Windows Vista is slowing the Navy down ??
hsy...@gmail.com
Interesting quotes --
“We have achieved the promises of Moore’s Law,”
“Much more pervasive now is the problem with software.”
“Software is getting bigger and more complex,"
"The Windows Vista operating system is so much bigger than its
predecessors, that it is not any faster even though processing speeds
have increased.”
= = = ==================================
DOD wants apps up to speed
Despite hardware advances, complex code and heavy traffic put a drag
on systems Bloated operating systems and applications are preventing
military organizations from getting sufficient speed from their
information technology systems, according to several speakers at a
recent Navy IT Day in Washington.
“We have achieved the promises of Moore’s Law,” the decades-old axiom
that processing power would roughly double every 18 to 24 months, said
Chris Miller, the Navy’s domain lead for command, control,
communications, computers and intelligence (C4I).
“Much more pervasive now is the problem with software.”
“Software is getting bigger and more complex,” Miller said. “The
Windows Vista operating system is so much bigger than its
predecessors, [but] it is not any faster, even though processing
speeds have increased.”
Elizabeth Sedlacek, director of information systems and infrastructure
at the Marine Corps Systems Command, echoed Miller’s complaint.
“Windows 95 required 50M of hard drive space,” she said. “Vista
requires 15G.”
Part of the problem is that Moore’s Law isn’t the only one in the IT
universe.
Sedlacek said increased resource requirements from the multiplication
of software code illustrate an adaptation of Parkinson’s Law: software
will expand to fill the resources available to it. The original
Parkinson’s Law states that work would expand to fill the time
available. A corollary to Parkinson’s Law states that software
eventually reaches a coefficient of inefficiency, meaning that it gets
so large that it no longer processes data effectively.
Sedlacek summarized her conundrum by citing yet another law. “Wirth’s
Law states that software gets faster slower than hardware gets
faster,” she said. According to Wirth’s law, then, software will
always lag behind processing capacity.
But it wasn’t always so. “In the 1970s and 1980s, hardware processing
power was wanting, and programmers had to code effectively and
efficiently in order to get done what we needed to get done,” Sedlacek
said. “Now that capacity has increased and the software industry is
much larger, developers want to put lots of features on software and
to do it quickly in order to gain a competitive advantage. Efficiency
of coding is no longer a priority.”
A problem the Marines face, for example, is that they rarely operate
in a resource-rich environment.
Marines are on expedition-like missions when they deploy, Sedlacek
said, and they typically operate with a minimal footprint in areas of
limited bandwidth. They rely on small handheld devices for information
and communications.
She challenged industry to help solve the problem.
Aside from software coding, agencies could address the problem through
more efficient data management.
Miller suggested that the Navy needs a data strategy for how it
expands applications. Richard Hull, chief scientist at Modus Operandi,
agreed in an interview with GCN that getting smarter about collecting
and processing data will help software work more efficiently.
“Software gets slower because the data operating over a network is
increasing faster than computer processing rates,” Hull said.
Some satellites generate several gigabytes of data per second, Hull
said. “The next generation may be terabytes of information per
second,” he said. “If a computer has to deal with 100 times or 1,000
times the amount of data today than it did yesterday, it’s going to be
swamped.”
Hull suggested two strategies to cope with the glut of data. One
involves prioritizing so that only the data most relevant to the
mission is actually processed.
“A weather information system may have collected temperature once per
hour, yielding 24 readings per day,” he said. “Then a new technology
comes along allowing you to collect a new temperature reading every
second. That’s 600 times more information than you had before.
But that doesn’t mean you need to analyze it all in depth. You’re
really just interested in changes or anomalies.”
Using semantic architectures to analyze and filter data sets up
hierarchies of data and processing that can help ensure that only the
most interesting data climbs the ladder for in-depth analysis. “You
might have a network of 64 computers filtering the data and passing up
relevant data to a level consisting of 16 computers and then to eight
computers,” Hull said. “This can filter out a lot of junk and provides
a higher degree of fidelity in information collecting and analysis.”
Another possible solution is to use cloud computing schemes, he said.
Cloud computing refers to the ability to construct ad hoc networks of
computers that can share resources to tackle tough computing
challenges.
An organization might have 10,000 computers at its disposal. Cloud
computing provides a management structure by which, for example, 1,000
of those machines might be aggregated to solve a particular problem.
“It could take a year to build a network of
1,000 computers,” Hull said, “but the cloud computing architecture
allows this to be done quickly.”
Another potential solution comes in the form of muticore processing,
essentially assigning pieces of the puzzle to different processors
running simultaneously on a single device. There are limitations to
this approach, as there are with cloud computing, because most
applications are single-threaded, Sedlacek said. Muticore central
processing units do not increase computing power when the applications
can’t be divvied up into discrete tasks.
