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The education cc has been begging for
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Snit
Jan 27, 2012, 2:43:51โฏPM1/27/12
to
OK, cc, when I gave you a list of items I believed, off the top of my head,
were invented at Apple, you denied it and said "most" were made at Xerox.
When pressed, though, you could not find evidence of *any* of this being
true. Not one from the list. You even pointed to a resource which
referenced how I was right about it being from Apple. I gave you a chance
to back your claims and you ran... whining and snipping and crying that I
was not being fair to you. You figured I owed you an education - I should
show you evidence for the things I claimed - even though you were openly
lying to me.
I told you I have no such obligation. And I do not. You are lying and I
have no obligation to educate you. But, hey, I am a kind and good hearted
man... so I did some research *for you*. Here is what I found... pretty
much full support for my claims... and some added Apple innovations I left
out. Oh, and I make some comments about your MS innovations ... you were,
of course, wrong about those, too.
Oh, and of course you will snip this and run. You will not admit I am right
or even mostly right. You will just lie and try to keep the idea that you
have some knowledge of GUIs and their development when you are completely
ignorant of it. You prove that time and time again.
OK, the list I gave you with one or more references *and quotes* for each.
And links so you can see the full context.
* Pull down menus
<http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2005/05/gui.ars>
-----
The Lisa team ... developed the first pull-down menu bar
-----
<http://goo.gl/dmKn>
-----
Apple Lisa and Macintosh (and later, the Apple IIgs)
Drop-down menus were also introduced.
-----
* Double clicking
<http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2005/05/gui.ars>
-----
[with the Lisa] the concept of double-clicking was invented
-----
* Trash can (or the like)
* Graying out inactive items
<http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2005/05/gui.ars>
-----
The Lisa also ... added new conventions, such as a trash can
for dragging documents scheduled for deletion, and the idea
of "graying out" menu options if they were not currently
available.
-----
<http://goo.gl/dmKn> (for the trash... and other items)
-----
There were a set of desk accessories like a calculator,
notepad, and alarm clock that the user could place around the
screen as desired; and the user could delete files and
folders by dragging them to a trash-can icon on the screen.
-----
* Full file system in GUI (as icons)
* GUI based hierarchical folder structure
<http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2005/05/gui.ars>
-----
While SmallTalk and the Xerox Star had icons that represented
files, the Lisa interface was the first to have the idea that
icons could represent all files in the filesystem, which
could then be browsed through using a hierarchal directory
structure where each directory opened in a new window.
------
* drag and drop
<http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2005/05/gui.ars>
-----
The idea of "drag-and-drop" was also invented at this time,
and the concept of using drag and drop to do file
manipulation ...
-----
<http://goo.gl/dmKn>
-----
However, the Apple work extended PARC's considerably, adding
manipulatable icons, a fixed drop-down menu bar and drag&drop
manipulation of objects in the file system for example.
-----
* meta-data associations with icons
<http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2005/05/gui.ars>
-----
Less visible but still important to the user interface was
the idea of "resource forks," which embedded information
about a file separately from the file itself, and the idea of
"creator classes" meant that each file could be assigned an
application that would launch when you double-clicked on that
file.
-----
* self-redrawing windows (and double buffering)
<http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2005/05/gui.ars>
-----
One critical advance from the Lisa team came from an Apple engineer who
was not a former PARC employee, but had seen the demonstration of Smalltalk.
He thought he had witnessed the Alto's ability to redraw portions of
obscured windows when a topmost window was moved: this was called "regions".
In fact, the Alto did not have this ability, but merely redrew the entire
window when the user selected it.
-----
Aqua introduced the idea of a GUI where every window was
double-buffered in memory, so that any redraws happen
off-screen and aren't visible
-----
* X to close a window
<http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2005/05/gui.ars>
-----
NeXTSTEP ... was the first to use the "X" symbol to indicate
a close window widget
-----
I left out some biggies... :
* Checkmarks next to menu items
* Keyboard shortcuts
(both noted at <http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2005/05/gui.ars>)
Also supporting many of the above: <http://goo.gl/93W5R>
-----
Drag-and- drop file manipulation came from the Mac group,
along with many other unique concepts: resources and
dual-fork files for storing layout and international
information apart from code; definition procedures;
drag-and-drop system extension and configuration; types and
creators for files; direct manipulation editing of document,
disk, and application names; redundant typed data for the
clipboard; multiple views of the file system; desk
accessories; and control panels, among others. The Lisa
group invented some fundamental concepts as well: pull down
menus, the imaging and windowing models based on QuickDraw,
the clipboard, and cleanly internationalizable software.
