advice for my new Linux workstation
neun...@yahoo.fr
I'm looking to build a new Linux system. I call it a 'workstation'
because I never play game on it, never connect speaker to it
(I don't even configure the sound), etc.
I'll ask a few questions because I'm a bit lost with all the
technologies that appeared in the last 3 years.
Before-last system was a Pentium 4 / Asus mobo / Kingston
ram and is now happy hosting my SVN server and burning
backup DVDs.
Current system is Core 2 Duo E6300 / 4 GB or Kingston /
Asus mobo running Debian etch which I've build already quite
some years ago (3 years ago or so). It's a really good,
reliable setup, but I'm running VMs and I'd now like something
supporting more ram and a faster processor.
I really like Intel / Asus / Kingston for whatever reason: I've
build countless such systems (for me and relatives) and I've
always had good experience.
I'm now looking for a new system in the lower end range
but that would be quite an enhancement over my Core 2 Duo.
Specifically, I'd like recommandations for an Intel (ideally
Asus mobo / Kingston memory) system supporting 16 GB
of memory, but in which I could start by only putting 8 GB
(is this possible?) and into which I could then add another
8 GB later on.
(I'm not going to reuse any part of my Core 2 Duo, I'll keep
using it)
I've checked the price and DDR3 didn't seem that pricey compared
to DDR2.
I really don't know if I should take a i7 or a Xeon or ?
And I don't know if I should choose a system supporting DDR2 + DDR3
or just DDR2 or just DDR3 ?
Also, would you recommend 32 bit + PAE or 64 bit kernel ?
Can a 'cheap but reliable' (for workstation use, not server use)
that supports up to 16GB or ram be build today and would
latest Debian Linux allow me to easily use these 16 GB?
If you have a setup similar to what I'm looking for don't hesitate
to post specs / kernel / gotchas etc.
Thanks a lot for any help,
Driss
Darren Salt
> I'm looking to build a new Linux system. I call it a 'workstation' because
> I never play game on it, never connect speaker to it (I don't even
> configure the sound), etc.
> I'll ask a few questions because I'm a bit lost with all the technologies
> that appeared in the last 3 years.
> Before-last system was a Pentium 4 / Asus mobo / Kingston ram and is now
> happy hosting my SVN server and burning backup DVDs.
I don't know how much electricity is normally munched by that P4 box, but I
have some rough measurements from an old PII box and its replacement, which
has an Atom 330. They use 43W & 41W respectively when idle, and up to 70W &
45W under load. It would be worth you measuring what that P4 uses; it's
probably more...
[snip]
> Also, would you recommend 32 bit + PAE or 64 bit kernel ?
amd64, definitely.
> Can a 'cheap but reliable' (for workstation use, not server use) that
> supports up to 16GB or ram be build today and would latest Debian Linux
> allow me to easily use these 16 GB?
I would expect so (but pick any two from cheap, reliable and fast).
Remember that you can do an i386 install and still have a 64-bit kernel (so
long as you install linux-image-$VERSION-amd64).
[snip]
--
| Darren Salt | linux at youmustbejoking | nr. Ashington, | Doon
| using Debian GNU/Linux | or ds ,demon,co,uk | Northumberland | Army
| + http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEeePC/
If it works, rip it apart and find out why.
neun...@yahoo.fr
<n...@youmustbejoking.demon.cu.invalid> wrote:
...
> > Before-last system was a Pentium 4 / Asus mobo / Kingston ram and is now
> > happy hosting my SVN server and burning backup DVDs.
>
> I don't know how much electricity is normally munched by that P4 box, but I
> have some rough measurements from an old PII box and its replacement, which
> has an Atom 330. They use 43W & 41W respectively when idle, and up to 70W &
> 45W under load. It would be worth you measuring what that P4 uses; it's
> probably more...
I know I know but to be honest that P4 is mostly unplugged and turned
off. I boot it
up when I do my commits and when I need to burn DVDs/backups. It's my
Core 2 Duo
workstation that always stays on :)
> [snip]
>
> > Also, would you recommend 32 bit + PAE or 64 bit kernel ?
>
> amd64, definitely.
>
> > Can a 'cheap but reliable' (for workstation use, not server use) that
> > supports up to 16GB or ram be build today and would latest Debian Linux
> > allow me to easily use these 16 GB?
>
> I would expect so (but pick any two from cheap, reliable and fast).
