Cakewalk Sonar Supports Vista's Advanced Multimedia Features.
flatfish+++
So where is Linux?
In the crapper as usual :(
flatfish+++
> In news:CAJvh.14$s6...@newsfe10.lga the killer robot flatfish+++
> <flat...@linuxmail.org> grabbed the controls of the spaceship
> cakewalk.audio and pressed these buttons...
>
>> http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/01/19/namm-cakewalk-sonar-62-adds-vi
>> sta-support-midi-features/
>>
>> So where is Linux?
>>
>> In the crapper as usual :(
>
> They aren't supporting the Amiga either!!!
Great box the Amiga was!!
I had a friend who was using one with a Toaster up until a couple of years
ago.
It was years ahead of the IBM PC at the time.
Sadly it was perceived as a *toy* and didn't catch on as well as it could
have.
yttrx
Except that I'm actually running Sonar 6.2 on Vista RIGHT NOW, and
I can tell by the tone of your voice that you're not.
Yup, it does "x-ray". Which every application running under Beryl
does.
Other than that, its unstable as fuck under Vista and I absolutely
won't use it.
Even if it wasn't unstable as fuck under Vista, my requirements
necessitate software that's not quite so "prosumer".
-----yttrx
yttrx
Sounds familiar. I'll bet you trashed amigas every chance you got as well.
-----yttrx
Max Arwood
about this. I don't know why they keep ignoring me.
Max Arwood
"flatfish+++" <flat...@linuxmail.org> wrote in message
news:CAJvh.14$s6...@newsfe10.lga...
Major Ursa
> Even if it wasn't unstable as fuck under Vista, my requirements
> necessitate software that's not quite so "prosumer".
My feelings exactly. Strange how they again and again fall in the
mickey-mouse attitude.
Anyway, from the article:
"Vista support: SONAR is the first DAW that fully supports both the
32-bit and 64-bit Vista, but this is more than just basic
compatibility. By supporting the new WaveRT driver and MMCSS
(Multimedia Class Scheduler Service), SONAR should run more
smoothly with more hardware at lower latencies. The full
explanation of why is complex, so that will have to wait for
another article. I hope (and fully expect) we will see other
developers follow suit over the coming months as users migrate to
Vista. As with x64 XP, the 64-bit edition gets extra CPU
performance and greater RAM access (128 GB on Vista x64)."
Can anyone explain what exactly is the benefit of this MCSS? Isn't
it just another new standard to waal in the client and give him
less choice?
Ursa..
John Bailo
> By supporting the new WaveRT driver and MMCSS
> (Multimedia Class Scheduler Service), SONAR should run more
> smoothly with more hardware at lower latencies. The full
> explanation of why is complex, so that will have to wait for
> another article. I hope (and fully expect) we will see other
> developers follow suit over the coming months as users migrate to
> Vista. As with x64 XP, the 64-bit edition gets extra CPU
> performance and greater RAM access (128 GB on Vista x64)."
>
> Can anyone explain what exactly is the benefit of this MCSS? Isn't
> it just another new standard to waal in the client and give him
> less choice?
For applications that are just meant to run hardware, there is no reason
not to make it open source. The customers will be more than savvy
enough to make changes and compile their own code.
flatfish+++
> On Tuesday 30 January 2007 17:13 yttrx wrote:
>
>> Even if it wasn't unstable as fuck under Vista, my requirements
>> necessitate software that's not quite so "prosumer".
>
> My feelings exactly. Strange how they again and again fall in the
> mickey-mouse attitude.
You mean professional quality multimedia software that actually works?
I think most people consider that a positive.
So tell me, what does Linux bring to the table to compete with
Sonar/Nuendo/Protools/Logic/etc...
Ardour?
You can't be serious....
> Anyway, from the article:
> "Vista support: SONAR is the first DAW that fully supports both the
> 32-bit and 64-bit Vista, but this is more than just basic
> compatibility. By supporting the new WaveRT driver and MMCSS
> (Multimedia Class Scheduler Service), SONAR should run more
> smoothly with more hardware at lower latencies. The full
> explanation of why is complex, so that will have to wait for
> another article. I hope (and fully expect) we will see other
> developers follow suit over the coming months as users migrate to
> Vista. As with x64 XP, the 64-bit edition gets extra CPU
> performance and greater RAM access (128 GB on Vista x64)."
>
> Can anyone explain what exactly is the benefit of this MCSS? Isn't
> it just another new standard to waal in the client and give him
> less choice?
>
> Ursa..
You'll never find the answer in comp.os.linux.advocacy.
You will get 100 atta-boys though for posting an anti Microsoft article.
Why do you Linux freaks fear Vista so much?
Out of the hundreds of News articles that get spewed to
comp.os.linux.advocacy each day courtesey of Roy Schestowitz, the vast
majority are Vista/Microsoft hate articles and very few are Linux advocacy
articles.
So why do you fell threatened by Vista?
flatfish+++
Spoken like a true Linux advocate John!
