"...people who first try Linux absolutely hate it."
DFS
Hate's a strong word. I would think first-time Linux engenders - at worst -
scorn, contempt, and derision.
But hate? That should be reserved for stuff like vi and slrn and mutt.
Linonut
> http://www.oreillynet.com/linux/blog/2007/02/performing_brain_surgery_on_yo.html?CMP=OTC-0O724Z062301&ATT=Performing+Brain+Surgery+On+Yourself
>
> Hate's a strong word. I would think first-time Linux engenders - at worst -
> scorn, contempt, and derision.
Once again Linus Torvalds\u2019 words about \u201cperforming brain
surgery on yourself\u201d are very apt to your situation. My
experience is that people who first try Linux absolutely hate it. If
they stick with it for six months they can\u2019t figure out how they
ever made do with Windows. Once you\u2019re past the learning curve
the advantages of Linux become pretty darned obvious.
Funny, I loved it /immediately/. That being said, it took me a month to
get comfy with it.
> But hate? That should be reserved for stuff like vi and slrn and mutt.
I myself just love those three apps. Fast and powerful.
I like this quote:
Your middle point, "nobody else uses Linux", is just plain
silly. Every report I've seen over the last couple of years puts
Linux' share of the desktop at somewhere between four and six
percent. That, my friend, is tens of millions of people.
All the quotes from Windozers are funny. This comment was the funniest,
but did not come from a Windozer:
If a college drop out like Bill Gates can run a computer, so can
anyone.
But then:
Some months back my mother came to visit me in Wisconsin. She is a
grandmother in her late sixties, a retired professor of French, and
though she is extremely intelligent and well educated she has never
exactly been tech savvy. It took her quite a while to learn how to
program a VCR. She is also a Windows user with only a small amount of
exposure to Linux. She got up earlier than I did one morning, turned
on my computer, logged in to Xubuntu Dapper, and proceeded to check
her e-mail, read news on the web, and look through a PowerPoint
presentation a cousin in Israel had sent using OpenOffice, all with
no problems and without asking a single question. Linux passed the
grandma test. I have to believe that anyone who makes an effort and
doesn't come in with preconceived notions can run a Linux
desktop.
Indeed.
--
Linux -- If a college drop out like Bill Gates can run a computer, so
can anyone.
skydweller
That's actually a great article. You should read it.
We'll start with the quote in the subject line:
<quote>
My experience is that people who first try Linux absolutely hate it. If they
stick with it for six months they can’t figure out how they ever made do
with Windows. Once you’re past the learning curve the advantages of Linux
become pretty darned obvious.
</quote>
Not quite the same spin as the subject.
Not only that, there's something eerily familiar about the questions posed
in the article:
<quote>
having to read and learn and ask questions from strangers (because nobody
else uses linux) just to boot WITHout destroying the precious winNdows
enviro that the rest of the family DEPENDS on is LUDICROUS.
</quote>
<quote>
Problem was, I couldn’t even figure out how to install a driver….where the
driver files had to go….what the extension were (inf)….and stuff
like….where is the .dll library and so on.
</quote>
These and other questions were answered quite well in the article (you
*really* should read it). It occurs to me that I've seen these sorts of
complaints before. Right here in this group. Repeatedly. From the OP.
Six months may be a stretch for most, but a lifetime won't suffice for a
few.
Have a nice day.
--
This message brought to you by your Department of Redundancy Department
The Ghost In The Machine
<nospam@dfs_.com>
wrote
on Mon, 5 Nov 2007 10:02:42 -0500
<heGXi.21487$u7.1...@bignews2.bellsouth.net>:
It may depend on the user's comfort level with Unix-based
stuff. I'm an old Unix-head, basically, and have no
trouble with vi and slrn; I've not used mutt but if one
hates mutt one'll loathe mailx. :-)
Of course most of my email is either spam or the occasional
wine list patch; the latter is of some interest but I've
not worked out a nice way to filter it out yet, and neither
balsa nor evolution play nice with a 372 megabyte flat file;
they basically choke.
(And to anyone who bothers to send me spam...good luck trying
to infect my Linux system. Mailx is way too braindead to
try to execute code sent in as an encoded chunk; I can't
even view pictures with it.)
Of course it's mostly because I have more entertaining
things to do than write specialized Perl scripts, :-)
but I can do it if need arises.
