[News] Gnote 0.3.1
Tony Manco
News
----
0.3.1 "Five-One-Four" - 2009/05/05
Fixes:
* Missing header in
src/addins/inserttimestamp/inserttimestampnoteaddin.cpp
* Don't crash when deleting a note (Closes #579839)
* Plugged various memory leaks.
* Cleared up a few Gtkmm warnings.
* Applet was trying to use an icon named "tomboy" (Closes #581226)
(Robert Millan)
* .desktop file didn't have the version (Jonathon Jongsma)
* .desktop has improper XFCE category and should have OnlyShowIn entry
for GNOME and XFCE (Closes #580481)
* Help didn't work in the Note windows. (Closes #581200)
* Notebook addin toolbar button was inconsistent. (Closes #581213)
* Delete notebook now works in the search dialog. (Closes #581222)
* Popup menus in the search dialog now appear.
* Output options at the end of configure and fail if D-Bus is enabled.
Translations:
* Added translations:
- Japanese (ja)
* Updated translations:
- Arabic (ar)
- Catalan (ca)
- French (fr)
- Spanish (es)
* Fix format causing crashes. (Closes #580868)
* Fix a typo in the gconf schema description (Closes #581239)
* Fix small translatable strings (Closes #579197)
- http://mail.gnome.org/archives/ftp-release-list/2009-May/msg00048.html
--
Linux - You must break it | Windows - It breaks itself
Hadron
Tony Manco <trm...@gmx.tm> writes:
> Gnote is an experimental port of Tomboy to C++
It helps if you post a link to it.
Duh.
--
In view of all the deadly computer viruses that have been spreading
lately, Weekend Update would like to remind you: when you link up to
another computer, you’re linking up to every computer that that
computer has ever linked up to. — Dennis Miller
Hadron
> Tony Manco <trm...@gmx.tm> writes:
>
>> Gnote is an experimental port of Tomboy to C++
>
> It helps if you post a link to it.
>
> Duh.
A quick Google for gnote and .... nothing.
Seriously. ftp? Tick. Git? Tick.
Homepage telling you what it is and why you should use it?
Nope.
What I did discover though was gnote causing distro and library hell:
,----
| or Fedora, we had to remove tomboy from the live cd due to lack of
| space. Unfortunately, Gnote probably won't be a good replacement since
| it would pull in the gtkmm, boost and other dependencies. Have you
| considered Vala or PyGTK instead?
`----
In other words yet more half arsed, half promoted slopware being written
for ALL the WRONG reasons.
hell, you couldn't even post this supposed "advert" with a decent
link. All you did was paste in the git log. Pathetic.
Doctor Smith
> Hadron <hadro...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Tony Manco <trm...@gmx.tm> writes:
>>
>>> Gnote is an experimental port of Tomboy to C++
>>
>> It helps if you post a link to it.
>>
>> Duh.
>
> A quick Google for gnote and .... nothing.
>
> Seriously. ftp? Tick. Git? Tick.
>
> Homepage telling you what it is and why you should use it?
>
> Nope.
>
> What I did discover though was gnote causing distro and library hell:
>
> ,----
>| or Fedora, we had to remove tomboy from the live cd due to lack of
>| space. Unfortunately, Gnote probably won't be a good replacement since
>| it would pull in the gtkmm, boost and other dependencies. Have you
>| considered Vala or PyGTK instead?
> `----
>
> In other words yet more half arsed, half promoted slopware being written
> for ALL the WRONG reasons.
>
> hell, you couldn't even post this supposed "advert" with a decent
> link. All you did was paste in the git log. Pathetic.
Roy Schestowitz has appointed Tony Manco as the anti-mono czar.
The BN site is buzzing with the mono hate machine ramping up into full
battle mode.
What a bunch of fools.
But at the same time reading their tripe is highly entertaining.
Hadron
> On Wed, 06 May 2009 16:35:19 +0200, Hadron wrote:
>
>> Hadron <hadro...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Tony Manco <trm...@gmx.tm> writes:
>>>
>>>> Gnote is an experimental port of Tomboy to C++
>>>
>>> It helps if you post a link to it.
>>>
>>> Duh.
>>
>> A quick Google for gnote and .... nothing.
>>
>> Seriously. ftp? Tick. Git? Tick.
>>
>> Homepage telling you what it is and why you should use it?
>>
>> Nope.
>>
>> What I did discover though was gnote causing distro and library hell:
>>
>> ,----
>>| or Fedora, we had to remove tomboy from the live cd due to lack of
>>| space. Unfortunately, Gnote probably won't be a good replacement since
>>| it would pull in the gtkmm, boost and other dependencies. Have you
>>| considered Vala or PyGTK instead?
>> `----
>>
>> In other words yet more half arsed, half promoted slopware being written
>> for ALL the WRONG reasons.
>>
>> hell, you couldn't even post this supposed "advert" with a decent
>> link. All you did was paste in the git log. Pathetic.
>
> Roy Schestowitz has appointed Tony Manco as the anti-mono czar.
Is Ahlstrom pissed off at getting overlooked by his overlord?
>
> The BN site is buzzing with the mono hate machine ramping up into full
> battle mode.
>
> What a bunch of fools.
> But at the same time reading their tripe is highly entertaining.
It is. COLA is pure entertainment. Watching Ray whining about not being
able to get a refund for one component of a system he bought is hilarious.
Doctor Smith
I think Ahlstrom's position in the food chain is as a decoy to take the
focus off of Schestowitz's idiocy.
Terry Porter plays a similar role however he is not being compensated like
some others are.
>>
>> The BN site is buzzing with the mono hate machine ramping up into full
>> battle mode.
>>
>> What a bunch of fools.
>> But at the same time reading their tripe is highly entertaining.
>
> It is. COLA is pure entertainment. Watching Ray whining about not being
> able to get a refund for one component of a system he bought is hilarious.
Yea...
I just bought a new Mercury Milan and I don't like the gear shift knob.
I wonder if they will give me a refund for the $5.99 it's probably worth?
Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Tony Manco on Wednesday 06 May 2009 14:14 : \____
> Gnote is an experimental port of Tomboy to C++
Novell de Icaza will start rallying the troops...
"More MONO! Schnell! We need more Mono!!111"
"I saw that internally inside Microsoft many times when I was told to stay away
from supporting Mono in public. They reserve the right to sue"
--Robert Scoble, former Microsoft evangelist
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Roy S. Schestowitz | $> sudo root; cd /; rm -rf *.doc
http://Schestowitz.com | Free as in Free Beer | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Cpu(s): 22.6%us, 5.0%sy, 0.1%ni, 70.6%id, 1.3%wa, 0.0%hi, 0.4%si, 0.0%st
http://iuron.com - semantic engine to gather information
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Doctor Smith
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> ____/ Tony Manco on Wednesday 06 May 2009 14:14 : \____
>
>> Gnote is an experimental port of Tomboy to C++
>
> Novell de Icaza will start rallying the troops...
>
> "More MONO! Schnell! We need more Mono!!111"
>
No.
The masses want something that actually works.
Tomboy works.
Gnote is a joke.
People really don't give a shit about your religious wars, Roy Schestowitz.
Hadron
Interesting fact : the three biggest "I ams" in COLA who boast about no
problems and "works for me" are Australians. Shearman, Porter and
Hilliard. It's typically true to type.
Hadron
Google up Gnote if you dont know what tomboy is.
Go on.
I dare you.
Tony Manco
> Hadron <hadro...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Tony Manco <trm...@gmx.tm> writes:
>>
>>> Gnote is an experimental port of Tomboy to C++
>> It helps if you post a link to it.
>>
>> Duh.
>
> A quick Google for gnote and .... nothing.
>
Idiot...
Have a look, 2nd (second) entry on the first 10 (ten) results...
http://i44.tinypic.com/vgjvys.jpg
Wait, maybe you don't understand English pretty well do you?... let me
try and help...
Dutch?
Neem een kijkje, 2e (tweede) inschrijving op de eerste 10 (tien) de
resultaten ...
German?
Werfen Sie einen Blick, 2. (zweiten) Eintrag auf der ersten 10 (zehn)
Ergebnisse ...
Swedish?
Ta en titt, 2: a (andra) in på den första 10 (tio) resultat ...
Danish?
Kig, 2. (anden) optagelse på de første 10 (ti) resultater ...
French?
Jetez un coup d'œil, 2 (seconde) sur la première entrée 10 (dix) de
résultats ...
~Auto translated~
Want the link, there you go Mr.kernel hacker...
Hadron
> Hadron wrote:
>> Hadron <hadro...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Tony Manco <trm...@gmx.tm> writes:
>>>
>>>> Gnote is an experimental port of Tomboy to C++
>>> It helps if you post a link to it.
>>>
>>> Duh.
>>
>> A quick Google for gnote and .... nothing.
>>
>
> Idiot...
>
> Have a look, 2nd (second) entry on the first 10 (ten) results...
>
> http://i44.tinypic.com/vgjvys.jpg
>
> Wait, maybe you don't understand English pretty well do you?... let me
> try and help...
Thanks you're confirming you're an idiot.
That page is:
Contents?
,----
| Gnote is my experimental port of Tomboy to C++
|
| It is the same note taking application, minus things not done yet, boatload of addins and synchronization. Be patient they'll come.
|
| Download
|
| Can be downloaded from http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/sources/gnote/
|
| Software Packages
|
| Fedora includes Gnote in Rawhide (development branch leading to Fedora 11) and in Fedora 10
|
| # yum install gnote
|
| Pakages for Debian are available from http://people.debian.org/~rmh/gnote/
|
| Packages for Ubuntu are available from https://edge.launchpad.net/~gnote/+archive/ppa
|
| Archlinux has gnote in community
|
| # pacman -Sy gnote
|
| Source code
|
| The source code is currently hosted by GNOME.
|
| git://git.gnome.org/gnote
|
| Reporting bugs
|
| Do so in GNOME Bugzilla: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=gnote
|
| IRC
|
| The IRC channel is #gnote on GimpNet.
|
| Maintainers
|
| Hubert Figuiere
|
| File format
|
| The file format is the same as Tomboy's Note Format
`----
Point reinforced. Wow. Roy has another dickbot working for him.
But of course you snipped my post to show off. Here, let me replace the
pertinent points which make you look like a tit:
,----
| Seriously. ftp? Tick. Git? Tick.
|
| Homepage telling you what it is and why you should use it?
|
| Nope.
|
| What I did discover though was gnote causing distro and library hell:
`----
Tony Manco
<sniped troll crap>
You should really learn how to wordwrap boxquoted text in Emacs/GNUs...
> ,----
> | Seriously. ftp? Tick. Git? Tick.
> |
> | Homepage telling you what it is and why you should use it?
> |
> | Nope.
> |
> | What I did discover though was gnote causing distro and library hell:
> `----
You just *quoted* all that information... go bury yourself you peanut
sized brain troll... you're going back to my killfile...
Oh, and that distro library hell thing, I see no proof and you didn't
mention what distribution it was having problems on... so, 0 credibility
for you.
Hadron
Huh?
>
>> ,----
>> | Seriously. ftp? Tick. Git? Tick.
>> |
>> | Homepage telling you what it is and why you should use it?
>> |
>> | Nope.
>> |
>> | What I did discover though was gnote causing distro and library hell:
>> `----
>
>
> You just *quoted* all that information... go bury yourself you peanut
I know I did. And nothing there told you what gnote IS.
Are you really this stupid? Are you WronG or High Plains Hypocrite?
> sized brain troll... you're going back to my killfile...
>
> Oh, and that distro library hell thing, I see no proof and you didn't
> mention what distribution it was having problems on... so, 0 credibility
> for you.
Its called Google.
here, lets look at the thread (if you are able) and figure it out:
I said:
,----
| What I did discover though was gnote causing distro and library hell:
|
| ,----
| | or Fedora, we had to remove tomboy from the live cd due to lack of
| | space. Unfortunately, Gnote probably won't be a good replacement since
| | it would pull in the gtkmm, boost and other dependencies. Have you
| | considered Vala or PyGTK instead?
| `----
`----
I did the amazing task of pasting the first line into Google and Yay!!!
http://www.figuiere.net/hub/blog/?2009/04/06/657-gnote-010
Doctor Smith
Tony Manco is a Schestowitz wannabe.
He hangs out in Schestowitz's ICQ channel sucking up to Roy.
That's when he is not breaking into his school's Windows servers.
Tony Manco seems to have a love for "wine", hahahaha!
Maybe he should try drinking it instead of running it...
Miguel de Icaza
> > Gnote is an experimental port of Tomboy to C++
>
> Novell deIcazawill start rallying the troops...
>
> "More MONO! Schnell! We need more Mono!!111"
I disagree Roy. As someone that has embraced multiple languages and
bridges across multiple languages for years, this is very far from the
truth.
People should write code in whatever language they feel like using.
If folks want Tomboy written in C++ and want to help GNote, more power
to them.
But I embrace more than multiple languages. Trying to force people
into a single programming language or framework is like trying to
convert people to your religion. And I see no point in launching a
full evangelical effort to spread my particular kind of religion, or
my set of beliefs.
I like to see the world as a world of possibilities, something that
can be tweaked to be improved, polished, iterated upon and something
that I can have fun doing. The world of dead-ends and fear is not my
world.
There is never going to be an answer to the question what is better vi
or emacs, perl or python. There is no binary answer, there are
millions of elements at play.
Every software programmer mind is a universe (ok, Roy's mind is more
like a dirty puddle) and when a programmer writes code, he will assess
different needs when he writes the code.
Some programmers will want to squeeze every cycle of a computer and
will use assembly language and clever algorithms to achieve their
goal; Some others will want to innovate, the computer, the language
and the framework are merely the raw materials for creating; Some
wants to learn a new skill; Some want to improve an existing
skill; Some want to write faster code; Some want more memory
efficient code; Some want functional code; Some like documented
code; Some people write programs, other write systems, other write
products. Some want to achieve a vision; Some want to get their job
done; Some are scratching an itch; Some write it as a gift to
their friends; Some as a gift to their communities; Some to show
their skills; Some have big dreams; Some are wizards; Some bring
expertise in algorithms; Some their expertise in math, biology,
relationships, evolution, statistics, math; Some look for new
solutions to existing problems; Some create new solutions for new
problems.
I have had the privilege of working with people across that spectrum
and our lives and work have crossed paths, sometimes once, sometimes
many times and some collaborations continue to this day. And I have
learned and enjoyed every moment of it.