John Bailo
It's true. In most places that would use a CAD application or
technical metering application, there is someone who has c knowledge
enough that they could benefit from open source versions of the
application software designed to run on specialized hardware.
yttrx
>
>> On Tuesday 30 January 2007 17:13 yttrx wrote:
>>
>>> Even if it wasn't unstable as fuck under Vista, my requirements
>>> necessitate software that's not quite so "prosumer".
>>
>> My feelings exactly. Strange how they again and again fall in the
>> mickey-mouse attitude.
>
> You mean professional quality multimedia software that actually works?
> I think most people consider that a positive.
>
Professional quality? If you count "professional" as some old man
in his basement on long island stringing mp3s of himself on his
old hammond organ together to sell to area used car lots as jingles,
ok. But if you mean professional as in sound-engineer working in
a studio that no one laughs at...uhh...no.
-----yttrx
flatfish+++
I notice you failed to answer the question so I will ask again:
So exactly what are you doing wrong to make Sonar 6.2 unstable on your
system?
And while you are at it, specifically what problems have you encountered
and have you filed bug reports with Cakewalk?
yttrx
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:39:32 +0000, yttrx wrote:
>
>> In comp.os.linux.advocacy flatfish+++ <flat...@linuxmail.org> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 18:04:08 +0100, Major Ursa wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tuesday 30 January 2007 17:13 yttrx wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Even if it wasn't unstable as fuck under Vista, my requirements
>>>>> necessitate software that's not quite so "prosumer".
>>>>
>>>> My feelings exactly. Strange how they again and again fall in the
>>>> mickey-mouse attitude.
>>>
>>> You mean professional quality multimedia software that actually works?
>>> I think most people consider that a positive.
>>>
>>
>> Professional quality? If you count "professional" as some old man
>> in his basement on long island stringing mp3s of himself on his
>> old hammond organ together to sell to area used car lots as jingles,
>> ok. But if you mean professional as in sound-engineer working in
>> a studio that no one laughs at...uhh...no.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----yttrx
>
> I notice you failed to answer the question so I will ask again:
>
> So exactly what are you doing wrong to make Sonar 6.2 unstable on your
> system?
>
Sweetheart, I'm not doing anything wrong besides expecting it to run without
crashing.
> And while you are at it, specifically what problems have you encountered
> and have you filed bug reports with Cakewalk?
>
It freezes. It stutters. It causes massive system slowdowns. There seems
to be a pretty major memory leak. Once it managed to take the entire system
down with it (and I'm sure if I didnt already have it set to reboot on
panic, I would have seen what the Vista bluescreen looks like), and no,
I haven't filed bug reports. Why should I file bug reports? It's closed
source, right? They're paying their programmers what they're worth,
right? So they've got talent, right? So they should already know about
all these problems and have fixed them by now, right? Because they'd never
release a beta-class revision on the awaiting public like those open source
assholes, now would they, right?
Right.
-----yttrx
flatfish+++
So you have nothing specific.
I figured as much.
As for filing bug reports, you just paid $500.00 or so for software that
according to you does not work properly.
Would it not be in your best interest to get it fixed?
yttrx
It was a free upgrade as part of a deal for services rendered, and its
a piece of shit.
And, are you retarded or just incompetent? You wouldn't know good sound
engineering tools if you were teabagging them. You hadn't even HEARD of
Genelec for gods sake.
-----yttrx
Tim Smith
> Great box the Amiga was!! I had a friend who was using one with a
> Toaster up until a couple of years ago. It was years ahead of the IBM
> PC at the time. Sadly it was perceived as a *toy* and didn't catch on
> as well as it could have.
Initially, in the days when the Amiga, the Atari ST, and the Mac were
all new, it looked like a toy. The Amiga (and the ST) had color, which
the Mac did not have at the time. Used well, that could have been a
big advantage.
But first impressions mean a lot, and the first impression of the Amiga
in the store was not good. The Mac next to it, although black & white,
looked nice. On the Amiga, everything was colored, but the colors
didn't go well together. It looked like they just gave everything a
color because they could, rather than figuring out where color would
actually improve things. After a few minutes in the store, with that
distracting, almost painful, color assault, it was hard to see yourself
spending hours in front of an Amiga.
Compare to when the first color Macs came out a bit later. On those,
the interface stayed mostly black & white. Color was used sparingly, in
places where it would help with the interface.
We might see a similar thing happen with 3D effects in the desktop. I
predict that the 3D desktop system that will end up the most successful
on Linux will be the one that shows the most restraint, and puts the
most thought into where 3D effects enhance the user experience, rather
than just enhance the "wow" factor.
Michael
flatfish+++
So you have an illegal copy of Sonar...
It figures.
> And, are you retarded or just incompetent? You wouldn't know good sound
> engineering tools if you were teabagging them. You hadn't even HEARD of
> Genelec for gods sake.
Hadn't heard of Genelec?
Are you kidding me?
Exactly where did I say that?
Looks like the old Linux advocate discredit the poster routine.
I just happen to think that the 1029's, the models you are using, are not
the greatest sound models in the Genelec line.
If they work for you that's fine.