And of course Notepad, being the super-de-duper
ultra-flexible editor that it is (well, as far as some of
the Wintrools seem to like to project, anyway), can handle
the keystroke sequence
!!bc
which allows me to type in an expression such as
(5*7)+(2*10)+15/4
on a line, and convert it to
58
right?
It's not perfect (the proper answer is 58 3/4) but what is?
To be fair, Notepad can accept a paste from the calculator
tool, which might be a more visually friendly if less
flexible solution available to Windows users. Gnome's
calculator has a similar ability, and vi will accept text
from a paste if one uses the middle mouse button and puts
vi into insert mode beforehand -- a mode that seasoned vi
users use often while typing in posts.
(On a side issue: Java tables post into HTML-formatted
Evolution just fine, thank you; I use that all the time
to send database fetch results to coworkers. I suspect
Oracle's TOAD can paste into MS Office but haven't
tried it and don't know how well it works.)
But can either graphical calculator take an arbitrary
expression, expressed as a string? Apparently not.
As for slrn...its main problem for me is Unicode display,
and that's because 0.9.8.2 hasn't been put into the
stable Gentoo tree yet for some strange reason.
Since most of you lot post in ASCII or near enough :-),
it's another low priority -- and not part of Linux qua
Linux anyway (though most distros offer it).
So remember, hate Linux for 2 minutes, and love Big
Brother. Anything else is doubleplusungood thoughtcrime.
We'll be publishing a MS Newspeak dictionary sometime in
the near future, to ensure that everyone is familiar with
technical terms such as "folder", "drive", "boot", and
"document".
Be seeing you!
--
#191, ewi...@earthlink.net
Windows. Multi-platform(1), multi-tasking(1), multi-user(1).
(1) if one defines "multi" as "exactly one".
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Sinister Midget
> Of course most of my email is either spam or the occasional
> wine list patch; the latter is of some interest but I've
> not worked out a nice way to filter it out yet, and neither
> balsa nor evolution play nice with a 372 megabyte flat file;
> they basically choke.
Run your own local mail servers and use procmail to delete the stuff
that bogs the client down. Or you can use mailfilter to get rid of it
before downloading. Or you can use the local servers idea in
combination with mailfilter and procmail.
That last idea is the method I follow. I run a script via cron that
gets mailfilter to delete what I don't want that's covered by the rc
file, and then it downloads the mail to the machine where procmail can
dump anything mailfilter may miss. Since it's delivered via a local pop
server, there's no problem with timing when both mailfilter and the
client are trying to check mail at the same time on external servers
because the client only gets it from the local machine anyway.
While I'm at it I go ahead and send outgoing to a local server so it
can handle slowdowns on any of the 6 external smtp servers I use.
--
Capitalism is what people do if you leave them alone.
Doug Mentohl
professed Linux advocates, why spend an inordinate amount of time on
enabling garbage such as DFS and providing them with a platform here on
COLA. DFS and chums are the reasons why most decent people vacated this
forum a long time ago. 'It's just Usenet' doesn't count as a valid reason ..
The Ghost In The Machine
<doug_m...@linuxmail.org>
wrote
on Mon, 05 Nov 2007 19:21:12 +0000
<fgnqf8$u35$1...@news.datemas.de>:
Because they do occasionally push legitimate issues. Joe
Computer User may not care about the niceties of fork(),
the details regarding UDP packets in nfs, or the ability
of X to be network-transparent; these are not generally
visible to him (unless he's also Joe Hardcore Developer
in these particular cases, or there's an application that
he likes that requires these underpinnings). He *will*
care about perceived reliability and/or draw issues and/or
application availability; these we should address, if
only to note that they are there, and the workarounds
available.
There is also the inurement/inoculation factor.
The Wintrools are out there. Letting them run unchecked
will poison the well; we at least need to wipe up the
residue, presumably, on an occasional basis. Otherwise,
it becomes hard-to-remove grime.
Of course, the outright lies are interesting on
occasion; so-and-so's system doesn't work but they fail
to provide details. We need to point that out, too,
presumably, and without details these are very hard to
troubleshoot. (Of course one might simply point out that
they should be elsewhere anyway -- comp.os.linux.setup
or comp.os.linux.hardware being the most obvious two
locations.)
But which is better, shining the light on the cockroaches
and then daubing them with insecticide, or letting them
scuttle around unchecked by ignoring them?
--
#191, ewi...@earthlink.net
/dev/signature: Not a text file
Sinister Midget
Read the thread. I replied to something Ghost had to say. Show me where
I responded to, took up the cause or quoted DuFuS.
