Is Creative Modem Blaster V.92 USB (DE5671 Model) dial-up modem supported in Linux?

[Ant]

Hello.

I cannot seem to get KNOPPIX v7.0.4 and Ubuntu v12.04.1 i386 live CDs to
see an old Creative Modem Blaster V.92 USB (DE5671 Model) dial-up modem.
It worked fine in Windows (XP SP3 to 64-bit 7) on two machines. When I
plugged it in during a KNOPPIX session, dmesg detects it. Ubuntu
v12.04.1 i386 live CD detects something, but can't identify it. The
Linux tests were on an old Dell Dimension 8250 (512 MB of RAM) machine.

KNOPPIX's dmesg showed:
...
[ 113.693346] usb 4-2: new full-speed USB device number 2 usinguhci_hcd
[ 118.856286] usb 4-2: New USB device found, idVendor=148d, idProduct=1671
[ 118.856293] usb 4-2: New USB device strings: Mfr=1, Product=2, SerialNumber=6
[ 118.856297] usb 4-2: Product: Creative Modem Blaster V.92 USB
[ 118.856300] usb 4-2: Manufacturer: Creative Pte Ltd.
[ 118.856303] usb 4-2: SerialNumber: 00000000

Its lsusb command showed:
Bus 004 Device 002: ID 148d:1671
Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
Bus 003 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
Bus 004 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
Bus 005 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
Bus 006 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0001 Linux Foundation 1.1 root hub
Weird that lsusb doesn't show the modem?

Ubuntu showed http://pastie.org/4755128 (too long in this newsgroup
post).

For now, I just want to see if KNOPPIX can communicate to this modem
with its AT commands, but it doesn't seem to find the modem at all even
though KNOPPIX's dmesg show detections.
http://knoppix.net/forum/threads/30210-Dial-up-Modem-and-KNOPPIX-v7.0.4-Live-CD-
's reply told me to use WvDial for the dial-up modem stuff:

root@Microknoppix:/home/knoppix# wvdial
--> WvDial: Internet dialer version 1.61
--> Cannot open /dev/modem: No such file or directory
--> Cannot open /dev/modem: No such file or directory
--> Cannot open /dev/modem: No such file or directory

root@Microknoppix:/home/knoppix# wvdialconf
Editing `/etc/wvdial.conf'.

Scanning your serial ports for a modem.

ttyS0<*1>: ATQ0 V1 E1 -- failed with 2400 baud, next try: 9600 baud
ttyS0<*1>: ATQ0 V1 E1 -- failed with 9600 baud, next try: 115200 baud
ttyS0<*1>: ATQ0 V1 E1 -- and failed too at 115200, giving up.
Modem Port Scan<*1>: S1 S2 S3
ttyS4<Info>: No such device or address
Modem Port Scan<*1>: S4


Sorry, no modem was detected! Is it in use by another program?
Did you configure it properly with setserial?

Please read the FAQ at http://alumnit.ca/wiki/?WvDial


# cat /etc/wvdial.conf
[Dialer Defaults]
Phone =
Username =
Password =
New PPPD = yes


I don't need to dial out yet. Ubuntu's results were worse as shown in
http://pastie.org/4755128 ... :(

Thank you in advance. :)
--
Quote of the Week: "Every ruler sleeps on an anthill." --Afghani
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://antfarm.home.dhs.org (Personal Web Site)
/ /\ /\ \ Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
| |o o| |
\ _ / Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail. If crediting,
( ) then please kindly use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.

[Bobbie Sellers]

On 09/19/2012 12:03 PM, Ant wrote:
> Hello.
>
> I cannot seem to get KNOPPIX v7.0.4 and Ubuntu v12.04.1 i386 live CDs to
> see an old Creative Modem Blaster V.92 USB (DE5671 Model) dial-up modem.
> It worked fine in Windows (XP SP3 to 64-bit 7) on two machines. When I
> plugged it in during a KNOPPIX session, dmesg detects it. Ubuntu
> v12.04.1 i386 live CD detects something, but can't identify it. The
> Linux tests were on an old Dell Dimension 8250 (512 MB of RAM) machine.

Sounds like a WinModem which is only usable on Linux with a Windows
driver in special wrapper file. It depends for its operation ordinarily
in Windows with offloading of processing to the CPU. i looked at the
Linux Hardware guide and at listings for support where I found only
Windows drivers.

Your cross-posting seems a bit extreme.

bliss

[Ant]

> Sounds like a WinModem which is only usable on Linux with a Windows
> driver in special wrapper file. It depends for its operation ordinarily
> in Windows with offloading of processing to the CPU. i looked at the
> Linux Hardware guide and at listings for support where I found only
> Windows drivers.

Ah, that's probably why. I couldn't get it to work in Mac OS X 10.7.4 as
well. I guess I can't use it except in Windows then. Thanks. :(

[Whiskers]

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.networking.]

On 2012-09-19, Ant <ANT...@zimage.com> wrote:
> Hello.
>
> I cannot seem to get KNOPPIX v7.0.4 and Ubuntu v12.04.1 i386 live CDs to
> see an old Creative Modem Blaster V.92 USB (DE5671 Model) dial-up modem.
> It worked fine in Windows (XP SP3 to 64-bit 7) on two machines. When I
> plugged it in during a KNOPPIX session, dmesg detects it. Ubuntu
> v12.04.1 i386 live CD detects something, but can't identify it. The
> Linux tests were on an old Dell Dimension 8250 (512 MB of RAM) machine.

> Thank you in advance. :)

[...]

I think that model has a 'Conexant' chipset, in which case it may be
possible to get it working with Linux
<http://www.linuxant.com/drivers/hsf/index.php>

But if you're serious about using a dialup modem, whatever operating system
is involved, you're better off using a real 'hardware' modem. These are
(or were!) made as PCI cards for installing on a motherboard, or as PC Card
(PCMCIA) removable cards, or as external boxes with Serial or USB
connectors.

I have had success using a Serial-to-USB adaptor to get a Zoom 3049L Serial
modem working with Mandrake 9 (and up to Mandriva 2008) - no messing
around, just connect it up, put the basic configuration into KPPP or some
other modem dialer package, and you're on line. Lots of flashing lights to
watch while your data moves, and lots of old-fashioned noises while it's
establishing a connection.

