Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
IanMiller
http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/30th/index.html
and see Mark Hurd talk about VMS!!!
Post your own message at http://h71000.www7.hp.com/fb_30years.html
JF Mezei
> Visit
> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/30th/index.html
> and see Mark Hurd talk about VMS!!!
In normal companies, it would not be considered a special event to have
the CEO mention one of his products.
And since HP is intent on circumscribing its discussions to only the
remaining installed base, there is no rejoicing in having some clueless
CEO implicitely confirm they have no intentions of growing VMS, or
re-instating the engineering numbers needed to keep VMS moving forwards.
Since Ann Livermore is still in her position, despite having confirmed
in a major newspaper that Stallard's absolute blunder of May 7th 2002
was in fact corporate policy even in 2007, then one cannot but conclude
that Hurd agrees with this policy. (catering to installed base in the
hopes that they remain with HP when they drop VMS).
At least HP is now much more open about its policy of downsizing VMS out
of existance and moving the few key ISVs such as Cerner to other HP
products before VMS sinks.
When VMS engineers were stating that there were no plans to move VMS
beyond that IA64 contraption, perhaps they were sending a clear message
that VMS is now in a dead end and the end is coming soon when IA64 is
confirmed as a mature platform in a year or two.
My only hope is that the vast majority of those leaving VMS will not be
HP customers after VMS.
VAXman-
OpvnVMS is misspelled on that page! :roll:
--
VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
"Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"
Jan-Erik Söderholm
> When VMS engineers were stating that there were no
> plans to move VMS beyond that IA64...
As there wasn't any plans to move VMS beyond VAX when
*that* arhitecture was new.
Or beyond Alpha when that one was new. And so on.
Why whould there be ?
You know, you aren't even funny anymore, just boring...
Best Regards,
Jan-Erik.
Ken Robinson
Comments about the web site:
* The audio should not start immediately, or there should be a way to
stop it. Everytime you navigate back to the main page the video/audio
starts
* When you go to the "Future" tab, the site thinks you're on the
"Guestbook" tab and you can't get to the Guestbook.
* Using Flash, when not necessary is a waste. IMHO
* There's no link from the HP home page directly to this page.
Other than that, nice site.
Ken
Using Managing VMS almost 28 years (started in February, 1980. V2.0)
and counting.
Eberhard Heuser-Hofmann
Here's my contrib:
Do you remember that you want a VAX and VMS to run scientific programs?
The compilers still have the highest quality and the capabilities of the
debugger are great.
I'm running HPC applications on my OpenVMS systems:
Gaussian03 and Gamess (More will follow.).
Both generated from the actual code. I've found some bugs in the code that
is not been recognized under other platforms.
Script started on Do 25 Okt 2007 13:24:14 CEST
[root@vg3 checktst]# ./checktst
Please type the full directory containing exam??.log [.]:
/home/gamess/gamess/test_vms
Checking the results of your sample GAMESS calculations,
the output files (exam??.log) will be taken from
/home/gamess/gamess/test_vms
All jobs terminated normally, now checking detailed numerical results
exam01: Eerr=0,0e+00 Gerr=0,0e+00. Passed.
[snip] ....
exam42: Eerr=0,0e+00 Gerr=0,0e+00. Passed.
All 42 test results are correct!
[root@vg3 checktst]#
Script done on Do 25 Okt 2007 13:24:39 CEST
Eberhard
Syltrem
> In article <1193307403.9...@o38g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
> IanMiller <gx...@uk2.net> writes:
>>Visit
>>http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/30th/index.html
>>and see Mark Hurd talk about VMS!!!
>>
Clicking on View Complete Guestbook gives:
Page Not Found
The requested document
"http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/30th/guestbook.html" was not found on
this server.
And where do we see Mark Hurd ?
Syltrem
Bill Gunshannon
It's thursday, wouldn't that be the golf course?
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bi...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
Jan-Erik Söderholm
> And where do we see Mark Hurd ?
I'm not sure who "we" are but *I* see (and
hear him) under the "Introduction" tab...
Jan-Erik.
JF Mezei
> * Using Flash, when not necessary is a waste. IMHO
HP is a wintel company and they cater to wintel customers. They don't
even realise that many of their VMS customers would actually try to
access that page from a VMS workstation. Remember that within HP, VMS is
just a legacy server OS and nobody is expected to be using VMS on a
workstation.
> * There's no link from the HP home page directly to this page.
What did you expect ? Ann Livermore made it very clear this summer (in a
Computerworld interview) that Scott Stallard's original statements of
May 7th 2002 were not a mistake and that they really did represent
official HP policy since she pretty much re-iterated them 5 years later.
Since they are not interested in attracting new customers to VMS, there
is no need to steer eyeballs from the main HP web site to the VMS site.
You can't fault the VMS supporters within HP. They have been limited to
a pretty small sand box and not allowed to play outside of it. But at
one point, one must start to question whether it is worth prolonging
VMS's life when you know the owner has no interest in its growth/success
and just wants to migrate customers to other HP platforms.
Every year that VMS goes on with limited development resources, it will
start to lag other OS more and more and more. And eventually, due to
lack of modernised email software, it may even be unable to participate
in the internet because it will lack modern features require to bypass
spam filters.
Every year that VMS lags in development, it will just emphasise the
decline of VMS from its heydays as a market and technology leader to its
current status as a forgotten legacy OS.
Stallard/Livermore's message also made it clear that since they are
interested in moving VMS customers to other HP products, they aren't
about to sell VMS to someone willing to leverage the full potential of
this great OS.
When Compaq bought Digital, Pfeiffer gave us great hopes. Pfeiffer was
ousted and replaced by some incompetant twit who ended up screwing us
royally. HP has confirmed over the span of the 5 years they have owned
VMS that they have no interest in changing the course set by Palmer and
followed by Curly. Hurd had a chance to make "under new management"
significant changes for VMS, but he instead chose to allow Livermore to
tell Computerworld what Stallard had told us 5 years earlier.
When Titanic was sinking, they had musicians playing till the very end
to continue the appearance of a functioning luxury ship, but at one
point, the music stopped, the ship broke apart and sank very fast.
HP doesn't care about all the people who have bet their careers on VMS
and whose skills are now worthless and unmarketable, we're going down
with the ship and it won't affect any of their real customers on Wintel
and HP-UX. HP will give us a bit of music to appease us, and keep
telling us that the ship is unsinkable and to not worry about the rising
water. At one point, HP will make an announcement that the ship cannot
be recovered and will sink momentarily.
Syltrem
> HP doesn't care about all the people who have bet their careers on VMS and
> whose skills are now worthless and unmarketable, we're going down with the
> ship and it won't affect any of their real customers on Wintel and HP-UX.
> HP will give us a bit of music to appease us, and keep telling us that the
> ship is unsinkable and to not worry about the rising water. At one point,
> HP will make an announcement that the ship cannot be recovered and will
> sink momentarily.
I won't be able to attend the webcast tomorrow.
Can someone ask Martin Fink (at the webcast) why there's not a link on the
www.hp.com page to that 30 years celebration ?
That's not expensive to do at all, and would add some visibility.
After all, HP is celebrating, or is it not.?
Please do not answer ! Let Mr. Fink do.
Thanks
Syltrem
Uusimäki
Very frankly put. Here we call people who bring up uneasy facts "disgust
realists". :-)
Bill Gunshannon
In this newsgroup they usually just shoot the messenger and continue
along the same old path happily sprinkling rosebuds all around.
P. Sture
"Syltrem" <syltr...@videotron.ca> wrote:
> I won't be able to attend the webcast tomorrow.
>
> Can someone ask Martin Fink (at the webcast) why there's not a link on the
> www.hp.com page to that 30 years celebration ?
> That's not expensive to do at all, and would add some visibility.
> After all, HP is celebrating, or is it not.?
>
> Please do not answer ! Let Mr. Fink do.
I _would_ make the time to attend the webcast, but the silly buggers
told me this in an email:
--- start quote ---
First Time Participant Registration Instructions:
1. Go to http://www.regontap.com/encompass/index.html
...
6. Please note the RegonTap registration website will NOT work with Mac
or Linux machines.
Gerhard Wedenig
Chairman HP-Interex EMEA
E-Mail: hp-interex-c...@associationhq.com
--- end quote ---
It's fucking disgusting.
--
Paul Sture
Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks:
http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html
Rob Brown
> 6. Please note the RegonTap registration website will NOT work with
> Mac or Linux machines.
I note that VMS is not on the list of machines it will not work on.
--
Rob Brown b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o m
G. Michaels Consulting Ltd. (780)438-9343 (voice)
Edmonton (780)437-3367 (FAX)
http://gmcl.com/
P. Sture
"Syltrem" <syltr...@videotron.ca> wrote:
> >
> > In article <1193307403.9...@o38g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
> > IanMiller <gx...@uk2.net> writes:
> >>Visit
> >>http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/30th/index.html
> >>and see Mark Hurd talk about VMS!!!
> >>
>
> Clicking on View Complete Guestbook gives:
>
> Page Not Found
>
>
> The requested document
> "http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/30th/guestbook.html" was not found on
> this server.
>
The guestbook was definitely there earlier. I reckon that someone posted
something unpleasant so they simply deleted the file.
