OS/2 is Infoworld Reader's Choice winner!
Roger Perkins
OS/2 was voted the Infoworld 1996 Reader's Choice Product of the Year
award for an unprecedented fifth year in a row! This is per an email
Nick Petreley wrote me.
He went on to say:
"However, I don't think we're printing any of the reader's choice awards
this year, partly based on the low turnout, and partly based on the
assumption (or conclusion) that the selection of OS/2 was the result of
an OS/2 user campaign to make it win
again, and therefore doesn't really accurately statistically reflect our
readers' opinions."
I replied to Nick and copied Sandy...@infoworld.com (Editor-in-Chief)
stating this was similar to PC Magazine not publishing the Top 15
Software Titles when OS/2 made the chart. I don't see how OS/2 users
could have influenced the vote in a concerted manner, since visitors to
that portion of the web site have to be registered, and only one vote
per userid is counted (as far as I know.)
If you are unhappy with this editorial license and apparent bias, please
write to Sandy Reed and cc Nicholas...@infoworld.com. It seems
OS/2 rarely gets a fair shake in the printed technical press.
Roger Perkins
rro...@ibm.net
This only reinforces what worthless hunks of shit these so-called "computer"
magazines are (worthless rags) and why I don't consider it worth my time to even
respond to anything they do. I mean lets face it, most of the so called "experts"
who write for these rags are computer laymen at best (journalism or english
majors who are nothing more than hackers). It really amazes me that anyone
gives these publications any consideration at all.
Roger
rj friedman
In message <333B55...@ibm.net> - Roger Perkins <rl...@ibm.net>Fri,
28 Mar 1997 00:21:37 -0500 writes:
Ż
ŻOS/2 was voted the Infoworld 1996 Reader's Choice Product of the Year
Żaward for an unprecedented fifth year in a row! This is per an email
ŻNick Petreley wrote me.
Ż
ŻHe went on to say:
Ż
Ż"However, I don't think we're printing any of the reader's choice awards
Żthis year, partly based on the low turnout, and partly based on the
Żassumption (or conclusion) that the selection of OS/2 was the result of
Żan OS/2 user campaign to make it win
Żagain, and therefore doesn't really accurately statistically reflect our
Żreaders' opinions."
Ż
ŻI replied to Nick and copied Sandy...@infoworld.com (Editor-in-Chief)
Żstating this was similar to PC Magazine not publishing the Top 15
ŻSoftware Titles when OS/2 made the chart. I don't see how OS/2 users
Żcould have influenced the vote in a concerted manner, since visitors to
Żthat portion of the web site have to be registered, and only one vote
Żper userid is counted (as far as I know.)
Ż
ŻIf you are unhappy with this editorial license and apparent bias, please
Żwrite to Sandy Reed and cc Nicholas...@infoworld.com. It seems
ŻOS/2 rarely gets a fair shake in the printed technical press.
I just sent my email off. Not to worry - I was nice and polite about
expressing my dissatisfaction with the decision (I like Nick's work
<g>).
ŻRoger Perkins
________________________________________________________
[RJ] OS/2 - Live it, or live with it.
rj friedman Team ABW
Taipei, Taiwan r...@mail.sysnet.net.tw
________________________________________________________
Kim A. Sommer
Roger Perkins <rl...@ibm.net> wrote:
>OS/2 was voted the Infoworld 1996 Reader's Choice Product of the Year
>award for an unprecedented fifth year in a row! This is per an email
>Nick Petreley wrote me.
>
>He went on to say:
>
>"However, I don't think we're printing any of the reader's choice awards
>this year, partly based on the low turnout, and partly based on the
>assumption (or conclusion) that the selection of OS/2 was the result of
>an OS/2 user campaign to make it win
>again, and therefore doesn't really accurately statistically reflect our
>readers' opinions."
[snip]
>
>If you are unhappy with this editorial license and apparent bias, please
>write to Sandy Reed and cc Nicholas...@infoworld.com. It seems
>OS/2 rarely gets a fair shake in the printed technical press.
I would recommend bouncing this to Lou Gerstner's email box off the
IBM web site. Sometimes stuff like this gets his attention.
Kim
-----------
Kim Sommer //kaso...@kiva.net
/* Aikido, B5, things that go zoom */
Marvin Lichtenthal
Roger Perkins wrote:
>
> OS/2 was voted the Infoworld 1996 Reader's Choice Product of the Year
> award for an unprecedented fifth year in a row! This is per an email
> Nick Petreley wrote me.
>
> He went on to say:
>
> "However, I don't think we're printing any of the reader's choice awards
> this year, partly based on the low turnout, and partly based on the
> assumption (or conclusion) that the selection of OS/2 was the result of
> an OS/2 user campaign to make it win
> again, and therefore doesn't really accurately statistically reflect our
> readers' opinions."
>
>
> write to Sandy Reed and cc Nicholas...@infoworld.com. It seems
> OS/2 rarely gets a fair shake in the printed technical press.
>
I just send off a note.
Seems like this might be a news item if it is true?
--
James Owens
Marvin Lichtenthal (rrs...@ibm.net) writes:
> Roger Perkins wrote:
>> OS/2 was voted the Infoworld 1996 Reader's Choice Product of the Year
>> award for an unprecedented fifth year in a row! This is per an email
>> Nick Petreley wrote me.
>>
>> He went on to say:
>>
>> "However, I don't think we're printing any of the reader's choice awards
>> this year, partly based on the low turnout, and partly based on the
>> assumption (or conclusion) that the selection of OS/2 was the result of
>> an OS/2 user campaign to make it win
>> again, and therefore doesn't really accurately statistically reflect our
>> readers' opinions."
I wrote urging them to assign a reporter to this. If OS/2 users have
skewed the result, shouldn't they be covering the story and finding out
why this solid but under-publicized OS has such a dedicated following
despite the lack of press?
--
James Owens ad...@Freenet.carleton.ca
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
StripThis Beldraen
Roger Perkins <rl...@ibm.net> wrote:
>OS/2 was voted the Infoworld 1996 Reader's Choice Product of the Year
>award for an unprecedented fifth year in a row! This is per an email
>Nick Petreley wrote me.
Can anyone find a link to the awards, please?
Bel, the mostly sane...
Eagles may fly, but weasles don't get sucked into jet engines.
flm...@ibm.net
>award for an unprecedented fifth year in a row! This is per an email
>Nick Petreley wrote me.
>
>
>"However, I don't think we're printing any of the reader's choice awards
>this year, partly based on the low turnout, and partly based on the
>assumption (or conclusion) that the selection of OS/2 was the result of
>an OS/2 user campaign to make it win
>again, and therefore doesn't really accurately statistically reflect our
>readers' opinions."
>
>stating this was similar to PC Magazine not publishing the Top 15
>Software Titles when OS/2 made the chart. I don't see how OS/2 users
>could have influenced the vote in a concerted manner, since visitors to
>that portion of the web site have to be registered, and only one vote
>per userid is counted (as far as I know.)
>
>If you are unhappy with this editorial license and apparent bias, please
>write to Sandy Reed and cc Nicholas...@infoworld.com. It seems
>OS/2 rarely gets a fair shake in the printed technical press.
>
>Roger Perkins
Nick's comments seem reasonable to me but they should publish the comments.
Will there be a readers choice in future years? I find it odd that all the reader's
choice awards would be dropped from print because of some kind of OS/2
campaign.
Jerry Rowe
In <333bf2f0...@news.earthlink.net>, beldraen@(StripThis)mail.earthlink.net (Beldraen) writes:
>Roger Perkins <rl...@ibm.net> wrote:
>
>>OS/2 was voted the Infoworld 1996 Reader's Choice Product of the Year
>>award for an unprecedented fifth year in a row! This is per an email
>>Nick Petreley wrote me.
>
Apparently, according to an email from Infoworld to me, there
will be more in the March 31 issue.
Perhaps we should wait till then ???
-=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=-
Jerry L. Rowe - Certified OS/2 Engineer
Certified OS/2 Lan Server Administrator
Certified OS/2 Lan Server Engineer
jlrowe@{delete.this}iquest.net - http://www.iquest.net/~jlrowe
Team OS/2 - Warping the Internet
-=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=-
Is Microsoft a Tiger?
There once was a lady from Niger
Who smiled as she rode on a Tiger
They returned from the ride
With the lady inside
And the smile on the face of the Tiger.
Steven C. Den Beste
James Owens wrote:
>
> I wrote urging them to assign a reporter to this. If OS/2 users have
> skewed the result, shouldn't they be covering the story and finding out
> why this solid but under-publicized OS has such a dedicated following
> despite the lack of press?
>
> --
> James Owens ad...@Freenet.carleton.ca
> Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
I think this is "dog bites man".
Almost any system you can name will have *some* sort of dedicated
following like this; OS/2 is not particularly unusual in this regard.
(The Amiga has been dead for nearly three years and there is STILL a
nucleus of users.)
This kind of ballot-box-stuffing often indicates desperation, not
anything else in particular.
Roger Perkins
StripThis Beldraen wrote:
>
> Roger Perkins <rl...@ibm.net> wrote:
>
> >OS/2 was voted the Infoworld 1996 Reader's Choice Product of the Year
> >award for an unprecedented fifth year in a row! This is per an email
> >Nick Petreley wrote me.
>
> Can anyone find a link to the awards, please?
>
>
> Eagles may fly, but weasles don't get sucked into jet engines.
There is no link, yet. I just received a short reply from Sandy Reed
regarding my complaint: (aw, what the heck! Here's the ENTIRE email
thread! Enjoy!) [Sorry about the horrible formatting... I don't quite
know how to correct it.)
Subject:
Re: Reader's Choice Awards
Date:
Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:46:22 -0700
From:
"Sandy Reed"<Sandy...@infoworld.com>
To:
rl...@ibm.net
For the full story, read my column in the March 31 issue of InfoWorld.
Sandy Reed
(Embedded
image moved rlp01 @ ibm.net
to file: 03/26/97 04:43 PM
PIC16044.PCX)
Please respond to rl...@ibm.net
To: Nicholas Petreley/IWP
cc: Sandy Reed/IWP
Subject: Re: Reader's Choice Awards
What a shame and a sham! This is akin to PC Magazine not publishing the
Top 15
Software Titles when OS/2 made the list several months in a row! Did
OS/2
users finagle those figures, too?
Readers and advertizers alike are led to believe IW (Infoworld) has a
vast
audience consisting of qualified IS professionals. With that in mind,
let's
look at alternatives for the scenario you outlined:
1. Low voter turnout
a. IW's web page audience is very low?
b. Few people are interested in the topic?
2. OS/2 wins the majority of votes
a. IW's web page audience still believes OS/2 is a superior product?
b. Voters lied through their teeth just to frustrate IW?
c. The majority of IW's web page audience uses OS/2 based solutions?
I'm impressed IW considers OS/2 users have the clout to purposely
influence such a vote, but saddened its editors are such conspiracy
theorists. What if it had gone three votes in favor of NT or W95? Would
IW have printed the results with sad lament for OS/2?
(See
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayArchives.pl?dt_IWE13-96_82.htm)
Surely these votes were not secret? Surely IW could scour its database
to see what titles the voters have entered on their registration forms?
Surely IW can put two and two together and see that IS is not buying the
MS BS? Maybe I ask too much?
So Sandy Reed is going to take up the "OS/2 won again, but..." mantle
from
Stewart Alsop??? I'm glad they didn't ask or persuade you to do it, at
least, Nick.
(See
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayArchives.pl?dt_data13_9.htm,
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayArchive.pl?/96/13/o13-13.106.htm)
I'm going to write Stewart at Fortune, just to nag him about OS/2
again. I trust the news will give him indigestion!
BTW, here's to OS/2's 10th Anniversary on April 2nd! No OS has ever died
so many times!
Roger Perkins
Nicholas Petreley wrote:
>
> Roger,
>
> Peggy may not be dealing with this issue anymore. For what it's worth, I
> think only about 400 people voted on the reader's choice awards, and OS/2
> won as overall product of the year again. However, I don't think we're
> printing any of the reader's choice awards this year, partly based on the
> low turnout, and partly based on the assumption (or conclusion) that the
> selection of OS/2 was the result of an OS/2 user campaign to make it win
> again, and therefore doesn't really accurately statistically reflect our
> readers' opinions. This is the latest I've heard, but there may be more
> or less to this story. I believe Sandy Reed is going to address thisissue
> in a column.
>
> -Nick
>
>
>
> Please respond to rl...@ibm.net
>
> To: Nicholas Petreley/IWP
> cc: Peggy Wallace/IWP
> Subject: Re: Reader's Choice Awards
>
> Nicholas Petreley wrote:
> >
> > Roger,
> >
> > I don't have any idea about how that is being handled. I'll pass this
on > > to Peggy Wallace, who may know.
> >
> > -Nick
> >
> >
>
> >
> > Please respond to rl...@ibm.net
> >
> > To: Nicholas Petreley/IWP
> > cc:
> > Subject: Reader's Choice Awards
> >
> > I've been checking in here nearly every day, hoping to see the results
> > of your Reader's Choice voting. Are the votes tabulated yet? When
will
> > they be public?? It certainly was an interesting mix of posts on the
> > forum before it was pulled...
> >
> > Roger
> >
>
> I never did get a response from Peggy on this, but judging from last
> year, the results should be forthcoming in next week's issue, no? Care
> to give me advance notice? (My paper copies seem to be coming on
> Fridays now, 4 days late!)