Now, are you a licensed net-nanny, or is this just a hobby for you?
--
When you discover you are dead, avoid driving a car.
Sinister Midget
Finally, the person who just started lurking has no idea that the
Windiots are what they are. So they'll only see people who are
*supposedly* advocates ignoring what may seem like things they aren't
versed enough to discuss, agree with or just have no response to. It
might be better to tackle some of the things the Windolts post if for
no other reason than to educate the newest readers that the Windummies
are worthless shills.
--
Diplomacy: Saying nice doggy until you find a gun.
Doug Mentohl
<ew...@sirius.tg00suus7038.net> wrote:
> Because they do occasionally push legitimate issues. Joe Computer User may not care about the niceties of fork(),
You're kidding, do you seriously think Joe Computer User would take
any notice of a cockroache like DFS ..
> But which is better, shining the light on the cockroaches and then daubing them with insecticide, or letting them scuttle around unchecked by ignoring them?
What's better is not sitting down at the same table as shit eaters ...
"I replied to something Ghost had to say. Show me where I responded
to, took up the cause or quoted DuFuS", Sinister
Ok, you were responding to Ghost who responded to Linonut who
responded to DFS. Why bother, is there nothing else that can occupy
you all here but the demented ravings of DFS? You are replying to a
thread started by DuFuS and as such giving it credence, why the fuck
bother, do you like wallowing in shit .. ?
Doug Mentohl
> Finally, the person who just started lurking has no idea that the Windiots are what they are ..
The first rule of troll dodging is not to talk to them. I mean if you
want to engage trolls why not start a trolling group specially to
accomodate DFS and the rest.Call it comp.abusers.trolling.forum ...
Doug Mentohl
> Finally, the person who just started lurking has no idea that the Windiots are what they are
It pains me to say this, do you seriously think anyone whould want to
come here to find out about anything. This place is totally destroyed,
and it pains me further to say this, with co-operation from the so
called 'good' advocates.
Do you seriously think that what goes on here influences anyone. It's
a laughing stock is all and all with the co-operation of the likes of
you, now don't get all insulted, I'm just telling it as it is.
How many decent people have walked away from this place .. ? COLA is
an embarrassment even for someone called 'Doug Mentohl' and it takes a
lot to embarrase me .. :)
Doug Mentohl
COLA, it's not as if it's of any use. In fact you would be better off
NOT advocating LINUX, you're actually doing it a lot of damage. Anyone
who wants to disparage the Open Source crowd, all they have to do is
point to here. That's the unvarnished trutth, fellas, your the longest
running joke on Usenet, but it wouldn't be 'tough love' if I didn't
tell it like it is.
There are some decent people here and they know who they are. It
pisses me off seeing them day after day, subject to disruption and
personal abuse. And all you (in this thread) get to say is, oh there
might me lurkers here who we must educate. All I can say to that is
BOLLIX !!!
skydweller
...
> Ok, you were responding to Ghost who responded to Linonut who
> responded to DFS. Why bother, is there nothing else that can occupy
> you all here but the demented ravings of DFS? You are replying to a
> thread started by DuFuS and as such giving it credence, why the fuck
> bother, do you like wallowing in shit .. ?
Some will find this hard to believe, but my first introduction to linux was
this newsgroup. Not knowing anything about linux at the time, I had no
basis to dispute some of the nonsense dispensed by the anti-linux types who
hang out here. Fortunately, there were advocates then (Peter Kohlmann for
sure, very active in the Suse forums, Midget I think, some others) who were
willing to take on the tedious chore of refuting the bullshit. Without
them a newcomer can be overwhelmed. There are better places to get help,
for sure, and newcomers find them soon enough, but that's no reason to let
the trolls go unchallenged.
![[H]omer's profile photo](http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/a-/ALV-UjWMQWyYwHeIwxhG3nGUeGWmLQD0R8TeZrvdWDiv5-2S_z3rHg=s40-c)
[H]omer
I like all of the aforementioned Linux posters. They are witty,
intelligent, and contribute much of interest to the discussion.
However ... I also second this opinion that they should stop giving
voice to this bunch of malevolent reprobate WinTrolls with a vicious
anti-Linux agenda. These are the kind of thugs who should be behind
bars, never mind spreading their fascist propaganda on Usenet.
IMHO engaging such people in conversation is tantamount to aiding and
abetting a felon.
About the only one of them that I can even tolerate is Erik, depending
on whether or not he's being reasonable, or just shuffling as usual.