Oh thanks a bunch to whoever did that; it means I'm not going to point a
load of folks there.
P. Sture
Rob Brown <mylas...@gmcl.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Oct 2007, P. Sture wrote:
>
> > 6. Please note the RegonTap registration website will NOT work with
> > Mac or Linux machines.
>
> I note that VMS is not on the list of machines it will not work on.
LOL! You just cheered me up there :-)
Bill Gunshannon
Rob Brown <mylas...@gmcl.com> writes:
> On Thu, 25 Oct 2007, P. Sture wrote:
>
>> 6. Please note the RegonTap registration website will NOT work with
>> Mac or Linux machines.
>
> I note that VMS is not on the list of machines it will not work on.
Ken Robinson
> > Clicking on View Complete Guestbook gives:
> >
> > Page Not Found
> >
> >
[snip]
> >
>
> The guestbook was definitely there earlier. I reckon that someone posted
> something unpleasant so they simply deleted the file.
>
> Oh thanks a bunch to whoever did that; it means I'm not going to point a
> load of folks there.
This was just a wrong URL in the site. It was fixed. The guestbook is
still there.
Ken
Bob Koehler
>
> Are you taking bets? Guess which side I would bet on?
>
As usual, you'ld be wrong (I just tried it).
Mozilla build 2002052008, OpenVMS Alpha V7.2-1
Dirk Munk
and with good reason.
With that in mind, I wonder if anyone noticed that Mr. Hurd said that HP
would support OpenVMS , not support and continue to develop OpenVMS or
something similar.
I don't know if this is significant, maybe we should ask for a
clarification?
Richard Maher
I was around for 25 of those (for the most part) glorious years. What a
crazy ride!
I look forward to the next 25 (hopefully slightly less eventful) years with
still the best server OS on the planet.
Well done to all past and present who produced a product of such quality
that it has survived, and continued to flourish, through such difficult
times.
The core OS engineers and the compiler guys are owed a debt of gratitude
from all (me anyway) of us - Well done! (If only the layered product,
middleware *and middle management* wankers could see what's starring them in
the face, then the bottom line would be so much healthier! "Middleware for
Dummies"? Dummies all right! Not one bloody chapter in there is still being
actively supported to customers :-( Anyway, I tried not to whinge; go off
and have a well deserved beer. I imagine that they'd be a gathering of many
old faces at various DEC sites at the moment - The drinks are on you :-)
Cheers Richard Maher
"IanMiller" <gx...@uk2.net> wrote in message
news:1193307403.9...@o38g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Bob Koehler
> OpenVMS customers have been paranoid about HP's intend with their OS,
> and with good reason.
>
> With that in mind, I wonder if anyone noticed that Mr. Hurd said that HP
> would support OpenVMS , not support and continue to develop OpenVMS or
> something similar.
>
> I don't know if this is significant, maybe we should ask for a
> clarification?
Maybe you're splitting hairs on a bald man.
DaveG
> > HP doesn't care about all the people who have bet their careers on VMS and
> > whose skills are now worthless and unmarketable, we're going down with the
> > ship and it won't affect any of their real customers on Wintel and HP-UX.
> > HP will give us a bit of music to appease us, and keep telling us that the
> > ship is unsinkable and to not worry about the rising water. At one point,
> > HP will make an announcement that the ship cannot be recovered and will
> > sink momentarily.
>
> I won't be able to attend the webcast tomorrow.
>
> That's not expensive to do at all, and would add some visibility.
> After all, HP is celebrating, or is it not.?
>
> Please do not answer ! Let Mr. Fink do.
>
> Thanks
> Syltrem
I sent a note to Martin Fink and Scott Stallard on this and got a
reply from Stallard. There is a link from the Enterprise home page
for servers, with an interesting title "The amazing OS you've never
heard of".
http://welcome.hp.com/country/us/en/prodserv/servers.html
He also mentioned that he asked the corp HP team for a link at the top
page.
Dave...
DaveG
Rather than celebrate 30 years and all the efforts it probably took to
get the Mark Hurd video and web site put together, it turned into yet
another gripe session.
I did like the splitting hairs on the bald guy comment.
My thanks and appreciation to Sue and all the others that I probably
don't know who put together the 30th anniversary stuff.
Happy Anniversary VMS !!!
Dave...
Jan-Erik Söderholm
> Just an observation on what I've noticed in this thread.
>
> Rather than celebrate 30 years and all the efforts it probably took to
> get the Mark Hurd video and web site put together, it turned into yet
I totaly agree !!
Someone complainted on that HP aren't helping those who
make their living on VMS.
Well, *I* have no problem with *HP*.
The largest threat against me making my living on
VMS seems to come from cov itself...
I just couldn't care less if this and that doesn't run
on a VAX (or a uV-II in particular).
> My thanks and appreciation to Sue and all the others that I probably
> don't know who put together the 30th anniversary stuff.
It's a mistery to me how Sue can stand all the neg feedback
on just about every post she does ! Amazing...
Best Regards,
Jan-Erik.
Syltrem
"DaveG" <david.g...@abbott.com> wrote in message
news:1193411360.7...@o3g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
I second that.
Indeed that is all good work and it`s important that it doesn`t stay just
between us.
I`m glad to see the Servers page has a link to it. Thanks for following up
on this.
There should also be something to catch the eye, on this page:
http://welcome.hp.com/country/us/en/prodserv/software_os.html
Long live VMS !
Syltrem
Peter Weaver
> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/30th/index.html
> and see Mark Hurd talk about VMS!!!
>
> Post your own message at http://h71000.www7.hp.com/fb_30years.html
>
Happy anniversary VMS. I have been using VMS to put food on my table since
9-JUL-1984. The late Chris Moore used to kid that I was a newbie since he
had his first VMS system delivered on 3-JUL-1984, I never had the heart to
tell him that I spent three years in college learning about computers on a
VAX :)
Congratulations to everyone involved in the greatest operating system in the
world. Here's to the next 30.
Peter Weaver
www.weaverconsulting.ca
CHARON-VAX CHARON-AXP DataStream Reflection PreciseMail HP Commercial
Hardware
JF Mezei
> In article <ffr13a$r75$1...@news6.zwoll1.ov.home.nl>, Dirk Munk <mu...@home.nl> writes:
>> With that in mind, I wonder if anyone noticed that Mr. Hurd said that HP
>> would support OpenVMS , not support and continue to develop OpenVMS
> Maybe you're splitting hairs on a bald man.
The fact that a customer would make such a statement is indicative that
there isn't much trust in HP truly intending to leverage the full
potential of VMS.
The fact that Hurd only talks to the VMS community instead of
celebrating VMS' 30th anniversary with the media at large is also an
indication that even on its birthday, VMS isn't good enough to HP to be
mentioned in the real world.
And when talking to the VMS community, if the best he can come up with
is "continue to support", then that says a lot about just how far HP is
willing to go with VMS.
And as long as the HP staff loyal to VMS are unwilling to admit that
there is a problem with VMS within HP and continue to paint a rosy
picture and deny all our fears, then the VMS community will not rise up
to convince HP upper management to change their strategy with regards to
VMS.
Nobody is asking HP to stop making expensive plastic cartridges with a
few mm of coloured water in them. But that does not prevent HP from
allowing VMS to be marketed and giving it back the human resources
needed to continue proper development of VMS and give it a shot of
energy to help fix all the problems started by Palmer, Curly and Carly.
Rich Jordan
> In article <1193307403.906042.299...@o38g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, IanMiller <g...@uk2.net> writes:
>
> >Visit
> >http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/30th/index.html
> >and see Mark Hurd talk about VMS!!!
>
> >Post your own message athttp://h71000.www7.hp.com/fb_30years.html
>
>
> --
> VAXman- A Bored Certified VMS Kernel Mode Hacker VAXman(at)TMESIS(dot)COM
>
> "Well my son, life is like a beanstalk, isn't it?"
>
> http://tmesis.com/drat.html
There's a typo in one of the "past" flash page popups. When I tried
to send a feedback (using the feedback link on the page) I got the
expected feedback screen but when I submitted that I got the error:
Unable to load the mail file from /var/opt/web/whp-web/vhost/offweb/
Main/whpadmin/control/mail-codes.txt
Other than that, and the fact that the videos with their audio
accompaniment started up automatically without being asked (rather
jarring at work), its a pretty nice site and tribute.
Sue
> On Oct 25, 9:31 am, "Syltrem" <syltremz...@videotron.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > > HP doesn't care about all the people who have bet their careers on VMS and
> > > whose skills are now worthless and unmarketable, we're going down with the
> > > ship and it won't affect any of their real customers on Wintel and HP-UX.
> > > HP will give us a bit of music to appease us, and keep telling us that the
> > > ship is unsinkable and to not worry about the rising water. At one point,
> > > HP will make an announcement that the ship cannot be recovered and will
> > > sink momentarily.
>
> > I won't be able to attend the webcast tomorrow.
>
> > That's not expensive to do at all, and would add some visibility.
> > After all, HP is celebrating, or is it not.?
>
> > Please do not answer ! Let Mr. Fink do.
>
> > Thanks
> > Syltrem
>
> I sent a note to Martin Fink and Scott Stallard on this and got a
> reply from Stallard. There is a link from the Enterprise home page
> for servers, with an interesting title "The amazing OS you've never
> heard of".
