OpenVMS Hobbyist licence - howto
AdeV
Once upon a many a blue moon ago, I used a VAX 8800 (at North Staffs
Polytechnic, as it was then). And, despite the many intervening years, I
still have fond memories of that machine. More recently, I (very
briefly) had to support a Sybase database running on a VAX (can't
remember what model), which rekindled my interest. On the back of that,
I acquired a MicroVAX 3100, which languished in a box for many years.
So, backstory over: I've recently downloaded simh, and got a copy of
OpenVMS7.3 installed and seemingly running; but I don't have a licence.
After much wandering around the 'net, it's obvious I need a hobbyist
licence (I won't be doing anything commercial with the machine, just
reliving happy DCL-related memories).
As far as I can tell, a Hobbyist licence will now cost me $50 (or £45,
being based in Rip-Off-Britain) per year; is that the case, or is it
actually still available free & I'm misreading something somewhere?
Also, what's the swiftest way to obtain the necessary PAK codes
(obviously, I'd like some apps to run on the machine, and ideally some
programming languages over & above DCL)?
Now, my plan is to start off using simh; but eventually, I'd like to
migrate to the real VAX (i.e. the uVAX 3100). I have a variety of dumb
terminals. including a couple of genuine DEC terminals; will I be able
to install using one of those, or will I need a special console? Also;
there's a CDROM in the base unit, but no hard drive. Will any SCSI unit
do, or does it need to be a special DEC item?
Many thanks in advance,
Ade.
PS: Happy christmas/holidays/newyear to all :)
--
Cheers!
Ade.
Jan-Erik Söderholm
> Hi froup,
>
> Once upon a many a blue moon ago, I used a VAX 8800 (at North Staffs
> Polytechnic, as it was then). And, despite the many intervening years, I
> still have fond memories of that machine. More recently, I (very
> briefly) had to support a Sybase database running on a VAX (can't
> remember what model), which rekindled my interest. On the back of that,
> I acquired a MicroVAX 3100, which languished in a box for many years.
>
If it is one of the MV3100/80 or /90 modells, it a nice box.
> As far as I can tell, a Hobbyist licence will now cost me $50 (or ￜ45,
> being based in Rip-Off-Britain) per year; is that the case, or is it
> actually still available free & I'm misreading something somewhere?
As I understand, it's the cost of membership in one of the things
that replaced DECUS. And if I'm not totaly wrong, there use to be
some variant of membership that is free (?).
>
> Also, what's the swiftest way to obtain the necessary PAK codes
> (obviously, I'd like some apps to run on the machine, and ideally some
> programming languages over & above DCL)?
http://www.openvmshobbyist.com/news.php
>
> Now, my plan is to start off using simh; but eventually, I'd like to
> migrate to the real VAX (i.e. the uVAX 3100). I have a variety of dumb
> terminals. including a couple of genuine DEC terminals; will I be able
> to install using one of those, or will I need a special console?
The best/easiest way is to hook up a PC running some VT-emulator to
the console port. Simple file transfers (such as the text mails with
the PAKs) can be transfered thgrough a simple cut-n-paste into
the terminal emulation window (with a "$ CREATE <some-file>" command
first).
> Also;
> there's a CDROM in the base unit, but no hard drive. Will any SCSI unit
> do, or does it need to be a special DEC item?
I guess the VMS FAQ has some info about that.
http://www.hoffmanlabs.com/vmsfaq/
Steven Schweda
> After much wandering around the 'net, [...]
Did you ever wander this far?:
http://www.openvmshobbyist.com/
> As far as I can tell, a Hobbyist licence will now cost me $50 (or £45,
> being based in Rip-Off-Britain) per year; is that the case, or is it
> actually still available free & I'm misreading something somewhere?
I don't know. I got a free DECUS membership long ago, so I
haven't needed to worry about what's true where lately.
> Also, what's the swiftest way to obtain the necessary PAK codes
> (obviously, I'd like some apps to run on the machine, and ideally some
> programming languages over & above DCL)?
http://www.openvmshobbyist.com/viewpage.php?page_id=2
http://www.openvmshobbyist.com/licenses.php
> Now, my plan is to start off using simh; but eventually, I'd like to
> migrate to the real VAX (i.e. the uVAX 3100). I have a variety of dumb
> terminals. including a couple of genuine DEC terminals; will I be able
> to install using one of those, or will I need a special console?
Any normal serial terminal should work.
> Also;
> there's a CDROM in the base unit, but no hard drive. Will any SCSI unit
> do, or does it need to be a special DEC item?
http://www.hoffmanlabs.com/vmsfaq/
Within limits, almost anything should work. A more complete
description than "3100" might be useful in determining those
limits.
Curlsman
Welcome!
Here is the link to the Hobbyist page:
www.openvmshobbyist.org
To get license PAKs for the base OS and layered products for free, you
must belong to an HP user group.
In the UK it looks like that's:
www.hpug.org.uk
But they do seem to charge, all of which is what I expect you've
already found.
My US Connect memeberhsip expires next month, then then I'll find out
if there is a charge this year.
In the past, there was free memebership that allowed use of the
Hobbyist licenses,
and after being unemplyed for almost two years now, I'm sure I'll be
looking for it again.
The DEC terminals should work well for the console, but I've found
that a serial connection to your favorit laptop (Mac or Windo$e) will
help when entering the PAKS. The email sent to you contains a DCL
procedure that can be transferred through a terminal emulator as if
it's being typed. For SIMH, you should be using a good terminal
emulator already...
For the 3100, most lower capacity SCSI disks should work, and there
are some issues with disks large than about 1GB:
http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/541
Sean
Graham Burley
>As far as I can tell, a Hobbyist licence will now cost me $50 (or 45,
>being based in Rip-Off-Britain) per year; is that the case, or is it
>actually still available free & I'm misreading something somewhere?