A long time ago I realized that there was no point in trying to impose
the "one true way" on others. If people like vi more than emacs, so
be it. We will not intersect there, but we might intersect somewhere
else. Just like I do not need all of my friends to do everything I
do at the same time. I enjoy the company of my different friends
for different activities. I would not want to change them.
I have also crossed the paths of people that hate, people that lie,
bigots and poo poo heads. I do not enjoy those people.
Miguel.
Sinister Midget
> Roy said:
>
>> > Gnote is an experimental port of Tomboy to C++
>>
>> Novell deIcazawill start rallying the troops...
And it didn't take long, either.
>> "More MONO! Schnell! We need more Mono!!111"
>
> I disagree Roy. As someone that has embraced multiple languages and
> bridges across multiple languages for years, this is very far from the
> truth.
>
> People should write code in whatever language they feel like using.
People who write in whatever code they feel like using have to
understand that not everyone is going to like their choice of tool.
Some TCL/TK apps are butt-ugly. So are some GTK programs. Not all by
any means. I'm sure some people avoid some programs based solely on
their looks. The user has choices, too.
> If folks want Tomboy written in C++ and want to help GNote, more power
> to them.
>
> But I embrace more than multiple languages. Trying to force people
> into a single programming language or framework is like trying to
> convert people to your religion. And I see no point in launching a
> full evangelical effort to spread my particular kind of religion, or
> my set of beliefs.
You have it backward. It's not a matter of trying to force anyone into
anything. It's a revolt against MONO because it's seen by many (me, for
example) as a possible hook for a criminal monopoly into linux that can
be eventually used as a weapon against it.
I'm not going to get into all of the technical aspects of the whole
thing because I don't claim to be knowledgeable about it all. But I do
know that more than once in the past said illegal monopoly has built
bridges to allow others to work with their products, then pulled the
rug out from under those who tried to participate. They've built their
entire criminal enterprise on the concept of always making others play
catch-up (when they aren't crushing them outright, or buying and
destroying them afterward), and twisting how their things work just s
smidgen to make things not quite work properly for others' products.
Many people (me, for example) see MONO as one more shell game for them.
It's nothing more than an extension out of the monopoly OS world and
into the linux world, a world where it previously had zero effect.
We choose not to participate in it by supporting it. Whether those
pushing it are aware of it or not (I suspect more than one is, but I
don't have any personal knowledge of that).
I'm personally proactive. I eradicate every library, application or
support structure on my system that has the slightest thing to do with
MONO. .NET can stay out of my life completely, no matter what name it
chooses to call itself.
Beyond that I couldn't care less what code anybody wants to use. That's
their business. If it works for me and it does what I need, I'll use
it. All I avoid is anything to do with .NET/MONO.
--
Vista: Proof you CAN fool some of the people all of the time.
Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Miguel de Icaza on Tuesday 12 May 2009 04:22 : \____
> <snip offtopic ramble />
Miguel,
What do you think about the TomTom case? You have never addressed this
question, AFAIK?
Why did you snip the Scoble quote in your reply to me?
Do you think Microsoft wants GNOME (and by extension GNU/Linux) to succeed?
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Roy S. Schestowitz | Those who can, Open-Source
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU is Not UNIX | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
http://iuron.com - proposing a non-profit search engine
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Hadron
> Roy said:
>
>> > Gnote is an experimental port of Tomboy to C++
>>
>> Novell deIcazawill start rallying the troops...
>>
>> "More MONO! Schnell! We need more Mono!!111"
>
> I disagree Roy. As someone that has embraced multiple languages and
> bridges across multiple languages for years, this is very far from the
> truth.
>
> People should write code in whatever language they feel like using.
>
> If folks want Tomboy written in C++ and want to help GNote, more power
> to them.
>
> But I embrace more than multiple languages. Trying to force people
> into a single programming language or framework is like trying to
> convert people to your religion. And I see no point in launching a
> full evangelical effort to spread my particular kind of religion, or
> my set of beliefs.
>
> I like to see the world as a world of possibilities, something that
> can be tweaked to be improved, polished, iterated upon and something
> that I can have fun doing. The world of dead-ends and fear is not my
> world.
>
> There is never going to be an answer to the question what is better vi
> or emacs, perl or python. There is no binary answer, there are
> millions of elements at play.
You are wasting your time. Roy and his "troops", notably Chris Ahlstrom,
openly attack OSS developers without having a clue about the technology
in hand. ALL they see is MS - and they hate MS. Which is surprising
since they make their money from MS SW and Adverts. Yes - Roy has MS
adverts generating him income on his anti Novel/Mono
websites. Astonishing eh? Chris also ranted about Mono recently only to
back track when it became apparent that he didn't know what it
was. Although he isn't quite as hateful of MS as Roy as has actually
openly boasted about how much money he makes from MS SW. I would have
thought mono would have opened his possibilities for income some more.
Best of luck in your initiatives : Linux needs Mono more than the other
way around.....
--
Tim Smith
Roy Schestowitz <newsg...@schestowitz.com> wrote:
>
> Novell de Icaza will start rallying the troops...
>
> "More MONO! Schnell! We need more Mono!!111"
Nice hypocrisy there, Roy. You've complained several times on
boycottnovell about your opponents being immature in addressing you or
your site. Yet you constantly call people dumb names.
--
--Tim Smith
Hadron
People who do more for the advancement of SW for Desktop Linux than Roy
and all the "advocates" put together. It's shocking.
Miguel de Icaza
> I'm not going to get into all of the technical aspects of the whole
> thing because I don't claim to be knowledgeable about it all.
You are not, as your posting shows.
> I'm personally proactive. I eradicate every library, application or
> support structure on my system that has the slightest thing to do with
> MONO. .NET can stay out of my life completely, no matter what name it
> chooses to call itself.
More power to you.
Miguel.
Miguel de Icaza
> What do you think about the TomTom case? You have never addressed this
> question, AFAIK?
I am not sure what Tom Tom has to do with GNote or your original claim
that I disputed on my previous post.
But since you ask so nicely, I will tell you my personal take (not
speaking for my employer, include standard disclaimer, etc).
As a principle, I think that the patent system needs to be reformed,
and I do not like software patents.
But to be specific about Tom Tom: I only know what was made public
during the case, and there is a lot that I do not know. I could
speculate, but there is little value on it, I doubt I can add a guess
that has not been presented before.
I know that Microsoft sued Tom Tom for patent infringement on about
eight to twelve patents (I do not know the exact number) and two of
them were related to vfat, the bulk of them being on non-FAT bits.
I do not know what triggered the lawsuit, why or how the settled.
There is not much public factual information on the subject, but there
are volumes of speculation written.
> Why did you snip the Scoble quote in your reply to me?
Because it was irrelevant to the point I was addressing ("rallying the
troops"). Btw, you failed to address *any* of the points related to
the actual discussion.
The context of Scoble talking to "higher ups" was the PDC 2005 when he
was trying to help me get a Mono BOF at the PDC. At the time
Microsoft would not help or engage in open source in any form and it
was at the peak of their Linux rhetoric.
Most importantly, Scoble quote is irrelevant anyways. Microsoft
claims that Linux infringes two hundred and something patents, and as
such the same point that Scoble makes about Mono can be made about the
other pieces in Linux that we might infringe.
> Do you think Microsoft wants GNOME (and by extension GNU/Linux) to succeed?
I do not think that Linux on the desktop is keeping folks at Microsoft
awake at night. Our market share is still very small, we are deeply
fragmented and our quality control is terrible. We have competing
projects, distributions, packages and ABIs. ISVs have a hard time
targeting the Linux desktop due to these.
Sadly, MacOS has taken the spot that I wish GNOME or KDE had taken.
Miguel.
Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Miguel de Icaza on Tuesday 12 May 2009 19:38 : \____
> Hello Roy,
>
>> What do you think about the TomTom case? You have never addressed this
>> question, AFAIK?
>
> I am not sure what Tom Tom has to do with GNote or your original claim
> that I disputed on my previous post.
The relevance of Gnote has to do with erasure of Mono.
> But since you ask so nicely, I will tell you my personal take (not
> speaking for my employer, include standard disclaimer, etc).
Understood.
> As a principle, I think that the patent system needs to be reformed,
> and I do not like software patents.
I know.
> But to be specific about Tom Tom: I only know what was made public
> during the case, and there is a lot that I do not know. I could
> speculate, but there is little value on it, I doubt I can add a guess
> that has not been presented before.
>
> I know that Microsoft sued Tom Tom for patent infringement on about
> eight to twelve patents (I do not know the exact number) and two of
> them were related to vfat, the bulk of them being on non-FAT bits.
What makes these patents unique is that without them, there is none of
that 'interoperability' Microsoft and Novell love raving about. This shows
that Microsoft sues over the glue which is based on the Microsoft 'standard'.
In this case it's FAT; in another episode it can be Mono. These patents cannot
be 'worked around' because of their nature of compatibility assurance. Jose X
has a good essaythat demonstrates this point.
> I do not know what triggered the lawsuit, why or how the settled.
They spoke behind the scenes, TomTom would not pay, Microsoft sued, TomTom paid
less than half a million Euro. Microsoft invited TomTom to reveal the details
1-2 weeks ago (OIN's CEO said so).
> There is not much public factual information on the subject, but there
> are volumes of speculation written.
I wrote factual things about it. Since you read my site daily I believe you
have read it to a greater or lesser degree.
>> Why did you snip the Scoble quote in your reply to me?
>
> Because it was irrelevant to the point I was addressing ("rallying the
> troops"). Btw, you failed to address *any* of the points related to
> the actual discussion.
I don't think the issue of choice is major to this discussion although that too
is worthy of a separate debate. You lead developers right into Microsoft's
arms. That's the company that compares Linux to cancer, you know? :-)
> The context of Scoble talking to "higher ups" was the PDC 2005 when he
> was trying to help me get a Mono BOF at the PDC. At the time
> Microsoft would not help or engage in open source in any form and it
> was at the peak of their Linux rhetoric.
Is there a 'new Microsoft'? Do you genuinely believe it?
> Most importantly, Scoble quote is irrelevant anyways. Microsoft
> claims that Linux infringes two hundred and something patents, and as
> such the same point that Scoble makes about Mono can be made about the
> other pieces in Linux that we might infringe.
He said they might sue, not just threaten. Also see what I wrote about FAT or
Mono being unique. Please make an effort to make your videos available as Ogg
by the way, I sometimes can't watch what you post.
>> Do you think Microsoft wants GNOME (and by extension GNU/Linux) to succeed?
>
> I do not think that Linux on the desktop is keeping folks at Microsoft
> awake at night.
Well, you have not been paying attention then. :-) The executives themselves
talk about it occasionally.
> Our market share is still very small, we are deeply
> fragmented and our quality control is terrible. We have competing
> projects, distributions, packages and ABIs. ISVs have a hard time
> targeting the Linux desktop due to these.
>
> Sadly, MacOS has taken the spot that I wish GNOME or KDE had taken.
If you are referring to the desktop only, which you are, then you might want to
extend the definition/scope to newer form factors. GNU/Linux on desktops is
not as scarce as they wish you to believe. Maybe you spend a lot of time
talking to people in the Microsoft ecosystem and thus drinking from the same
well.
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Roy S. Schestowitz | (S)oftware (U)nd (S)ystem(E)ntwicklung
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU is Not UNIX | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
http://iuron.com - proposing a non-profit search engine
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Miguel de Icaza
Once again, speaking for myself, not for my employer, yada yada yada.
> What makes these patents unique is that without them, there is none of
> that 'interoperability' Microsoft and Novell love raving about. This shows
> that Microsoft sues over the glue which is based on the Microsoft 'standard'.
> In this case it's FAT; in another episode it can be Mono. These patents cannot
> be 'worked around' because of their nature of compatibility assurance. Jose X
> has a good essaythat demonstrates this point.
Well, two things, we do not know if Microsoft just threw everything
they had at TomTom, and that included VFAT and second, we do not know
if those patents can be worked around.
But I see what you are trying to point out, so for the sake of the
argument, let us just assume that Microsoft does have those two
hundred and something patents on Linux. And that everyone of their
claims is so good that like you say they "cannot be 'worked around'".
So people seem to be facing a few choices:
(a) Ignore the patents, and hope to never become a target.
(b) Avoid any software patented that Microsoft might have a patent on.
(c) Try to work around the patents when possible.
(d) License the patents from Microsoft.
(e) Appeal to Microsoft to give public covenants to patents they own.
(c) is not really an option if you and your friends are so ready to
give up. I understand though, since none of you actually write
software, this might seem like an impossible situation.
So it seems that you are OK with (a) for most free software, except in
the case of Mono, where you advocate (b).
This is a bit of a double standard in my opinion. If you are going
to remove Mono on the grounds of patents, you might as well start
removing a lot more software from your system.
But I do not believe that you believe you are being hypocritical.
What I believe is happening is that at the core, you are anti-
Microsoft and you do want to fight anything that comes from them.
Mono is an open source/free software implementation of a technology
from Microsoft. So the patent discussion about Mono is merely a
weapon against anything-Microsoft, rather than a genuine concern over
Mono's patents being a problem in say, Gnome.
As you are probably aware, Mono as used by Gnome-based applications is
built on top of the ECMA stack and does not use or depend on ASP.NET,
Winforms, WPF, WCF or any of the other non-standard technologies.
We in the Mono universe have created a parallel stack that uses what
is standard on a Linux system. For example, our GUI toolkit is Gtk#
which is an CIL binding to Gtk+.
I read this story on Ben's book. A shoe company sends two salesmen
to a rural area in Africa, and after a couple of weeks, he receives a
telegram from one of his sales people, it reads "ABORT MISSION, NOBODY
HERE WEARS SHOES, GOING BACK HOME". Then he receives a message from
the other sales man and it reads "GREAT BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY, NOBODY
HERE HAS SHOES. SIGNED LEASE FOR STORE".
I like the second world, the world of possibility. A world where we
can help Microsoft become a better open source citizen. I see a world
where we can grow the pie, instead of a world where we have to divide
the pie, where hackers at every company share knowledge and code.
When your world is a world of hate, fear and impossibilities you give
up early.
I do not believe that I can change your mind, you have too much
invested in hate.