>
> http://welcome.hp.com/country/us/en/prodserv/servers.html
>
> He also mentioned that he asked the corp HP team for a link at the top
> page.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Dave here is an updated url
HP.Com
click on Large Enterprise Business or go directly to
http://www.hp.com/country/us/en/solutions/leb.html
JF Mezei
> click on Large Enterprise Business or go directly to
> http://www.hp.com/country/us/en/solutions/leb.html
While this is a definite improvement over normal treatment of VMS, is
there a reason HP couldn't even put this up on its main page for at
least one day ?
If they can put up text about HP sponsoring some solar powered car, then
Shirley they could have mentioned one of their own products having
lasted 30 years.
I am sure there are great administrative excuses that make it impossible
for the VMS group to get any exposure on http://www.hp.com even on what
should have been such an important event. But they are just that: excuses.
If Hurd had called the guy in charge of the main page and told him he
wanted VMS featured on the main page for 1 day on its 30th anniversary,
it would have been done without any hassles.
Nobody is criticising the work done by the VMS folks. But the lack of
real support from the HP top management is what is worrying people, and
this occasion has only underlined this at a time when they had such a
great opportunity to show the world (not just us) that they really want
VMS to grow.
Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER
>Well, *I* have no problem with *HP*.
>The largest threat against me making my living on
>VMS seems to come from cov itself...
Not for me. I'm for more than a decade on retreat combat with/for VMS
and I'm still loosing ground (and COV has *NOTHING* to do with it - it
started with DEC here which claimed that there will never be a VMS V6!)...
>I just couldn't care less if this and that doesn't run
>on a VAX (or a uV-II in particular).
So do I. My last VAX in its last days. (my Itanic comes next month and
I also will start with SIMH sometimes). But VAX is not VMS...
>> My thanks and appreciation to Sue and all the others that I probably
>> don't know who put together the 30th anniversary stuff.
I second that!!
>It's a mistery to me how Sue can stand all the neg feedback
>on just about every post she does ! Amazing...
It's also a mistery how she is still allowed to fight (so loud
and successfully) for VMS (within HPQ) for years now...
And Sue understands that COV criticize HP (toplevel) and not her personally!
My hugs to Sue and keep your head up
--
Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER
Network and OpenVMS system specialist
E-mail pe...@langstoeger.at
A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist
Main, Kerry
> From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei...@vaxination.ca]
> Sent: October 26, 2007 2:36 PM
> To: Info...@Mvb.Saic.Com
> Subject: Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
>
> Sue wrote:
>
> > click on Large Enterprise Business or go directly to
> > http://www.hp.com/country/us/en/solutions/leb.html
>
> While this is a definite improvement over normal treatment of VMS, is
> there a reason HP couldn't even put this up on its main page for at
> least one day ?
>
> If they can put up text about HP sponsoring some solar powered car,
> then
> Shirley they could have mentioned one of their own products having
> lasted 30 years.
>
> I am sure there are great administrative excuses that make it
> impossible
> for the VMS group to get any exposure on http://www.hp.com even on what
> should have been such an important event. But they are just that:
> excuses.
>
Jf -
What is this fascination you have with the main page on HP.com?
Geeze .. Can't you say at least one nice note without bringing in all the black
helicopter theories?
You obviously have no idea of the inner workings of a $100B company with literally
hundreds of products.
[snip...]
Regards
Kerry Main
Senior Consultant
HP Services Canada
Voice: 613-592-4660
Fax: 613-591-4477
kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
(remove the DOT's and AT)
OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.
Ken Robinson
> What is this fascination you have with the main page on HP.com?
>
> Geeze .. Can't you say at least one nice note without bringing in all the black
> helicopter theories?
>
> You obviously have no idea of the inner workings of a $100B company with literally
> hundreds of products.
>
It's out on the main hp.com page right now. :) You will see it if the
"Large Enterprise Business" tab is active.
Ken
Jan-Erik Söderholm
Right, so let's wait and see what's wrong *now*... :-)
Jan-Erik.
Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER
>What is this fascination you have with the main page on HP.com?
What is your fascination with JF postings?
Only because he is still putting the finger in the wound
(while all other got bored repeating itself pointing to the obvious
and stopped years ago)?
Don't shoot the messenger...
(though I often get bored of JF postings, too)
Dirk Munk
course they would support VMS customers, but that they also would be
very happy to assist VMS customers to migrate their application to WinNT
or Unix? Customers understood very well what was meant by that: MOVE
AWAY FROM VMS !! And they did.
Mr. Hurd must be aware of this history, and so we may expect him to be
very precise in what he is saying about VMS. The fact that he doesn't
say anything about the future or vitality of VMS and only talks about
supporting it may have some significance.
Sometimes the true meaning of a speech doesn't lie in what has been
said, but in what hasn't been said. History is full of examples.
Main, Kerry
> From: Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER [mailto:pe...@langstoeger.at]
> Sent: October 26, 2007 3:36 PM
> To: Info...@Mvb.Saic.Com
>
> In article
> <C72D63EB292C9E49AED23...@G1W0487.americas.hpqcorp.ne
> t>, "Main, Kerry" <Kerry...@hp.com> writes:
> >What is this fascination you have with the main page on HP.com?
>
> What is your fascination with JF postings?
> Only because he is still putting the finger in the wound
> (while all other got bored repeating itself pointing to the obvious
> and stopped years ago)?
>
> Don't shoot the messenger...
>
> (though I often get bored of JF postings, too)
>
> --
> Peter "EPLAN" LANGSTOEGER
> Network and OpenVMS system specialist
> E-mail pe...@langstoeger.at
> A-1030 VIENNA AUSTRIA I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist
Well, its one thing to constantly say its raining, but when the sun comes out
occasionally, there is nothing wrong with recognizing that a bit of sun shine
is a good thing. Enjoy it.
JF Mezei
> You obviously have no idea of the inner workings of a $100B company with literally
> hundreds of products.
Obviously not. And obviously companies like Microsoft, Sun, Apple etc
also have no clue since they have no problem using their main mage to
brag about certain achievements or new products.
I am not sure whether the VMS loyalists within HP just have to defend
their company even though deep down they know that the customers are
right, or whether they just accept that this is how every large
corporation functions and see nothing wrong with HP refusing to
advertise VMS, even refuse to send out press releases, or perhaps they
are truly naive and see absolutely nothing wrong with the way VMS is
treated by HP and really wonder why customers see plenty of wrong ways
in which HP is handling VMS.
Perhaps McQuaid should hire a sacrificial loud mouth who could wreak
havok within HP to sensitise people to the potential of VMS and how
upper management should change their attitudes towards VMS, even though
that would surely result in that person being fired fairly quickly.
AEF
Cool! Very cool. Hah!!! My letter to Mark Hurd did some good after
all! ;-)
Thanks, Ken, for the notice.
Hurray!!! |8-D)
AEF
Main, Kerry
> From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei...@vaxination.ca]
> Sent: October 26, 2007 6:00 PM
> To: Info...@Mvb.Saic.Com
> Subject: Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
>
>
> > You obviously have no idea of the inner workings of a $100B company
> with literally
> > hundreds of products.
>
> Obviously not. And obviously companies like Microsoft, Sun, Apple etc
> also have no clue since they have no problem using their main mage to
> brag about certain achievements or new products.
>
Ok - quick question -
Would you rather have HP advertise on the main HP web site where mostly Mom and Pop
Cust's go for printer drivers, latest desktops, laptops etc or would you prefer
OpenVMS be advertised on the Server / Enterprise section where more serious Cust's
interested in server infrastructure solutions are more likely to go to?
And since you brought it up as an example of your pedestal company, Microsoft does
not have Windows 2003 Server advertised on its Microsoft.com web site, so they
obviously want Customers to move to something else - right?
:-)
AEF
Kerry, it's on the main page now. Did you not see Ken's post? (You're
still right about JF, though.)
I'd recommend also putting this on the Gov't, Health, and Education
tab.
Thanks hp!
AEF
Richard Maher
> Just an observation on what I've noticed in this thread.
>
> Rather than celebrate 30 years and all the efforts it probably took to
> get the Mark Hurd video and web site put together, it turned into yet
> another gripe session.
And I observe that you chose a response to my post as the most appropriate
venue for your speach, yet without quoting anything from it. Maybe it's just
the threading in my newsreader, but in case anyone else is confused here is
my post again: -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hi,
I was around for 25 of those (for the most part) glorious years. What a
crazy ride!
I look forward to the next 25 (hopefully slightly less eventful) years with
still the best server OS on the planet.
Well done to all past and present who produced a product of such quality
that it has survived, and continued to flourish, through such difficult
times.
The core OS engineers and the compiler guys are owed a debt of gratitude
from all (me anyway) of us - Well done! (If only the layered product,
middleware *and middle management* wankers could see what's starring them in
the face, then the bottom line would be so much healthier! "Middleware for
Dummies"? Dummies all right! Not one bloody chapter in there is still being
actively supported to customers :-( Anyway, I tried not to whinge; go off
and have a well deserved beer. I imagine that they'd be a gathering of many
old faces at various DEC sites at the moment - The drinks are on you :-)
Cheers Richard Maher
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Nah, 2nd time around I still found it uplifting.