>
>
>
> -----yttrx
Here In Oregon
> And, are you retarded or just incompetent? You wouldn't know good sound
> engineering tools if you were teabagging them. You hadn't even HEARD of
> Genelec for gods sake.
> -----yttrx
First anybody buying in to a new full blown operating system and a new Daw
with a complex computer with all of its components and expects it to work
right out of the box doesn't seem very bright to me. Calling this person
retarded and incompetent and then exporting all kinds of assumptions on them
makes me think you are a troll.
>It was a free upgrade as part of a deal for services rendered, and its a
>piece of shit.
Yeah,... a free upgrade for your services rendered. I am laughing out loud.
Long time before I upgrade to VISTA (a far-reaching mental view).
It was nice of you to call that person sweetheart though.
Harry Lavo
"Here In Oregon" <H...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:d66dnajpe_pcCSLY...@comcast.com...
>
>snip<
>
> Long time before I upgrade to VISTA (a far-reaching mental view).
>snip<
Along about the time they release SP2 I'll consider it.
flatfish+++
That is always prudent advice.
Maverick
I wonder if CakeWalk makes a version for OS X?
yttrx
>
>> And, are you retarded or just incompetent? You wouldn't know good sound
>> engineering tools if you were teabagging them. You hadn't even HEARD of
>> Genelec for gods sake.
>> -----yttrx
>
> First anybody buying in to a new full blown operating system and a new Daw
> with a complex computer with all of its components and expects it to work
> right out of the box doesn't seem very bright to me. Calling this person
> retarded and incompetent and then exporting all kinds of assumptions on them
> makes me think you are a troll.
>
What the fuck are you talking about? Flatfish has been posting to COLA
(check your headers) for years, and I know him to be both incompetent AND
a retard. I was being nice. You're the new kid here, bub.
>>It was a free upgrade as part of a deal for services rendered, and its a
>>piece of shit.
>
> Yeah,... a free upgrade for your services rendered. I am laughing out loud.
>
Why?
> Long time before I upgrade to VISTA (a far-reaching mental view).
>
My Vista install is an experiment and nothing more. I get CDs of software
in the mail quarterly from Microsoft, including operating systems, because
my company is a Microsoft partner. So I installed it when it came. You
missed the post about that.
-----yttrx
yttrx
Yup, I have a few illegal copies of Sonar, and a few legal ones. The one
I'm referring to is a legal one of course.
>
>> And, are you retarded or just incompetent? You wouldn't know good sound
>> engineering tools if you were teabagging them. You hadn't even HEARD of
>> Genelec for gods sake.
>
> Hadn't heard of Genelec?
> Are you kidding me?
>
> Exactly where did I say that?
>
When I brought up the fact that I own a set and you said you hadn't heard
of them. Did you want to deny it now?
> Looks like the old Linux advocate discredit the poster routine.
>
> I just happen to think that the 1029's, the models you are using, are not
> the greatest sound models in the Genelec line.
>
I'm not using 1029's. Thanks for playing, old man.
-----yttrx
yttrx
>
>> It was a free upgrade as part of a deal for services rendered, and its
>> a piece of shit.
>
>
Uh, no. Why wouldn't I just lie and say I bought it if it was a warez
copy of sonar? What the hell is the matter with you?
-----yttrx
flatfish+++
>
> What the fuck are you talking about? Flatfish has been posting to COLA
> (check your headers) for years, and I know him to be both incompetent AND
> a retard. I was being nice. You're the new kid here, bub.
Uhh.
Depends upon what group you are talking about.
>>>It was a free upgrade as part of a deal for services rendered, and its a
>>>piece of shit.
>>
>> Yeah,... a free upgrade for your services rendered. I am laughing out loud.
>>
>
> Why?
Because it's funny.
>> Long time before I upgrade to VISTA (a far-reaching mental view).
>>
>
> My Vista install is an experiment and nothing more. I get CDs of software
> in the mail quarterly from Microsoft, including operating systems, because
> my company is a Microsoft partner. So I installed it when it came. You
> missed the post about that.
Maybe for Microsoft Vista, but you said you got Cakewalk Sonar for free.
Nice attempt at a weasel though.
Let's see what we have here:
You claim Sonar 6.2 is buggy under Vista.
You refuse to file bug reports and when asked why you would not wish to
have your $500.00 piece of software fixed you claim you received it for
"services rendered".
Then you go starting the discredit routine claiming I never heard of
Genelec, which is completely untrue.
So what's wrong with this picture?
>
> -----yttrx
yttrx
>
>>
>> What the fuck are you talking about? Flatfish has been posting to COLA
>> (check your headers) for years, and I know him to be both incompetent AND
>> a retard. I was being nice. You're the new kid here, bub.
>
> Uhh.
> Depends upon what group you are talking about.
>
I SAID "COLA", IDIOT.
>>>>It was a free upgrade as part of a deal for services rendered, and its a
>>>>piece of shit.
>>>
>>> Yeah,... a free upgrade for your services rendered. I am laughing out loud.
>>>
>>
>> Why?
>
> Because it's funny.
>
Why is that?
>
>>> Long time before I upgrade to VISTA (a far-reaching mental view).