> They spoke behind the scenes, TomTom would not pay, Microsoft sued, TomTom paid
> less than half a million Euro. Microsoft invited TomTom to reveal the details
> 1-2 weeks ago (OIN's CEO said so).
This is speculation, we do not know what happened.
I know some juicy details about another public patent lawsuit (it has
nothing to do with Microsoft, Novell or Linux) and I happen to know
that what has been said publicly by both parties is very far from what
actually happened. Both parties accused each other over who started
first, but they are both lying by omission.
That is why I do not want to speculate without facts.
In Tom Tom's case in particular, if you followed all the articles, you
will know that there are several gaps in the story.
> I wrote factual things about it. Since you read my site daily I believe you
> have read it to a greater or lesser degree.
The problem with your writing is that it is 10% facts, 90%
speculation. Or as it is called in journalistic circles, propaganda.
> I don't think the issue of choice is major to this discussion although that too
> is worthy of a separate debate. You lead developers right into Microsoft's
> arms. That's the company that compares Linux to cancer, you know? :-)
Yes, they said "Linux is a cancer" years ago, but they have changed
and they have gone as far as open sourcing key pieces of code, as they
have evolved and understood that they can be a mixed source company.
By not acknowledging that they can change, and by repeating
information that is now outdated (and you know that, but you choose to
not acknowledge it) you are demonizing the enemy.
And once you have demonized your enemy, then it is easy to justify any
course of action, you can brush aside facts or inconvenient details as
anything goes against the great satan. That is a propaganda tactic.
I googled for "Demonize your enemy" and this is the second match:
http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Fall98/Wolfe/demonize.html
"War posters often portray the enemy as a beast or demon in
order to foster unity
against the opposing side. People sometimes experience
difficulty generating
malevolence towards a faceless enemy. By giving the population
visual examples
of the offensive and immoral actions of the enemy, a strong
sense of nationalism
is established."
War propaganda posters. They remind me of some of the artwork you
use on your site.
> Is there a 'new Microsoft'? Do you genuinely believe it?
Of course I do. As a darwinist at the core, I believe in evolution
and I believe that companies change. Or risk becoming irrelevant.
Not only I believe it, but there is a whole industry dedicated to
helping companies cope with change in the market (consulting companies
like Mckenzie) and research done by economists at pretty much every
major university. There are nice books that explain the basics for
folks in the industry like the "Innovators dilemma", "From Good to
Great" and "Crossing the Chasm".
I have pointed this out on various interview in more detail, but
basically I believe that the media hype around Linux in 1997-2001 was
responsible for Microsoft's reaction towards open source. Linux was
portrayed as the technology that would destroy Microsoft within
"months". In the early days few people understood open source, and
Microsoft reaction to the unknown was very negative.
This is common when you do not understand the other side, when
ignorance and fear take over understanding and empathy. In war, this
is used to ensure that soldiers will do what they are told. Howard
Zinn discusses this extensively on "Declarations of Independence".
I will take understanding and empathy any day over ignorance and fear.
> He said they might sue, not just threaten. Also see what I wrote about FAT or
> Mono being unique. Please make an effort to make your videos available as Ogg
> by the way, I sometimes can't watch what you post.
Mono and FAT are not unique in any way.
Microsoft practically invented the integrated office suite and
patented everything around it.
They have bought and acquired companies that have had patents on every
corner of the industry for years.
If you really want a list of things that you should remove from your
system because Microsoft has patents that you can not "work around"
you should ask around.
Miguel.
Tim Smith
Roy Schestowitz <newsg...@schestowitz.com> wrote:
> What makes these patents unique is that without them, there is none
> of that 'interoperability' Microsoft and Novell love raving about.
> This shows that Microsoft sues over the glue which is based on the
> Microsoft 'standard'. In this case it's FAT; in another episode it
> can be Mono. These patents cannot be 'worked around' because of their
> nature of compatibility assurance. Jose X has a good essaythat
> demonstrates this point.
Perhaps you would care to show us where Microsoft has submitted FAT to
standardization at a recognized standards body? If you can't show such
a thing, than you comparison between the FAT patents and any patents
that may or may not apply to the parts of Mono used for writing Linux
apps is completely inapt.
(Of course you already knew that--but since actually taking into account
facts completely shoots down most of your arguments, you leave that out).
--
--Tim Smith
Miguel de Icaza
> You are wasting your time. Roy and his "troops", notably Chris Ahlstrom,
> openly attack OSS developers without having a clue about the technology
> in hand.
You are most likely right.
> ALL they see is MS - and they hate MS. Which is surprising
> since they make their money from MS SW and Adverts. Yes - Roy has MS
> adverts generating him income on his anti Novel/Mono
> websites. Astonishing eh?
Priceless.
> Best of luck in your initiatives : Linux needs Mono more than the other
> way around.....
Thanks! I am glad that some people do like our work.
Working with the developers that use Mono to write apps or port apps
has been a great experience.
Miguel.
Sinister Midget
Then you either agree that it isn't a case of trying to force anyone in
a particular direction, or you have nothing to counter what I said
concerning your claim of such.
Which begs the question as to why you think someone personally being
*against* something is tantamount to forcing someone else in a
particular direction. That was how you phrased it.
One comparison was the debate about emacs or vi. But in this case it's
not a demand to use one or the other because there are more choices to
be made (nano and pico being two). Rather it's a choice to *not* use a
particular one for whatever reason the person making the argument is
giving. Put another way: use any of them you like, but not this one.
It's not even that drastic. It's more a case of: use anything you want,
but if you use this one don't expect me to use what you write.
For some reason you decided to completely skip that part after you
brought it up yourself. Interesting.
To tackle that aspect I have no need to have full technical knowledge,
nor even a small amount. I only require the means to determine if one
tool or another is right for me, whether one or another program or
library fits my personal needs and/or desires. In this instance I look
at where everything originated, add a touch of historical fact related
to where it originated, toss in a small dose of healthy skepticism and
distrust, and reach the conclusion that MONO is ruled out where I'm
concerned. If you and others like it and want to keep pushing it, have
fun. But I won't silence my personal opposition just because somebody
thinks it's neato.
--
A computer without Windows is like a fish without a bicycle.
Sinister Midget
> Hello,
>> Best of luck in your initiatives : Linux needs Mono more than the other
>> way around.....
>
> Thanks! I am glad that some people do like our work.
>
> Working with the developers that use Mono to write apps or port apps
> has been a great experience.
You take heart from the most worthless and despicable troll here? Then
you might also want to get Dr Flatfish and DuFuS as allies. They're not
quite the same. They're both floaters while Qook is a sinker. But at
least they're carved from the same sort of substance.
--
"[Microsoft's] products just aren't engineered for security."
-- Brian Valentine
Senior Vice President, Windows Development
Microsoft Corporation
Peter Köhlmann
> Hello,
>
>> You are wasting your time. Roy and his "troops", notably Chris
>> Ahlstrom, openly attack OSS developers without having a clue about the
>> technology in hand.
>
> You are most likely right.
He is absolutely certain total wrong.
Hadron Quark is one of the worst trolls COLA has ever seen.
Nobody, except Snit (Michael Glasser), is lying that much.
>> ALL they see is MS - and they hate MS. Which is surprising
>> since they make their money from MS SW and Adverts. Yes - Roy has MS
>> adverts generating him income on his anti Novel/Mono
>> websites. Astonishing eh?
>
> Priceless.
Oh, Linux mags have MS ads. Linux websites do so.
Is that "priceless", too?
>> Best of luck in your initiatives : Linux needs Mono more than the
>> other way around.....
>
> Thanks! I am glad that some people do like our work.
Some people don't like it for its connections with MS. They have a deep
distrust for anything MS does, and they have reasons for it. So they act
on the premise that they are better "wrong than sorry"
It has nothing to do with the quality of Mono.
> Working with the developers that use Mono to write apps or port apps
> has been a great experience.
>
> Miguel.
--
Individualists unite!
Hadron
> On 2009-05-12, Miguel de Icaza <miguel....@gmail.com> claimed:
>> Roy said:
>>
>>> > Gnote is an experimental port of Tomboy to C++
>>>
>>> Novell deIcazawill start rallying the troops...
>
> And it didn't take long, either.
>
>>> "More MONO! Schnell! We need more Mono!!111"
>>
>> I disagree Roy. As someone that has embraced multiple languages and
>> bridges across multiple languages for years, this is very far from the
>> truth.
>>
>> People should write code in whatever language they feel like using.
>
> People who write in whatever code they feel like using have to
> understand that not everyone is going to like their choice of tool.
> Some TCL/TK apps are butt-ugly. So are some GTK programs. Not all by
> any means. I'm sure some people avoid some programs based solely on
> their looks. The user has choices, too.
Which is why "feel like" is another way of saying "after due
diligence". They don't need some clueless moron like you telling
them. But good to see you now saying choice is a bad thing ....
>
>> If folks want Tomboy written in C++ and want to help GNote, more power
>> to them.
>>
>> But I embrace more than multiple languages. Trying to force people
>> into a single programming language or framework is like trying to
>> convert people to your religion. And I see no point in launching a
>> full evangelical effort to spread my particular kind of religion, or
>> my set of beliefs.
>
> You have it backward. It's not a matter of trying to force anyone into
> anything. It's a revolt against MONO because it's seen by many (me, for
> example) as a possible hook for a criminal monopoly into linux that can
> be eventually used as a weapon against it.
But you're a clueless twit. You don't even know what Mono is.
>
> I'm not going to get into all of the technical aspects of the whole
> thing because I don't claim to be knowledgeable about it all. But I do
Clearly you know nothing about it.
Hadron
Very well said.
What you have to understand about COLA is that not one of them actually
contributes to Linux or OSS.
It's why they are calls "freetards".
Linux could and should be up there but the previous paragraph neatly
sums up why its not.
You will now be labelled a MS Shill by the "COLA community".
>
> Sadly, MacOS has taken the spot that I wish GNOME or KDE had taken.
According to some COLA posters Linux has around 30% of the desktop
market. I kid you not.
>
> Miguel.
Hadron
Hy, Roy is a "freelance journalist". Freeloader liar more like.
Hadron
Miguel de Icaza <miguel....@gmail.com> writes:
> But I do not believe that you believe you are being hypocritical.
> What I believe is happening is that at the core, you are anti-
> Microsoft and you do want to fight anything that comes from them.
> Mono is an open source/free software implementation of a technology
> from Microsoft. So the patent discussion about Mono is merely a
> weapon against anything-Microsoft, rather than a genuine concern over
> Mono's patents being a problem in say, Gnome.
Wow! It didn't take you long to suss out Roy.
>
> As you are probably aware, Mono as used by Gnome-based applications is
> built on top of the ECMA stack and does not use or depend on ASP.NET,
> Winforms, WPF, WCF or any of the other non-standard technologies.
> We in the Mono universe have created a parallel stack that uses what
> is standard on a Linux system. For example, our GUI toolkit is Gtk#
> which is an CIL binding to Gtk+.
Wowa! Stop talking about facts. Roy is only interested in lies and anti
MS hate.
chrisv
>> Do you think Microsoft wants GNOME (and by extension GNU/Linux) to succeed?
>
>I do not think that Linux on the desktop is keeping folks at Microsoft
>awake at night. Our market share is still very small, we are deeply
>fragmented and our quality control is terrible. We have competing
>projects, distributions, packages and ABIs. ISVs have a hard time
>targeting the Linux desktop due to these.
You didn't answer the question.
Even with the issues you mention, the presence and viability of Linux
hurts Micro$oft profits. Witness the extended life of XP. Witness
the netbook situation.
Micro$oft would prefer the Linux *die*.
DFS
Shut up and admit the truth Gidget:
* you're a clueless idiot who uses Windows by day to make a living
* you pretend to dislike Mono not for any technical reason - of which you
have no knowledge anyway - but because the spec came from MS
DFS
> Hello,
>
>> You are wasting your time. Roy and his "troops", notably Chris
>> Ahlstrom, openly attack OSS developers without having a clue about
>> the technology in hand.
>
> You are most likely right.
>
>> ALL they see is MS - and they hate MS. Which is surprising
>> since they make their money from MS SW and Adverts. Yes - Roy has MS
>> adverts generating him income on his anti Novel/Mono
>> websites. Astonishing eh?
>
> Priceless.
You know you're doing it right when clueless blowhard Linux "advocates" like
Marti, Gidget and Spamowitz don't like it.
chrisv
> "True Linux advocate" Hadron Quark wrote:
>>
>> You are wasting your time. Roy and his "troops", notably Chris Ahlstrom,
>> openly attack OSS developers without having a clue about the technology
>> in hand.
>
>You are most likely right.
No, "Hadron" is most likely lying, as usual.
>> ALL they see is MS - and they hate MS. Which is surprising
>> since they make their money from MS SW and Adverts. Yes - Roy has MS
>> adverts generating him income on his anti Novel/Mono
>> websites. Astonishing eh?
>
>Priceless.
Priceless that you would align yourself with such freedom-hating scum
as Hadron Quark, a known liar and anti-Linux troll. Check out some of
these quotes:
'But then the COLA freeloaders, amongst others, steal the code, branch
it and then make their own "Free" alternative.' - "True Linux
advocate" Hadron Quark
"Thanks beardies - a lot of people will become very rich from your
hard work." - "True Linux advocate" Hadron Quark
"You think installing Edubuntu on cracked old machines for cheapskates
is good advocacy?" - "True Linux advocate" Hadron Quark
"Apparently it's called choice : I call it a diluted mess designed to
confuse and put real people off. A bit like the crazy distro dance."
- "True Linux advocate" Hadron Quark
"Watch all the OSS programmers go shooting over to SUSE now that the
money will start rolling in. LOL." - "True Linux advocate" Hadron
Quark, November 2006
Hadron
Hey, DFS, did you see Gidget making loud noises about what computer
languages people should use? Apparently TCL stuff now looks like crap! A
short while ago he and the others couldn't understand why people dont like
inconsistent desktops and it was all about choice.
Poor Gidget : a third rate Windows sys admin by day and only allowed to
tinker with his linux netbook when his boss is not looking!
DFS
> "DFS" <nospam@dfs_.com> writes:
>
>> Miguel de Icaza wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>>> You are wasting your time. Roy and his "troops", notably Chris
>>>> Ahlstrom, openly attack OSS developers without having a clue about
>>>> the technology in hand.
>>>
>>> You are most likely right.