A Sitecom PC Card fax/modem has also worked well for me 'on the road'. It
is inclined to get alarmingly hot, though.

I haven't tried either of them with current distros, but I would expect
them to work (unless the hardware breaks).

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

[Michael Black]

On Wed, 19 Sep 2012, Ant wrote:

>> Sounds like a WinModem which is only usable on Linux with a Windows
>> driver in special wrapper file. It depends for its operation ordinarily
>> in Windows with offloading of processing to the CPU. i looked at the
>> Linux Hardware guide and at listings for support where I found only
>> Windows drivers.
>
> Ah, that's probably why. I couldn't get it to work in Mac OS X 10.7.4 as
> well. I guess I can't use it except in Windows then. Thanks. :(

On the other hand, because they were so cheap, they landed in a lot of
computers. It's pretty common when I find a computer on the sidewalk
waiting for the garbage truck for it to have such a modem. It's rare to
see hardware modems, especially faster speed ones.

Given that, some of the software modems seemed easier to use with Linux,
or rather, someone took the time to deal with it. I'm sure there's a list
of software modems that are easy to use with Linux, find that list and
then just look for a modem that fits. I suspect it can't take too many
software modems to find one compatible.

The problem is that the software modems did start taking up the market
towards the end of dial-up modems. People got cheap, the computers got
fast enough, so the hardware modems were likely specifically bought. I
think the fastest bus hardware modem I saw was 28.8K, and I had to give
that one up when I moved to a computer that didn't have an ISA bus. I
don't think I've seen any PCI hardware modems (I'm not saying they dont'
exist, just pointing out that they became uncommon). External modems,
they never dropped in price because there was nothing new to come along.
So it took some time before I could move from my external 33.6K modem to
56K, finally finding one at a garage sale at a price I was willing to pay,
then oddly the next week finding another one at another sale. I suspect
not only that fewer external (and hardware) modems were sold at 56K, but
since nothing came along to replace them for dial-up, people must have
kept them as backup. On the other hand, I bought for ten dollars a 56K
external modem a couple of years ago, I wanted a spare, and then found one
in a pile of garbage on moving day.

Michael

[Moe Trin]

On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 in the Usenet newsgroup comp.os.linux.hardware and others,
in article <8vWdnRkzp6h5i8fN...@earthlink.com>, Ant wrote:

(You caught me on travel - I did see your post to comp.dcom.modems on
Monday, but haven't had time to reply there. Hope this post makes it.)

>I cannot seem to get KNOPPIX v7.0.4 and Ubuntu v12.04.1 i386 live CDs
>to see an old Creative Modem Blaster V.92 USB (DE5671 Model) dial-up
>modem.

Your original post in comp.dcom.modems didn't mention the model number,
but if you hit your favorite search engine with the search terms of
'DE5671' and 'Linux', you'll get several thousand hits. Briefly, the
DE5671 is a Conexant HSF controllerless or soft modem. The semi-good
news is that there was both a free and 'for-pay' driver from
linuxant.com. The free version is limited to 14400 BPS, while the
for-pay supposedly has the full v.92 capability.

>dmesg showed:

>[ 118.856286] usb 4-2: New USB device found, idVendor=148d, id
> Product=1671
>[ 118.856293] usb 4-2: New USB device strings: Mfr=1, Product=2,
>SerialNumber=6
>[ 118.856297] usb 4-2: Product: Creative Modem Blaster V.92 USB
>[ 118.856300] usb 4-2: Manufacturer: Creative Pte Ltd.
>[ 118.856303] usb 4-2: SerialNumber: 00000000

The device is alive, and can be talked to. Good. The bad news is
that Vendor and Product ID don't appear in the 'usb-list'
(http://www.linux-usb.org/usb.ids).

>Its lsusb command showed:
>Bus 004 Device 002: ID 148d:1671

Seen, but not decoded because it's not in the usb-id listing above.

>[web-forum] reply told me to use WvDial for the dial-up modem stuff:

Crock of powdered-plastic-puppy-p00p and not worth the disk-space it
occupies. Has it been updated since version 1.60 from 2007? Like
most so-called ``helper'' programs, it doesn't know about USB devices.
Notice it's looking at /dev/modem (a link that probably doesn't exist
on a LiveCD, and has to be created on any distro, and if using udev,
has to be created at each boot). A "real" hardware USB modem would
be /dev/ttyACM0, while the Linmodem driver would create some device.
perhaps a /dev/ttyS4 or similar.

John Hasler's pppconfig should set up pppd and create an appropriate
chat script. I just copy the same file I've been using since 1995
and use that. The _only_ change needed was the device name.

As regards the linuxant driver, most of the Linmodem drivers were
created for the 2.2.x, 2.4.x and 2.6.x kernels. A poster in the
alt.os.linux.mandriva newsgroup was able to compile an unnamed PCI
"for-pay" linmodem driver in a 3.x.x kernel in CentOS (clone of
Red Hat Enterprise Linux) and apparently it worked with no problem.
He had some problems with _other_ distributions (I think one was
Ubuntu), but that may have been a installed packages issue. He wound
up buying a USB modem from NewEgg at a relatively low price, that
needed no driver. The USR 5637 does come with files for the Mac as
well as Linux and some version of windoze, but the Linux stuff was
just a text file - no driver needed, I'm not at home, so I don't
know what the Mac stuff was.

Old guy

[Aragorn]

On Thursday 20 September 2012 04:17, Michael Black conveyed the
following to comp.os.linux.hardware...

> On Wed, 19 Sep 2012, Ant wrote:
>
>>> Sounds like a WinModem which is only usable on Linux with a Windows
>>> driver in special wrapper file. It depends for its operation
>>> ordinarily in Windows with offloading of processing to the CPU. i
>>> looked at the Linux Hardware guide and at listings for support where
>>> I found only Windows drivers.
>>
>> Ah, that's probably why. I couldn't get it to work in Mac OS X 10.7.4
>> as well. I guess I can't use it except in Windows then. Thanks. :(
>
> On the other hand, because they were so cheap, they landed in a lot of
> computers. It's pretty common when I find a computer on the sidewalk
> waiting for the garbage truck for it to have such a modem. It's rare
> to see hardware modems, especially faster speed ones.
>
> Given that, some of the software modems seemed easier to use with
> Linux, or rather, someone took the time to deal with it. I'm sure
> there's a list of software modems that are easy to use with Linux,
> find that list and then just look for a modem that fits. I suspect it
> can't take too many software modems to find one compatible.