OTOH, if you are refering to the people who have gloated at the prospect of
being able to pronounce VMS dead on numerous occasions over the last 15
years, (yet keep turning up to say "This time for sure" ) then please
continue.
Cheers Richard Maher
"DaveG" <david.g...@abbott.com> wrote in message
news:1193411360.7...@o3g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
AEF
wrote:
> Hi Dave,
>
> > Just an observation on what I've noticed in this thread.
>
> > Rather than celebrate 30 years and all the efforts it probably took to
> > get the Mark Hurd video and web site put together, it turned into yet
> > another gripe session.
>
> And I observe that you chose a response to my post as the most appropriate
> venue for your speach, yet without quoting anything from it. Maybe it's just
> the threading in my newsreader, but in case anyone else is confused here is
> my post again: -
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I was around for 25 of those (for the most part) glorious years. What a
> crazy ride!
>
> I look forward to the next 25 (hopefully slightly less eventful) years with
> still the best server OS on the planet.
>
> Well done to all past and present who produced a product of such quality
> that it has survived, and continued to flourish, through such difficult
> times.
>
Continuing in this positive vein, I'd like to suggest that we write to
HP execs thanking them for giving VMS more visibility and encouraging
more of the same. This will at worst do nothing, but at best will help
the situation. Either way, it's certainly better about complaining,
griping, whining, etc.
Look all that's happened from my one postal mail. (!) |;-)) Imagine if
all of us did the same! :-)
AEF
Tom Linden
> Visit
> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/30th/index.html
> and see Mark Hurd talk about VMS!!!
>
> Post your own message at http://h71000.www7.hp.com/fb_30years.html
>
Continue "supporting for the forseeable future" is sadly a rather
feeble comment
--
PL/I for OpenVMS
www.kednos.com
Peter 'EPLAN' LANGSTOeGER
>Well, its one thing to constantly say its raining, but when the sun comes out
>occasionally, there is nothing wrong with recognizing that a bit of sun shine
>is a good thing. Enjoy it.
We all enjoy it. But: JF/others only repeat himself/themselves because he/they
has/ve the impression that you/HPQ deny/ies that it is raining (cause you/HPQ
*only* talk about the few sunny hours per year instead of the whole weather)
Nuff said (cause I'm not JF)
JF Mezei
There will come a time (perhaps sooner rather than later) where I really
just won't care anymore about VMS and will laugh instead of cry when HP
execs go in public to mention that VMS is for the installed based only
and will now refrain from saying anything more than "we will continue to
support it" (with the word "developed" no longer mentioned.) And when HP
announces the end of the line for VMS, it won't bother me anymore
because I will have moved on to a platform that doesn't generate so much
anger and incertainty because the vendor is unwilling to do the simplest
things to market the product and try to give it the life it deserves.
I was about to write a nice "press release" example to show what HP
could have done to really celebrate the 30th anniversary, but you know
what, I don't care anymore.
TO Mr Main: you essentially called me a twit for thinking it was
possible for a multi-billion dollar corporation to put one its own own
products on its front web page: minutes later, someone pointed out that
it had in fact been put on the HP web page in a semi-visible way
(doesn't work with secured browsers). I don't expect an apology from
you, but I hope you have learned that even for large corporations, where
there is a will, there is a way.
For all the others: I am not the one who wrote the infamous Stallard
memo. I am not the one who essentially repeated that infamous policy
almost verbatim this past summer to Computerworld. I am not the one who
told Cerner et all to not bother with VMS anymore. Being angry at me
won't do anything to help VMS' cause.
If the HP-employed VMS loyalists refuse to see the writing on the wall
then so be it, they will simply let their employer continue with their
policy of de-emphasising VMS out of existance.
HP's strategy is to not kill VMS. Doing so will ensure a good proportion
of VMS customers leave HP and not come back for a very long time. By
keeping VMS on life support, they can then pull other strings to nudge
customers onto other HP products. Once HP has latched on to these
customers via other HP products, then it will be able to kill VMS and
there won't be much of a funeral because everyone will have left VMS by
then.
One of the strings HP is now playing with is getting ISVs to reduce
support of VMS and move to HP-UX. So HP isn't blamed if Cerner gets
customers to move to HP-UX.
HP is doing just enough so it cannot be accused of actively killing VMS.
(Although Stallard and now Livermore have made statements that are
very damaging to VMS).
It would be very simple for HP to signify that its true intentions are
not those mentioned above. But HP refuses to do so. It is HP that has
chosen to not promote VMS and only mention VMS to the installed base.
Dirk Munk
> IanMiller wrote:
>> Visit
>> http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/30th/index.html
>> and see Mark Hurd talk about VMS!!!
>
>
> the CEO mention one of his products.
>
> And since HP is intent on circumscribing its discussions to only the
> remaining installed base, there is no rejoicing in having some clueless
> CEO implicitely confirm they have no intentions of growing VMS, or
> re-instating the engineering numbers needed to keep VMS moving forwards.
>
>
> Since Ann Livermore is still in her position, despite having confirmed
> in a major newspaper that Stallard's absolute blunder of May 7th 2002
> was in fact corporate policy even in 2007, then one cannot but conclude
> that Hurd agrees with this policy. (catering to installed base in the
> hopes that they remain with HP when they drop VMS).
Is this the Livermore quote you are referring to?
"In particular for our OpenVMS customers, we are very focused on our
installed base. We want our installed base to be happy, and if or when
they ever want to migrate, we want them to migrate to another HP platform."
Unless SUN is owned by HP, they don't migrate to HP. In my company HP=UX
is also considered to be a kind of Dinosaur, so the number of HP-UX
systems is decreasing as well.
We still have lots of HP x86 boxes. They are quite good, but on the
other hand you can run Windows or Linux on any x86 box. Not a very good
argument for customer loyalty.
>
> At least HP is now much more open about its policy of downsizing VMS out
> of existance and moving the few key ISVs such as Cerner to other HP
> products before VMS sinks.
>
> When VMS engineers were stating that there were no plans to move VMS
> beyond that IA64 contraption, perhaps they were sending a clear message
> that VMS is now in a dead end and the end is coming soon when IA64 is
> confirmed as a mature platform in a year or two.
>
> My only hope is that the vast majority of those leaving VMS will not be
> HP customers after VMS.
Dr. Dweeb
On my desk is the Celebrating "VAX OpenVMS at 20 - Nothing Stops It" banner
stand.
I guess its been there 10 years. I was pretty sure at the time that VMS
would not see 30, so I guess I was wrong there. I was right about the fact
that the decline had started, that it was intentional, and that it was
unstoppable though. It is just going to take a bit longer due to the inertia
of systems. It is just hard work, time consuming and expensive to convert
multi-billion dollar corps off one platform to another.
VMS is so dismally insignificant in the market place now that I no longer
work with it and was not at (or even invited to) and 30th anniversary event.
Sad really ...
I was talking to a former colleague yesterday - his company (a houshold
name, multi-billion US corp) is now well on the way to the complete
elimination of the HP logo and all the VMS machines that previously ran the
business.
This is one of many, many departures from VMS who will never be coming back.
They were buttf****ed by HP and HP will never sell another item there. As it
should be, but sadly, VMS is the victim of HPs ineptitude (or perhaps it is
directed malice).
Anyway, guys, like I have said before - there is no future for VMS because
HP does not want one. It constitutes about 1% of the revenues (a wild
unsubstantiated guess to make a point) and is thus off Hurd's radar. We all
need to deal with it and get on with our lives, looking after our families
and looking forward to retirement on some tropical island.
Dr. Dweeb
(A sad refugee to the disaster zone that is MS enterprise systems - what a
crock - but yours and my future!)
Ken Robinson
> Anyway, guys, like I have said before - there is no future for VMS because
> HP does not want one. It constitutes about 1% of the revenues (a wild
> unsubstantiated guess to make a point) and is thus off Hurd's radar. We all
> need to deal with it and get on with our lives, looking after our families
> and looking forward to retirement on some tropical island.
There's a good article on internetnews.com about the 30th Anniversary
<http://www.internetnews.com/ent-news/article.php/3707631>. It seems
to contradict your opinion. One quote I find particularly interesting
is "As part of its anniversary celebrations, HP is rolling out a new
marketing campaign for the middle-aged OS,".
Ken
Main, Kerry
> From: JF Mezei [mailto:jfmezei...@vaxination.ca]
> Sent: October 27, 2007 6:13 AM
> To: Info...@Mvb.Saic.Com
> Subject: Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
>
First - I did not infer you were a twit. On the contrary, While I may not
agree with all of the doom-n-gloom, you have a huge passion for OpenVMS and
technically very astute. There is no doubt about that.
Apology? I was simply pointing out that the main HP.com page is usually
reserved for Mom and Pop looking for entertainment, printer drivers, laptops
and desktop type stuff.
And I was not kidding when I said HP literally has hundreds of products.
The fact that HP put OpenVMS on the main site is a huge step for HP - when
was the last time anyone saw HP-UX or NSK on the front page like this?
In the past, threads here were full of "Why can't HP get Mark Hurd to say
some positive things about OpenVMS?" and "why can't HP promote OpenVMS
more on its non-OpenVMS web pages?"