--
K.
http://slated.org
.----
| "[Microsoft] are willing to lose money for years and years just to
| make sure that you don't make any money, either." - Bob Cringely.
| - http://blog.businessofsoftware.org/2007/07/cringely-the-un.html
`----
Fedora release 7 (Moonshine) on sky, running kernel 2.6.22.1-41.fc7
20:34:18 up 88 days, 20:29, 3 users, load average: 0.00, 0.04, 0.19
Richard Rasker
Great article, thanks for the link.
> Hate's a strong word. I would think first-time Linux engenders - at worst
> - scorn, contempt, and derision.
>
> But hate? That should be reserved for stuff like vi and slrn and mutt.
Your spin is, as usual, ridiculous. People in general don't like change
and unfamiliar things, and prefer to stick to what they know. As long
as it does the job, the quality of what they use is less important than
familiarity. This effect is even stronger if people feel they're sort
of pushed or forced to use something else; I recall that some years ago,
I read about a Linux/OpenOffice migration in some organization which led
to a huge increase in support calls from users, about things not working
and the likes. When these complaints were investigated, the vast
majority turned out to be bogus. People were just not happy with the
change, and immediately reported "broken" apps whenever they didn't
find the desired function in the place they were used to under
Windows -- even though they had received training to deal with the
change. Lots of calls were even completely baseless, claiming that
apps or even the OS crashed a lot or only worked intermittently -- yet
these "malfunctions" never occurred when an admin was around, and no
trace of problems was found in any logs.
I have several users without any Windows experience -- and they don't
like using Windows at all. Also, I have quite a number of users who
loathed Windows (hence their migration to Linux), and didn't "hate"
Linux at all; quite contrary, they decribed the migration as a
liberation from all the usual Windows annoyances.
So if this article bears any particular message, it is to give Linux
a fair try, after wich you'll probably never want to use Windows again.
Richard Rasker
--
http://www.linetec.nl/
The Ghost In The Machine
<1194293906.5...@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>:
> On 5 Nov, 11:53, The Ghost In The Machine
> <ew...@sirius.tg00suus7038.net> wrote:
>
>> Because they do occasionally push legitimate issues. Joe Computer User may not care about the niceties of fork(),
>
> You're kidding, do you seriously think Joe Computer User would take
> any notice of a cockroache like DFS ..
Depends on how naive he is. I'll admit I've not studied
DFS's post patterns in detail; it's obvious to the
regulars, of course, that DFS is a Deranged [censored]
Senile idiot, since they have had experience with Linux,
but his stuff *sounds* reasonable enough to someone who
has no idea that Windows is in fact a detachable component.
But is it really reasonable? And under what circumstances?
>
>> But which is better, shining the light on the cockroaches
>> and then daubing them with insecticide, or letting them
>> scuttle around unchecked by ignoring them?
>
> What's better is not sitting down at the same table
> as shit eaters ...
It's a big table. :-)
>
> "I replied to something Ghost had to say. Show me where I responded
> to, took up the cause or quoted DuFuS", Sinister
>
> Ok, you were responding to Ghost who responded to Linonut who
> responded to DFS. Why bother, is there nothing else that can occupy
> you all here but the demented ravings of DFS? You are replying to a
> thread started by DuFuS and as such giving it credence, why the fuck
> bother, do you like wallowing in shit .. ?
>
Properly processed, shit can be of great value; talk to a gardener. :-)
--
#191, ewi...@earthlink.net
Linux. Because life's too short for a buggy OS.
[H]omer
> but that's no reason to let the trolls go unchallenged.
Indulging their trolling only encourages them.
If every advocate in COLA ignored every WinTroll's post, then the
WinTrolls would be doing nothing other than talking to themselves,
which would eventually discourage them, and they'd give up and leave.
That's what happens when you ignore attention seekers.
The problem with accepting these so-called "challenges", is that it's
the same thing as being baited by someone calling you "chicken". The
Trolls do *not* have any valid and reasonable arguments, they are not
here to provide constructive criticism, they are here purely for the
purpose of sabotage, and anyone encouraging them in that endeavour is
just aiding a saboteur in his destruction.
If they wanted to be reasonable and constructive, then these Trolls
should report any actual failings they find to the respective devel list
or forum, not come into COLA and use it as a weapon to win a victory for
Microsoft, then sit around like a bunch of hyenas laughing about it.
But of course, they won't do that, because that is not their agenda.