Check here:

http://www.linmodems.org

--
= Aragorn =
(registered GNU/Linux user #223157)

[Ant]

> >> Sounds like a WinModem which is only usable on Linux with a Windows
> >> driver in special wrapper file. It depends for its operation ordinarily
> >> in Windows with offloading of processing to the CPU. i looked at the
> >> Linux Hardware guide and at listings for support where I found only
> >> Windows drivers.
> >
> > Ah, that's probably why. I couldn't get it to work in Mac OS X 10.7.4 as
> > well. I guess I can't use it except in Windows then. Thanks. :(

> On the other hand, because they were so cheap, they landed in a lot of
> computers. It's pretty common when I find a computer on the sidewalk
> waiting for the garbage truck for it to have such a modem. It's rare to
> see hardware modems, especially faster speed ones.

Yeah, someone didn't want it and it wasn't even opened and still
shrinkwrapped (never used). So I took it for kicks to see. Now, I know
why he/she didn't want it beside being dial-up (still useful to me when
my cable Internet goes down). Haha.

> Given that, some of the software modems seemed easier to use with Linux,
> or rather, someone took the time to deal with it. I'm sure there's a list
> of software modems that are easy to use with Linux, find that list and
> then just look for a modem that fits. I suspect it can't take too many
> software modems to find one compatible.

> The problem is that the software modems did start taking up the market
> towards the end of dial-up modems. People got cheap, the computers got
> fast enough, so the hardware modems were likely specifically bought. I
> think the fastest bus hardware modem I saw was 28.8K, and I had to give
> that one up when I moved to a computer that didn't have an ISA bus. I
> don't think I've seen any PCI hardware modems (I'm not saying they dont'
> exist, just pointing out that they became uncommon). External modems,
> they never dropped in price because there was nothing new to come along.
> So it took some time before I could move from my external 33.6K modem to
> 56K, finally finding one at a garage sale at a price I was willing to pay,
> then oddly the next week finding another one at another sale. I suspect
> not only that fewer external (and hardware) modems were sold at 56K, but
> since nothing came along to replace them for dial-up, people must have
> kept them as backup. On the other hand, I bought for ten dollars a 56K
> external modem a couple of years ago, I wanted a spare, and then found one
> in a pile of garbage on moving day.

I still have my old external serial USR Sportster 33.6k (only connects
at 28800-31200 speeds on crappy old copper landlines) dial-up modem at
home. It still works as of 1.75 years ago when I tested it. :) I was
hoping to find a cheap/free USB one since serial/COM types are pretty
much gone these days.

[T. Dwyer]

The USROBOTIC'S is a Hardware USB modem which is seen in Linux as TTY/ACMO.
T.D.

[J G Miller]

On Thursday, September 20th, 2012, at 15:23:50h -0500, Ant explained:

> I still have my old external serial USR Sportster 33.6k (only connects
> at 28800-31200 speeds on crappy old copper landlines) dial-up modem at
> home. It still works as of 1.75 years ago when I tested it. :) I was
> hoping to find a cheap/free USB one since serial/COM types are pretty
> much gone these days.

Why not use a USB to serial converter cable?

[Ant]

> >I cannot seem to get KNOPPIX v7.0.4 and Ubuntu v12.04.1 i386 live CDs
> >to see an old Creative Modem Blaster V.92 USB (DE5671 Model) dial-up
> >modem.

> Your original post in comp.dcom.modems didn't mention the model number,
> but if you hit your favorite search engine with the search terms of
> 'DE5671' and 'Linux', you'll get several thousand hits. Briefly, the
> DE5671 is a Conexant HSF controllerless or soft modem. The semi-good
> news is that there was both a free and 'for-pay' driver from
> linuxant.com. The free version is limited to 14400 BPS, while the
> for-pay supposedly has the full v.92 capability.

What? We have to pay for full speeds? I thought these drivers were
supposed to be open sourced and free as beer in Linux. :P Bah to 14.4k
speed. That's useless and too slow. My old home's phone lines can go up
to 31200 (rarely), but mostly at 26400 and 28800. ;)

Hmm, KNOPPIX v7.0.4 CD doesn't seem to have pppconfig included. It does
have pppd and ppp. Locate and
http://ftp.uni-kl.de/pub/linux/knoppix/dpkg-l-cd-704.txt doesn't show
pppconfig. http://ftp.uni-kl.de/pub/linux/knoppix/DVD/packages-dvd.txt
did say it has pppconfig, so I did an apt-get update and installed it. I
ran pppconfig and tried to configure ppp, but it couldn't find my modem
and kept showing serial ports (no modems there!) which is not right.
This driver is a bit complex. :(

> As regards the linuxant driver, most of the Linmodem drivers were
> created for the 2.2.x, 2.4.x and 2.6.x kernels. A poster in the
> alt.os.linux.mandriva newsgroup was able to compile an unnamed PCI
> "for-pay" linmodem driver in a 3.x.x kernel in CentOS (clone of
> Red Hat Enterprise Linux) and apparently it worked with no problem.
> He had some problems with _other_ distributions (I think one was
> Ubuntu), but that may have been a installed packages issue. He wound
> up buying a USB modem from NewEgg at a relatively low price, that
> needed no driver. The USR 5637 does come with files for the Mac as
> well as Linux and some version of windoze, but the Linux stuff was
> just a text file - no driver needed, I'm not at home, so I don't
> know what the Mac stuff was.

This is getting complex. Yeah, having the latest Kernel support would be
nice. Hmm, maybe I should try again with an older kernel. I wonder how
to get it to see the modem in Ubuntu live CD.

FYI,
http://knoppix.net/forum/threads/30210-Dial-up-Modem-and-KNOPPIX-v7.0.4-Live-CD-...
has new posts and fiddling with various stuff. So far, no luck.

[Ant]

> > I still have my old external serial USR Sportster 33.6k (only connects
> > at 28800-31200 speeds on crappy old copper landlines) dial-up modem at
> > home. It still works as of 1.75 years ago when I tested it. :) I was
> > hoping to find a cheap/free USB one since serial/COM types are pretty
> > much gone these days.