Well... Honestly people said exactly the same when I build my cheap
Core 2 Duo / 4 GB of mem. Everybody was screaming "undetected bit
flips! undetected bit flips, you cannot put 4 GB of non-ECC in your
setup,
it shall be unreliable". Yet that machine reached 6 months of uptime
regularly, I've never had a program that I couldn't "kill -9" to free
all its
resources, etc.
I guess I'd pick 'cheap' and 'reliable' and 'faster than my current
Core 2 Duo.
I'm a bit surprised: do people actually have Linux workstation with
lots
of memory that can rival what, say, Apple is offering to their
customers
(for a premium, but that's not my point)?
I can go to the Apple store and buy an Intel-based Mac with 16 GB
or ram and it's really a nice and fast machine.
What can I assemble 'by hand' that would run Linux and be 'reasonnably
cheap' (say less than $1000) and support up to 16 GB of ram?
With several virtual machines on my 3-years old Core 2 Duo / 4 GB of
ram I'm beginning to feel the need for more mem...
neun...@yahoo.fr
I may be looking at a Core i5 / Asus P7P55??? supporting 16 GB or ram
(motherboard seems to support it). Ideally I'd starting by putting 8
GB in
it then later on I'd add another 8 GB (once again, I'm running virtual
machines, I do need the memory: my 4 GB setup ain't enough anymore).
If anyone has such a rig running Linux infos would be very much
appreciated :)
Darren Salt
> On Nov 20, 10:52 pm, Darren Salt <n...@youmustbejoking.demon.cu.invalid>
wrote:
> ...
>>> Before-last system was a Pentium 4 / Asus mobo / Kingston ram and is now
>>> happy hosting my SVN server and burning backup DVDs.
>> I don't know how much electricity is normally munched by that P4 box, but
>> I have some rough measurements from an old PII box and its replacement,
>> which has an Atom 330. They use 43W & 41W respectively when idle, and up
>> to 70W & 45W under load. It would be worth you measuring what that P4
>> uses; it's probably more...
> I know I know but to be honest that P4 is mostly unplugged and turned off.
"Hosting my SVN server" does imply otherwise :-)
> I boot it up when I do my commits and when I need to burn DVDs/backups.
> It's my Core 2 Duo workstation that always stays on :)
You probably want to be using mercurial or git, then, and to put a DVD burner
in the workstation. Using the P4 for backups, though – there's no reason to
stop that that I can see.
>> [snip]
>>> Also, would you recommend 32 bit + PAE or 64 bit kernel ?
>> amd64, definitely.
>>> Can a 'cheap but reliable' (for workstation use, not server use) that
>>> supports up to 16GB or ram be build today and would latest Debian Linux
>>> allow me to easily use these 16 GB?
>> I would expect so (but pick any two from cheap, reliable and fast).
> Well... Honestly people said exactly the same when I build my cheap Core 2
> Duo / 4 GB of mem. Everybody was screaming "undetected bit flips!
> undetected bit flips, you cannot put 4 GB of non-ECC in your setup, it
> shall be unreliable".
Unreliability is relative. Maybe the bit flips are all hitting unused memory,
or spare space in data structures? :-)
(Yes, ECC is better. It's also that bit more expensive.)
> Yet that machine reached 6 months of uptime regularly, I've never had a
> program that I couldn't "kill -9" to free all its resources, etc.
X, on occasion. But then that runs as root and messes with the graphics
hardware; should be better with Radeon KMS, though...
> I guess I'd pick 'cheap' and 'reliable' and 'faster than my current
> Core 2 Duo'.
Well, of course. :-)
> I'm a bit surprised: do people actually have Linux workstation with lots of
> memory that can rival what, say, Apple is offering to their customers (for
> a premium, but that's not my point)?
Some do. I don't have that much memory in mine; what I do with it just
doesn't need that much.
> I can go to the Apple store and buy an Intel-based Mac with 16 GB or ram
> and it's really a nice and fast machine.
2GB is adequate for me; mostly, there's less than 1GB used.
> What can I assemble 'by hand' that would run Linux and be 'reasonnably
> cheap' (say less than $1000) and support up to 16 GB of ram?
Have a look for yourself. :-)
(The last box that I assembled cost about £150 for board, memory, disk and
case. It only has 1GB of non-ECC RAM, but that's easily enough for it...)
> With several virtual machines on my 3-years old Core 2 Duo / 4 GB of
> ram I'm beginning to feel the need for more mem...
That's easy. Throw more swap space at it!
