In article <87vcnl01...@enews4.newsguy.com>, Urchin <urc...@skidrow.com> wrote: >Boy you guys know way too much about linguistics. Without going into a >rambling discussion about how English grammar and pronunciation rules come >into play (because honestly, when we see a new word we don't roll through >the laws of English to determine how to say it), has anyone considered that >to someone speaking English, LeeNooks just sounds goofy? It's cumbersome, >and sounds like one of those things a two year old blurts out while looking >for it's passifier. To someone speaking a different language, that >combination of sounds might be absolutely normal - but in English, it's just >odd.
But you are saying exactly the same thing I was saying. The reason LeeNooks sounds goofy to English speakers is precisely *because* it breaks English pronunciation rules. We *do* roll through the "laws of English" every time we speak it; we just don't do it consciously.
>I think Lynn-ucks (the way I prefer to pronounce it) simply comes from >looking at the pronunciation of minix, and throwing an "L" at the front. To >my knowledge, minix is not pronounced MeeNooks.
Lynn-ucks is certainly workable in English.
>Line-ucks on the other hand, simply comes from an assumption based on taking >a glance at the word itself. It looks like it ought to be pronounced >line-ucks based on how English speaking people learned to associate letters >with sound. I guarantee the first time any English speaking person looks at >that word Linux, it *will* be pronounced line-ucks.
Given that most people first learn about Linux by reading about it I think this is a fairly big advantage...
>It's only after learning the origins of Linux that I changed my >pronunciation to reflect that.
.... because you don't *have* to change your pronunciation from your first impression. The easier we can make things the better, and I think that includes pronunciation.
>Does it matter? Nope.
I think it does matter a little. Linux represents a whole new computing paradigm, and for many people this is already going out on a limb. The fact that there is uncertainty about the way "Linux" is pronounced has to add to the discomfort, at least a little bit. -- John Brock jbr...@panix.com
> In article <87vcnl01...@enews4.newsguy.com>, Urchin <urc...@skidrow.com> wrote: > >Boy you guys know way too much about linguistics. Without going into a > >rambling discussion about how English grammar and pronunciation rules come > >into play (because honestly, when we see a new word we don't roll through > >the laws of English to determine how to say it), has anyone considered that > >to someone speaking English, LeeNooks just sounds goofy? It's cumbersome, > >and sounds like one of those things a two year old blurts out while looking > >for it's passifier. To someone speaking a different language, that > >combination of sounds might be absolutely normal - but in English, it's just > >odd.
> But you are saying exactly the same thing I was saying. The reason > LeeNooks sounds goofy to English speakers is precisely *because* it > breaks English pronunciation rules. We *do* roll through the "laws of > English" every time we speak it; we just don't do it consciously.
Well stated points sir. Yes, my reply is, in retrospect, a reiteration of your earlier post. I just broke it down into layman's terms. Generally when people start talking about the complexities and rules of a speech pattern or language; rolling out phrases like "breaks English pronunciation rules", they also start to lose the listening audience. You obviously know a tremendous amount about the subject, something I admire - but like people who are gifted with a great deal of knowledge on a given subject, you lost sight of what the listening (or reading in this case) audience is looking for. The original poster (I'm quite sure) was looking for a simple phonetic breakdown, and instead got the entire hooked on phonics box set. I'm not trying to start a flame, so don't misinterpret - your points are very explicit, and very intelligent. I just believe strongly in explaining things to people in the easiest, most understandable manner possible to avoid confusion. At least at first go around.
> >I think Lynn-ucks (the way I prefer to pronounce it) simply comes from > >looking at the pronunciation of minix, and throwing an "L" at the front. To > >my knowledge, minix is not pronounced MeeNooks.
> Lynn-ucks is certainly workable in English.
> >Line-ucks on the other hand, simply comes from an assumption based on taking > >a glance at the word itself. It looks like it ought to be pronounced > >line-ucks based on how English speaking people learned to associate letters > >with sound. I guarantee the first time any English speaking person looks at > >that word Linux, it *will* be pronounced line-ucks.
> Given that most people first learn about Linux by reading about it I > think this is a fairly big advantage...
> >It's only after learning the origins of Linux that I changed my > >pronunciation to reflect that.
> .... because you don't *have* to change your pronunciation from your > first impression. The easier we can make things the better, and I > think that includes pronunciation.
I concede here. A standard pronunciation would be preferable. Unfortunately, the only way to standardize the pronunciation is to get the creator, and the media, to decide and publish a fixed definition that doesn't sound nuts. That (also quite unfortunately) does not include the actual pronunciation. This means Linus would have to break down and alter his own pronunciation (highly unlikely), since LeeNooks just isn't going to happen (unless the spelling was changed). Since I think everyone can accept Linus won't be changing the pronunciation of his baby, we're all left to our own methods for pronouncing it. Eventually, provided market share grows significantly, enough people will be bouncing the word around that a standard pronunciation will emerge. It is in our nature to *not* sound abnormal to those around us - so we tend to adopt whatever local variant emerges. As that local area grows, a new global standard emerges. Based on your statement that most people first read about Linux, I would guess Line-ucks will come out on top. Eventually.
> >Does it matter? Nope.
> I think it does matter a little. Linux represents a whole new > computing paradigm, and for many people this is already going out on a > limb. The fact that there is uncertainty about the way "Linux" is > pronounced has to add to the discomfort, at least a little bit. > --
All I can say on this point is that in a room of diversified people, an odd pronunciation (be it Line-ucks, Lynn-ucks, or LeeNooks) will generally be overlooked. Most people you would engage in conversation about OS's with will accept any of the three pronunciations without pause. It's not as if any of the pronunciations will be confused with another product. Even the average Joe on the couch watching the news is comfortable with any of the three. He'll default by nature to the one he hears first, and will change if someone he considers more knowledgable than the evening anchor tells him differently. We're looking at a "bubbler" vs "water fountain", "pop" vs "soda" argument here. If a person from the midwest asks someone on the West coast for a "soda", it may sound odd, but is generally acceptable. We are used to dealing with a variety of words and pronunciations that mean the same thing, and I don't think people blink at confusion over this one. We stumbled through "rendezvous" as a people, we'll pull through this one as well.