The premise of multicore computing is that the computing capacity of
microchips is leveling off and that the computing power inherent in
existing machines must be maximized and optimized. Making that happen
requires programmers to accomplish two things, said Joey Sevin, Navy
programs manager at Mercury Federal Systems. They must develop a
greater understanding of computer hardware, and they must do something
about how they write software.
“It requires people to think differently about applications and how to
write them,” Sevin said.
“Programmers are encouraged to throw off code quickly, but in the end
this is very inefficient when the application is single-threaded.”
Sevin said the solution is to use middleware that can coordinate
messaging among multiple processors. “What needs to happen is the
adoption of a standard” for a message passing interface, he said.
MPIs would allow existing computers to distribute tasks across their
existing processors and boost their processing power. The effect of
distributing computing assignments across multiple processors also has
the effect of making the software less complex, Sevin said.
Mercury is working on developing multiprocessor solutions for
processing sensor data.
Because data collection platforms are getting smaller and more
complex, Mercury wants to pool processing power to support multiple
missions.
“The idea is to create an environment adaptive to different
situations,” Sevin said. An unmanned aerial vehicle “may go out on a
mission.
When it finishes its job and transmits its data, the computing asset
may be reallocated to some other mission in another location and with
a different type of sensor.”
This type of system is designed to handle two problems inherent in the
collection and transmission of sensor data: latency and throughput.
Latency refers to the need for computing to function in real time.
Throughput problems arise when the volume of data overwhelms
processors and causes delays.
What sort of solution would the Marine Corps be most interested in?
Sedlacek leaned toward simpler and leaner software. She urged industry
to adopt open, modular and scalable software designs and to avoid
“featuritis.” She also suggested that the Marine Corps might develop
incentives for lean software design, and she urged software developers
to adopt the YAGNI principle: You Ain’t Gonna Need It, so don’t code
it.
= = = ==================================
Steve de Mena
> www.gcn.com/print/27_8/46117-1.html
>
> Interesting quotes --
>
> “We have achieved the promises of Moore’s Law,”
>
> “Much more pervasive now is the problem with software.”
>
> “Software is getting bigger and more complex,"
>
> "The Windows Vista operating system is so much bigger than its
> predecessors, that it is not any faster even though processing speeds
> have increased.”
>
>
> = = = ==================================
>
I don't see anywhere in this article where they say what OSs they are
using.
Steve
John
"Steve de Mena" <st...@stevedemena.com> wrote in message
news:qfudncEI1P8olLDV...@giganews.com...
Advocating junk again AS USUAL I see.
Steve de Mena
I was making a statement of FACT, as usual.
Steve
Frank
They (USN) must be using that POS toy os linux cause no where does it
say they're using Vista.
Frank
TheZorch
> I don't see anywhere in this article where they say what OSs they are
> using.
>
> Steve
If they have brains they are using the SELinux which was created by
the NSA. Its the most secure distribution of Linux and they encourage
all branches of the government to use it instead of Windows.
--TheZorch
Steve de Mena
I think you are over-selling SELinux as to what it really is and how
it was secured.
http://www.nsa.gov/selinux/info/faq.cfm#I1
"Security-enhanced Linux has no special or additional approval for
government use over any other version of Linux."
NSA does not favor or promote any specific software product or
platform; NSA is only promoting enhanced security.
Steve
dennis@home
<hsy...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e18a23ab-2f89-4da8...@1g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
A poor troll..
the important bit is
>>>>
“Software gets slower because the data operating over a network is
increasing faster than computer processing rates,” Hull said.
Some satellites generate several gigabytes of data per second, Hull
said. “The next generation may be terabytes of information per
second,” he said. “If a computer has to deal with 100 times or 1,000
times the amount of data today than it did yesterday, it’s going to be
swamped.”
<<<<<
Its the same for all OSes so you can insert any OS you like and the post
means the same.
In fact you probably can't insert windows there at all as its unlikely to
run the processing of terabytes of data from a satellite and it certainly
will not be Vista as it hasn't been around long enough and is a desktop OS.
follow ups set!
ray
>> www.gcn.com/print/27_8/46117-1.html
>
> They (USN) must be using that POS toy os linux cause no where does it
> say they're using Vista.
> Frank
Ah, then Linux must be much more popular than I had suspected. I always
assumed if it wasn't mentioned they were probably using MS - guess I was
wrong.
dennis@home
"ray" <r...@zianet.com> wrote in message
news:695jjoF...@mid.individual.net...
Probably, no mention of vista gives you several choices including: linux,
Mac, XP, 98, 95, CE, pSOS, DOS, and loads of others.
Choose the best one for the application and everything will be fine.
-hh
>
> ... no mention of vista gives you several
> choices including: linux, Mac, XP, 98, 95, CE,
> pSOS, DOS, and loads of others. Choose the best
> one for the application and everything will be fine.
IIRC, the USN had been using NT on some of their ships a couple of
years ago.