Hobbyist licenses are available to DECUServe members, and membership
of DECUServe is free (and open to all) - telnet to decuserve.org and
login as REGISTRATION, once you have a DECUServe account
$ help decuserve openvms_hobbyist
or see http://decuserve.org/hobbyist.html
AdeV
Thanks Graham, that's the info I was after... I'd got myself a bit
confused in the whirl of websites...
Now I've joined DECUServe, and am re-aquainting myself with the $
prompt... Time to root out my old University notes, I think...
--
Cheers!
Ade.
AdeV
> AdeV wrote:
>
> > Hi froup,
> >
> > Once upon a many a blue moon ago, I used a VAX 8800 (at North Staffs
> > Polytechnic, as it was then). And, despite the many intervening years, I
> > still have fond memories of that machine. More recently, I (very
> > briefly) had to support a Sybase database running on a VAX (can't
> > remember what model), which rekindled my interest. On the back of that,
> > I acquired a MicroVAX 3100, which languished in a box for many years.
> >
>
> If it is one of the MV3100/80 or /90 modells, it a nice box.
Only a /30, unfortunately; but that's no problem. Any VAX is better than
no VAX... although my own 8800 would be nice.... :D
> > As far as I can tell, a Hobbyist licence will now cost me $50 (or £45,
> > being based in Rip-Off-Britain) per year; is that the case, or is it
> > actually still available free & I'm misreading something somewhere?
>
> As I understand, it's the cost of membership in one of the things
> that replaced DECUS. And if I'm not totaly wrong, there use to be
> some variant of membership that is free (?).
>
> >
> > Also, what's the swiftest way to obtain the necessary PAK codes
> > (obviously, I'd like some apps to run on the machine, and ideally some
> > programming languages over & above DCL)?
>
> http://www.openvmshobbyist.com/news.php
>
> >
> > Now, my plan is to start off using simh; but eventually, I'd like to
> > migrate to the real VAX (i.e. the uVAX 3100). I have a variety of dumb
> > terminals. including a couple of genuine DEC terminals; will I be able
> > to install using one of those, or will I need a special console?
>
> The best/easiest way is to hook up a PC running some VT-emulator to
> the console port. Simple file transfers (such as the text mails with
> the PAKs) can be transfered thgrough a simple cut-n-paste into
> the terminal emulation window (with a "$ CREATE <some-file>" command
> first).
My 3100/30 is missing its back panel... I can see 3x DEC type ports, 1x
25-pin sub-D, and one mystery port; is there a specific "console" one,
or just any of the 3 DEC types?
>
>
>
>
> > Also;
> > there's a CDROM in the base unit, but no hard drive. Will any SCSI unit
> > do, or does it need to be a special DEC item?
>
> I guess the VMS FAQ has some info about that.
>
> http://www.hoffmanlabs.com/vmsfaq/
Thanks, am reading that one now.
Thanks to everyone else for their responses too - I've not got a much
better Clue, and hopefully my next question(s) will not be quite so
Noobish...
--
Cheers!
Ade.
AdeV
> I've not got a much better Clue
Doh, should be "I've _now_ got a much better Clue"
That'll teach me to write in the middle of the night...
--
Cheers!
Ade.
JF Mezei
> My 3100/30 is missing its back panel... I can see 3x DEC type ports, 1x
> 25-pin sub-D, and one mystery port; is there a specific "console" one,
> or just any of the 3 DEC types?
From left to right:
Ethernet AUI port.
Ethernet selector switch
Ethernet thinwire port.
Server-Worstation switch. (*)
Keyboard plug
Din connector (not sure what it was for)
15 pin Video display port.
Serial port 1
Serial port 2
The leftmost dip switch (not sure jhow many there are, only one is
exposed). (*)
Status lights.
Power plugs.
Power switch.
I am not sure anymore which of those 2 switches determine whether the
console os graphical or serial.
Also, above the AUI ethernet port is a SCSI port. There shoudl be a
terminator plugged in it.
Steven Schweda
> From left to right:
>[...]
> Server-Worstation switch. (*)
"S3"? I thought that that was a VAXstation/VAXserver
thing. Consult the FAQ (again)?
> Keyboard plug
> Din connector (not sure what it was for)
> 15 pin Video display port.
Hmmm. Keyboard, <mystery>, graphics. What might that be?
Anyone think that it might be something other than a mouse?
Michael Kraemer
> AdeV wrote:
>
>
>>My 3100/30 is missing its back panel... I can see 3x DEC type ports, 1x
>>25-pin sub-D, and one mystery port; is there a specific "console" one,
>>or just any of the 3 DEC types?
>
>
>
> From left to right:
not quite,
> Ethernet AUI port.
> Ethernet selector switch
> Ethernet thinwire port.
> Server-Worstation switch. (*)
> Keyboard plug
> Din connector (not sure what it was for)
> 15 pin Video display port.
> Serial port 1
> Serial port 2
>
> The leftmost dip switch (not sure jhow many there are, only one is
> exposed). (*)
>
> Status lights.
> Power plugs.
> Power switch.
>
>
> I am not sure anymore which of those 2 switches determine whether the
> console os graphical or serial.
>
> Also, above the AUI ethernet port is a SCSI port. There shoudl be a
> terminator plugged in it.
Ethernet AUI port.
Ethernet selector switch.
Ethernet thinwire port.
Reset Button.
Keyboard plug.
Mouse port.
15 pin Video display port.
Serial port 3 (with the printer symbol, this is the one for the serial
console)
Serial port 2.
S3 switch (up: serial mode, down: "workstation", i.e. video mode).
status lights.
JF Mezei
> Hmmm. Keyboard, <mystery>, graphics. What might that be?
> Anyone think that it might be something other than a mouse?
Oh my... How quickly I forgot. Yep, that would be the mouse ! (The din
like connector).
Bob Eager
>> The best/easiest way is to hook up a PC running some VT-emulator to the
>> console port. Simple file transfers (such as the text mails with the
>> PAKs) can be transfered thgrough a simple cut-n-paste into the terminal
>> emulation window (with a "$ CREATE <some-file>" command first).