>>>
>>
>> My Vista install is an experiment and nothing more. I get CDs of software
>> in the mail quarterly from Microsoft, including operating systems, because
>> my company is a Microsoft partner. So I installed it when it came. You
>> missed the post about that.
>
> Maybe for Microsoft Vista, but you said you got Cakewalk Sonar for free.
>
Yup, one license.
> Nice attempt at a weasel though.
>
I made no attempt to weasel.
> Let's see what we have here:
>
> You claim Sonar 6.2 is buggy under Vista.
> You refuse to file bug reports and when asked why you would not wish to
> have your $500.00 piece of software fixed you claim you received it for
> "services rendered".
>
Right, so why would I give a shit? I tend to avoid Sonar anyway, so what
the fuck do I care if its shit? I just wanted to correct your stupidity.
And BTW moron, the services werent rendered to the company that WRITES
Sonar, but to a reseller here in NYC, IDIOT.
> Then you go starting the discredit routine claiming I never heard of
> Genelec, which is completely untrue.
>
I said you HAD never heard of genelec---that is, before I mentioned it
last year. That's pretty odd for someone who's evidently so into pro
audio gear.
> So what's wrong with this picture?
>
I dont know...youre an idiot?
-----yttrx
Nedd Ludd
You are clearly ignorant of the real world.
I can assure you that the last thing any place that has uses a CAD software
wants to do is go poking around the source code to resolve any problem. The
steps to fixing problems start by filing a bug report and letting the
programmers assess the problem. If the behavior is truly a bug then it'll
get patched and distributed in little time. It the behavior is just not to
your liking but 'working as designed' then any changes you make to the
source code will create a forked version that needs to be maintained through
all eternity.
Typically the C programmers at CAD shops have their hands full getting data
from here http://www.3ds.com/products-solutions/solidworks/overview/ to here
http://www.ugs.com/products/teamcenter/ to here
http://www.righthemisphere.com/products/dp3d/Deep3D_UV/index.html in a
consistent, usable manor.
Time spent debugging CAD source code is time wasted.
flatfish+++
> Yup, I have a few illegal copies of Sonar, and a few legal ones. The one
> I'm referring to is a legal one of course.
Sure it is.
I don't believe for a second that you are running Vista, legally anyhow
and now that you have admitted to pirating Cakewalk Sonar, well that just
confirms it.
>>> And, are you retarded or just incompetent? You wouldn't know good
>>> sound engineering tools if you were teabagging them. You hadn't even
>>> HEARD of Genelec for gods sake.
>>
>> Hadn't heard of Genelec?
>> Are you kidding me?
>>
>> Exactly where did I say that?
>>
>>
> When I brought up the fact that I own a set and you said you hadn't
> heard of them. Did you want to deny it now?
Never heard of Genelec?
URL please.
>> Looks like the old Linux advocate discredit the poster routine.
>>
>> I just happen to think that the 1029's, the models you are using, are not
>> the greatest sound models in the Genelec line.
>>
>
> I'm not using 1029's. Thanks for playing, old man.
You were before you finally got smart and upgraded to the 8040s.
>
>
>
> -----yttrx
yttrx
>
>
>> Yup, I have a few illegal copies of Sonar, and a few legal ones. The one
>> I'm referring to is a legal one of course.
>
> Sure it is.
> I don't believe for a second that you are running Vista, legally anyhow
> and now that you have admitted to pirating Cakewalk Sonar, well that just
> confirms it.
>
>>>> And, are you retarded or just incompetent? You wouldn't know good
>>>> sound engineering tools if you were teabagging them. You hadn't even
>>>> HEARD of Genelec for gods sake.
>>>
>>> Hadn't heard of Genelec?
>>> Are you kidding me?
>>>
>>> Exactly where did I say that?
>>>
>>>
>> When I brought up the fact that I own a set and you said you hadn't
>> heard of them. Did you want to deny it now?
>
> Never heard of Genelec?
>
> URL please.
>
Denial ain't just a river in egypt...isnt that what they say at your
meetings? If you were charitable, you'd get better coffee for everyone.
>
>
>>> Looks like the old Linux advocate discredit the poster routine.
>>>
>>> I just happen to think that the 1029's, the models you are using, are not
>>> the greatest sound models in the Genelec line.
>>>
>>
>> I'm not using 1029's. Thanks for playing, old man.
>
> You were before you finally got smart and upgraded to the 8040s.
>
Uh huh. You lose.
-----yttrx
kitekrazy
> I'm still wanting Commodore 64 support. I have written them dz's of eamils
> about this. I don't know why they keep ignoring me.
> Max Arwood
>
So it was you using a different name poasting that Creative FM synth crap.
Here In Oregon
"yttrx" <yt...@yttrx.net> wrote in message
news:%%Nvh.4413$Yy1....@textfe.usenetserver.com...
>You're the new kid here, bub.
Your assumptions really do crack me up. See,... this is when you give a guy
like Ted a whole stream of flammable liquid for his flamethrower especially
with issues regarding the use of pseudonyms. You can say anything you want
and we don't know if anything you say is true,.... yttrx. I can find you
but most people do not have the resources to do this.