As for trepidation based on the pronunciation, I think the only people put on edge about Linux based on this topic are those that post a linux newsgroup asking how to pronounce it. It sounds like a good idea I admit (surely the linux users must know), but you'll never come away with a reasonable answer. I'm sure the original poster, while entertained, still has no idea how to pronounce the word. But at lease he/she can gain comfort in the fact that nobody else has settled on a pronunciation either.
For the record, and despite my own now habitual pronunciation, I say go with your first instinct (most likely Line-ucks). If your friends disagree, they'll come around. And then their friends, and their friends, etc.
John - sorry if I seemed out of line. The intent was not to derail you in any way. I'm just bored as hell right now, and this is an interesting topic.
> Boy you guys know way too much about linguistics. Without going into a > rambling discussion about how English grammar and pronunciation rules come > into play (because honestly, when we see a new word we don't roll through > the laws of English to determine how to say it), has anyone considered that > to someone speaking English, LeeNooks just sounds goofy? It's cumbersome, > and sounds like one of those things a two year old blurts out while looking > for it's passifier. To someone speaking a different language, that > combination of sounds might be absolutely normal - but in English, it's just > odd.
> I think Lynn-ucks (the way I prefer to pronounce it) simply comes from > looking at the pronunciation of minix, and throwing an "L" at the front. To > my knowledge, minix is not pronounced MeeNooks.
No, but then again, it's not spellt the same way either. And as someone else pointed out I think it comes more from Linus than from Minix.
> Line-ucks on the other hand, simply comes from an assumption based on taking > a glance at the word itself. It looks like it ought to be pronounced > line-ucks based on how English speaking people learned to associate letters > with sound. I guarantee the first time any English speaking person looks at > that word Linux, it *will* be pronounced line-ucks.
As a Swede I don't fully understand this. If someone more familiar [than me] with the finer grains of why Linux become Line-ucks while 'linger', 'link', 'linseed', 'lintel' and 'list' (just some words I found on the same page in my dictionary) does not I would be grateful.
> It's only after learning the origins of Linux that I changed my > pronunciation to reflect that.
> Does it matter? Nope.
> Urchin
> John Brock <jbr...@panix.com> wrote in message > news:87qj8l$42d$1@panix.com... > > In article <38A05E1C.8C387...@axxess.net>, > > Forrest Taylor <forr...@axxess.net> wrote: > > >John Brock wrote:
> > >> In article <3898AF40.57898...@NOSPAM.dtek.chalmers.se>, > > >> Oskar \"Beo\" Berggren <d99...@NOSPAM.dtek.chalmers.se> wrote:
> > >> >Linux should be pronounced as Linux, not leyenux. > > >> >I think one can say that the i should be longer than in > > >> >for example 'pitch' but not as long as in 'heel'.
> > >> >On www.linux.org, click on 'More' next to 'What is > > >> >Linux?'. Scroll down to the links. You will find > > >> >'How to Pronounce "Linux"', which is a .au file > > >> >of Linus Torvalds pronouncing it (in Swedish, there > > >> >is also an english version, although the name 'Linux' > > >> >is of course the same in both).
> > >> >Another thing you can do is learn Swedish :-). Assuming you do it > > >> >good it should become clear then, as in Swedish an i is always > > >> >pronounced as in 'pit' or as in 'heel'. That is, Swedish > > >> >doesn't have the 'eye' form of i.
> > >> The way that Linus pronounces "Linux" is a matter of little interest to > > >> an English speaker (unless he's the sort of affected language snob who > > >> tries to pronounce the names of foreign cities the same way the locals > > >> do). We want "Linux" to become a commonly used word in English, don't > > >> we? :-) As such it has to be naturalized to use standard English > > >> vowels sounds. I think it makes more sense for "Linux" to rhyme with > > >> the name "Linus" (as I believe is the case in Swedish). Others prefer > > >> to rhyme it with "cynics". You can pick one or the other, but I > > >> certainly don't think it's a good idea to demand that millions of > > >> English speakers to try to approximate a non-English pronunciation!
> > >What are you talking about? Millions of English speakers approximate > > >non-English pronunciation all of the time. Look at lasagna, jalapeno, > > >deja vu, etc., etc. Or even million. Do you say mil--lion (like the > > >animal)? Why not say it like he does?
> > Because it just isn't going to happen. The typical way that English > > assimilates a word is to create a new word that *approximates* the > > original pronunciation but in fact follows standard English > > pronunciation. All of the examples you gave, when I use them or when I > > hear other English speakers use them, use standard English consonants > > and vowels and word patterns, and have in fact become normal English > > words. What is *not* going to happen is people saying "LEAN-ooks" > > (which breaks a rule about how English treats unstressed syllables), or > > use an "i" sound which is "half way between a long i and a short i" (as > > I believe someone suggested earlier in this thread). The word "Linux" > > *will* end up being pronounced in a way which is comfortable for > > English speakers, just like the examples you listed above. > > -- > > John Brock > > jbr...@panix.com
My suspicion is that this thread will finally die in the next year or so, but before it does let me get in my two cents about why I hate the way the pronunciation current is going. First of all, I figure the natives have the right to pronounce a word in the way that's most comfortable for them. When I lived in Central America, everybody called me Yoan Caro because John Carroll was unpronounceable to them. In the U.S. we have a traditional way of pronouncing Linus, as in Linus from Peanuts or Linus Pauling who collected Nobel Prizes. So for me it was natural that since Mr. Torvalds' first name was Linus and the operating system he founded was named after him (Linux, in case you hadn't guessed) we native English speakers ought to pronounce Linux as if it were Linus with the s replaced by an x. That is, we'd naturally pronounce Linux with a long i. But the language nuts got ahold of the thing and told the reporters the true pronunciation was linux with a short i, and now the TV and radio guys pronounce it that way, whether or not they know how it works or what it does. And since the general population mostly learns about Linux from the media, we're all going to have to pronounce it with a short i or look stupid. I've been using the long i for five years now, but the game is lost. Now we'll all have to pronounce it the way the radio and tv reporters do. Such is the evolution of language in our times.