> Why not use a USB to serial converter cable?

I can, but it's very old and will die one day. I need to replacements
when that happen. ;)

[Moe Trin]

On Thu, 20 Sep 2012, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.os.linux.hardware, in article
<RYadnblJgLP6HsbN...@earthlink.com>, Ant wrote:

] I wrote:

>> The semi-good news is that there was both a free and 'for-pay'
>> driver from linuxant.com. The free version is limited to 14400 BPS,
>> while the for-pay supposedly has the full v.92 capability.

>What? We have to pay for full speeds? I thought these drivers were
>supposed to be open sourced and free as beer in Linux.

The v.32 driver (ITU v.32 and v.32 bis cover speed from 4800 to 14.4
and I don't know if they include v.22 which does 1200 and 2400 BPS) is
free and open. v.34 and v.34+ are a different protocol and different
modulation scheme, and allow speeds up to 33.6. v.90 and v.92 are
yet another set of protocols, with different modulation schemes.
It's no big deal in a hardware modem, because the chip has all of the
features included. In a software modem, each protocol is a different
software program.

>Bah to 14.4k speed. That's useless and too slow. My old home's phone
>lines can go up to 31200 (rarely), but mostly at 26400 and 28800. ;)

Going above 28.8 takes a relatively clean phone line - when we moved
here in 1997, the houses were only about 6 years old, but the cheap
grade of string they were using for phone lines was deteriorating, and
even 28.8 was "iffy". Significant rework in 2002, when they finally
fixed the infrastructure to support DSL, and now 44.0K is pretty
common. Softmodems need a pretty good signal to work with, in
addition to a lot of CPU cycles. In 1997, I saw a demonstration of
a 56k modem running at 50k+ in a genuine IBM PC-XT (4.88 MHz 8088)
while the hardware requirements of the early winmodems specified a
Pentium 133. BogoMIPS are relatively meaningless, but they give a
suggestion of CPU horsepower - the BogoMips mini-howto lists the XT at
0.02 BogoMips, while a P-133 is around 53 which equates to about 260
times faster. I've got better things to do with my CPU cycles.

>Hmm, KNOPPIX v7.0.4 CD doesn't seem to have pppconfig included.

That's a Debian standard since at least 1996. You'd find it on
most Debian clones as well. I don't bother with it, as I had by
then created a "standard" ppp setup without all of the ``helpers''
and have been using that ever since.

>I ran pppconfig and tried to configure ppp, but it couldn't find my
>modem and kept showing serial ports (no modems there!) which is not
>right. This driver is a bit complex. :(

Have you compiled/installed the linuxant driver? If not, then there
is no modem, and no helper tool is going to find what's not there.

>This is getting complex. Yeah, having the latest Kernel support would
>be nice. Hmm, maybe I should try again with an older kernel. I wonder
>how to get it to see the modem in Ubuntu live CD.

Unless the LiveCD includes the linuxant driver, I don't think any will
see a modem. At best, they'll see an unknown USB device, but won't
have a clue how to talk to it. I don't think I've seen any kernel,
never mind a distribution include the/any softmodem drivers.

In Message-ID: <m6OdnVS8Pryc4MbN...@earthlink.com> in
comp.os.linux.networking, you mention that you want a modem as a
backup if the cable goes down (I assume you have an appropriate
dialin ISP). I'd suggest looking at Frys - about three weeks ago,
they had a Zoom and USR modem (both USB) on sale. NewEgg also was
listing one for around $35. I wouldn't waste time/effort on the
loosemodem. Speaking about USB/RS-232 adapters, those are also
fairly cheap and available. I bought one some time ago, because the
last three computers I bought lack a RS-232 port, while they had a
minimum of 3 USB ports. The older UPS is RS-232 controlled, while the
new one has both RS-232 and USB. Actually, the two fileservers at
home each have an _ISA_ modem installed - the phone wires aren't
plugged in normally, but they do work just fine (if a bit slow) as
backups to the backups. ;-)

Old guy

[Ant]

> >> The semi-good news is that there was both a free and 'for-pay'
> >> driver from linuxant.com. The free version is limited to 14400 BPS,
> >> while the for-pay supposedly has the full v.92 capability.

> >What? We have to pay for full speeds? I thought these drivers were
> >supposed to be open sourced and free as beer in Linux.

> The v.32 driver (ITU v.32 and v.32 bis cover speed from 4800 to 14.4
> and I don't know if they include v.22 which does 1200 and 2400 BPS) is
> free and open. v.34 and v.34+ are a different protocol and different
> modulation scheme, and allow speeds up to 33.6. v.90 and v.92 are
> yet another set of protocols, with different modulation schemes.
> It's no big deal in a hardware modem, because the chip has all of the
> features included. In a software modem, each protocol is a different
> software program.

Interesting.

> >Bah to 14.4k speed. That's useless and too slow. My old home's phone
> >lines can go up to 31200 (rarely), but mostly at 26400 and 28800. ;)

> Going above 28.8 takes a relatively clean phone line - when we moved
> here in 1997, the houses were only about 6 years old, but the cheap
> grade of string they were using for phone lines was deteriorating, and
> even 28.8 was "iffy". Significant rework in 2002, when they finally
> fixed the infrastructure to support DSL, and now 44.0K is pretty
> common. Softmodems need a pretty good signal to work with, in
> addition to a lot of CPU cycles. In 1997, I saw a demonstration of
> a 56k modem running at 50k+ in a genuine IBM PC-XT (4.88 MHz 8088)
> while the hardware requirements of the early winmodems specified a
> Pentium 133. BogoMIPS are relatively meaningless, but they give a
> suggestion of CPU horsepower - the BogoMips mini-howto lists the XT at
> 0.02 BogoMips, while a P-133 is around 53 which equates to about 260
> times faster. I've got better things to do with my CPU cycles.

Yeah. Around here, copper phone lines suck and still are. It is not just
my home, it's many places.

> >Hmm, KNOPPIX v7.0.4 CD doesn't seem to have pppconfig included.

> That's a Debian standard since at least 1996. You'd find it on
> most Debian clones as well. I don't bother with it, as I had by
> then created a "standard" ppp setup without all of the ``helpers''
> and have been using that ever since.

