Dear Mother Hen and all you c.o.vers...

[VAXman-]

Hello,

Power and communications were just restored here after that bitch Sandy
knocked it out. I wanted to inform those of you who left me voice mail
messages of concern, especially you Mother Hen, that I'm alive and well,
and thankful that I'm back in the 21st century after close to a week in
the 18th century.

My home here fared well. I wish that I could say the same for many of
my neighbors and, especially, fellow New Jerseyans living directly on
the shore. My neighbor had their 2 story home instantly converted to a
1 story home when a large oak tree fell on it.

I and my family survived the week by sparingly using a generator after
the transformer on the pole outside our home exploded after a tree on a
neighboring street fell on the power lines. For about a quarter hour,
we heard transformers exploding all around us. When the transformer on
the pole outside my home exploded, it caused one of the 2 APC UPSs in my
home to burst into flames. It was quickly extinguished and then we had
to air the smoke and fumes out of the house in the height of Sandy. It
was the only major loss I experienced from the storm. The city sewage
pumping station in my area is still overwhelmed. Sewage is continually
backing up into the slop sink in the basement laundry room. The smell
is absolutely vile and it's even less fun when I have to bail the shit
out of the sink!

I understand, as all I've had for the week in terms of communications was
an emergency crank radio and a local talk radio station, that many of my
favorite NJ shore community haunts no longer exist. Northern Atlantic,
Ocean, and southern Monmouth counties were hardest hit. Lucky me, I'm in
Ocean.

Gas is nearly impossible to obtain -- I spent 4 hours on a queue to get a
5 gallon can for my generator filled -- and there are many without food,
potable water, homes and the other comforts of life. Please, if you feel
inclined, donate to help these people!

Enough for now...

Thanks for the concern.

--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG

Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.

[Bob Gezelter]

Brian,

Good to hear that you are ok. Here in Flushing, NY, I did not lose communications or power, but some blocks did. Many are back now, but some remain without utilities.

Transit system is coming back.

- Bob Gezelter, http://www.rlgsc.com

[Paul Sture]

In article <00AC9E2C...@SendSpamHere.ORG>,
VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

Glad to hear you are OK.

--
Paul Sture

[VAXman-]

NY'ers whine too much. We were thrust into the 18th century here due to
Sandy. A direct hit on the southern NJ coastline!!! Where the FARK are
those FEMA fuckwits and the red cross? I haven't seen a one! I'm not one
to piss and moan about my needs but there are so many here that no longer
have a home or even a pot to piss in! I can't believe (well, actually, I
can) that that fuckwit Obama had the audacity to make a fuckin' political
campaign stop here in the freakin' midst of Armageddon Wednesday??? They
closed down all of the major roads into Ocean Co. and interstate 195 a day
after we bearly survived a hell on earth causing convoys of support and
repair trucks to be stranded just so fuckwit Obama could get a political
I-really-(don't)-give-a-shit-about-you TV spot. That waylaid efforts to
so many people that needed it most by an entire day! He has GOT TO GO!!!
Not that that Romney fuckwit is better; what we all need to do is just
to keep churning the political cesspool until the morons get it!

BTW, I haven't seen a single JCPL truck on the roads here either. You
wanna know who got my power back on? TECO!!! The Tampa Electric Co!!!
Goddamn unionized fuckwits in the JCPL haven't done diddly here other
than to sit in the parking lots of the local Dunkin Donuts all day! I
do so hope they didn't over-extend themselves on their union breaktimes!

[Michael Moroney]

Glad you're all right. Did the exploding UPS take out any 'puters?
Wonder why the explosive surge, probably something like a transmission
line making contact with distribution lines, causing transformers to give
you excessive voltage before exploding themselves.

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:

>BTW, I haven't seen a single JCPL truck on the roads here either. You
>wanna know who got my power back on? TECO!!! The Tampa Electric Co!!!
>Goddamn unionized fuckwits in the JCPL haven't done diddly here other
>than to sit in the parking lots of the local Dunkin Donuts all day! I
>do so hope they didn't over-extend themselves on their union breaktimes!

I heard in the news that utility crews from some place like Alabama showed
up in New Jersey, all set to help out, but they were turned away because
they were not union! They just shrugged their shoulders and continued on
to New York, where they were at least smart enough to accept their help.

During the Ice Storm of 2007, a friend (in Massachusetts) had his power
restored by a crew from Oregon.

[David Froble]

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> They
> closed down all of the major roads into Ocean Co. and interstate 195 a day
> after we bearly survived a hell on earth causing convoys of support and
> repair trucks to be stranded just so fuckwit Obama could get a political
> I-really-(don't)-give-a-shit-about-you TV spot. That waylaid efforts to
> so many people that needed it most by an entire day! He has GOT TO GO!!!
> Not that that Romney fuckwit is better; what we all need to do is just
> to keep churning the political cesspool until the morons get it!

Doesn't matter who's in office, the government thinks they are better
than the people and we get all kinds bullshit. The flying TFRs are
terrible. But that's what you get when the morons forget they serve the
people and bestow royalty upon themselves ..

> BTW, I haven't seen a single JCPL truck on the roads here either. You
> wanna know who got my power back on? TECO!!! The Tampa Electric Co!!!
> Goddamn unionized fuckwits in the JCPL haven't done diddly here other
> than to sit in the parking lots of the local Dunkin Donuts all day! I
> do so hope they didn't over-extend themselves on their union breaktimes!
>

It's my understanding that when needed the electric companies help each
other in times like this. No one company can be expected to have a work
force able to replace large parts of their system. Surging help where
needed is a good thing.

They probably all have a union ....

[VAXman-]

In article <k773qt$8v0$1...@pcls6.std.com>, mor...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) writes:
>Glad you're all right. Did the exploding UPS take out any 'puters?

All the 'puter kit seems safe. I pulled apart the UPS and there were 4
very impressive heat sinks with 8 T0-220 transistor/regulator ICs on
each. It's impossible to tell exact part numbers because they exploded
burned as well as the PCB around them.

>Wonder why the explosive surge, probably something like a transmission
>line making contact with distribution lines, causing transformers to give
>you excessive voltage before exploding themselves.

A very likely the scenario or that the neutral made contact with another
phase in the area. All I can tell you is that for about 5 minutes after
the transformer outside my home exploded, we heard and saw the flash of
other exploding transformers in the immediate area. It was like the 4th
of July during a thunderstorm. They're very loud and have an impressive
flash and fireball when they go up! They smell very foul after burning.

>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>
>>BTW, I haven't seen a single JCPL truck on the roads here either. You
>>wanna know who got my power back on? TECO!!! The Tampa Electric Co!!!
>>Goddamn unionized fuckwits in the JCPL haven't done diddly here other
>>than to sit in the parking lots of the local Dunkin Donuts all day! I
>>do so hope they didn't over-extend themselves on their union breaktimes!
>
>I heard in the news that utility crews from some place like Alabama showed
>up in New Jersey, all set to help out, but they were turned away because
>they were not union! They just shrugged their shoulders and continued on
>to New York, where they were at least smart enough to accept their help.

I wouldn't doubt the veracity of that story. Unions, IMHO, have exceeded
their usefulness and should be disbanded; especially, government employee
unions and the teachers unions!

>During the Ice Storm of 2007, a friend (in Massachusetts) had his power
>restored by a crew from Oregon.

I going to assume that TECO restored mine. I'm in a JCP&L service area
but all I saw in my community were TECO trucks. Thank you Tampa, Fla!

[VAXman-]

In article <k77a6l$gs$1...@dont-email.me>, David Froble <da...@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>> They
>> closed down all of the major roads into Ocean Co. and interstate 195 a day
>> after we bearly survived a hell on earth causing convoys of support and
>> repair trucks to be stranded just so fuckwit Obama could get a political
>> I-really-(don't)-give-a-shit-about-you TV spot. That waylaid efforts to
>> so many people that needed it most by an entire day! He has GOT TO GO!!!
>> Not that that Romney fuckwit is better; what we all need to do is just
>> to keep churning the political cesspool until the morons get it!
>
>Doesn't matter who's in office, the government thinks they are better
>than the people and we get all kinds bullshit. The flying TFRs are
>terrible. But that's what you get when the morons forget they serve the
>people and bestow royalty upon themselves ..

Exactly! Lord Obama should have kept his ass in Wash. DC or busy on his
campaign trail promising Americans 4 more years of lackluster leadership.
The gov't resources used to secure the area, close those roadways and get
Obama in, about, and out could have been used to provide service to the
very people he wants to vote for him. The former admin was ostracized
for Katrina but I'm sure Obama is now being canonized for his political
photo ops in the midst of the destruction. Send in relief, not rhetoric!

>> BTW, I haven't seen a single JCPL truck on the roads here either. You
>> wanna know who got my power back on? TECO!!! The Tampa Electric Co!!!
>> Goddamn unionized fuckwits in the JCPL haven't done diddly here other
>> than to sit in the parking lots of the local Dunkin Donuts all day! I
>> do so hope they didn't over-extend themselves on their union breaktimes!
>>
>
>It's my understanding that when needed the electric companies help each
>other in times like this. No one company can be expected to have a work
>force able to replace large parts of their system. Surging help where
>needed is a good thing.
>
>They probably all have a union ....

I *AM* grateful for any of the help but IN TIMES LIKE THIS extraordinary
circumstances require extraordinary measures. One of those can be to put
the bullshit union rules on hold. Drinking coffee while while sitting in
an idling bucket and auger truck won't restore power to homes where people
are now freezing with the temperatures in the low 30F range.

[David Froble]

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> I *AM* grateful for any of the help but IN TIMES LIKE THIS extraordinary
> circumstances require extraordinary measures.

Agreed, and that is something people do in times like this.

> One of those can be to put
> the bullshit union rules on hold. Drinking coffee while while sitting in
> an idling bucket and auger truck won't restore power to homes where people
> are now freezing with the temperatures in the low 30F range.
>

It's hard to be objective when you're suffering. Might be the only cup
of coffee the guy had that day. Or not. Could be been between jobs and
waiting for direction to the next job. Don't know.

Among all the cynicism seen today, when people go out of their way to
help, it gives you hope for all of us. Those guys from Tampa might not
have any shelter, might be sleeping in their trucks, and their companies
have sent the people and equipment at their expense. Might get
reimbursed later. Might just be "doing the right thing". You might be
tempted to call them "heros", they'll most likely say "we're just doing
what we can".

Thinking about it, I'll bet there is a good chance those people from
Tampa are just returning favors that they've received more than once.
What goes around also comes around.

[Paul Sture]

In article <00AC9EAD...@SendSpamHere.ORG>,

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> In article <k773qt$8v0$1...@pcls6.std.com>, mor...@world.std.spaamtrap.com
> (Michael Moroney) writes:
>
> >I heard in the news that utility crews from some place like Alabama showed
> >up in New Jersey, all set to help out, but they were turned away because
> >they were not union! They just shrugged their shoulders and continued on
> >to New York, where they were at least smart enough to accept their help.
>
> I wouldn't doubt the veracity of that story. Unions, IMHO, have exceeded
> their usefulness and should be disbanded; especially, government employee
> unions and the teachers unions!