On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:04:32 +0100, Oskar \"Beo\" Berggren <d99...@NOSPAM.dtek.chalmers.se> wrote:
> No, but then again, it's not spellt the same way either. And as someone > else > pointed out I think it comes more from Linus than from Minix.
I agree on that. It's not 'linix' after all. :)
> > Line-ucks on the other hand, simply comes from an assumption based on taking > > a glance at the word itself. It looks like it ought to be pronounced > > line-ucks based on how English speaking people learned to associate letters > > with sound. I guarantee the first time any English speaking person looks at > > that word Linux, it *will* be pronounced line-ucks.
> As a Swede I don't fully understand this. If someone more familiar [than > me] > with the finer grains of why Linux become Line-ucks while 'linger', > 'link', > 'linseed', 'lintel' and 'list' (just some words I found on the same page > in my dictionary) does not I would be grateful.
Like 'linux' (the "right" way, anyway :)): virus, sinus, minus Or with a different vowel (but likewise long): redux, Jesus, lemur or even Peter or penal.
The first vowel is made long because of the second vowel. But that all changes when there are two consonants... that sucks the power away from the vowel, 'cirrus', for example.
Your examples all have two consonants after the first i.
Of course, there are counter examples for everything since English breaks its own rules all the time.
-- Brian Moore | Of course vi is God's editor. Sysadmin, C/Perl Hacker | If He used Emacs, He'd still be waiting Usenet Vandal | for it to load on the seventh day. Netscum, Bane of Elves.
On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 23:09:01 GMT, Lucas <basur...@jazzfree.com> wrote: >I don't agree with that Linux's pronounciation comes from minix. As far >as I'm concerned it is derived from the founder's name Linus (Torvalds). >In English this is pronounced /'lai - nes/
GEEZ! Did my post not propagate or something. First off since his name isn't `lai - nes' there's no reason why we should change it just because we speak English. You don't go around changing someone's name because you want to. It could all get messy, y'know. The late actor Toshiro Mifune becomes `To-shai-ro Mai-foone'? The anime film Akira is pronounced `Akai-ra'? I don't think so but a lot of you folks seem to use that reasoning here. This is all so silly, really.
Secondly, Linux's pronounciation does come from minix. I'm not sure what minix actually means but I _assume_ `mini unix' or something. I will admit, I used to pronounce minix as `my-nix' for the longest time only because I had never heard it pronounced before nor knew what it meant exactly.
Here again is part of the post where Linus explains the pronunciation. Should make it a frequent post, like a FAQ.
--- BEGIN --- [snippage] The local paper, when doing a story about Red Hat's IPO, threw in the pronunciation as LINN-ucks.
Well, here's something from my May 1992 issue of UNIX User (special Linux issue). <begin> QUESTION: What is the proper pronunciation for ``Linux''? ANSWER: (Linus himself) `li' is pronounced with a short [ee] sound: compare prInt, mInImal etc. `nux' is also short, non-dipthong, like in pUt. It's partly due to minix: linux was just my working name for the thing, and as I wrote it to replace minix on my system, the result is what it is... linus' minix became linux.
I originally intended it to be called freax (although buggix was one contender after I got fed up with some of the more persistent bugs :) and I think the kernel makefiles up to version 0.11 had something to that effect (``Makefile for the freax kernel'') in a comment. But arl called the linux directory at nic.funet.fi pub/OS/Linux, and the name stuck. Maybe just as well: freax doesn't sound too good either (freax is obviously free+freak+plus the obligatory -x). <end> --- END ---
Now, if that doesn't explain it plainly enough this topic, nay argument, will go on for the next decade.
BTW, the Linux FAQ, which is posted here regularly, has a section on this topic (9.10). Not too different from the above.
In article <slrn8aagvf.g0v.mar...@DigiSensei.flash.net>, Marc D. Williams <mar...@flash.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 23:09:01 GMT, Lucas <basur...@jazzfree.com> wrote: >>I don't agree with that Linux's pronounciation comes from minix. As far >>as I'm concerned it is derived from the founder's name Linus (Torvalds). >>In English this is pronounced /'lai - nes/ >GEEZ! Did my post not propagate or something. First off since his name >isn't `lai - nes' there's no reason why we should change it just >because we speak English. You don't go around changing someone's name >because you want to. It could all get messy, y'know. >The late actor Toshiro Mifune becomes `To-shai-ro Mai-foone'? >The anime film Akira is pronounced `Akai-ra'? >I don't think so but a lot of you folks seem to use that reasoning here. >This is all so silly, really.
Apparently you haven't been thinking about any of the points that have been made in the thread and are content merely to argue from authority (the "argument from authority" being one of the classical logical fallacies). It simply DOESN'T MATTER how Linus himself pronounces his name. The name already exists in English, and therefore every native English speaker will pronounce it the same as the Linus character in the Peanuts strip. This is a done deal, and if you don't understand why then you are simply clueless.