>
> Roger Perkins
Tim Smith
James Owens <ad...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>I wrote urging them to assign a reporter to this. If OS/2 users have
>skewed the result, shouldn't they be covering the story and finding out
>why this solid but under-publicized OS has such a dedicated following
>despite the lack of press?
It depends on how many responses they got. If there were 50,000 votes,
and 30,000 were for OS/2, then there is an interesting story there they
should investigate. If, on the other extreme, there were 10 votes, and
six for OS/2, then there's no story (except possibly one on how no one cares
about taking their survey!).
--Tim Smith
Roger Perkins
Here's the final word from Sandy Reed at Infoworld. In fact, this is my
entire email thread with them concerning this subject. Sorry about the
bad formatting, but I don't know how to fix it.
>Subject:
> Re: Reader's Choice Awards
> Date:
> Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:46:22 -0700
> From:
> "Sandy Reed"<Sandy...@infoworld.com>
> To:
> rl...@ibm.net
>
>
>
>For the full story, read my column in the March 31 issue of InfoWorld.
>Sandy Reed
[snipped PCX graphic]
James Owens
Tim Smith (t...@halcyon.com) writes:
> James Owens <ad...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
The sample would have to be significant whatever the outcome. I'd like to
think that if they got ten votes and eight were for Win95, they'd also drop
publication.
Do they usually report sample size and probability of accuracy for the
Reader's Choice? If there's no way of controlling the accuracy then it's
always been a waste of time -- what's so special about this year's poll?
Anyway, the answer is supposed to be in a March 31 column. A column, mark
you, not an article -- that means less visibility and less authority,
since columns tend to be perceived as ill-researched and opinionated
editorial ego-trips, and they go largely unadvertised on the cover and
table of contents.
Bernard B. Yoo
Steven C. Den Beste ("sdenbest@NOSPAM"@qualcomm.com) wrote:
: James Owens wrote:
: >
: > I wrote urging them to assign a reporter to this. If OS/2 users have
: > skewed the result, shouldn't they be covering the story and finding out
: > why this solid but under-publicized OS has such a dedicated following
: > despite the lack of press?
: > --
: I think this is "dog bites man".
: Almost any system you can name will have *some* sort of dedicated
: following like this; OS/2 is not particularly unusual in this regard.
: (The Amiga has been dead for nearly three years and there is STILL a
: nucleus of users.)
I don't think OS/2's situation is comparable to Amiga's situation. For
example:
- Does Amiga have a growing user base?
- Is AmigaOS updated on a regular basis?
- Is new hardware for Amiga being sold?
It is true that OS/2 has *some* sort of dedicated following, however,
this following is much larger and much more significant than that of
the Amiga. This following is supported by a growing number of ISV's
that write OS/2 applications and the largest base of existing native
32-bit consumer applications for x86 systems (based on what is found
in retail software catalogs).
InfoWorld's decision not to publish the Readers' Choice Awards because
OS/2 won Product of the Year again is like the story of the ISV who
said (paraphrasing), "Nobody uses OS/2 anymore, so why don't all of
you stop asking for an OS/2 version of this program".
: This kind of ballot-box-stuffing often indicates desperation, not
: anything else in particular.
The InfoWorld survey was done very carefully. To participate in the
survey, readers had to have registered to be able to use the special
features of the InfoWorld Web site, including forums and the Readers'
Choice Awards. So, the ballot box was "stuffed" with no more than one
vote per registered InfoWorld reader.
The only "desperation" this indicates, is the desire for OS/2 not
to get unfair press coverage. Or not to unfairly get a lack of press
coverage.
--
+-----------------------------------+-------------------------+
| Bernard B. Yoo - ber...@rice.edu |
| Athena 4 Design Team - Team Wiess! |
| SAE Aero / MECH 407/408 - Rice University |
+-----------------------------------+-------------------------+
Bernard B. Yoo
Bernard B. Yoo (ber...@rice.edu) wrote:
[snip]
: The InfoWorld survey was done very carefully. To participate in the
: survey, readers had to have registered to be able to use the special
: features of the InfoWorld Web site, including forums and the Readers'
: Choice Awards. So, the ballot box was "stuffed" with no more than one
Actually, let me qualify the above statement by adding, "If I recall
correctly...."
Jerry Rowe
My latest of two emails to Sandy:
==================================================
On Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:36:53 -0700, Sandy Reed wrote:
Just wondering Sandy, why are you not covering the MicroSquashing of
Citrix?
You may recall that Microsoft decided to appropriate the company
and/or software at bargain basement prices. Having failed an outright
unfair deal, they will succeed by other means.
Microsoft has utterly killed the price of Citrix stock by the open
threat to make similar software if they cannot buy it at their own
pre-determined bargain basement price.
In another story [see NASDAQ for both of these] Geoworks [GWRX stock]
may be close to being Microsquashed as well. They struggled valiantly
by trying to sidestep the behemoth for years, moving from Desktop
software, to PDA's, to cell phones etc. But now the stock, IPO'd at
$6, and having grown to $40 to $50 as I recall, has precipitously
dropped to about $6 or so.
Geoworks, if you did not know, brought out a GUI OS in 1992 which was
true pre-emptive multitasking, and ran on as little as a XT with 640k
RAM. It also had a low end GUI desktop suite. The newest version of
all that is available as shareware [since GW had to get out of the
desktop market]. They were forced out because of the restrictive
pre-loading deals that Microsoft made with PC manufacturers. The
plain fact is the could not sell product because Microsoft made deals
behind the scenes precluding fair competition. It is precisely the
same thing that happened to DRDos, Apple Mac, and now happening to
OS/2.
Check out www.caldera.com for the DRDos story, to which I *agree*
because I experienced it myself. I could NOT purchase a PC preloaded
with DRDos because of the restrictive preloads.
BTW, the Geoworks people were interviewed on that TV special awhile
back called "Tycoon".
It's really too bad about Geoworks [and the others] as they gave us a
product that required *less* machine to run on and give good
performance. Rather than the customer tied into an ever increasing
spiral of software and hardware upgrades, Geoworks would have given
us superior power on the smallest of machines.
You can still try it, but you may have to hurry.
http://www.newdealinc.com has the shareware download and the product
to buy.
So, it's rather unfair to the customer. We are indeed not getting
what we want, but rather what they want us to give them money for. It
is ironic and symptomatic that we did not hear a word of Zero Admin
from Microsoft or Intel until a **competitor** [or someone who hoped
to be anyway] introduced the idea with the network computer. Instead,
they would have us buy the latest MS product, such as Office at 150MB
or so, and hardly cheap in any point of consideration.
Maybe of these days, if the magazine editors of the world ever come
out of their trance, they will wish Microsoft had some real
competition. Even just one competitor. Until the DOJ comes out of
their trance, there is probably no hope for the innovation and
progress we *could* have had. What we have now is not much different
than the Capone protection schemes of the 30's. Ie., buy only from us
and you can stay in business. Otherwise...., well we'll see you [and
buy you] in bankrupcy court.
>
>For the full story, read my column in the March 31 issue of InfoWorld.
>Sandy Reed
Well, I just saw it. I still don't believe that a rather small number
of OS/2 zealots can begin to overwhelm the much greater number of Win
advocates.
In comp.os.os2.advocacy a large number of the posts are from Win
advocates [often just a handful of them post 20 or 30%, mostly
outright lies and harrassment].
Ed Ross
>
> >>I wrote urging them to assign a reporter to this. If OS/2 users have
> >>skewed the result, shouldn't they be covering the story and finding out
> >>why this solid but under-publicized OS has such a dedicated following
> >>despite the lack of press?
>
> > and 30,000 were for OS/2, then there is an interesting story there they
> > should investigate. If, on the other extreme, there were 10 votes, and
> > six for OS/2, then there's no story (except possibly one on how no one cares
> > about taking their survey!).
>
> The sample would have to be significant whatever the outcome. I'd like to
> think that if they got ten votes and eight were for Win95, they'd also drop
> publication.
>
> Do they usually report sample size and probability of accuracy for the
Seems the press can predict who will be the next president on as little
as 300 persons polled - out of 250,000,000. Why can't IW do something
with 300 out of 10-20 million. They should contact Clinton for advise
on polling and voting. :)
joseph
Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
> This kind of ballot-box-stuffing often indicates desperation, not
> anything else in particular.
I think FUD is a greater sign of desperation.
Any more negative specualtion on the OS/2 market Steve?
--
Joseph Coughlan
Replies are welcome at joseph_...@otter.montery.edu
Kevin McCrory
In message <5hhq7a$3j6$1...@thefuture.qualcomm.com> - "Steven C. Den Beste"
<"sdenbest@NOSPAM"@qualcomm.com> writes:
The interesting thing about this is that the Infoworld survey was never
publicised in any of the OS/2 news groups nor any of the list servers that I
belong to. I happen to read Infoworld's web site every so often and stumbled
across the survey. I find it hard to believe that there would be a balot
stuffing campaign when it wasn't publicised.
OS/2 Server is in fact the number two installed NOS behind Novell.
Kevin
:>
:>James Owens wrote:
:>>
:>> I wrote urging them to assign a reporter to this. If OS/2 users have
:>> skewed the result, shouldn't they be covering the story and finding out
:>> why this solid but under-publicized OS has such a dedicated following
:>> despite the lack of press?
:>>
:>> --
:>> James Owens ad...@Freenet.carleton.ca
:>> Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
:>
:>
:>I think this is "dog bites man".
:>
:>Almost any system you can name will have *some* sort of dedicated
:>following like this; OS/2 is not particularly unusual in this regard.
:>(The Amiga has been dead for nearly three years and there is STILL a
:>nucleus of users.)
:>
:>This kind of ballot-box-stuffing often indicates desperation, not
:>anything else in particular.
Richard Steiner
Here in comp.os.os2.advocacy, jlr...@holli.com (Jerry Rowe)
spake unto us, saying:
>My latest of two emails to Sandy:
>
>==================================================
>On Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:36:53 -0700, Sandy Reed wrote:
>
>Just wondering Sandy, why are you not covering the MicroSquashing of
>Citrix?
IMhO, the use of phrases such as "MicroSquashing" when writing to the
press are not particularly constructive. The rest of the note looked
very good, though...
--
-Rich Steiner >>>---> rste...@skypoint.com >>>---> Bloomington, MN
Written offline using PC Yarn + Yep + FTE under OS/2 Warp 4
HELP! I've crashed...AND I CAN'T BOOT UP!
The OS/2 Guy
joseph wrote:
>
> Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
>
> > anything else in particular.
>
>
> Any more negative specualtion on the OS/2 market Steve?
>
> --
> Joseph Coughlan
> Replies are welcome at joseph_...@otter.montery.edu
This is too funny. We all ride these newsgroups daily, do
you recall anyone putting out a cry to stuff InfoWorld's ballot
box? Warp City is one of the largest OS/2 Only Web Sites
on the Internet and I can't recall one time anyone associated
with Warp City mentioning anything about InfoWorld's silly poll.
And God knows, had we known we would have certainly encouraged
our average of 600 vistors and members who visit daily to hit
InfoWorld to vote. We didn't! Now THAT's funny!
This much I can say: if OS/2 users did stuff the ballot box
then we're mighty fine folk totally dedicated to our operating
system. You'd think those who use the weaker Windows 95 or
the less than stellar Windows NT would -especially with the
Microsoft Marketing Department pumping out press releases
claiming 70 million units of Windows 95 shipped- have needed
as little as 20% of their numbers to out stuff us. Just goes
to show you the difference between units "shipped" and actual
products "sold", as OS/2 is over the counter!
Sandy Reed's whining and cry of "null and void" is sour
grapes pure and simple. How on earth do the Windows
evangelists explain their failure to win a simple voting
poll with their "supposed" overwhelming numbers?
What is this? The SIXTH year in a row OS/2 is chosen
as InfoWorld's Reader's Choice for Product of the Year?
Did InfoWorld actually think Windows 95 or Windows NT
would be given such an honor? Are they crazy?
--
The OS/2 Guy
os2...@warpcity.com
http://www.warpcity.com
Home of Warp City Online Services
--------------------------------------
Dictated using Warp 4's Built-in VTD Software
Chris J. Alumbaugh
:>
:>James Owens wrote:
:>>
:>> I wrote urging them to assign a reporter to this. If OS/2 users have
:>> skewed the result, shouldn't they be covering the story and finding out
:>> why this solid but under-publicized OS has such a dedicated following
:>> despite the lack of press?
:>>
:>> --
:>> James Owens ad...@Freenet.carleton.ca
:>> Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
:>
:>
:>I think this is "dog bites man".
:>
:>Almost any system you can name will have *some* sort of dedicated
:>following like this; OS/2 is not particularly unusual in this regard.
:>(The Amiga has been dead for nearly three years and there is STILL a
:>nucleus of users.)
:>
:>anything else in particular.
Ballot stuffing has yet to be proven.
If proven, what difference does it make? Everybody had a chance to vote i
suppose, and if ballots were able to be stuffed, then everybody most
likely could stuff them.
Chris J. Alumbaugh
********************************
As it is SPOKEN.. so it appears
OS/2 Warp 4.0 and Voice Dictation
********************************
* my email address in the header has been hacked*
* please shift all letters 1 letter to the right*
*to decipher correct address to reply by email*
Steven C. Den Beste
James Owens wrote:
> Do they usually report sample size and probability of accuracy for the
> always been a waste of time -- what's so special about this year's poll?
"Probability of accuracy" is meaningless in a self-selected sample.
> Anyway, the answer is supposed to be in a March 31 column. A column, mark
> you, not an article -- that means less visibility and less authority,
> since columns tend to be perceived as ill-researched and opinionated
> editorial ego-trips, and they go largely unadvertised on the cover and
> table of contents.