>>>
>>>> ALL they see is MS - and they hate MS. Which is surprising
>>>> since they make their money from MS SW and Adverts. Yes - Roy has
>>>> MS adverts generating him income on his anti Novel/Mono
>>>> websites. Astonishing eh?
>>>
>>> Priceless.
>>
>> You know you're doing it right when clueless blowhard Linux
>> "advocates" like Marti, Gidget and Spamowitz don't like it.
>
> Hey, DFS, did you see Gidget making loud noises about what computer
> languages people should use? Apparently TCL stuff now looks like
> crap! A short while ago he and the others couldn't understand why
> people dont like inconsistent desktops and it was all about choice.
It's funny to hear him "taking a stand against MS" and deleting all
Mono-related stuff from his system. As if he understands anything about
it.
> Poor Gidget : a third rate Windows sys admin by day and only allowed
> to tinker with his linux netbook when his boss is not looking!
Probably takes it into the john to get his Linux fix during the day.
Miguel de Icaza
> >> support structure on my system that has the slightest thing to do with
> >> MONO. .NET can stay out of my life completely, no matter what name it
> >> chooses to call itself.
>
> > More power to you.
>
> Then you either agree that it isn't a case of trying to force anyone in
> a particular direction, or you have nothing to counter what I said
> concerning your claim of such.
I am just interested in convincing you of anything.
> Which begs the question as to why you think someone personally being
> *against* something is tantamount to forcing someone else in a
> particular direction. That was how you phrased it.
That is not what I said. You might want to read my email again.
> It's not even that drastic. It's more a case of: use anything you want,
> but if you use this one don't expect me to use what you write.
And I am perfectly fine with you not using anything you do not want.
See how easy that was?
> If you and others like it and want to keep pushing it, have
> fun. But I won't silence my personal opposition just because somebody
> thinks it's neato.
That is also fine. I think I said to you "More power to you".
Maybe you wanted me to be more cheery. Here it is:
You go girl!
Miguel de Icaza
>
> What you have to understand about COLA is that not one of them actually
> contributes to Linux or OSS.
>
> It's why they are calls "freetards".
They are the internet version of chickenhawks.
Not only they do not contribute any code, but the noise and propaganda
they
produce actually slows down actual development and advocacy efforts.
> You will now be labelled a MS Shill by the "COLA community".
It is equivalent to be called an "anti-american" by Bill O'Reilly.
If you are their
target, you are doing something right.
Miguel
Miguel de Icaza
>
> Priceless that you would align yourself with such freedom-hating scum
> as Hadron Quark, a known liar and anti-Linux troll. Check out some of
> these quotes:
By showing me all of these quotes, you have decided to use a
fallacious construct by attacking not his argument, but attacking the
man (an ad-hominem attack).
The problem with extremists is that they can only see black and white.
Not only they miss all the shades of gray, but they miss all the other
colors.
Extremists like to have moral clarity, and they can not cope very well
with a world of nuisances, so when something gray walks into their
life, they have to quickly figure out "is it good or bad? black or
white?".
When something red comes into their life, they experience a phenomenon
called cognitive dissonance. They do not know what to do with this,
so they have to force the red into either a white or a black.
Until you continue to see the world as good vs evil or black vs white
you will never appreciate life as many of us, humanists do.
Our world is packed with color and opportunities. From where I
stand, your world seems filled with darkness and hate. Maybe one day
you will break free.
In general, you can spot people that live in this world of hate when
they use expressions like "Micro$oft" or "Lie-berals". They have to
resort to primitive insults because they have been jailed for too long
between the walls of despair that prevent them from experiencing the
world and expanding their minds.
Hadron and I probably have different opinions on open source, but we
should listen to the complains that people have against Linux and work
to fix those. Ignoring problems in Linux will not make them go away,
they will only fester.
My policy for many years has been: criticize your own work, do not
gloat about your own success and study other's success and do not
gloat about their failures.
This seems to give us the best of all worlds:
* if you are doing something right, people will notice, there is no
need to be condescending.
* By studying what others are doing right, you learn and figure out
which areas you can improve, you develop friends and friendships.
* By listening to what is wrong with your work, you can fix the
problem.
* By not attacking limitations on other's people's work you do not
make enemies.
Miguel.
Chris Ahlstrom
this bit o' wisdom:
> I do not think that Linux on the desktop is keeping folks at Microsoft
> awake at night. Our market share is still very small, we are deeply
> fragmented and our quality control is terrible.
Speak for yourself.
Most projects I use are (subjectively) less buggy than most Microsoft
software I have used. Many of the projects I use come with self-tests.
When quality-control numbers are bandied about in the industry,
open-source comes out ahead of commercial.
> We have competing
> projects, distributions, packages and ABIs. ISVs have a hard time
> targeting the Linux desktop due to these.
I agree, somewhat. The more important factor by far is the 800-pound
gorilla in the room -- Microsoft.
> Sadly, MacOS has taken the spot that I wish GNOME or KDE had taken.
It wasn't "MacOS". It was Apple. A company focussed on a single line of
products.
--
This was the most unkindest cut of all.
-- William Shakespeare, "Julius Caesar"
Chris Ahlstrom
this bit o' wisdom:
>> What you have to understand about COLA is that not one of them actually
>> contributes to Linux or OSS.
>>
>> It's why they are calls "freetards".
>
> They are the internet version of chickenhawks.
Wow. Miguel has no objection to Hadron's use of the phrase "freetards".
Hell of way to treat your customers!
--
I reverently believe that the maker who made us all makes everything in New
England, but the weather. I don't know who makes that, but I think it must be
raw apprentices in the weather-clerks factory who experiment and learn how, in
New England, for board and clothes, and then are promoted to make weather for
countries that require a good article, and will take their custom elsewhere
if they don't get it.
-- Mark Twain
Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Miguel de Icaza on Tuesday 12 May 2009 22:41 : \____
Thanks for the long reply. I don't have much time for a detailed point-by-point
response (it would be too long), but this isn't Disney where some ma'am can
change the Beast. Microsoft wants Linux to die. If you think there is a 'new
Microsoft', then I recommend you look around the Web -- Linux sites in
particular -- and see that others disagree with you.
You've entered a different universe, but then again, your escapades in Linux
pretty much began when you went to Microsoft asking for a job (late 90s).
Since this is an unmoderated forum filled with MSFTers, you will hopefully be
able to tell the difference between voice of reason and voices of AstroTurf
(anti-Linux people in a pro-Linux forum).
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Chris Ahlstrom
this bit o' wisdom:
>> You are wasting your time. Roy and his "troops", notably Chris Ahlstrom,
>> openly attack OSS developers without having a clue about the technology
>> in hand.
>
> You are most likely right.
Hadron is completely full of shit. He posts garbage, and attaches my name
to it, for trolling purposes.
>> ALL they see is MS - and they hate MS. Which is surprising
>> since they make their money from MS SW and Adverts. Yes - Roy has MS
>> adverts generating him income on his anti Novel/Mono
>> websites. Astonishing eh?
>
> Priceless.
>
>> Best of luck in your initiatives : Linux �needs Mono more than the other
>> way around.....
>
> Thanks! I am glad that some people do like our work.
>
> Working with the developers that use Mono to write apps or port apps
> has been a great experience.
Yikes. Talk about soiling one's reputation.
--
Q: What is the sound of one cat napping?
A: Mu.
Chris Ahlstrom
this bit o' wisdom:
> Miguel de Icaza wrote:
Some more from Hadron:
YOu must do. Your tongue is up Roy's crack most of the time. You are one
of about 3 posters who defends his more non sensical and dishonest
posts. It's why you#re generally considered so dishonest and laughed at
by most non "advocates". Almost over night you gave up the truth and
became a Roy shill. Heck, you even shilled William Poaster.
Another good example of Ahlstrom's cluelessness and the disrespect he
shows other people's intelligence. In one post he is boasting about his
elite killfiles, and now he doesn't "trust" an entire server. The man is a
hypocrite. Funny how it works for everyone else.
<gqofuv$kd0$1...@news.motzarella.org>
I have done so before. Liarmutt (Chris Ahlstrom) ran away from the
thread. He had just been explaining to his posse how only idiots could
not adapt to a totally different icon and hotkey set on an app on the
same desktop. I was gobsmacked that someone who claims to be a developer
could be so clueless about the *basics* of UI design and
interoperability.
<gqou43$9ac$2...@news.motzarella.org>
It does appear that Chris Arsestrom is attached to Roy's sphincter via
his tongue. Quite amazing as he used to be quite a balanced poster. Now
its just, as you say, snip and hide and giggle while not even bothering
to argue the FACTS presented to him. He rarely, if ever, reads the posts
he replies to. It's almost as if Roy kicks him up his arse and says "go
get Liarmutt, fetch!".
<ghoqsi$4j4$1...@reader.motzarella.org>
Nice fellow you're tag-teaming with, Miguel.
--
Q: How can you tell when a Burroughs salesman is lying?
A: When his lips move.
chrisv
> chrisv wrote:
>>
>> Priceless that you would align yourself with such freedom-hating scum
>> as Hadron Quark, a known liar and anti-Linux troll. �Check out some of
>> these quotes:
>
>By showing me all of these quotes, you have decided to use a
>fallacious construct by attacking not his argument, but attacking the
>man (an ad-hominem attack).
Why did you accept, without question, Hadron's attack on 'Roy and his
"troops"'?
I sought to provide you with history and insight as to the dishonesty
and anti-freedom attitude of this "Hadron" person who trolls cola.
Does not someone talking about "freeloading" FOSS-advocates "stealing"
OSS tell you quite a lot about that person and their attitude toward
FOSS and its advocates?
>The problem with extremists (snip)
I'm not an extremist. I only want what is fair and right. One
company seeking to monopolize desktop computing and seeking to control
our data *is not* right. Having full freedom to choose our OS,
without fear of being "left out in the cold" in regards to software
availability and/or data exchange, *is* right.
Do you agree or disagree that people's data should be held and
transmitted in open-standard formats? Do you agree or disagree that
the Internet should be as usable to those who are not Microsoft
customers as it is to Microsoft customers?
>Until you continue to see the world as good vs evil or black vs white
>you will never appreciate life as many of us, humanists do.
You presume to know a lot (of negatives) about me, but you give
"Hadron" the benefit of the doubt. Interesting.
>Our world is packed with color and opportunities. From where I
>stand, your world seems filled with darkness and hate. Maybe one day
>you will break free.
I pray that "your world" does not include the likes of "Hadron", who
has advocated, time and time again, control and suppression of freedom
in computing, and who ridicules those who advocate FOSS, while
defending the Microsoft Corp on *every* issue.
"Darkness and hate"? Stick-around and read "Hadron" if you want to
see "darkness and hate", not to mention a whole lot of *shameless*
lying, used to attack Linux advocates.
>In general, you can spot people that live in this world of hate when
>they use expressions like "Micro$oft" or "Lie-berals". They have to
>resort to primitive insults because they have been jailed for too long
>between the walls of despair that prevent them from experiencing the
>world and expanding their minds.
I believe it's quite unfair of you to compare the mild disrespect of
"Micro$oft" with the epithet "Lie-berals".
Microsoft hasn't done anything that would justify the minor disrespect
of calling them "Micro$oft"?
Would it be not be fair to say that Microsoft is the enemy of Free
software?
>(snip)
chrisv
> Miguel de Icaza wrote:
>>
>> Lying troll "Hadron" Quark wrote:
>>>
>>> What you have to understand about COLA is that not one of them actually
>>> contributes to Linux or OSS.
Another Quack bald-faced lie. Documented.
>>> It's why they are calls "freetards".
>>
>> They are the internet version of chickenhawks.
Oh. My. God. Joining with "Hadron" in attacking FOSS advocates.
>Wow. Miguel has no objection to Hadron's use of the phrase "freetards".
Yet he objected to "Micro$oft", which, apperantly, is an indication of
"extemism" and that my world seems "filled with darkness and hate".
>Hell of way to treat your customers!
We've learned a lot about *this* guy, today...
Miguel de Icaza
> You've entered a different universe, but then again, your escapades in Linux
> pretty much began when you went to Microsoft asking for a job (late 90s).
Not sure what that is supposed to mean.
But as usual, you do not know much about my trip to Microsoft. I
figured
maybe I should get the record straight before you go on reporting
another
"10%" of trivia as "100%" facts.
I started writing free software in 1992, five years before I went to
Microsoft to
interview at the IE/SPARC team at the time. By that time I had
contributed
patches to Wine, I had written the Midnight Commander, I was
maintaining
libc for the SPARC, had contributed to one of the free efforts to
bring AWT to
the free Java (Kaffe), the "sawt" toolkit and was an active kernel
contributor
to Linux on the SPARC, had authored several device drivers, I was
probably
working on RAID and I had sent my first KDE patch.
I was already getting more interested in the desktop that the kernel
work.
Microsoft in 1997 sounded interesting. A good friend of mine that
was one
of the original developers that ported Sun's Java to Linux had
finished college
and went to work for Microsoft (this is back when Sun did not support
Linux,
but licensed it under NDA to whoever wanted it, and a team of folks on
irc
got together and ported it; Randy was the maintainer).
Randy knew me from my work on Linux on the SPARC, and he was working
on the IE team and invited me to interview to Microsoft. It was a
great to
meet Randy in person and Nat Friedman (another one of the early people
that
actually *contributed* to improve Linux).
There was no `open source' term at the time, but I did ask the team
manager
for them to port IE to Linux and to effectively open source it. They
did not
know much about Linux at the time, but they said "you are free to port
IE
to whatever system you want in your spare time".
Miguel
Miguel de Icaza
> Nice fellow you're tag-teaming with, Miguel.
From the quotes you posted, it seems like you do not like him, because
he does not like Roy.
I am shocked, *shocked* that someone would not like Roy's hate
mongering.
Miguel.
Hadron
Poor Gidget. He can't help being an idiot. In one post he tells people
its evil and tries to convince people. In another he makes it out like
he's some kind of lone warrior all alone in his enclave living the
spartan way with no desire to convince others.
William Poaster
of the trolls Chris Ahlstrom was heard to say:
> After takin' a swig o' grog, Miguel de Icaza belched out
> this bit o' wisdom:
>
>>> What you have to understand about COLA is that not one of them actually
>>> contributes to Linux or OSS.
>>>
>>> It's why they are calls "freetards".
>>
>> They are the internet version of chickenhawks.