Ah.

> >I ran pppconfig and tried to configure ppp, but it couldn't find my
> >modem and kept showing serial ports (no modems there!) which is not
> >right. This driver is a bit complex. :(

> Have you compiled/installed the linuxant driver? If not, then there
> is no modem, and no helper tool is going to find what's not there.

Yes, see the latest posts in
http://knoppix.net/forum/threads/30210-Dial-up-Modem-and-KNOPPIX-v7.0.4-Live-CD-
... I finally was able to send AT commands to this modem and receive
replies. I did not bother to try connecting to an ISP since 14.4k speed
sucks and I didn't want to pay for faster speeds. :)

> >This is getting complex. Yeah, having the latest Kernel support would
> >be nice. Hmm, maybe I should try again with an older kernel. I wonder
> >how to get it to see the modem in Ubuntu live CD.

> Unless the LiveCD includes the linuxant driver, I don't think any will
> see a modem. At best, they'll see an unknown USB device, but won't
> have a clue how to talk to it. I don't think I've seen any kernel,
> never mind a distribution include the/any softmodem drivers.

> In Message-ID: <m6OdnVS8Pryc4MbN...@earthlink.com> in
> comp.os.linux.networking, you mention that you want a modem as a
> backup if the cable goes down (I assume you have an appropriate
> dialin ISP). I'd suggest looking at Frys - about three weeks ago,
> they had a Zoom and USR modem (both USB) on sale. NewEgg also was
> listing one for around $35. I wouldn't waste time/effort on the
> loosemodem. Speaking about USB/RS-232 adapters, those are also
> fairly cheap and available. I bought one some time ago, because the
> last three computers I bought lack a RS-232 port, while they had a
> minimum of 3 USB ports. The older UPS is RS-232 controlled, while the
> new one has both RS-232 and USB. Actually, the two fileservers at
> home each have an _ISA_ modem installed - the phone wires aren't
> plugged in normally, but they do work just fine (if a bit slow) as
> backups to the backups. ;-)

Yeah, I wanted to get USB because they're everywhere and serial/COM
ports are rare. Also, USB power is nice instead having to get a power AC
like those old serial modems. :( How does one know which USB modems are
hardware based modems though? I do have dial-up, EarthLink (classic
package for $9.95 per month). :)

Now, I just had an idea. I wonder if I can use virtual machines (VMs
like VirtualBox) to use this USB modem and call out inside of it. I
could live with that. If that doesn't work, then I will have to use the
dial-up modem in Windows since they work fully. :(

[tb]

On 09/24/2012 03:03 PM, Ant wrote:

>
> Yeah, I wanted to get USB because they're everywhere and serial/COM
> ports are rare. Also, USB power is nice instead having to get a power AC
> like those old serial modems. :( How does one know which USB modems are
> hardware based modems though? I do have dial-up, EarthLink (classic
> package for $9.95 per month). :)
>

The following USRobotics modems work with Linux:

* Model 5610C (internal, PCI interface)
* Model 5637 (external, USB interface)
--
tb


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---

[Ant]

> The following USRobotics modems work with Linux:

> * Model 5610C (internal, PCI interface)

I can't use PCI on newer machines that have no PCI slots. Definitely
none with laptops/notebooks. ;)

> * Model 5637 (external, USB interface)

Ooh, it even supports Macs! I think I will get one! Does it come with
drivers or can the current Kernels support it without doing anything
compilation and stuff? Basically, can I just plug it in and it will be
ready for usage?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16825104006 and
http://www.amazon.com/USRobotics-USR5637-FaxModem-Windows-Linux/dp/B0013FDLM0/
shows it for $43.9x which isn't bad too! :) Although, I am more
concerned about their low ratings and negative reviews on there. :(

[Moe Trin]

On Mon, 24 Sep 2012, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.os.linux.hardware, in article
<E7CdnTcMW63jIf3N...@earthlink.com>, Ant wrote:

] I wrote:

>> In Message-ID: <m6OdnVS8Pryc4MbN...@earthlink.com> in
>> comp.os.linux.networking, you mention that you want a modem as a
>> backup if the cable goes down (I assume you have an appropriate
>> dialin ISP). I'd suggest looking at Frys - about three weeks ago,
>> they had a Zoom and USR modem (both USB) on sale. NewEgg also was

>> listing one for around $35. [...] Actually, the two fileservers at

>> home each have an _ISA_ modem installed - the phone wires aren't
>> plugged in normally, but they do work just fine (if a bit slow) as
>> backups to the backups. ;-)

>Yeah, I wanted to get USB because they're everywhere and serial/COM
>ports are rare. Also, USB power is nice instead having to get a power
>AC like those old serial modems. :(

They're nice, and don't take up all that much deskspace, but they
have one MAJOR disadvantage: no speaker. Second disadvantage is
that they may have few (if any) indicators. Third concern is that
(at least the USR 5637 I'm using) the cable from the PC to the modem
is short - 4 inches in the 5637 - which limits where the modem can
be located. You've got a "PWR" LED ton indicate that the modem is
receiving USB power, and a "DATA" LED which is "on" when there is a
modem-to-modem connection that is idle, and it blinks (roughly 1/2 to
1 second on, same amount off) when data is being transferred to/from
the phone line. The blink rate is fixed, and makes no indication of
how much data is moving in which direction. I dunno about you, but
all modems I've used in the past had the speaker so you could hear
the call negotiations, and external modems had lights to show TX, RX
data and the handshaking signals, and I got used to that. There used
to be a small application named "modemlights' that put a tiny display
on your desktop that emulated the front panel of an external modem,
but this app only worked with external and ISA internal modems, not
even PCI or USB,

>How does one know which USB modems are hardware based modems though?

Search engine - look for make/model and the word Linux. Long ago,
there used to be a web page named "WINMODEMS ARE NOT MODEMS" from
Rob Clark, but the page hasn't been maintained for many years, and
none of the links I can find work any more. The existing Modem-HOWTO
and Hardware-HOWTO aren't recent enough to be useful.

>Now, I just had an idea. I wonder if I can use virtual machines (VMs
>like VirtualBox) to use this USB modem and call out inside of it. I
>could live with that. If that doesn't work, then I will have to use
>the dial-up modem in Windows since they work fully. :(

Got plenty of CPU cycles and RAM to waste?