Unfamiliar foreign names are different. Because there is no existing way to say a name people are forced to approximate it as best as they can, according to their skill in imitating foreign pronunciations and whether they think using a correct foreign pronunciation will make them sound sophisticated or pretentious. This is a minor but awkward social problem with no obvious solution, but it isn't relevant here, since English speakers already know how to say "Linus". -- John Brock jbr...@panix.com
In article <87c1g2$47...@proxy.fe.internet.bosch.de>, Rolf Magnus wrote: >>I think it makes more sense for "Linux" to rhyme with the name >>"Linus" (as I believe is the case in Swedish).
Me too. We are, I fear, in the minority -- at least in the US.
>>Others prefer to rhyme it with "cynics". You can pick one or >>the other, but I certainly don't think it's a good idea to >>demand that millions of English speakers to try to approximate >>a non-English pronunciation!
>So what? Should every country pronounce it different?
Sure, why not? I've been in countries where not only do they pronounce things differently, they have completely different words for _everything_! Seriously: pronounce in whatever manner makes sense in language being spoken. Linus reportedly pronounces it differently when he's speaking English than he does when he's speaking Swedish.
The rules for pronunciation in English are vague and riddled with exceptions, so pretty much anything goes. I pronounce it so that it sounds almost exactly like "MangroveThroatWarbler". ;)
>Linus Torvalds invented Linux and has the trademark. So I would >say that he has the right to tell us how to pronounce it.
Of course he has the right to tell us how to pronounce it. In countries where free speach is guaranteed, _everybody_ has the right to tell us how to pronounce it. And, we all have the right to pronounce it however we want to. Last I heard, he said that he didn't really care how it was prounounced, so it's a bit of a moot point.
>You think it's better to pronounce it wrong because you are fom >an english speaking country?
Aw, c'mon, German has plenty of words borrowed from English and French that aren't pronounced anywhere close to the way they are in their originating countries. I don't claim that they're being pronounced incorrectly, and when speaking German (which I do rather poorly, I admit) I pronounce them using the German pronunciation. Perhaps the change in pronunciation of adopted words annoys Fracophiles more than Anglophiles (probably so).
Language is pretty much a majority-rules type of thing. If the overwhelming majority of English speakers pronounce it "MangroveThroatWarbler", then that is how it is pronounced in English.
-- Grant Edwards grante Yow! Yow! I'm out of at work...I could go into visi.com shock absorbers...or SCUBA GEAR!!
Grant Edwards wrote... >>So what? Should every country pronounce it different?
>Sure, why not?
Because it makes it more difficult for people from different countries to talk about it without a real benefit.
>I've been in countries where not only do they >pronounce things differently, they have completely different >words for _everything_!
What? No, that's impossible! ;-)
>The rules for pronunciation in English are vague and riddled >with exceptions, so pretty much anything goes. I pronounce it >so that it sounds almost exactly like "MangroveThroatWarbler".
You may be in big problems when talking so someone else about Linux... Hey, I pronounce Windows like "F*ckingCrapNotWorthAnything" and everyone understand what I mean :-)
>Of course he has the right to tell us how to pronounce it. In >countries where free speach is guaranteed, _everybody_ has the >right to tell us how to pronounce it.
Yes, and if no one understands you, it's your problem...
>And, we all have the >right to pronounce it however we want to. Last I heard, he >said that he didn't really care how it was prounounced, so it's >a bit of a moot point.
Yes, ok. Perhaps my posting sounded a bit extreme, but I can't see what's wrong about not having hundreds of different pronounciations for one and the same word.
>Aw, c'mon, German has plenty of words borrowed from English and >French that aren't pronounced anywhere close to the way they >are in their originating countries.
Ok, but Linux is a name, like Windows, Beos, Chrysler, Intel, and there are no big differences in Pronounciation of these names.
In article <sf0k9so14irc3mvd41gai0h55g91d88...@4ax.com>,
gamepla...@hotmail.com wrote: > I have yet to hear even the pronunciation snobs among us pronounce it > the way I heard Linus pronounce it in that sound clip. He pronounces > it Leenoos Torvaalds, and Lee-nooks. No one seems to notice that his > pronunciation is way different from "lynn-ucks", probably because your > English-speaking mouths can't pronounce the sounds easily. (I think I > only noticed because of the linguistics classes I have taken.) If > everyone starts pronouncing it that way, I'll do it too, but until > then, y'all can bite me. Lye-nucks all the way baby.
That's simply because the letter 'u' is pronounced 'oo' in quite a few languages such as German for instance and maybe Finnish too as it seems. Or was it Linus using the German way of saying it? ;-)
As for me and just about everyone around here, it's the French way. I don't think there's a written equivalent to show it in English, but in German it'd go like this: "Lienoeks" ('oe' to replace the umlauted 'o' that is.)
On 12 Feb 2000 10:30:28 -0500, John Brock <jbr...@panix.com> wrote:
>Apparently you haven't been thinking about any of the points that have >been made in the thread and are content merely to argue from authority >(the "argument from authority" being one of the classical logical >fallacies). It simply DOESN'T MATTER how Linus himself pronounces his >name. The name already exists in English, and therefore every native >English speaker will pronounce it the same as the Linus character in >the Peanuts strip. This is a done deal, and if you don't understand >why then you are simply clueless.
Now now...
Well, first of all, I've always pronounced it Linn-ucks from day one which had nothing to do with that little tidbit I posted. Secondly, I am a native English speaker (born and raised in Sunny Californ-eye-aye) and well aware of our pronunciation of Linus here. However, I've also never pronounced Torvald's name that way because I knew it wasn't pronounced that way and I also have no problem applying `short' vowels to ``foreign'' words (as opposed to the long vowels common in English). Comes with my interest in various foreign languages I suppose. Obviously a "that's just me" thing so the `every native English speaker' should be `most...'.