Personally for me I have to go incognito because my real name is the only
one in the international world as far as I know and any kook could find me
and I am just beginning to address the paparazzi issue. I will come out of
the closet one day soon when I have a small private security force.
Regarding this new kid comment. You made my day! Made me feel young again
like the time that little boy checker at the grocery store attempted to card
me around ten years ago. I said may God bless you,... and your heart and
soul, but first prove to me that your old enough to sell a beer. He blushed
and said never mind. ;)
I go back with this newsgroup probably long before you (but again no
assumptions here). Over a decade though and maybe just maybe I used to use
my real name.
yttrx
> news:%%Nvh.4413$Yy1....@textfe.usenetserver.com...
>
>>You're the new kid here, bub.
>
> Your assumptions really do crack me up. See,... this is when you give a guy
> like Ted a whole stream of flammable liquid for his flamethrower especially
> with issues regarding the use of pseudonyms. You can say anything you want
> and we don't know if anything you say is true,.... yttrx. I can find you
> but most people do not have the resources to do this.
>
You can?
Tell me my apartment number, smart guy.
And besides, I'm really pretty far from incognito.
> Personally for me I have to go incognito because my real name is the only
> one in the international world as far as I know and any kook could find me
> and I am just beginning to address the paparazzi issue. I will come out of
> the closet one day soon when I have a small private security force.
>
OMG, you're englebert humperdink.
> Regarding this new kid comment. You made my day! Made me feel young again
> like the time that little boy checker at the grocery store attempted to card
> me around ten years ago. I said may God bless you,... and your heart and
> soul, but first prove to me that your old enough to sell a beer. He blushed
> and said never mind. ;)
>
> I go back with this newsgroup probably long before you (but again no
> assumptions here). Over a decade though and maybe just maybe I used to use
> my real name.
>
Yeah, I'm not really terribly interested in who you are. And I wasnt talking
about YOUR newsgroup, I was talking about MINE, bitch...remember where I typed
COLA up there? CHECK THE HEADERS, SMARTGUY! comp.os.linux.advocacy.
-----yttrx
yttrx
> In news:u8idnVvhp8EXXiLY...@comcast.com the killer robot "Here
> In Oregon" <H...@nospam.net> grabbed the controls of the spaceship
> cakewalk.audio and pressed these buttons...
>
>> I go back with this newsgroup probably long before you
>
>
> This thread is crosspoasted, but rather fun to watch anyway. ;)
>
> Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,cakewalk.audio,rec.audio.pro
>
Thats telling him. Take that, mr. humperdink.
-----yttrx
Kier
> http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/01/19/namm-cakewalk-sonar-62-adds-vista-support-midi-features/
>
> So where is Linux?
>
> In the crapper as usual :(
Take it up with Cakewalk, then.
--
Kier
Romeo Rondeau
You guys should change the name of your newsgroup from COLA to KOOL-AID :-)
The Ghost In The Machine
<yt...@yttrx.net>
wrote
on Tue, 30 Jan 2007 20:53:18 GMT
<2fOvh.4417$Yy1....@textfe.usenetserver.com>:
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy flatfish+++ <flat...@linuxmail.org> wrote:
>> On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 20:37:15 +0000, yttrx wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> What the fuck are you talking about? Flatfish has been posting to COLA
>>> (check your headers) for years, and I know him to be both incompetent AND
>>> a retard. I was being nice. You're the new kid here, bub.
>>
>> Uhh.
>> Depends upon what group you are talking about.
>>
>
> I SAID "COLA", IDIOT.
Well, yeah, but if you twist the L a bit counterclockwise
and lengthen the now-upward stroke, one gets COVA, which
is obviously an abbreviation for
comp.os.vista.advocacy
:-)
(Not to be confused with Covad, which is a DSL intermediary. :-)
And a more likely name is comp.os.ms-windows.vista anyway.
Or maybe alt.windows.vista.die.kill.choke.
It turns out "microsoft.public.windows.vista.*" exists as
a hierarchy, which is probably where glowing reviews for
Microsoft Windows Vista Ultimate Edition(tm) with Aero
should end up...those that don't quite make it into the
proverbial bit bucket.)
[rest snipped]
--
#191, ewi...@earthlink.net
Useless C++ Programming Idea #23291:
void f(item *p) { if(p != 0) delete p; }
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
MajorUrsa
>>Major Ursa wrote:
>>>Can anyone explain what exactly is the benefit of this MCSS? Isn't
>>>it just another new standard to waal in the client and give him
>>>less choice?
So nobody knows? It's just another hype I think. If my ASIO can get to
1.5 msecs , what could any driver structure improve on that? It's the
hardware path delay already!
Ursa..
yttrx
> yt...@yttrx.net (yttrx) grabbed the controls of the spaceship
>
>
>
I didnt know englebert humperdink played the guitar.
-----yttrx
flatfish+++
> In news:45bfecc8$0$339$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl the killer robot MajorUrsa
> <majo...@iname.com> grabbed the controls of the spaceship
> cakewalk.audio and pressed these buttons...