I thought the unions in the UK in the '70s were bad, but a good friend
10 years ago worked for a power station manufacturer. On a stint at a
customer in the US he wasn't even allowed to unscrew an inspection cover
himself, the appropriate union member had to be summoned. It really
p*ssed him off.

--
Paul Sture

[Paul Sture]

In article <00AC9EB0...@SendSpamHere.ORG>,

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> Send in relief, not rhetoric!

That reminds me of a couple of lines out of the film Banlieue 13:

Policeman: Libert�, �galit�, fraternit�
Resident: L'eau, le gaz, l'electricit�

Which is exactly what your neighbours need right now.

--
Paul Sture

[Bill Gunshannon]

In article <nospam-18A644....@news.chingola.ch>,

When I was working at the navy base in the beginning of this year if
you wanted your desk moved say from facing one wall to facing the window
you were not allowed to do it yourself. Had to have a union furniture
mover come in and do it. And if you did do it yourself and it was noticed,
they made youy move it back anb then have the union furniture mover come
and do it again. No joke.....

When I was leaving I had to clear the union even though I was never (and
never would be) a member. The union office has three full time employees,
being paid on the taxpayers dime, who do nothing but tell new employees
how great they are at orientation and sit around that office and initial
people's clearing paperwork.

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>

[VAXman-]

In article <k78gnv$t5l$1...@dont-email.me>, David Froble <da...@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>> I *AM* grateful for any of the help but IN TIMES LIKE THIS extraordinary
>> circumstances require extraordinary measures.
>
>Agreed, and that is something people do in times like this.
>
>> One of those can be to put
>> the bullshit union rules on hold. Drinking coffee while while sitting in
>> an idling bucket and auger truck won't restore power to homes where people
>> are now freezing with the temperatures in the low 30F range.
>>
>
>It's hard to be objective when you're suffering. Might be the only cup
>of coffee the guy had that day. Or not. Could be been between jobs and
>waiting for direction to the next job. Don't know.
>
>Among all the cynicism seen today, when people go out of their way to
>help, it gives you hope for all of us. Those guys from Tampa might not
>have any shelter, might be sleeping in their trucks, and their companies
>have sent the people and equipment at their expense. Might get
>reimbursed later. Might just be "doing the right thing". You might be
>tempted to call them "heros", they'll most likely say "we're just doing
>what we can".

It wasn't the Tampa guys sipping coffee. Hell, I'd brew coffee for these
people and give them travel cups to get their day underway. I'd offer the
crew that fixed the lines in my area free lunch too. Anyway to say thanks
for the special effort and service.

>Thinking about it, I'll bet there is a good chance those people from
>Tampa are just returning favors that they've received more than once.
>What goes around also comes around.

You'd like to hope that's true. Sadly, what goes around also comes around
is usually just wishful thinking to make one's situation bearable.

[VAXman-]

In article <nospam-35E583....@news.chingola.ch>, Paul Sture <nos...@sture.ch> writes:
>In article <00AC9EB0...@SendSpamHere.ORG>,
> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>> Send in relief, not rhetoric!
>
>That reminds me of a couple of lines out of the film Banlieue 13:
>

>Policeman: Liberté, égalité, fraternité
>Resident: L'eau, le gaz, l'electricité

>
>Which is exactly what your neighbours need right now.

;) I don't know French but Google was able to translate it!

[Bruce Bowler]

On Mon, 05 Nov 2012 16:15:10 +0100, Paul Sture wrote:

> I thought the unions in the UK in the '70s were bad, but a good friend
> 10 years ago worked for a power station manufacturer. On a stint at a
> customer in the US he wasn't even allowed to unscrew an inspection cover
> himself, the appropriate union member had to be summoned. It really
> p*ssed him off.

At a former employer, we had to install a largish room air conditioner on
the 6th floor of a building...

The following unions were required...

Movers, to move to small bits and pieces
Millwrights, to move the big bits
Electricians
Plumbers
Carpenters
HVAC
Cleaners
Painters
Masons (the plumbing had to pass thru a brick wall)

Can you say "Excessive"???

[JF Mezei]

A few comments to Mr VAXman

Glad to see you survived relatively unscathed.

Surprised to see your UPS blow up but nothing else in house. Would have
thought that if there had been a huge surge in voltage, yur ightbulbs
would have all burned too.

Glad to see you did not get major flooding.

With regards to Obama's visit, Bloomberg spoke about that. Obama
contacted various leaders to ask if his presence would be welcome.
Bloomberg told him he would rather he not come to New York. NJ's
Christie said he would be OK with it.

I terms of fuel, the power failures not only shutdown the gas stations,
but also pipelines, processing facilities and shutdown ports where
barges loaded with fuel would dock.


With regards to power restoration. If you have linesmen who have to wait
for the tree cutters to finish the job before they can lay the new
lines, it would explain why you see them idle in a region before they
get to work. Similarly, they may have been waiting for delivery of a
transformer (which easily get into short supply and must be shipped from
far away).


If they truly refused help from other states due to union issues, then
this should really be made public and a big stain on the local union.
Then again, politicians may not wish to insult unions.

However, generally, in times of crisis, unions would be stupid to not be
floexible when all of their members are employed and already working
overtime.

[FrankS]

Union story:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/akfrdxo

[MG]

On 5-11-2012 16:18, Paul Sture wrote:
> In article<00AC9EB0...@SendSpamHere.ORG>,
> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
>> Send in relief, not rhetoric!
>
> That reminds me of a couple of lines out of the film Banlieue 13:
>

> Policeman: Liberté, égalité, fraternité
> Resident: L'eau, le gaz, l'electricité

>
> Which is exactly what your neighbours need right now.

Else cars will be torched? (Going by the title of that film you
cited.)

By the way, VAXman, it's good to hear you're okay. (I also saw
you on "DR" again.)

- MG

[Single Stage to Orbit]

On Mon, 2012-11-05 at 12:33 +0000, VAX...@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> Exactly! Lord Obama should have kept his ass in Wash. DC or busy on
> his campaign trail promising Americans 4 more years of lackluster
> leadership. The gov't resources used to secure the area, close those
> roadways and get Obama in, about, and out could have been used to
> provide service to the very people he wants to vote for him. The
> former admin was ostracized for Katrina but I'm sure Obama is now
> being canonized for his political photo ops in the midst of the
> destruction. Send in relief, not rhetoric!

At least he is the _first_ black President of the US and that's
something damned special. And he's going to get another term, history
will only tell if he has made a difference..,

And remember, it was the Bush administrations who spent trillions on war
war war. Although it was necessary to go in and beat up a bunch of
tribes for playing silly buggers with religion years ago.
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

[VAXman-]

In article <2870abf2-9bc9-4eb3...@googlegroups.com>, FrankS <sapi...@noesys.com> writes:
>Union story:
>
>http://preview.tinyurl.com/akfrdxo

Of course they'd claim that now. People would be marching on JCP&L with
pitchforks, shovels and torches vis a vis a scene from Frankenstein.

[Paul Sture]

In article <50983d4e$0$3079$e4fe...@dreader34.news.xs4all.nl>,

MG <marc...@SPAMxs4all.nl> wrote:

> On 5-11-2012 16:18, Paul Sture wrote:
> > In article<00AC9EB0...@SendSpamHere.ORG>,
> > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> >
> >> Send in relief, not rhetoric!
> >
> > That reminds me of a couple of lines out of the film Banlieue 13:
> >

> > Policeman: Libert�, �galit�, fraternit�

> > Resident: L'eau, le gaz, l'electricit�

> >
> > Which is exactly what your neighbours need right now.
>
> Else cars will be torched? (Going by the title of that film you
> cited.)

I don't recall anything about cars being torched. The point of the
dialogue was that while the policeman was thinking "Liberty, equality,
brotherhood", the residents of the district were more concerned with
basic utilites: water, gas, electricity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_13

--
Paul Sture

[Paul Sture]

In article <00AC9ED3...@SendSpamHere.ORG>,

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> In article <nospam-35E583....@news.chingola.ch>, Paul Sture
> <nos...@sture.ch> writes:
> >In article <00AC9EB0...@SendSpamHere.ORG>,
> > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> >
> >> Send in relief, not rhetoric!
> >
> >That reminds me of a couple of lines out of the film Banlieue 13:
> >

> >Policeman: Libert�, �galit�, fraternit�

> >Resident: L'eau, le gaz, l'electricit�

> >
> >Which is exactly what your neighbours need right now.
>
> ;) I don't know French but Google was able to translate it!

Then it requires a little more explanation. The first phrase is the
national motto of France, and of course used by politicians:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libert%C3%A9,_%C3%A9galit%C3%A9,_fraternit%C
3%A9

--
Paul Sture

[Paul Sture]

In article <50981aa4$0$59888$c3e8da3$b280...@news.astraweb.com>,

JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:

> I terms of fuel, the power failures not only shutdown the gas stations,
> but also pipelines, processing facilities and shutdown ports where
> barges loaded with fuel would dock.

And it can be argued that the trend over the last few decades to "Just
In Time" (JIT) deliveries of all goods from fuel to hardware to
groceries exacerbates the shortages resulting from disruptions to
transport.

--
Paul Sture

[Phillip Helbig---undress to reply]

In article <50983d4e$0$3079$e4fe...@dreader34.news.xs4all.nl>, MG

<marc...@SPAMxs4all.nl> writes:

> > Policeman: Libert�, �galit�, fraternit�

> > Resident: L'eau, le gaz, l'electricit�

Erst das Fressen dann die Moral. I believe this is in one of Brecht's
plays: First feeding then morals.

[John Wallace]

On Nov 6, 4:59 am, Paul Sture <nos...@sture.ch> wrote:
> In article <50981aa4$0$59888$c3e8da3$b280b...@news.astraweb.com>,

>  JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
>
> > I terms of fuel, the power failures not only shutdown the gas stations,
> > but also pipelines, processing facilities and shutdown ports where
> > barges loaded with fuel would dock.
>
> And it can be argued that the trend over the last few decades to "Just
> In Time" (JIT) deliveries of all goods from fuel to hardware to
> groceries exacerbates the shortages resulting from disruptions to
> transport.
>
> --
> Paul Sture

UNBELIEVER! Off with his head!

Thou shalt not bear false witness against the Church of JIT.

Yea verily, even unto the highest temples, there art no true faith but
the faith of LEAN.

Meanwhile, in the real world, "company X again failed to meet its
delivery targets for the quarter. They blamed delivery problems from
supplier Q who were unable to supply the critical widget Z in
sufficient quantity." (Buffer stocks, and multiple suppliers, are
soooo unhip these days).