I understand exactly what you're saying but a) It hardly makes it a done deal. b) I'm far from clueless here.
Another post here mentioned how we'll probably wind up pronouncing Linux whatever way becomes standard with the media (short `i' so far). They seem to have a habit of influencing folks it seems. I'm even seeing the incorrect X-Windows (the offending `s') in computer magazines now. And of course we all pronounce gigabyte incorrectly apparently.[1] Go with the flow and all that. So far we don't have a Linux flow yet. :-) LINE-ucks for some, LINN-ucks for others. Do with it what you will.
[1] "Incidently, the word is pronounced JIG-uh-byte, not GIG-uh-byte, since it comes from the same root as giant and gigantic rather than gargantuan." DOS Power Tools, 1988
Note: FYI only. Don't anyone jump on me or anything about it. :-}
>Unfamiliar foreign names are different. Because there is no existing >way to say a name people are forced to approximate it as best as they >can, according to their skill in imitating foreign pronunciations and >whether they think using a correct foreign pronunciation will make them >sound sophisticated or pretentious. This is a minor but awkward social >problem with no obvious solution, but it isn't relevant here, since >English speakers already know how to say "Linus".
Definitely not the case here (for me that is) but I see what you mean.
On Thu, 17 Feb 2000 19:06:51 GMT, Marc D. Williams <mar...@flash.net> wrote:
> And of course we all pronounce gigabyte incorrectly apparently.[1] > [1] "Incidently, the word is pronounced JIG-uh-byte, not GIG-uh-byte, > since it comes from the same root as giant and gigantic rather > than gargantuan." > DOS Power Tools, 1988
> Note: FYI only. Don't anyone jump on me or anything about it. :-}
'cept it is amazingly wrong.
Gigantic \Gi*gan"tic\, a. [L. gigas, -antis, giant. See {Giant}.] 1. Of extraordinary size; like a giant.
'Gigas' is the Latin name of a giant, for sure. And that's how we got the word 'Gigantic'.... but that's got nothing to do with the -GREEK- root 'Giga'. (Kilo, mega, giga, etc, are all Greek roots.) 'G' in Greek would be good old gamma, which has a very definite 'g' sound, not a 'j' sound at all.
Whoever wrote the above book needs to do his homework.
(It would be equally wrong to claim that a podiatrist is someone who has something to do with sea creatures...)
-- Brian Moore | Of course vi is God's editor. Sysadmin, C/Perl Hacker | If He used Emacs, He'd still be waiting Usenet Vandal | for it to load on the seventh day. Netscum, Bane of Elves.
> On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:04:32 +0100, > Oskar \"Beo\" Berggren <d99...@NOSPAM.dtek.chalmers.se> wrote:
> > No, but then again, it's not spellt the same way either. And as someone > > else > > pointed out I think it comes more from Linus than from Minix.
> I agree on that. It's not 'linix' after all. :)
> > > Line-ucks on the other hand, simply comes from an assumption based on taking > > > a glance at the word itself. It looks like it ought to be pronounced > > > line-ucks based on how English speaking people learned to associate letters > > > with sound. I guarantee the first time any English speaking person looks at > > > that word Linux, it *will* be pronounced line-ucks.
> > As a Swede I don't fully understand this. If someone more familiar [than > > me] > > with the finer grains of why Linux become Line-ucks while 'linger', > > 'link', > > 'linseed', 'lintel' and 'list' (just some words I found on the same page > > in my dictionary) does not I would be grateful.
> Like 'linux' (the "right" way, anyway :)): virus, sinus, minus > Or with a different vowel (but likewise long): redux, Jesus, lemur > or even Peter or penal.
> The first vowel is made long because of the second vowel. But that all > changes when there are two consonants... that sucks the power away from > the vowel, 'cirrus', for example.
> Your examples all have two consonants after the first i.
> Of course, there are counter examples for everything since English > breaks its own rules all the time.
So if there are other exceptions then why can't Linux be an exception to this rule as well?
> -- > Brian Moore | Of course vi is God's editor. > Sysadmin, C/Perl Hacker | If He used Emacs, He'd still be waiting > Usenet Vandal | for it to load on the seventh day. > Netscum, Bane of Elves.
On 12 Feb 2000 10:30:28 -0500, John Brock <jbr...@panix.com> wrote:
>Apparently you haven't been thinking about any of the points that have >been made in the thread and are content merely to argue from authority >(the "argument from authority" being one of the classical logical >fallacies). It simply DOESN'T MATTER how Linus himself pronounces his >name. The name already exists in English, and therefore every native >English speaker will pronounce it the same as the Linus character in >the Peanuts strip. This is a done deal, and if you don't understand >why then you are simply clueless.
Now now...
Well, first of all, I've always pronounced it Linn-ucks from day one which had nothing to do with that little tidbit I posted. Secondly, I am a native English speaker (born and raised in Sunny Californ-eye-aye) and well aware of our pronunciation of Linus here. However, I've also never pronounced Torvald's name that way because I knew it wasn't pronounced that way and I also have no problem applying `short' vowels to ``foreign'' words (as opposed to the long vowels common in English). Comes with my interest in various foreign languages I suppose. Obviously a "that's just me" thing so the `every native English speaker' should be `most...'.
I understand exactly what you're saying but a) It hardly makes it a done deal. b) I'm far from clueless here.
Another post here mentioned how we'll probably wind up pronouncing Linux whatever way becomes standard with the media (short `i' so far). They seem to have a habit of influencing folks it seems. I'm even seeing the incorrect X-Windows (the offending `s') in computer magazines now. And of course we all pronounce gigabyte incorrectly apparently.[1] Go with the flow and all that. So far we don't have a Linux flow yet. :-) LINE-ucks for some, LINN-ucks for others. Do with it what you will.