You have the likes of DooFy, who patently despises altruism, and labels
anyone who doesn't pay (in money) for absolutely everything they touch,
a "freeloader". In fact, this reprehensible goon is so obsessed with
money, and despises the principles of Freedom and altruism so much, that
he spends his time hunting for obscure software with obscure problems,
just so he can have a good laugh about it in COLA. He claims to be a
developer, and yet instead of spending his time constructively finding
solutions, he'd rather compile lists of problems, to use as a weapon
against COLA and Linux.
AFAICT he is nothing but a VB "developer", with so many years invested
in Microsoft's proprietary solutions, that he is shit scared that the
inevitable rise in popularity of FOSS and Open Standards will make
people like him redundant, out on the street, and penniless. Can't have
that; he'd have no pennies to lay at the feet of the golden idol he
keeps in his cupboard, as he kneels to worship it every night.
No, rather than graciously accepting the ever-changing world of IT,
people like DooFy would rather sabotage the efforts of those who wish to
bring about those changes. If he has any skills whatsoever, he could
easily retrain to meet the the requirements of FOSS and Open Standards,
so one must assume that he is either a talentless hack, or a mindless
bigot (or possibly both).
Then you have the like of Ray Lopez, someone who admits to not even
having used Linux in *10 years*, and yet he comes here and spews all
kinds of filth about it, and uses COLA like a Microsoft stock-ticker, as
though the most important thing in the world was making money, and that
the technical merit of software is irrelevant, as is the immoral methods
employed by Microsoft to further their monopolistic empire.
And then there's those like Alexander Terekhov, a vile right-wing
extremist who uses his hatred of Stallman, Moglen, the FSF, and Freedom
in general; as a soapbox for his twisted vitriol.
And of course who could forget people like Nudds and flatfish, a pair of
psychopathic lunatics who stalk COLA using pseudonyms to make ad hominem
attacks against anyone who dares to support anything but Microsoft and
their Crudware.
And last but not least we have idiots like Hadron, someone with the IQ
of a tadpole, spouting utter gibberish, and being rewarded with
"corrections" from those naive enough to accept his "challenges".
So explain to me, how can anyone justify even giving these thugs the
time of day, much less feeding their trolling habits?
--
K.
http://slated.org
.----
| "[Microsoft] are willing to lose money for years and years just to
| make sure that you don't make any money, either." - Bob Cringely.
| - http://blog.businessofsoftware.org/2007/07/cringely-the-un.html
`----
Fedora release 7 (Moonshine) on sky, running kernel 2.6.22.1-41.fc7
21:50:22 up 88 days, 21:45, 3 users, load average: 0.15, 0.03, 0.01
High Plains Thumper
> It severely pains me to say this, but how about totally
> disbanding COLA, it's not as if it's of any use. In fact you
> would be better off NOT advocating LINUX, you're actually
> doing it a lot of damage. Anyone who wants to disparage the
> Open Source crowd, all they have to do is point to here.
> That's the unvarnished truth, fellas, your the longest
> running joke on Usenet, but it wouldn't be 'tough love' if I
> didn't tell it like it is.
>
> There are some decent people here and they know who they are.
> It pisses me off seeing them day after day, subject to
> disruption and personal abuse. And all you (in this thread)
> get to say is, oh there might me lurkers here who we must
> educate. All I can say to that is BOLLIX !!!
I hate to admit it, but the if the trolls cannot promote their
anti-Linux, anti-FOSS agenda, the next best thing is to drown out
advocacy by trashing the newsgroup.
When all the trolls including the sux and fishy troll stopped
posting for about a month, it was revealing how much this
newsgroup has been trashed. The number of advocate posters have
dwindled considerably.
At first I thought this was alarming. Looking to the bright
side, Linux no longer needs advocacy. It has already established
itself. It has already taken seed.
No amount of FUD is going to derail Linux. The convicted
monopoly is like Rome. Government dereliction of duty has
allowed it to monopolise the market. Microsoft is crumbling from
within.
Best illustration is the Vista operating system. You would think
that it would be the best yet, blowing the socks off Apple's
latest, Leopard and giving Linux tough competition in the way of
performance, stability, security, etc.
Consumers are resisting it because they are not ready to give up
their investment of current software and buy new hardware. They
are burned out from the continuous costly upgrade cycles. They
want performance. They want to HAVE IT THEIR WAY [tm].
No one is interested in the pretty, designer styled Vista box
with a different colour for each flavour.