-----
Smalltalk didn't even have self-repairing windows - you had
to click in them to get them to repaint, and programs
couldn't draw into partially obscured windows. Bill Atkinson
did not know this, so he invented regions as the basis of
QuickDraw and the Window Manager so that he could quickly
draw in covered windows and repaint portions of windows
brought to the front.
-----
And the big picture you missed:
<http://goo.gl/93W5R>
-----
As you may be gathering, the difference between the Xerox
system architectures and Macintosh architecture is huge;
much bigger than the difference between the Mac and Windows
-----
You denied the above and claimed Xerox did them first... but you
could not find *any* support. And when asked what MS / Windows
introduced, you pointed to this list (from someone with no
evidence or support):
1. Multiple User Log-ins and fast user switching
2. Internet browser-style file browsing with forward/back
buttons
3. Window minimizing
4. Keyboard Shortcut to Application quitting (Ctrl+Alt+Del
vs. Apple+Option+Esc)
5. Right mouse click
6. Running applications shown at the bottom of the screen
7. "Desktop" folder in a "home" directory to reflect files
placed on the desktop
With some of those I do not know, but Lisa had window minimizing (to an
icon, not to a task bar or dock), Xerox had three buttons, and Lisa had a
desktop (though I do not know where the folder was... who cares?) Oh, and
maybe Windows had a *specific* keyboard shortcut - but it was on Apple's
machines where the concept itself came about.
So what did MS really innovate in terms of the desktop? Come on, where is
your list? And why not admit you were wrong about Xerox?
You never will admit you were wrong - you *hate* the fact I clearly know
more about GUI issues than you do. Oh well.
--
๐๐๐
were invented at Apple, you denied it and said "most" were made at Xerox.
When pressed, though, you could not find evidence of *any* of this being
true. Not one from the list. You even pointed to a resource which
referenced how I was right about it being from Apple. I gave you a chance
to back your claims and you ran... whining and snipping and crying that I
was not being fair to you. You figured I owed you an education - I should
show you evidence for the things I claimed - even though you were openly
lying to me.
I told you I have no such obligation. And I do not. You are lying and I
have no obligation to educate you. But, hey, I am a kind and good hearted
man... so I did some research *for you*. Here is what I found... pretty
much full support for my claims... and some added Apple innovations I left
out. Oh, and I make some comments about your MS innovations ... you were,
of course, wrong about those, too.
Oh, and of course you will snip this and run. You will not admit I am right
or even mostly right. You will just lie and try to keep the idea that you
have some knowledge of GUIs and their development when you are completely
ignorant of it. You prove that time and time again.
OK, the list I gave you with one or more references *and quotes* for each.
And links so you can see the full context.
* Pull down menus
<http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2005/05/gui.ars>
-----
The Lisa team ... developed the first pull-down menu bar
-----
<http://goo.gl/dmKn>
-----
Apple Lisa and Macintosh (and later, the Apple IIgs)
Drop-down menus were also introduced.
-----
* Double clicking
<http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2005/05/gui.ars>
-----
[with the Lisa] the concept of double-clicking was invented
-----
* Trash can (or the like)
* Graying out inactive items
<http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2005/05/gui.ars>
-----
The Lisa also ... added new conventions, such as a trash can
for dragging documents scheduled for deletion, and the idea
of "graying out" menu options if they were not currently
available.
-----
<http://goo.gl/dmKn> (for the trash... and other items)
-----
There were a set of desk accessories like a calculator,
notepad, and alarm clock that the user could place around the
screen as desired; and the user could delete files and
folders by dragging them to a trash-can icon on the screen.
-----
* Full file system in GUI (as icons)
* GUI based hierarchical folder structure
<http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2005/05/gui.ars>
-----
While SmallTalk and the Xerox Star had icons that represented
files, the Lisa interface was the first to have the idea that
icons could represent all files in the filesystem, which
could then be browsed through using a hierarchal directory
structure where each directory opened in a new window.
------
* drag and drop
<http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2005/05/gui.ars>
-----
The idea of "drag-and-drop" was also invented at this time,
and the concept of using drag and drop to do file
manipulation ...
-----
<http://goo.gl/dmKn>
-----
However, the Apple work extended PARC's considerably, adding
manipulatable icons, a fixed drop-down menu bar and drag&drop
manipulation of objects in the file system for example.
-----
* meta-data associations with icons
<http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2005/05/gui.ars>
-----
Less visible but still important to the user interface was
the idea of "resource forks," which embedded information
about a file separately from the file itself, and the idea of
"creator classes" meant that each file could be assigned an
application that would launch when you double-clicked on that
file.