[1] "Incidently, the word is pronounced JIG-uh-byte, not GIG-uh-byte, since it comes from the same root as giant and gigantic rather than gargantuan." DOS Power Tools, 1988
Note: FYI only. Don't anyone jump on me or anything about it. :-}
>Unfamiliar foreign names are different. Because there is no existing >way to say a name people are forced to approximate it as best as they >can, according to their skill in imitating foreign pronunciations and >whether they think using a correct foreign pronunciation will make them >sound sophisticated or pretentious. This is a minor but awkward social >problem with no obvious solution, but it isn't relevant here, since >English speakers already know how to say "Linus".
Definitely not the case here (for me that is) but I see what you mean.
> On Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:04:32 +0100, > Oskar \"Beo\" Berggren <d99...@NOSPAM.dtek.chalmers.se> wrote:
> > No, but then again, it's not spellt the same way either. And as someone > > else > > pointed out I think it comes more from Linus than from Minix.
> I agree on that. It's not 'linix' after all. :)
> > > Line-ucks on the other hand, simply comes from an assumption based on taking > > > a glance at the word itself. It looks like it ought to be pronounced > > > line-ucks based on how English speaking people learned to associate letters > > > with sound. I guarantee the first time any English speaking person looks at > > > that word Linux, it *will* be pronounced line-ucks.
> > As a Swede I don't fully understand this. If someone more familiar [than > > me] > > with the finer grains of why Linux become Line-ucks while 'linger', > > 'link', > > 'linseed', 'lintel' and 'list' (just some words I found on the same page > > in my dictionary) does not I would be grateful.
> Like 'linux' (the "right" way, anyway :)): virus, sinus, minus > Or with a different vowel (but likewise long): redux, Jesus, lemur > or even Peter or penal.
> The first vowel is made long because of the second vowel. But that all > changes when there are two consonants... that sucks the power away from > the vowel, 'cirrus', for example.
> Your examples all have two consonants after the first i.
> Of course, there are counter examples for everything since English > breaks its own rules all the time.
So if there are other exceptions then why can't Linux be an exception to this rule as well?
> -- > Brian Moore | Of course vi is God's editor. > Sysadmin, C/Perl Hacker | If He used Emacs, He'd still be waiting > Usenet Vandal | for it to load on the seventh day. > Netscum, Bane of Elves.
In article <sf0k9so14irc3mvd41gai0h55g91d88...@4ax.com>,
gamepla...@hotmail.com wrote: > I have yet to hear even the pronunciation snobs among us pronounce it > the way I heard Linus pronounce it in that sound clip. He pronounces > it Leenoos Torvaalds, and Lee-nooks. No one seems to notice that his > pronunciation is way different from "lynn-ucks", probably because your > English-speaking mouths can't pronounce the sounds easily. (I think I > only noticed because of the linguistics classes I have taken.) If > everyone starts pronouncing it that way, I'll do it too, but until > then, y'all can bite me. Lye-nucks all the way baby.
That's simply because the letter 'u' is pronounced 'oo' in quite a few languages such as German for instance and maybe Finnish too as it seems. Or was it Linus using the German way of saying it? ;-)
As for me and just about everyone around here, it's the French way. I don't think there's a written equivalent to show it in English, but in German it'd go like this: "Lienoeks" ('oe' to replace the umlauted 'o' that is.)
On 12 Feb 2000 10:30:28 -0500, John Brock <jbr...@panix.com> wrote:
>Apparently you haven't been thinking about any of the points that have >been made in the thread and are content merely to argue from authority >(the "argument from authority" being one of the classical logical >fallacies). It simply DOESN'T MATTER how Linus himself pronounces his >name. The name already exists in English, and therefore every native >English speaker will pronounce it the same as the Linus character in >the Peanuts strip. This is a done deal, and if you don't understand >why then you are simply clueless.
Now now...
Well, first of all, I've always pronounced it Linn-ucks from day one which had nothing to do with that little tidbit I posted. Secondly, I am a native English speaker (born and raised in Sunny Californ-eye-aye) and well aware of our pronunciation of Linus here. However, I've also never pronounced Torvald's name that way because I knew it wasn't pronounced that way and I also have no problem applying `short' vowels to ``foreign'' words (as opposed to the long vowels common in English). Comes with my interest in various foreign languages I suppose. Obviously a "that's just me" thing so the `every native English speaker' should be `most...'.
I understand exactly what you're saying but a) It hardly makes it a done deal. b) I'm far from clueless here.
Another post here mentioned how we'll probably wind up pronouncing Linux whatever way becomes standard with the media (short `i' so far). They seem to have a habit of influencing folks it seems. I'm even seeing the incorrect X-Windows (the offending `s') in computer magazines now. And of course we all pronounce gigabyte incorrectly apparently.[1] Go with the flow and all that. So far we don't have a Linux flow yet. :-) LINE-ucks for some, LINN-ucks for others. Do with it what you will.
[1] "Incidently, the word is pronounced JIG-uh-byte, not GIG-uh-byte, since it comes from the same root as giant and gigantic rather than gargantuan." DOS Power Tools, 1988
Note: FYI only. Don't anyone jump on me or anything about it. :-}
>Unfamiliar foreign names are different. Because there is no existing >way to say a name people are forced to approximate it as best as they >can, according to their skill in imitating foreign pronunciations and >whether they think using a correct foreign pronunciation will make them >sound sophisticated or pretentious. This is a minor but awkward social >problem with no obvious solution, but it isn't relevant here, since >English speakers already know how to say "Linus".