So, HP made both these happen and yet there are still some on this list who
refuse to even acknowledge this as a good thing.
Yes, there is lots more to do, but as they say, lets enjoy the moment.
> For all the others: I am not the one who wrote the infamous Stallard
> memo. I am not the one who essentially repeated that infamous policy
> almost verbatim this past summer to Computerworld. I am not the one who
> told Cerner et all to not bother with VMS anymore. Being angry at me
> won't do anything to help VMS' cause.
>
> If the HP-employed VMS loyalists refuse to see the writing on the wall
> then so be it, they will simply let their employer continue with their
> policy of de-emphasising VMS out of existance.
>
Everyone on this list (including me) agrees there could be better marketing, but
the HP-UX and NSK groups would say the same thing. Its not just OpenVMS.
> HP's strategy is to not kill VMS. Doing so will ensure a good
> proportion
> of VMS customers leave HP and not come back for a very long time. By
> keeping VMS on life support, they can then pull other strings to nudge
> customers onto other HP products. Once HP has latched on to these
> customers via other HP products, then it will be able to kill VMS and
> there won't be much of a funeral because everyone will have left VMS by
> then.
>
> One of the strings HP is now playing with is getting ISVs to reduce
> support of VMS and move to HP-UX. So HP isn't blamed if Cerner gets
> customers to move to HP-UX.
>
> HP is doing just enough so it cannot be accused of actively killing
> VMS.
> (Although Stallard and now Livermore have made statements that are
> very damaging to VMS).
>
And Senior VP's of IBM have made very bad public statements about AIX in the past.
Do you really think IBM is going to drop AIX anytime soon?
Of course not.
> It would be very simple for HP to signify that its true intentions are
> not those mentioned above. But HP refuses to do so. It is HP that has
> chosen to not promote VMS and only mention VMS to the installed base.
See notes about marketing - its not a VMS only issue.
And btw, OpenVMS is winning new Customers.
And here is good HP web site that I like:
http://tinyurl.com/2wcfjp
"The amazing operating system you've never heard of"
Main, Kerry
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken Robinson [mailto:kenr...@gmail.com]
> Sent: October 27, 2007 11:36 AM
> To: Info...@Mvb.Saic.Com
> Subject: Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
>
Hey, I like the term middle-aged OS .. has a nice ring to it.
:-)
Nice article.
Doug Phillips
>
> And here is good HP web site that I like:http://tinyurl.com/2wcfjp
> "The amazing operating system you've never heard of"
>
One statement in that article echoes something a customer said to me
recently.
This is a small manufacturer running OpenVMS on DS10 for all of their
front and back-room accounting, procurement, planning, production, and
distribution activities -- in other words, most everything they do
that's important. They also have a Win2k3 server running Exchange and
supporting some PC apps. They've replaced or "upgraded" the Windows
server hardware three times since the DS10 was installed, and during
the latest "upgrade" the general manager said to me: "Why can't this
Windows stuff work like VMS? We never have to worry about VMS. It just
works!"
A belated Happy Birthday, OpenVMS.
Main, Kerry
> From: Doug Phillips [mailto:dphi...@netscape.net]
> Sent: October 27, 2007 2:01 PM
> To: Info...@Mvb.Saic.Com
> Subject: Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
>
And if they would like to keep their Outlook or web based email clients, but replace
Their Exchange mail server with a plug compatible virus free server that runs on their
DS10 with OpenVMS, check out:
http://h71000.www7.hp.com/solutions/mail.html
:-)
And if they want a really, really cool demo of this, check out:
http://www.communigate.com/pronto/demo_10_enterprise.html
Doug Phillips
I've looked at communigate before. Looks like nice stuff and the price
isn't bad but I've never had the opportunity to install it anywhere.
If Exchange were the only reason to have the Windows server, they
probably wouldn't have it. Unfortunately there are too many other
things that either aren't available for VMS, or if they are they're
high-priced and not made for a small business. The Open Source stuff
I've seen that *could* be made to serve some of their needs requires
more time and effort to support than either they or I are willing to
invest. Their major customers have some "demands" that can most easily
be met %100 with Windows and that's just an unfortunate fact. If they
could run over to CompUSA or browse over to CDW and find a nice
selection of OTS VMS app's then maybe I could convince them that VMS
is all they need. What do you think?
But I didn't want to cast a negative into this discussion by
explaining why they have a Windows server and why VMS doesn't meet
100% of their needs. I also didn't want to mention some of the other
comments made by customers about the effort it takes to install VMS
patches and updates, nor their concerns about VMS' future, so I won't.
David J Dachtera
> [snip]
> There's a good article on internetnews.com about the 30th Anniversary
> <http://www.internetnews.com/ent-news/article.php/3707631>. It seems
> to contradict your opinion. One quote I find particularly interesting
> is "As part of its anniversary celebrations, HP is rolling out a new
> marketing campaign for the middle-aged OS,".
"a new marketing campaign", eh? We'll see about that.
--
David J Dachtera
dba DJE Systems
http://www.djesys.com/
Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page
http://www.djesys.com/vms/market/
Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/
Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/
Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/
Richard Maher
In my opinion there is rarely a call, or justification, for the use of such
intemperate language in civilized society; not that that has anything to do
with COV (or the world at large :-)
But I'm just curious as to why Robert Whininger hasn't come out in sympathy
with you. I'd certainly hate to think that I was being stalked or that it
was only my Web Pages that he felt compelled to critique publicly!
Cheers Richard Maher
"P. Sture" <paul.stu...@hispeed.ch> wrote in message
news:paul.sture.nospam-A...@mac.sture.ch...
> In article <13i1a58...@corp.supernews.com>,
> "Syltrem" <syltr...@videotron.ca> wrote:
>
> > I won't be able to attend the webcast tomorrow.
> >
> > Can someone ask Martin Fink (at the webcast) why there's not a link on
the
> > www.hp.com page to that 30 years celebration ?
> > That's not expensive to do at all, and would add some visibility.
> > After all, HP is celebrating, or is it not.?
> >
> > Please do not answer ! Let Mr. Fink do.
>
> I _would_ make the time to attend the webcast, but the silly buggers
> told me this in an email:
>
> --- start quote ---
> First Time Participant Registration Instructions:
>
> 1. Go to http://www.regontap.com/encompass/index.html
>
> ...
>
> 6. Please note the RegonTap registration website will NOT work with Mac
> or Linux machines.
>
> Gerhard Wedenig
> Chairman HP-Interex EMEA
> E-Mail: hp-interex-c...@associationhq.com
>
> --- end quote ---
>
> It's fucking disgusting.
>
> --
> Paul Sture
>
> Sue's OpenVMS bookmarks:
> http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~sture/ovms-bookmarks.html
Mark Daniel
commercial technology such as [Open]VMS still doing its best and still
having an enthusiastic coterie (look it up, it was chosen deliberately
:-) after thirty years is certainly worth celebrating.
First associated with it in 1988 when given a shelf full of manuals, VMS
5.0, a handful of VAXen, an HSC, some lengths of the thickest coax I'd
ever seen, and a swag of VAXstations to distribute around the building,
it in turn gave me the best fifteen years of my working life. Over the
years that cluster expanded to encompass some 76 nodes (upgrades were
interesting) including a VAX 9000 (we called the grey elephant - quote
me out of class and I'll deny it) and some of the first Alphas in the
Southern Hemisphere. Enough to keep the couple of staff who managed it
challenged and fully occupied.
Congratulations VMS!
Congratulations to the engineering team who created and developed it.
Congratulations to its evangelists and enthusiastic supporters.
--
Birthdays are good for you. The more you have, the longer you live.
[Unknown]
AEF
It doesn't matter to him or others like him. I can see it now:
"Yeah, it's on the front page, but that's only if you look at it!"
-OR-
"... but that's only if you go to the site!" (!!!)
> In the past, threads here were full of "Why can't HP get Mark Hurd to say
> some positive things about OpenVMS?" and "why can't HP promote OpenVMS
> more on its non-OpenVMS web pages?"
Again, I can hear the following:
"Yeah, but that's only if you listen to him!"
I'm surprised these comments haven't already been made! ;-)
> So, HP made both these happen and yet there are still some on this list who
> refuse to even acknowledge this as a good thing.
Yep! I, for one, think this is great.
>
> Yes, there is lots more to do, but as they say, lets enjoy the moment.
Agreed! Some POSITIVE letters to hp execs wouldn't hurt. Be thankful
and encourage more of the same.
[...]
> Regards
>
> Kerry Main
> Senior Consultant
> HP Services Canada
> Voice: 613-592-4660
> Fax: 613-591-4477
> kerryDOTmainAThpDOTcom
> (remove the DOT's and AT)
>
> OpenVMS - the secure, multi-site OS that just works.
Another great sig worth the repetition it gets.
AEF
D Gillbilly
>Visit
>http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/30th/index.html
>and see Mark Hurd talk about VMS!!!
>
>Post your own message at http://h71000.www7.hp.com/fb_30years.html
Tongue-in-cheek Personal Opinion
(as it always is... :-)
*The amazing OS you've never heard of*
Positive, self-depreciating humor mixed with a little wonder and mystery.