Here's some links:
<http://www.gcn.com/print/17_17/33727-1.html>
<http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/1998/07/13987>
<http://windowsitpro.com/article/articleid/18007/windows-nt-sinks-navy-
ship.html>
These are all pretty dated; not sure if there's more current info
online or not.
-hh
Ivan Marsh
Sorry... but the Yorktown meltdown had to do with a divide by zero error
in the engine power interface when the operator entered zero into a data
input field which was the fault of the person who programmed the control
software and had nothing to do with the operating system.
*This should in no way be misconstrued as an endorsement of windows. I
would not knowingly trust my life to a Microsoft OS.*
--
"Remain calm, we're here to protect you!"
Moshe Goldfarb
> *This should in no way be misconstrued as an endorsement of windows. I
> would not knowingly trust my life to a Microsoft OS.*
Ever been in a hospital?
If so ,you already have.
Ever go to the doctor?
If so, you already have.
Ever go to the dentist?
If so you already have.
Ever go to the pharmacy to get medications?
If so you already have.
....and so forth..
--
Moshe Goldfarb
Collector of soaps from around the globe.
Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/
Ivan Marsh
> On Fri, 16 May 2008 13:37:30 -0500, Ivan Marsh wrote:
>
>> *This should in no way be misconstrued as an endorsement of windows. I
>> would not knowingly trust my life to a Microsoft OS.*
>
> Ever been in a hospital?
> If so ,you already have.
>
> Ever go to the doctor?
> If so, you already have.
>
> Ever go to the dentist?
> If so you already have.
>
> Ever go to the pharmacy to get medications? If so you already have.
>
> ....and so forth..
I said I didn't WANT to know.
Moshe Goldfarb
Hahaha!
Good one.
The Ghost In The Machine
<ivan...@yahoo.com>
wrote
on Fri, 16 May 2008 13:53:47 -0500
<pan.2008.05.16....@yahoo.com>:
Well, FWIW my dentist also uses Windows to keep track
of appointments. AFAIK the drilling equipment and such
is not computer-controlled. I wouldn't worry
unnecessarily.
Bear also in mind that Java's EULA has the following clause:
3. RESTRICTIONS. [...] You acknowledge that Licensed
Software is not designed or intended for use in the design,
construction, operation or maintenance of any nuclear
facility. Sun Microsystems, Inc. disclaims any express
or implied warranty of fitness for such uses. [...]
(Personally, I'm not sure *any* language is explicitly
intended for use in the design of nuclear facilities --
or anything else, really. It's a strange inclusion, though.)
--
#191, ewi...@earthlink.net
"640K ought to be enough for anybody."
- allegedly said by Bill Gates, 1981, but somebody had to make this up!
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Moshe Goldfarb
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Ivan Marsh
> <ivan...@yahoo.com>
> wrote
> on Fri, 16 May 2008 13:53:47 -0500
> <pan.2008.05.16....@yahoo.com>:
>> On Fri, 16 May 2008 14:44:09 -0400, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 16 May 2008 13:37:30 -0500, Ivan Marsh wrote:
>>>
>>>> *This should in no way be misconstrued as an endorsement of windows. I
>>>> would not knowingly trust my life to a Microsoft OS.*
>>>
>>> Ever been in a hospital?
>>> If so ,you already have.
>>>
>>> Ever go to the doctor?
>>> If so, you already have.
>>>
>>> Ever go to the dentist?
>>> If so you already have.
>>>
>>> Ever go to the pharmacy to get medications? If so you already have.
>>>
>>> ....and so forth..
>>
>> I said I didn't WANT to know.
>>
>
> Well, FWIW my dentist also uses Windows to keep track
> of appointments. AFAIK the drilling equipment and such
> is not computer-controlled. I wouldn't worry
> unnecessarily.
Patient records getting mixed up, lost etc.
It doesn't have to be a direct failure, like say the Xray machine
controlled by Windows goes nuts.
It can be secondary and certainly *can* put your health at risk.
Ivan Marsh
It's not that strange.
Microsoft's license indemnifies them from any catastrophic failure of
their software.
It's sad that part of any software license pretty much says "Do not use
this software to do anything important."
At least Java went to Mars.
Moshe Goldfarb
Was Java running the innards of that 40 million dollar Tonka Toy that went
brain dead on Mars 10 minutes after it landed?
Ivan Marsh
Suggesting that hitting Mars much less landing safely on the surface is
trivial?
I don't know which systems Java was used in exactly... I just know it was
along for the ride.
Moshe Goldfarb
Not at all.
The thing fscked up.
I'm just wondering if Java was what fscked it up.
> I don't know which systems Java was used in exactly... I just know it was
> along for the ride.
--
the wharf rat
The Ghost In The Machine <ew...@sirius.tg00suus7038.net> wrote:
>
>(Personally, I'm not sure *any* language is explicitly
>intended for use in the design of nuclear facilities --
ADA?
dennis@home
"the wharf rat" <wr...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:g0l1rm$b44$1...@reader2.panix.com...