Old guy

[Ant]

> >Yeah, I wanted to get USB because they're everywhere and serial/COM
> >ports are rare. Also, USB power is nice instead having to get a power
> >AC like those old serial modems. :(

> They're nice, and don't take up all that much deskspace, but they
> have one MAJOR disadvantage: no speaker. Second disadvantage is
> that they may have few (if any) indicators. Third concern is that
> (at least the USR 5637 I'm using) the cable from the PC to the modem
> is short - 4 inches in the 5637 - which limits where the modem can
> be located. You've got a "PWR" LED ton indicate that the modem is
> receiving USB power, and a "DATA" LED which is "on" when there is a
> modem-to-modem connection that is idle, and it blinks (roughly 1/2 to
> 1 second on, same amount off) when data is being transferred to/from
> the phone line. The blink rate is fixed, and makes no indication of
> how much data is moving in which direction. I dunno about you, but
> all modems I've used in the past had the speaker so you could hear
> the call negotiations, and external modems had lights to show TX, RX
> data and the handshaking signals, and I got used to that. There used
> to be a small application named "modemlights' that put a tiny display
> on your desktop that emulated the front panel of an external modem,
> but this app only worked with external and ISA internal modems, not
> even PCI or USB,

Wow, that sucks! Do any USB modems even have more lights, audio speaker,
etc.? Ugh, I don't want to have to carry an old serial modem with its
USB adapter and power AC. :(

> >Now, I just had an idea. I wonder if I can use virtual machines (VMs
> >like VirtualBox) to use this USB modem and call out inside of it. I
> >could live with that. If that doesn't work, then I will have to use
> >the dial-up modem in Windows since they work fully. :(

> Got plenty of CPU cycles and RAM to waste?

Are Intel Core5 and i7 speeds, and 2 GB of RAM enough? :P
--
Quote of the Week: "Imagine what it would be like to dive into a pool of
army ants? You would be nothing but bone in a matter of seconds. If
you're not up to that, just imagine putting your hand in a jar of them.
It would have to be labeled corrosive or something." --Zhan Huan Zhou

[Moe Trin]

On Tue, 25 Sep 2012, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.os.linux.hardware, in article
<c86dncloufKKZvzN...@earthlink.com>, Ant wrote:

]tb wrote:

>> * Model 5637 (external, USB interface)

>Ooh, it even supports Macs! I think I will get one! Does it come with
>drivers or can the current Kernels support it without doing anything
>compilation and stuff?

Mac: insert the install CD double-click on "USRobotics 56K USB
Modem" to launch installer. (OSX 10.4.3 or higher)
Linux: no need to install drivers (2.4.20 kernel or higher)
windoze apparently has the normal automatic mal-ware installer.

[galileo ~]$ ls /media/cdrom/
autorun.exe Linux USR5637Installer32bit.exe
AUTORUN.INF Manuals USR5637Installer64bit.exe
DriverInst.exe Setup.bmp usrcdgui.exe
insthelper.msi Setup.exe USRCDMAP.ini
license Software usrproduct.bmp
license.exe usr5637.cat Xtras
license.ini USR5637.inf
[galileo ~]$ ls /media/cdrom/Linux
Dutch French German Greek Italian Readme Spanish
[galileo ~]$ wc /media/cdrom/Linux/Readme
85 390 2365 /media/cdrom/Linux/Readme
[galileo ~]$ ls /media/cdrom/Software/
BVRP iBand MOH
[galileo ~]$

>Basically, can I just plug it in and it will be ready for usage?

Only thing needed is to tell pppd where the modem is (/dev/ttyACM0
rather than /dev/ttySx) and use the right init-string. I did change
the port speed (RS-232 ports top out at 115200, USB can do 230400).

[galileo ~]$ cat /etc/ppp/options | column
lock crtscts nodetach defaultroute
/dev/ttyACM0 modem 230400 noipdefault
[galileo ~]$ ls -l /etc/ppp/*ap-secrets /etc/resolv.conf
-rw------- 1 root root 99 Jun 16 2008 /etc/ppp/chap-secrets
-rw------- 1 root root 94 Jun 16 2008 /etc/ppp/pap-secrets
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 49 Aug 21 2011 /etc/resolv.conf
[galileo ~]$ cat /usr/local/bin/dialin.example
exec /usr/sbin/pppd user ibup...@example.com connect "/usr/sbin/chat
ABORT BUSY \"\" AT\&F1 OK ATDT2662902 CONNECT \"\d\c\""
[galileo ~]$

NOTE: That's one long (126 characters here) line.
NOTE: CONNECT \\\d\\\c" also works (isn't quoting fun???)

As regards dialing commands to 'chat', "ABORT BUSY" tells it to bail
if the line is busy, the escaped empty quotes says "wait for nothing"
then send the modem init string. When the modem replies with an OK,
dial the number, wait for it to report connecting, and exit the chat
script without sending a carriage return that upsets some servers.

Helper? What helper? If you need to use the nameservers of the
dialin ISP (option "usepeerdns"), you'd also need to have an
/etc/ppp/ip-up file to copy /etc/ppp/peerdns to /etc/resolv.conf
when the link comes up, and /etc/ppp/ip-down to restore the previous
/etc/resolv.conf when the link goes down. All in the pppd man-page.

Old guy

[Moe Trin]

On Tue, 25 Sep 2012, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.os.linux.hardware, in article
<vPadndY7ot3buv_N...@earthlink.com>, Ant wrote:

] I wrote:

>> They're nice, and don't take up all that much deskspace, but they
>> have one MAJOR disadvantage: no speaker. Second disadvantage is
>> that they may have few (if any) indicators. Third concern is that
>> (at least the USR 5637 I'm using) the cable from the PC to the
>> modem is short - 4 inches in the 5637 - which limits where the
>> modem can be located.

>Wow, that sucks! Do any USB modems even have more lights, audio
>speaker, etc.?