Deming (Dr W Edwards Deming, RIP). He's your man for proper thoughts
on these and many other things (though he goes back further than most
of them). Unfortunately you won't read much about him in many of the
usual places because he frequently points the finger at those in
charge, and that's not always popular, especially with those who want
to stay popular with those in charge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming#Key_principles

[Paul Sture]

In article
<199fffbf-3a2a-45bc...@b19g2000vbt.googlegroups.com>,

John Wallace <johnwa...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On Nov 6, 4:59�am, Paul Sture <nos...@sture.ch> wrote:
> > In article <50981aa4$0$59888$c3e8da3$b280b...@news.astraweb.com>,
> > �JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> >
> > > I terms of fuel, the power failures not only shutdown the gas stations,
> > > but also pipelines, processing facilities and shutdown ports where
> > > barges loaded with fuel would dock.
> >
> > And it can be argued that the trend over the last few decades to "Just
> > In Time" (JIT) deliveries of all goods from fuel to hardware to
> > groceries exacerbates the shortages resulting from disruptions to
> > transport.
> >
> > --
> > Paul Sture
>
> UNBELIEVER! Off with his head!
>
> Thou shalt not bear false witness against the Church of JIT.
>
> Yea verily, even unto the highest temples, there art no true faith but
> the faith of LEAN.

<Chuckle>

I was anticipating this reaction with my weasel phrase "It can be
argued..." :-)

> Meanwhile, in the real world, "company X again failed to meet its
> delivery targets for the quarter. They blamed delivery problems from
> supplier Q who were unable to supply the critical widget Z in
> sufficient quantity." (Buffer stocks, and multiple suppliers, are
> soooo unhip these days).

Yep. When I was first introduced to the cost of warehousing in the
1970s, one of my managers predicted JIT becoming popular simply because
VAT became payable when goods left the factory gate. VAT was only
8% (?) back then. It was inevitable that JIT would become more
attractive when VAT climbed towards 20% (and beyond in some countries).

However, as importers who wanted to provide a high quality service*
which included prompt supplies to customers, that company built a
whacking great warehouse extension, and gave heavy discount incentives
to dealers who kept parts in stock themselves.

* needless to say, that high quality service wasn't cheap, but customers
were willing to pay

> Deming (Dr W Edwards Deming, RIP). He's your man for proper thoughts
> on these and many other things (though he goes back further than most
> of them). Unfortunately you won't read much about him in many of the
> usual places because he frequently points the finger at those in
> charge, and that's not always popular, especially with those who want
> to stay popular with those in charge.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming#Key_principles

Cracking good stuff! Thanks for the link.

--
Paul Sture

[Bob Koehler]

In article <1352155261.2...@lithium.local.net>, Single Stage to Orbit <alex....@munted.eu> writes:
> On Mon, 2012-11-05 at 12:33 +0000, VAX...@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>> Exactly! Lord Obama should have kept his ass in Wash. DC or busy on
>> his campaign trail promising Americans 4 more years of lackluster
>> leadership. The gov't resources used to secure the area, close those
>> roadways and get Obama in, about, and out could have been used to
>> provide service to the very people he wants to vote for him. The
>> former admin was ostracized for Katrina but I'm sure Obama is now
>> being canonized for his political photo ops in the midst of the

>> destruction. Send in relief, not rhetoric!=20

>
> And remember, it was the Bush administrations who spent trillions on war
> war war. Although it was necessary to go in and beat up a bunch of

> tribes for playing silly buggers with religion years ago.=20

Also, remember the beating W. took when he surveyed the aftermath of
Katrina from an Air Force 1 flyover.

After that, I wouldn't expect any president to skip an on-the-ground
visit. Nice of Obama to check with Christie first.

Meanwhile, log jam or not, people like to see thier president. I've
taken the opportunity to see one even though he was not a member of
my favorite party, and during his speach promoted ideas I heavily
disagree with.

[MG]

On 6-11-2012 5:35, Paul Sture wrote:
> I don't recall anything about cars being torched. The point of the
> dialogue was that while the policeman was thinking "Liberty, equality,
> brotherhood", the residents of the district were more concerned with
> basic utilites: water, gas, electricity.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_13

Whenever I read or hear the word "Banlieu", I somehow think of hundreds
and hundreds of burning cars. (And, no, I haven't seen that film.)

- MG

[David Froble]

Single Stage to Orbit wrote:

>
> At least he is the _first_ black President of the US and that's
> something damned special.

In a country full of redneck bigots, that says plenty of just how bad
the Republicans were. Now if only people develop an attention span and
remember why they so disliked the Republicans.

Not that they've tried to improve. When a congressman says his most
important job is to insure Obama is a single term president, that
congressman should be recalled by voters in his district. These days
they don't even try to hide their lust for power.

> And he's going to get another term, history
> will only tell if he has made a difference..,

Hope you're right, today will tell.

> And remember, it was the Bush administrations who spent trillions on war
> war war. Although it was necessary to go in and beat up a bunch of
> tribes for playing silly buggers with religion years ago.

Yeah, and then the lying Republicans tried to blame all Bush's problems
on Obama.

(In case you think I'm just a bleeding heart liberal, not so, I was a
registered Republican until a couple of months ago.)

[Richard B. Gilbert]

On 11/6/2012 12:51 AM, Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote:
> In article <50983d4e$0$3079$e4fe...@dreader34.news.xs4all.nl>, MG
> <marc...@SPAMxs4all.nl> writes:
>

>>> Policeman: Liberté, égalité, fraternité
>>> Resident: L'eau, le gaz, l'electricité

>
> Erst das Fressen dann die Moral. I believe this is in one of Brecht's
> plays: First feeding then morals.
>

Non German speakers might miss the nuances! People eat (essen).
Animals feed (fressen).

[Dirk Munk]

Wisdom comes with age :-)

[Phillip Helbig---undress to reply]

In article <GLSdnd2sndIkxATN...@giganews.com>, "Richard B.

Gilbert" <rgilb...@comcast.net> writes:

> > Erst das Fressen dann die Moral. I believe this is in one of Brecht's
> > plays: First feeding then morals.
>

> Non German speakers might miss the nuances! People eat (essen).
> Animals feed (fressen).

Right. Except when people eat in a rude and greedy manner, which also
qualifies as fressen.

[Single Stage to Orbit]

On Tue, 2012-11-06 at 10:39 -0500, David Froble wrote:
> Single Stage to Orbit wrote:
>
> >
> > At least he is the _first_ black President of the US and that's
> > something damned special.
>
> In a country full of redneck bigots, that says plenty of just how bad
> the Republicans were. Now if only people develop an attention span and
> remember why they so disliked the Republicans.

I will be keeping my eyes glued to the BBC's live news for the results,
the earliest ones are due in about 30 mins.

> Not that they've tried to improve. When a congressman says his most
> important job is to insure Obama is a single term president, that
> congressman should be recalled by voters in his district. These days
> they don't even try to hide their lust for power.

Megalomaniacs, when will they come up with a cure for that? Oh wait, 007
had the perfect cure :-)

> > And he's going to get another term, history
> > will only tell if he has made a difference..,
>
> Hope you're right, today will tell.

2012 could be a crucial turning point.

> > And remember, it was the Bush administrations who spent trillions on war
> > war war. Although it was necessary to go in and beat up a bunch of
> > tribes for playing silly buggers with religion years ago.
>
> Yeah, and then the lying Republicans tried to blame all Bush's problems
> on Obama.
>
> (In case you think I'm just a bleeding heart liberal, not so, I was a
> registered Republican until a couple of months ago.)

What happened to change your mind?
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

[brad]

From ""The Threepenny Opera". In English, the song is called
"How to Survive". My high-school German is more than 40 years in the
rear-view mirror, so I'll defer to the native speakers (and the
excellent non-natives lurking here) for a proper translation.
>
>

[nightgu...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, November 4, 2012 6:41:05 PM UTC-5, VAXm...@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <296d0f22-c083-4f9f...@googlegroups.com>, Bob Gezelter <geze...@rlgsc.com> writes:
>
> >On Sunday, November 4, 2012 3:46:48 PM UTC-5, VAXm...@SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>
> >> Hello,
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Power and communications were just restored here after that bitch Sandy
>
> >>
>
> >> knocked it out. I wanted to inform those of you who left me voice mail
>
> >>
>
> >> messages of concern, especially you Mother Hen, that I'm alive and well,
>
> >>
>
> >> and thankful that I'm back in the 21st century after close to a week in
>
> >>
>
> >> the 18th century.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> My home here fared well. I wish that I could say the same for many of
>
> >>
>
> >> my neighbors and, especially, fellow New Jerseyans living directly on
>
> >>
>
> >> the shore. My neighbor had their 2 story home instantly converted to a
>
> >>
>
> >> 1 story home when a large oak tree fell on it.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> I and my family survived the week by sparingly using a generator after
>
> >>
>
> >> the transformer on the pole outside our home exploded after a tree on a
>
> >>
>
> >> neighboring street fell on the power lines. For about a quarter hour,
>
> >>
>
> >> we heard transformers exploding all around us. When the transformer on
>
> >>
>
> >> the pole outside my home exploded, it caused one of the 2 APC UPSs in my
>
> >>
>
> >> home to burst into flames. It was quickly extinguished and then we had
>
> >>
>
> >> to air the smoke and fumes out of the house in the height of Sandy. It
>
> >>
>
> >> was the only major loss I experienced from the storm. The city sewage
>
> >>
>
> >> pumping station in my area is still overwhelmed. Sewage is continually
>
> >>
>
> >> backing up into the slop sink in the basement laundry room. The smell
>
> >>
>
> >> is absolutely vile and it's even less fun when I have to bail the shit
>
> >>
>
> >> out of the sink!
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> I understand, as all I've had for the week in terms of communications was
>
> >>
>
> >> an emergency crank radio and a local talk radio station, that many of my
>
> >>
>
> >> favorite NJ shore community haunts no longer exist. Northern Atlantic,
>
> >>
>
> >> Ocean, and southern Monmouth counties were hardest hit. Lucky me, I'm in
>
> >>
>
> >> Ocean.
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Gas is nearly impossible to obtain -- I spent 4 hours on a queue to get a
>
> >>
>
> >> 5 gallon can for my generator filled -- and there are many without food,
>
> >>
>
> >> potable water, homes and the other comforts of life. Please, if you feel
>
> >>
>
> >> inclined, donate to help these people!
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Enough for now...
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Thanks for the concern.