The editorial of which you speak is online now at:
http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/reed/reed.htm
It's titled "Help us reclaim Readers' Choice Product of the Year awards
from OS/2 zealots" which should give you some idea of the tone of the
editorial.
Thomas Gamble
:>
:>James Owens wrote:
:>>
:>> I wrote urging them to assign a reporter to this. If OS/2 users have
:>> skewed the result, shouldn't they be covering the story and finding out
:>> why this solid but under-publicized OS has such a dedicated following
:>> despite the lack of press?
:>>
:>> --
:>> James Owens ad...@Freenet.carleton.ca
:>> Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
:>
:>
:>I think this is "dog bites man".
:>
:>Almost any system you can name will have *some* sort of dedicated
:>following like this; OS/2 is not particularly unusual in this regard.
:>(The Amiga has been dead for nearly three years and there is STILL a
:>nucleus of users.)
:>
:>This kind of ballot-box-stuffing often indicates desperation, not
:>anything else in particular.
From what I've seen and read and given Infoworld's voting setup, ballot
stuffing would not be possible(or easy enough to be worth the effort).
Perhaps this is an indication that OS/2 users are satisfied enough with their
systems to vote and MS users are not.
Cheers,
Tom
Jerry Rowe
In <hCfPzoHp...@skypoint.com>, rste...@skypoint.com (Richard Steiner) writes:
>Here in comp.os.os2.advocacy, jlr...@holli.com (Jerry Rowe)
>spake unto us, saying:
>
>>My latest of two emails to Sandy:
>>
>>==================================================
>>On Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:36:53 -0700, Sandy Reed wrote:
>>
>>Just wondering Sandy, why are you not covering the MicroSquashing of
>>Citrix?
>
>IMhO, the use of phrases such as "MicroSquashing" when writing to the
>press are not particularly constructive. The rest of the note looked
>very good, though...
Perhaps I should have [in retrospect] detailed the first usage of
'microsquash' that I ever heard. It was by a Geoworks insider,
who commented in personal email to me that they had:
"a 50/50 % chance of being microsquashed"
That was 3 or 4 years ago, and I probably have a copy of the
email, although is would hardly be worth the time to find it.
And it was personal anyway. Here in this context, it would also
be impossible for anyone but the two of us to prove who he was,
so it still preserves his anonymity. In looking back, his
percentages were way off, and he was giving too much to their
chances of survival.
James Owens
Jerry Rowe (jlr...@holli.com) writes:
>>For the full story, read my column in the March 31 issue of InfoWorld.
>>Sandy Reed
> Well, I just saw it. I still don't believe that a rather small number
> of OS/2 zealots can begin to overwhelm the much greater number of Win
> advocates.
For the benefit of those of us who haven't yet seen the issue and can't
find one on Easter Sunday, could you please summarize the main points?
Matt Ion
In message <5hijuc$b36$1...@joe.rice.edu> - ber...@rice.edu (Bernard B.
Yoo)29 Mar 1997 08:30:04 GMT writes:
>
>InfoWorld's decision not to publish the Readers' Choice Awards because
>OS/2 won Product of the Year again is like the story of the ISV who
>said (paraphrasing), "Nobody uses OS/2 anymore, so why don't all of
>you stop asking for an OS/2 version of this program".
I remember that one, sort of. Don't remember the product, exactly (was
it Netscape???), but the quote was even more absurd that above...
something like, "Nobody wants an OS/2 version of <product>, and we wish
all you people would stop asking for it."
============================================================
"Not responsible for listeners who spontaneously combust."
Brought to you by the letters O and S, and the number 2.
Matt "Soundy" Ion
Beautiful Vancouver, BC
============================================================
Pieter Dubois
Bernard B. Yoo wrote:
<snip>
> I don't think OS/2's situation is comparable to Amiga's situation. For
> example:
> - Does Amiga have a growing user base?
> - Is AmigaOS updated on a regular basis?
> - Is new hardware for Amiga being sold?
I just read (computerworld?) Gateway is trying to buy the remnants of
Amiga and bring it out themselves.
--
Pieter Dubois
___________________________________
Disclaimer ... which Disclaimer?
Didn't you read my name?
WARNING : E-mail adress prohibited for usage in mailinglists without
strict permission of owner (me).
Unsollicited usage agrees in paying 1000$ for each time used to me by
the offender.
Pieter Dubois
Steven C. Den Beste wrote:
<snip>
>
> Almost any system you can name will have *some* sort of dedicated
> following like this; OS/2 is not particularly unusual in this regard.
> (The Amiga has been dead for nearly three years and there is STILL a
> nucleus of users.)
>
> This kind of ballot-box-stuffing often indicates desperation, not
> anything else in particular.
But it proves at least there are more than enough OS/2 users to get some
sort of ballot stuffing. It also could be, Infoworld is read by more
OS/2 users than Windows flavour users.
Perhaps Infoworld should change it's politics and cover OS/2 a bit more.
Jerry Rowe
Richard Steiner
>In <hCfPzoHp...@skypoint.com>, rste...@skypoint.com
>(Richard Steiner) writes:
>
>>IMhO, the use of phrases such as "MicroSquashing" when writing to the
>>press are not particularly constructive. The rest of the note looked
>>very good, though...
>
>Perhaps I should have [in retrospect] detailed the first usage of
>'microsquash' that I ever heard. It was by a Geoworks insider,
>who commented in personal email to me that they had:
>
>"a 50/50 % chance of being microsquashed"
Heh. Yeah, as a long-time GeoFan myself (I used Ensemble in its various
incarnations from sometime in late 1990 through the release of the VESA
drivers for GWE 2.01 before moving from my beloved GeoWrite to DeScribe),
I know pretty well that the OS/2 community is hardly the only one to
spawn such phrases.
She, however, might not have that perspective. <shrug>
--
-Rich Steiner >>>---> rste...@skypoint.com >>>---> Bloomington, MN
Written offline using PC Yarn + Yep + FTE under OS/2 Warp 4
Support search and rescue -- get lost. :-)
kiy...@ibm.net
In <333DC9...@warpcity.com>, The OS/2 Guy <os2...@warpcity.com> writes:
... re: ballot box stuffing.
>
>What is this? The SIXTH year in a row OS/2 is chosen
>as InfoWorld's Reader's Choice for Product of the Year?
>Did InfoWorld actually think Windows 95 or Windows NT
>would be given such an honor? Are they crazy?
>
>--
>The OS/2 Guy
>os2...@warpcity.com
>http://www.warpcity.com
>Home of Warp City Online Services
>--------------------------------------
>Dictated using Warp 4's Built-in VTD Software
I don't recall seeing any call for stuffing either.
Related to this issue. I hang out on some mainframe newsgroups and
websites and I'm surprised at the large number of people with mailer's
and brower's that report themselves to be OS/2 based. I think W95 W32
has a large 'unwashed' following, kind of the OS of the trailer park and
K-mart set (let's see, have I not insulted anyone?) but OS/2 and Merlin
has a higher class of user, a more industrial strength, sophisticated,
and intelligent user base.
Cory Hamasaki Kiyo Design, Inc http://www.kiyoinc.com
HHResearch Co. 11 Annapolis St. OS/2 Webstore & Newsletter
REDWOOD Annapolis, Md, 21401 (410) 280-1942
James Owens
Jerry Rowe (jlr...@holli.com) writes:
>>For the benefit of those of us who haven't yet seen the issue and can't
>>find one on Easter Sunday, could you please summarize the main points?
> http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/reed/reed.htm
Thanks.
I just took a quick look at Dejanews, but I could not find a single
posting advising OS/2 users of an upcoming Reader's Choice Award.
I suppose if the Awards are a regular event, regular readers would have
known. But you would think that if they wanted the ballot stuffed, they
would have called on their compatriots in this group.
I suppose, too, that they could have been crafty and done it by e-mail,
but then why are they not equally subtle about stuffing the Browserwatch
box?
rj friedman
In message <5hku02$r...@tierra.santafe.edu> - tga...@roadrunner.com
(Thomas Gamble)30 Mar 1997 05:33:54 GMT writes:
Ż
ŻFrom what I've seen and read and given Infoworld's voting setup, ballot
Żstuffing would not be possible(or easy enough to be worth the effort).
ŻPerhaps this is an indication that OS/2 users are satisfied enough with their
Żsystems to vote and MS users are not.
Perhaps this is an indication that, in spite of all the oceans of ink
the `industry pundits' and `industry analysts' have poured onto the
pages of these trade rags (and rag may be too soft a word), trying to
sell NT for MS, NT is not anywhere near anyone's OS of choice.
ŻTom
________________________________________________________
[RJ] OS/2 - Live it, or live with it.
rj friedman Team ABW
Taipei, Taiwan r...@mail.sysnet.net.tw
________________________________________________________
rj friedman
In message <5hmte8$nk0$1...@news.iquest.net> - jlr...@holli.com (Jerry
Rowe)30 Mar 1997 23:36:40 GMT writes:
Ż
Ż>For the benefit of those of us who haven't yet seen the issue and can't
Ż>find one on Easter Sunday, could you please summarize the main points?
Żthe full meal deal is at:
Żhttp://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/reed/reed.htm
That editorial has to rank as one of the most obnoxious pieces of
self-serving red baiting I've come across since the days when Joe
McCarthy was doing his dance.
ŻJerry L. Rowe - Certified OS/2 Engineer
Thomas Nagy
In <5hn7nb$1af0$2...@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>, kiy...@ibm.net writes:
>Related to this issue. I hang out on some mainframe newsgroups and
>websites and I'm surprised at the large number of people with mailer's
>and brower's that report themselves to be OS/2 based. I think W95 W32
>has a large 'unwashed' following, kind of the OS of the trailer park and
>K-mart set (let's see, have I not insulted anyone?) but OS/2 and Merlin
>has a higher class of user, a more industrial strength, sophisticated,
>and intelligent user base.
>
>Cory Hamasaki Kiyo Design, Inc http://www.kiyoinc.com
I believe everybody in this newsgroup (except the windvocates)
tend to agree with this statement :)
Thomas Nagy
William E. Ganz
> This is too funny. We all ride these newsgroups daily, do
> you recall anyone putting out a cry to stuff InfoWorld's ballot
> box? Warp City is one of the largest OS/2 Only Web Sites
> on the Internet and I can't recall one time anyone associated
Funny, I seem to recall that Apple won best service award for some
magazine(BYTE?) after Mac users stuffed the ballot box. The editors did
point out that the results were skewed due to ballot stuffing but gave the
award due to the fanaticism of the users.
Are OS/2 users regarded as lesser users than the Mac users since OS/2 is
not as regarded as "kool" as the Mac? Just wondering about the different
slant given in different magazines.
James Jones
In article <5hi2hn$l...@freenet-news.carleton.ca> ad...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (James Owens) writes:
>Do they usually report sample size and probability of accuracy for the
>Reader's Choice? If there's no way of controlling the accuracy then it's
>always been a waste of time -- what's so special about this year's poll?
Exactly right. Surveys/polls with self-selected respondents are
notoriously bogus; this is very basic informmation that should be
known by anyone doing a poll or survey, so it makes no sense for
InfoWorld to be suddenly worried about representative samples after
conducting their "Reader's Choice" that way for years.
James Jones
Opinions herein are those of the author, and not necessarily those of
any organization.
Steven C. Den Beste
rj friedman wrote:
>
> In message <5hmte8$nk0$1...@news.iquest.net> - jlr...@holli.com (Jerry
> Rowe)30 Mar 1997 23:36:40 GMT writes:
> Ż
>
> Ż>For the benefit of those of us who haven't yet seen the issue and can't
> Ż>find one on Easter Sunday, could you please summarize the main points?
>
> Żthe full meal deal is at:
> Żhttp://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/reed/reed.htm
>
> That editorial has to rank as one of the most obnoxious pieces of
> self-serving red baiting I've come across since the days when Joe
> McCarthy was doing his dance.
How old ARE you, anyway? You actually REMEMBER the McCarthy era?
--
Steven C. Den Beste (Gentleman, scholar)
sden...@san.rr.com
sden...@qualcomm.com
Jason
James Owens (ad...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
:
: Jerry Rowe (jlr...@holli.com) writes:
:
: >>For the benefit of those of us who haven't yet seen the issue and can't
: >>find one on Easter Sunday, could you please summarize the main points?
:
: > http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/reed/reed.htm
:
: Thanks.
:
: I just took a quick look at Dejanews, but I could not find a single
: posting advising OS/2 users of an upcoming Reader's Choice Award.
:
choice award and hoping OS/2 would win again. It might not have even
been in advocacy. It is not a campaign or anything. The press only
wants to prints what people want to here. But I feel that a title of
"OS/2 beats MS Windows for the fifth year" would generate a lot more
readers (mad or happy) then the usual article titles of "Windows NT is
getting Stronger..."
-Jason
f...@cnit.nsu.ru
kiy...@ibm.net writes:
> I don't recall seeing any call for stuffing either.
Read the editorial on the Infoworld page. They got a reason right,
but tried to shift the blame to OS/2 users. Here is my take on what
actually happened:
Normally, only little fraction of IW readers vote in Readers Choice ballot.
My guess that this fraction is seriously smaller than 1/6.
In '96 April issue Stewe Alsop published an editorial where he said
that OS/2 won't make the Readers Chioce again. Naturally, OS/2 users
who have read that got angry and many of them who never voted in
previous years did a vote. "Many" in this context is six times more
voters than normally.
Technically it wasn't a stuffing, because there still was a vote per
a reader; however certain group of users was more likely to vote than
normally. And it wasn't a call by OS/2 fanatics, Steve Alsop made such
a call by himself (may be not intentionally) and he is who to blame.