Definitely not the case here (for me that is) but I see what you mean.
brian moore <b...@news.cmc.net> wrote: > On Thu, 17 Feb 2000 19:06:51 GMT, > Marc D. Williams <mar...@flash.net> wrote: >> And of course we all pronounce gigabyte incorrectly apparently.[1] >> [1] "Incidently, the word is pronounced JIG-uh-byte, not GIG-uh-byte, >> since it comes from the same root as giant and gigantic rather >> than gargantuan." >> DOS Power Tools, 1988
>> Note: FYI only. Don't anyone jump on me or anything about it. :-} > 'cept it is amazingly wrong. > Gigantic \Gi*gan"tic\, a. [L. gigas, -antis, giant. See > {Giant}.] > 1. Of extraordinary size; like a giant.
> 'Gigas' is the Latin name of a giant, for sure. And that's how we got > the word 'Gigantic'.... but that's got nothing to do with the -GREEK- > root 'Giga'.
Yes it does. Check the etymology in your dictionary. The Romans borrowed the word from the Greeks. The prefix has the same origin; you can check that too, and confirm that you are right when you say that
> (Kilo, mega, giga, etc, are all Greek roots.) > 'G' in Greek would be good old gamma, which has a very definite 'g' > sound, not a 'j' sound at all.
True but irrelevant to English pronunciation. I suppose you pronounce "cyberspace" with a 'k' sound, not an 's' sound. (From Greek "kubern-", from which, by way of Latin (again) we also get "govern".) I'm not sure who bears the blame for dropping the 'n' in "cyber-". I suspect Stanislaw Lem, but it may be Control Data Corp. I pronounce "giga-" as in Marc's footnote. The hard 'g' pronunciation is only lately getting into dictionaries. Many only give pronunciations with a soft 'g', and some give preference to one[1] with 'i' pronounced as in the English (not Swedish) pronunciation of "Linus".[2]
> Whoever wrote the above book needs to do his homework.
He's not the only one.
[1] I once read it was the officially-blessed pronunciation. [2] Gotta get this thread back on topic. Guess how I pronounce "Linux". :-)
-- John Wingate If there is a God he must have wing...@worldpath.net an odd sense of humour. --- Chaim Bermant
brian moore <b...@news.cmc.net> wrote: > On Fri, 18 Feb 2000 05:43:09 GMT, > John Wingate <wing...@worldpath.net> wrote: >> brian moore <b...@news.cmc.net> wrote: >> > 'Gigas' is the Latin name of a giant, for sure. And that's how we got >> > the word 'Gigantic'.... but that's got nothing to do with the -GREEK- >> > root 'Giga'.
>> Yes it does. Check the etymology in your dictionary. The Romans >> borrowed the word from the Greeks. The prefix has the same origin; >> you can check that too, and confirm that you are right when you say that >> > (Kilo, mega, giga, etc, are all Greek roots.) > The word we use came directly from the Greek -- it did not go via Latin.
I wasn't saying that the metric prefix "giga" came by way of Latin, but that you were correct in saying it came directly from Greek.
> (Nor did Kilo, Milli, Mega or the other prefixes.)
^^^^^
Oops. That one's from Latin. "Deca", "hecto", and "kilo" are from Greek; "deci", "centi", and "milli" are from Latin. This neat scheme was spoiled when "micro"--from Greek--was introduced.
>> > 'G' in Greek would be good old gamma, which has a very definite 'g' >> > sound, not a 'j' sound at all.
>> True but irrelevant to English pronunciation. I suppose you pronounce >> "cyberspace" with a 'k' sound, not an 's' sound. (From Greek >> "kubern-", from which, by way of Latin (again) we also get "govern".) > You suspect wrong. 'cyber' was coined by Norbert Wiener in 1948, and > was probably not from the Greek at all, but from the French > 'cybernetique', or the art of governing.
Use the source. From the Introduction to _Cybernetics_ by Norbert Wiener (published in 1948, as you say):
We have decided to call the entire field of control and communication theory, whether in the machine or in the animal, by the name _Cybernetics_, which we form from the Greek _kybernetes_ [my transliteration from Wiener's Greek] or _steersman_.
(Whether you transliterate upsilon as "u" or "y" here is a matter of choice.)
>> [1] I once read it was the officially-blessed pronunciation. > I once read that Bill Clinton never told a lie. That doesn't make it > true. ("Officially blessed?" Jezzus fucking Christ, this ain't French > with the language police... just -who- exactly "officially blesses" > words? If you believe such a term could even be applied to English, > you're showing a great misunderstanding of how English has evolved, and > why it has become so popular.)
Do we need to have smileys on everything? That was tongue-in-cheek, aimed at the pomposity of standards-promulgators. I don't care for language police any more than you do. (Anyway, it's not the pronunciation I use.)
>> [2] Gotta get this thread back on topic. Guess how I pronounce "Linux". :-) > Like Linus, I don't care how you pronounce it.
On this we can agree. Pronounce it (and "giga") however you want to.
-- John Wingate If there is a God he must have wing...@worldpath.net an odd sense of humour. --- Chaim Bermant
In article <88gb5u$f3...@proxy.fe.internet.bosch.de>, Rolf Magnus wrote: >Ok, but Linux is a name, like Windows, Beos, Chrysler, Intel, and there are >no big differences in Pronounciation of these names.
I'm getting confused -- are we talking about people from different countries using different pronunciation when speaking English, or when speaking their native languages?
If the former, the ideal case would be that when speaking language A, everybody pronounces word X the the same way. For many words in English there are multiple accepted pronunciations. For many English words of foreign origin, the accepted English pronunciation isn't very close to the original.
If we're talking about how people pronounce things in their native languages, even the pronunciation of brand names differ. English and German speakers differ on the pronunciation of Addidas, BMW, Volkswagen, etc. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
-- Grant Edwards grante Yow! I guess we can live at on his POT FARM in HADES!! visi.com
ste...@crosswinds.not wrote: > On Thu, 17 Feb 2000 19:06:51 GMT, Marc D. Williams <mar...@flash.net> wrote:
> >[1] "Incidently, the word is pronounced JIG-uh-byte, not GIG-uh-byte, > > since it comes from the same root as giant and gigantic rather > > than gargantuan." > > DOS Power Tools, 1988
> Giga is just a number from old-Greek language, it has nothing to do with > giant and gigantic. > Kilo, mega, giga...