>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> --
>
> >>
>
> >> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.
>
> >
>

> >Brian,
>
> >
>
> >Good to hear that you are ok. Here in Flushing, NY, I did not lose communications or power, but some blocks did. Many are back now, but some remain without utilities.
>
> >
>
> >Transit system is coming back.
>
>
>
> NY'ers whine too much. We were thrust into the 18th century here due to
>
> Sandy. A direct hit on the southern NJ coastline!!! Where the FARK are
>
> those FEMA fuckwits and the red cross? I haven't seen a one! I'm not one
>
> to piss and moan about my needs but there are so many here that no longer
>
> have a home or even a pot to piss in! I can't believe (well, actually, I
>
> can) that that fuckwit Obama had the audacity to make a fuckin' political
>
> campaign stop here in the freakin' midst of Armageddon Wednesday??? They
>
> closed down all of the major roads into Ocean Co. and interstate 195 a day
>
> after we bearly survived a hell on earth causing convoys of support and
>
> repair trucks to be stranded just so fuckwit Obama could get a political
>
> I-really-(don't)-give-a-shit-about-you TV spot. That waylaid efforts to
>
> so many people that needed it most by an entire day! He has GOT TO GO!!!
>
> Not that that Romney fuckwit is better; what we all need to do is just
>
> to keep churning the political cesspool until the morons get it!
>
>
>
> BTW, I haven't seen a single JCPL truck on the roads here either. You
>
> wanna know who got my power back on? TECO!!! The Tampa Electric Co!!!
>
> Goddamn unionized fuckwits in the JCPL haven't done diddly here other
>
> than to sit in the parking lots of the local Dunkin Donuts all day! I
>
> do so hope they didn't over-extend themselves on their union breaktimes!

>
>
>
> --
>
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)ORG
>
>
>
> Well I speak to machines with the voice of humanity.

Folks,
FEMA = Federal Emergency Management Agency, these people manage and support they are not front line types. Obama was smart to appear, appearance is part of leadership. If he stayed in DC, he would be damned for Not Caring. So a serving president has to show leadership especially after conferring with State leaders.

Limited State and local support, some due to draw down of state military reserves, other due to massive structural damage, is more of a factor. Comm failures and overloads would be a natural part of the structural problems. From Boston Metro area south, lots of thickly settled areas less than 10 ft. from tidal high water level. This means many areas with New Orleans style glass jaw, if hit by the right storm. It takes a real slamming emergency to force rethinking of traditional planning and emergency responses.

I was a tiny part of Blizzard of '78 cleanup. Now there are even more people living on landscaped sandbars, waiting for the next Big Storm. Thing are bad, but folks may be more ready for the next Big One. My Heart goes out to those still stranded or displaced by Sandy. It could have been much worse.

[David Froble]

Two things.

The Republicans will lie. I've seen specific instances. The problem is
some people will believe the lies, so they keep on lying. How do you
tell when a Republican is lying? When he opens his mouth.

The biggest thing was an act by President Obama right after he took
office. There are various committees in Washington DC to advise
congress on special issues where they may need some special insight.
The rule change was to bar from such committees anyone who declares 20%
or more of income from lobbying. What the Republicans did was pack
those committees with lobbyists. Who do the lobbyists work for? Not
your average citizen. Basically, the Republicans turned over the entire
country to those people who pay lobbyists. Nothing else comes close to
this betrayal.

[Single Stage to Orbit]

On Tue, 2012-11-06 at 20:19 -0500, David Froble wrote:
> > What happened to change your mind?
>
> Two things.
>
> The Republicans will lie. I've seen specific instances. The problem
> is some people will believe the lies, so they keep on lying. How do
> you tell when a Republican is lying? When he opens his mouth.

Out of sheer desperation probably.

> The biggest thing was an act by President Obama right after he took
> office. There are various committees in Washington DC to advise
> congress on special issues where they may need some special insight.
> The rule change was to bar from such committees anyone who declares
> 20% or more of income from lobbying. What the Republicans did was
> pack those committees with lobbyists. Who do the lobbyists work for?
> Not your average citizen. Basically, the Republicans turned over the
> entire country to those people who pay lobbyists. Nothing else comes
> close to this betrayal.

No wonder we all have to put up with shit that the Republicans foisted
on the rest of the world in order to protect their big businesses such
as Apple. Healthy competition goes a long way and I don't much like it
when companies use their clout to stifle innovation in the rest of the
world through patents that probably were invalid anyway...

Look at Apple suing Google and Samsung ;-/
--
Tactical Nuclear Kittens

[Paul Sture]

In article <50992b8c$0$3123$e4fe...@dreader34.news.xs4all.nl>,

The word simply means "suburb(s)" to me.

It's an enjoyable film and its sequel has nice twist at the end.

The chase scenes feature "Parkour". I've chosen this video because it
has an explanation at the beginning. There are plenty of other videos
on the subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMppD-bUNWo

And here's a clip from the film:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSge1vvNlOw&feature=related

--
Paul Sture

[Paul Sture]

In article <k7bq8v$u2g$4...@online.de>,
hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply)
wrote:

"Trough" might be a better translation.

--
Paul Sture

[MG]

On 7-11-2012 13:37, Paul Sture wrote:
> The word simply means "suburb(s)" to me.

It simply means areas where I don't normally come. (Also, it's
also worth pointing out that "suburbs" in Europe differ a 'bit'
from the North American ones!)

> It's an enjoyable film and its sequel has nice twist at the
> end.
>
> The chase scenes feature "Parkour". I've chosen this video because it
> has an explanation at the beginning. There are plenty of other videos
> on the subject.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMppD-bUNWo
>
> And here's a clip from the film:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSge1vvNlOw&feature=related

I'm not much into that "ghetto lifestyle" thing, sorry.

- MG

[VAXman-]

Back in the pseudo-18th Century again. :(

The noreaster which hit southern coastal proNJ dumped more than a foot of
very heavy wet snow here in my home of Jackson NJ. After a week without
power and communications in the aftermath of Sandy, we are again sitting
in the dark and FREAKIN' COLD without electricity. Communications, phone
and internet, were restored this morning but the power is still out. No
cable TV service yet which doesn't bother me as there's absolutely nothing
but shit on the 1000+ channels it offers but it has my family pining for
for their video-stupidity fix. My brat just don't seem to appreciate the
complete Monty Python Flying Circus DVDs. It's too intelligent for proNJ
educated kids. ;)

The generator is certainly getting its use. Today was an odd number day,
so I was able to get gasoline for it. I had to travel several miles from
home to find gas but I did get my cans refilled, so the generor can keep
running until JCP&L can get off of their collective unionized, coffee-sip-
ping, extended-break-taking keisters and get the power restored. It looks
like that'll be middle of next week from current reports. The house temp
hit 46degF last night despite boiling several large pots of water to help
boost the interior temp. Thankfully, the weather is to be getting warmer
over the next few days. Despite the cold, I'm still wearing my shorts and
sandels! Even while shovelling that heart-attack snow!

If only VMS could run without electricity! :)

[Dirk Munk]

What kind of heating do you have in your house? I suppose if you have a
gas or oil boiler you should be able to get the heating system working
with just a little bit of electric power from your generator.

[JF Mezei]

On 12-11-09 14:48, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> Back in the pseudo-18th Century again. :(

Weren't you born a pennsylvania farm boy ? That has to mean you were
close to the Amish an would know insitinctively how to live without
electricity :-)

> The noreaster which hit southern coastal proNJ dumped more than a foot of
> very heavy wet snow here in my home of Jackson NJ.

Merry Christmas !

> in the dark and FREAKIN' COLD without electricity.

What sort of heating system do you have ? Would the generator be able to
power it for an hour while it heats up the house ?

Some generators now provide water in and out. You circulate water to
cooll the gen, and use the hot water to heat your house.

> The generator is certainly getting its use. Today was an odd number day,
> so I was able to get gasoline for it.

So you admit to being odd ? :-)

I would definitly be an edge case because I don't have a car, so if I
rode my bike to the gas station to get fuel for a generator, how would
they handle me ?

Good luck going through this patch without power. Back in 1998, I lived
9 days without any power in january. Spend the days fetching wood from
city and feeding the fireplace and using my camping stove to cook meals.

> over the next few days. Despite the cold, I'm still wearing my shorts and
> sandels! Even while shovelling that heart-attack snow!

Isn't the snow going to melt with warmer weather ?

i am susprised the noreaster caused damage. you'd think Sandy would have
brought down any branches that were likely to fall on power lines.

[VAXman-]

In article <afbbf$509e040d$5ed43c14$16...@cache90.multikabel.net>, Dirk Munk <mu...@home.nl> writes:

>What kind of heating do you have in your house? I suppose if you have a
>gas or oil boiler you should be able to get the heating system working
>with just a little bit of electric power from your generator.

My home's heating is a Natural Gas FHA (forced hot air) furnace system which
requires electricity for its air recirculation blower. The furnace is hard-
wired into the home electrical system. My generator is a heavy-duty 6 kWatt
portable unit: http://www.championpowerequipment.com/generators/41311/ The
house is not *yet* wired to allow this generator to server as a whole- house
unit. I intend to rectify that in coming weeks.

[VAXman-]

In article <509e1612$0$37019$c3e8da3$f017...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> writes:
>On 12-11-09 14:48, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

>> Back in the pseudo-18th Century again. :(
>
>

>Weren't you born a pennsylvania farm boy ? That has to mean you were
>close to the Amish an would know insitinctively how to live without
>electricity :-)

Yeah, this "PA farm boy" didn't have any problem solving issues resulting
from the lack of electricity, save for running my VMS systems and internet
access. ;)

During Sandy, we made candles from some old candles that had burned down.
Heated the house by baking meals in the gas stove, and by boiling pots of
water and then, relocating them to bedrooms for heat. It's the city folk
who are/were complaining the loudest. Some didn't realize that gas stoves
still work without electricity. Turn on the gas and ignite the burner with
a match. Sheesh. One complained about not having coffee in the morning.
I simply boiled water in the stove top kettle and then poured it over the
grounds in the basket of the electric drip coffee maker. City folks seem
dumber than a box of rocks. No insult intended if your are a boxed rock.

>> The noreaster which hit southern coastal proNJ dumped more than a foot of
>> very heavy wet snow here in my home of Jackson NJ.
>

>Merry Christmas !

>
>> in the dark and FREAKIN' COLD without electricity.
>

>What sort of heating system do you have ? Would the generator be able to
>power it for an hour while it heats up the house ?

Natural Gas Forced Hot Air which needs electricty for the air recirulation
blower. It's hard-wired into the home electric system, so it's not readily
situated to be connected to a portable power generator. I intend to remedy
that quickly. ;)

>Some generators now provide water in and out. You circulate water to
>cooll the gen, and use the hot water to heat your house.
>
>
>

>> The generator is certainly getting its use. Today was an odd number day,
>> so I was able to get gasoline for it.
>

>So you admit to being odd ? :-)

No, the vehicle tag's number is odd.

>I would definitly be an edge case because I don't have a car, so if I
>rode my bike to the gas station to get fuel for a generator, how would
>they handle me ?

Dunno. I don't believe they'd turn away a walkup with a gas can but I
think you'd find it difficult to peddle and drive your bike holding onto
a 5 gallon gas can at 30+ lbs. (~14kg) Not to mention having to peddle
to gawd knows where to find a station that is pumping.

>Good luck going through this patch without power. Back in 1998, I lived
>9 days without any power in january. Spend the days fetching wood from
>city and feeding the fireplace and using my camping stove to cook meals.

Yeah, a fireplace would be nice but there's none in my home.