>
> My 3100/30 is missing its back panel... I can see 3x DEC type ports, 1x
> 25-pin sub-D, and one mystery port; is there a specific "console" one,
> or just any of the 3 DEC types?
No, it's the printer port you have to use, strangely.
http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/vs3khw.html
>> > Also;
>> > there's a CDROM in the base unit, but no hard drive. Will any SCSI
>> > unit do, or does it need to be a special DEC item?
Most 50 pin SCSI will do, but there's a maximum capacity (probably 1GB or
4GB). I wrote a program to 'downsize' some old disks I had that were a
bit too big.
--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Michael Kraemer
> Most 50 pin SCSI will do, but there's a maximum capacity (probably 1GB or
> 4GB). I wrote a program to 'downsize' some old disks I had that were a
> bit too big.
People say it's 1GB due to firmware limitations
(so once popular disks like the ST51080N
and the IBM DPES31080 will work).
But, strangely enough, I could install Ultrix
on VS3100 /M38 and /M30 models on 4 and 2GB disks,
respectively.
So maybe those limitations hurt VMS, but not Ultrix?
Jan-Erik Söderholm
It will probably "work" as long as you (or the OS) tries to
access (write) to some place > 1GB. At that time, the
write will wrap-around to the beginning of the disk.
Bob Eager
Yes, I have a stock of DPES-31080. But an IBM 0662 was a fraction too
big. Note that this was in terms of what the console firmware reported
(too big, and it gave a silly small number, obviously the size modulo
1GB).
Another machine (VS model 60) tokk 4GB disks, but the IBM DDRS-34560 was
too big before 'modification'.
Michael Kraemer
> It will probably "work" as long as you (or the OS) tries to
> access (write) to some place > 1GB. At that time, the
> write will wrap-around to the beginning of the disk.
I used all of the 2 and 4GB disk's space
for Ultrix' partitions, no problems so far.
Maybe the Ultrix installation doesn't use the VS's firmware
the way VMS does?
IIRC Ultrix boot prepares the installation in RAM
before writing anything to disk, so it might be
invulnerable to the firmware's limitations.
Michael Kraemer
> Yes, I have a stock of DPES-31080. But an IBM 0662 was a fraction too
> big. Note that this was in terms of what the console firmware reported
> (too big, and it gave a silly small number, obviously the size modulo
> 1GB).
>
> Another machine (VS model 60) tokk 4GB disks, but the IBM DDRS-34560 was
> too big before 'modification'.
These 1, 2 and 4GB limits are not uncommon with antique systems.
Ultrix <4.2 can't cope with 1GB+ disks, no version of Ultrix
supports partitions >2GB, HP-UX <=9 doesn't install on disks >2GB,
etc etc.
I wasn't aware the more modern VS4000 line has such limitations too.
Unfortunately disks often are a few MByte larger than the corresponding
2**n-1 limits, which results in the observed "wrap around" numbers.
It seems you're using some "set blocksize" SCSI command to
"shape" the disks accordingly.
Steven Schweda
> Jan-Erik S�derholm schrieb:
>
> > It will probably "work" as long as you (or the OS) tries to
> > access (write) to some place > 1GB. At that time, the
> > write will wrap-around to the beginning of the disk.
The OS is not the problem.
> I used all of the 2 and 4GB disk's space
> for Ultrix' partitions, no problems so far.
> Maybe the Ultrix installation doesn't use the VS's firmware
> the way VMS does?
> IIRC Ultrix boot prepares the installation in RAM
> before writing anything to disk, so it might be
> invulnerable to the firmware's limitations.
As a little FAQ reading should reveal, the problem is not
with the OS, it's with the firmware using short-form SCSI
commands, which wrap at 1GB. (Some older VMS versions have an
OS limit at 8GB. I recall no 4GB limit anywhere.) Using VMS,
as I recall, the troublesome firmware goes into action during
a crash dump. I don't know if Ultrix had the same problem,
but I'd assume so. So, everything will work fine with a
larger disk, until something goes wrong. And then, if the
crash dump region on the disk is not within the first 1GB,
then you can expect something in the first 1GB to get dumped
onto.
Michael Kraemer
> As a little FAQ reading should reveal, the problem is not
> with the OS, it's with the firmware using short-form SCSI
> commands, which wrap at 1GB. (Some older VMS versions have an
> OS limit at 8GB. I recall no 4GB limit anywhere.) Using VMS,
> as I recall, the troublesome firmware goes into action during
> a crash dump. I don't know if Ultrix had the same problem,
> but I'd assume so. So, everything will work fine with a
> larger disk, until something goes wrong. And then, if the
> crash dump region on the disk is not within the first 1GB,
> then you can expect something in the first 1GB to get dumped
> onto.
This doesn't seem to be the complete explanation.
As the other poster has pointed out,
the problem already occurs at boot/installation time,
not just during a crash dump. I did not observe
a similar problem when installing Ultrix 4.5.
And I did not manage to crash my Ultrix/VAX systems yet.
Moreover, IIRC Ultrix lets you allocate the crash dump area
wherever you like, and if this is within the first 1GB,
one should be on the safe side, no?
Steven Schweda
> This doesn't seem to be the complete explanation.
> As the other poster has pointed out,
> the problem already occurs at boot/installation time,
> not just during a crash dump.
Which problem occurs where when? There's no problem
installing VMS on a disk bigger than 1GB, but a crash dump can
corrupt the data if the crash dump region was supposed to be
past the 1GB point, because the firmware can't write out
there, but it _will_ write somewhere.
> I did not observe
> a similar problem when installing Ultrix 4.5.
> And I did not manage to crash my Ultrix/VAX systems yet.
> Moreover, IIRC Ultrix lets you allocate the crash dump area
> wherever you like, and if this is within the first 1GB,
> one should be on the safe side, no?
I know little about Ultrix (and care even less), but the
safe side sounds to me like the place to be.
Richard B. Gilbert
> AdeV wrote:
>
>> My 3100/30 is missing its back panel... I can see 3x DEC type ports, 1x
>> 25-pin sub-D, and one mystery port; is there a specific "console" one,
>> or just any of the 3 DEC types?