>
> I'm running 1.5ms through entire projects using WDM with M-Audio cards,
> so I'm not at all excited about some new driver model.
Same here, but I prefer the asio drivers albeit I'm getting about 2.5ms
with them.
Romeo Rondeau
Your soundcard doesn't have Direct Monitoring?
Max Arwood
@1.5 ms.
Max Arwood
"Romeo Rondeau" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:byUvh.513$gj4...@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net...
Arny Krueger
news:45bf7a89$0$327$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl
> On Tuesday 30 January 2007 17:13 yttrx wrote:
>
>> Even if it wasn't unstable as fuck under Vista, my
>> requirements necessitate software that's not quite so
>> "prosumer".
>
> My feelings exactly. Strange how they again and again
> fall in the mickey-mouse attitude.
>
> "Vista support: SONAR is the first DAW that fully
> supports both the 32-bit and 64-bit Vista, but this is
> more than just basic compatibility. By supporting the new
> WaveRT driver and MMCSS (Multimedia Class Scheduler
> Service), SONAR should run more smoothly with more
> hardware at lower latencies. The full explanation of why
> is complex, so that will have to wait for another
> article. I hope (and fully expect) we will see other
> developers follow suit over the coming months as users
> migrate to Vista. As with x64 XP, the 64-bit edition gets
> extra CPU performance and greater RAM access (128 GB on
> Vista x64)."
>
> Can anyone explain what exactly is the benefit of this
> MCSS? Isn't it just another new standard to waal in the
> client and give him less choice?
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/technetmag/issues/2007/02/VistaKernel/default.aspx
"MMCSS, which is implemented in the Svchostprocess, has a
priority-management thread that runs at priority 27. (Thread priorities in
Windows range from 0 to 31. with higher numbered priorities getting more
CPU)) This thread boosts the priority of registered multimedia threads into
the range associated with the Scheduling Category value of their task's
registry key as listed in Figure 4. In Windows, thread priorities 16 and
higher are in the real-time priority range and higher than all other threads
on a system (with the exception of the kernel's Memory Manager worker
threads, which run at priorities 28 and 29). Only administrative accounts,
like the Local System account in which MMCSS executes, have the Increase
Priority privilege that's required to set real-time thread priorities.
"When you play an audio file, Windows Media Player registers Audio task
threads, and when you play a video, it registers Playback task threads. The
MMCSS service boosts all threads that have indicated that they are
delivering a stream at the same time when they are running in the process
that owns the foreground window and when they have the BackgroundOnly value
set to True in their task's definition key."
"You can witness the thread boosting that the MMCSS service applies to
Windows Media Player threads by playing a video or audio clip, running the
Performance Monitor, setting the graph scale to 31 (the highest Windows
thread priority), and adding the Priority Current counter for all instances
of the Windows Media Player (Wmplayer.exe) thread objects to the display.
One or more threads will run at priority 21."
It's not clear from this that this does anything at all for recording.
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa474703.aspx
"The WaveRT port driver has performance advantages over both the WavePci and
the WaveCyclic port drivers. WaveRT avoids any need for intervention by the
miniport driver in the flow of audio data between the application and the
audio hardware. This feature is particularly important for clients running
Windows Vista that use real-time threads to reduce audio-stream latencies.
In contrast, while streaming audio data, a WaveCyclic miniport driver must
copy data, and a WavePci miniport driver must continually acquire and
release mappings that contain audio data.
"A WaveRT miniport driver is similar in complexity to a WaveCyclic miniport
driver. Unlike WavePci and WaveCyclic miniport drivers, a WaveRT miniport
driver is responsible for allocating the physical memory pages that comprise
the audio buffer used by the application. By controlling buffer allocation,
the miniport driver can compensate for any limitations in its DMA hardware.
If the device cannot perform scatter/gather DMA transfers, the driver can
allocate a contiguous block of physical memory for the buffer. If the device
cannot access all of physical memory, the driver can allocate the buffer
from the physical memory that it can access.
"Thus, existing audio hardware with these kinds of limitations can use the
WaveRT port driver. However, new "WaveRT-compatible audio hardware should be
designed to support scatter/gather DMA transfers, addressing that is at
least 32-bit, and a wall clock register and DMA position registers that can
be mapped to user-mode virtual memory. For more information, see the white
paper titled A Wave Port Driver for Real-Time Audio Streaming on the audio
technology page on the WHDC Web site.
"The WaveRT port driver is available beginning in Windows Vista."
yttrx
Whats the matter, flatfish? You didnt want to continue with me after
I exposed your lies and made you look like a jackass?
-----yttrx
yttrx
Romeo Rondeau
> I use direct monitoring for most stuff, but will occasionally use input
> monitoring if I need to hear effects as the track is being recorded.
> Having latency at 1.5ms does make the V-Drums to DFHS time real tight.
I'm sure it does. You know it's real funny that we start to nit-pick
about these ridiculously short latency times when a hardware MIDI sound
module will have an average trigger latency of 10ms or so and up to 2ms
of slop.
Major Ursa
Exactly my point So what's the benefit of the new Vista driver-tree
that Sonar supposedly supports?