CHILL, been a while since I used that, in fact I can't remember the syntax
at all.
Canuck57
"-hh" <recscub...@huntzinger.com> wrote in message
news:1ad715c9-92b6-481a...@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
I remember reading that at the time it happened. I would have thought the
navy would have used something much more stable for critical operations.
Also more secure, like OpenBSD or something. Also cluster them for fail
over. Using NT was stupid, could have been real bad if they failed in an
active combat war zone at sea.
Steve de Mena
> I remember reading that at the time it happened. I would have thought the
> navy would have used something much more stable for critical operations.
> Also more secure, like OpenBSD or something. Also cluster them for fail
> over. Using NT was stupid, could have been real bad if they failed in an
> active combat war zone at sea.
NT Fail? What exactly do you know about Windows NT and its
stability/reliability?
Steve
Unruh
They can say anything they want in their license. the question is whetehr
the courts will accept it.
Eg, a ski lift operator here even had a sign disclaiming responsibil8ity if
anything went wrong with the lifts. They were successfully sued then their
lift broken and injured a bunch of people.
Moshe Goldfarb
> They can say anything they want in their license. the question is whetehr
> the courts will accept it.
> Eg, a ski lift operator here even had a sign disclaiming responsibil8ity if
> anything went wrong with the lifts. They were successfully sued then their
> lift broken and injured a bunch of people.
Correct.
That's the old roller/ice skate rink analogy.
Every one of these places has a sign that they are not resposnible for
injuries.
True if some idiot who has never skated before tries a "Hammil Camel" and
breaks his neck due to completely to his own stupidity.
Maybe not so true if it can be proven that the ice was defective, dirty or
the rental skates were poor quality or that the owner didn't police the
riff raff and someone tossed a soda can under the poor bloke's skates in
the middle of his performance.
It all depends......
Frank
Pay no attention to him. He's just an MS hating lying linux troll.
Frank
Adam Albright
Frank of course is a sheep molesting, pathological liar and all around
putz, doofus and world class moron. We all got your number Frank. No
matter what you say, we know you're a psycho, a pervert and mental
midget with absolutely no redeeming qualities at all.
John
> John wrote:
>>
>> "Steve de Mena" <st...@stevedemena.com> wrote in message
>> news:qfudncEI1P8olLDV...@giganews.com...
>>> hsy...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> www.gcn.com/print/27_8/46117-1.html
>>>>
>>>> Interesting quotes --
>>>>
>>>> “We have achieved the promises of Moore’s Law,”
>>>>
>>>> “Much more pervasive now is the problem with software.”
>>>>
>>>> “Software is getting bigger and more complex,"
>>>>
>>>> "The Windows Vista operating system is so much bigger than its
>>>> predecessors, that it is not any faster even though processing speeds
>>>> have increased.”
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> = = = ==================================
>>>>
>>>
>>> using.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>
>
> I was making a statement of FACT, as usual.
>
> Stev
No you stated NO FACT. The article clearly mentioned Vista.
Moshe Goldfarb
Please don't mention sheep molesting in comp.os.linux.advocacy because you
are sure to wake up Roy Schestowitz.
There is good reason why he is known around the campus. as "baaaa baaa
Schestowitz"
Canuck57
"Ivan Marsh" <ivan...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2008.05.16....@yahoo.com...
It still highlights the general poor quality of MS-Windows programming
methodologies spilling into serious software development cycles and today's
design techniques. While software has become more complex, it is also true
the teams developing it are much larger, better funded and generally less
disciplined. We somehow think a business NET ad-hoc programmer makes a
embedded systems programmer, and that is a fallacy for greed.
Quite frankly, it scares me to think MS-Windows is in command and control of
some warships, or even anything else. I wouldn't even board a cruise ship
if I thought it needed MS-Windows to make it go. Leave MS-Windows in the
pursers office, or the cocktail lounge. But not on the trim, power,
navigation -- sorry -- just don't trust the crap.
But people have already died because of MS-Windows insecurity and it isn't
widely acknowledged. Take the big NE power outage a couple of years ago.
At first, US said Canada did it, then Canada said the US did it. When in
fact it was some Microsoft Windows virus on a SCADA control network making
response so pitiful the power grid popped off line. Those dependant on
electricity, say a home medical device of some sort, some died.
Cite:
http://www.news.com/2100-1011_3-5063997.html
Yet we blindly fall into the pit of MS-Windows is good everywhere. When it
is clearly, as in Vista's case, and unpredictable over complex piece of
bloatware not fit for use anywhere except a wet fanboys dreams.
We need to get back to basics in this business and skip the caffeinated hype
turkey talk.
-----------
Incoming, oops, reboot - boom!