Let's see, in less than a month, I have been transformed from a legacy
programmer, writing code on a perceived near dead OS, for a market segment
that the Vendor has yet to acknowledge, into a programmer that writes
heavily researched, highly auditable 64 bit Small Business applications on
the most amazing OS you've never heard of.
How cool is that. :-)
And I'm from Nova Scotia :-)
*Looking Toward The Future*
Positive and forward sounding mixed with hope and no false promises.
If you meant that as a challenge, I accept. :-)
Does getting OpenVMS on the Small & Medium Business tab within 2-5 years
sound like a worthwhile goal? :-)
Thank You Mr Vendor.
I haven't felt this good about the future of OpenVMS in a long time.
Duane
Dr. Dweeb
Hey, I think it is a step forward (as Kerry pointed out) that VMS is getting
a bit of visibility. Too little too late, but every move in the right
direction is a good move.
Dweeb
Dr. Dweeb
I have not seen any evidence of this new campaign. Some references would be
nice.
Hey, I have a very large SQLServer envornment running on DELLs that is a
PITA, and I would love to convert to VMS/Rdb - it would solve so many issues
I have in terms of uptime and management, but most significantly,
backup/recover and disatser recovery and tolerance - but you know what? I
have the budget, the authority and the repsonsibility - but cannot bring
myself to even go through the process of doing the CostBenefit and migration
alayses, because in the end, I have no faith in HP - zero, noth, nada.
And where would I find a systems manager to set it up, and run it? They are
few and far between, and no one I know who has left the VMS world has any
intention of returning (and yes, I asked 2 or 3 I know).
And this is from someone who made a good career and fed his family for
decades via VMS.
Dweeb.
> Ken
Richard B. Gilbert
> Ken Robinson wrote:
>
>>On 10/27/07, Dr. Dweeb <sp...@dweeb.net> wrote (in part):
>>
>>
>>>Anyway, guys, like I have said before - there is no future for VMS
> And where would I find a systems manager to set it up, and run it? They are
> few and far between, and no one I know who has left the VMS world has any
> intention of returning (and yes, I asked 2 or 3 I know).
>
<snip>
Ron Johnson
[snip]
>
> Hey, I have a very large SQLServer envornment running on DELLs that is a
> PITA, and I would love to convert to VMS/Rdb - it would solve so many issues
> I have in terms of uptime and management, but most significantly,
> backup/recover and disatser recovery and tolerance - but you know what? I
Why does backup/recovery have to be so complicated? Are IBM (and
presumably Burroughs and Univac) and DEC developers the only
competent ones in the world?
> have the budget, the authority and the repsonsibility - but cannot bring
> myself to even go through the process of doing the CostBenefit and migration
> alayses, because in the end, I have no faith in HP - zero, noth, nada.
>
> And where would I find a systems manager to set it up, and run it? They are
> few and far between, and no one I know who has left the VMS world has any
> intention of returning (and yes, I asked 2 or 3 I know).
>
> And this is from someone who made a good career and fed his family for
> decades via VMS.
--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA
Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day.
Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good!
Ken Robinson
> I have not seen any evidence of this new campaign. Some references would be
> nice.
Neither have I, that's why I found that quote interesting.
>
> Hey, I have a very large SQLServer envornment running on DELLs that is a
> PITA, and I would love to convert to VMS/Rdb - it would solve so many issues
> I have in terms of uptime and management, but most significantly,
> backup/recover and disatser recovery and tolerance - but you know what? I
> have the budget, the authority and the repsonsibility - but cannot bring
> myself to even go through the process of doing the CostBenefit and migration
> alayses, because in the end, I have no faith in HP - zero, noth, nada.
>
> And where would I find a systems manager to set it up, and run it? They are
> few and far between, and no one I know who has left the VMS world has any
> intention of returning (and yes, I asked 2 or 3 I know).
If you can't find an experienced System Manager, train a new one. All
of the people who are/have been VMS System Managers didn't come fully
trained in their first positions. We learned via formal training, on
the job training, at DECUS symposiums (now VMS Boot Camp), and later
by using on-line resources.
Yes, the experienced VMS System Managers are few and far between, but
we are out here and many would jump at the chance to do a migration TO
VMS.
BTW, my contract just got extended for another 6 months, so I may be
available at the end of June. Where are you located?? :-)
Ken
Richard B. Gilbert
> On 10/28/07 10:00, Dr. Dweeb wrote:
> [snip]
>
>>Hey, I have a very large SQLServer envornment running on DELLs that is a
>>PITA, and I would love to convert to VMS/Rdb - it would solve so many issues
>>I have in terms of uptime and management, but most significantly,
>>backup/recover and disatser recovery and tolerance - but you know what? I
>
>
> Why does backup/recovery have to be so complicated? Are IBM (and
> presumably Burroughs and Univac) and DEC developers the only
> competent ones in the world?
>
>
Because, unless you can shut down the application(s) and quiesce the
system, you are shooting at a moving target! It's a rare system that
you can just shut down because you think you ought to make a backup!
People go through some very complex gyrations to get a consistent
snapshot of the system because it CAN'T be down.
Ron Johnson
It's *not* rocket science. DEC engineers figured out 23 years ago
how to do a "hot" backup of a relational database. (It just a read
only transaction...)
Jan-Erik Söderholm
> It's *not* rocket science. DEC engineers figured out 23 years ago
> how to do a "hot" backup of a relational database. (It just a read
> only transaction...)
>
It's not the R/O trans as such that is the key here.
It's the way the R/O trans is run, that is in an
non-locking, repateable-read transaction. Very
few other DBMS's can do that, they lack whatever
is needed in the engine (like the snapshot
handling). MS SQLserv can't. MySQL can't (if you
don't shadow the whole database...)
Jan-Erik.
Dr. Dweeb
> On 10/28/07, Dr. Dweeb <sp...@dweeb.net> wrote (in part):
>> I have not seen any evidence of this new campaign. Some references
>> would be nice.
>
> Neither have I, that's why I found that quote interesting.
>
>>
>> Hey, I have a very large SQLServer envornment running on DELLs that
>> is a PITA, and I would love to convert to VMS/Rdb - it would solve
>> so many issues I have in terms of uptime and management, but most
>> significantly, backup/recover and disatser recovery and tolerance -
>> but you know what? I have the budget, the authority and the
>> repsonsibility - but cannot bring myself to even go through the
>> process of doing the CostBenefit and migration alayses, because in
>> the end, I have no faith in HP - zero, noth, nada.
>>
>> And where would I find a systems manager to set it up, and run it?
>> They are few and far between, and no one I know who has left the VMS
>> world has any intention of returning (and yes, I asked 2 or 3 I
>> know).
>
> If you can't find an experienced System Manager, train a new one. All
> of the people who are/have been VMS System Managers didn't come fully
> trained in their first positions. We learned via formal training, on
> the job training, at DECUS symposiums (now VMS Boot Camp), and later
> by using on-line resources.
>
You realise of course how galactically inappropriate that comment is?
> Yes, the experienced VMS System Managers are few and far between, but
> we are out here and many would jump at the chance to do a migration TO
> VMS.
>
Maybe, I will find out should I ever get that far.
> BTW, my contract just got extended for another 6 months, so I may be
> available at the end of June. Where are you located?? :-)
>
> Ken
Actually, finding as SQLServer DBA with a clue is not easy either, but i
digress ...
Like I wrote, my faith in HP is approaching zero, so there will be no VMS in
my life any time soon (or jobs).
The big issue is the level of interdependence between the bits of the
environment. It's not just a "replace the engine" deal. There is quite a bit
that would need to be rewritten, at the same time that the business is
expanding - a non-trivial problem. My current task is to get the current
environment stabilised and somewhat leaner, after that I "may" consider
other long-term options. By then we will have SQLServer 2008 which is going
to offer almost no engine improvements, just more crapola on top.
btw - we don't do Java, we do .NET and all the stuff that goes with it (IIS,
c# etc. etc.)
In the end it would be a question of money and how willing the board would
be to pay for the security and operational advantages another environment
would offer. Not very, I suspect.
Dweeb
Main, Kerry
> From: Dr. Dweeb [mailto:sp...@dweeb.net]
> Sent: October 29, 2007 8:57 PM
> To: Info...@Mvb.Saic.Com
> Subject: Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
>
[snip..]
> btw - we don't do Java, we do .NET and all the stuff that goes with it
> (IIS,
> c# etc. etc.)
>
> In the end it would be a question of money and how willing the board
> would
> be to pay for the security and operational advantages another
> environment
> would offer. Not very, I suspect.
>
> Dweeb
>
Sorry, could not resist .. before anyone will admit to past mistakes, it usually takes
an incident like Skype (few days downtime - how would you like to tell the board why
your company was down for 2 days) or any number of other public incidents, before the
board forces IT to re-consider.
http://tinyurl.com/38upcr
Skype: It was all Microsoft's fault
http://tinyurl.com/2plncm
"More than 220 million users were without a service yesterday after the hugely successful
system developed what the outfit initially called a 'software error'. Since Skype is made
up entirely of software such an announcement was as useful as a chocolate teapot and
angered may users who have based their businesses on the software."
http://tinyurl.com/379ywl
Russian PDF attacks surge; Microsoft takes blame
"The reason Microsoft is involved is that while the current attacks are based on
malformed PDFs, the real vulnerability lies in Windows XP and Windows Server 2003 code,
not in Adobe's"
Lots of other recent examples, but you know all this anyway ..