>> over the next few days. Despite the cold, I'm still wearing my shorts and
>> sandels! Even while shovelling that heart-attack snow!
>

>Isn't the snow going to melt with warmer weather ?

That's how it usually works. I still have to, legally, clear my driveway,
sidewalks and egress pathways.

>i am susprised the noreaster caused damage. you'd think Sandy would have
>brought down any branches that were likely to fall on power lines.

You under-estimate the fury of these noreaster storms. While Sandy was the
worst storm I've ever experienced here on the NJ shore, several noreasters
I've witnessed where not trifle storms; this most recent, in the aftermath
of hurricane Sandy, was a very significant storm too!

[Phillip Helbig---undress to reply]

In article <00ACA295...@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman-

@SendSpamHere.ORG writes:

> My home's heating is a Natural Gas FHA (forced hot air) furnace system which
> requires electricity for its air recirculation blower. The furnace is hard-
> wired into the home electrical system. My generator is a heavy-duty 6 kWatt
> portable unit: http://www.championpowerequipment.com/generators/41311/ The
> house is not *yet* wired to allow this generator to server as a whole- house
> unit. I intend to rectify that in coming weeks.

Pun intended?

[VAXman-]

Where's the pun???

[Paul Sture]

In article <00ACA29D...@SendSpamHere.ORG>,

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> In article <k7lfrj$uqn$6...@online.de>, hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip
> Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
> >In article <00ACA295...@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman-
> >@SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> >
> >> My home's heating is a Natural Gas FHA (forced hot air) furnace system
> >> which
> >> requires electricity for its air recirculation blower. The furnace is
> >> hard-
> >> wired into the home electrical system. My generator is a heavy-duty 6
> >> kWatt
> >> portable unit: http://www.championpowerequipment.com/generators/41311/
> >> The
> >> house is not *yet* wired to allow this generator to server as a whole-
> >> house
> >> unit. I intend to rectify that in coming weeks.
> >
> >Pun intended?
>
> Where's the pun???

Rectify?

--
Paul Sture

[Paul Sture]

In article <00ACA299...@SendSpamHere.ORG>,

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> Yeah, this "PA farm boy" didn't have any problem solving issues resulting
> from the lack of electricity, save for running my VMS systems and internet
> access. ;)
>
> During Sandy, we made candles from some old candles that had burned down.
> Heated the house by baking meals in the gas stove, and by boiling pots of
> water and then, relocating them to bedrooms for heat. It's the city folk
> who are/were complaining the loudest. Some didn't realize that gas stoves
> still work without electricity. Turn on the gas and ignite the burner with
> a match. Sheesh. One complained about not having coffee in the morning.
> I simply boiled water in the stove top kettle and then poured it over the
> grounds in the basket of the electric drip coffee maker. City folks seem
> dumber than a box of rocks. No insult intended if your are a boxed rock.

:-)

For those who don't have gas stoves, a camping stove is a useful spare
in the event of power cuts.

--
Paul Sture

[David Froble]

What I did was to have a 220 breaker in the panel that I could connect
the generator to. First turn off the main breaker to break the
connection to the outside, you don't want to try to power the whole
neighborhood, nor fry people working on the lines. Got a wire from the
special breaker, with a plug on the end. Just run a cable from
generator to this plug when required.

NOTE! You need to use 220, to power both rails, and the cable and such
need to be 3 wire, 2 hot and a ground.

If you don't understand all this, definitely get some help.

Also note, this is for emergencies, you cannot run everything, just as
much as your generator can handle. A few lights, and the furnace maybe.
Electric stove and such is probably too much.

[Bill Gunshannon]

In article <nospam-336625....@news.chingola.ch>,

And, sadly, on this side of the pond, the use of these in closed in spaces
like houses and apartments have resulted innumerous deaths from both fires
and Carbon Monoxide poisoning. They are intended for use in open, well
ventilated areas.

bill

--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>

[Bill Gunshannon]

In article <00ACA29D...@sendspamhere.org>,

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
> In article <k7lfrj$uqn$6...@online.de>, hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
>>In article <00ACA295...@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman-
>>@SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>>
>>> My home's heating is a Natural Gas FHA (forced hot air) furnace system which
>>> requires electricity for its air recirculation blower. The furnace is hard-
>>> wired into the home electrical system. My generator is a heavy-duty 6 kWatt
>>> portable unit: http://www.championpowerequipment.com/generators/41311/ The
>>> house is not *yet* wired to allow this generator to server as a whole- house
>>> unit. I intend to rectify that in coming weeks.
>>
>>Pun intended?
>
> Where's the pun???

Very subtle... Electricity - Rectify.... :-)

[VAXman-]

In article <nospam-05F1A3....@news.chingola.ch>, Paul Sture <nos...@sture.ch> writes:
>In article <00ACA29D...@SendSpamHere.ORG>,
> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>

>> In article <k7lfrj$uqn$6...@online.de>, hel...@astro.multiCLOTHESvax.de (Phillip
>> Helbig---undress to reply) writes:
>> >In article <00ACA295...@SendSpamHere.ORG>, VAXman-
>> >@SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>> >
>> >> My home's heating is a Natural Gas FHA (forced hot air) furnace system
>> >> which
>> >> requires electricity for its air recirculation blower. The furnace is
>> >> hard-
>> >> wired into the home electrical system. My generator is a heavy-duty 6
>> >> kWatt
>> >> portable unit: http://www.championpowerequipment.com/generators/41311/
>> >> The
>> >> house is not *yet* wired to allow this generator to server as a whole-
>> >> house
>> >> unit. I intend to rectify that in coming weeks.
>> >
>> >Pun intended?
>>
>> Where's the pun???
>

>Rectify?

I still don't get it unless you in Europe have stupidly switched over to DC
current; that's not the case here.

[VAXman-]

In article <k7lt39$382$1...@dont-email.me>, David Froble <da...@tsoft-inc.com> writes:

>What I did was to have a 220 breaker in the panel that I could connect
>the generator to. First turn off the main breaker to break the
>connection to the outside, you don't want to try to power the whole
>neighborhood, nor fry people working on the lines. Got a wire from the
>special breaker, with a plug on the end. Just run a cable from
>generator to this plug when required.
>
>NOTE! You need to use 220, to power both rails, and the cable and such
>need to be 3 wire, 2 hot and a ground.
>
>If you don't understand all this, definitely get some help.

Then you don't. ;) It's 240Vac, split neutral. 4 wires: 2 hot, 1 neutral
and ground. My generator has an L14-30 outlet for this purpose and should
supply the entire generator's output to the load.

>Also note, this is for emergencies, you cannot run everything, just as
>much as your generator can handle. A few lights, and the furnace maybe.
> Electric stove and such is probably too much.

Because I have Natural Gas, I don't have many of the other heavy electric
load appliances that all-electric homes have such as electric stoves and
electric clothes-driers. A refrigerator, freezer and the blower motor of
the FHA heater are the heaviest consumers.

[Paul Sture]

In article <ag7ccs...@mid.individual.net>,

bill...@cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) wrote:

> In article <nospam-336625....@news.chingola.ch>,
> Paul Sture <nos...@sture.ch> writes:
> > In article <00ACA299...@SendSpamHere.ORG>,
> > VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> >
> >> Yeah, this "PA farm boy" didn't have any problem solving issues resulting
> >> from the lack of electricity, save for running my VMS systems and internet
> >> access. ;)
> >>
> >> During Sandy, we made candles from some old candles that had burned down.
> >> Heated the house by baking meals in the gas stove, and by boiling pots of
> >> water and then, relocating them to bedrooms for heat. It's the city folk
> >> who are/were complaining the loudest. Some didn't realize that gas stoves
> >> still work without electricity. Turn on the gas and ignite the burner with
> >> a match. Sheesh. One complained about not having coffee in the morning.
> >> I simply boiled water in the stove top kettle and then poured it over the
> >> grounds in the basket of the electric drip coffee maker. City folks seem
> >> dumber than a box of rocks. No insult intended if your are a boxed rock.
> >
> >:-)
> >
> > For those who don't have gas stoves, a camping stove is a useful spare
> > in the event of power cuts.
>
> And, sadly, on this side of the pond, the use of these in closed in spaces
> like houses and apartments have resulted innumerous deaths from both fires
> and Carbon Monoxide poisoning. They are intended for use in open, well
> ventilated areas.

Good catch Bill, I was thinking of them in the context of the draughty
houses we used to have in the UK.

On that note I found that when my first house got fully snowed in, the
natural gas oven in my kitchen would make me catch my breath when left
on too long because the normal kitchen vents got sealed by snow. Not a
good idea to use it without outside ventilation.

This is also a problem for car drivers who get stuck in snowy
conditions. An ex-colleague lived in an area which consistently got
heavy snow each year, and every year there were a few deaths of stranded
motorists who would were fine running engines to keep warm until the
level of snow covered the exhaust pipe, but after that got poisoned.

--
Paul Sture

[Paul Sture]

In article <00ACA2BC...@SendSpamHere.ORG>,

It was the only electrical reference I could see that could have been a
pun.

Ohm, sorry. I am shocked you didn't make the connection. Ah, Watt the
heck...

:-)

--
Paul Sture

[JF Mezei]

On 12-11-10 06:32, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> My home's heating is a Natural Gas FHA (forced hot air) furnace system which
> requires electricity for its air recirculation blower. The furnace is hard-
> wired into the home electrical system.

Should not be hard to add a power plug on the side of furnace. Turn off
the breaker that feeds the furnace, plug in the generator, and you can
run your furnace off the generator for an hour or two to warm up the
house and then move generator over to other duties.

[JF Mezei]

>> wired into the home electrical system. My generator is a heavy-duty 6 kWatt
>> portable unit: http://www.championpowerequipment.com/generators/41311/

During the ice storm of '98, many people who had generators found out
the hard way that their generators had not been designed for continuous
duty. One farmer lost his herd of cows in the barn when the generator
quit during the night, depriving the cows of fresh air and they axphiciated.

You may wish to find out how many hours it can run between
maintenance/cleaning.

[JF Mezei]

>>NOTE! You need to use 220, to power both rails, and the cable and such
>>need to be 3 wire, 2 hot and a ground.

If your generator supplies 220/240 vac out of 2 wires, you can power
individual 220vac units but you can't plug it into the house unless you
have a gizmo that converts +240,neutral into -110,neutral,+110

Forgetting regulations for a minute, you could take your 110vac output
from generator and plug it into each rail of the house. It would make a
+110,neutral,+110 system. Each individual device wouldn'T know the
difference, but 220vac devices would see 0 volts since both leads would
be at +110.

Obviously, you'd have to be mighty careful not to re-energize the house
from the mains before detaching the wiring which connects both rails
together.

[David Froble]

Get into your circuit breaker box and tell me where both the ground and
neutral connect. Then tell me whether or not I understand it.

[David Froble]

Perhaps wiring isn't the same everywhere.