;-)
--
| Darren Salt | linux at youmustbejoking | nr. Ashington, | Doon
| using Debian GNU/Linux | or ds ,demon,co,uk | Northumberland | Army
| + http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEeePC/
Pi there!
Joe
Buy hardware that supports 16GB, and you can install it. I'd
recommend the 64 bit kernel, though, as it manages that memory much
better.
>
> With several virtual machines on my 3-years old Core 2 Duo / 4 GB of
> ram I'm beginning to feel the need for more mem...
That's fine. Go buy what you can afford, and you'll be all set.
Pretty much any MB/CPU combo is going to be supported by a current
kernel, and it will handle all the memory you can throw at it..
--
Joe - Linux User #449481/Ubuntu User #19733
joe at hits - buffalo dot com
"Hate is baggage, life is too short to go around pissed off all the
time..." - Danny, American History X
GangGreene
I have an AMD solution that has 8GB and Quad core that I run three virtual
machines on it at the same time.
x86_64 AMD Phenom(tm) II X4 810 Processor AuthenticAMD GNU/Linux AM3
8GB DDR3
Gigabyte MB and graphics card
1TB software raid
00:00.0 Host bridge: ATI Technologies Inc RX780/RX790 Chipset Host Bridge
00:02.0 PCI bridge: ATI Technologies Inc RD790 PCI to PCI bridge (external
gfx0 port A)
00:0a.0 PCI bridge: ATI Technologies Inc RD790 PCI to PCI bridge (PCI
express gpp port F)
00:11.0 SATA controller: ATI Technologies Inc SB700/SB800 SATA Controller
[AHCI mode]
00:12.0 USB Controller: ATI Technologies Inc SB700/SB800 USB OHCI0
Controller
00:12.1 USB Controller: ATI Technologies Inc SB700 USB OHCI1 Controller
00:12.2 USB Controller: ATI Technologies Inc SB700/SB800 USB EHCI Controller
00:13.0 USB Controller: ATI Technologies Inc SB700/SB800 USB OHCI0
Controller
00:13.1 USB Controller: ATI Technologies Inc SB700 USB OHCI1 Controller
00:13.2 USB Controller: ATI Technologies Inc SB700/SB800 USB EHCI Controller
00:14.0 SMBus: ATI Technologies Inc SBx00 SMBus Controller (rev 3c)
00:14.1 IDE interface: ATI Technologies Inc SB700/SB800 IDE Controller
00:14.2 Audio device: ATI Technologies Inc SBx00 Azalia (Intel HDA)
00:14.3 ISA bridge: ATI Technologies Inc SB700/SB800 LPC host controller
00:14.4 PCI bridge: ATI Technologies Inc SBx00 PCI to PCI Bridge
00:14.5 USB Controller: ATI Technologies Inc SB700/SB800 USB OHCI2
Controller
00:18.0 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] K10 [Opteron, Athlon64,
Sempron] HyperTransport Configuration
00:18.1 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] K10 [Opteron, Athlon64,
Sempron] Address Map
00:18.2 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] K10 [Opteron, Athlon64,
Sempron] DRAM Controller
00:18.3 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] K10 [Opteron, Athlon64,
Sempron] Miscellaneous Control
00:18.4 Host bridge: Advanced Micro Devices [AMD] K10 [Opteron, Athlon64,
Sempron] Link Control
01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: ATI Technologies Inc RV730XT [Radeon HD
4670]
01:00.1 Audio device: ATI Technologies Inc R700 Audio Device [Radeon HD 4000
Series]
02:00.0 Ethernet controller: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL8111/8168B
PCI Express Gigabit Ethernet controller (rev 02)
03:07.0 Network controller: Broadcom Corporation BCM4318 [AirForce One 54g]
802.11g Wireless LAN Controller (rev 02)
03:0e.0 FireWire (IEEE 1394): Texas Instruments TSB43AB23 IEEE-1394a-2000
Controller (PHY/Link)
Running Arch Linux (64 bit) with virtualbox, I run WinXp, Win7, and Fedora12
in the virtual machines.
neun...@yahoo.fr
<n...@youmustbejoking.demon.cu.invalid> wrote:
...
> You probably want to be using mercurial or git, then, and to put a DVD burner
> in the workstation. Using the P4 for backups, though – there's no reason to
> stop that that I can see.
Ah yup, mercurial or git. I switched years ago from CVS to SVN and
don't regret it but it's mostly lazyness now. That little P4 is a Xen
system, the SVN repo is in a Xen VM and is working fine so I'm lazy
and just keep using that :-/
> Unreliability is relative. Maybe the bit flips are all hitting unused memory,
> or spare space in data structures? :-)
Or memory belonging to part of checksum'ed data : )
> X, on occasion. But then that runs as root and messes with the graphics
> hardware; should be better with Radeon KMS, though...