"Overvoting" by loyal OS/2 users is a natural reaction to the article
and I don't beleive Alsop couldn't foresee this effect. Seriously,
any comment on the result of self-selected survey will change the
result of the next survey on the topic. A _prediction_ of the
results might influence the results up to the point of making them
invalid. I think, aftershocks of that prediction and this year crap
will exist for several years from now.
I do not see a way how Infoworld might get out of this situation
without losing a face, especially after a current editorial article.
If not for an editorial, they could print the results _without_ _any_
_comment_ and pray that aftershock effects will fade in year or two.
Another way would be to print an editorial that predicts OS/2 winning
surveys until end of the century :) - that should create more voting
from non-OS/2 users.
However with the crap they did this year I see no way out.
Methods that are suggested in the article, like substituting a
"scientific survey" or filtering OS/2 votes do completely defeat
a whole point of Readers Choice, because after that it'll become
a Scientific Choice or Filtered Choice. Latest is utter nonsence
and brings memories of Soviet Union, Nazist Germany and Ministery
of Truth).
--
Cheers,
Fat Brother. http://www.cnit.nsu.ru/~fat/
**************************************************************************
* In 1984 mainstream users were choosing VMS over UNIX. Ten years later *
* they are choosing Windows over UNIX. What part of that message aren't *
* you getting? *
* Tom Payne *
Ed Deans
Cory wrote:
> Related to this issue. I hang out on some mainframe newsgroups and
> websites and I'm surprised at the large number of people with mailer's
> and brower's that report themselves to be OS/2 based. I think W95 W32
> has a large 'unwashed' following, kind of the OS of the trailer park and
> K-mart set (let's see, have I not insulted anyone?) but OS/2 and Merlin
> has a higher class of user, a more industrial strength, sophisticated,
> and intelligent user base.
>
In my experience as a previous TeamOS2 zealot working trade shows, with
user groups, etc. this isn't far off the mark. W95 is the "beer" of
computing.
--Ed.
ead...@ibm.net
jl...@prolog.net
Marvin Lichtenthal <rrs...@ibm.net wrote in a message to All:
Mi> Roger Perkins wrote:
>
> OS/2 was voted the Infoworld 1996 Reader's Choice Product of the Year
> award for an unprecedented fifth year in a row! This is per an email
> Nick Petreley wrote me.
>
> He went on to say:
>
> "However, I don't think we're printing any of the reader's choice awards
> this year, partly based on the low turnout, and partly based on the
> assumption (or conclusion) that the selection of OS/2 was the result of
> an OS/2 user campaign to make it win
> again, and therefore doesn't really accurately statistically reflect our
> readers' opinions."
>
Perhaps Info World should just cancel and refund
the money to every subscriber that voted for OS/2.
That way the test results will always favor the
operating system they want to win. Furthermore,
InfoWorld will be rid of the people that think
OS/2 is the best and all will be peaceful again.
Of course we know this won't happen, Info World
may not like having a larger percentage of
of readers that voted OS/2 as the best, but
InfoWorld does like having those same
individuals pay them to read their magazine.
This is either a definite sign that Info World
is a very poorly written magazine, they
can not tell their readers what to think
as many other magazines have successfully
done or InfoWorld's readers are very
independent thinkers, and thus explains
why OS/2 could continue to win even though
every other magazine says they it should
not win.
Well, there it is, can't wait to see how the
windows fanatics FUD this one.....
Greetings,
joe (email to jl...@prolog.net)
--- timEd/2 1.10
* Origin: 0 (0:0/0)
Holger Veit
In article <5hfmlk$1u8m$1...@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, rro...@ibm.net writes:
|> In <333B55...@ibm.net>, Roger Perkins <rl...@ibm.net> writes:
[...]
|> >"However, I don't think we're printing any of the reader's choice awards
|> >this year, partly based on the low turnout, and partly based on the
|> >assumption (or conclusion) that the selection of OS/2 was the result of
|> >an OS/2 user campaign to make it win
|> >again, and therefore doesn't really accurately statistically reflect our
|> >readers' opinions."
|> >write to Sandy Reed and cc Nicholas...@infoworld.com. It seems
|> >OS/2 rarely gets a fair shake in the printed technical press.
|> >
|> >Roger Perkins
|>
|> This only reinforces what worthless hunks of shit these so-called "computer"
|> magazines are (worthless rags) and why I don't consider it worth my time to even
|> respond to anything they do. I mean lets face it, most of the so called "experts"
|> who write for these rags are computer laymen at best (journalism or english
|> majors who are nothing more than hackers). It really amazes me that anyone
|> gives these publications any consideration at all.
This is known by most users who have seen other sides of the fence;
unfortunately, they are a minority. The majority *is* the Joe Dumbuser type
who is happy to hear that "his" personal decision for some junk offered
was right: all the "computer experts" from the gazettes tell him continuously
that he is so clever to follow the M$ upgrade treadmill. Amplification works
by positive feedback. Show the people where the enemy is: Apple losers, OS/2
zealots, Linux advocates (these are mad, spotty nerds who never grew up, anyway,
and therefore not serious). Give the people bread and circus, and they will
believe anything, including any absurd religion and suspicious political opinion.
Don't irritate Joe Dumbuser by presenting anything which could make him start
thinking - thinking about things is the best way to leave the flock of sheep.
--
Dr.-Ing. Holger Veit | INTERNET: Holger.Veit"at"gmd.de
| | / GMD - German National Research | Phone: (+49) 2241 14 2448
|__| / Center for Information Technology| Fax: (+49) 2241 14 2242
| | / Schloss Birlinghoven | XFree86/OS2 goes public!
| |/ D-53754 Sankt Augustin, Germany | V3.2 from ftp.xfree86.org
WWW: http://borneo.gmd.de/~veit/ | /pub/XFree86/3.2/binaries/OS2
David E. Smith
Would someone please be so kind as to direct me to the issue of Infoworld
where the poll results were published? I would be most interesting in
reading it. Please e-mail me, in case I miss reponses here. Thank you.
Benjamin M. Romer
In article <5hhd8p$5dm$1...@halcyon.com>, t...@halcyon.com says...
>
>James Owens <ad...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>>I wrote urging them to assign a reporter to this. If OS/2 users have
>>skewed the result, shouldn't they be covering the story and finding out
>>why this solid but under-publicized OS has such a dedicated following
>>despite the lack of press?
>
>and 30,000 were for OS/2, then there is an interesting story there they
>should investigate. If, on the other extreme, there were 10 votes, and
>six for OS/2, then there's no story (except possibly one on how no one cares
>about taking their survey!).
>
>--Tim Smith
You have a really good point here, Tim. What was the turnout for the
survey? Does anyone have any real numbers here? Were we being fed a line
for some stupid survey that doesn't really count for anything?
Can anyone on this group actually say that yes, they voted for OS/2?
At first I was pissed off about this but now I'm just worried that we're
getting worked up over some stupid editor who is just busting our chops
with invalid statistical results.
If really only ten people voted, though, I can see why InfoWorld wouldn't
want to admit that.
Sincerely,
Ben Romer
Erik Funkenbusch
In article <0_0/0_0_34...@fidonet.org>, jl...@prolog.net. wrote:
>Marvin Lichtenthal <rrs...@ibm.net wrote in a message to All:
>
>Mi> Roger Perkins wrote:
>>
>> OS/2 was voted the Infoworld 1996 Reader's Choice Product of the Year
>> award for an unprecedented fifth year in a row! This is per an email
>> Nick Petreley wrote me.
>>
>> He went on to say:
>>
>> this year, partly based on the low turnout, and partly based on the
>> assumption (or conclusion) that the selection of OS/2 was the result of
>> an OS/2 user campaign to make it win
>> again, and therefore doesn't really accurately statistically reflect our
>> readers' opinions."
>>
>
>
>
>the money to every subscriber that voted for OS/2.
>That way the test results will always favor the
>operating system they want to win. Furthermore,
>InfoWorld will be rid of the people that think
Who *BUYS* infoworld? I get it free, just fill out the questionaire. I know
it *IS* also available for subscription to those that don't qualify (though
i've never heard of anyone not qualifying).
>Of course we know this won't happen, Info World
>may not like having a larger percentage of
>of readers that voted OS/2 as the best, but
>InfoWorld does like having those same
>individuals pay them to read their magazine.
Infoworld gets the vast majority of it's money from advertising.
>This is either a definite sign that Info World
>is a very poorly written magazine, they
>can not tell their readers what to think
>as many other magazines have successfully
>done or InfoWorld's readers are very
>independent thinkers, and thus explains
>why OS/2 could continue to win even though
>every other magazine says they it should
>not win.
Infoworld was the magazine that broke the "story" on the Win95 registration
wizard. The story was incorrect, and cetainly painted MS in a bad light.
Infoworld also gives plenty of reviews of MS products that aren't favorable.
Infoworld seems to actually have an anti-ms bent.
Chris J. Alumbaugh
In message <5hnngu$l...@reader.seed.net.tw> - r...@mail.sysnet.net.tw (rj
friedman)31 Mar 1997 07:01:50 GMT writes:
:>
:>In message <5hmte8$nk0$1...@news.iquest.net> - jlr...@holli.com (Jerry
:>Rowe)30 Mar 1997 23:36:40 GMT writes:
:>Ż
:>
:>Ż>find one on Easter Sunday, could you please summarize the main points?
:>
:>
:>Żthe full meal deal is at:
:>Żhttp://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/reed/reed.htm
:>
:>
:>That editorial has to rank as one of the most obnoxious pieces of
:>self-serving red baiting I've come across since the days when Joe
:>McCarthy was doing his dance.
geeze,, I wish I could have put it into words that well. (g). It appears
that it was designed to "solve thier problem",, by this time next year,
there won't be any OS/2 readers in the Infoworld audience to vote.
Chris J. Alumbaugh
********************************
As it is SPOKEN.. so it appears
OS/2 Warp 4.0 and Voice Dictation
********************************
* my email address in the header has been hacked*
* please shift all letters 1 letter to the right*
*to decipher correct address to reply by email*
Future
What a bunch of prejudiced idiocy.
--
If you would like to Email me, my address is "future at blarg dot net".
If you use Win95 or NT 4.0, try AutoMID, a cool Win32 MIDI Player. You can find
all my shareware and freeware products at http://www.blarg.net/~future/shareware.html .
William de Haan
In message <5hn7nb$1af0$2...@news-s01.ca.us.ibm.net>, on 31 Mar 1997 02:32:11 GMT,
kiy...@ibm.net wrote:
>Related to this issue. I hang out on some mainframe newsgroups and websites and
>I'm surprised at the large number of people with mailer's and brower's that
>report themselves to be OS/2 based. I think W95 W32 has a large 'unwashed'
Why on earth should you be?
>following, kind of the OS of the trailer park and K-mart set (let's see, have I
>not insulted anyone?) but OS/2 and Merlin has a higher class of user, a more
>industrial strength, sophisticated, and intelligent user base.
Pride goeth before a fall, Cory. Believing that OS/2 users are better
than "the great unwashed" was what caused IBM to treat OS/2 the way it
does. Because OS/2 users would be so sophisticated, there was no need to
advertise it, talk to third parties, etc. Look where that got them.
________________________________________________________________________
William de Haan b...@deus.com 905-281-3523 Voice 905-281-3524 Fax
Deus Ex Machina Ltd., 3650 Kaneff Crescent, Mississauga, Ontario L5A 4A1
No hablo espanol. Non parlo Italiano. eG'K Hy's Klingon.
mar...@ibm.net
In <333EEF...@NOSPAM.ibm.net>, Pieter Dubois <dub...@NOSPAM.ibm.net> writes:
>Bernard B. Yoo wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> I don't think OS/2's situation is comparable to Amiga's situation. For
>> example:
>> - Does Amiga have a growing user base?
>> - Is AmigaOS updated on a regular basis?
>> - Is new hardware for Amiga being sold?
>
>I just read (computerworld?) Gateway is trying to buy the remnants of
>Amiga and bring it out themselves.
>
>Pieter Dubois
>
>___________________________________
>Disclaimer ... which Disclaimer?
>Didn't you read my name?
>
>WARNING : E-mail adress prohibited for usage in mailinglists without
>strict permission of owner (me).
>Unsollicited usage agrees in paying 1000$ for each time used to me by
>the offender.
Much as I enjoy OS/2, the Amiga is not far behind - perhaps not behind at all.
It's an amazing machine. However, one should view Gateway's motives with
a fishy eye. The last would-be buyer of the Amiga had an eye on it as a set-top
internet machine, and Gateway may well have the same idea in mind. As of yet,
there is no java for Amiga (I think), and there hasn't been an upgrade of the OS
since Commodore folded. Both these items make it very unlikely that Gateway
could generate sales for it as a business machine, and i doubt they want to. I vote
for Amiga as a basis for WebTV or, alternatively, as an under $1000 home machine,
perhaps as a game machine with more in common with Saturn or Playstation than
with OS/2 or Windows. Let's see if Gateway negotiates with Motorola for all
those 68040 chips sitting in the warehouse.
Mark
rj friedman
In message <3343cb30....@news.interlog.com> -
b...@nospam.deus.com (William de Haan)Wed, 02 Apr 1997 03:01:34 GMT
writes:
Ż
ŻPride goeth before a fall, Cory. Believing that OS/2 users are better
Żthan "the great unwashed" was what caused IBM to treat OS/2 the way it
Żdoes. Because OS/2 users would be so sophisticated, there was no need to
Żadvertise it, talk to third parties, etc. Look where that got them.