Where I'm at, 220, 240, whatever you want to call it, is actually 2 hot
wires, each at 110-120 volts, and a neutral. Neutral and ground are
pretty much the same thing. They both connect to the ground bus in the
circuit breaker panel, and the two long copper rods in the ground
connect to the same bus.

So if you got a 220 outlet, it's got the 2 hot wires, a neutral, and
maybe also a ground. But the neutral and the ground are the same thing,
and at places are connected together.

The reason you run a ground wire in your house is because you never
trust the electric companies ground / neutral. There could be feedback
somewhere which you don't want any part of.

[VAXman-]

In article <509ed216$0$54411$c3e8da3$6901...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> writes:
>
>>>NOTE! You need to use 220, to power both rails, and the cable and such
>>>need to be 3 wire, 2 hot and a ground.
>

>If your generator supplies 220/240 vac out of 2 wires, you can power
>individual 220vac units but you can't plug it into the house unless you
>have a gizmo that converts +240,neutral into -110,neutral,+110
>
>Forgetting regulations for a minute, you could take your 110vac output
>from generator and plug it into each rail of the house. It would make a
>+110,neutral,+110 system. Each individual device wouldn'T know the
>difference, but 220vac devices would see 0 volts since both leads would
>be at +110.
>
>Obviously, you'd have to be mighty careful not to re-energize the house
>from the mains before detaching the wiring which connects both rails
>together.

You guys don't understand the 208Vac 3-phase distribution system in NA.

[VAXman-]

>Get into your circuit breaker box and tell me where both the ground and
>neutral connect. Then tell me whether or not I understand it.

The neutral and ground are wired together AT THE BOX. The neutral is NOT
at ground potential and should not assume to be at ground potential. Have
you never heard the term "floating ground?"

[John E. Malmberg]

On 11/10/2012 6:11 PM, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <509ed216$0$54411$c3e8da3$6901...@news.astraweb.com>, JF
Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> writes:

The NEC or Canadian equivalent requires a special generator switchover
panel that does not allow the mains to ever be energized by the generator.

With such a switchover panel the generator that Vaxman posted a link to
can be used for both 240 and 110 volt circuits in the house.

For a retro-fit, putting in one of these panels and then turning off the
breakers of the circuits that you do not need is probably the cheapest
thing to do.

For new construction, you can put all the critical circuits on their own
breaker panel that can optionally fed by the generator.

A more expensive system would be fed by natural gas and have an
automatic switch over. At least one house in our neighborhood has one
of these systems. The owner of that house is an electrician, so he got
better prices than others could.

Regards,
-John
Personal Opinion Only

[George Cook]

Maybe you know this already: Your 120V loads should be spread evenly
across the two 120V legs because only half of the generator output
is available on each leg. In the case of 240V loads, the full output
is available across the legs (aka hots).

> Get into your circuit breaker box and tell me where both the ground and
> neutral connect. Then tell me whether or not I understand it.

When I wired mine in, the equipment ground and ground (known
incorrectly as neutral in the case of US house wiring) had separate
connecting points (ground bars) because I connected thru a sub-panel
(i.e., not the service entrance panel aka the main breaker box). The
equipment ground and ground are only connected together at the service
entrance. It is a serious error to connect (bond) them together at
any other location.

Far too many house fires are caused by people thinking they knew what
they were doing.

>>> Also note, this is for emergencies, you cannot run everything, just as
>>> much as your generator can handle. A few lights, and the furnace maybe.
>>> Electric stove and such is probably too much.
>>
>> Because I have Natural Gas, I don't have many of the other heavy electric
>> load appliances that all-electric homes have such as electric stoves and
>> electric clothes-driers. A refrigerator, freezer and the blower motor of
>> the FHA heater are the heaviest consumers.

I'd keep the refrigerator and freezer spread across the legs, given
that compressors can draw a lot (one of the reasons that generators
have surge ratings) when starting.


George

[George Cook]

In article <k7mlja$t6p$1...@dont-email.me>, David Froble <da...@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
> JF Mezei wrote:
>>>> NOTE! You need to use 220, to power both rails, and the cable and such
>>>> need to be 3 wire, 2 hot and a ground.
>>
>> If your generator supplies 220/240 vac out of 2 wires, you can power
>> individual 220vac units but you can't plug it into the house unless you
>> have a gizmo that converts +240,neutral into -110,neutral,+110
>>
>> Forgetting regulations for a minute, you could take your 110vac output
>> from generator and plug it into each rail of the house. It would make a
>> +110,neutral,+110 system. Each individual device wouldn'T know the
>> difference, but 220vac devices would see 0 volts since both leads would
>> be at +110.
>>
>> Obviously, you'd have to be mighty careful not to re-energize the house
>> from the mains before detaching the wiring which connects both rails
>> together.
>>
>>
>
> Perhaps wiring isn't the same everywhere.
>
> Where I'm at, 220, 240, whatever you want to call it, is actually 2 hot
> wires, each at 110-120 volts, and a neutral. Neutral and ground are
> pretty much the same thing. They both connect to the ground bus in the
> circuit breaker panel, and the two long copper rods in the ground
> connect to the same bus.
>
> So if you got a 220 outlet, it's got the 2 hot wires, a neutral, and
> maybe also a ground. But the neutral and the ground are the same thing,
> and at places are connected together.

No, they are not the same and must be connected together in your
house at one and only one place (there are exceptions, but if I
recall correctly, none of them apply to typical house wiring).
The equipment grounding conductor (aka safety ground or green or
bare wire) is used for exactly what its name implies, whereas
the grounded conductor (aka white or neutral) is used as a current
return path in a grounded electrical system.

> The reason you run a ground wire in your house is because you never
> trust the electric companies ground / neutral. There could be feedback
> somewhere which you don't want any part of.

You run equipment grounds in a house mainly to prevent electrocutions.


George

[JF Mezei]

On 12-11-10 19:14, VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> The neutral and ground are wired together AT THE BOX.

Where I used to live, house ground was wired to to the copper water pipe
coming into the house. Neutral came from the telephone pole, and I
assume that neutral was "grounded" at the pole holding the transformer
which could be some distance away.

[JF Mezei]

On 12-11-10 17:48, David Froble wrote:

> Where I'm at, 220, 240, whatever you want to call it, is actually 2 hot
> wires, each at 110-120 volts, and a neutral. Neutral and ground are
> pretty much the same thing.

Ground and neutral are not the same. While both do connect to the earth,
they connect at different places and can/do provide different potential.

You can measure a fair voltage difference between ground and neutral.
(but little current).

I suspect that during a power failure, you might be able to run LEDs off
ground and neutral. I'll have to test that !

[JF Mezei]

On 12-11-10 21:55, George Cook wrote:

> No, they are not the same and must be connected together in your
> house at one and only one place (there are exceptions, but if I
> recall correctly, none of them apply to typical house wiring).

If you have 5 homes on a transformer, this would mean that the "neutral"
is grounded at 5 different places with 5 different ground potential
which would result in current constantly flowing on the neutral because
of voltage difference in the different grounds.

I was under the impression that the neutral was grounded only at the
transformer site, and that each home had its own ground to channel any
undesirable current in failed components (and lightning protection MMOVs)

[Dirk Munk]

That is the way it is in most European countries as well. It is my
understanding that in the US you have a two phase system for house
connections. The two phases are 180 degrees shifted from each other, so
you get 120V between each phase and neutral, and 240V between the
phases. In Europe we have a three phase system, 230V between each phase
and neutral, and 400V between the phases. Neutral is connected to ground
at the transformer. The reason is to prevent the whole system from
floating respective to ground. Otherwise you might get 1000V from
neutral to ground and 1120V from live to ground, not what you want.
Ground should be connected to a copper pin driven deep into the ground.
If you would connect neutral to ground at your house, you would indeed
get currents flowing through neutral to the ground because the ground
potential is different and the transformer and your house. Those
currents could become quite high too, not what you want to happen.

[Phillip Helbig---undress to reply]

In article <nospam-88740E....@news.chingola.ch>, Paul Sture

<nos...@sture.ch> writes:

> > >> >> unit. I intend to rectify that in coming weeks.
> > >> >
> > >> >Pun intended?
> > >>
> > >> Where's the pun???
> > >
> > >Rectify?
> >
> > I still don't get it unless you in Europe have stupidly switched over to DC
> > current; that's not the case here.
>

> It was the only electrical reference I could see that could have been a
> pun.
>
> Ohm, sorry. I am shocked you didn't make the connection. Ah, Watt the
> heck...

Right, VAXman is too smart to get the pun. :-) For those for whom it
was too subtle, we'll have to AMPlify it. Of course, too many puns in
the newsgroup might cause a reVOLT. No reason to get CHARGEd up,
though. Did Sandy hit DC as well? I'm not completely up-to-date on
CURRENT events. I guess that about exhausts my CAPACITY for puns; I
can't GENERATE any more. Sorry for the PUNishment, but don't accuse me
of assault and BATTERY.

[JF Mezei]

On 12-11-11 05:02, Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote:

> Right, VAXman is too smart to get the pun. :-) For those for whom it
> was too subtle, we'll have to AMPlify it. Of course, too many puns in
> the newsgroup might cause a reVOLT. No reason to get CHARGEd up,
> though. Did Sandy hit DC as well? I'm not completely up-to-date on
> CURRENT events. I guess that about exhausts my CAPACITY for puns; I
> can't GENERATE any more. Sorry for the PUNishment, but don't accuse me
> of assault and BATTERY.

Your POTENTIAL for puns has been drained :-)

[George Cook]

JF, this type of non-fact based impressions is what gets people
needlessly killed. First, there is no such thing as a "neutral"
in typical US house wiring. Second, the grounded electrical system
for a house starts at the service entrance and has zero relationship
to the other houses on the same transformer (unless the transformer
is overloaded). Unless someone who uses non-fact based impressions
has done the wiring, each individual house has a single point where
the earth ground (e.g. ground electrodes and cold water pipes) is
bonded to the grounded and grounding wires. If you think otherwise,
then you need to read NEC section 250, which I advise against because
that section is known to cause massive brain cell death.


George

[Bill Gunshannon]

In article <509f4194$0$11368$c3e8da3$5077...@news.astraweb.com>,

JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> writes:
> On 12-11-10 17:48, David Froble wrote:
>
>> Where I'm at, 220, 240, whatever you want to call it, is actually 2 hot
>> wires, each at 110-120 volts, and a neutral. Neutral and ground are
>> pretty much the same thing.
>
>
> Ground and neutral are not the same. While both do connect to the earth,
> they connect at different places and can/do provide different potential.

JF, as one who has been doing house (and commercial) electrical wiring
for decades I have to say you are just plain wrong. The ground lug and
the neutral wire both connect to the same buss bar in the breaker box.

And I seriously doubt that it is different in Canada.

>
> You can measure a fair voltage difference between ground and neutral.
> (but little current).
>
> I suspect that during a power failure, you might be able to run LEDs off
> ground and neutral. I'll have to test that !