Yup... A really long time ago (like two years ago) I had an incredible
bug.
Something that would only trigger on auto-completion (when hitting tab-
tab)
on Samba shares! (I've seen other report of that bug). X was
seemingly
locked. But I became a master in recompiling kernels with MagicSysRQ
turned on and I love to MagicSysRQ kill X + vga_reset + restart.
No need to reboot : )
> Have a look for yourself. :-)
nooooo ;) I love feedback from fellow c.o.l.h. friends who've
build similar setup, which is kind of why I post here : )
neun...@yahoo.fr
> neune...@yahoo.fr wrote:
...
> Running Arch Linux (64 bit) with virtualbox, I run WinXp, Win7, and Fedora12
> in the virtual machines.
Nice setup you have there.
Compared to Xen and/or VMWare, would you recommend VirtualBox?
General Schvantzkoph
Is your current motherboard P35 based or P45 based. If it's P35 based you
can upgrade to 8G, if it's P45 based you can upgrade it to 16G although
4G DIMMs are still very pricey (16G will cost you in excess of $500).
The Core2 is still the fastest processor on a per thread basis. The
iCore7 has more cores but my benchmarking shows that it's about 10%
slower that the Core2 on a clock for clock basis. What's more it has a
slower clock. My two fastest boxes are an E8400 Core2 overclocked to 4GHz
and a 920 iCore7 overclocked to 3.3GHz (that's the best that it can do,
it's unstable above 3.3GHz). The Core2 has 8G of RAM, the iCore7 has 12G.
The Core2 is much faster on individual jobs and matches the iCore7 on
thoughput when I run multiple jobs. The problem with the iCore7 is that
it has a terrible cache architecture. The Core2 has a two level cache
with 6M second level cache shared by the two cores. The iCore7 has a
three level cache with an 8M third level cache shared by four cores. When
you are running all four cores at once the undersized cache degrades the
performance. The hyperthreading in the iCore7 seems to do almost nothing,
I found that that hyperthreading improves things by about 1% when you use
all 8 virtual cores (measured using GCC -j 8), and that it doesn't seem
to hurt individual thread performance the way that it did on the P4, but
for all practical purposes it might as well not be there. iCore7 systems
also cost a lot more than Core2 systems.
If I were you I'd build a second Core2 box and upgrade the first. You
have a low end Core2 in your current system, replace it with a E8500 and
up the RAM to 8G. If you build a second box then I'd recommend a Gigabyte
motherboard, I used the one below, I like it a lot better than the ASUS
board I put into my iCore7 box.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128358
I'd also recommend the Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme heatsink if you are
interested in overclocking. I used in in both of my fast boxes, it's the
best air cooler on the market.
I'm using 64 bit Fedora 11 on all of my systems. I'll probably upgrade my
compute servers to F12 next week. I'm using KVM for my virtual machines
which I've found is faster than VMware for Linux VMs (I run CentOS5 VMs
on top of Fedora, Fedora gives my hardware compatibility, CentOS gives me
software compatibility). The version of KVM in F12 has page sharing
between VMs which is useful if you are running multiple identical VMs. On
my workstation I still use VMware Server because it does a better job for
Windows VMs. I don't do any serious computing on my workstation, just
mail, web browsing, word processing, a Win2K VM to run Quickbooks, and an
X Server for all the things that I run on my compute servers (which all
run init 3, no X).
Szymon von Ulezalka
what about xeon L3426 ( http://ark.intel.com/Product.aspx?id=43233 ) +
intel's mobo + 2 (or, later 4)x 4gb ddr3 ram
system 64bit
its a quiet (tdp = 45!- so you do not need any andvanced cooling
system to keep it cool and quiet), rebust computer- sure, it's not the
cheapest you can get, but it will work for years. perfect for server/
workstation use.
szymon
neun...@yahoo.fr
wrote:
...
> Is your current motherboard P35 based or P45 based. If it's P35 based you
> can upgrade to 8G, if it's P45 based you can upgrade it to 16G although
> 4G DIMMs are still very pricey (16G will cost you in excess of $500).
It's an Asus P5LD2 SE, I don't know if it's P35 or P45 based or not
but when I bought it I did quite a lot of search and I think it was
supporting only 4 GB at max. I bought really quite some time ago.