>
>
> From left to right:
>
> Ethernet AUI port.
> Ethernet selector switch
> Ethernet thinwire port.
> Server-Worstation switch. (*)
> Keyboard plug
> Din connector (not sure what it was for)
> 15 pin Video display port.
> Serial port 1
> Serial port 2
>
> The leftmost dip switch (not sure jhow many there are, only one is
> exposed). (*)
>
> Status lights.
> Power plugs.
> Power switch.
>
>
> I am not sure anymore which of those 2 switches determine whether the
> console os graphical or serial.
>
Graphics would make it a *VAXStation* 3100. Yes, there was such a thing
in the late 1980s or early 1990s. My employers at the time had one.
If any survive, they are either antiques or paper-weights depending on
your POV.
JF Mezei
> People say it's 1GB due to firmware limitations
The 1GB limitation applies only to the boot drive. This is because (if I
remember correctly) VMS uses the firmware to mount the boot drive,
whereas it uses it own drivers to mount subsequent drives.
The other story I heard is that as long as pagefiles and more
importantlt dump files are within the first 1gb, you will be OK, because
of tye cases where the system crashes and uses the firmare to write the
memory contents to the dump file. (and if those files are located beyond
the first 1gb, the firmware overwrites other files).
Michael Kraemer
>>
> If it's a *MicroVAX* it does not have a graphical console!
>
> Graphics would make it a *VAXStation* 3100. Yes, there was such a thing
> in the late 1980s or early 1990s. My employers at the time had one.
> If any survive, they are either antiques or paper-weights depending on
> your POV.
No idea why you're so disrespectful towards those venerable machines.
In the late 1980s they contributed largely to VMS' popularity.
VS3100 on the desktops were a visible sign of "VMS spoken here",
and true VMS shops usually had quite a bunch of them.
Compare that to the faceless stuff HP provides these days,
or those pitiful emulation-on-Windoze legacy solutions.
Bob Eager
> Graphics would make it a *VAXStation* 3100. Yes, there was such a thing
> in the late 1980s or early 1990s. My employers at the time had one. If
> any survive, they are either antiques or paper-weights depending on your
> POV.
I have one!
Bob Eager
> As a little FAQ reading should reveal, the problem is not
> with the OS, it's with the firmware using short-form SCSI commands,
> which wrap at 1GB. (Some older VMS versions have an OS limit at 8GB. I
> recall no 4GB limit anywhere.)
The 4GB limit I referred to seems to be firmware only. Not the SCSI
commands, but I suspect just the use of unsigned 32 bit values.
Richard B. Gilbert
How about because they are at least three lifetimes old in computer
years! If you're collecting antiques it's a real prize. If you want to
compute something, any Alpha or any modern PC will blow the doors off it!
Back in the 1980s I had other things on my mind. These days I'm
concerned about getting results before I die of old age!
A couple of device drivers were about all the VAX Macro I ever wrote; I
don't miss Macro-32 or the VAX.
JF Mezei
> Which problem occurs where when? There's no problem
> installing VMS on a disk bigger than 1GB,
The problem is that the first step of a clesn install is to use
standalone backup to move saveset B to the boot drive. Standalone backup
does not give you any flexibility on how it initialises the drive (for
instance, whether the critical structures are placed at the beginning,
middle or end of the disk).
If the default is to place the structures at the middle of the drive,
and you have a 2,5gig drive or larger, this means that the critical
structures will be placed beyond the 1gb limit.
Bob Eager
A workaround might be to boot from the more capable VMS root on the CD,
which lets you use INITIALIZE and real BACKUP, perhaps.
JF Mezei
> If it's a *MicroVAX* it does not have a graphical console!
>
> Graphics would make it a *VAXStation* 3100.
Microvax 3100-30 is a very diffent beast from a Vaxstation 3100.
(different memory, CPU etc).
The Vaxstation can be made into a server with the dip switch, at which
point, it makes the serial port the console.
Bob Eager
The printer serial port, that is....
Michael Kraemer
And this is the point where the OS *does* make a difference.
Ultrix by default places the root partition at low block numbers.
With custom partitioning one can as well account for the 1GB limit
as far as root partition and dump file are concerned.
No extra tricks needed here.
Michael Kraemer
> How about because they are at least three lifetimes old in computer
> years! If you're collecting antiques it's a real prize. If you want to
> compute something, any Alpha or any modern PC will blow the doors off it!
>
> Back in the 1980s I had other things on my mind. These days I'm
> concerned about getting results before I die of old age!
Of course it's pointless to compare a 20 year old VS3100
to a modern computer. It was slow even by the standards
of 1990/91.
But your post sounds a bit like it was an exotic piece of c**p
that nobody wanted even back then. This might be true for you
(and me, who preferred RISC boxen for real work anyway),
but among VMSlings it was quite popular. Those who I know
would rather have dumped big iron in favour of a cluster
of VS3100's.
Steven Schweda
> This doesn't seem to be the complete explanation.
> As the other poster has pointed out,
> the problem already occurs at boot/installation time,
> not just during a crash dump.
Yes, but this causes no actual problem with either the
installation or normal operation. The disk corruption occurs
when a crash dump corrupts the disk.
One might argue that "the problem" is the installation of
critical (dump) files in unfortunate places, and that this may
occur during installation, but this is only one interpretation
of "the problem", which is why I posed the question I did,
namely, "Which problem occurs where when?".
Richard B. Gilbert
The VAXstation 3100 was all right for its day. Its day is long gone!
Mike Rechtman
> On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 13:08:00 -0500, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>
>> Graphics would make it a *VAXStation* 3100. Yes, there was such a thing
>> in the late 1980s or early 1990s. My employers at the time had one. If
>> any survive, they are either antiques or paper-weights depending on your
>> POV.
>
> I have one!
>
>
>
as my cdentral log-in point; We need it because we still get calls about V6.2
and UCX!
--
Mike R.