>
> Wow. Miguel has no objection to Hadron's use of the phrase "freetards".
>
> Hell of way to treat your customers!
Apparently he works for Novell (according to a Wiki). I stopped using SuSE
when Novell joined with M$. And IMO it was a *far* better product when it
*was* SuSE, before being taken over by Novell. IIRC shortly after, SUSE 10
had some problems when they changed the application updating manager from
YaST to some other package manager, so I didn't take much pushing to
change to another distro.
--
It IS because of him and two other useless people in particular
(CBFalconer and Harold "old school" Stevens (probably both Willy nyms)
that I started to drift from the Ubuntu fan boy zone.
Hadron - Message-ID: <gdl55d$lc2$1...@registered.motzarella.org>
Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
Miguel,
You are trying to characterise us as 'binary' extremists (right|wrong) when in
fact your simplistic labeling mechanism is a case of applying hypocrisy.
Think about it.
You and your ilk (pardon the wording) have spent the past couple of years
trying to embargo our voice, describing my site as though it was some
verboten "Nazi" campaign.
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Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Miguel de Icaza on Wednesday 13 May 2009 16:08 : \____
> Hello,
>
>> You've entered a different universe, but then again, your escapades in Linux
>> pretty much began when you went to Microsoft asking for a job (late 90s).
>
> Not sure what that is supposed to mean.
>
> But as usual, you do not know much about my trip to Microsoft. I
> figured
> maybe I should get the record straight before you go on reporting
> another
> "10%" of trivia as "100%" facts.
"In summer of 1997, he was interviewed by Microsoft for a job in the Internet
Explorer Unix team (to work on a SPARC port), but lacked the university degree
required to obtain a work H-1B visa."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_de_icaza
Wikipedia is not always accurate; if it's not, let's correct it, shall we? :-)
> I started writing free software in 1992, five years before I went to
> Microsoft to
> interview at the IE/SPARC team at the time. By that time I had
> contributed
> patches to Wine, I had written the Midnight Commander, I was
> maintaining
> libc for the SPARC, had contributed to one of the free efforts to
> bring AWT to
> the free Java (Kaffe), the "sawt" toolkit and was an active kernel
> contributor
> to Linux on the SPARC, had authored several device drivers, I was
> probably
> working on RAID and I had sent my first KDE patch.
Yes, I know about that.
> I was already getting more interested in the desktop that the kernel
> work.
>
> Microsoft in 1997 sounded interesting. A good friend of mine that
> was one
> of the original developers that ported Sun's Java to Linux had
> finished college
> and went to work for Microsoft (this is back when Sun did not support
> Linux,
> but licensed it under NDA to whoever wanted it, and a team of folks on
> irc
> got together and ported it; Randy was the maintainer).
>
> Randy knew me from my work on Linux on the SPARC, and he was working
> on the IE team and invited me to interview to Microsoft. It was a
> great to
> meet Randy in person and Nat Friedman (another one of the early people
> that
> actually *contributed* to improve Linux).
>
> There was no `open source' term at the time, but I did ask the team
> manager
> for them to port IE to Linux and to effectively open source it. They
> did not
> know much about Linux at the time, but they said "you are free to port
> IE
> to whatever system you want in your spare time".
Thanks. That clarifies some more, but I already knew that you had written some
Free software prior to the interview. In your interview with Christian you
talked about using GNU, but I'm not so sure to what extent you worked with
Linux. I know you did some UNIX.
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William Poaster
of the trolls Chris Ahlstrom was heard to say:
> After takin' a swig o' grog, Miguel de Icaza belched out
> this bit o' wisdom:
>
>> I do not think that Linux on the desktop is keeping folks at Microsoft
>> awake at night. Our market share is still very small, we are deeply
>> fragmented and our quality control is terrible.
>
> Speak for yourself.
>
> Most projects I use are (subjectively) less buggy than most Microsoft
> software I have used. Many of the projects I use come with self-tests.
>
> When quality-control numbers are bandied about in the industry,
> open-source comes out ahead of commercial.
So, he dosn't think that Linux on the desktop is keeping folks at
Micro$oft awake at night, huh..
http://www.osnews.com/story/21035/Ballmer_Linux_Bigger_Competitor_than_Apple
http://ostatic.com/blog/microsoft-looks-for-open-source-desktop-strategy-czar
>> We have competing
>> projects, distributions, packages and ABIs. ISVs have a hard time
>> targeting the Linux desktop due to these.
>
> I agree, somewhat. The more important factor by far is the 800-pound
> gorilla in the room -- Microsoft.
>
>> Sadly, MacOS has taken the spot that I wish GNOME or KDE had taken.
>
> It wasn't "MacOS". It was Apple. A company focussed on a single line of
> products.
--
William Poaster
of the trolls Chris Ahlstrom was heard to say:
> After takin' a swig o' grog, chrisv belched out
Tells you a lot about him, IMO. Posts through 'googlegroups' too. You'd
think Novel would let him use a proper news provider!
http://improve-usenet.org/
William Poaster
of the trolls chrisv was heard to say:
That, or 'M$' is used quite often throughout usenet by all kinds of
people, so IMO "live in this world of hate when they use expressions like
"Micro$oft" is just BS.
> Would it be not be fair to say that Microsoft is the enemy of Free
> software?
>
>>(snip)
--
Peter Köhlmann
> On Wed, 13 May 2009 11:24:39 -0400, above the shrieking, FUDding &
> whining of the trolls Chris Ahlstrom was heard to say:
>
>> After takin' a swig o' grog, Miguel de Icaza belched out
>> this bit o' wisdom:
>>
>>>> What you have to understand about COLA is that not one of them
>>>> actually contributes to Linux or OSS.
>>>>
>>>> It's why they are calls "freetards".
>>>
>>> They are the internet version of chickenhawks.
>>
>> Wow. Miguel has no objection to Hadron's use of the phrase
>> "freetards".
>>
>> Hell of way to treat your customers!
>
> Apparently he works for Novell (according to a Wiki). I stopped using
> SuSE when Novell joined with M$. And IMO it was a *far* better product
> when it *was* SuSE, before being taken over by Novell.
I don't think so. It is still better (in my opinion) than for example
Ubuntu
And I just don't believe that "in bed with MS" bullshit. The distro has
not been harmed in any way since then when Novell had their agreement with
MS. And OpenSuSE is one of the major distros which keep "open source" and
"adhearance to the GPL" viable. They, like Ubuntu, Debian, Fedora and
several other distros, adamantly refuse to include the "cdrecord-suite"
from Jörg Schilling, which is incompatible with the GPL because of the
licence changes Schilling did, and instead include the "cdrkit" which is
GPL compatible
They also don't have non-open stuff in the base distro, you need to
download an extra non-OSS DVD or set up the non-OSS repo in the package
manager
> IIRC shortly
> after, SUSE 10 had some problems when they changed the application
> updating manager from YaST to some other package manager, so I didn't
> take much pushing to change to another distro.
>
Those problems are long things of the past.
And no, I don't think that Mono is really "problematic". It is just
another tool. And it is under GPL.
--
All things are possible, except skiing thru a revolving door.
Sinister Midget
> After takin' a swig o' grog, Miguel de Icaza belched out
> this bit o' wisdom:
>
>>> What you have to understand about COLA is that not one of them actually
>>> contributes to Linux or OSS.
>>>
>>> It's why they are calls "freetards".
>>
>> They are the internet version of chickenhawks.
>
> Wow. Miguel has no objection to Hadron's use of the phrase "freetards".
>
> Hell of way to treat your customers!
Miguel must be trying to alienate the last of the SuSE users by
aligning himself with the self-appointed "linux culling committee"
chairman and hater of all that is free and open. I'm not sure his
employer would approve, but that's something they'll have to deal with
whenever the time for layoffs comes around. At least he'll have his
resume padded with experience trolling when it's time to make the
lateral move to his employer's employer, M$.
--
Windows? WINDOWS?!? Hahahahahahehehe.....
Miguel de Icaza
> > I do not think that Linux on the desktop is keeping folks at Microsoft
> > awake at night. Our market share is still very small, we are deeply
> > fragmented and our quality control is terrible.
>
> Speak for yourself.
It does not matter what my experience or yours is. What matters are
the actual market share numbers. Linux is still tiny.
Of course I want to change that, and that is why I have worked for the
last 17 years in open source software.
chrisv
Do you *really* think that "he does not like Roy" is the reason that
"Hadron" is so despised in here?
"Hadron" openly advocates restrictions (beyond those stiplulated in
the GPL) on what people may do with FOSS, on the grounds that there's
"too much choice".
"Hadron" supports Microsoft on *every* issue, and denies that they
have used unethical practices to obtain and maintain their desktop OS
monopoly. (Indeed, he denies that any cush monopoly ever existed.)
"Hadron" ridicules OSS advocates as just "wanting something for free",
and denies the OSS advantages of freedom, choice, and efficiency.
"Hadron" regularly attacks Linux advocates, trying to portray them as
unreasonable or ridiculous. To do this, he *lies* blatantly, claiming
things like the advocates think that Linux is "perfect" or "bug free".
"Hadron" regularly calls good, honest, people "liars", when, in fact,
it is "Hadron" who is the shameless, documented, liar. In his attacks
against the advocates, he supports, and is supported by, a cadre of
anonymous trolls, all of whom are unapologetically anti-Linux.
Miguel de Icaza
> >By showing me all of these quotes, you have decided to use a
> >fallacious construct by attacking not his argument, but attacking the
> >man (an ad-hominem attack).
>
> Why did you accept, without question, Hadron's attack on 'Roy and his
> "troops"'?
You did not pay attention to anything I wrote, please re-read it.
> I sought to provide you with history and insight as to the dishonesty
> and anti-freedom attitude of this "Hadron" person who trolls cola.
Fine, but it is off-topic.
All you do with an ad-hominem attack is trying to distract from
whatever point is being discussed and turn the attention, not to the
arguments, but to the person.
It is the equivalent of saying "But he is ugly".
> >The problem with extremists (snip)
>
> I'm not an extremist. I only want what is fair and right. One
> company seeking to monopolize desktop computing and seeking to control
> our data *is not* right.
Yet you seek black and white answers. You closed with one your post
and demand and answer, I am just not interested in that level of
discussion.
I am not sure how you made the quantum leap from a discussion about
GNote into control of data.
And I have no idea what data you are talking about that the Great
Satan is trying to Control.
> Having full freedom to choose our OS,
> without fear of being "left out in the cold" in regards to software
> availability and/or data exchange, *is* right.
Yup, very much what I have been advocating for years.
> You presume to know a lot (of negatives) about me, but you give
> "Hadron" the benefit of the doubt. Interesting.
You launched yourself into an ad-hominem attack, Hadron merely stated
the obvious.
> I pray that "your world" does not include the likes of "Hadron", who
> has advocated, time and time again, control and suppression of freedom
> in computing, and who ridicules those who advocate FOSS, while
> defending the Microsoft Corp on *every* issue.
This is getting offtopic with GNote and language choice.
I would be curious to see how he advocated the "suppression of
freedom".
One man's "advocate for FOSS" is another man's Poisonous People:
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645
Microsoft has its share of defects. But rehashing defects from 15
years ago is hardly making a point.
> "Darkness and hate"? Stick-around and read "Hadron" if you want to
> see "darkness and hate", not to mention a whole lot of *shameless*
> lying, used to attack Linux advocates.
I am not sure that I will hang around here for long. It is not
possible to have a discussion here without someone attacking someone
else.
>
> >In general, you can spot people that live in this world of hate when
> >they use expressions like "Micro$oft" or "Lie-berals". They have to
> >resort to primitive insults because they have been jailed for too long
> >between the walls of despair that prevent them from experiencing the
> >world and expanding their minds.
>
> I believe it's quite unfair of you to compare the mild disrespect of
> "Micro$oft" with the epithet "Lie-berals".
They are both primitive insults.
The sign of shallow arguments.
> Would it be not be fair to say that Microsoft is the enemy of Free
> software?
See above re: "extremism"
Miguel de Icaza
>
> Yet he objected to "Micro$oft", which, apperantly, is an indication of
> "extemism" and that my world seems "filled with darkness and hate".
Your reading comprehension skills are not strong. I am not
surprised.
This is what I actually said:
>In general, you can spot people that live in this world of hate when
>they use expressions like "Micro$oft" or "Lie-berals". They have to
>resort to primitive insults because they have been jailed for too long
>between the walls of despair that prevent them from experiencing the
>world and expanding their minds.
Petty tricks and fallacies merely lower your credibility.
Snit
10:28 AM:
> Miguel de Icaza wrote:
>
>>> Nice fellow you're tag-teaming with, Miguel.
>>
>> From the quotes you posted, it seems like you do not like him, because
>> he does not like Roy.
>>
>> I am shocked, *shocked* that someone would not like Roy's hate
>> mongering.
>
> Do you *really* think that "he does not like Roy" is the reason that
> "Hadron" is so despised in here?
>
> "Hadron" openly advocates restrictions (beyond those stiplulated in
> the GPL) on what people may do with FOSS, on the grounds that there's
> "too much choice".
Meanwhile, I support *more* choice for the users and you use that as an
excuse to dislike me.
Odd. On one hand you "despise" someone for being against choice, but on the
other hand you clearly do not like me because I support choices you do not
understand - specifically the choice to have a well designed and consistent
UI (configurable by the *user*).
Very, very odd.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
William Poaster
of the trolls chrisv was heard to say:
> Miguel de Icaza wrote:
He should look in other groups where Hadron posted his drivel. He's either
derided or ignored in those too, so that blows his "you do not like him, because
he does not like Roy." garbage out of the water.
<quote>
Hadron must not work since he seems to be posting 24/7 on a lot of
groups. If he does have a job and he is doing this at work he should
be walked out the door post haste.
He is a self-proclaimed authority on everything, yet seems to know
nothing but how to insult people.
Major self-important asshole.
<unquote>
Bill Baka - alt.os.linux.ubuntu
Message-ID: <3bFBj.316$Rq1...@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com>
<quote>
I asked why do you bother
with Linux seeing how you seem to prefer apple or MS?
<unquote>
Stephan Rose - alt.os.linux.ubuntu
Message-ID: <DoCdnQ1r36i7Bx_a...@giganews.com>
<quote>
However, I'm not the one trolling here, nor a confirmed liar, troll,
MS-shill and waste of bandwidth. �What have you ever contributed to the
world apart from your cretinous babblings in various newsgroups (where you
are mostly killfiled)?