P5LD2 SE
- Intel 945P/G chipset
- Intel LGA775
- FSB 1066/800/533
- DDR2 667/533/400
- RTL8111B PCIe Gbit LAN
> The Core2 has 8G of RAM, the iCore7 has 12G.
> The Core2 is much faster on individual jobs and matches
> the iCore7 on thoughput when I run multiple jobs.
That's very interesting!
> If I were you I'd build a second Core2 box and upgrade the first. You
> have a low end Core2 in your current system, replace it with a E8500 and
> up the RAM to 8G. If you build a second box then I'd recommend a Gigabyte
> motherboard, I used the one below, I like it a lot better than the ASUS
> board I put into my iCore7 box.
>
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128358
Thanks for the tip.
> I'd also recommend the Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme heatsink if you are
> interested in overclocking.
Ah no I'm not in overclocking at all... I'm into "quiet PCs". I've
got a huge
Ninja-Scythe radiator on my Core 2 Duo and no fans : )
neun...@yahoo.fr
...
> what about xeon L3426 (http://ark.intel.com/Product.aspx?id=43233) +
> intel's mobo + 2 (or, later 4)x 4gb ddr3 ram
> system 64bit
>
> its a quiet (tdp = 45!- so you do not need any andvanced cooling
> system to keep it cool and quiet), rebust computer- sure, it's not the
> cheapest you can get, but it will work for years. perfect for server/
> workstation use.
Yup I looked at the Xeon too.
Did you build such a system? I'd be interested too in kernel/drivers/
gotchas if any.
Honestly I don't know: newer Core 2, Core i7, Core i5 or Xeon.
Haven't settled yet at all :(
General Schvantzkoph
> On Nov 24, 3:14 pm, General Schvantzkoph <schvantzk...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> ...
>> Is your current motherboard P35 based or P45 based. If it's P35 based
>> you can upgrade to 8G, if it's P45 based you can upgrade it to 16G
>> although 4G DIMMs are still very pricey (16G will cost you in excess of
>> $500).
>
> It's an Asus P5LD2 SE, I don't know if it's P35 or P45 based or not but
> when I bought it I did quite a lot of search and I think it was
> supporting only 4 GB at max. I bought really quite some time ago.
>
> P5LD2 SE
> - Intel 945P/G chipset
> - Intel LGA775
> - FSB 1066/800/533
> - DDR2 667/533/400
> - RTL8111B PCIe Gbit LAN
The 945 chipset predates the P35 so it's possible that it doesn't support
2G DIMMs. My recommendation would be a Gigabyte P45 motherboard with an
8500 Core2 and 8G of DDR2-1066 RAM (the 1066 is useful if you overclock,
if you don't then DDR2-800 is fine). The only reason to buy an iCore7 is
if you need more than 8G. The iCore7 has 6 DIMMs so it's possible to put
in 12G of RAM at reasonable prices and 24G when the price of 4G DIMMs
drops. You could also bite the bullet and use 4G DIMMs on the Core2
system, you can get 16G of DDR2 for about $550. On the iCore7 you would
need DDR3 RAM which would cost you $800-$850.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128358
Szymon von Ulezalka
:)
> Did you build such a system? I'd be interested too in kernel/drivers/
> gotchas if any.
nope. i mean: i'm still happy with my current computer, so i will not
change it until spring 2011 (although i'm planning to buy more ram
and, possible, another harddrive). it is a e8400 (3ghz) and 4gb of
ram)- i use it for general computing (both on windows and linux).
unfortunatelly, it is lga775 socket, so i do not have good chances to
upgrade it later to something much better :~. not to mention, that in
2011 sata3 and usb3 will be a standard ;)
but, please, note- intel makes good mobos for servers, they are tested
and well supported in linux (which is, after all, mostly used on
servers) and, probably, other unices too (i'm thinking about freebsd).
and if you wanna to be 100% sure- buy mobos certificated by novell or
redhat (although, there should be no problem with those non-
certificated; use google if in doubts)
> Honestly I don't know: newer Core 2, Core i7, Core i5 or Xeon.
core2 (lga775) is obsolescent- buy it only if it will be cheap (like
*really* cheap)- because, in 3 years, if you will have to (or wanna
to) upgrade it, you will have to buy new processor + mobo + memory
core i7 and i5 are too much power-hungry: i mean: cooling them will be
noisy or sophisticated (water cooling)- if you are planning to use it
under your desk- noisness matters.
szymon
ps. sorry for my english