Home: http://alpha.mike-r.com/
QOTD: http://alpha.mike-r.com/php/qotd.php
No Micro$oft products were used in the URLs above, or in preparing this message.
Recommended reading: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#before
bart...@gmail.com
AFAIK, flipping S3 did not change it to a server. I had several
VAXstation 3100-M38's connected to Console Manager and those did not
identify themselves as server.
The only box I remember that morphed into a server was the VAXstation
4000-90 which identified itself as "Unknown VAXserver" when you remove
the graphics adapter. As consequence, its OpenVMS base license was no
longer valid for the box.
Bart
Michael Kraemer
> JF Mezei wrote:
>
>>
>>If the default is to place the structures at the middle of the drive,
>>and you have a 2,5gig drive or larger, this means that the critical
>>structures will be placed beyond the 1gb limit.
>
>
> Yes, but this causes no actual problem with either the
> installation or normal operation. The disk corruption occurs
> when a crash dump corrupts the disk.
>
> One might argue that "the problem" is the installation of
> critical (dump) files in unfortunate places, and that this may
> occur during installation, but this is only one interpretation
> of "the problem", which is why I posed the question I did,
> namely, "Which problem occurs where when?".
The official prescription to install VMS goes like:
MOUNT/FOREIGN dka0:
BACKUP/IMAGE/VERIFY dka400:[0,0]VMS073.B/SAVE_SET dka0:
LOGOUT
then shutdown and reboot the system:
boot dka0:
So if whatever "backup" copies to dka0 is located
above 1GB, the subsequent boot would fail.
If it is guaranteed that those initial file(s)
go to lower blocks (as it is in the Ultrix case),
it might not be a problem. But this is nowhere
documented, AFAIK.
Michael Kraemer
> The VAXstation 3100 was all right for its day. Its day is long gone!
Which is true for VMS too.
So if one bothers dealing with VMS, this would include VS3100.
At least they are genuine VMS boxes.
Steven Schweda
> On Dec 27, 9:21 pm, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> > Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> > > If it's a *MicroVAX* it does not have a graphical console!
> >
> > > Graphics would make it a *VAXStation* 3100.
> >
> > Microvax 3100-30 is a very diffent beast from a Vaxstation 3100.
> > (different memory, CPU etc).
> >
> > The Vaxstation can be made into a server with the dip switch, at which
> > point, it makes the serial port the console.
>
> AFAIK, flipping S3 did not change it to a server. I had several
> VAXstation 3100-M38's connected to Console Manager and those did not
> identify themselves as server.
Try unplugging the keyboard.
Bob Koehler
> People say it's 1GB due to firmware limitations
> and the IBM DPES31080 will work).
> But, strangely enough, I could install Ultrix
> on VS3100 /M38 and /M30 models on 4 and 2GB disks,
> respectively.
> So maybe those limitations hurt VMS, but not Ultrix?
Those limitations hurt if the files needed for booting are not
physically within the limitations. Other files can be outside
the limitations, and a fresh install typically does put the
necessary files within limitations, simply because the OS
doesn't take that much space.
But if you do a backup and restore, or an update to the OS, you may
not be able to guarantee you'll still have all the required files
located within the limitations.
You might be able to guarantee this for UNIX by carefully setting
up partitions. You might be able to fix a VMS disk that won't boot
by connecting it to a different VMS system and carefully using
IO$_MOVE.
Chris Scheers
FWIW:
The real problem is that the VS3100 console uses 6 byte SCSI commands to
address the disk. Using 512 byte blocks, these commands can address 1GB
of disk.
Since VMS 5.3-2, DKDRIVER uses 10 byte SCSI commands, so it can address
a much larger disk.
The console SCSI driver is used to boot the system and to write the
crash dump, so the files it touches need to be in the first 1GB of the
disk. The only writing done by the console SCSI driver (I think) is the
crash dump file, so that is the only file that actually causes corruption.
You can either use a 1GB or smaller drive for a VS3100 boot drive, or
you can partition and format a 1GB chunk at the front of a larger drive
and use the partition for your system drive. (Note that there is no way
to do this with a standard VMS installation.)
For VMS 5.3-2 and later, this restriction does not apply to data disks.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Scheers, Applied Synergy, Inc.
Voice: 817-237-3360 Internet: ch...@applied-synergy.com
Fax: 817-237-3074
Bill Gunshannon
Bob Eager <rd...@spamcop.net> writes:
> On Sun, 27 Dec 2009 13:08:00 -0500, Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
>
>> Graphics would make it a *VAXStation* 3100. Yes, there was such a thing
>> in the late 1980s or early 1990s. My employers at the time had one. If
>> any survive, they are either antiques or paper-weights depending on your
>> POV.
>
> I have one!
>
I have at least a half dozen. :-)
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill...@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
Tim wilkinson
For the last two years I have paid up to the UK HP group just to be able to
get my hobbyist licences. They don't say there is a free way to get them.
Must be rip off Britain at it again
"Graham Burley" <bur...@Encompasserve.org> wrote in message
news:4b3655ae$0$279$1472...@news.sunsite.dk...
> In article <MPG.25a037d67...@news.enta.net>, AdeV
> <sp...@solutionengineers.com> writes:
>
>>As far as I can tell, a Hobbyist licence will now cost me $50 (or 45,
>>being based in Rip-Off-Britain) per year; is that the case, or is it
>>actually still available free & I'm misreading something somewhere?
>
> Hobbyist licenses are available to DECUServe members, and membership
> of DECUServe is free (and open to all) - telnet to decuserve.org and
> login as REGISTRATION, once you have a DECUServe account
> $ help decuserve openvms_hobbyist
> or see http://decuserve.org/hobbyist.html
AdeV
proud owner of a set of VMS & Layered Product licence keys for SimH :)
Unfortunately, I don't have any media for any of the layered products -
the VMS disk I have appears to be a CDR version of an original VMS
disk... IIRC it came with the MicroVax, but it's been used to install on
simh so far...