Hmmm... 15 million user base; key component in the computing
implementation of the world's largest corporations (and growing); one
of the key elements in a multibillion dollar revenue stream; recently
signed an INCREDIBLY lucrative deal with one of the world's largest
banks.
Yup - poor prideful IBM. Just look where it got them.
ŻWilliam de Haan b...@deus.com 905-281-3523 Voice 905-281-3524 Fax
Williams
mar...@ibm.net wrote:
Why not? It's still on the market, you can mail order it. and their
is a user base, It is surving.
>I vote for Amiga as a basis for WebTV or, alternatively, as an under $1000 home machine,
I don't think Amiga Tech whould appear in the WebTV since all you need
is a modem and the power to run the internet software
>perhaps as a game machine with more in common with Saturn or Playstation
it will not go to Sega or Playstation since they already decided on
a Matsushita design.
>than with OS/2 or Windows. Let's see if Gateway negotiates with Motorola for all
>those 68040 chips sitting in the warehouse.
>Mark
I think this technology might appear in the Macs and the PCs
while the Amiga contenues to sell.
cro...@kuentos.guam.net
In <5hku02$r...@tierra.santafe.edu>, tga...@roadrunner.com (Thomas Gamble) writes:
>In message <5hhq7a$3j6$1...@thefuture.qualcomm.com> - "Steven C. Den Beste"
><"sdenbest@NOSPAM"@qualcomm.com> writes:
>:>
>:>James Owens wrote:
>:>>
>:>> I wrote urging them to assign a reporter to this. If OS/2 users have
>:>> skewed the result, shouldn't they be covering the story and finding out
>:>> why this solid but under-publicized OS has such a dedicated following
>:>> despite the lack of press?
>:>> -->:>
>:>
>:>I think this is "dog bites man".
>:>
>:>Almost any system you can name will have *some* sort of dedicated
>:>following like this; OS/2 is not particularly unusual in this regard.
>:>(The Amiga has been dead for nearly three years and there is STILL a
>:>nucleus of users.)
>:>
>:>This kind of ballot-box-stuffing often indicates desperation, not
>:>anything else in particular.
>
>
>
In short, OS/2 users are ethusiastic about their operating system
choice, while Windows users feel indifferent about theirs.
Rgds,
Chris
"Devant le comportement irrationnel de sa machine, j'ai compris que se
poser en dfenseur de Windows releve de la plus profonde bassesse. J'ai
honte" --- Eric Bernatchez, "La Presse" newspaper, "Cyberpresse"
column, March 22, 1997, Montreal, Canada.
"Confronted with his machines irrational behaviour, it dawned upon me
that taking the position of Windows advocate is of the lowest possible
ethics. I am ashamed".
***cro...@kuentos.guam.net***
pit -->
In message <3344b0bf...@news.servtech.com> - jgl...@servtech.com (Jeff
Glatt) writes:
>
>>cro...@kuentos.guam.net
>>In short, OS/2 users are ethusiastic about their operating system
>>choice, while Windows users feel indifferent about theirs.
>
>brand name product whereas Windows users don't
I'd like to know why loving anything is unhealthy, but this is nevertheless
a curious statement from someone with an unhealthy hate obsession with
something we're enthusiastic about.
Rgds,
___________________________________________________________________
pit --> @iohk.com --- petri i. taimisto
Do you enjoy freedom of speech, opinion and religion?
A lot of people aren't that lucky...
F R E E T I B * T
cro...@kuentos.guam.net
In <3344b0bf...@news.servtech.com>, jgl...@servtech.com (Jeff Glatt) writes:
>>cro...@kuentos.guam.net
>>In short, OS/2 users are ethusiastic about their operating system
>>choice, while Windows users feel indifferent about theirs.
>
>Translation: OS/2 users have an unhealthy emotional love affair with a
>brand name product whereas Windows users don't
If you don't love Windows, at least we know you have an unhealthy
emotional love affair with Ian Tholen there.
cro...@kuentos.guam.net
In <5i3i01$b...@hkt001.hkt.net>, pit --> @iohk.com (TaiQ) writes:
>In message <3344b0bf...@news.servtech.com> - jgl...@servtech.com (Jeff
>Glatt) writes:
>>
>>>cro...@kuentos.guam.net
>>>In short, OS/2 users are ethusiastic about their operating system
>>>choice, while Windows users feel indifferent about theirs.
>>
>>Translation: OS/2 users have an unhealthy emotional love affair with a
>>brand name product whereas Windows users don't
>
>a curious statement from someone with an unhealthy hate obsession with
>something we're enthusiastic about.
Along with his openly public obsession with one called "Ian Tholen" and
that of his own beautiful legs, we can how truly hypocritical JGlutt's
quips really is.
William de Haan
In article <l2iQzoHp...@skypoint.com> on Wed, 02 Apr 1997 03:57:57 -0600,
Richard Steiner wrote:
>Sure. That'd make sense, too, since Microsoft seems to think that the OS/2
>product died before the v2.0 launch. :-)
Not surprisingly, given that was the last time they worked on it.
________________________________________________________________________
William de Haan b...@deus.com 905-281-3523 Voice 905-281-3524 Fax
mar...@ibm.net
Yes, but just surviving. If you think OS/2 has been a struggle, the Amiga has now
crashed two companies onto the financials shoals. As for its use as a business machine,
it just doesn't have any profile as such and isn't going to gain it at this late date.
>
>>I vote for Amiga as a basis for WebTV or, alternatively, as an under $1000 home machine,
>
>I don't think Amiga Tech whould appear in the WebTV since all you need
>is a modem and the power to run the internet software
And an OS. The Amiga can run almost anything in 2 megs of memory. That's very
appealing for WebTV.
>
>>perhaps as a game machine with more in common with Saturn or Playstation
>
>it will not go to Sega or Playstation since they already decided on
>a Matsushita design.
I didn't mean as a alternate platform (although maybe), but as a completely "new"
way to play games. The Amiga already has a very impressive games portfolio.
>
>
>>than with OS/2 or Windows. Let's see if Gateway negotiates with Motorola for all
>>those 68040 chips sitting in the warehouse.
>
>>Mark
>
>I think this technology might appear in the Macs and the PCs
>while the Amiga contenues to sell.
>
I'm not sure what you mean here.
Mark
cbr...@earthlink.net
>
> >cro...@kuentos.guam.net
> >In short, OS/2 users are ethusiastic about their operating system
> >choice, while Windows users feel indifferent about theirs.
>
> Translation: OS/2 users have an unhealthy emotional love affair with a
> brand name product whereas Windows users don't
>
The whole thread up until this point seemed actually lucid, and then someone has to throw in this
bit of half-handed 'witticism.'
Maturity... look into it.
Charles W Brewer Team OS/2
cbr...@earthlink.net
"If Bill Gates clicks his mouse on 'nuke', would all WIN95 users grab their heads, scream "Ooohhhh Nooooo!!", and blow up?
...click, Bill, click!
pit -->
In message <33468fee...@news.servtech.com> - jgl...@servtech.com (Jeff
Glatt) writes:
>
>>>>cro...@kuentos.guam.net
>>>>In short, OS/2 users are ethusiastic about their operating system
>>>>choice, while Windows users feel indifferent about theirs.
>
>>>Translation: OS/2 users have an unhealthy emotional love affair with a
>>>brand name product whereas Windows users don't
>
>
>to love you back. I strongly urge people who get too attached to
>material goods to seek an "adjustment" in their "altruism".
>
You are absolutely right. However I was thinking more in terms of "I love
to do some diving/I love to play with this new vacuum
cleaner/toaster/operating system cause it's fun. I'm pretty sure no one
hugs & kisses their computer and cries when it doesn't hug back. :^)
I also agree that less materialism is generally better (thinking globally,
acting locally) but I'd hardly hate anyone because of their
material/spiritual attachments. I also see nothing wrong with my being
attached to my handcrafted guitars... <g>
>>but this is nevertheless
>>a curious statement from someone with an unhealthy hate obsession with
>>something we're enthusiastic about.
>
>I don't hate OS/2. I hate obnoxious, pushy OS/2 zealots... for good
>reason. They whine about how the world has done them wrong, and yet
>don't improve the world one bit -- rather, they make the place worse
>off
But Jeff, you have created this problem all by yourself by creating
confrontation when you frequent newsgroups discussing about OS/2. Suppose
you stumbled on a watering hole frequented by gonzos, flashed them your
female side (legs? :^) and started making bickering remarks about their
choices in life. They'd probably throw you around a bit but imagine their
surprise when you'd keep coming back for more "because you hate them".
OTOH, you can cross their territory behaving in a civilized way, have a few
drinks and you might find out they aren't that bad after all. No, they
aren't systematically trying to make the world a better place but by simply
existing they make the world a little richer experience.
It's all about choices, and tolerance and respect for the choices of
others. Have some respect for our choice (in the context of these
newsgroups) and you'd feel welcome pretty soon. If you still disagree with
a few people maybe you wouldn't hate the whole OS/2 userbase (and by
default our choice of OS). Hatred is always destructive and wears the hater
out, so try not to hate, for your own good.
So, in a gonzo joint (Rome or OS/2 forum), do as the gonzos (Romans or OS/2
users) do - as long as you're not hurting anyone, of course.
All the best,
Williams
mar...@ibm.net wrote:
>In <33444...@lagoon.idirect.com>, wil...@idirect.com (Williams) writes:
>>mar...@ibm.net wrote:
>>
>>>In <333EEF...@NOSPAM.ibm.net>, Pieter Dubois <dub...@NOSPAM.ibm.net> writes:
>>>>Bernard B. Yoo wrote:
>>>>
>>>><snip>
<snip>
>>
>>>Much as I enjoy OS/2, the Amiga is not far behind - perhaps not behind at all.
>>>It's an amazing machine. However, one should view Gateway's motives with
>>>a fishy eye. The last would-be buyer of the Amiga had an eye on it as a set-top
>>>internet machine, and Gateway may well have the same idea in mind. As of yet,
>>>there is no java for Amiga (I think), and there hasn't been an upgrade of the OS
>>>since Commodore folded. Both these items make it very unlikely that Gateway
>>>could generate sales for it as a business machine, and i doubt they want to.
>>
>>Why not? It's still on the market, you can mail order it. and their
>>is a user base, It is surving.
>Yes, but just surviving. If you think OS/2 has been a struggle, the Amiga has now
>crashed two companies onto the financials shoals. As for its use as a business machine,
>it just doesn't have any profile as such and isn't going to gain it at this late date.
Yhea. But they more popular.
Three publication,a small gaming industry (bigger than ours) and they
are more known. Plus the the Dos ports help alot.
I agree it does not cut it as a business machine but it makes a
decent hobbest,Gameing and light home office machine
So... Amiga is in the same boat as we are but they keep losing their
captin. If IBM was a weak as Commodore then well have the same
problem. (But IBM is almost as helpful as Amiga's leader :-) )
>>>I vote for Amiga as a basis for WebTV or, alternatively, as an under $1000 home machine,
>>
>>I don't think Amiga Tech whould appear in the WebTV since all you need
>>is a modem and the power to run the internet software
>And an OS. The Amiga can run almost anything in 2 megs of memory. That's very
>appealing for WebTV.
But the Web TV is a bad idea in the first place.
Why would you pay for a box that just surfs the internet when you can
get a concel that play games and surfs the internet or a computer
>>
>>>perhaps as a game machine with more in common with Saturn or Playstation
>>
>>it will not go to Sega or Playstation since they already decided on
>>a Matsushita design.
>I didn't mean as a alternate platform (although maybe), but as a completely "new"
>way to play games. The Amiga already has a very impressive games portfolio.
I agree
>>
>>
>>>than with OS/2 or Windows. Let's see if Gateway negotiates with Motorola for all
>>>those 68040 chips sitting in the warehouse.
>>
>>>Mark
>>
>>I think this technology might appear in the Macs and the PCs
>>while the Amiga contenues to sell.
>>
>I'm not sure what you mean here.
What I meant was that some of the Tech (power, layout,so on) might go
into the Macs and mostly the IBM compatibles since they are a poor
design and wastes resorces. breathing Amiga Technolgy into the IBM
compatibles could stop this upgrade frency, so mabey in the furture
OS/2 would only need 8-12 megs and 80mz for peek performance.
>Mark
----------------------------
John Williams
OS/2 Yours to Discover
Happy 10th Birthday OS/2
Alain Southiere
>I don't hate OS/2. I hate obnoxious, pushy OS/2 zealots... for good
>reason. They whine about how the world has done them wrong, and yet
>don't improve the world one bit -- rather, they make the place worse
>off
OS/2 users don't hate people who prefer other OSes. They hate obnoxious,
pushy anti-OS/2 advocates zealots... For good reasons. They whine how OS/2
advocates have done the world wrong, and yet, don't improve the world a
bit -- rather, they make the place worse off.
Couldn't resist :-)
---
Alain Southiere | If fifty million people
Software developer | say a stupid thing, it is
als...@cam.org | still a stupid thing.
http://www.cam.org/~alsouth | - Anatole France
Mark Nixon
In message <33468fee...@news.servtech.com> -
jgl...@servtech.com (Jeff Glatt)Sat, 05 Apr 1997 17:50:58 GMT
writes:
:>
:>
:>I don't hate OS/2. I hate obnoxious, pushy OS/2 zealots... for good
:>reason. They whine about how the world has done them wrong, and yet
:>don't improve the world one bit -- rather, they make the place worse
:>off
Holy Power, Batman!
Damn!
They're powerful fothermuckers!