I find it difficult to believe that a multibillion quid
corporation would take its best talent and design something that
defies performance.
With such talent, one would expect the tightest, most efficient
underlying engine an OS can have. One that runs better than how
one blogger put it, runs like XP on 256 MB memory, except it is
on a 2 GB memory machine.
Very few older applications will run on it. Thus, an upgrade
requires a complete suite of new software, another major investment.
Why buy Vista when I can get Window apps to work in WINE, and
those that don't with a small investment less than the cost of a
leading antivirus/personal firewall product for Windows, purchase
a commercial product for Linux that will?
You can fool some of the people all of the time, all of the
people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all
of the time.
--
HPT
ray
FWIW - I have found that folks who are open minded about it to begin with
don't mind at all. Those who have already made up their minds they are
going to hate it, do. Case in point: my sister uses a computer simply to
get her work done - that's all. I've had her using my Linux computers for
a variety of tasks and she has absolutely no problem and does not mind in
the slightest. Her husband, on the other hand, positively will have
nothing to do with Linux - claims he 'does not have time to learn a new
OS' - so he won't, and doesn't and hates everything he has to do on Linux.
owl
>
> And of course Notepad, being the super-de-duper
> ultra-flexible editor that it is (well, as far as some of
> the Wintrools seem to like to project, anyway), can handle
> the keystroke sequence
>
> !!bc
>
> which allows me to type in an expression such as
>
> (5*7)+(2*10)+15/4
>
> on a line, and convert it to
>
> 58
>
> right?
>
> It's not perfect (the proper answer is 58 3/4) but what is?
>
scale=2;
x=7; y=10;
ghost=5*x+2*y+15/4
z=10*x+1
p=7*y-8
q=p*z
ghost; z; p; q
With cursor on "scale=2;"
:.,+6!bc
<snip>
DFS
> However ... I also second this opinion that they should stop giving
> voice to this bunch of malevolent reprobate WinTrolls with a vicious
> anti-Linux agenda. These are the kind of thugs who should be behind
> bars, never mind spreading their fascist propaganda on Usenet.
>
> IMHO engaging such people in conversation is tantamount to aiding and
> abetting a felon.
For an open source, fighting-for-civil-rights weenie you sure are mean and
judgemental and against freedom of expression.
DFS
> When all the trolls including the sux and fishy troll stopped
> posting for about a month, it was revealing how much this
> newsgroup has been trashed. The number of advocate posters have
> dwindled considerably.
Which has nothing to do with anti-advocates or those of us who don't suck
Linux' ass.
> Microsoft is crumbling from within.
When Mentohl said "Anyone who wants to disparage the Open Source crowd, all
they have to do is point to here." he was referring to people like Roy
[H]omer Kent 7 Bailo Ballard HPT and others who make ridiculous claims like
this.
> Best illustration is the Vista operating system. You would think
> that it would be the best yet, blowing the socks off Apple's
> latest, Leopard and giving Linux tough competition in the way of
> performance, stability, security, etc.
It's not a stellar performer from what I've read (at least on midrange
systems) and experienced, but it has absolutely beat down Linux in terms of
adoption and mindshare. And I haven't heard about any consistent problems
with Vista stability or security.
> Consumers are resisting it because they are not ready to give up
> their investment of current software and buy new hardware. They
> are burned out from the continuous costly upgrade cycles.
What continuous upgrade? XP was released in Oct 2001, Office 2003 is four
years old, etc.
What costly? A Vista Home Premium machine from Dell costs $50 more than
their Ubuntu machines.
> I find it difficult to believe that a multibillion quid
> corporation would take its best talent and design something that
> defies performance.
I have Vista Ultimate on a 2ghz Pentium 4 system w/ 1gb RAM and a $50 ATI
video card, and it runs fine. I had Vista Ultimate running on a 800mhz
Pentium 3 w/ 512 RAM and a 32mb nVidia card (my Dell system from 2000) and
it was plenty usable.
Turn off Aero and various visual effects, use Windows Classic view, and stop
some of the many services that startup at boot, and Vista starts to sing
(but it doesn't look like anything special).
You have no Vista running yet you blab and blab and blab. Making sure
everyone knows you're ignorant is one of the hallmarks of a good cola Linux
"advocate".
If you're not going to install Vista - but you want to continue to blab -
arm yourself with some info from the hundreds of reviews on NewEgg. The
majority of Vista reviews are good to excellent, and ~50% more reviews are
Excellent than just Good.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116213 343 reviews
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116202 499
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116215 206
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116143 61
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116141 64
> With such talent, one would expect the tightest, most efficient
> underlying engine an OS can have.