[Bill Gunshannon]

In article <509f4219$0$11368$c3e8da3$5077...@news.astraweb.com>,

That may well be, but they are still tied together at the breaker box.
Go down the basement and have a look.

And we will not even go into how unlikely it is that you have copper
coming into the house from outside.

[Michael Moroney]

David Froble <da...@tsoft-inc.com> writes:

>What I did was to have a 220 breaker in the panel that I could connect
>the generator to. First turn off the main breaker to break the
>connection to the outside, you don't want to try to power the whole
>neighborhood, nor fry people working on the lines. Got a wire from the
>special breaker, with a plug on the end. Just run a cable from
>generator to this plug when required.

This can be dangerous and is illegal in many areas. One mistake (main
breaker left on) means that your generator will attempt to backfeed
the system. 99% of the time it will appear as a dead short to the
generator and will trip a breaker, but 1% of the time there's a break
somewhere where it won't (remember, wires are broken and down) and
there's always a chance a backfed transformer may electrocute the very
guy trying to restore your power. Remember, the pole pigs work backwards,
too.

Linemen do have safety procedures to prevent this, of course. Supposedly
when they do detect this situation, they'll often deliberately leave the
house doing it for last, and take their sweet time getting around to it.

[Michael Moroney]

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:

>In article <509ed216$0$54411$c3e8da3$6901...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> writes:
>>
>>>>NOTE! You need to use 220, to power both rails, and the cable and such
>>>>need to be 3 wire, 2 hot and a ground.
>>
>>If your generator supplies 220/240 vac out of 2 wires, you can power
>>individual 220vac units but you can't plug it into the house unless you
>>have a gizmo that converts +240,neutral into -110,neutral,+110
>>
>>Forgetting regulations for a minute, you could take your 110vac output
>>from generator and plug it into each rail of the house. It would make a
>>+110,neutral,+110 system. Each individual device wouldn'T know the
>>difference, but 220vac devices would see 0 volts since both leads would
>>be at +110.
>>
>>Obviously, you'd have to be mighty careful not to re-energize the house
>>from the mains before detaching the wiring which connects both rails
>>together.

>You guys don't understand the 208Vac 3-phase distribution system in NA.

Actually what he doesn't understand is the 120V/240V single phase Edison
system that powers 99% of the houses in North America.

Houses are fed by a center tapped 240V transformer. 3 wires, two "hots"
and the center tap. The center tap, called the neutral, is grounded at the
service entrance. Half of the 120V devices are connected from one "hot" of
the transformer to neutral, the other half are connected from the other
side of the transformer to neutral. 240V devices are connected to the two
"hot" legs.

The 120V/208V three phase system is used for commercial and small
industrial services, not for homes.

The National Electric Code states that the neutral and ground are
connected together at only one spot, at the service entrance. It is
true that if multiple houses are fed from the same transformer the
system (grounded at each house, plus at the transformer) is grounded at
multiple places, but the electrical distribution network follows a
different set of rules.

[VAXman-]

In article <k7ok69$tkr$1...@pcls6.std.com>, mor...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) writes:
>David Froble <da...@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
>
>>What I did was to have a 220 breaker in the panel that I could connect
>>the generator to. First turn off the main breaker to break the
>>connection to the outside, you don't want to try to power the whole
>>neighborhood, nor fry people working on the lines. Got a wire from the
>>special breaker, with a plug on the end. Just run a cable from
>>generator to this plug when required.
>
>This can be dangerous and is illegal in many areas. One mistake (main
>breaker left on) means that your generator will attempt to backfeed
>the system. 99% of the time it will appear as a dead short to the
>generator and will trip a breaker, but 1% of the time there's a break
>somewhere where it won't (remember, wires are broken and down) and
>there's always a chance a backfed transformer may electrocute the very
>guy trying to restore your power. Remember, the pole pigs work backwards,
>too.

So, I shouldn't install this?

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200196674_200196674

>Linemen do have safety procedures to prevent this, of course. Supposedly
>when they do detect this situation, they'll often deliberately leave the
>house doing it for last, and take their sweet time getting around to it.

That's must be the case with the 100K customers still without power on LI
whose electric company is an "Authority."

[Michael Moroney]

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:

>In article <k7ok69$tkr$1...@pcls6.std.com>, mor...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) writes:
>>David Froble <da...@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
>>
>>>What I did was to have a 220 breaker in the panel that I could connect
>>>the generator to. First turn off the main breaker to break the
>>>connection to the outside, you don't want to try to power the whole
>>>neighborhood, nor fry people working on the lines. Got a wire from the
>>>special breaker, with a plug on the end. Just run a cable from
>>>generator to this plug when required.
>>
>>This can be dangerous and is illegal in many areas. One mistake (main
>>breaker left on) means that your generator will attempt to backfeed
>>the system. 99% of the time it will appear as a dead short to the
>>generator and will trip a breaker, but 1% of the time there's a break
>>somewhere where it won't (remember, wires are broken and down) and
>>there's always a chance a backfed transformer may electrocute the very
>>guy trying to restore your power. Remember, the pole pigs work backwards,
>>too.

>So, I shouldn't install this?

>http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200196674_200196674

Things like that are what you need. They are designed to prevent
connection between a generator and the utility power source, and therefore
prevents zapping linemen (and restoration of the utility power from
frying your generator, too)

Get that, looks like it's on sale, too.

[Michael Moroney]

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:

>>Linemen do have safety procedures to prevent this, of course. Supposedly
>>when they do detect this situation, they'll often deliberately leave the
>>house doing it for last, and take their sweet time getting around to it.

>That's must be the case with the 100K customers still without power on LI
>whose electric company is an "Authority."

Some utilities are just incompetent when dealing with emergencies.
During our Ice Storm of 2007, my utility made national news with their
incompetence in restoring power.

I'll withhold judgement on LILCO as I don't know how much is just being
overwhelmed and how much is incompetence.

[VAXman-]

In article <k7oqmu$mje$1...@pcls6.std.com>, mor...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) writes:

>VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG writes:
>
>>In article <k7ok69$tkr$1...@pcls6.std.com>, mor...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) writes:
>>>David Froble <da...@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
>>>
>>>>What I did was to have a 220 breaker in the panel that I could connect
>>>>the generator to. First turn off the main breaker to break the
>>>>connection to the outside, you don't want to try to power the whole
>>>>neighborhood, nor fry people working on the lines. Got a wire from the
>>>>special breaker, with a plug on the end. Just run a cable from
>>>>generator to this plug when required.
>>>
>>>This can be dangerous and is illegal in many areas. One mistake (main
>>>breaker left on) means that your generator will attempt to backfeed
>>>the system. 99% of the time it will appear as a dead short to the
>>>generator and will trip a breaker, but 1% of the time there's a break
>>>somewhere where it won't (remember, wires are broken and down) and
>>>there's always a chance a backfed transformer may electrocute the very
>>>guy trying to restore your power. Remember, the pole pigs work backwards,
>>>too.
>
>>So, I shouldn't install this?
>
>>http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200196674_200196674
>

>Things like that are what you need. They are designed to prevent
>connection between a generator and the utility power source, and therefore
>prevents zapping linemen (and restoration of the utility power from
>frying your generator, too)
>
>Get that, looks like it's on sale, too.

Already have; what I don't or didn't have was the time to install it.

[JF Mezei]

George Cook wrote:

> needlessly killed. First, there is no such thing as a "neutral"
> in typical US house wiring.

If the "whitw" wire comes from the ground at the house, then why do they
bother with having 3 wires between the transformer and the house ?
Shouldn't they only need 2 since the "neutral" is generated by the
house's own ground ?

[David Froble]

I do believe that you chopped out the admonition to first insure the
main breaker is off, and that you didn't want to endanger line workers.

I do agree that it's very important to not be sending power outside.
Permanent installations have a special fallover switch just for this.
rather expensive also. What I don't understand is your chopping out
what I wrote, then saying it again, perhaps to make me look like an idiot.

[Stephen Hoffman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_and_neutral


--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC

[David Froble]

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
> In article <k7ok69$tkr$1...@pcls6.std.com>, mor...@world.std.spaamtrap.com (Michael Moroney) writes:
>> David Froble <da...@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
>>
>>> What I did was to have a 220 breaker in the panel that I could connect
>>> the generator to. First turn off the main breaker to break the
>>> connection to the outside, you don't want to try to power the whole
>>> neighborhood, nor fry people working on the lines. Got a wire from the
>>> special breaker, with a plug on the end. Just run a cable from
>>> generator to this plug when required.
>> This can be dangerous and is illegal in many areas. One mistake (main
>> breaker left on) means that your generator will attempt to backfeed
>> the system. 99% of the time it will appear as a dead short to the
>> generator and will trip a breaker, but 1% of the time there's a break
>> somewhere where it won't (remember, wires are broken and down) and
>> there's always a chance a backfed transformer may electrocute the very
>> guy trying to restore your power. Remember, the pole pigs work backwards,
>> too.
>
> So, I shouldn't install this?
>
> http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200196674_200196674

That's $300. The descriptions aren't detailed enough for me to tell if
it's what you want. The following is only $100.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200196574_200196574

Basically, you're looking to do it the right way, a switch that feeds
from the utility or from local power (generator) but never both. It's
the same thing I wrote about, but safe. You cannot make a mistake, if
installed correctly.

Frankly, I'd check with a local electric supply house. Usually the
people there are knowledgable about what they sale, and Northern usually
isn't any cheaper, sometimes more expensive.

My place has several breakers right after the meter, on the pole. One
for the house, one for the garage and barn, and one for another
building. I can cut the power off before my circuit breaker panel main
breakers. Most houses aren't wired this way. They have power straight
from the meter to the main breaker in the panel.

If this is how your house is, then consider hiring an electrician. You
really don't want to get "lit up".

This gets sticky. If you have the utility turn off the power for any
reason, they usually require an "inspection" before they will turn it
back on. Then means paying someone to come out and look at your wiring,
and if there's anything they don't like you'll have to change it.

Regardless, I cannot stress enough, don't try to work on a live feed
from the meter.

A suggestion, if you get into it so deeply. Have a cutoff switch /
breaker installed after the meter. With such you can do your own work
without all the bullshit the electricians and utility put you through.
Assuming you remember your PA farm boy training.

On second thought, I've seen some of the shit some farmers have done.
Maybe forget the farm boy training ....

[David Froble]

I guess I should have been more precise. You run the local ground (the
2 copper rods in the ground) to your circuit breaker box, nowhere else.

[David Froble]

Every building, talking houses here, by code and common sense should
have at least two (20 ten (10) foot long copper rods driven into the
ground, at different locations, with only a couple inches sticking out.
These should be joined together, and connected to the ground in your
circuit breaker panel. This should (you hope) ground out any feedback
that might come over the wires. Or from inside.

Upon inspection, you'll see that the circuit breaker panel has a bus
with the local ground, the electric company ground, the electric company
neutral, and the neutral and ground of inside wires all connected to
this bus.