Canuck57
"Moshe Goldfarb" <brick....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1jbv7a0klatk.uynjo2lja7tj$.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Fri, 16 May 2008 13:37:30 -0500, Ivan Marsh wrote:
>
>
>> *This should in no way be misconstrued as an endorsement of windows. I
>> would not knowingly trust my life to a Microsoft OS.*
>
> Ever been in a hospital?
> If so ,you already have.
>
> Ever go to the doctor?
> If so, you already have.
>
> Ever go to the dentist?
> If so you already have.
>
> Ever go to the pharmacy to get medications?
> If so you already have.
Have you ever run Vista?
Root canals are nicer in the end, the pain goes away.
Moshe Goldfarb
I hate Vista however I'll still give root canal the edge in pain.
Frank
> On Sat, 17 May 2008 00:07:05 GMT, Canuck57 wrote:
>
>
>>"Moshe Goldfarb" <brick....@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:1jbv7a0klatk.uynjo2lja7tj$.dlg@40tude.net...
>>
>>>On Fri, 16 May 2008 13:37:30 -0500, Ivan Marsh wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>*This should in no way be misconstrued as an endorsement of windows. I
>>>>would not knowingly trust my life to a Microsoft OS.*
>>>
>>>Ever been in a hospital?
>>>If so ,you already have.
>>>
>>>Ever go to the doctor?
>>>If so, you already have.
>>>
>>>Ever go to the dentist?
>>>If so you already have.
>>>
>>>Ever go to the pharmacy to get medications?
>>>If so you already have.
>>
>>Have you ever run Vista?
>>Root canals are nicer in the end, the pain goes away.
>
>
> I hate Vista however I'll still give root canal the edge in pain.
>
canadian bacon is a failed IT (Idiot in Training). he is the gofer at
work. He hates MS and Vista cause he's too stupid to properly install,
configure and run it.
He's also just a GD lying linux troll and an asshole loser.
Frank
Bruce Grubb
Moshe Goldfarb <brick....@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 16 May 2008 17:00:21 -0500, Ivan Marsh wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 16 May 2008 17:57:01 -0400, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 16 May 2008 16:47:58 -0500, Ivan Marsh wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Fri, 16 May 2008 14:06:43 -0700, The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Ivan Marsh <ivan...@yahoo.com>
> >>>> wrote
> >>> At least Java went to Mars.
> >>
> >> Was Java running the innards of that 40 million dollar Tonka Toy that
> >> went brain dead on Mars 10 minutes after it landed?
> >
> > Suggesting that hitting Mars much less landing safely on the surface is
> > trivial?
>
> Not at all.
>
> The thing fscked up.
>
> I'm just wondering if Java was what fscked it up.
Might have been who ever NASA used as the subcontracter. Remember how
Lockheed Martin went off and put English standard units into equations
designed for Metric units and got the Mars Climate Orbiter clobbered?
When I went to college in the mid 1980's our physics book used metric so I
couldn't understand this. I mean why on Earth would anyone outside the
automotive industry use English standard units?!
Bruce Grubb
"Canuck57" <dave-n...@unixhome.net> wrote:
My dentist uses a Macintosh :-P
Moshe Goldfarb
> In article <1l1i4zt4ow56w.1le5ew7pmd4of$.d...@40tude.net>,
> Moshe Goldfarb <brick....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 16 May 2008 17:00:21 -0500, Ivan Marsh wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 16 May 2008 17:57:01 -0400, Moshe Goldfarb wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 16 May 2008 16:47:58 -0500, Ivan Marsh wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 16 May 2008 14:06:43 -0700, The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Ivan Marsh <ivan...@yahoo.com>
>>>>>> wrote
>>>>> At least Java went to Mars.
>>>>
>>>> Was Java running the innards of that 40 million dollar Tonka Toy that
>>>> went brain dead on Mars 10 minutes after it landed?
>>>
>>> Suggesting that hitting Mars much less landing safely on the surface is
>>> trivial?
>>
>> Not at all.
>>
>> The thing fscked up.
>>
>> I'm just wondering if Java was what fscked it up.
>
> Might have been who ever NASA used as the subcontracter. Remember how
> Lockheed Martin went off and put English standard units into equations
> designed for Metric units and got the Mars Climate Orbiter clobbered?
I believe they did a similar thing with the Hubble as well.
One team was using English the other metric.
Personally, as an Engineer, I could never understand the reasoning for
Englsih vs MKS.
> When I went to college in the mid 1980's our physics book used metric so I
> couldn't understand this. I mean why on Earth would anyone outside the
> automotive industry use English standard units?!
The problem is thinking and converting.
Example: Typical American (like me) knows a foot is *this long* (stretch
your arms out) but has no idea how big a meter is.
They are constantly trying to convert which makes a mess of things.
If they were taught in terms of MKS their would be no problem.