A handful of 'puter users making the *world* a worse place to
live in.
Bloody incredible.
Hey, all you "obnoxious, pushy OS/2 zealots", whoever and
wherever you are: you have Great Power -- use it wisely.
Use it to cause all first-born win-users' children under 2
years of age to move whole directories to other drives on
their parents Win95 systems, rendering parents catatonic, and
their shortcuts useless.
Use it to induce Horrible Hardware Hangs on NT due to poorly
written drivers. Use it to introduce Bastard Bugs in the
otherwise perfectly wirtten Office 95.
Use it to render a Pentium 100 with 32 megs Edo ram totally
useless for other use while running an automated letter merge
written in VB using FTP to download a comma file and Word '95
to mail merge and print the resulting letters.
Use it to make Win95 a pretty useless communications OS.
And the really good stuff:
Use it to cause war in the Balkans.
Use it to force large corporations to rape the environment to
increase profits in order to pay larger dividends to
shareholders who complain about the rape of the environment.
This reminds me of a joke my Aunt Sofie told me:
Germany, 1938:
Abraham and Aaron are sitting on a park bench. Abraham's
reading a Yiddische paper, while Aaron's reading Der Sturmer.
Abraham is shaking his head sadly, moaning "oy, oy, oy", while
Aaron's laughing so hard tears are running down his face.
Abraham:"Aaron! How can you read that dreck! Things are
horrible! Death, pogroms,
small businesses being closed down, our money being stolen,
Jewish workers being fired and imprisoned, sent to camps!"
Aaron: "Ahhh, you see, Aaron, I know all these things. But
when I read this paper, we rule the world!"
Mark Nixon
Un montrealais living in Denmark
Bob Hauck
In article <33415...@usamrid.isd.net>,
chu...@isd.net (Erik Funkenbusch) writes:
> Infoworld seems to actually have an anti-ms bent.
Golly, maybe that rather than "ballot stuffing" is the reason for
OS/2 winning the Readers Choice poll year after year. Could it be
that they attract a disproportiante number of readers who don't like
MS products?
Nah, that could never happen. Well, maybe it did.
In the short-lived forum on the subject, a number of people (including
Nick Petreley) pointed out that Infoworld's editorial content and
distribution policies might attract more OS/2-likers than the average
rag. It was also mentioned that the demographics of the web-based
readership might be quite different than that of the paper for a variety
of perfectly legit reasons (Sandy Reed cited surveys of the paper
version's readership to partly justify her claims).
I think Infoworld made a big mistake. I'm convinced that Ms. Reed
did not think she'd get the reaction she got. On the bright side,
now they have some more stuff to write about..."MS Hatred on the
Web", "OS/2 not Dead", and so on <g>.
---
Bob Hauck bo...@wasatch.com
Wasatch Communications Group http://www.wasatch.com
pcg...@ibm.net
Infoworld's management might also like to re-examine their choice
of editors. Insulting a major portion of your readership may not
be the most effective way to stay in business!
Those who don't understand how a small, but dedicated, minority
can have a disproportionate voice at the polls, need look no
further than the American electoral system - where far less than
50% of those elligible actually vote. I guess the Supreme Court
should have thrown out the last election, due to obvious ballot
stuffing by Clinton supporters?
Phil "Guido" Cava TeamOS/2
Help, PC!
Let us help you achieve Warp Speed today!
email at: pcg...@ibm.net
> Proud Member: Jeff Glatt OS/2 Zealots list, 01-MAR-97!
tho...@galileo.ifa.hawaii.edu
Jeff Glatt writes:
> Chris Robato writes:
>> In short, OS/2 users are ethusiastic about their operating system
>> choice, while Windows users feel indifferent about theirs.
> Translation: OS/2 users have an unhealthy emotional love affair with a
> brand name product whereas Windows users don't
I guess that makes your enthusiasm for Be "an unhealthy emotional love
affair".
Jim Stuyck
What you "guess" is irrelevant, even more irrelevant than what you might
think (assuming you "think" -- which is quite an assumption). ;-)
Jim Stuyck -- I've plenty of [un]healthy emotional love affairs with brand
name products myself, but computer software isn't among them.
tho...@galileo.ifa.hawaii.edu
Jim Stuyck writes:
>> Jeff Glatt writes:
>>> Chris Robato writes:
>>>> In short, OS/2 users are ethusiastic about their operating system
>>>> choice, while Windows users feel indifferent about theirs.
>>> Translation: OS/2 users have an unhealthy emotional love affair with a
>>> brand name product whereas Windows users don't
>> I guess that makes your enthusiasm for Be "an unhealthy emotional love
>> affair".
> What you "guess" is irrelevant,
I didn't have to guess about Jeff's promotion of BeOS in this newsgroup,
Jim. It's a fact.
> even more irrelevant than what you might think
I didn't have to think about Jeff's promotion of BeOS in this newsgroup,
Jim. It's a fact.
> (assuming you "think" -- which is quite an assumption). ;-)
And the usual invective. But of course. Look at the lack of a logical
argument.
tho...@galileo.ifa.hawaii.edu
Jeff Glatt writes:
> And what you people really hate is that someone like me is brazen
> enough to tell you off. Too bad
Actually, it seems you are here because you're worried that some
people are out to "destroy all that is MS and Windows". It's your
worry that makes you brazen.
tho...@galileo.ifa.hawaii.edu
Jeff Glatt writes:
> OS/2 zealots are not disliked simply because they use OS/2 (although
> Ian Tholen would like to suggest such a thing).
Still having reading comprehension problems, Jeff? Where did I
suggest that as the sole criterion? Having trouble remembering
where I wrote that people don't like having their FUD countered
by me?
Dave Tholen
Jeff Glatt writes:
>>> OS/2 zealots are not disliked simply because they use OS/2 (although
>>> Ian Tholen would like to suggest such a thing).
>> Where did I suggest that as the sole criterion?
> Still having reading comprehension problems, Ian?
Obviously not.
> Where did I say that you said that was the sole criterion?
See above, Jeff. Comprehend the "simply because" part.
>> Having trouble remembering where I wrote that people don't like
>> having their FUD countered by me?
> Not at all.
Then why did you write "simply because" above when it's not that simple?
> In fact, I and others note that it's your emotional
> attachment to a brand name product,
Which brand name product might that be, Jeff? Solaris? UNICOS? DOS?
NeXTStep? I use them all.
> combined with your severe psychological flaws,
Well, it stands to reason that you would rely on invective, because you
have no logical argument on which to base a case.
> which lead you to the above conclusion as the reason why people don't
> like you
Still having reading comprehension problems, Jeff? That's your
conclusion above, not mine. You were led to it, not me.
Dave Tholen
Jeff Glatt writes:
>>> And what you people really hate is that someone like me is brazen
>>> enough to tell you off. Too bad
>> Actually, it seems you are here because you're worried that some
>> people are out to "destroy all that is MS and Windows".
> It seems you are here because you're worried that some people are
> saying "negative things about OS/2".
On what basis do you make that claim, Jeff? Why should I worry about
that?
>> It's your worry that makes you brazen.
> It's your worry over a product with which you've fallen in love that
> makes you a lunatic
Ah, the expected invective. But of course; there's no logical argument
that Jeff can use instead.
Thomas Nagy
In <01bc46d5$c9f84280$757141ce@wganz>, "William E. Ganz" <wg...@texoma.net> writes:
>Jeff Glatt
>
>> derive enjoyment from using a product. They've developed an unhealthy
>> emotional attachment to a name brand product, thus infusing them with
>> such things as bitter resentment toward
>> everything-associated-with-Microsoft due to some perceived "slight"
>
>Great observation. I have wondered how extremist groups got people to tie
>explosives to themselves and run into an enemy camp until now.
This is also a good observation :)
[snip]
>Could I inquire as to why you are an ex-OS/2 user & developer? I presently
>use OS/2 and I like it in what I use it for. Does that make me a zealot for
>using an OS that has about 14% market share? I don't think so. So, be
>careful with the tar brush on everyone that uses OS/2 is a blind zealot.
>Then you will end up like the OS/2 zealots that you are dogging, totally
>hateful to anyone that might have something good to say about OS/2.
I believe this has already happened...
>I dislike the anti-Microsoft ranting and raving plus the weeping & wailing &
>gnashing of teeth as much as you do but to join in the other side at the
>same level won't accomplish anything.
Well, if it does not cost you a penny and you are willing to overlook
unethical behaviour, despicable business practices, etc., that's understandable.
>My opinion is that you cannot build yourself up if you are too busy trying
>to tear someone else down. The same goes with OS/2 here. I would rather
>concentrate on what it does right rather than hear what _might_ be wrong
>with Windows.
In a perfect world, yes. But in a perfect world, we would not have MS :)
Thomas Nagy
William E. Ganz
Jeff Glatt
> derive enjoyment from using a product. They've developed an unhealthy
> emotional attachment to a name brand product, thus infusing them with
> such things as bitter resentment toward
> everything-associated-with-Microsoft due to some perceived "slight"
Great observation. I have wondered how extremist groups got people to tie
explosives to themselves and run into an enemy camp until now. Also
wondered about the average age of the zealots here and if they are
suffering from a bad case of testosterone poisoning. The paranoia of
anything with a Microsoft label really can give you some insight into the
inner workings of Timothy McVeigh's mind. "THEY are everywhere, THEY are
watching, and THEY are going to TAKE OVER!!! So, so, so, we gotta do
something, yeah, we'll unite and bring down the EVIL EMPIRE! Yeah, that's
right. Yeah, we're right & everyone else is wrong."
Somewhere along the line, the fact that OSs are tools seems to have been
forgotten. OS/2 is a good tool but was poorly marketed due to short sighted
strategies of tying it to MCA in the PS/2 machines. I use OS/2 and Mac
System 7.5.1 and Windows 95 and Windows 3.1. When I run across a
programming language that is as easy to use & inexpensive as Visual Basic
but on OS/2, I will get it and use(If you have an URL of such a product,
just email it to me). I really don't care if a program is from Microsoft,
Sun, Borland, or Symantec as long as I get done what I need done.
Could you imagine the same zeal from a carpenter for a Stanley hammer
rather than a Craftsman hammer? We have the same thing here. Oh, well. Some
people's children.
> OS/2 zealots are disliked because they harass people who have
> important work to get done -- people who have no obligation whatsoever
> to cater to a niche product despite the OS/2 zealot's expectations
> that everyone bow down before his "beloved", whine and complain and
I did email Lou Gerstner and asked him why the advertising for OS/2 was so
thin. The message was courteous and succinct. Guess what? I got a response
a response from a lady in his office. Kind of like, catching more flies
with honey than vinegar. It also was a check mark on the survey showing
that there was _intelligent life_ asking to continue OS/2. This did more
good than all of the ranting & raving & flaming that you see here in COOA.
> is to it. I ought to know. I'm an ex-OS/2 user and developer, and I
> know what else is there. Nothing else can account for what is
> occurring except for an unhealthy emotional attachment to OS/2)
Could I inquire as to why you are an ex-OS/2 user & developer? I presently
use OS/2 and I like it in what I use it for. Does that make me a zealot for
using an OS that has about 14% market share? I don't think so. So, be
careful with the tar brush on everyone that uses OS/2 is a blind zealot.
Then you will end up like the OS/2 zealots that you are dogging, totally
hateful to anyone that might have something good to say about OS/2. I
dislike the anti-Microsoft ranting and raving plus the weeping & wailing &
gnashing of teeth as much as you do but to join in the other side at the
same level won't accomplish anything.
My opinion is that you cannot build yourself up if you are too busy trying
to tear someone else down. The same goes with OS/2 here. I would rather
concentrate on what it does right rather than hear what _might_ be wrong
with Windows.
Regards,
Will
Alain Southiere
In <3353990e...@news.servtech.com>, jgl...@servtech.com (Jeff Glatt) writes:
>>ian_t...@galileo.ifa.hawaii.edu
>>Actually, it seems you are here because you're worried that some
>>people are out to "destroy all that is MS and Windows".
>
>It seems you are here because you're worried that some people are
>saying "negative things about OS/2".
How pathetic... This is comp.os.os2.advocacy ! A newsgroup where
one expects to see OS/2 supporters. In light of this, Dave's presence
here seems much more "natural" than yours...
Thomas Nagy
jgl...@servtech.com (Jeff Glatt) writes:
>I tend to not have very strong allegiances to operating systems. When
>I see something that I like better and has more to offer me, I tend to
>dump the "old stuff". I'm not one of those guys who worries about
>legacy support, and whose #1 concern is reusing his old stuff that he
>paid for years ago over and over.
Jeff, it is hardly ever the INDIVIDUAL who is looking for the legacy
support, but the BUSINESSES. You can buy shrink-wrapped products
which would set you back $2-3,000, but what about your in-house
applications? To rewrite them could cost $2-30,000 or 2-300,000!
If a business needs a shrink-wrapped package, no problem. Try
to convince them to rewrite their custom programs! Good luck!
[snip]
>Once again, I want to remind folks that, contrary to the
>often-repeated myth, OS/2 zealots are not disliked simply because of
>their choice of OS. They are disliked because they harass, malign, and
>denigrate those who don't share the OS/2 zealot's opinions of OS/2
>versus the competition, they have unreasonable expectations and
>demands that they are somehow "owed" something from various Windows
>supporters, and they just plain bother people who have no interest nor
>obligation to that niche OS and sometimes do things that ruin not only
>their own support (ie, for example, driving their own magazines into
>bankruptcy) but also ruin the things that other platform owners have
>(such as tainting BrowserWatch with questionable activities).