Perhaps it's time to dump you into the killfile where trolls and cretins
belong...
<unquote>
Christopher Hunter - alt.os.linux.ubuntu
Message-ID: <xczgj.154680$cJ3....@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>
<quote>
Simply PLONK Hadron. �Have the disposition be 'mark read'.
That way the article will not be downloaded, and the only thing
that will show up is the existance of the nuisance. �:-)
<unquote>
CBFalconer - alt.os.linux.ubuntu
And so on, & so on.....
And then there's this:
<quote>
The great majority of Windows application SW
is eons better than it's OSS copy or alternative.
<unquote>
Hadron
Message-ID: <fkga6j$ure$1...@registered.motzarella.org>
Hadron is a *self-confessed* troll, & destroyed his *own* credibility in
many groups. Or maybe this "Miguel de Icaza" likes trolls.
chrisv
>> >Wow. �Miguel has no objection to Hadron's use of the phrase
>> >"freetards".
>>
>> Yet he objected to "Micro$oft", which, apperantly, is an indication of
>> "extemism" and that my world seems "filled with darkness and hate".
>
> Your reading comprehension skills are not strong. I am not surprised.
Actually, my "reading comprehension skills" are fine, and you're being
dishonest and hypocritical.
> This is what I actually said:
>
>>In general, you can spot people that live in this world of hate when
>>they use expressions like "Micro$oft" or "Lie-berals". They have to
>>resort to primitive insults because they have been jailed for too long
>>between the walls of despair that prevent them from experiencing the
>>world and expanding their minds.
That's not all you said, but directly relevant is your decrying my use of
"Micro$oft" while tacitly approving of terms like "freetard" and
"ckickenhawk".
Also, you've attempted to marginalize the advocates in here as
"extremists" who only see the world in "black and white" terms, which is
grossly unfair.
There is nothing wrong with a strong preference for freedom and choice
over the domination and consumer-hostile policies of the Microsoft Corp.
It may not be "black and white", but there's a *major* difference in "the
shade of gray" of those alternatives.
> Petty tricks and fallacies merely lower your credibility.
Unfortunately for you and your ad-hominem attack, I have resorted to
neither. You should be more concerned with your own credibility.
Ezekiel
"Miguel de Icaza" <miguel....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:54634db3-7456-452f...@g19g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
Hello,
You worked for the past 17 years on open source software. Ask any of the
self-proclaimed "advocates" here what their contribution to open source
software is. What applications, testing, documentation, code, etc has
Schestowitz, Ahlstrom. midget, chrisv or anyone else here contributed to
OSS.
The answer is ZERO. They don't have the time to contribute to OSS but they
have more than enough time to attack and criticize those who do contribute.
Those who contribute nothing criticize those who do contribute if they think
that the (free) contribution isn't the right kind of contribution.
It's quite remarkable actually.
JEDIDIAH
>
> "Miguel de Icaza" <miguel....@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:54634db3-7456-452f...@g19g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
> Hello,
>
>>> > I do not think that Linux on the desktop is keeping folks at Microsoft
>>> > awake at night. Our market share is still very small, we are deeply
>>> > fragmented and our quality control is terrible.
>>>
>>> Speak for yourself.
>>
>>It does not matter what my experience or yours is. What matters are
>>the actual market share numbers. Linux is still tiny.
>>
>
>>Of course I want to change that, and that is why I have worked for the
>>last 17 years in open source software.
>
> You worked for the past 17 years on open source software. Ask any of the
This sort of approach would work a bit better if the person in question
didn't try to turn themselves into a sort of petty bridge troll or insisted
on making Linux primarily a platform for running Microsoft controlled
technology.
Unix users not blind followers... fancy that.
> self-proclaimed "advocates" here what their contribution to open source
> software is. What applications, testing, documentation, code, etc has
> Schestowitz, Ahlstrom. midget, chrisv or anyone else here contributed to
> OSS.
>
> The answer is ZERO. They don't have the time to contribute to OSS but they
> have more than enough time to attack and criticize those who do contribute.
> Those who contribute nothing criticize those who do contribute if they think
> that the (free) contribution isn't the right kind of contribution.
>
> It's quite remarkable actually.
...and before that we criticized Microsoft without being Microsoft
employees. See how that works?
Unless you want to claim that somehow Microsoft is fundementally
a different company than it was before, all of it's past misdeeds are
very relevant. They call into question whether or not you want to
follow their lead in any respect.
This is one of those situations that points to the value of all
of that excessive choice and chaos that some Lemmings like to whine
about.
--
The social cost of suing/prosecuting individuals |||
for non-commercial copyright infringement far outweighs / | \
the social value of copyright to begin with.
chrisv
>> >By showing me all of these quotes, you have decided to use a
>> >fallacious construct by attacking not his argument, but attacking the
>> >man �(an ad-hominem attack).
>>
>> Why did you accept, without question, Hadron's attack on 'Roy and his
>> "troops"'?
>
>You did not pay attention to anything I wrote, please re-read it.
I paid plenty of attention. Along with a few actual points, I noticed
lots of raving about "extremism", and false accuations of "thinking in
black and white" and "living in a world of hate". I see no need to
read any of it again.
>> I sought to provide you with history and insight as to the dishonesty
>> and anti-freedom attitude of this "Hadron" person who trolls cola.
>
>Fine, but it is off-topic.
>
>All you do with an ad-hominem attack is trying to distract from
>whatever point is being discussed and turn the attention, not to the
>arguments, but to the person.
What was this "point being discussed", beyond cola advocates being
attacked as being "without a clue" and "filled with hate for
Microsoft" and "hypocritical for accepting pro-Microsoft advertising"?
It was nothing *but* an ad-hominem attack on the advocates, coming
from a troll who is known to lie to attack the advocates. And you
chastise *me* for an ad-hominem attack? For shame.
>It is the equivalent of saying "But he is ugly".
No, it's saying "nothing he says about the cola advocates has any
credibility".
>> >The problem with extremists (snip)
>>
>> I'm not an extremist. �I only want what is fair and right. �One
>> company seeking to monopolize desktop computing and seeking to control
>> our data *is not* right. �
>
>Yet you seek black and white answers.
Not always. Sometimes.
Requesting a direct, evasion-free "yes or no" answer to a simple
question is *not* necessarily a bad thing.
>You closed with one your post
>and demand and answer, I am just not interested in that level of
>discussion.
In other words, you want to evade questions which may reveal your
biases.
>I am not sure how you made the quantum leap from a discussion about
>GNote into control of data.
>
>And I have no idea what data you are talking about that the Great
>Satan is trying to Control.
To quote John McEnroe, you *cannot* be serious.
>> Having full freedom to choose our OS,
>> without fear of being "left out in the cold" in regards to software
>> availability and/or data exchange, *is* right.
>
>Yup, very much what I have been advocating for years.
Good.
>> You presume to know a lot (of negatives) about me, but you give
>> "Hadron" the benefit of the doubt. �Interesting.
>
>You launched yourself into an ad-hominem attack, Hadron merely stated
>the obvious.
LOL
> ALL they see is MS - and they hate MS. Which is surprising
> since they make their money from MS SW and Adverts. Yes - Roy has MS
> adverts generating him income on his anti Novel/Mono
> websites. Astonishing eh?
That's not "stating the obvious", buddy, and you claiming that it is
is treading very closely to what I would call a "lie".
Hadron's "ALL they see is MS - and they hate MS" is bald lie, and
indicative the of the "black and white" thinking that you so abhor.
Also, there's nothing "astonishing" or hypocritical about accepting
pro-MS advertising on a pro-FOSS Web site. Indeed, what would be
hypocritical (or "priceless") would be for a FOSS advocate to practice
censorship by rejecting advertising that did not match his or her
agenda.
>> I pray that "your world" does not include the likes of "Hadron", who
>> has advocated, time and time again, control and suppression of freedom
>> in computing, and who ridicules those who advocate FOSS, while
>> defending the Microsoft Corp on *every* issue.
>
>This is getting offtopic with GNote and language choice.
>
>I would be curious to see how he advocated the "suppression of
>freedom".
He believes FOSS should be controlled. He believes it's use should be
restricted, with only "approved" projects being released. Ostensibly
this is to "focus for the good of Linux", but, as you must know, it is
entirely antithetical to FOSS.
>Microsoft has its share of defects. But rehashing defects from 15
>years ago is hardly making a point.
Who is doing that? The closest thing we have to that in here are
posts from trolls, who google the planet for proof the "Linux is not
perfect". This practice, of googling-for and posting Linux-problem
cases in the Linux advocacy group, is fully-endorsed by your friend
"Hadron", BTW...
>> "Darkness and hate"? �Stick-around and read "Hadron" if you want to
>> see "darkness and hate", not to mention a whole lot of *shameless*
>> lying, used to attack Linux advocates.
>
>I am not sure that I will hang around here for long. It is not
>possible to have a discussion here without someone attacking someone
>else.
Indeed. Particularly if you advocate Linux, you will be quickly
attacked by "Hadron" and other trolls.
>> >In general, you can spot people that live in this world of hate when
>> >they use expressions like "Micro$oft" or "Lie-berals". � They have to
>> >resort to primitive insults because they have been jailed for too long
>> >between the walls of despair that prevent them from experiencing the
>> >world and expanding their minds.
>>
>> I believe it's quite unfair of you to compare the mild disrespect of
>> "Micro$oft" with the epithet "Lie-berals".
>
>They are both primitive insults.
>
>The sign of shallow arguments.
Sounds to me like you're thinking in terms of "black and white", guy.
One is merely a weak sign of disrespect, easily ignored in context.
>> Would it be not be fair to say that Microsoft is the enemy of Free
>> software?
>
>See above re: "extremism"
No, you are wrong. It's not "extreme" at all to consider them
*exactly* that. Their motives are obovious, and the evidence
overwhelming.
We do not live in Nirvana. Selfish, unethical, and even criminal
things *do* happen. It is not "extreme" to recognize this.
Ezekiel
"JEDIDIAH" <je...@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
news:slrnh0m65...@nomad.mishnet...
> On 2009-05-13, Ezekiel <nowher...@zeke.com> wrote:
>>
>> "Miguel de Icaza" <miguel....@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:54634db3-7456-452f...@g19g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
>> Hello,
>>
>>>> > I do not think that Linux on the desktop is keeping folks at
>>>> > Microsoft
>>>> > awake at night. Our market share is still very small, we are deeply
>>>> > fragmented and our quality control is terrible.
>>>>
>>>> Speak for yourself.
>>>
>>>It does not matter what my experience or yours is. What matters are
>>>the actual market share numbers. Linux is still tiny.
>>>
>>
>>>Of course I want to change that, and that is why I have worked for the
>>>last 17 years in open source software.
>>
>> You worked for the past 17 years on open source software. Ask any of the
>
> This sort of approach would work a bit better if the person in question
> didn't try to turn themselves into a sort of petty bridge troll
So the best you can do is to resort to name calling.
> or insisted on making Linux primarily a platform for running
> Microsoft controlled technology.
A worthless opinion from someone who has no clout or experience in the
matter. Others who are better informed then some anonymous COLA poster have
a different opinion.
> Unix users not blind followers... fancy that.
Says who? Just because you make some ridiculous statement like this doesn't
make it true.
>> self-proclaimed "advocates" here what their contribution to open source
>> software is. What applications, testing, documentation, code, etc has
>> Schestowitz, Ahlstrom. midget, chrisv or anyone else here contributed to
>> OSS.
>>
>> The answer is ZERO. They don't have the time to contribute to OSS but
>> they
>> have more than enough time to attack and criticize those who do
>> contribute.
>> Those who contribute nothing criticize those who do contribute if they
>> think
>> that the (free) contribution isn't the right kind of contribution.
>>
>> It's quite remarkable actually.
>
> ...and before that we criticized Microsoft without being Microsoft
> employees. See how that works?
I see exactly how this works... you make ridiculous statements in some sort
of riddle format and somehow you think you're making a valid point.
> Unless you want to claim that somehow Microsoft is fundementally
> a different company than it was before, all of it's past misdeeds are
> very relevant.
Why -- Just because *you* say so?
> They call into question whether or not you want to
> follow their lead in any respect.
This has nothing about following their lead. It's about a bunch of freetards
who contribute nothing criticizing those who do contribute because they
don't like the *free* contributions that others are making. Not everything
revolves around Microsoft.
> This is one of those situations that points to the value of all
> of that excessive choice and chaos that some Lemmings like to whine
> about.
And as usual... choice is okay as long as it's a choice that the freetards
approve of. If someone works on or contributes a choice that the freetards
don't like (their choice) then they get attacked.
none of your buisiness
Roy
i do not think that this is actually Miguel posting. i think it might be an
imposter. the last time Miguel posted here (& had a discussion with homer)
his originating ip address was from Novell. these recent postings are coming
from a Comcast customer in the northeast (flatfish perhaps). i have seen
this address in several trolls postings in the last couple of years.
:~$ whois 24.60.188.95
Comcast Cable Communications Holdings, Inc RW2-NORTHEAST-1 (NET-24-60-0-0-1)
24.60.0.0 - 24.63.255.255
Comcast Cable Communications Holdings, Inc NEW-ENGLAND-4 (NET-24-60-0-0-2)
24.60.0.0 - 24.61.255.255
# ARIN WHOIS database, last updated 2009-05-12 19:10
# Enter ? for additional hints on searching ARIN's WHOIS database.
Hadron
> Hello,
>
>> You've entered a different universe, but then again, your escapades in Linux
>> pretty much began when you went to Microsoft asking for a job (late 90s).
>
> Not sure what that is supposed to mean.
>
> But as usual, you do not know much about my trip to Microsoft. I
> figured
> maybe I should get the record straight before you go on reporting
> another
> "10%" of trivia as "100%" facts.
>
> I started writing free software in 1992, five years before I went to
> Microsoft to
> interview at the IE/SPARC team at the time. By that time I had
> contributed
> patches to Wine, I had written the Midnight Commander, I was
> maintaining
> libc for the SPARC, had contributed to one of the free efforts to
> bring AWT to
> the free Java (Kaffe), the "sawt" toolkit and was an active kernel
> contributor
> to Linux on the SPARC, had authored several device drivers, I was
> probably
> working on RAID and I had sent my first KDE patch.