Moshe Goldfarb
My ENT does as well :)
Steve de Mena
Since I know from our previous discussions that you are a little slow,
I'll say it again, a little slower this time....
dennis@home
"Canuck57" <dave-n...@unixhome.net> wrote in message
news:KooXj.143874$Cj7.67171@pd7urf2no...
> I remember reading that at the time it happened. I would have thought the
> navy would have used something much more stable for critical operations.
> Also more secure, like OpenBSD or something. Also cluster them for fail
> over.
Clustering doesn't help with application software faults.
Its a common mistake people make, like thinking RAID is a substitute for
backups.
> Using NT was stupid, could have been real bad if they failed in an active
> combat war zone at sea.
Any application software failing during combat could be a problem.
That is why they like mature software on military systems.
dennis@home
"Bruce Grubb" <bgr...@zianet.com> wrote in message
news:bgrubb-1799DB....@news.zianet.com...
> When I went to college in the mid 1980's our physics book used metric so I
> couldn't understand this. I mean why on Earth would anyone outside the
> automotive industry use English standard units?!
If you look at the engineering you will find the automotive industry is
metric.
Jean-David Beyer
I found that out in the early 1960s. I was driving my Alfa Romeo Giulietta
Spider in Hartford Connecticut and my left front wheel bearing quit. I did
not live anywhere near there. I drove it into a gas station (they still did
car repairs there in those days) and wondered if they could possibly get a
wheel bearing for that, knowing it would be metric. They said sure, and
after measuring it, got on from their local supplier and had me out of there
in an hour or so at a very reasonable price. I asked how they happened to
have a metric wheel bearing for an Italian car. I was told that all wheel
bearings were metric.
--
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Little Billy
"dennis@home" <den...@killspam.kicks-ass.net> wrote in message
news:g0jfhc$3e7$1...@news.datemas.de...
>
>
> <hsy...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:e18a23ab-2f89-4da8...@1g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>
> A poor troll..
> the important bit is
>
>>>>>
> “Software gets slower because the data operating over a network is
> increasing faster than computer processing rates,” Hull said.
>
> Some satellites generate several gigabytes of data per second, Hull
> said. “The next generation may be terabytes of information per
> second,” he said. “If a computer has to deal with 100 times or 1,000
> times the amount of data today than it did yesterday, it’s going to be
> swamped.”
> <<<<<
>
>
> Its the same for all OSes so you can insert any OS you like and the post
> means the same.
>
> In fact you probably can't insert windows there at all as its unlikely to
> run the processing of terabytes of data from a satellite and it certainly
> will not be Vista as it hasn't been around long enough and is a desktop
> OS.
Erm, doesn't the military have operating systems that are top secret? If
they use windows or any of the other large operating systems it's for normal
stuff like record keeping and files. They don't guide satellites or missiles
with it or navigate ships.
>
> follow ups set!
Hadron
The Natural Philosopher
Sounds pretty accurate to me, having worked on just such teams in the past.
Hadron
I was referring to the MS Windows programming methodologies comment. The
"less disciplined" bit is crap too. Most projects are so damn
disciplined these days they have certificates coming out of their cracks
but very little SW. OSS is a different kettle of fish - almost zero
discipline and "yet another copycat program" every other day.
Bruce Grubb
Moshe Goldfarb <brick....@gmail.com> wrote:
I guess it is all a matter of when you grew up. My youth was filled with
those little metric shows on PBS that were basically 30 min PSAs. I still
remember that a meter is just a little longer than a yard, a dime is about
1 mm in thickness, and that a cubic decimeter = 1 liter = 1 kilogram which
is around 2.2 pounds. I also remember the old pint is a pound (ie 16
ounces) of the common system as well.
> They are constantly trying to convert which makes a mess of things.
>
> If they were taught in terms of MKS their would be no problem.
Strange thing is that the University of Utah taught ALL its physics courses
in metric in the mid 1980's. I guess I thought that is the way all
universities of that time taught their courses.
J.O. Aho
> hsy...@gmail.com wrote:
>> www.gcn.com/print/27_8/46117-1.html
>>
>> Interesting quotes --
>> “We have achieved the promises of Moore’s Law,”
>> “Much more pervasive now is the problem with software.”
>> “Software is getting bigger and more complex,"
>> "The Windows Vista operating system is so much bigger than its
>> predecessors, that it is not any faster even though processing speeds
>> have increased.”
> using.
There are a number of different operating systems in use at the US-armed
forces including Linux and microsoft. The recent years DARPA has
financed quite many Linux based projects, of course those projects
usually aren't for desktop use, and of course it's cheaper to blow up a
computer with Linux than one with microsoft, as you may loose the
license when you no longer have the original hardware left, otherwise
those missiles would need to eject the on board "computer" and the NAVY
SEALS has to do "rescue" missions to retrieve those machines ;)
--
//Aho
Moshe Goldfarb
They taught both systems when I was in engineering school in the late 70's
but the MKS system was used for the courses and the English system was just
taught to illustrate the differences.