I can't say that I've seen any. Part of it is that the manufacturers
are making the stuff as small as they can - ignoring the cables, the
USR5637 is about 1 x 1.5 x 3.9 inch (24 x 37 x 101 mm) which doesn't
leave much space for a speaker or even an earphone jack,

>Ugh, I don't want to have to carry an old serial modem with its
>USB adapter and power AC. :(

With a little experience, you can pretty well tell what's going on
without the sound or extra lights. I think it's an acceptable
trade-off because it's smaller than the AC adapter for my laptop
and fits into the courier bag with no problem.

>> Got plenty of CPU cycles and RAM to waste?

>Are Intel Core5 and i7 speeds, and 2 GB of RAM enough? :P

[galileo ~]$ free -m
total used free shared buffers cached
Mem: 16182 4212 11364 190 815 1953
-/+ buffers/cache: 0 14103
Swap: 80 0 0
[galileo ~]$

I'd say you're a bit short of RAM ;P Heck, even my laptop has
8 Gigs. Of course, at the other end of things, the 486 fileserver
at home has 64 Megs, while the Pentium has 256 Megs, but they don't
even have displays or keyboards Up till about a year ago, the
firewall box to the world was the remains of an 80386-SX16 maxed out
with 16 Megs of RAM and a 213 Meg drive. Worked just fine with a
2.0.40 kernel.

Old guy

[Michael Black]

The speaker and lights mean less in this day and age, where someone is
likely to be dialing one number, their ISP. In the old days you'd be
calling various places, all those BBSs if nothing else, and the lights and
speaker were useful because it helped you tell if that system was down at
the moment or it was something at your end.

Now, you're likely to dial only your ISP, and only occasionally will there
be a problem. If you havent' touched your system for a while, then the
problem has to be at the ISP end, something you can't fix.

I certainly haven't needed the speaker since I moved to my current ISP, in
2006. And before that, I'd been at my first ISP since late 1996. After a
while, it's routine, the lights are nice but most of the time you never
need them.

That said, in this day and age, Linux gives a fairly good set of messages
when there is a problem. Set "debug" in /etc/ppp/options and you get a
better picture of what's happening. Though, when my ISP had an issue
amonth ago, it wasn't authenticating, the extra debug messages didn't tell
me anything more than the usual message, it wasn't authenticating. I just
say the multiple attempts to get authentication with "debug".

Michael

[Michael Black]

On Tue, 25 Sep 2012, Ant wrote:


> Wow, that sucks! Do any USB modems even have more lights, audio speaker,
> etc.? Ugh, I don't want to have to carry an old serial modem with its
> USB adapter and power AC. :(
>

Open up the modem, open up the USB adapter, take the board out of the USB
adapter case, and fit it into the modem case. If it's small enough, then
wire it up.

The real problem is the AC adapter. A lot of external modems used a
higher voltage, often AC, to get what it needed, and you won't get that
from 5V via the USB connection.

My first 2400baud modem was an ISA internal, I got it for $5 at a garage
sale in 1995, and I removed the UART from the board (it was early enough
that the UART was separate from the other electronics) added some RS-232
drivers and receivers, and it became an external modem, the serial signals
coming and going to where the UART outputs went to the rest of the modem.

But then, I was using a computer that only had a serial port, so the ISA
bus wouldn't work for me. About 6 months later I got an external USR
Robotics 2400 with HST and that replaced it, though it was a lot bigger.

Michael

[Moe Trin]

On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.os.linux.hardware, in article
<Pine.LNX.4.64.12...@darkstar.example.net>, Michael Black wrote:

>Moe Trin wrote:

>> They're nice, and don't take up all that much deskspace, but they
>> have one MAJOR disadvantage: no speaker. Second disadvantage is
>> that they may have few (if any) indicators.

>The speaker and lights mean less in this day and age, where someone is
>likely to be dialing one number, their ISP. In the old days you'd be
>calling various places, all those BBSs if nothing else, and the lights
>and speaker were useful because it helped you tell if that system was
>down at the moment or it was something at your end.

[fermi ~]$ dialin --help
Usage: /usr/local/bin/dialin script_number { [0-9] | [10-19] | next }
[fermi ~]$

TWENTY different phone numbers??? Yup. That's actually three
different ISPs and four business related connections. Looking at the
logs, I see about 30 different terminal servers answering the phone.

>Now, you're likely to dial only your ISP, and only occasionally will
>there be a problem. If you havent' touched your system for a while,
>then the problem has to be at the ISP end, something you can't fix.

Less of a problem now, but the local telco used to have quite horrible
lines here, static, squeals, and occasional echos. Until they added
local "Remote Access Multiplexers" for DSL in 2002, the modems would
have trouble negotiating a 28.8 connection, and I've got stats showing
the modems actually speed shifting down to 9600 on occasion. Now, it
varies, but I can usually get at least 44.0 and sometimes higher.

>That said, in this day and age, Linux gives a fairly good set of
>messages when there is a problem. Set "debug" in /etc/ppp/options
>and you get a better picture of what's happening. Though, when my
>ISP had an issue amonth ago, it wasn't authenticating, the extra
>debug messages didn't tell me anything more than the usual message,
>it wasn't authenticating.

Never mind that fewer people are using pppd today, most of those who
are are using some ``helper'' program that hides a lot of details.

Your syslog daemon has to know to stick the "daemon:debug" messages
in the right log file. Modem problems are detected by calling chat
with the "-v" option and having the syslog daemon stick "local2.info"
someplace useful. That gets you the dialog between chat and the
modem. I'm running pppd from a command line, and have added
"REPORT CONNECT" to the dialing string. Way down near the bottom of
that "/user/local/bin/dialin" file, the actual dirty work is done by
a single 168 character line:

/usr/sbin/pppd $DEV ipparam $IPPAR user $USERNAME connect
"/usr/sbin/chat REPORT CONNECT ABORT \"NO DIALTONE\" ABORT BUSY
\"\" $INITSTR OK ATDT$PHNUM CONNECT \"\d\c\""

The "REPORT CONNECT" results in something like

chat: Sep 27 06:03:29 CONNECT 49333/ARQ/V92/LAPM/V44

and because one of the options I'm using is "nodetach", I also get
the "PAP authentication succeeded" (or CHAP depending). The indication
that the ISP has their head up and locked is either

Connect script failed

which means chat didn't see a "CONNECT" string, or

Serial connection established.
Using interface ppp0
Connect: ppp0 <--> /dev/ttyACM0
LCP: timeout sending Config-Requests
Connection terminated.

which means the modem made contact, but their terminal server didn't
respond properly. An authentication failure usually lacks that LCP
timeout message, or it can actually come back with the "authentication
failed" message.