[JF Mezei]

On 12-11-11 16:33, David Froble wrote:

> A suggestion, if you get into it so deeply. Have a cutoff switch /
> breaker installed after the meter.

Can you have anything installed between the meter and the main breaker?

I would think that such a switch would be installed between the house
main breaker and the individual breakers. This allows your to power off
the system with the main breaker and work on that cutover switch if
necessary.

If you install anything upstream of the house main breaker, there is no
way for you to perform any work on it since you don't have the ability
to power down that portion of the line. A short on that portion blows
the utility's transformer.

[David Froble]

Good catch. I was referring solely to 2-phase power. Just didn't
consider 3-phase as it's not usually used, or available, in homes here.

I've got a tubing bender that requires 3-phase, and I had to install a
rotary converter to run it. No 3-phase available within several miles.

[David Froble]

This is not an authoratative answer. I'm not an electrician.

I believe the extra wire, called ground, is there to ground for example
the outside case of something using electricity. If the electricity
somehow, through freyed wires or such, got where it wasn't suppose to
be, this is to prevent you from getting a shock when you touch the
device. Also, if you have "ground fault" outlets, (again, I'm not an
electrician), I believe they shut off power if they detect power on the
"ground".

[JF Mezei]

On 12-11-11 16:43, David Froble wrote:

> Upon inspection, you'll see that the circuit breaker panel has a bus
> with the local ground, the electric company ground, the electric company
> neutral, and the neutral and ground of inside wires all connected to
> this bus.

I didn't test conductivity between neutral and ground where I used to
live. (now in an appartment so I dont have access to that stuff).

The house ground was connected to the breaker box itself. (as were the
grounds for all the circuits).

The neutral from the power company was on its own separate bar where all
the "whites" were connected.

I did not check the main breaker section of the panel. Perhaps in there
there was a very real connection between the utility neutral and the
house ground.

If neutral is really the house ground, why do they bother running 3
wires between the transformer and each house ? Couldn't they ground at
the transformer (which they do) and then run two wires to the homes and
then generate the "neutral" from the house ground ?

[David Froble]

VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

> In article <k7ml6n$pff$1...@dont-email.me>, David Froble <da...@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

>>> In article <k7lt39$382$1...@dont-email.me>, David Froble <da...@tsoft-inc.com> writes:
>>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:

>>>>> In article <afbbf$509e040d$5ed43c14$16...@cache90.multikabel.net>, Dirk Munk <mu...@home.nl> writes:
>>>>>> VAXman- @SendSpamHere.ORG wrote:
>>>>>>> Back in the pseudo-18th Century again. :(
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The noreaster which hit southern coastal proNJ dumped more than a foot of
>>>>>>> very heavy wet snow here in my home of Jackson NJ. After a week without
>>>>>>> power and communications in the aftermath of Sandy, we are again sitting
>>>>>>> in the dark and FREAKIN' COLD without electricity. Communications, phone
>>>>>>> and internet, were restored this morning but the power is still out. No
>>>>>>> cable TV service yet which doesn't bother me as there's absolutely nothing
>>>>>>> but shit on the 1000+ channels it offers but it has my family pining for
>>>>>>> for their video-stupidity fix. My brat just don't seem to appreciate the
>>>>>>> complete Monty Python Flying Circus DVDs. It's too intelligent for proNJ
>>>>>>> educated kids. ;)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The generator is certainly getting its use. Today was an odd number day,
>>>>>>> so I was able to get gasoline for it. I had to travel several miles from
>>>>>>> home to find gas but I did get my cans refilled, so the generor can keep
>>>>>>> running until JCP&L can get off of their collective unionized, coffee-sip-
>>>>>>> ping, extended-break-taking keisters and get the power restored. It looks
>>>>>>> like that'll be middle of next week from current reports. The house temp
>>>>>>> hit 46degF last night despite boiling several large pots of water to help
>>>>>>> boost the interior temp. Thankfully, the weather is to be getting warmer
>>>>>>> over the next few days. Despite the cold, I'm still wearing my shorts and
>>>>>>> sandels! Even while shovelling that heart-attack snow!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If only VMS could run without electricity! :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> What kind of heating do you have in your house? I suppose if you have a
>>>>>> gas or oil boiler you should be able to get the heating system working
>>>>>> with just a little bit of electric power from your generator.
>>>>> My home's heating is a Natural Gas FHA (forced hot air) furnace system which
>>>>> requires electricity for its air recirculation blower. The furnace is hard-
>>>>> wired into the home electrical system. My generator is a heavy-duty 6 kWatt
>>>>> portable unit: http://www.championpowerequipment.com/generators/41311/ The
>>>>> house is not *yet* wired to allow this generator to server as a whole- house

>>>>> unit. I intend to rectify that in coming weeks.
>>>>>

>>>> What I did was to have a 220 breaker in the panel that I could connect
>>>> the generator to. First turn off the main breaker to break the
>>>> connection to the outside, you don't want to try to power the whole
>>>> neighborhood, nor fry people working on the lines. Got a wire from the
>>>> special breaker, with a plug on the end. Just run a cable from
>>>> generator to this plug when required.
>>>>

>>>> NOTE! You need to use 220, to power both rails, and the cable and such
>>>> need to be 3 wire, 2 hot and a ground.
>>>>

>>>> If you don't understand all this, definitely get some help.
>>> Then you don't. ;) It's 240Vac, split neutral. 4 wires: 2 hot, 1 neutral
>>> and ground. My generator has an L14-30 outlet for this purpose and should
>>> supply the entire generator's output to the load.
>> Get into your circuit breaker box and tell me where both the ground and
>> neutral connect. Then tell me whether or not I understand it.
>
> The neutral and ground are wired together AT THE BOX. The neutral is NOT
> at ground potential and should not assume to be at ground potential. Have
> you never heard the term "floating ground?"
>

Yes, and I agree. Sometimes I don't explain things completely.

Also, I totally forgot about 3-phase, since most or all homes don't
normally have it. That really was a bad thing for me to do.

I probably should not have mentioned about how to hook up a generator
without a transfer switch. Yeah, I know about turning off the main
breaker, but if I wasn't around, and someone tried to connect it, things
could get bad. I rarely have done this, The required pieces are stored
where only I know what they are. If the power goes out for a few hours,
it's not a problem. If it's dark, I go to sleep. If it's not, and
weather permitting, I go flying.

My generator isn't for power outages. It's for throwing in the truck to
have power around the farm away from buildings.

[JF Mezei]

On 12-11-11 16:47, David Froble wrote:

> I've got a tubing bender that requires 3-phase, and I had to install a
> rotary converter to run it. No 3-phase available within several miles.

Aren't local distribution networks run on 3 phase power 25kv with the
transformers doing the 2 phase conversion down to +110/-110 ?

Since transformers normally feed just a handful of homes, 3 phase power
shouldn't be that far from you. Of course, the utility would have to
install a transformer to give you 3phase at the "normal" voltages (240v ?)

[David Froble]

Phillip Helbig---undress to reply wrote:

GROAN !!!

[Stephen Hoffman]

On 2012-11-11 21:43:18 +0000, JF Mezei said:

> On 12-11-11 16:33, David Froble wrote:
>
>> A suggestion, if you get into it so deeply. Have a cutoff switch /
>> breaker installed after the meter.
>
> Can you have anything installed between the meter and the main breaker?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_switch

[JF Mezei]

On 12-11-11 17:16, Stephen Hoffman wrote:

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_switch

Doesn't mention where that transfer switch is installed. So question
remains: Are transfer switches installed between the main house breaker
and the breaker box, or are they installed between the meter and the
main breaker box ?

[Paul Sture]

In article <k7p5h1$9ue$1...@dont-email.me>,

David Froble <da...@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:

> My place has several breakers right after the meter, on the pole. One
> for the house, one for the garage and barn, and one for another
> building. I can cut the power off before my circuit breaker panel main
> breakers. Most houses aren't wired this way. They have power straight
> from the meter to the main breaker in the panel.
>
> If this is how your house is, then consider hiring an electrician. You
> really don't want to get "lit up".
>
> This gets sticky. If you have the utility turn off the power for any
> reason, they usually require an "inspection" before they will turn it
> back on. Then means paying someone to come out and look at your wiring,
> and if there's anything they don't like you'll have to change it.
>
> Regardless, I cannot stress enough, don't try to work on a live feed
> from the meter.

I once had a power failure which turned out to be a bad contact between
the feed coming into the house and the meter. The guy who diagnosed and
fixed that wore the thickest pair of rubber gauntlets I have ever seen,
and they were both scorched and burned in places.

> A suggestion, if you get into it so deeply. Have a cutoff switch /
> breaker installed after the meter. With such you can do your own work
> without all the bullshit the electricians and utility put you through.
> Assuming you remember your PA farm boy training.
>
> On second thought, I've seen some of the shit some farmers have done.
> Maybe forget the farm boy training ....

Yep, I saw the distribution panel in the old farmhouse my neighbour
bought. His electrician point blank refused to work on that, and they
got the electricity company to do a new installation.

--
Paul Sture

[Stephen Hoffman]

Different implementations vary in where the generator is connected.
Key is that there is no path from the generator back to the grid.
http://www.gen-tran.com/content/support/installation_diagrams.asp
http://www.renovation-headquarters.com/generator-transfer-switch.htm

[George Cook]

In article <50a02246$0$60003$c3e8da3$b280...@news.astraweb.com>, JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> writes:
> On 12-11-11 16:47, David Froble wrote:
>
>> I've got a tubing bender that requires 3-phase, and I had to install a
>> rotary converter to run it. No 3-phase available within several miles.
>
> Aren't local distribution networks run on 3 phase power 25kv with the
> transformers doing the 2 phase conversion down to +110/-110 ?

You really need to spend some time with Wikipedia. Hoff has already
pointed you there at least once.

Except for out in the boonies and down side streets where sometimes
only a single high voltage phase is on the poles, there are usually
three high voltage phases. There is no 2 phase (something which
is very rare) involved. Each transformer is connected to a single
high voltage phase (i.e., it's a single phase transformer). As someone
else mentioned, the transformer is center tapped on the low voltage
(240V) side. That tap is connected to earth ground. There is no
+ or - in an AC power system.

> Since transformers normally feed just a handful of homes, 3 phase power
> shouldn't be that far from you. Of course, the utility would have to
> install a transformer to give you 3phase at the "normal" voltages (240v ?)

If he's on a back road, there may not be 3 phase on the pole. If
the utility did supply him 3 phase, it would most likely be 208/120V
deta with a grounded neutral.


George

[Michael Moroney]

Sorry, I don't intend to make anyone look like an idiot (unless they
happen to be an idiot). I did want to point out that that arrangement
(without a transfer switch) is illegal most places and one switch throw
from a possible tragedy. Not necessarily by the person who set the thing
up, either, who may very well know what he's doing. Imagine someone who
knows just enough to be dangerous investigating the breaker box: "Hey, no
wonder they think the power's out, the main is switched off!" <flick> <fry>