I should probably get a copy of the Hobbyist kit, as it seems to be
priced fairly enough & I guess the proceeds filter back into the
hobbyist programme; but, is it possible to (for a reasonable price) get
hold of some of the other products? e.g ADA, for which I have several
fond memories (and even more 'orrible nightmares....)
Thanks, again, in advance.
--
Cheers!
Ade.
Simon Clubley
> Interesting information.
>
> For the last two years I have paid up to the UK HP group just to be able to
> get my hobbyist licences. They don't say there is a free way to get them.
>
> Must be rip off Britain at it again
>
Depending on when you asked them, the answer may have been accurate.
At one time, when Connect was still DECUS, you could get an associate
membership in DECUS US for free which allowed you access to the hobbyist
program and this is what I did.
When Connect was formed, the ability to get licenses for free through
Connect was dropped.
Over the last few weeks, DECUServe has become a new way to be able to
obtain a hobbyist license.
Simon. (Also living in the UK).
--
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980's technology to a 21st century world
Simon Clubley
>
> Unfortunately, I don't have any media for any of the layered products -
> the VMS disk I have appears to be a CDR version of an original VMS
> disk... IIRC it came with the MicroVax, but it's been used to install on
> simh so far...
>
> I should probably get a copy of the Hobbyist kit, as it seems to be
> priced fairly enough & I guess the proceeds filter back into the
> hobbyist programme; but, is it possible to (for a reasonable price) get
> hold of some of the other products? e.g ADA, for which I have several
> fond memories (and even more 'orrible nightmares....)
>
I don't use VMS at home these days, so I don't have access to any
modern VMS distributions outside of work, but if you post where in the
UK you are, there may be someone local who can help you.
Simon.
AdeV
> AdeV wrote:
>
> > My 3100/30 is missing its back panel... I can see 3x DEC type ports, 1x
> > 25-pin sub-D, and one mystery port; is there a specific "console" one,
> > or just any of the 3 DEC types?
>
>
> From left to right:
>
> Ethernet AUI port.
> Ethernet selector switch
> Ethernet thinwire port.
> Server-Worstation switch. (*)
> Keyboard plug
> Din connector (not sure what it was for)
> 15 pin Video display port.
> Serial port 1
> Serial port 2
>
> The leftmost dip switch (not sure jhow many there are, only one is
> exposed). (*)
>
> Status lights.
> Power plugs.
> Power switch.
>
>
> I am not sure anymore which of those 2 switches determine whether the
> console os graphical or serial.
>
> Also, above the AUI ethernet port is a SCSI port. There shoudl be a
> terminator plugged in it.
>
Unfortunately, this is a MicroVax - not a VAXStation...
The rear panel, from left to right (as you look at it from the rear):
3x DEC terminal connections
1x Sub-D 25-pin (printer, I assume)
Reset button
Mystery DIP switch
A set of diagnostic lights, awkwardly & partially exposed behind some
case cutouts...
An AUI port
Selector switch
Coax ethernet
Power & power switch
On the upper level, above the Ethernet ports, there's a Centronix-style
SCSI D-plug, with nothing connected to it. In fact, I've not seen any
terminators anywhere.
Annoyingly, I don't think I have a DEC MMJ cable anywhere, and it would
appear that the DB25 port can't be made to be the console on a MicroVax
3100. So, now I've had to order a cable.... which should be here
tomorrow, with luck.
--
Cheers!
Ade.
AdeV
> On 2009-12-29, AdeV <sp...@solutionengineers.com> wrote:
> >
> > Unfortunately, I don't have any media for any of the layered products -
> > the VMS disk I have appears to be a CDR version of an original VMS
> > disk... IIRC it came with the MicroVax, but it's been used to install on
> > simh so far...
> >
> > I should probably get a copy of the Hobbyist kit, as it seems to be
> > priced fairly enough & I guess the proceeds filter back into the
> > hobbyist programme; but, is it possible to (for a reasonable price) get
> > hold of some of the other products? e.g ADA, for which I have several
> > fond memories (and even more 'orrible nightmares....)
> >
>
> I don't use VMS at home these days, so I don't have access to any
> modern VMS distributions outside of work, but if you post where in the
> UK you are, there may be someone local who can help you.
Simon,
Good thinking... I'm based in Wallasey, Merseyside (nr Liverpool, eh
eh); would be willing to travel maybe upto an hour to borrow disks
(after that, it makes more sense to let the postie take the strain)...
I can be e-mailed; change the word "spam" in my e-mail address to
"adev73", and it will get through.
--
Cheers!
Ade.
Bill Gunshannon
don't have any luck get back to me. I have VAX distributions and could
loan you one for the cost of round-trip postage. (Speed depending on
what you want to pay. You could pay more to get it over there fast and
then send it back via the cheapest way as all my gear is packed away
and I don't anticipate needing it again for as much as a year.)
Paul Sture
Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:
> On 2009-12-29, AdeV <sp...@solutionengineers.com> wrote:
> >
> > Unfortunately, I don't have any media for any of the layered products -
> > the VMS disk I have appears to be a CDR version of an original VMS
> > disk... IIRC it came with the MicroVax, but it's been used to install on
> > simh so far...
> >
> > I should probably get a copy of the Hobbyist kit, as it seems to be
> > priced fairly enough & I guess the proceeds filter back into the
> > hobbyist programme; but, is it possible to (for a reasonable price) get
> > hold of some of the other products? e.g ADA, for which I have several
> > fond memories (and even more 'orrible nightmares....)
> >
>
> I don't use VMS at home these days, so I don't have access to any
> modern VMS distributions outside of work, but if you post where in the
> UK you are, there may be someone local who can help you.
>
We are talking VAX here, so the very latest isn't needed.
--
Paul Sture
Simon Clubley
Oops, I didn't remember that bit when posting. I have not touched VAX
boxes at home or work for _many_ years, so I cannot help even with old kits.
Sorry.
Bob Eager
>> I don't use VMS at home these days, so I don't have access to any
>> modern VMS distributions outside of work, but if you post where in the
>> UK you are, there may be someone local who can help you.