However, on the positive side:
http://www.vista-control.com/itanium_success.htm
Los Alamos, February 15th. 2007 After implementing mission-critical systems on Windows-
based computers for many years, a customer experienced a virus in one of these systems
that shut down production for two days while the infected systems were diagnosed,
restored and tested. The impact was that plant production was severely impacted at no
small cost. Despite internal opposition because of the established standard, Vsystem
on HP Itanium servers running OpenVMS was chosen for the next system to be replaced."
:-)
bradhamilton
[...]
> However, on the positive side:
> http://www.vista-control.com/itanium_success.htm
> Los Alamos, February 15th. 2007 After implementing mission-critical systems on Windows-
> based computers for many years, a customer experienced a virus in one of these systems
> that shut down production for two days while the infected systems were diagnosed,
> restored and tested. The impact was that plant production was severely impacted at no
> small cost. Despite internal opposition because of the established standard, Vsystem
> on HP Itanium servers running OpenVMS was chosen for the next system to be replaced."
This is a nice story - I just wish that whoever wrote it had more than a
passing acquaintance with English; in particular, the last sentence
could be interpreted as meaning, "Vsystem on ... Itanium will be the
next system replaced".
A clearer form of the sentence would be, "Vsystem on HP Itanium servers
running OpenVMS was (were?) chosen to replace the failing systems,
despite internal opposition from supporters of the established
standard." :-)
I also noted under the "Supported Platforms" link that the page lists
all the different platforms that support Vsystem (including OpenVMS); if
you look at the bottom of that page, you will see all sorts of trademark
information for the different platforms, *except for* OpenVMS and Tru64
UNIX; we all know that HP (and its predecessors) failed to retain
trademark rights to the names, thereby missing yet another chance to
keep HP, OpenVMS, and Tru64UNIX in the minds of the computing "public".
Apologies for being such a buzz-kill on the 30th anniversary, but I'm
not the only one. I note that many people (including myself) were
inspired by Dweeb's "what if..." musings, only to be rudely brought back
to Earth by reality - a inconvenient reality that many here wish would
just go away.
Main, Kerry
> From: bradhamilton [mailto:bradha...@comcast.net]
> Sent: October 28, 2007 11:02 PM
> To: Info...@Mvb.Saic.Com
> Subject: Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
>
Hey, baby steps lead to walking which leads to running :-)
And it may be just my albeit biased perception, but with the massive moves to
recentralize IT environments now happening, security, stability and availability
seems to be getting much more attention these days.
Here is another Sept 2007 mission critical story with SCADA:
http://www.availabilitydigest.com/public_articles/0209/qei.pdf
extract - "The Master Station runs on HP OpenVMS blades or towers. It can be configured
as a standalone system or in a dual, triple, or quadruple modular redundancy
configuration, as described later."
Ron Johnson
I'll repeat it again, but in terms specific to your reply:
SERIALIZABLE read only transactions are not rocket science. DEC
engineers figured it out 23 years ago.
Probably even longer than that, depending on when DBMS-32 was
released. (Since DBMS and Rdb share the same KODA engine.)
Maybe even DBMS-11 also had SERIALIZABLE read only transactions?
Dr. Dweeb
> On 10/28/07 12:52, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
>> Ron Johnson wrote:
>>
>>> It's *not* rocket science. DEC engineers figured out 23 years ago
>>> how to do a "hot" backup of a relational database. (It just a read
>>> only transaction...)
>>>
>>
>> It's not the R/O trans as such that is the key here.
>>
>> It's the way the R/O trans is run, that is in an
>> non-locking, repateable-read transaction. Very
>> few other DBMS's can do that, they lack whatever
>> is needed in the engine (like the snapshot
>> handling). MS SQLserv can't. MySQL can't (if you
>> don't shadow the whole database...)
>
> I'll repeat it again, but in terms specific to your reply:
> SERIALIZABLE read only transactions are not rocket science. DEC
> engineers figured it out 23 years ago.
>
> Probably even longer than that, depending on when DBMS-32 was
> released. (Since DBMS and Rdb share the same KODA engine.)
>
> Maybe even DBMS-11 also had SERIALIZABLE read only transactions?
I do not have Rdb :(
It may not be rocket science, but the capability requires lots of stuff
designed in the engine (like Rdb).
SQLServer2005 has a form of RO transaction, but that is only part of the
solution to part of the problem.
Dweeb
Dr. Dweeb
Yeah, your singing to the choir. But I cannot "cause" such an event, in fact
my job is to prevent it. The better I do my job, the less likely it is to
happen, and less likely ... you get the idea.
Jan-Erik Söderholm
> On 10/28/07 12:52, Jan-Erik Söderholm wrote:
>> Ron Johnson wrote:
>>
>>> It's *not* rocket science. DEC engineers figured out 23 years ago
>>> how to do a "hot" backup of a relational database. (It just a read
>>> only transaction...)
>>>
>> It's not the R/O trans as such that is the key here.
>>
>> It's the way the R/O trans is run, that is in an
>> non-locking, repateable-read transaction. Very
>> few other DBMS's can do that, they lack whatever
>> is needed in the engine (like the snapshot
>> handling). MS SQLserv can't. MySQL can't (if you
>> don't shadow the whole database...)
>
No need to, since I never said you're wrong, did I?
I just mentioned that *other* DBMS engines hasn't
implemented that non-rocket science...
> but in terms specific to your reply:
> SERIALIZABLE read only transactions are not rocket science.
Other databases does that, but usualy by running an
exclusive R/O trans, locking the actual tables for
update during the R/O trans. Rdb does not.
Jan-Erik.
Bob Koehler
>
> It's out on the main hp.com page right now. :) You will see it if the
> "Large Enterprise Business" tab is active.
Dang. I had a hard time finding it. It's at the top of the page in
BIG LETTERS, the last place I looked!
Ron Johnson
[snip]
>
> Sorry, could not resist .. before anyone will admit to past mistakes, it usually takes
> an incident like Skype (few days downtime - how would you like to tell the board why
> your company was down for 2 days) or any number of other public incidents, before the
> board forces IT to re-consider.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/38upcr
> Skype: It was all Microsoft's fault
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2plncm
> "More than 220 million users were without a service yesterday after the hugely successful
> system developed what the outfit initially called a 'software error'. Since Skype is made
> up entirely of software such an announcement was as useful as a chocolate teapot and
> angered may users who have based their businesses on the software."
>
> http://tinyurl.com/379ywl
> Russian PDF attacks surge; Microsoft takes blame
> "The reason Microsoft is involved is that while the current attacks are based on
> malformed PDFs, the real vulnerability lies in Windows XP and Windows Server 2003 code,
> not in Adobe's"
>
> Lots of other recent examples, but you know all this anyway ..
And let's not forget why Linux is such a favorite of evildoers: it's
so stable, people rarely reboot it, and memory-resident malware
(usualy botnet controllers) can run unknown for months.
Jan-Erik Söderholm
He he. :-)
That actualy happend to me also.
In fact I swapped between the front page and the
specific "Large Enterprise Business" page *several times*
and could not understand why they had used the same guy
for that front-page banner before I say that it actualy
*was* the VMS banner... :-) :-)
I was looking for some small text-based info/link.
Jan-Erik.
Main, Kerry
> From: Ron Johnson [mailto:ron.l....@cox.net]
> Sent: October 29, 2007 9:21 AM
> To: Info...@Mvb.Saic.Com
> Subject: Re: Happy Anniversary VMS - 30 years young
>
Re: Linux .. yep, many Linux folks like to beat up on Microsoft and ignore the fact
that it itself is a huge risk from all of the monthly security patches released each
and every month. They have been bitten big time by the hype bug.
[Oct, 2007 - 25 Linux security patches this month alone]
https://www.redhat.com/archives/enterprise-watch-list/
(click on thread for each month and add them up)
See previous discussions on this. Yes, not all apply, and yes some are App and not
platform, but if the end result is the same i.e. elevated priv's or access to
unauthorized data, then it does not matter if it is an App or platform security patch.
IanMiller
AEF
wrote:
> Bob Koehler wrote:
> > In article <7dd80f60710261225j23705bd4h4538518023f2...@mail.gmail.com>, "Ken Robinson" <kenrb...@gmail.com> writes:
> >> It's out on the main hp.com page right now. :) You will see it if the
> >> "Large Enterprise Business" tab is active.
>
> > Dang. I had a hard time finding it. It's at the top of the page in
> > BIG LETTERS, the last place I looked!
>
> He he. :-)
>
> That actualy happend to me also.
> In fact I swapped between the front page and the
> specific "Large Enterprise Business" page *several times*
> and could not understand why they had used the same guy
> for that front-page banner before I say that it actualy
> *was* the VMS banner... :-) :-)
>
> I was looking for some small text-based info/link.
>
> Jan-Erik.
Well, of course you found it in the last place you looked. Why would
you keep looking once you found it? Therefore, you always find
something in the last place you look. :-)
AEF
Neil Rieck
> Visithttp://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/30th/index.html
> and see Mark Hurd talk about VMS!!!
>
> Post your own message athttp://h71000.www7.hp.com/fb_30years.html
30 years have slid by already? Why it just seems like yesterday when
we were learning how to use RT-11 on PDP-11/04.
