
> them perhaps..?
Yes, actually...the one you spoke with was obviously a newby...been there
and done that myself...but I was always interested in customer service in
the sense that we were supporting a product and giving the correct
information in a timely manner was critical...for the most part we were just
going through the motions...if the printer did not respond to the
recommended cleaning cycles and the customer had changed the ink
cartridge(s) and it would still not print then under the warranty we set up
the exchange...
These calls are not supposed to go over ten minutes...that is how they
streamline the process so that more customers can be supported without
spending too much time on any one customer...if the rep you spoke with was
under a time constraint and was not 100% confident or versed in the "Do and
do not Do" scripts then he may have sloughed it off to 'damage the print
heads'...some customers expect you stay on the line with them while they run
a couple of dozen cleanings, change out a few cartridges, and tell you their
life story...in a call center time is money...
Under time constraints the tech can become flustered and some (but not all)
will respond to this stress with comments that are not 'sanctioned'....
> > I read your previous posts when this was first discussed but
> stopped
> > responding to you because you resorted to name calling and other
> childish
> > tactics...let's not go there, OK...I've been posting on newsgroups
> for a
> > long time and I know where these things go...but I'm not afraid to
> go
> > there...IYKWIM...give that angle a rest will ya?
>
> Name calling, have I called you..? I have called Epson, you are
> making it out I am calling everyone on this NG.. It's childish to
> denounce and argue against the advice of an engineer, especially the
> advice given in a letter on Epson headed notepaper...
Are you sure it was an engineer?
> It's plainly obvious either you are wrong or Epson are wrong.
> > I can see that having any kind of discussion with you is difficult
> because
> > you are fixated with this tech telling you it will wear out the
> head...as I
> > tried to explain,
> >
>
> Saying you know better than a Epson technical engineer are you?
Are you sure it was an engineer? Being in the support group I had access to
Advanced Product Support reps who had more advanced understanding of the
fine points of the products, but they were not engineers...these are the
people who usually send out letters to customers or the senior techs (like
myself) would pass information along to customers as handed down from this
group...but none of them or us were engineers...they spoke with engineers
directly when needed...but engineers (in NA) do not contact
customers...neither do the software developers, senior executives or R&D
groups...
They are far too busy to deal with individual requests for written
statements about product operation...that's what the manual is for...and
that's all an end-user is actually entitled to know...design, service, and
other proprietary information is not (generally) available to
end-users...but techs and APS can certainly generate letters to satisfy a
customer's curiosity...
Do you still have the letter? It would be interesting to see this
document...
> If they send you letters that you disagree with, you still say they
> are wrong, does Epson ever tell the truth in your view that is...
> >
> >
> > I can see the point, but it was one rep of probably two hundred...if
> they
> > are still saying this then maybe Epson UK doesn't care...but I've
> seen reps
> > pulled off the phones in my call center and given very stern but
> guiding
> > advice to not say things like that...
>
> May be it is just Epson UK - Epson in general has allowed it to
> happen.quote]
>
> > I own several of them and not a single one has ever clogged...
> >
> Let's hope they stay that way.
Yes...that's all we can do...
Davy
> Do you still have the letter? It would be interesting to see this
> document...
>
Yes I have the 'original' letter somewhere, I did scan it and have it
on file which is available.
I sent Arthur a copy of it quite a while back, so feel free to take
the matter up with him if you wish, that is saying I do not mind it
being discussed and would be happy to supply you with a copy.
I am not dragging Art into this but I did send him some samples of the
problem, to be honest what they were like I can't remember and will
stand by whatever he describes 'if' he should do so.
Kindly note:
The 6 cleans saga I can not prove, I have said this several times,
this was in the very early days and was given via telephone, the
letter was the result of writing to them and afraid I did not keep
that letter to them, but was some time after.
Politeness was ensured both way's and no argument resulted at any
time.
> Epson UK doesn't care...but I've
> seen reps
> pulled off the phones in my call center and given very stern but
> guiding
> advice to not say things like that...
Customer service personnel usually goes, I understand, on training
seminas for this very problem.
For all I know I could have been talking to Tom, Dick or Harry the
office cleaner - When they say "Oh, I'll put you through to
Technical department", I can not say "Oh, no your not" you just have
to take their word, like if Epson said this or Epson said that who
is 'anyone to argue..!
From what I gathered I whould have been better E-mailing the
Simpsons..we are refering to Epson UK, Epson on a whole is surely
responsible for their policies, from memory I tried to enquire above
and beyond Epson UK.
Again I will say, it is the reliability I am on about not the print
quality that is not the issue here but the reliability that lead to
complete un-usability of two printers - all with OEM ink.
Davy
Arthur Entlich
apologist for Epson, or any other company for that matter. But fair is
fair, and I don't believe you are being that.
I don't have the energy to list all the companies where one of more
people that represent them, OR their products, or both, disappointed me,
or I was provided with faulty merchandise or advice.
The truth is more fit in that category than the other way around.
However, I try to be fair, although I don't always succeed. I try to
recognize that a specific product, or a specific run, or sometimes a
specific individual may mess up, and that doesn't condemn a whole company.
If I took the tact you have regarding each business that has messed up
at some point, I would literally have almost nowhere to go.
Simply put, some people have a string of bad luck with a product line or
company, and it isn't always an indication of a disastrous company or
product line.
Art