>>
> We are talking VAX here, so the very latest isn't needed.
I have the Hobbyist CD, and I'm in the UK. Other kits...they are largely
available for download, as I recall.
Paul Sture
AdeV <sp...@solutionengineers.com> wrote:
e-mail sent
:-)
--
Paul Sture
Paul Sture
"Tim wilkinson" <t...@twsoft.co.uk> wrote:
> Interesting information.
>
> For the last two years I have paid up to the UK HP group just to be able to
> get my hobbyist licences. They don't say there is a free way to get them.
>
> Must be rip off Britain at it again
>
DECUSERVE also offers a wealth of archival information, DECUS SIGtapes,
and DECnotes conferences going back many years.
--
Paul Sture
John Santos
says...>
> Bob Eager schrieb:
>
> > Yes, I have a stock of DPES-31080. But an IBM 0662 was a fraction too
> > big. Note that this was in terms of what the console firmware reported
> > (too big, and it gave a silly small number, obviously the size modulo
> > 1GB).
> >
> > Another machine (VS model 60) tokk 4GB disks, but the IBM DDRS-34560 was
> > too big before 'modification'.
>
> These 1, 2 and 4GB limits are not uncommon with antique systems.
> Ultrix <4.2 can't cope with 1GB+ disks, no version of Ultrix
> supports partitions >2GB, HP-UX <=9 doesn't install on disks >2GB,
> etc etc.
> I wasn't aware the more modern VS4000 line has such limitations too.
I'm 99.99% certain it doesn't. The 6-byte SCSI command limitation
only applied to the firmware on some early 3100's. IIRC. All the
later systems used 10-byte SCSI commands.
>
> Unfortunately disks often are a few MByte larger than the corresponding
> 2**n-1 limits, which results in the observed "wrap around" numbers.
> It seems you're using some "set blocksize" SCSI command to
> "shape" the disks accordingly.
--
John
Bob Eager
> In article <hh7t52$psg$03$1...@news.t-online.com>, M.Kr...@gsi.de
> says...>
>> Bob Eager schrieb:
>>
>> > Yes, I have a stock of DPES-31080. But an IBM 0662 was a fraction too
>> > big. Note that this was in terms of what the console firmware
>> > reported (too big, and it gave a silly small number, obviously the
>> > size modulo 1GB).
>> >
>> > Another machine (VS model 60) tokk 4GB disks, but the IBM DDRS-34560
>> > was too big before 'modification'.
>>
>> These 1, 2 and 4GB limits are not uncommon with antique systems. Ultrix
>> <4.2 can't cope with 1GB+ disks, no version of Ultrix supports
>> partitions >2GB, HP-UX <=9 doesn't install on disks >2GB, etc etc.
>> I wasn't aware the more modern VS4000 line has such limitations too.
>
> I'm 99.99% certain it doesn't. The 6-byte SCSI command limitation only
> applied to the firmware on some early 3100's. IIRC. All the later
> systems used 10-byte SCSI commands.
Pretty sure my VS4000-60 maxes out at 4GB.
But, as I said before (and it seems to have been lost in the welter of
comments) I wasn't suggesting that was because of 6-byte SCSI commands.
However, 4GB would be the limit of an unsigned 32 bit integer, and I
suspect the firmware just wraps at 4GB.
Doesn't matter once it's booted (if it boots) of course.
Paul Sture
<702498c9-1d67-4f4d...@m38g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
"Bart...@gmail.com" <bart...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 27, 9:21�pm, JF Mezei <jfmezei.spam...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> > Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> > > If it's a *MicroVAX* it does not have a graphical console!
> >
> > > Graphics would make it a *VAXStation* 3100.
> >
> > Microvax 3100-30 is a very diffent beast from a Vaxstation 3100.
> > (different memory, CPU etc).
> >
> > The Vaxstation can be made into a server �with the dip switch, at which
> > point, it makes the serial port the console.
>
> AFAIK, flipping S3 did not change it to a server. I had several
> VAXstation 3100-M38's connected to Console Manager and those did not
> identify themselves as server.
IIRC on my old VAXstation 3100 Model 38 S3 simply switched between
graphics and serial port for the console. The previous owner had used it
with a serial line simply for space reasons.
> The only box I remember that morphed into a server was the VAXstation
> 4000-90 which identified itself as "Unknown VAXserver" when you remove
> the graphics adapter. As consequence, its OpenVMS base license was no
> longer valid for the box.
The VAXstation 2000 also declared the licenses insufficient if you
replaced the graphics adaptor with a component for 4 (or more?) serial
ports. It wanted server licenses instead.
--
Paul Sture
Steven Schweda
> Pretty sure my VS4000-60 maxes out at 4GB.
I doubt it. Show me a document with some authority. Or
run an experiment.
> But, as I said before (and it seems to have been lost in the welter of
> comments) I wasn't suggesting that was because of 6-byte SCSI commands.
> However, 4GB would be the limit of an unsigned 32 bit integer, and I
> suspect the firmware just wraps at 4GB.
Wraps _what_? If it's counting disk blocks, and not bytes,
then 4GB loses its magic significance. I've never heard of a
byte-addressable disk.
Bob Eager
It's just a theory. I'm talking about internal counting, not talking to
the disk.
My observation is simply that it reported a DDRS-34560 as a very small
disk indeed. When I modified the disk to report a size fractionally
smaller than 4GB, it then reported that size.
Steven Schweda
> It's just a theory. I'm talking about internal counting, not talking to
> the disk.
Talking to the disk is what's important, isn't it?
> My observation is simply that it reported a DDRS-34560 as a very small
> disk indeed. When I modified the disk to report a size fractionally
> smaller than 4GB, it then reported that size.
Displaying a size is different from talking to the disk.
And what was the important thing?
Bob Eager
You are persistent...it didn't talk to the disk either.
sadness
>> Displaying a size is different from talking to the disk.
>> And what was the important thing?