One would not expect that (unless one was an cola idiot claiming Linux is
perfect). Any reasonable person would expect the tightest, most efficient
underlying engine MS developers can create, given constraints of time,
hardware and backward compatibility.
> One that runs better than how one blogger put it, runs like
> XP on 256 MB memory, except it is on a 2 GB memory machine.
Unless you've personally run Vista on a 2gb memory system - and there's
about a 99.999% chance you haven't - you don't really have any business
quoting that blogger.
> Very few older applications will run on it.
I bet you can't name 3. Backward compatibility is the name of the Windows
game.
> Thus, an upgrade requires a complete suite of new software, another major
> investment.
No it doesn't. Nor does it require much in the way of upgraded hardware,
though 2gb is a good sweet spot. (here's some decent memory for
$22/gigabyte
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820220144)
> You can fool some of the people all of the time, all of the
> people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all
> of the time.
Ask yourself why the people of the world haven't been fooled by free
software.
Jeffrey Stedfast
[snip]
>
> Of course most of my email is either spam or the occasional
> wine list patch; the latter is of some interest but I've
> not worked out a nice way to filter it out yet, and neither
> balsa nor evolution play nice with a 372 megabyte flat file;
> they basically choke.
>
This was an unfortunate problem with Evolution's
display-everything-as-html design, of which I take at least partial
responsibility :(
The new maintainers have seemingly fixed this problem recently, though
(as of 2.12? might be in 2.10 as well), by offering the user a way to
display said message content in a normal GtkTextView widget and/or to
simply save it to disk instead of pegging the CPU in an attempt to
render such a beast as HTML (which is quite expensive to a) convert to
HTML in terms of processing b) in terms of memory usage and c) in terms
of parsing/rendering in the HTML widget).
Jeff (an ex-Evolution developer)
DFS
> DFS wrote:
>
>>
> http://www.oreillynet.com/linux/blog/2007/02/performing_brain_surgery_on_yo.html?CMP=OTC-0O724Z062301&ATT=Performing+Brain+Surgery+On+Yourself
>>
>> Hate's a strong word. I would think first-time Linux engenders - at
>> worst - scorn, contempt, and derision.
>>
>> But hate? That should be reserved for stuff like vi and slrn and
>> mutt.
>
> That's actually a great article. You should read it.
How do you think I found the quote?
> We'll start with the quote in the subject line:
>
> <quote>
> My experience is that people who first try Linux absolutely hate it.
> If they stick with it for six months they can’t figure out how they
> ever made do with Windows. Once you’re past the learning curve the
> advantages of Linux become pretty darned obvious.
> </quote>
>
> Not quite the same spin as the subject.
There is no spin in the subject line. Just part of a quote.
> Not only that, there's something eerily familiar about the questions
> posed
> in the article:
>
> <quote>
> having to read and learn and ask questions from strangers (because
> nobody else uses linux) just to boot WITHout destroying the precious
> winNdows
> enviro that the rest of the family DEPENDS on is LUDICROUS.
> </quote>
>
> <quote>
> Problem was, I couldn’t even figure out how to install a
> driver….where the driver files had to go….what the extension were
> (inf)….and stuff like….where is the .dll library and so on.
> </quote>
>
> These and other questions were answered quite well in the article (you
> *really* should read it). It occurs to me that I've seen these sorts
> of complaints before. Right here in this group. Repeatedly. From
> the OP.
No fella, you haven't. I've never posted things like that to cola. I've
posted issues where Linux craps out while you try to use it for basic
things: package mgmt, switching window managers, reading newsgroups, etc.
> Six months may be a stretch for most, but a lifetime won't suffice
> for a few.
I ran RedHat for a couple weeks in 1997 and wasn't impressed. Then I
spotted cola in 2004 and I was intrigued that so many maniacs gathered in
one Usenet group.
> Have a nice day.
I did, thanks. I deployed a new Access/Oracle system, and the users are
impressed.
The Ghost In The Machine
<o...@rooftop.invalid>
wrote
on Tue, 6 Nov 2007 01:40:43 +0000 (UTC)
<p5892zr...@rooftop.invalid>:
Showoff. :-) But that's definitely a tribute to vi's power
(and bc's flexibility if one knows its command set).