:-)
We welcomed the move from RSX-11M on PDP-11/44 to go to VMS on VAX but
never thought we'd see anything better until we experienced OpenVMS on
Alpha.
Neil Rieck
Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge,
Ontario, Canada.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/n.rieck/
Tom Linden
wrote:
> We welcomed the move from RSX-11M on PDP-11/44 to go to VMS on VAX but
> never thought we'd see anything better until we experienced OpenVMS on
> Alpha.
Let's not revise history, VMS on Alpha was never quite the same as on VAX,
a lot was lost in the gratuitous migration
--
PL/I for OpenVMS
www.kednos.com
dav...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk
software which was ported) but the transition to Alpha wasn't gratuitous.
VAX performance even with the best efforts of the Digital engineers just
couldn't keep up with the competition.
David Webb
Security team leader
CCSS
Middlesex University
Bill Gunshannon
dav...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:
> In article <op.t00f6...@murphus.linden>, "Tom Linden" <t...@kednos.company> writes:
>>On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 19:35:30 -0700, Neil Rieck <n.r...@sympatico.ca>
>>wrote:
>>
>>> We welcomed the move from RSX-11M on PDP-11/44 to go to VMS on VAX but
>>> never thought we'd see anything better until we experienced OpenVMS on
>>> Alpha.
>>
>>Let's not revise history, VMS on Alpha was never quite the same as on VAX,
>>a lot was lost in the gratuitous migration
>>
> A lot of software was lost (and was made worse by DEC then selling of lots of
> software which was ported) but the transition to Alpha wasn't gratuitous.
> VAX performance even with the best efforts of the Digital engineers just
> couldn't keep up with the competition.
Sadly, we will never know, but I would be most interested in what the
performance of a VAX (or a PDP-11, for that matter) made with today's
technology (process size, speed-ups, etc.) would be.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bi...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
Richard B. Gilbert
> In article <fg7cif$2h4$1...@south.jnrs.ja.net>,
> dav...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:
>
>>In article <op.t00f6...@murphus.linden>, "Tom Linden" <t...@kednos.company> writes:
>>
>>>On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 19:35:30 -0700, Neil Rieck <n.r...@sympatico.ca>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>We welcomed the move from RSX-11M on PDP-11/44 to go to VMS on VAX but
>>>>never thought we'd see anything better until we experienced OpenVMS on
>>>>Alpha.
>>>
>>>Let's not revise history, VMS on Alpha was never quite the same as on VAX,
>>>a lot was lost in the gratuitous migration
>>>
>>
>>A lot of software was lost (and was made worse by DEC then selling of lots of
>>software which was ported) but the transition to Alpha wasn't gratuitous.
>>VAX performance even with the best efforts of the Digital engineers just
>>couldn't keep up with the competition.
>
>
> Sadly, we will never know, but I would be most interested in what the
> performance of a VAX (or a PDP-11, for that matter) made with today's
> technology (process size, speed-ups, etc.) would be.
>
> bill
>
That's one of those things that we will probably never know.
Do consider, however, the fact that RISC architectures are generally
faster than CISC.
Jan-Erik Söderholm
And the the current VAX *emulators* runs faster then any
VAX *hardware* ever did. If I understand correctly...
Bill Gunshannon
"Richard B. Gilbert" <rgilb...@comcast.net> writes:
> Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>> In article <fg7cif$2h4$1...@south.jnrs.ja.net>,
>> dav...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk writes:
>>
>>>In article <op.t00f6...@murphus.linden>, "Tom Linden" <t...@kednos.company> writes:
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 19:35:30 -0700, Neil Rieck <n.r...@sympatico.ca>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>We welcomed the move from RSX-11M on PDP-11/44 to go to VMS on VAX but
>>>>>never thought we'd see anything better until we experienced OpenVMS on
>>>>>Alpha.
>>>>
>>>>Let's not revise history, VMS on Alpha was never quite the same as on VAX,
>>>>a lot was lost in the gratuitous migration
>>>>
>>>
>>>A lot of software was lost (and was made worse by DEC then selling of lots of
>>>software which was ported) but the transition to Alpha wasn't gratuitous.
>>>VAX performance even with the best efforts of the Digital engineers just
>>>couldn't keep up with the competition.
>>
>>
>> Sadly, we will never know, but I would be most interested in what the
>> performance of a VAX (or a PDP-11, for that matter) made with today's
>> technology (process size, speed-ups, etc.) would be.
>>
>
>
> Do consider, however, the fact that RISC architectures are generally
> faster than CISC.
Yes, they are. But, what of EPIC? The target is no longer Alpha.
Bill Gunshannon
But the question is would that hold true if the VAX were being
manufactured in today'sa technology? The very existence of VAX
emulators (the commercial ones) proves that after all this time
there is still a need and a desire to have the VAX architecture
around. And we need not even go into how many PDP-11 systems
both real and emulated are still in operation as well.
Tom Linden
> A lot of software was lost (and was made worse by DEC then selling of
> lots of
> software which was ported) but the transition to Alpha wasn't gratuitous.
> VAX performance even with the best efforts of the Digital engineers just
> couldn't keep up with the competition.
Rubbish, they didn't try. Notice the clock speed on z hardware or x86?
Yes,
I have read Hennessy's paper on the VAX, and I don't agree, based on a
number
of assumptions, likely to justify the mips approach, and don't forget they
sold
a piece to DEC, after that paper.
Tom Linden
<rgilb...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Do consider, however, the fact that RISC architectures are generally
> faster than CISC.
>
Not completely true. For simple things yes. Alpha had a 3:1 bloat factor
over VAX
Ron Johnson
> In article <snip>, "Tom Linden" <t...@kednos.company> writes:
>> On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 19:35:30 -0700, Neil Rieck <n.r...@sympatico.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> We welcomed the move from RSX-11M on PDP-11/44 to go to VMS on VAX but
>>> never thought we'd see anything better until we experienced OpenVMS on
>>> Alpha.
>> Let's not revise history, VMS on Alpha was never quite the same as on VAX,
>> a lot was lost in the gratuitous migration
>>
> A lot of software was lost (and was made worse by DEC then selling of lots of
> software which was ported) but the transition to Alpha wasn't gratuitous.
> VAX performance even with the best efforts of the Digital engineers just
> couldn't keep up with the competition.
Too bad that CISC-over-RISC came after the Alpha was designed...
Richard B. Gilbert
> On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 07:45:18 -0700, Richard B. Gilbert
> <rgilb...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Do consider, however, the fact that RISC architectures are generally
>> faster than CISC.
>>
> Not completely true. For simple things yes. Alpha had a 3:1 bloat
> factor over VAX
>
>
Alpha's generally needed at least three times as much RAM as a VAX to
run the same software. That was because the executables contained more
instructions. We still got a VERY nice speed up!
The VAX architecture was very programmer friendly. The Alpha is less so
if you program in machine language. That's not that big a disadvantage
because very few of us get down to the bare metal or want to. Most of
us just want to get our prompts back in seconds instead of minutes!
I have a VAXstation 4000/VLC and a MicroVAX 3100. I haven't booted
either one in years because I also have an Alphastation 200 and an
Alphastation 600. I use one of the Alphas when I want a VMS prompt!
dav...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk
>In article <FPHVi.12546$ZA....@newsb.telia.net>,
> Jan-Erik Söderholm <jan-erik....@telia.com> writes:
>But the question is would that hold true if the VAX were being
>manufactured in today'sa technology?
You would need to find someway to produce RISC like instructions from the VAX
instructions and pass them to a RISC core (as modern x86 processors do)
only then can you start looking at optimisations such as out of order execution.
As I recall discussions on this subject in comp.arch concluded that this would
be more difficult for the VAX instruction set than for the x86 instruction
set.
Yes with modern chip manufacturing you would get a faster VAX than any which
was ever manufactured but Power and other RISC architectures would still be
much faster.
David Webb
Security team leader
CCSS
Middlesex University
>The very existence of VAX
>emulators (the commercial ones) proves that after all this time
>there is still a need and a desire to have the VAX architecture
>around. And we need not even go into how many PDP-11 systems
>both real and emulated are still in operation as well.
>
Bill Gunshannon
RISC architectures" are all faster than Itanium and yet........
Bob Koehler
>
> a lot was lost in the gratuitous migration
Well, at least there's a company that sells a PL/I compiler.
The only thing different I note on a regular basis is the DBG> prompt
after entering a DCL command when I use ^Y to exit a program I'm
debugging.
dav...@alpha2.mdx.ac.uk
VAX -> Alpha was seen as producing improved performance.
Alpha -> Itanium is seen as a forced move where continued Alpha development
would have produced better performance.
David Webb
Security team leader
CCSS
Middlesex University
>bill
Bob Koehler
> Sadly, we will never know, but I would be most interested in what the
> performance of a VAX (or a PDP-11, for that matter) made with today's
> technology (process size, speed-ups, etc.) would be.
Are you sure about that? I know what the performance of my SIMH
VAXen are. And last I heard someone was still looking at doing an
FPGA based "microcoded" VAX (what goes around comes around).
IMHO an FPGA based VAX could cheaply outperform a 9000. But a lot
of applications will run out of P0 space.