-----
* self-redrawing windows (and double buffering)
<http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2005/05/gui.ars>
-----
One critical advance from the Lisa team came from an Apple engineer who
was not a former PARC employee, but had seen the demonstration of Smalltalk.
He thought he had witnessed the Alto's ability to redraw portions of
obscured windows when a topmost window was moved: this was called "regions".
In fact, the Alto did not have this ability, but merely redrew the entire
window when the user selected it.
-----
Aqua introduced the idea of a GUI where every window was
double-buffered in memory, so that any redraws happen
off-screen and aren't visible
-----
* X to close a window
<http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2005/05/gui.ars>
-----
NeXTSTEP ... was the first to use the "X" symbol to indicate
a close window widget
-----
I left out some biggies... :
* Checkmarks next to menu items
* Keyboard shortcuts
(both noted at <http://arstechnica.com/old/content/2005/05/gui.ars>)
Also supporting many of the above: <http://goo.gl/93W5R>
-----
Drag-and- drop file manipulation came from the Mac group,
along with many other unique concepts: resources and
dual-fork files for storing layout and international
information apart from code; definition procedures;
drag-and-drop system extension and configuration; types and
creators for files; direct manipulation editing of document,
disk, and application names; redundant typed data for the
clipboard; multiple views of the file system; desk
accessories; and control panels, among others. The Lisa
group invented some fundamental concepts as well: pull down
menus, the imaging and windowing models based on QuickDraw,
the clipboard, and cleanly internationalizable software.
-----
Smalltalk didn't even have self-repairing windows - you had
to click in them to get them to repaint, and programs
couldn't draw into partially obscured windows. Bill Atkinson
did not know this, so he invented regions as the basis of
QuickDraw and the Window Manager so that he could quickly
draw in covered windows and repaint portions of windows
brought to the front.
-----
And the big picture you missed:
<http://goo.gl/93W5R>
-----
As you may be gathering, the difference between the Xerox
system architectures and Macintosh architecture is huge;
much bigger than the difference between the Mac and Windows
-----
You denied the above and claimed Xerox did them first... but you
could not find *any* support. And when asked what MS / Windows
introduced, you pointed to this list (from someone with no
evidence or support):
1. Multiple User Log-ins and fast user switching
2. Internet browser-style file browsing with forward/back
buttons
3. Window minimizing
4. Keyboard Shortcut to Application quitting (Ctrl+Alt+Del
vs. Apple+Option+Esc)
5. Right mouse click
6. Running applications shown at the bottom of the screen
7. "Desktop" folder in a "home" directory to reflect files
placed on the desktop
With some of those I do not know, but Lisa had window minimizing (to an
icon, not to a task bar or dock), Xerox had three buttons, and Lisa had a
desktop (though I do not know where the folder was... who cares?) Oh, and
maybe Windows had a *specific* keyboard shortcut - but it was on Apple's
machines where the concept itself came about.
So what did MS really innovate in terms of the desktop? Come on, where is
your list? And why not admit you were wrong about Xerox?
You never will admit you were wrong - you *hate* the fact I clearly know
more about GUI issues than you do. Oh well.
--
๐๐๐
cc
Jan 27, 2012, 3:11:53โฏPM1/27/12
to
On Jan 27, 2:43ย pm, Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>
>
> So what did MS really innovate in terms of the desktop?
STAMPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
> So what did MS really innovate in terms of the desktop?
"Microsoft innovation - an oxymoron if ever I heard one!" - ray
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/e2f58df006221a10?hl=en&dmode=source
"Microsoft -- Innovative Imitation." - RonB
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/9913067d4e60188f?hl=en&dmode=source
"Once again, the only "innovation" Microsoft achieves is with greasy
wads of cash, used to assimilate /others'/ work, on the rare occasions
they bother paying for it at all, of course." - Homer
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/6a801143a576d7f1?hl=en&dmode=source
---
Here's a partial list from DFS (most apply to desktops, but not all)
which I believe he has posted multiple times in response to drivel
like your question above:
operating systems: MS-DOS, Windows 3x, 9x, NT/2000/2003, Vista/7
database: ODBC, MSDE and Jet db engines
office: first bundled/integrated office apps
programming/development: Visual Basic/VBA, ActiveX/COM, C#, Visual
Studio, PowerShell
multimedia: Media Center, Media Player, maybe the .wma/.wmv formats
Gaming: DirectX
Gaming consoles: XBox, XBox360
web: contributions to XML and SOAP
other: ClearType font technology
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/10f68b513a7f4229?hl=en&dmode=source
"many in COLA complain about MS not innovating." - Snit
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/13b890f06ffc0114?hl=en&dmode=source
Hilarious. When did you join the herd, Snit?
