torva...@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Linus Benedict Torvalds) writes:
Wow!  Another real programmer has joined this group.

If it becomes a stand-alone system, I will quit MINIXing.  There is no
need to ask "why?".  Sure, MINIX 386 might by nice, if only there would
be official support.  At the moment, you have to ftp a lot to get a 386
system working with all needed utilities and nobody knows when there
will be the next offical version.  Most MINIX systems are in a twilight
zone, somewhere between 1.5 with heavy patches and 1.6.16 with patches.
The result is a mix of POSIX and system 7 and heaven know what else.
Not that I am not happy with that MINIX, but there is no announcement
which promises to set a new standard.  I even don't know exactly what
patches are in my kernel and in my header files, some time ago I stopped
counting.  I doubt that most of my programs will compile on plain 1.5,
which is what you can buy.  FvK's "Advanced MINIX" might had been a
way out, but it failed due to copyright reasons.

A friend of mine is currently doing this.  A small system which runs
without limitations of segments would be great.  Without PH copyright,
one can just give sources to someone else for explaining a feature or
discussing a new implementation, without these diffs and diffs to diffs
and diffs to ...

Summary: It depends on your ability to ftp, on the archive you use and
on your personal capabilities, which system you will get.

I hadn't wrote something which might help you at this low level stage,
but once you reach the level of using it, you might look for a small
roff for man pages.  I would help you to port mroff, if you want to.
I hope that everybody else will help you with this project, it might be
a real alternative to MINIX.  What about setting up a mailing-list?  If
only enough people work on the library, it should be complete soon.

Michael

In article <9110072...@gandalf.informatik.rwth-aachen.de> mich...@gandalf.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Michael Haardt) writes:

        Me too ;-)

torva...@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Linus Benedict Torvalds) writes:

        I have been thinking of doing it (and partially actually
        did), but had no guts to do the whole work ...

        Official support means you have
                1)      Product
                2)      Team to support it

        Case 1 is easy, but for the case 2 I can not say the same ...
        They have to eat too ;-) i.e. work hard and get some
        salary too. Then they need shops etc. to sell the
        product/support.

        I don't need any "official support" .. the magical
        words mean ugly things to me. I have SEEN Sun's
        official support ;-)

        Network anarchy is the best official support.
        There certainly will be many unofficial good patches
        to Linux at nic.funet.fi. I try to keep them in
        good order.

        Yes, but that's because they are "officially
        suppiorted" patches .. NOT the whole sources.
        I try to keep also whole patched sources available.

        I do remember how I personally spent about 20 hours
        to patch 1.2 to 1.3d - but most of it was fooling
        around ftp bug (had to split it, and again split the
        splitted parts etc. after some real hacking ...).

        There are/were many things which cause/caused this.
        Andy didn't like to have "bignix", wanted to keep the
        systems first plain PC/XT (8088) level and as floppy
        system.

        I have been using Minix as a teaching too. But but but,
        it's really hard/unusable for that ! It takes too much
        time to fool around the kernel for a student, like
        if the work is to do simple driver to kernel .. the
        poor student has to make changes to million places around
        header/source files. And when another poor student
        makes a simple driver .. eh eh .. and you want to
        have one kernel with both drivers in it ...

        Some of the best are available at cs.hut.fi:pub/minix

        Also making Minix more commercial is not good thing;
        people like I don't want to make any commercial
        product better for other people to buy it. Nothing
        against dealing or getting money out of software,
        but others to gain my coding need to buy the product.

        You need always diffs to some level ;-)

        I wouldn't read the whole sources to find out how
        a feature is implemented.

        Linux is now certainly for hackers only.

        Now we have mailing list for Linux, it's:

                Linux-activi...@niksula.hut.fi

        And please, DO REMEMBER, REQUESTS to:

                Linux-activists-requ...@niksula.hut.fi

        Otherwise I will @@%$#@$#!$ you ;-)

        Net etiquette is to send requests to mailing-list-request
        address, otherwise thousands of people on mailing list
        will read your "please add me" etc. postings.

        I think libraries are ready in couple of months.
        But help is welcome !

        arl

In article <9110072...@gandalf.informatik.rwth-aachen.de>,
|>torva...@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Linus Benedict Torvalds) writes:
|>>[...about his fun new hacker's OS...]
|>Wow!  Another real programmer has joined this group.

Yes, and a welcome addition, too.  Linix sounds like fun.

|>[...more stuff about how Minix is out of control and Linix might be
a better alternative deleted for brevity...]

|>                             Most MINIX systems are in a twilight
|>zone, somewhere between 1.5 with heavy patches and 1.6.16 with patches.
|>The result is a mix of POSIX and system 7 and heaven know what else.
|>Not that I am not happy with that MINIX, but there is no announcement
|>which promises to set a new standard.  I even don't know exactly what
|>patches are in my kernel and in my header files, some time ago I stopped
|>counting.  I doubt that most of my programs will compile on plain 1.5,
|>which is what you can buy.