Ursa..
yttrx
Romeo Rondeau
They say it take less CPU overhead, who knows. RME has have 0% overhead
with ASIO drivers from day one, but they do it by putting part of the
driver on the card itself. Less CPU overhead would translate to being
able to use more plug-ins (like we need more processing on recordings as
it is.) I'm not sure how efficient Sonar is, I stopped using Cakewalk
years ago in favor of Nuendo. Of course, the whole thing could just mean
"hey, our DAW actually runs on Vista!"
Romeo Rondeau
Here's a white paper from Microsoft on the WaveRT driver model.
http://download.microsoft.com/download/9/c/5/9c5b2167-8017-4bae-9fde-d599bac8184a/WaveRTport.doc
Interesting...
MajorUrsa
> http://createdigitalmusic.com/2007/01/19/namm-cakewalk-sonar-62-adds-vista-support-midi-features/
>
> So where is Linux?
>
> In the crapper as usual :(
This is funny. This whole thread about the so called "Advanced
Multimedia Features" of Vista, and no-one, I mean nobody at all, is able
to indicate the benefits of these 'features', or what they are, for that
matter.
If there would be any single reason for us musmakers to migrate it is
this, isn't it. I at least cannot find any reason to do so, not that I'm
looking very hard. As far as I can see Vista has only disadvantages for us.
Imagine running Sonar on a quadcore in which 1 complete core is busy
with running the OS. What a waste. On the machine I would want the OS
doesn othing but provide the multitasking, the drivers, the filesystem
and a means to start Sonar. XP is too much already, why Vista then?
Ursa..
Roy Schestowitz
>
> It freezes. It stutters. It causes massive system slowdowns. There
> seems to be a pretty major memory leak. Once it managed to take the entire
Ask your system administrator to have a look. Maybe you are too new to
install it properly.
Romeo Rondeau
The information is out there, why don't you look for it?
Laurence Payne
<vdrumsYourHe...@cox.net> wrote:
>Vista looks like the OS on a Mac, what more could you want?
I DO hope you can turn that off :-)
Major Ursa
>
> Vista looks like the OS on a Mac, what more could you want?
Lol. I may look like it but it certainly isn't. Mac OS-X is a
fullfledged Unix OS, almost by definition the opposite of XP or
Vistin terms of reliability and efficiency. I think the PC that is
hardly able to run Vista can run 10 OS-x's with ease. Vista is a
monster.
Besides looks dont count because I only run Sonar.
Ursa..
Major Ursa
>
> The information is out there, why don't you look for it?
You're right of course, but with so much talk and hype about
migrating you would think at least SOMEONE would be able to list
the specifics. Not so, apparently. More signs of a hype to me.
Ok, from http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms684247.aspx
"The Multimedia Class Scheduler service (MMCSS) enables multimedia
applications to ensure that their time-sensitive processing
receives prioritized access to CPU resources. This service enables
multimedia applications to utilize as much of the CPU as possible
without denying CPU resources to lower-priority applications.
MMCSS uses information stored in the registry to identify supported
tasks and determine the relative priority of threads performing
these tasks. Each thread that is performing work related to a
particular task calls the AvSetMmMaxThreadCharacteristics or
AvSetMmThreadCharacteristics function to inform MMCSS that it is
working on that task."
I see notjing new here, any OS must have thread priorities. I'd
think that even XP has it, although better hidden.
The one reason I can think of for this 'feature' that Vista is such
a resource hog that it wouldn't, with default priorities, be able
to run any of the demanding stuff we all use. This would be a
typical M$ marketing stunt, to proclaim a remedy for a flaw as a
feature.
For more more reasons NOT to migrate.
Ursa..
Laurence Payne
wrote:
>"The Multimedia Class Scheduler service (MMCSS) enables multimedia
>applications to ensure that their time-sensitive processing
>receives prioritized access to CPU resources. This service enables
>multimedia applications to utilize as much of the CPU as possible
>without denying CPU resources to lower-priority applications.
But that's wonderful! Vista gives more resources to multimedia
applications without reducing resources elsewhere! You wouldn't think
it possible, but they've done it!
Reminds me of the scare adverts. that tell you nothing you have done,
nowhere you have been on your computer is ever completely erased.
They've obviously discovered a way to store infinite amounts of data
on a finite disk. One 40GB drive is all we'll need for a lifetime's
data storage!
flatfish+++
Of course it does (Delta 1010 ,original model)
Softsynths, The Grand, Ivory, stuff like that.
HTH
flatfish+++
I was thinking the same thing...
yttrx
yttrx
No you weren't, liar. You were wondering what the hell they were
talking about. Don't you have a jingle to go write for Ed's Used
Toyota?
-----yttrx
Rick Paul
news:45bfecc8$0$339$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
>>>Major Ursa wrote:
>>>>Can anyone explain what exactly is the benefit of this MCSS? Isn't
>>>>it just another new standard to waal in the client and give him
>>>>less choice?
>
> So nobody knows? It's just another hype I think. If my ASIO can get to 1.5
> msecs , what could any driver structure improve on that? It's the hardware
> path delay already!