--
"For example, if someone wanted to push to make it legal for 80 year
old siblings to have sex I would not really care." - Snit
http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/218f298abc37e0b7?hl=en&dmode=source
Snit
Jan 27, 2012, 3:36:47โฏPM1/27/12
to
cc stated in post
0d2f42b7-fe45-4281...@w5g2000yqn.googlegroups.com on 1/27/12
1:11 PM:
> On Jan 27, 2:43ย pm, Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> So what did MS really innovate in terms of the desktop?
>
> STAMPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What the heck? Microsoft now, in your world, innovated the stampede.
That is nonsense.
OS what did MS innovate in terms of the desktop GUI? Anything you can think
of at all?
Anything you can support?
...
--
๐๐๐
0d2f42b7-fe45-4281...@w5g2000yqn.googlegroups.com on 1/27/12
1:11 PM:
> On Jan 27, 2:43ย pm, Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> So what did MS really innovate in terms of the desktop?
>
> STAMPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That is nonsense.
OS what did MS innovate in terms of the desktop GUI? Anything you can think
of at all?
Anything you can support?
...
--
๐๐๐
cc
Jan 27, 2012, 3:42:00โฏPM1/27/12
to
On Jan 27, 3:36ย pm, Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
> cc stated in post
> 0d2f42b7-fe45-4281-805e-37e717f76...@w5g2000yqn.googlegroups.com on 1/27/12
> cc stated in post
> 0d2f42b7-fe45-4281-805e-37e717f76...@w5g2000yqn.googlegroups.com on 1/27/12
> 1:11 PM:
>
> > On Jan 27, 2:43ย pm, Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>
> >> So what did MS really innovate in terms of the desktop?
>
> > STAMPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> What the heck? ย Microsoft now, in your world, innovated the stampede.
>
After reading my post, that is what you think I was saying?
>
> > On Jan 27, 2:43ย pm, Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>
> >> So what did MS really innovate in terms of the desktop?
>
> > STAMPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> What the heck? ย Microsoft now, in your world, innovated the stampede.
>
Snit
Jan 27, 2012, 3:49:12โฏPM1/27/12
to
cc stated in post
fcb2ea74-2fc7-4de8...@w5g2000yqn.googlegroups.com on 1/27/12
1:42 PM:
> On Jan 27, 3:36ย pm, Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>> cc stated in post
>> 0d2f42b7-fe45-4281-805e-37e717f76...@w5g2000yqn.googlegroups.com on 1/27/12
>> 1:11 PM:
>>
>>> On Jan 27, 2:43ย pm, Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> So what did MS really innovate in terms of the desktop?
>>
>>> STAMPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>> What the heck? ย Microsoft now, in your world, innovated the stampede.
>>
>
> After reading my post, that is what you think I was saying?
Yawn.
Seriously, why not just admit you were wrong. You were wrong about MS in
terms of GUIs. You were wrong about Apple in terms of GUIs. You were wrong
about Xerox in terms of GUIs.
But you will never admit to it, just as you will never admit you were wrong
to lie about your claims of me advocating things I never did.
You are wrong and you are a liar. But you are not man enough to admit to
it. But if you have nothing to add to the thread and just want to spew
nonsense and your emotionally charged BS you can talk to yourself. It is
clear you have *no* support for your claim about Xerox innovating the things
on the list and it is clear you cannot back your view that MS should be seen
as being big in the innovation of the desktop GUI. You cannot. Not that MS
has not had any innovations - they have - but you are completely clueless on
the topic.
--
๐๐๐
fcb2ea74-2fc7-4de8...@w5g2000yqn.googlegroups.com on 1/27/12
1:42 PM:
> On Jan 27, 3:36ย pm, Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>> cc stated in post
>> 0d2f42b7-fe45-4281-805e-37e717f76...@w5g2000yqn.googlegroups.com on 1/27/12
>> 1:11 PM:
>>
>>> On Jan 27, 2:43ย pm, Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> So what did MS really innovate in terms of the desktop?
>>
>>> STAMPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDDDDDEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>> What the heck? ย Microsoft now, in your world, innovated the stampede.
>>
>
> After reading my post, that is what you think I was saying?
Seriously, why not just admit you were wrong. You were wrong about MS in
terms of GUIs. You were wrong about Apple in terms of GUIs. You were wrong
about Xerox in terms of GUIs.
But you will never admit to it, just as you will never admit you were wrong
to lie about your claims of me advocating things I never did.