I would like to remind you that you are in an OS/2 newsgroup. Your
statement would be valid in a Wind newsgroup, but here it is ridiculous.
>They've
>made an art form of passing the buck by blaming everyone else (usually
>somehow associated with MS) for anything bad that ever happened to
>their platform, at the same time that they themselves fail to support
>their platform and become self-sufficient.
I would like to point out, that being pro-OS/2 and anti-MS are two different
things, although non-Wind users are usually convinced that their OS is better
than the 'shoveware' MS forces on virtually every new machine. So it is not
really surprising to see anti-MS posts in the advocacy groups of competing(?)
PC platforms. In case of OS/2, how could you miss the several messages that
blamed IBM for one reason or another? I did not count the number of slashes
against MS or IBM in the comp.os.os2.* threads (do not count crossposts, since
those include Mac, Linux, etc. users as well and what else would be the
common topic if not MS-bashing?), but I think that the numbers are pretty close.
Thomas Nagy
tho...@galileo.ifa.hawaii.edu
Jeff Glatt writes:
>>>>> OS/2 zealots are not disliked simply because they use OS/2 (although
>>>>> Ian Tholen would like to suggest such a thing).
>>>> Where did I suggest that as the sole criterion?
>>> Still having reading comprehension problems, Ian?
>>> Where did I say that you said that was the sole criterion?
>> See above, Jeff. Comprehend the "simply because" part.
> I comprehend "simply" just fine.
Obviously you don't.
> It's your assumptions about what I've said which is the problem.
Then it's not "simply because" of the above, Jeff.
> You've substituted the word "solely" for the word "simply".
If it's not solely, then it's not very simple.
> (You tend to make these sorts of unwarranted
> assumptions and substitutions of meanings in order to further your
> lies and misrepresentations about others,
What alleged lies and misrepresentations, Jeff?
> for example, seeing the word
> "Windows" in a quote which does not contain that word).
Where did I say anything about seeing a word that isn't there, Jeff?
You do understand context, don't you?
> Simply means:
>
> 1.a. In a plain and unadorned way. b. In an unambiguous way; clearly.
> 2. Not wisely or sensibly; foolishly. 3. Merely; only. 4. Absolutely;
> altogether. 5. Frankly; candidly.
Ah, playing the old word definitions games again, I see.
> The definition of simply is not "solely" number 3.
Too bad it's the one that applies in this context.
> That's why we have
> both the words "simply' and "solely" in the English language.
No, that's not the reason we have those two words.
> We wouldn't need them both if they were the same thing.
Who said anything about needing them both, Jeff?
> As such, I mean that the OS/2 Advocate has offered up an "explanation"
> (for why he is disliked) which removes all of his own actions and
> statements from the equation
Where has this "OS/2 Advocate" done such a thing, Jeff?
> in order to arrive at a simplistic (and
> incorrect) view that he is disliked because of the operating system
> that he has installed.
This is incredibly ironic, coming from the person who just objected to
the interpretation of "solely" and then comes along and talks about
"removes all of his own actions", despite the fact that the countering
of FUD is an action of this alleged OS/2 advocate's own. But such
illogic is par for Glatt's course.
> That's not so.
You're still suffering from tunnel vision, I see.
> That completely overlooks the
> real reason -- the OS/2 Advocate's hypocritical actions and statements
> (such as yours).
How ironic, coming from the person who just did a hypocritical action.
Perhaps you should consider why you are disliked. If you need a
refresher, I can reproduce the lengthy list of people complaining about
you, Jeff.
>>>> Having trouble remembering where I wrote that people don't like
>>>> having their FUD countered by me?
>>> Not at all.
>> Then why did you write "simply because" above when it's not that simple?
> In fact, the OS/2 Advocates' explanation for why he is disliked (much
> like your own "explanation" for why people dislike you) is extremely
> simplistic.
It is rather simple to note the people who don't like having their FUD
countered.
> You overlook the fact that it's your lies,
> misrepresentations, FUD, inconsistency, illogic, invective, etc, which
> people dislike -- not the OS you've installed.
Illogical, given that I haven't used any lies, misrepresentations, FUD,
inconsistency, or illogic, to have people dislike, Jeff. What someone
considers invective is subjective.
>>> In fact, I and others note that it's your emotional
>>> attachment to a brand name product,
>> Which brand name product might that be, Jeff?
> OS/2, Ian.
Incorrect, Jeff; I have no emotional attachment to that brand name
product.
>> Solaris? UNICOS? DOS? NeXTStep? I use them all.
> Irrelevant.
On the contrary, they are quite relevant, because they show that no
emotional attachment to one particular brand name product exists.
> The fact that you may have "used" (and I put that in
> quotations because your "use" of those is every bit as "substantiated"
> as your "use" of NT
Reading comprehension problems, Jeff? My usage of OS/2 is similarly
"unsubstantiated".
> -- in other words, it has not been established as relevant)
On the contrary, it has.
> has no bearing upon whether you have an emotional attachment to OS/2.
Balderdash; if I had an emotion attachment to OS/2, why do I have such
an easy time switching to whatever happens to be the right tool for the
job?
>> Well, it stands to reason that you would rely on invective, because you
>> have no logical argument on which to base a case.
> It stands to reason that you would dismiss legitimate complaints about
> your lies, misrepresentations, FUD, inconsistency, illogic, invective,
> etc, because you have no logical explanations for such.
There are no legitimate complaints to dismiss, Jeff.
> On the other
> hand, your emotional attachment to OS/2 explains it all perfectly
Obviously it doesn't. See above.
tho...@galileo.ifa.hawaii.edu
Jeff Glatt writes:
>>> It seems you are here because you're worried that some people are
>>> saying "negative things about OS/2".
>> On what basis do you make that claim, Jeff?
> Upon the basis that your stated goal is to "counteract FUD",
So, when somebody said the negative thing about NT not being able to
run 16-bit apps, and I corrected it, how does that involve OS/2, Jeff?
> and do so
> when you perceive it to be done by those you identify as the
> "anti-OS/2 group"
Was the person who made the comment about what NT could run from the
"anti-OS/2 group", Jeff?
> (ie, one of the simplistic generalizations of
> individuals you make).
How ironic, coming from the person obviously making a simplistic
generalization.
> Obviously, you're worried about that.
Explain why I countered the person making the comment about what NT
could run.
> Why are you so worried?
Still having reading comprehension problems, Jeff? Where did I say
I'm worried about anything?
>> Why should I worry about that?
> Why are you asking me why you're worried about others saying negative
> things about OS/2?
Because you seem to think I'm worried.
> Don't you understand your own alleged motivations?
Yes. Do you? Apparently not.
> Would that be because you're lying about your motivations,
Obviously not.
> and the
> real reason is because you have a sick, psychologically diseased ego
Ah, there you go hauling out the invective. But of course. You have
no logical argument to fall back on.
> which not only needs to portray itself as more "right" than your
> perceived "enemies", but has also fallen in love with OS/2 and needs
> to do the same with that.
Prove it, if you think you can, Jeff. I know you can't.
>>> It's your worry over a product with which you've fallen in love that
>>> makes you a lunatic
>> there's no logical argument that Jeff can use instead.
> Indeed, there is no logical argument that can explain your need to
> engage in lies, misrepresentations, illogic, FUD, inconsistency,
> invective, etc.
Fortunately, I don't need a logical argument to explain that in which I
have not engaged.
> That's because it's based upon your illogical,
> emotional attachment to a brand name product
You mean Solaris, which I used most of the day?
tho...@galileo.ifa.hawaii.edu
Jeff Glatt writes:
> Alain Southiere writes:
>>>> Actually, it seems you are here because you're worried that some
>>>> people are out to "destroy all that is MS and Windows".
>>> It seems you are here because you're worried that some people are
>>> saying "negative things about OS/2".
>> This is comp.os.os2.advocacy ! A newsgroup where
>> one expects to see OS/2 supporters. In light of this, Ian's presence
>> here seems much more "natural" than yours...
> You're free to endorse and defend Ian's brand of "OS/2 support", but
> frankly, it doesn't make you look good to do so.
On the contrary, Alain made a perfectly logical remark. How could
that possibly make him look bad?
> In fact, it confirms
> my suspicions that, in his brand of pedantic rhetoric, lies,
> misrepresentations, FUD, invective, inconsistency, reading
> comprehension problems, etc, you find the "nature" of truth.
Too bad there aren't lies, misrepresentations, FUD, inconsistency, or
reading comprehension problems involved in my brand of what you call
"pedantic rhetoric".
> You can have it if that's what you want.
Sounds like what he wants is for you to go someplace where it's
"natural" for you to be. Are you prepared to let him have that?
> But if you think that his
> lunatic version of "alleged-non-advocacy" OS/2 advocacy is going to be
> at all effective in actually getting more people inclined toward OS/2,
> you're greatly mistaken.
This is incredibly ironic! You recognize the fact that I don't consider
myself as advocating OS/2, but discount that, and your evidence consists
of me being ineffective at getting people to use OS/2! In reality, what
you just did is provide evidence that what I've said is entirely
accurate! Yep Jeff, I'm not trying to get people to use OS/2, so why
do you think I'm trying?
> Ian even alienates other already-committed OS/2 users.
Prove it, Jeff.
> I find it surprising that even the lunatic fringe would
> deem such an incredibly inept salesman as a good spokesman for COOA
Too bad I'm not selling OS/2, Jeff, so your argument falls flat on its
face, as usual.
Malloy
tho...@galileo.ifa.hawaii.edu wrote in article
<5ivajj$6...@news.Hawaii.Edu>...
>
> Jeff Glatt writes:
[snip - your typical, pointless, and merely argumentative point has been
noted and disposed of (in the round ("How round is round?" you'll ask
[chortle!]) file).]
> > Simply means:
> >
> > 1.a. In a plain and unadorned way. b. In an unambiguous way; clearly.
> > 2. Not wisely or sensibly; foolishly. 3. Merely; only. 4. Absolutely;
> > altogether. 5. Frankly; candidly.
>
>
> Ah, playing the old word definitions games again, I see.
Goose, gander, sauce, Tholen.
> > The definition of simply is not "solely" number 3.
>
> Too bad it's the one that applies in this context.
Since when does Tholen know the intention of a word used by the *writer* or
*speaker* of that word? Answer: he doesn't, he just plays someone who
thinks he knows better on Usenet. Jeff's right, Tholen, but you won't give
it up (you're afraid to admit you're wrong. Well, we *know* how often
you've been wrong before, Tholen, so there's not much to be lost).
> > That's why we have
> > both the words "simply' and "solely" in the English language.
>
> No, that's not the reason we have those two words.
O Great Know Knothing, why, then, do we have both words? [Note that Tholen
will never dare to answer a question he is none too sure of, for he might
learn something and we all know that he *can't* learn anything; we'll take
your silence on the subject as an admission that you don't know a thing,
Tholen.] Or are you practicing Truth by Proclamation again? [Boy, this is
*fun!*] [Of course, we'll have to put up with Tholen snippin' out
sentences or parts of sentence (perhaps not even whole clauses!), but, hey,
we get to see him make a fool of himself once again!]
[snip -- see previous snip]
> > We wouldn't need them both if they were the same thing.
>
> Who said anything about needing them both, Jeff?
Reading comprehension problems, Tholen? Jeff *just said it.* [Oy veh!]
{{[[((Oh, by the way, here are some extra parentheses to stick up your, um,
anywhere you choose, Tholen: ()(){}{}[][]))]]}} [Why, he can even use the
extras I don't need!]
Erik Funkenbusch
Jeff Glatt wrote in article <3356052b...@news.servtech.com>...
>>>>ian_t...@galileo.ifa.hawaii.edu
>>>>Actually, it seems you are here because you're worried that some
>>>>people are out to "destroy all that is MS and Windows".
>
>>>It seems you are here because you're worried that some people are
>>>saying "negative things about OS/2".
>
>>This is comp.os.os2.advocacy ! A newsgroup where
>>one expects to see OS/2 supporters. In light of this, Ian's presence
>>here seems much more "natural" than yours...
As a side note. Being one of the people involved in the original .advocacy
group (comp.sys.amiga.advocacy started it all some 5 -6 years back), I can
tell you that .advocacy groups were created for arguments by by both
supporters *AND* detractors. It was always intented to keep it out of the
non-advocacy groups (and it works for the most part).
My point? Everyone with an opinion belongs in a .advocacy group, not just
supporters.
Alain Southiere
In <3356052b...@news.servtech.com>, jgl...@servtech.com (Jeff Glatt) writes:
[...]
>>Alain Southiere
>>This is comp.os.os2.advocacy ! A newsgroup where
>>one expects to see OS/2 supporters. In light of this, Ian's presence
>>here seems much more "natural" than yours...
>You're free to endorse and defend Ian's brand of "OS/2 support",
Where did I say that I endorse Dave's post ? I even didn't defend
his "brand os OS/2 support". I simply said that the presense of an
OS/2 supporter in COOA seems a lot more natural than the presence
of an OS/2 and OS/2 users basher.
>but frankly, it doesn't make you look good to do so. In fact, it confirms
>my suspicions that, in his brand of pedantic rhetoric, lies,
>misrepresentations, FUD, invective, inconsistency, reading
>comprehension problems, etc, you find the "nature" of truth.
Oh well, everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how
ridicule... You sure are giving a great example of most of the above
by somehow infering that my previous post was a full endorsement
of Dave's post.
>You can have it if that's what you want. But if you think that his
>lunatic version of "alleged-non-advocacy" OS/2 advocacy is going to be
>at all effective in actually getting more people inclined toward OS/2,
>you're greatly mistaken. Ian even alienates other already-committed
>OS/2 users.