I don't know for sure, but I have a suspicion on it. In particular, I think
it is the sort of thing that used to lead to people advocating BeOS as a
multimedia/audio production OS. That is, the ability to assign special
"real time" or "near real time" designations to certain processes to make
sure that normal operating system process scheduling gyrations don't
interfere with their getting the performance they need.
My further suspicion is that it isn't so much about how low you can run the
latency on your sound card in most cases -- e.g. unless the Windows Vista
drivers will provide more options than the Windows XP drivers do on my E-MU
1820M, 2 ms is the lowest I'm going to be able to set, and I'm running
successfully at that, even to the mix stage, on my Core 2 Duo E6600-based
system (couldn't get down that low on my older Athlon XP 1600+ system,
though, and my mixes sometimes even topped out when running at 50 ms
latency). Rather, it is probably about being able to go as low as you can
more consistently, even in the face of other things going on that might
occasionally cause burps due to "planet alignment" -- actually just multiple
things happening at the same time due to the luck of the draw on default
task scheduling and prioritization.
This might not be a big deal for people who strip their DAWs down so they
are streamlined to only do DAW stuff, as there might not be much going on
that could cause burps. For someone who doesn't get into Windows tweaking,
though, or who is running a multipurpose system that includes tools like
virus checkers running in the background, it might help a whole lot more,
making sure the audio drivers never burp at the kind of latency that is
reasonable for the performance of the machine, even if things do start do
spike from time to time on the system.
Again, I am only speculating at this point. However, I will be interviewing
Cakewalk's new CTO in the fairly near future for CakewalkNet, and the Vista
developments are one of the key topics. Thus, I'll see if I can get some
more elaboration on this point. Check www.cakewalknet.com a couple of weeks
from now. (Not sure exactly when the interview will be done, as I still
need to get together my list of questions.)
Rick
--
=======================================
Rick Paul
Closet Cowboy Music (ASCAP)
Web: www.RickPaul.info
MySpace: www.myspace.com/rickpaulmusic
=======================================
Romeo Rondeau
interviewing
> Cakewalk's new CTO in the fairly near future for CakewalkNet, and the Vista
> developments are one of the key topics. Thus, I'll see if I can get some
> more elaboration on this point. Check www.cakewalknet.com a couple of weeks
> from now. (Not sure exactly when the interview will be done, as I still
> need to get together my list of questions.)
>
> Rick
Very cool, Rick! Make sure you remind us when the interview hits.
Rick Paul
court now.
Rick
--
=======================================
Rick Paul
Closet Cowboy Music (ASCAP)
Web: www.RickPaul.info
MySpace: www.myspace.com/rickpaulmusic
=======================================
"Romeo Rondeau" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:YFCwh.40504$Gr2....@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net...
kitekrazy
revert back to XP if needed.
The Ghost In The Machine
<kite...@sbcglobal.net.nospam>
wrote
on Fri, 02 Feb 2007 22:46:00 GMT
<IaPwh.24280$yC5....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net>:
> I didn't know this but if you install Vista you won't be able to
> revert back to XP if needed.
Well, one could revert (FSVO) if one had an image handy.
One could shut down the XP system, insert a LiveDisc,
boot, mount what is needed for the storage of the image,
dd if=/dev/hda1 of=/some/where/else/saved, and have that
image handy. If one wants to save space, one can compress
it as well, and later decompress it if one really needs
to get it back.
(Adjust filenames to taste. Ideally, /some/where/else
really would be somewhere else, such as a NFS server
mounted for the occasion.)
Once the backup is complete, unmount everything, reboot
with the Vista install disc, and have fun. If something
futzes up royally, reboot with the LiveDisc and restore.
The main drawback with this method is that unused
blocks containing garbage will be stored along with the
relevant data, making the physical backup larger than
really necessary. However, this should otherwise work
reasonably well.
I don't know how well Norton Ghost would work in this
area, since I'm not that familiar with it -- nor do I know
what Vista did with the NTFS volume format to screw us
(and Norton) up, erm, I mean, improve it. ;-)
I'm also not sure what to tell you regarding the MBR.
Presumably, Vista will want to overwrite it, so one might
want to save that as well:
dd if=/dev/hda of=/some/where/else/bootblock bs=1024 count=1
'man dd' for more details on all this glop, resources permitting.
(There's Linux manpages flitting about on the Web somewhere.)
As usual, cum grano salis and caveat user. :-) I have no
knowledge regarding XP licensing restrictions.
--
#191, ewi...@earthlink.net
Is it cheaper to learn Linux, or to hire someone
to fix your Windows problems?
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Rick Paul
Borthwick, is now on-line on www.cakewalknet.com. The direct URL to the
article is:
http://www.cakewalknet.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=468&Itemid=2
(or just go to the main page and click on the link near the top of the
page).
Rick
--
=======================================
Rick Paul
Closet Cowboy Music (ASCAP)
Web: www.RickPaul.info
MySpace: www.myspace.com/rickpaulmusic
=======================================
"Romeo Rondeau" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:YFCwh.40504$Gr2....@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net...