You are wrong and you are a liar. But you are not man enough to admit to
it. But if you have nothing to add to the thread and just want to spew
nonsense and your emotionally charged BS you can talk to yourself. It is
clear you have *no* support for your claim about Xerox innovating the things
on the list and it is clear you cannot back your view that MS should be seen
as being big in the innovation of the desktop GUI. You cannot. Not that MS
has not had any innovations - they have - but you are completely clueless on
the topic.
--
๐๐๐
7
Jan 28, 2012, 1:58:16โฏPM1/28/12
to
Snit wrote:
> O
Its all here http://ww.livecdlist.com and http://www.distrowatch.com
90% of the worlds major consumer electronics items are now
powered by Linux.
Linux is free to download OS. The engineers who donate all this
code for free ask only that you use it so they can make more money
from support work and extending the features of the software
on the back of that income.
> O
Its all here http://ww.livecdlist.com and http://www.distrowatch.com
90% of the worlds major consumer electronics items are now
powered by Linux.
Linux is free to download OS. The engineers who donate all this
code for free ask only that you use it so they can make more money
from support work and extending the features of the software
on the back of that income.
Snit
Jan 28, 2012, 2:14:17โฏPM1/28/12
to
7 stated in post hzXUq.811$zU3...@newsfe27.ams2 on 1/28/12 11:58 AM:
> Snit wrote:
>>>> <http://goo.gl/vepXI>
>>>> -----
>>>> The largest-ever Android malware campaign may have duped as
>>>> many as 5 million users into downloading infected apps from
>>>> Google's Android Market, Symantec said today.
>>>>
>>>> Android.Counterclank is a Trojan horse that when installed on
>>>> an Android smartphone collects a wide range of information,
>>>> including copies of the bookmarks and the handset maker. It
>>>> also modifies the browser's home page.
>>>> ...
>>>> Some of the 13 apps that Symantec identified as infected have
>>>> been on the Android Market for at least a month, according to
>>>> the revision dates posted on the e-store. Symantec, however,
>>>> discovered them only yesterday.
>>>> -----
>>>>
>>>> Google acts in a re-active and not a pro-active way to such threats. There
>>>> is a true danger to the user in their doing so.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Another day, another wave of Android malware. Time for the herd do circle
>>> the wagons, blame the user and claim that Linux is just the kernel.
>>>
>>> 5 million users - Android, the malware magnet Swiss cheese OS.
>>>
>> Of course they will make excuses... blame users... say it does not count
>> because it requires user intervention... etc.
>>
>> Meanwhile iOS users have run into *no* malware in the wild. None (not
>> counting those who jailbreak and seek out things from non-supported sources)
All of that is malware? What the...???
> 90% of the worlds major consumer electronics items are now
> powered by Linux.
So? What does that have to do with malware?
> Linux is free to download OS. The engineers who donate all this
> code for free ask only that you use it so they can make more money
> from support work and extending the features of the software
> on the back of that income.
So what? Not that I do not think Linux is great, but why are you babbling
off topic? You show no understanding of what you read.
--
๐๐๐
> Snit wrote:
>>>> <http://goo.gl/vepXI>
>>>> -----
>>>> The largest-ever Android malware campaign may have duped as
>>>> many as 5 million users into downloading infected apps from
>>>> Google's Android Market, Symantec said today.
>>>>
>>>> Android.Counterclank is a Trojan horse that when installed on
>>>> an Android smartphone collects a wide range of information,
>>>> including copies of the bookmarks and the handset maker. It
>>>> also modifies the browser's home page.
>>>> ...
>>>> Some of the 13 apps that Symantec identified as infected have
>>>> been on the Android Market for at least a month, according to
>>>> the revision dates posted on the e-store. Symantec, however,
>>>> discovered them only yesterday.
>>>> -----
>>>>
>>>> Google acts in a re-active and not a pro-active way to such threats. There
>>>> is a true danger to the user in their doing so.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Another day, another wave of Android malware. Time for the herd do circle
>>> the wagons, blame the user and claim that Linux is just the kernel.
>>>
>>> 5 million users - Android, the malware magnet Swiss cheese OS.
>>>
>> Of course they will make excuses... blame users... say it does not count
>> because it requires user intervention... etc.
>>
>> Meanwhile iOS users have run into *no* malware in the wild. None (not
>> counting those who jailbreak and seek out things from non-supported sources)
All of that is malware? What the...???
> 90% of the worlds major consumer electronics items are now
> powered by Linux.
> Linux is free to download OS. The engineers who donate all this
> code for free ask only that you use it so they can make more money
> from support work and extending the features of the software
> on the back of that income.
off topic? You show no understanding of what you read.
--
๐๐๐
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