I might be wrong about this, but my impression is that Dave is simply
making fun of people such as you. In fact, it has been months since
I've seen him participate in a more serious thread, so I get the impression
that he has decided to devote his on-line time to keep anti-OS/2
zealots busy, sometimes in somewhat irritable manners (for the person
to whom he replies, at least).
After all, in all the years I've been reading COOA, the noise caused
by anti-OS/2 zealot has been increasing constantly. It's not that
suprising then to see some people taking more and more time
responding to this "invasion". Of course, ignoring such anti-OS/2
zealots would probably be a more effective weapon against them,
but some people seem to like engaging in flamewars. Once in a
while, even more moderate people can't resist :-)
>I find it surprising that even the lunatic fringe would
>deem such an incredibly inept salesman as a good spokesman for COOA
Well, he's certainly not as bad a spokesman as the anti-OS/2
zealots, who would belong in comp.os.os2.bashing...
After all Jeff, your constant attacks in COOA certainly don't make
you a good spokesman for Be :-)
Joseph Malloy
Whew! Thanks, Jeff, for compiling that compendium of "Stupid Tholen
Answers!" It was remarkable to read through that listing of
TholenLogic(tm). I had rather forgotten (who wouldn't want to, eh?!) some
of his amentia over the past months, but, then again, he's been posting the
same crap for a number of years now [no, Tholen, I'm not going to answer
your merely-argumentative question, "How much is a number of years;" anyone
who's been here for a while knows the answer!]. I snipped it, if you don't
mind, and may use it or parts thereof to remind him a the fool he makes of
himself in public. Thanks again!
Joe
chr...@ibm.net
Jeff Glatt wrote:
[snip]
Jeff,
COOA is a discussion newsgroup; please do not post binaries here.
Regards,
--
:::::===== Christian Gustafson
:::::===== chr...@ibm.net - "Do unto others before they do unto you."
========== Marina City - Chicago, Illinois
========== #include <os2.h>
Jason
chr...@ibm.net wrote:
: Jeff Glatt wrote:
: [snip]
:
: Jeff,
: COOA is a discussion newsgroup; please do not post binaries here.
That wasn't a binaries. That was one long f**king post. I can't believe
he posted that much stuff. Are you obsessed with something Jeff? I
think it is time for you to turn off the computer and do something
constructive and build a bird house, weave a wallet or plant a tree.
Seriously, you will feel better afterwards.
-Jason
chr...@ibm.net
I was being facetious here. Jeff, after reading your post for 30 days,
do we need to register it?
Joseph Malloy
Alain Southiere <als...@cam.org > wrote in article
<5j3lie$9...@tandem.CAM.ORG>...
> by anti-OS/2 zealot has been increasing constantly. It's not that
> suprising then to see some people taking more and more time
> responding to this "invasion". Of course, ignoring such anti-OS/2
> zealots would probably be a more effective weapon against them,
> but some people seem to like engaging in flamewars. Once in a
> while, even more moderate people can't resist :-)
Let me be clear about my participation as a member of The Anti-tholen
Brigade (TAB, for short), which, by the way, consists of many people, both
supporters of OS/2 and supporters of other OS's: I couldn't care less about
his OS of choice, I'd make fun of him regardless of OS, why, he could even
be a Windows 95 or Windows NT user and it wouldn't matter (not that he has
any experience with either). The point is, it's Tholen, and that's funny
enough! [paroxysms of laughter!] That's all that matters. If you want me
to say I love OS/2, Microsoft should be shot and dismembered, or some such
thing, I'll be glad to. Doesn't matter. On the other hand, Tholen's a
kick -- and he *deserves* a virtual kick, too. And as for "ignoring such
anti-OS/2 zealots" as you call them (in this case, it's more accurate to
say "anti-Tholen folk,") you'd think that Tholen might, but he doesn't.
It's quite predictable that he'll have something, sometime, to say about
this thread, too. That's what we *love* about him -- he's *so*
predictable. (By the way, I am too, but that's not the issue here.)
[Of course, we can't tell you the secret sign of membership in the TAB
(hint: it's a certain kind of gesture that involves the hand and some
finger(s)), but rest assured, we're on constant watch for more
TholenSpew(tm)!]
[Ok, members of TAB Cell 001, back to work!]
Joe
joseph
Jeff Glatt wrote:
[nothing of consequence]
William de Haan
In article <3354b3c2...@news.servtech.com> on Tue, 15 Apr 1997 18:02:28
GMT, Jeff Glatt wrote:
>Sure, businesses tend to be the entities most interested in legacy support.
>Nevertheless, you'd be surprised at the number of PC owners who say things like
>"I have this old software program that I've gotten accustomed to running, and
>before I'll even consider what upgrading can actually do for me, I have to be
>assured that I can still use this old thing". I guess it's like some sort of
>security blanket or something. I don't know. As I said, I'm not one of those
>guys who thinks that way. And that's what my point was.
It depends on the situation. For example, my accountant has TONs of clients that
use Quicken. He recommends it, and he's even given it to people as part of his
service: it pays for itself when he can see your transaction history all at once
rather than rummaging through a shoebox. Now, those customers would reject
switching to a new system (Microsoft Money, IBM OS/2 Cashworks, whatever) if
that meant losing all that existing data. Now, if the new BeBox PanootaCash
system could read the old Quicken files, that's one thing. But to simply abandon
a working existing system in favour of something just because it's newer is not
necessarily appealing to a lot of people.
>And Windows users are often convinced otherwise due to actually getting done
>what they want and need using MS products upon a daily basis. But then, it's my
>experience that MS customers tend to be more the endusers who aren't concerned
>with marketing details so much as they're concerned with doing particular jobs
>with computers, whereas niche OS "endusers" are too often willing, unpaid
Actually, most Windows users consider themselves to be PC users, first and
foremost, as opposed to a Mac. They choose Windows for the same reasons that
they choose a PC - they expect to be able to buy things in stores, they expect
that any peripheral will support their machine, etc.
________________________________________________________________________
William de Haan b...@deus.com 905-281-3523 Voice 905-281-3524 Fax
Deus Ex Machina Ltd., 3650 Kaneff Crescent, Mississauga, Ontario L5A 4A1
No hablo espanol. Non parlo Italiano. eG'K Hy's Klingon.
Brian Damon
Jeff Glatt wrote:
>
> >mals...@asimov.oit.umass.edu (Jason)
> >That wasn't a binaries. That was one long f**king post. I can't believe
> >he posted that much stuff.
>
Gosh!! Someone is forging your ID then. The signal to noise
ratio of the jglatt/tholen et all posts is very nearly 0,
which makes it only slightly less than the ratio for *.advocacy
in general. :-(
Brian
--
Disclaimer: Unless noted in the correspondence, all opinions
expressed are my personal opinions and should not be construed
as representing my employer, Lexmark International, Inc.
tho...@galileo.ifa.hawaii.edu
Brian Damon writes:
> Jeff Glatt wrote:
>> Jason wrote:
>>> That wasn't a binaries. That was one long f**king post. I can't believe
>>> he posted that much stuff.
>> I didn't.
> Gosh!! Someone is forging your ID then. The signal to noise
> ratio of the jglatt/tholen et all posts is very nearly 0,
Thanks to Jeff's running around in circles, trying to defend his
ridiculous claims.
> which makes it only slightly less than the ratio for *.advocacy
> in general. :-(
No surprise there.
Alain Southiere
In <3354d...@usamrid.isd.net>, "Erik Funkenbusch" <chu...@isd.net> writes:
>As a side note. Being one of the people involved in the original .advocacy
>group (comp.sys.amiga.advocacy started it all some 5 -6 years back), I can
>tell you that .advocacy groups were created for arguments by by both
>supporters *AND* detractors. It was always intented to keep it out of the
>non-advocacy groups (and it works for the most part).
There's a big leap between beeing a detractor of an OS and beeing an
anti-OS/2 users zealots. Some people here seem to be mixing the two.
>My point? Everyone with an opinion belongs in a .advocacy group, not just
>supporters.
When it's opinion on the subject of the .advocacy group, I agree with you.
But when it comes down more on attacking *users* of the OS rather then
criticizing the OS itself, it's entirely another matter.
William de Haan
In message <335a6f01...@news.servtech.com>, on Sun, 20 Apr 1997 19:39:32
GMT, jgl...@servtech.com (Jeff Glatt) wrote:
>Not for me. And that's what my point was because someone asked me
>about my own personal situation.
Ah. I was speaking to the general case.
>Like I said, I know that other people favor legacy support. Since I'm
>a programmer, I don't worry so much about "going where no other
>programmer has gone before" as endusers seem to do. And that's why
>I've gone through various OS's, and not been so attached to any one
>that it has in any way held back my decision to go with another.
Well, as a programmer, I agree, but as a businessman, I disagree. Watching IBM
enact OS/2 sepaku simply meant from a programmer side that I migrated to NT and
Linux; from a business point of view, however, legacy stuff did matter.
Fortunately (so to speak), so little native OS/2 stuff between 92-94 was best of
breed that there was no real problem migrating away from it. With DOS and
Windows, that's less true.
>We're saying the same thing. Windows users don't choose Windows simply
>because it's Windows. They choose it because of the amount and
>maturity of support available for it (and the expectation of the work
>that they can therefore get done with it)
Well, sure. If they expect to be able to go into a store and buy games,
applications, books, and expertise, then they are going to choose one of the
systems that provides that. In the mass market today, that's the Mac and the PC,
usually running either Windows 3.1 or Windows 95. Until and unless other systems
start reaching retail in similar quantity (ie. not just the OS, but plentiful
quality applications, as well), things won't change.
pcg...@ibm.net
In <335b0197...@news.servtech.com>, jgl...@servtech.com (Jeff Glatt) writes:
||Alain Southiere
||when it comes down more on attacking *users* of the OS rather then
||criticizing the OS itself, it's entirely another matter.
|
|zealot wants to take a swipe at an MS employee, or a magazine editor,
|or Windows endusers, or retailers, or anyone else who is in any way
|associated with Windows or MS and somehow not properly genuflecting
|before the zealot's pet product.
|
|Well, it's too bad if you don't like it when others give the OS/2
|Advocacy Rhetoric exactly what it deserves
Jeff,
You are a certifiable nut case. Where do you hide the laughing gas
to generate such eloborate fantasies about the "OS/2 Zealots" and
your super-hero alter ego, NetChump?
You don't make a difference here on c.o.o.a, you don't make a
difference in anybody's opinion who lurks here; and, I'd be willing
to bet, you don't make a difference (except possibly, displacement)
where ever it is you are in corporeal space.
The time wasted on replying to any of your posts comes out of the
entertainment category, not the OS advocacy category; since, you
make me laugh almost every day. To say nothing of the fact that
your opinions seem increasingly to be a not-very-subtle parody
of your own behaviour.
BTW, rumor has it that your legs are _really_ ugly...
Phil "Guido" Cava TeamOS/2
Help, PC!
Let us help you achieve Warp Speed today!
email at: pcg...@ibm.net
> Proud Member: Jeff Glatt OS/2 Zealots list, 01-MAR-97!
Curtis Bass
pcg...@ibm.net wrote:
-- snip --
> Jeff,
>
> You don't make a difference here on c.o.o.a, you don't make a
> difference in anybody's opinion who lurks here; and, I'd be willing
> to bet, you don't make a difference (except possibly, displacement)
> where ever it is you are in corporeal space.
Be careful, Phil -- if this imbecile begins to realize the truth of what
you are saying, he may suffer a case of spontaneous dismemberment, and
what a mess *that* would be!
Of course, this would only serve to make Jeff look even sillier than he
does already.
Curtis
cro...@kuentos.guam.net
In <335fa08...@news.servtech.com>, jgl...@servtech.com (Jeff Glatt) writes:
>>Curtis Bass
>>if this imbecile begins to realize the truth of what
>>you are saying
>
>what I'm saying, you'll discover that your "holy mission" to promote
>OS/2 has been a colossal failure, and one of the reasons why it never
>transcended its niche status
The only colossal failure here in this newsgroup is your pretense to be
sane.
Rgds,
Chris
"Devant le comportement irrationnel de sa machine, j'ai compris que se
poser en dfenseur de Windows releve de la plus profonde bassesse. J'ai
honte" --- Eric Bernatchez, "La Presse" newspaper, "Cyberpresse"
column, March 22, 1997, Montreal, Canada.
"Confronted with his machines irrational behaviour, it dawned upon me
that taking the position of Windows advocate is of the lowest possible
ethics. I am ashamed".
***cro...@kuentos.guam.net***
joseph
Jeff Glatt wrote:
>
> >cro...@kuentos.guam.net
> >The only colossal failure here in this newsgroup is your pretense to be
> >sane.
>
> as they apply to COM has been a colossal failure here in this
> newsgroup
The might OZ has spoken.
--
Joseph Coughlan
Replies are welcome at joseph_...@otter.monterey.edu
cro...@kuentos.guam.net
In <336836ea...@news.servtech.com>, jgl...@servtech.com (Jeff Glatt) writes:
>>cro...@kuentos.guam.net
>>The only colossal failure here in this newsgroup is your pretense to be
>>sane.
>
>Not true. Your ignorant, uniformed FUD about OO programming techniques
>as they apply to COM has been a colossal failure here in this
>newsgroup
This isn't really an issue about OO programming techniques. This is
really an issue about run time object oriented models. If a game or an
application is written with OO techniques, do you call the game or
application object oriented?
Get a grip.
Your real big failure is your attempts to mislead the topic.