>I just say the multiple attempts to get authentication with "debug".

You mean multiple lines like

Jul 3 09:55:27 gtech pppd[924]: sent [PAP AuthReq id=0x1
user=<hidden>password=<hidden>]

or

Jul 3 09:55:27 gtech pppd[924]: sent [CHAP Response id=0x1
<f3b2eb25b1bba6bf509effa489083d14>, name =<hidden>]

with incrementing "id=" numbers? That usually means the RADIUS server
(RFC2865 and friends) is either tits up, or the network connection
from the terminal server (what you're dialing into) and the RADIUS
server is b0rked. Happens occasionally. CHAP is supposed to send
a "challenge" to initiate the authentication exchange, perhaps

Jul 3 09:55:27 gtech pppd[924]: rcvd [CHAP Challenge id=0x1
<a472f238cbf7a415e39c26f0115269e4>, name = "abc123.example.com"]

and if you don't receive that, CHAP will fail. The pppd daemon on
your end knows we'll be using PAP or CHAP because the initial LCP
packet from the terminal server will contain an "auth" token like
"<auth pap>" or "<auth chap 05>", and your pppd will ConfAck that.

Old guy

[Moe Trin]

On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.os.linux.hardware, in article
<Pine.LNX.4.64.12...@darkstar.example.net>, Michael Black wrote:

>Open up the modem, open up the USB adapter, take the board out of the
>USB adapter case, and fit it into the modem case. If it's small
>enough, then wire it up.

The boards lack the relay or switch function for the speaker, and the
chipset lacks the light functions.

>The real problem is the AC adapter. A lot of external modems used a
>higher voltage, often AC, to get what it needed, and you won't get
>that from 5V via the USB connection.

There are dozens of 5 volt three terminal regulators, such as the 7805
family that will easily handle that. A diode and small electrolytic
if AC in.

>My first 2400baud modem was an ISA internal, I got it for $5 at a
>garage sale in 1995,

Geesh, you started late - my first home personal computer was an
Osborne model 1 (running CP/M in 1981) and it came with a 300 baud
(Bell 103 and ITU v.21), but I was using 300 baud modems with a
terminal in 1976. They used an acoustic coupler that you placed the
telephone handset into. Not sure when I graduated to a smoking 1200
BPS - probably around 1984.

Old guy

[Michael Black]

On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Moe Trin wrote:

> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, in the Usenet newsgroup comp.os.linux.hardware, in article
> <Pine.LNX.4.64.12...@darkstar.example.net>, Michael Black wrote:
>
>> Open up the modem, open up the USB adapter, take the board out of the
>> USB adapter case, and fit it into the modem case. If it's small
>> enough, then wire it up.
>
> The boards lack the relay or switch function for the speaker, and the
> chipset lacks the light functions.
>

No, the USB converter converts to serial, then the external modem should
act like it always does. I'm just talking about a more compact package,
instead of the USB converter and the modem in separate cases.

>> The real problem is the AC adapter. A lot of external modems used a
>> higher voltage, often AC, to get what it needed, and you won't get
>> that from 5V via the USB connection.
>
> There are dozens of 5 volt three terminal regulators, such as the 7805
> family that will easily handle that. A diode and small electrolytic
> if AC in.
>

But it's the modem that needs the AC adapter, the USB to serial converter
presumably lives off 5v from the USB line.

If the modem only needed 5v, then yes, grab that from the USB line. But
it often needs more voltages, if for no other reason than the RS232
drivers and receivers. It needs a higher voltage because it needs higher
voltages inside, and an adapter with AC voltage output allows the internal
design to be simpler.

So I'm saying that while he might (if there's enough room) get one package
for the modem and USB converter, he's not likely to be able to avoid the
AC adapter for the modem.

>> My first 2400baud modem was an ISA internal, I got it for $5 at a >>
>> garage sale in 1995,
>
> Geesh, you started late - my first home personal computer was an
> Osborne model 1 (running CP/M in 1981) and it came with a 300 baud
> (Bell 103 and ITU v.21), but I was using 300 baud modems with a
> terminal in 1976. They used an acoustic coupler that you placed the
> telephone handset into. Not sure when I graduated to a smoking 1200
> BPS - probably around 1984.
>

That was my "first 2400baud modem". I had a 300 in my Model 100 laptop,
which could plug into a phone jack or with optional modem cups be
acoustically coupled. I had the Model 100 in 1985. I didn't get an
external modem, a 1200 baud, till 1989.

Michael

[Ant]

Michael Black <et...@ncf.ca> wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Sep 2012, Ant wrote:


> > Wow, that sucks! Do any USB modems even have more lights, audio speaker,
> > etc.? Ugh, I don't want to have to carry an old serial modem with its
> > USB adapter and power AC. :(
> >
> Open up the modem, open up the USB adapter, take the board out of the USB
> adapter case, and fit it into the modem case. If it's small enough, then
> wire it up.

> The real problem is the AC adapter. A lot of external modems used a
> higher voltage, often AC, to get what it needed, and you won't get that
> from 5V via the USB connection.

Ah. I am not a handy type of guy due to my disabilities. I am more of
software guy. ;)

> My first 2400baud modem was an ISA internal, I got it for $5 at a garage
> sale in 1995, and I removed the UART from the board (it was early enough
> that the UART was separate from the other electronics) added some RS-232
> drivers and receivers, and it became an external modem, the serial signals
> coming and going to where the UART outputs went to the rest of the modem.

Was it a cheap generic type? I had a Zoom internal ISA modem for my IBM
PS/2 model 30 286 Mhz for Prodigy and then dial-up BBSes. The good old
days!

> But then, I was using a computer that only had a serial port, so the ISA
> bus wouldn't work for me. About 6 months later I got an external USR
> Robotics 2400 with HST and that replaced it, though it was a lot bigger.

Ah. :)
--
Quote of the Week: "Ladies and gentlemen, hoboes and tramps... Crosseyed
Mosquitoes and bow-legged ants... I've come to tell you the story..."
--Bob Holman