Ask Roy what he did. I can tell you. He sponged off the UK Tax Payer in
an extended University stay and decided he didn't want a real job. He
now spends his time filling this group and forums with contradictory
posts which basically lie and exaggerate his anti MS agenda.
Tell the little shit nothing. It's a bit like Jorg Schilling who was
insulted and criticised by Chris Ahlstrom here. The COLA crowd actually
tried tearing Schilling to pieces despite his considerable contributions
to the OSS movement.
Hadron
> After takin' a swig o' grog, chrisv belched out
> this bit o' wisdom:
>
>> Miguel de Icaza wrote:
>>
>>> "True Linux advocate" Hadron Quark wrote:
>>>>
>>>> You are wasting your time. Roy and his "troops", notably Chris Ahlstrom,
>>>> openly attack OSS developers without having a clue about the technology
>>>> in hand.
>>>
>>>You are most likely right.
>>
>> No, "Hadron" is most likely lying, as usual.
>>
>>>> ALL they see is MS - and they hate MS. Which is surprising
>>>> since they make their money from MS SW and Adverts. Yes - Roy has MS
>>>> adverts generating him income on his anti Novel/Mono
>>>> websites. Astonishing eh?
>>>
>>>Priceless.
>>
>> Priceless that you would align yourself with such freedom-hating scum
>> as Hadron Quark, a known liar and anti-Linux troll. Check out some of
>> these quotes:
Abti Linux troll? I love and use Linux. What I hate is sycophantic, hate
mongering little frauds like you.
>>
>> 'But then the COLA freeloaders, amongst others, steal the code, branch
>> it and then make their own "Free" alternative.' - "True Linux
>> advocate" Hadron Quark
>>
>> "Thanks beardies - a lot of people will become very rich from your
>> hard work." - "True Linux advocate" Hadron Quark
>>
>> "You think installing Edubuntu on cracked old machines for cheapskates
>> is good advocacy?" - "True Linux advocate" Hadron Quark
>>
>> "Apparently it's called choice : I call it a diluted mess designed to
>> confuse and put real people off. A bit like the crazy distro dance."
>> - "True Linux advocate" Hadron Quark
It seems MIgual agrees. As do many people who really want Linux to
succeed.
>>
>> "Watch all the OSS programmers go shooting over to SUSE now that the
>> money will start rolling in. LOL." - "True Linux advocate" Hadron
>> Quark, November 2006
Heh, and guess what? Those that didn't are now begging here of all places.
> Nice fellow you're tag-teaming with, Miguel.
It pretty much sums you up.
Didn't you call an OSS developer a "cunt" and "fuckhead" recently?
Didn't you make a tit of yourself aggressively attacking Jorg Schilling?
Get lost Liarmutt : you're a dishonest little suck up. Are you angry
that Miguel is calling Roy out for what he is : a hate mongering scandal
monger.
Still, no surprise that you would come yipping along to suck up to your
master Roy.
Hadron
"Shocking" is a word I like to use to describe it. More so when you
consider Chris Ahsltrom actively tried to character assassinate Jorg
Schilling AND actively boasts about how much money he makes from MS SW.
Hadron
Bingo. COLA is not interested in "obvious". They deal in ant MS hatred
and propaganda while contributing NOTHING back. Few are in any way
competent programmers or developers so have little if any understanding
of the rigours of good SW development, QA, maintenance and release
management.
>
>> I pray that "your world" does not include the likes of "Hadron", who
>> has advocated, time and time again, control and suppression of freedom
>> in computing, and who ridicules those who advocate FOSS, while
>> defending the Microsoft Corp on *every* issue.
>
> This is getting offtopic with GNote and language choice.
He is of course talking complete and utter nonsense. I do advocate good
OSS and I use good OSS. What I am against is the dilution of projects
by know nothing political wannabes who just make a mess and confuse the
already confused Linux market.
>
> I would be curious to see how he advocated the "suppression of
> freedom".
I didn't. You will find many posts from extolling the virtues of emacs,
gimp and other OSS projects. I use Debian and love it. I recently posted
my positive findings using VirtualBox to run Vista on Debian. These guys
are paranoid lunatics.
Frankly I think you're wasting your time arguing with them. It's not
unknown for certain of them to target the individuals outside of COLA.
Chris Ahlstrom
this bit o' wisdom:
> Hello,
>
>> Nice fellow you're tag-teaming with, Miguel.
>
> From the quotes you posted, it seems like you do not like him, because
> he does not like Roy.
>
> I am shocked, *shocked* that someone would not like Roy's hate
> mongering.
Roy doesn't "hate monger". Maybe "dislike monger". Roy wears his heart
on his sleeve, and overreaches sometimes. But even his worst behavior is
a whole world less obnoxious than some of the garbage that Microsoft
proponents (and Microsoft themselves) have pulled.
I don't like Hadron because he is fundamentally dishonest and perverse.
He likes to say that I "call people 'fuckheads' and 'cunts'", as if I did
that regularly and to a lot of people. Nah. I use the phrase "the lying
Hadron cunt" for Hadron only, and it is mostly a 'pun' on the Large Hadron
Collider. And I called some blogger quoted here a 'fuckhead' because his
ideas were incredibly silly and wrong-header. Then I called Hadron that,
simply because he is an incredible fuckhead. Which should be obvious from
the quotes (a very small sample of his egregious insults).
So, three instances of usage of those words as insult.
To top it off, Hadron gets "defended" by some anonymous clown who sent, as
"Nomen Nescio", an email to my /wife/ telling her that I "continually" use
the word "cunt". Imagine being defended by a sneaky little Eddie-Haskel
shit who has to "tell on me" to my wife, as if she were my mommy.
Yeah, Miguel (if that is /really/ who you are, and I doubt it), keep
"hanging with Hadron". Just remember to use the decontamination chamber
afterward.
--
You learn to write as if to someone else because NEXT YEAR YOU WILL BE
"SOMEONE ELSE."
Sinister Midget III
> Hello,
>
>> Nice fellow you're tag-teaming with, Miguel.
>
> From the quotes you posted, it seems like you do not like him, because
> he does not like Roy.
He doesn't just "not like Roy". He doesn't like us, he doesn't like
freedom, he doesn't like honesty, he doesn't like himself by all
appearances.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Even the Holodeck women turn me down: Wesley
----------------------------------------------------------------
Eee PC900 16G SSD 2G RAM Ubuntu 9.04
----------------------------------------------------------------
Sinister Midget III
>
>> > I do not think that Linux on the desktop is keeping folks at Microsoft
>> > awake at night. Our market share is still very small, we are deeply
>> > fragmented and our quality control is terrible.
>>
>> Speak for yourself.
>
> It does not matter what my experience or yours is. What matters are
> the actual market share numbers. Linux is still tiny.
Market share is a measure of sales. Linux sales won't reach the levels
of the monopoly's sales probably ever. Because a large chunk of linux
use isn't through the sales floor.
Nobody can evaluate the real numbers with the hope of any accuracy. But
even modest attempts have it used multiples over what sales would
suggest.
I'm sorry if you don't like that fact. I realize you work for a
company, and your need is for the company to succeed and make everybody
in it successful right along with them. But that doesn't change the
fact that the majority of linux users don't get it through boxed sales,
but by downloads, either of their own or from friends.
> Of course I want to change that, and that is why I have worked for the
> last 17 years in open source software.
You may have worked for 17 years in it, but your goal is still to push
it commercially. There's nothing wrong with that. But realize you can't
dismiss those of us who aren't attuned to your goals.
Without our numbers your job could well be over. We support the people
that support you. They write the software. We give them monetary
support, snippets of code, suggestions, bug reports, and in some cases
give them large portions of the code they use. We support them
verbally, financially and morally. That's not to say we're the sole
reason they're doing what they do. But we're an important part of all
of it, one way or another.
They give you something you can shape into a product that your company
can sell. Without *their* code, you guys would have to hire far more
people, and I'm not even sure you could pull it off then.
We're all in this together, so stop pretending we aren't an important
part of the ecosystem you claim to be trying to further.
I'd also further suggest you be careful about aligning yourself with
some of the more abrasive persons hanging around in this group. They're
troublemakers, their sole goal being all disruption of any attempt at
advocacy in this group. But that's just advice from me. Feel free to
ignore it or heed it. It won't be my loss or gain either way.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Originality is the art of concealing your sources.
Hadron
> On 2009-05-13, Miguel de Icaza <miguel....@gmail.com> claimed:
>> Hello,
>>
>>> > I do not think that Linux on the desktop is keeping folks at Microsoft
>>> > awake at night. Our market share is still very small, we are deeply
>>> > fragmented and our quality control is terrible.
>>>
>>> Speak for yourself.
>>
>> It does not matter what my experience or yours is. What matters are
>> the actual market share numbers. Linux is still tiny.
>
> Market share is a measure of sales. Linux sales won't reach the levels
> of the monopoly's sales probably ever. Because a large chunk of linux
> use isn't through the sales floor.
>
> Nobody can evaluate the real numbers with the hope of any accuracy. But
> even modest attempts have it used multiples over what sales would
> suggest.
Only if you're an idiot as you clearly are.
The rest of us read market share as the relative figures of Linux v
Windows v Mac installations. And clearly Linux is much less than, say,
2%.
Why do you hide behind silly word games when making your ridiculous
claims?
Hadron
> On 2009-05-13, Miguel de Icaza <miguel....@gmail.com> claimed:
>> Hello,
>>
>>> Nice fellow you're tag-teaming with, Miguel.
>>
>> From the quotes you posted, it seems like you do not like him, because
>> he does not like Roy.
>
> He doesn't just "not like Roy". He doesn't like us, he doesn't like
> freedom, he doesn't like honesty, he doesn't like himself by all
> appearances.
No, I don't like MOST COLA "advocates" because your slimy, lying, nasty,
hypocritical frauds who do more harm for Linux adoption than you can
possibly imagine. This anti Novell and Mono thing is yet another example
of just that - but you're too damn stupid to realise it. Miguel does, I
do, and so do most people outside of the cesspit known as COLA.
chrisv
>We're all in this together, so stop pretending we aren't an important
>part of the ecosystem you claim to be trying to further.
Indeed.
>I'd also further suggest you be careful about aligning yourself with
>some of the more abrasive persons hanging around in this group. They're
>troublemakers, their sole goal being all disruption of any attempt at
>advocacy in this group. But that's just advice from me. Feel free to
>ignore it or heed it. It won't be my loss or gain either way.
Certainly, it would be very ill-advised to apply logic like "I think
Roy S. is unreasaonble, and so does this other guy, so this other guy
must be reasonable."
chrisv
>Yeah, Miguel (if that is /really/ who you are, and I doubt it),
It's smelling kind of fishy in here, no doubt...
Peter Köhlmann
< snip >
> Tell the little shit nothing. It's a bit like Jorg Schilling who was
> insulted and criticised by Chris Ahlstrom here. The COLA crowd actually
> tried tearing Schilling to pieces despite his considerable contributions
> to the OSS movement.
>
He currently *is* torn to pieces for constant lying in a german newsgroup.
Like Snot Michael Glasser he constantly snips questions regarding the
licence of the cdrtools and then fails to support his claims.
Which are, quite frankly, nearly as lunatic as a typical Snot Glasser
claim
--
Windows isn't unstable. It's spontaneous.
Tom Shelton
> Sinister Midget III <a...@myeeemobile.com> writes:
>
>
>
> >> Hello,
>
> >>> > I do not think that Linux on the desktop is keeping folks at Microsoft
> >>> > awake at night. Our market share is still very small, we are deeply
> >>> > fragmented and our quality control is terrible.
>
> >>> Speak for yourself.
>
> >> It does not matter what my experience or yours is. What matters are
> >> the actual market share numbers. Linux is still tiny.
>
> > Market share is a measure of sales. Linux sales won't reach the levels
> > of the monopoly's sales probably ever. Because a large chunk of linux
> > use isn't through the sales floor.
>
> > Nobody can evaluate the real numbers with the hope of any accuracy. But
> > even modest attempts have it used multiples over what sales would
> > suggest.
>
> Only if you're an idiot as you clearly are.
>
> The rest of us read market share as the relative figures of Linux v
> Windows v Mac installations. And clearly Linux is much less than, say,
> 2%.
I think that's how most people read it - but, it actually isn't the
proper definition. Technically, he is correct according to the real
definition of market share. What most people think of market share,
is actually installed base.
--
Tom Shelton
JEDIDIAH
>
> "JEDIDIAH" <je...@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
> news:slrnh0m65...@nomad.mishnet...
>> On 2009-05-13, Ezekiel <nowher...@zeke.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> "Miguel de Icaza" <miguel....@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:54634db3-7456-452f...@g19g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>>>> > I do not think that Linux on the desktop is keeping folks at
>>>>> > Microsoft
>>>>> > awake at night. Our market share is still very small, we are deeply
>>>>> > fragmented and our quality control is terrible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Speak for yourself.
>>>>
>>>>It does not matter what my experience or yours is. What matters are
>>>>the actual market share numbers. Linux is still tiny.
>>>>
>>>
>>>>Of course I want to change that, and that is why I have worked for the
>>>>last 17 years in open source software.
>>>
>>> You worked for the past 17 years on open source software. Ask any of the
>>
>> This sort of approach would work a bit better if the person in question
>> didn't try to turn themselves into a sort of petty bridge troll
>
> So the best you can do is to resort to name calling.
That's perfectly descriptive of the given situation.
What's interesting is how this bridge troll then lashed out as at
the community as it sought to route around the damage.
>
>> or insisted on making Linux primarily a platform for running
>> Microsoft controlled technology.
>
> A worthless opinion from someone who has no clout or experience in the
> matter. Others who are better informed then some anonymous COLA poster have
> a different opinion.
I may not be able to drive policy but I can certainly comment on it.
Leaving the apps that we depend on to something akin to FAT patents is
hardly something that makes a lot of sense in the long term. It's one thing
to take on those vulnerabilities when you can't avoid it and quite another
to go looking for this sort of trouble.
>
>
>> Unix users not blind followers... fancy that.
>
> Says who? Just because you make some ridiculous statement like this doesn't
> make it true.
Microsoft makes it a habit of stabbing their partners in the back. They
have a long history of this and it starts from their very beginning. Weak
handwaving won't alter the facts.