I will grant you that many Minix systems are not well controlled.  My own
system got so bad that I finally got fed up.  So I got the latest RCS sources
from my favorite GNU archive site and compiled them under 386 Minix.  Then
I moved my old /usr/src tree out of the way, copied in a clean 1.5.10 tree,
put the whole mess under RCS control, and started over.  It was a lot of
work, but I've now got a handle on my system.  I've installed just a few
strategic things, like Bruce's 386 diffs and Gordon Irlam's virtual
consoles.  The latest change was a big dose of patches to support the beta
version of Thomas Heller's port of the MGR window system.  I know exactly
what I've got and can reproduce any prior version on demand.

When I saw Michael's posting above, I felt compelled to submit a counter
example showing that it is possible to do interesting stuff on Minix
without losing control of the sources.  The discipline required to keep
in control is not onerous, and the rewards are quite large.  (Thanks go
to Lars Fredriksen for posting Minix diffs for RCS 5.5.)

Happy hacking!

Paul Allen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul L. Allen                       | pal...@atc.boeing.com
Boeing Advanced Technology Center   | ...!uw-beaver!bcsaic!pallen

From article <58...@bcsaic.UUCP>, by pa...@stehekin.Berkeley.EDU (Paul Allen):
Yes, that's the way one should do things.  No doubt that everything is under
control for you, but how can you say that software which works on your
system will compile and work on other machines as well? This isn't possible
without having two systems installed.

RCS does not work on small machines.  (Ok, Linux doesn't either.)

The main reason why I might be more happy with Linux is that I can get
a system with features, which isn't possible with MINIX.  It's right that
this isn't what AST intends with MINIX, but it is what most people like.

Nobody knows when there will be a new release of MINIX and what new
features it will contain.  There are *so* many patches, new and old
versions, that it is difficult to get a good system.  You can't just
get a complete set of patches.

I understand Andy's reasons, they are ok.  It is just that if there
won't be a new official version of MINIX soon, there will be n MINIXes,
each with its own set of patches.  That's no basic for new developments
and it is the difference to Linux, where you can just get a new version
with bugfixes and everything is ok.  At least, it is what I hope to see.

You can say: This works with version xyz.  MINIX has no version now, it
has a version range: 1.5.10 from PH until 1.6.16.x.

I use MINIX [1] because there is source and [2] because I like all its
features, patched or not.  [3] There is no other choice - until Linux is
a standalone system.

Michael

        Would you please try to check it out if you have on your library a "hanging terminals to MINIX" done. If you have please drop it to me.

                                Ricardo Santos

Hello all..
        I missed the original posting, so could someone please tell me
how I may obtain the sources.

Thanx

chris.

  chr...@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (C. G. Albone) writes:

  And me too !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  Also, are them available via e-mail (mail server or smth), as I'm
in the former Soviet Union and can't do any FTP.

  Thanks,
  Oleg
--
* Oleg Moroz               Surface address: P.O.Box 30, 103031, Moscow, USSR *
* Software Designer        Internet address:            mo...@inzer.demos.su *
* Steepler Ltd.            Phone:    +007 (092) 214-81-92, 245-21-94 (voice) *
* "I've looked over jordan and I've seen/Things are not what they seem" - PF *

Ok, as I've gotten quite a few questions, I guess I'd better follow up
again.

Linux is currently ONLY available via ftp from nic.funet.fi, directory
/pub/OS/Linux. As the sources change rather rapidly (next release due
out this weekend after I have tested some more), it is also currently
impractical to make them available from other places. There is a
mail-server possibility fron nic, but I think it's still in testing (you
could try mailing "mailser...@nic.funet.fi" with "help" in the body,
but I don't know if it will work).

Linux is a full kernel that has so far worked on a number (5-10?) of
at-386 (and one 486 as far as I know). It supports GNU cc (gcc), bash
and some other free stuff. It is currently more of a hackers kernel (and
minix-386 is needed, but that will change with this weeks release), and
the current version number is 0.03 (next is 0.10 I think).

Good things about linux:

- it's free, full source, and I try to correct bugs you find.
- it's a bit faster than minix, I think.
- uses paging for memory management (not to disk yet)
- multithreaded fs (but then you can get patches to minix that do
similar stuff)
- mostly full termios and vt100-console.
- most things easy to port (easier than to minix).

Bad points:

- ONLY 386/486
- early versions: there might be lots of bugs, and you might need to
port/hack things to work.
- minix is recommended even for the upcoming version that doesn't
absolutely need it.
- currently only VGA (EGA?) support, limited keyboard drivers (US and
Finnish) etc

You can mail me for more info. "finger torva...@kruuna.helsinki.fi"
might tell you something too.

                Linus (torva...@kruuna.helsinki.fi)