>
> You are persistent...it didn't talk to the disk either.
that's strange because my vs4k-60 is running out of a 18Gb
scsi disk without trouble.
the firmware will show the disk size as 1.03Gb but i assure you
that it has no trouble talking to the disk, booting VMS, and
it just work without a problem.
i have a dozen of vaxstation 4000 around here, from the small vlc
to full loaded /96, never had problem with disk of 4Gb or more, in
fact the smallest disk i run in this sistem at the moment is a 4.5Gb
one, scaling up to a /96 with a pair of 36Gb in it.
maybe your /60 had an earlier firmware than mine ?
KA46-A V1.1-31E-V4.0
a show dev from firmware report the disk as a 1.03Gb one
DKA200 A/2/0 DISK 1.03GB FX ST31840 0005
but have no trouble using it to start the system ...
>>> boot DKA200
-DKA200
%SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT Mapping the SYSDUMP.DMP on the System Disk
%SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT SYSDUMP.DMP on System Disk successfully mapped
%SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT Mapping PAGEFILE.SYS on the System Disk
%SYSBOOT-I-SYSBOOT SAVEDUMP parameter not set to protect the PAGEFILE.SYS
OpenVMS (TM) VAX Version V7.2 Major version id = 1 Minor version id = 0
and VMS has no trouble with it
Disk DARON$DKA200:, device type SEAGATE ST318404LC, is online, mounted, file-
oriented device, shareable, error logging is enabled.
Error count 0 Operations completed 3908
Owner process "" Owner UIC [SYSTEM]
Owner process ID 00000000 Dev Prot S:RWPL,O:RWPL,G:R,W
Reference count 59 Default buffer size 512
Total blocks 33554432 Sectors per track 165
Total cylinders 33894 Tracks per cylinder 6
as a side note, i have patched a number of 3100 firmware using the patch
made by Wolfang Moeller (http://home.claranet.nl/users/pb0aia/vax/vs-scsi.html)
to "correct" the 1Gb scsi limitation (6 byte addressing) with full success,
running it with 2Gb and 4Gb disk without a problem (so far).
(many thanks to Moeller for is work, i'm also running is patched firmware
with the pk2k scsi driver on a pair of vaxstation 2000, booting and running
it with scsi disk insted of the old mfm one)
--
Giuliano Paolo Brunetti
member of the italian hobbyist DECnet network - decnet.ipv7.net
Bob Eager
> On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 15:46:50 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:
>>> Displaying a size is different from talking to the disk.
>>> And what was the important thing?
>>
>> You are persistent...it didn't talk to the disk either.
>
> that's strange because my vs4k-60 is running out of a 18Gb scsi disk
> without trouble.
> the firmware will show the disk size as 1.03Gb but i assure you that it
> has no trouble talking to the disk, booting VMS, and it just work
> without a problem.
>
> i have a dozen of vaxstation 4000 around here, from the small vlc to
> full loaded /96, never had problem with disk of 4Gb or more, in fact the
> smallest disk i run in this sistem at the moment is a 4.5Gb one, scaling
> up to a /96 with a pair of 36Gb in it.
>
> maybe your /60 had an earlier firmware than mine ?
That was my conclusion. I don't have it available to check right now.
Have you trying dumping the system with a dump destination above the 4GB
mark? That would be my worry, anyway...
Paul Sture
JF Mezei <jfmezei...@vaxination.ca> wrote:
> Steven Schweda wrote:
>
> > Which problem occurs where when? There's no problem
> > installing VMS on a disk bigger than 1GB,
>
> The problem is that the first step of a clesn install is to use
> standalone backup to move saveset B to the boot drive. Standalone backup
> does not give you any flexibility on how it initialises the drive (for
> instance, whether the critical structures are placed at the beginning,
> middle or end of the disk).
>
> If the default is to place the structures at the middle of the drive,
> and you have a 2,5gig drive or larger, this means that the critical
> structures will be placed beyond the 1gb limit.
FWIW I just tried restoring VAX V7.3 saveset B to disk and it did put
the index in the middle.
--
Paul Sture
Michael Kraemer
> FWIW I just tried restoring VAX V7.3 saveset B to disk and it did put
> the index in the middle.
And how large was the disk?
If it's >2GB, you should have been out of luck
from then on, according to working hypothesis.
Chris Scheers
It is possible that it is a firmware issue.
On my 4000-60s and -90, the console reports the disk size modulo 8GB, so
drives larger than 8GB report incorrectly. They still work. I use a
couple of 10GB (8.5GB formatted) drives without problems.
The one problem I do see is that drives with a SCSI INQUIRY string that
is longer than 15 bytes will not autoboot. (I think the error code is
D4.) They will manually boot correctly.
Unfortunately, most newer drives seem to have long INQUIRY strings.
Bob Eager
Yes, I might have thought that...but the same drive, once 'fixed' to
report no more than 4GB, does boot OK, and I'm pretty sure it autoboots.
Lots of different firmware on both sides, no doubt.
bart...@gmail.com
For what it is worth:
I have two FUJITSU M2954S-512 (4 GB) disks in my VAXstation 4000-90.
The console reported the size as 56 MB.
I have just upgraded the console firmware from V1.0 to V1.4 and now
the size is reported correctly.
I have never had any problems booting from these disks and I have done
many fresh installs of many OpenVMS versions on them.
I suppose that similar things apply to other 4000 models.
Regards,
Bart
Chris Scheers
Thinking back, I'm not sure that I tried any disks between 4GB and 8GB
in size. So it is possible that what I was seeing as modulo 8GB was
really modulo 4GB.
In any case, I haven't had a problem with larger drives.
If you have a disk larger than 8GB, VMS 5.5-2 or earlier can have
trouble with it. That is a VMS restriction, not a VS4000 restriction.
Paul Sture
Michael Kraemer <M.Kr...@gsi.de> wrote:
I did it using SIMH. I wasn't trying to get a 3100 to boot, but I was
curious as to what the recommended restore command would do with that
saveset.
--
Paul Sture