Well, the only problem here is that both the words gigantic and giant also have their roots in the Greek word giga. So, what now?
> >>So what? Should every country pronounce it different?
> >Sure, why not?
> Because it makes it more difficult for people from different countries to > talk about it without a real benefit.
I doubt there will be any difficulty. Americans say "Super Nintendo" while Japanese say "Famicom"...no problems of understanding at all, or, if there are, it's a matter of finding out they are the same thing. The situation for the word "Linux" is even less severe than this.
> >Of course he has the right to tell us how to pronounce it. In > >countries where free speach is guaranteed, _everybody_ has the > >right to tell us how to pronounce it.
This is not really a matter of free speech...But the point is, it's no sin if you pronounce it a bit differently, and as long as people know what you're saying, no one cares.
> >And, we all have the > >right to pronounce it however we want to. Last I heard, he > >said that he didn't really care how it was prounounced, so it's > >a bit of a moot point.
I suppose this really concludes the matter.
> Yes, ok. Perhaps my posting sounded a bit extreme, but I can't see what's > wrong about not having hundreds of different pronounciations for one and the > same word.
A bit of an exaggeration, in this case. I pronounce it "Linnucks", Mr. Torvalds (in the famous audio clip) says "Lee-noox" (rhyming with his name, "Leenoos"...the "oo" is a short vowel like the one in "oops!"), and I've heard a friend of mine say "Lie-nucks" once and then never use it again because we found said audio clip. So, there are two different pronunciations, they are the American-English and Swedish variants of the same word. When Linus says "Lee-noox" and I say "Linnucks," we are saying the exact same word with respective accents.
> >Aw, c'mon, German has plenty of words borrowed from English and > >French that aren't pronounced anywhere close to the way they > >are in their originating countries.
> Ok, but Linux is a name, like Windows, Beos, Chrysler, Intel, and there are > no big differences in Pronounciation of these names.
Linux is a name, but it's not a real word. "Windows" is an english word...in my experience, people don't disagree about how to pronounce the name of the glass thing in the wall that lets light through...thus, there is one pronunciation of the name of the operating system. "Intel" is associated with the word "intelligence," I imagine. Again, based on an english word. Chrysler is a person's name, and it's one that is easily pronounced in English. "Linux" is also based on a name, but the name on which it is based is pronounced differently in Swedish than in English. Because the actual man is Swedish, we run into problems pronouncing the word "Linux." But who cares? People should pronounce it however is most natural for their language. End of story.
Many people pronounce MS Windows as WindBlows or WinDozes. These particular pronuciations are not the result of race, creed, religion, monetary status or place of birth.
I know of next door neighbours who have numerous conflicting verbal descriptions for MS Windows, sometimes they don't even begin to resemble the MS approved spelling; "Piece Of Sh_t" comes to mind.
Roni Choudhury wrote in message <38B88592.A3D05...@midway.uchicago.edu>...
>Rolf Magnus wrote:
>> Grant Edwards wrote...
>> >>So what? Should every country pronounce it different?
>> >Sure, why not?
>> Because it makes it more difficult for people from different countries to >> talk about it without a real benefit.
>I doubt there will be any difficulty. Americans say "Super Nintendo" >while Japanese say "Famicom"...no problems of understanding at all, or, >if there are, it's a matter of finding out they are the same thing. The >situation for the word "Linux" is even less severe than this.
>> >Of course he has the right to tell us how to pronounce it. In >> >countries where free speach is guaranteed, _everybody_ has the >> >right to tell us how to pronounce it.
>This is not really a matter of free speech...But the point is, it's no >sin if you pronounce it a bit differently, and as long as people know >what you're saying, no one cares.
>> >And, we all have the >> >right to pronounce it however we want to. Last I heard, he >> >said that he didn't really care how it was prounounced, so it's >> >a bit of a moot point.
>I suppose this really concludes the matter.
>> Yes, ok. Perhaps my posting sounded a bit extreme, but I can't see what's >> wrong about not having hundreds of different pronounciations for one and the >> same word.
>A bit of an exaggeration, in this case. I pronounce it "Linnucks", Mr. >Torvalds (in the famous audio clip) says "Lee-noox" (rhyming with his >name, "Leenoos"...the "oo" is a short vowel like the one in "oops!"), >and I've heard a friend of mine say "Lie-nucks" once and then never use >it again because we found said audio clip. So, there are two different >pronunciations, they are the American-English and Swedish variants of >the same word. When Linus says "Lee-noox" and I say "Linnucks," we are >saying the exact same word with respective accents.
>> >Aw, c'mon, German has plenty of words borrowed from English and >> >French that aren't pronounced anywhere close to the way they >> >are in their originating countries.
>> Ok, but Linux is a name, like Windows, Beos, Chrysler, Intel, and there are >> no big differences in Pronounciation of these names.
>Linux is a name, but it's not a real word. "Windows" is an english >word...in my experience, people don't disagree about how to pronounce >the name of the glass thing in the wall that lets light through...thus, >there is one pronunciation of the name of the operating system. "Intel" >is associated with the word "intelligence," I imagine. Again, based on >an english word. Chrysler is a person's name, and it's one that is >easily pronounced in English. "Linux" is also based on a name, but the >name on which it is based is pronounced differently in Swedish than in >English. Because the actual man is Swedish, we run into problems >pronouncing the word "Linux." But who cares? People should pronounce >it however is most natural for their language. End of story.