Canuck57
Anyone in engineering and science had better know MKS. Not 100% sure of
this, but is not the US the last market on earth using metric? Even the
British sell gas by the litre.
Canuck57
"The Natural Philosopher" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:12110323...@proxy01.news.clara.net...
Maybe Hadron never worked on a well run, smooth, reliable, well performing
large scale software development project that was also on budget and on
time. Many have not had this experience.
Hadron
dennis@home
"Canuck57" <dave-n...@unixhome.net> wrote in message
news:XxDXj.275248$pM4.113716@pd7urf1no...
> Anyone in engineering and science had better know MKS. Not 100% sure of
> this, but is not the US the last market on earth using metric? Even the
> British sell gas by the litre.
>
Well we did invent the imperial *and* metric systems.
Charlie Tame
Well US standards ARE based on the metric system
http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/
And this is from Wikipedia
The use of two different systems was the root cause in the loss of the
Mars Climate Orbiter in 1998. NASA specified metric units in the
contract. NASA and other organizations worked in metric units but one
subcontractor, Lockheed Martin, provided thruster performance data to
the team in pound force seconds instead of newton seconds. The
spacecraft was intended to orbit Mars at about 150 kilometers (93 mi)
altitude, but the incorrect data meant that it probably descended
instead to about 57 kilometers (35 mi), burning up in the Martian
atmosphere.
Hadron
And here we see the thread twist.
Please go back and reread what is being discussed.
--
I was attacked by dselect as a small child and have since avoided
debian.
-- Andrew Morton
Charlie Tame
I was fortunate because before high school I learned the British system
(240 pennies in the GBP etc, yards feet and inches) but when I got to
high school they switched to Metric, so using both comes naturally to me.
In the 80s I worked for a US corporation and though we made all kinds of
fasteners (Nuts and bolts) and sold huge quantities of Metric ones all
over Europe the drawing office had to submit things to the US corporate
who insisted on all measurements being in "English" units. There is some
logic to this, high precision gauges are often very costly, so to draw
and measure in the one standard avoids a lot of expense.
So I guess I have stayed in practice with both.
Canuck57
"Hadron" <hadro...@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:g0mojf$i1e$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
A good process as squat to do with "certificates". In fact the best people
I know in software engineering have degrees/diploma but no certifications,
they are viewed as a wasted effort in advanced levels of software
engineering. Certs are for those that are new, need to show they have a
minimum competency level. Any meaningful certifications are the ones for
the processes and the verification that they are being followed buy the lab.
I was referring to the process of good software design. Requirements,
business cases, documentation, cost analysis, risk, evolution of processes
in a full SQA model.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_Quality_Assurance
How many Microsoft shops have a working SQA modeled process? Many don't
even have a QA position, and if they do they are under funded and under
staffed often without written test plans. How many even have centrally
managed and monitored document/source code control? Source Safe, LOL.
Coding is often ad-hoc and not peer reviewed. Lets not get into the lack of
design documentation, absence of solid planning, requirements and risk
analysis. How many Microsoft projects are on time? Vista anyone?
If you are writing command and control code for something like a nuclear
warship, it isn't like your average I/T shop, or I hope not. Lets whip out
some .NET and some XML because it is whey cool does not float, but might get
you fired. Coding in a well designed and managed project is really just a
short mechanical exercise near the middle-end of the project cycle. On
time, on budget and delivers exactly what is required.
Hadron
You, again, misunderstand. I was referring to certificates for successful
phase completion in an overly engineered development process. Think ISO
and all the bollox that entails.
> I know in software engineering have degrees/diploma but no certifications,
> they are viewed as a wasted effort in advanced levels of software
> engineering. Certs are for those that are new, need to show they have a
> minimum competency level. Any meaningful certifications are the ones for
> the processes and the verification that they are being followed buy the lab.
I agree. Certification for things like "Word user" tends to be
laughable.
Canuck57
But this is my point. But maybe not clear.
Why use a complex, hard to review and less stable OS than say pSOS or
vxWorks or even a skinny down version of RTOS like Linux? Why use a complex
high maintenance insecure OS like NT? Seems kind of stupid as simplicity
also has value in reliably, real time response and maintenance. If for
nothing else, less to go wrong.
The need and use of hard drives also bothers me. Get a minor hit vibrating
through the hull and the heads crash...
Agree with clustering, that is primarily for hardware faults. But it would
be nice to know a war ship with nukes has more than one frail way of command
and control.
Hey Scotty, come up and replace this NT DLL or hard drive so we can launch
these damn things...whew...scary thought with a SU 30 or SU 47 coming at
you.
dennis@home
"Canuck57" <dave-n...@unixhome.net> wrote in message
news:rAEXj.145638$rd2.122813@pd7urf3no...
>> Any application software failing during combat could be a problem.