>
>
>
>>> self-proclaimed "advocates" here what their contribution to open source
>>> software is. What applications, testing, documentation, code, etc has
>>> Schestowitz, Ahlstrom. midget, chrisv or anyone else here contributed to
>>> OSS.
>>>
>>> The answer is ZERO. They don't have the time to contribute to OSS but
>>> they
>>> have more than enough time to attack and criticize those who do
>>> contribute.
>>> Those who contribute nothing criticize those who do contribute if they
>>> think
>>> that the (free) contribution isn't the right kind of contribution.
>>>
>>> It's quite remarkable actually.
>>
>> ...and before that we criticized Microsoft without being Microsoft
>> employees. See how that works?
>
> I see exactly how this works... you make ridiculous statements in some sort
> of riddle format and somehow you think you're making a valid point.
The users matter.
As a Microsoft devotee, you might not believe that. You might pay
lip service to the idea while not really believing it. Many of us of
course have different ideas.
>
>
>> Unless you want to claim that somehow Microsoft is fundementally
>> a different company than it was before, all of it's past misdeeds are
>> very relevant.
>
> Why -- Just because *you* say so?
The facts, logic and human nature say so.
>
>
>> They call into question whether or not you want to
>> follow their lead in any respect.
>
> This has nothing about following their lead. It's about a bunch of freetards
> who contribute nothing criticizing those who do contribute because they
> don't like the *free* contributions that others are making. Not everything
> revolves around Microsoft.
I don't like my chosen platform disappearing because the monopoly
bully was able to kill it. Been there, done that.
This is why it is good that Linux has some genetic diversity.
[deletia]
--
Metallica is not worth the ruination of someone |||
who has pirated their music / | \
JEDIDIAH
> Sinister Midget III <a...@myeeemobile.com> writes:
>
>> On 2009-05-13, Miguel de Icaza <miguel....@gmail.com> claimed:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>>> Nice fellow you're tag-teaming with, Miguel.
>>>
>>> From the quotes you posted, it seems like you do not like him, because
>>> he does not like Roy.
>>
>> He doesn't just "not like Roy". He doesn't like us, he doesn't like
>> freedom, he doesn't like honesty, he doesn't like himself by all
>> appearances.
>
> No, I don't like MOST COLA "advocates" because your slimy, lying, nasty,
> hypocritical frauds who do more harm for Linux adoption than you can
> possibly imagine. This anti Novell and Mono thing is yet another example
> of just that - but you're too damn stupid to realise it. Miguel does, I
Let's see... Microsoft just sued one of it's competitors over a number
of things including of all things something so trivial as vfat. This is the
vendor we're supposed to be trusting? How soon before they do an OS/2 on us?
How soon before they do a MITS on us?
Nevermind their fine history bad engineering decisions.
> do, and so do most people outside of the cesspit known as COLA.
>
>
This is Novell. A conscious boycott is hardly necessary.
--
It is not true that Microsoft doesn't innovate.
They brought us the email virus.
In my Atari days, such a notion would have |||
been considered a complete absurdity. / | \
JEDIDIAH
Generally, "sales" is constantly being conflated with installed base.
Furthermore, certain people will spin the number so as to inflate the
actual installed base. The usual example here would be measuring revenue
as opposed to installed servers. Even an apples to apples comparison
between Microsoft and Redhat might lead to numbers that favor Microsoft
when they really do not.
Anything that seeks to measure the installed base usually tends to
be highly biased and or self-selecting or just a limited set of data
that probably can't be generalized.
OTOH, that all matters less than does the apps you're personally
interested in and "3rd party support" that you are personally
interested in.
The difference between a market leader and a monopoly is that I
am completely at liberty to ignore the market leader if I really want.
In that context, "market share" is a lot less important.
Hadron
Yes. I know. I think you're agreeing with me.
Clearly no one is referring to Market Share as number of paid for units
in relation to Linux since its free. Which makes the saner of us wonder
WHY its so low considering its free AND Free. And people like Miguel
try to address it by opening up the Linux desktop with Mono. Only
clueless sheep like Ahlstrom, Gidget and Roy Spamowitz are anti
it. It can ONLY be good for Linux adoption : and for some reason they
don't like that. Not that their views carry any weight whatsoever of
course.
Snit
2:18 PM:
You have no example of my doing as you say, Peter. You simply are mad that
I have pointed out your absurd claims.
-----
Peter K�hlmann:
The apps with "Quit" do *not* exit, they continue to run
in the background
Peter also showed he did not understand that the clipboard works
inconsistently on desktop Linux (when he finally figured it out he accused
me of not knowing about clipboard managers, a claim he simply made up), etc.
Heck, he even claimed that someone who made the choice Linus did was not
qualified to talk about Linux:
Peter K�hlmann:
I don't care what that guy has to say. Anyone chosing Gnome
as DE is already disqualified. Gnome is hideous, technically
(for programmers) and optically
Linus Torvalds:
I thought KDE 4.0 was such a disaster, I switched to GNOME.
On and on... Peter simply shows he has a lot of areas of ignorance in terms
of Linux... which, by the way, so do many of us. No shame... but he will
not admit to it.
-----
Clearly it really upsets you to have your mistakes pointed out - so much you
are willing to lie. Hint: if you would stop lying about me I would stop
noting why you do so... you would get what you really want - me to stop
pointing out your absurd claims.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
5dc79ac3-8641-4350...@y6g2000prf.googlegroups.com on 5/13/09
2:23 PM:
All your installed base belong to us.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Tim Smith
Chris Ahlstrom <ahls...@launchmodem.com> wrote:
> After takin' a swig o' grog, Miguel de Icaza belched out
> this bit o' wisdom:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> >> Nice fellow you're tag-teaming with, Miguel.
> >
> > From the quotes you posted, it seems like you do not like him, because
> > he does not like Roy.
> >
> > I am shocked, *shocked* that someone would not like Roy's hate
> > mongering.
>
> Roy doesn't "hate monger". Maybe "dislike monger". Roy wears his heart
> on his sleeve, and overreaches sometimes. But even his worst behavior is
> a whole world less obnoxious than some of the garbage that Microsoft
> proponents (and Microsoft themselves) have pulled.
Note that Chris has previously told us here that he does not read Roy's
writings outside of COLA, which means he's not seen Roy's worst.
--
--Tim Smith
William Poaster
of the trolls Peter K�hlmann was heard to say:
> Hadron wrote:
>
>
> < snip >
>
>> Tell the little shit nothing. It's a bit like Jorg Schilling who was
>> insulted and criticised by Chris Ahlstrom here. The COLA crowd actually
>> tried tearing Schilling to pieces despite his considerable contributions
>> to the OSS movement.
>>
>
> He currently *is* torn to pieces for constant lying in a german newsgroup.
I've seen it in other groups too, so Hardon Quack's jibe at the so-called
"COLA crowd" falls flat on its face.
> Like Snot Michael Glasser he constantly snips questions regarding the
> licence of the cdrtools and then fails to support his claims.
> Which are, quite frankly, nearly as lunatic as a typical Snot Glasser
> claim
--
It IS because of him and two other useless people in particular
(CBFalconer and Harold "old school" Stevens (probably both Willy nyms)
that I started to drift from the Ubuntu fan boy zone.
Hadron - Message-ID: <gdl55d$lc2$1...@registered.motzarella.org>
Hadron
> After takin' a swig o' grog, Miguel de Icaza belched out
> this bit o' wisdom:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>>> Nice fellow you're tag-teaming with, Miguel.
>>
>> From the quotes you posted, it seems like you do not like him, because
>> he does not like Roy.
>>
>> I am shocked, *shocked* that someone would not like Roy's hate
>> mongering.
>
> Roy doesn't "hate monger". Maybe "dislike monger". Roy wears his heart
> on his sleeve, and overreaches sometimes. But even his worst behavior is
> a whole world less obnoxious than some of the garbage that Microsoft
> proponents (and Microsoft themselves) have pulled.
You horrible sneaky little fibber. You have only YESTERDAY claimed that
you don't read his other sites and have no interest in doing so. So how
would you know?
Roy IS a hate mongerer.
WTF else is an Anti Novell site? His anti Mono stance with NO idea what
it is?
>
> I don't like Hadron because he is fundamentally dishonest and perverse.
>
Yet you won't post a SINGLE link to me openly lying or telling lies.
> He likes to say that I "call people 'fuckheads' and 'cunts'", as if I did
> that regularly and to a lot of people. Nah. I use the phrase "the lying
> Hadron cunt" for Hadron only, and it is mostly a 'pun' on the Large Hadron
> Collider. And I called some blogger quoted here a 'fuckhead' because his
> ideas were incredibly silly and wrong-header. Then I called Hadron that,
> simply because he is an incredible fuckhead. Which should be obvious from
> the quotes (a very small sample of his egregious insults).
You lose it all the time. When you're caught being dishonest as you are
now. Frankly, I suspect Miguel couldn't give a shit. I see you didn't
mention your attempted put down of Jorg Shilling or your quite
incredible announcement that you had "code read" his
code..... Bwahahaha.
You denied I pointed you in the right direction with some Debian stuff
which you had to then later retract when I provided links. You denied I
used Debian. You told untruths, knowingly in my opinion, and you got
caught out. You would sell your soul for another nuzzle up to your
Master Roy. It's quit creepy behaviour for a grown man.
I take nothing back from anyone of those quotes. the behaviour in this
dishonest cess pit of a NG deserves nothing less IMO. The worst thing is
that I suspect you're ok in real life. So why do you have to demean
yourself with your shilling of Roy's hate fueled nonsense? You do
yourself no favours.
And as for your whining below I note you didn't stand up against Willy
Poaster et al who actively seeded Google against Snit with references to
his family, business and customers? No. Why? Because you're a two faced
little hypocrite IMO.
>
> So, three instances of usage of those words as insult.
>
> To top it off, Hadron gets "defended" by some anonymous clown who sent, as
> "Nomen Nescio", an email to my /wife/ telling her that I "continually" use
> the word "cunt". Imagine being defended by a sneaky little Eddie-Haskel
> shit who has to "tell on me" to my wife, as if she were my mommy.
Huh? That was nothing to do with me. In the same way Roy can't stop 7 or
worse, you, supporting him.
>
> Yeah, Miguel (if that is /really/ who you are, and I doubt it), keep
> "hanging with Hadron". Just remember to use the decontamination chamber
> afterward.
You're a dishonest little suck up and fraud. Would you like me to
provide links to the article you poasted sucking up to Roy about Mono
only to be told that you clearly didn't even know what Mono is?
I see that now you've been handed your arse on a plate once again you
now try to turn it against the person who did just that. You doubt
away. No one cares.
It's you that's the dishonest one here Ahlstrom. And everyone in this
group knows it. You have been called by nearly everyone on your blind
support for your master Roy regardless of the accuracy of his or your
information.
Get a grip and try to be more honest. Blindly following Roy will do you
no good or gain you any respect from anyone here or external to COLA.
TRY to see the GOOD that Mono can bring. If you're capable.
Hadron
You really believe that for one minute? You really think that such a fan
struck little fanboi as Chris has not read his masters writing
elsewhere? Don't make me laugh!
Peter Köhlmann
> On Wed, 13 May 2009 23:18:59 +0200, above the shrieking, FUDding &
> whining of the trolls Peter Köhlmann was heard to say:
>
>> Hadron wrote:
>>
>>
>> < snip >
>>
>>> Tell the little shit nothing. It's a bit like Jorg Schilling who was
>>> insulted and criticised by Chris Ahlstrom here. The COLA crowd
>>> actually tried tearing Schilling to pieces despite his considerable
>>> contributions to the OSS movement.
>>>
>>
>> He currently *is* torn to pieces for constant lying in a german
>> newsgroup.
>
> I've seen it in other groups too, so Hardon Quack's jibe at the
> so-called "COLA crowd" falls flat on its face.
Here, some links to the debian bugs group, which is full of posts asking
Jörg Schilling to somehow explain his misuse of bug-reporting.
And of (fruitlessly) explaining that twit the basics of GPL
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=402456
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=377109
Jörg Schilling, as good his software may be, is by far one of the most
unpleasant people distro maintainers could have the misfortune to work
with.
No wonder nearly all major distros adamantly refuse to have any
connections with that twit. He is a prime example of those misfits like
Hadron Snot Quark and Snot Michael Glasser. Hazardous waste plants would
refuse to recycle that garbage
>> Like Snot Michael Glasser he constantly snips questions regarding the
>> licence of the cdrtools and then fails to support his claims.
>> Which are, quite frankly, nearly as lunatic as a typical Snot Glasser
>> claim
>
--
Avoid reality at all costs.
Snit
3:48 PM:
> He is a prime example of those misfits like
> Hadron Snot Quark and Snot Michael Glasser. Hazardous waste plants would
> refuse to recycle that garbage
I wonder if Peter can go a whole day without obsessing over me?
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Gregory Shearman
> On 2009-05-12, Miguel de Icaza <miguel....@gmail.com> claimed:
>>
>>> I'm not going to get into all of the technical aspects of the whole
>>> thing because I don't claim to be knowledgeable about it all.
>>
>> You are not, as your posting shows.
>>
>>> I'm personally proactive. I eradicate every library, application or
>>> support structure on my system that has the slightest thing to do with
>>> MONO. .NET can stay out of my life completely, no matter what name it
>>> chooses to call itself.
>>
>> More power to you.
>
> Then you either agree that it isn't a case of trying to force anyone in
> a particular direction, or you have nothing to counter what I said
> concerning your claim of such.
>
> Which begs the question as to why you think someone personally being
> *against* something is tantamount to forcing someone else in a
> particular direction. That was how you phrased it.
If I could be a nazi about your use of sayings:
"Begging the question" doesn't mean what you think it means.
This is an example of the logical fallacy of begging the question:
"I hate jews... well, because they're jews!".
See, there's a circular reasoning which begs the question.
If you use "begs the question" as you have in your article then you are
using it incorrectly.
--
Regards,
Gregory.
Gentoo Linux - Penguin Power
JEDIDIAH
How do you measure free exactly?
How do you detect when a Compaq crapbox ends up running Ubuntu?
How do you detect when a Mac mini ends up running Ubuntu?
[deletia]
Now of course we all know that the lion's share of actual "OS Sales"
occurs on preloaded machines. The fact that this is a marketplace that
is hard to enter even if you are IBM might have something to do with
the apparent sluggishness of the Linux desktop market.