>> That is why they like mature software on military systems.
>
> But this is my point. But maybe not clear.
>
> Why use a complex, hard to review and less stable OS than say pSOS or
> vxWorks or even a skinny down version of RTOS like Linux? Why use a
> complex high maintenance insecure OS like NT?
You have a point, I suspect that they use it because it isn't any of those
things.
> Seems kind of stupid as simplicity also has value in reliably, real time
> response and maintenance.
It does, probably the reason they don't like big monolithic kernels much.
> If for nothing else, less to go wrong.
True, but if you are doing a tactical display you would have to add so much
code to pSOS/vxWorks that you would introduce more bugs than there are in an
OS that has been in use (and tested) by millions for several years.
>
> The need and use of hard drives also bothers me. Get a minor hit
> vibrating through the hull and the heads crash...
Shock protection, they are used in far worse places than a war ship.
They used to have HD in cruise missiles incase you didn't know (probably
still do in some).
>
> Agree with clustering, that is primarily for hardware faults. But it
> would be nice to know a war ship with nukes has more than one frail way of
> command and control.
It has, but that would be classified.
Canuck57
Oops, no. Should read...
....but is not the US the last market on earth using imperial measurement?
Canuck57
No twist. You are likely one of those cowboy developers. My guess anyway.
Don't like processes that are repeatable and well defined.
Lets hope you never write code for something that results in life or death.
Or losing a billion dollar ship for a couple of bucks of structured software
development.
What?
> "dennis@home" <den...@killspam.kicks-ass.net> wrote in message
> news:g0m270$h4o$1...@news.datemas.de...
>>
>
> these damn things...whew...scary thought with a SU 30 or SU 47 coming at
> you.
>
You'll be wise to limit your technical expertise to how to turn on the
fryer to fry tacos at Taco Bell.
Hadron
At no stage did I say that. I use such processes. Please quote me saying
otherwise.
> Lets hope you never write code for something that results in life or death.
> Or losing a billion dollar ship for a couple of bucks of structured software
> development.
hate to tell you old bean but I have worked on just such. And under
tight, tight process control.
Why are you slinging allegations around?
The issue at debate here is this silly claim about "Loose MS standards"
and Hilliards ridiculous boasting about how he selects the best OS
*AFTER* he has manged these mega projects to completion.
The Natural Philosopher
> "Canuck57" <dave-n...@unixhome.net> writes:
>
>> "Moshe Goldfarb" <brick....@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
>> this, but is not the US the last market on earth using metric? Even the
>> British sell gas by the litre.
>
> Is there some subtle joke in this ludicrous statement?
Not really. its true.
Well we sell PETROL by the litre, Gas is sold by the cu ft I believe.
The Natural Philosopher
French invented the metric system AFAICR.
Imperial was developed in Europe..hard to say that England was where it
really started.
The 'Mile' is a thousand paces..standardised Roman paces..
The 'yard' is how for you can pull a bowstring, or a bolt of cloth with
one hand to the body and the other extended..
etc..
Hadron
> Hadron wrote:
>> "Canuck57" <dave-n...@unixhome.net> writes:
>>
>>> "Moshe Goldfarb" <brick....@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>>> Anyone in engineering and science had better know MKS. Not 100%
>>> sure of this, but is not the US the last market on earth using
>>> metric? Even the British sell gas by the litre.
>>
>> Is there some subtle joke in this ludicrous statement?
>
> Not really. its true.
Actually, no, really, it is not.
> Well we sell PETROL by the litre, Gas is sold by the cu ft I believe.
So?
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Paul Hovnanian P.E.
>
[snip]
>
> Erm, doesn't the military have operating systems that are top secret?
The fact that they use a particular product might be a secret. But that
product might be something available to the public, possible only
slightly modified.
> If they use windows or any of the other large operating systems it's for normal
> stuff like record keeping and files.
Many UIs for command and control use commercial desktops.
> They don't guide satellites or missiles with it or navigate ships.
The embedded s/w may indeed be special purpose. But the consoles that
the operators use are standard, commercially available packages in many
cases.
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Pa...@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
APL is a write-only language. I can write programs in APL, but I
can't read any of them.
-- Roy Keir
Ivan Marsh
> Little Billy wrote:
>>
> [snip]
>>
>> Erm, doesn't the military have operating systems that are top secret?
>
> The fact that they use a particular product might be a secret. But that
> product might be something available to the public, possible only
> slightly modified.
The U.S. military used to use SCO System V quite a lot. Probably still
does.
--
"Remain calm, we're here to protect you!"
Rich
After watching "Inside 9-11" on the History channel last night it isn't the
computers that are slowing any of the services down!.
Paul Hovnanian P.E.
But that was a secret. Now they're going to have to kill you. ;-)
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Pa...@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Our bombs are smarter than the average high school student.
At least they can find Kuwait. - A. Whitney Brown