Can Notepad and Windows' calculator match it? :-)
--
#191, ewi...@earthlink.net
GNU and improved.
DFS
> Verily I say unto thee, that skydweller spake thusly:
>
>> but that's no reason to let the trolls go unchallenged.
>
> Indulging their trolling only encourages them.
I'm not a troll. Indulging me only generates stimulating cola discussions.
> If every advocate in COLA ignored every WinTroll's post, then the
> WinTrolls would be doing nothing other than talking to themselves,
And cola would dry up and blow away due to the sheer tedium of Roy [H]omer
Kent's pious posts and Rex Ballard's schizoid claims and 7's baby-talk.
> which would eventually discourage them, and they'd give up and leave.
> That's what happens when you ignore attention seekers.
You ever step back and look at your posts? Very 2-dimensional: exaggerated
hyperbole about Linux, or shrill anti-MS hatred. Exhibit 1:
"But more than anything else, XP is stunningly proficient at simply
destroying /itself/. A stiff breeze will blow it over, and more often
than not, the only recourse is the world famous WipeNReinstall®, as
recommended by highly qualified MSCE professionals the world over.
But fear not, Windows fans, for we have Vista to the rescue ... twice
the bloat, twice the crashes, twice the price, twice the restrictions,
and half the functionality."
You're as bad a troll as anybody you named.
> If they wanted to be reasonable and constructive, then these Trolls
> should report any actual failings they find to the respective devel
> list or forum, not come into COLA and use it as a weapon to win a
> victory for Microsoft, then sit around like a bunch of hyenas
> laughing about it.
>
> But of course, they won't do that, because that is not their agenda.
Nobody has any agenda, except to alleviate boredom. I could easily turn
your words around and say the same thing about cola idiots: they're here
only to tear down MS and Windows.
MS is out there working on interoperability issues with Linux; cola idiots
are in here lying about everything MS does or says or sells.
> You have the likes of DooFy, who patently despises altruism,
Just the supposed altruism you and various "advocates" claim to engage in ==
freeloading.
Why don't you understand whining about MS on cola isn't doing a damn thing
to further open source software? If you had a clue you'd be helping
OpenOffice build a decent Access replacement.
> and labels anyone who doesn't pay (in money) for
> absolutely everything they touch, a "freeloader".
Suse Linux user desktop survey
http://files.opensuse.org/opensuse/en/6/6c/Opensuse_survey_102_data_final.pdf
* 78% download it for free
* 85% do nothing but use the software (ie no contributing or bug reporting,
etc)
> In fact, this reprehensible goon is so
> obsessed with money,
That I recently forced a 33-1/3% raise on my biggest client. Sweet!
(actually I gave them a 45-day notice and made it clear they owned copyright
to everything I built for them, and they were free to do as they wished with
the systems. Every single manager/dept I notified accepted my rate
increase - which was the first in 6 years).
> and despises the principles of Freedom and
> altruism so much,
It's true that I couldn't care less whether the source code is available,
but I like that you can try Linux for free, and I do appreciate the generous
tech support I've gotten a couple times from OSS people (not on cola of
course - here I get shouted at for no good reason).
> that he spends his time hunting for obscure
> software with obscure problems,
I hunt for nothing. Linux bugs and slopware practically mow you down
(though I must say this RedHat-based StartCom distro - despite a few
glitches - is pretty solid).
> just so he can have a good laugh
> about it in COLA.
It's fine entertainment.
> He claims to be a developer, and yet instead of
> spending his time constructively finding solutions, he'd rather
> compile lists of problems, to use as a weapon against COLA and Linux.
This is what you cola morons do with MS and Windows. It's telling that
you've never once attacked Roy "Lying Spamming Idiot" Schestowitz or Rex
Ballard or 7 or any number of other "advocates" for their stupid lies about
MS. It shows what kind of person you are, [H]-[H]-[H]omer.
> AFAICT he is nothing but a VB "developer",
What's wrong with that?
> with so many years invested
> in Microsoft's proprietary solutions,
Before I used MS tools I used a good bit of Borland and Lotus software.
Then MS captured the corporate market and I went with the jobs. Plus I like
VB and Access; it's easy enough that I can focus on the data and solutions
without the technology slowing me down.
I'm not all MS: I much prefer Oracle over SQL Server, and I like Java.
> that he is shit scared that the
> inevitable rise in popularity of FOSS and Open Standards will make
> people like him redundant, out on the street, and penniless.
I'll probably work for 15-20 more years (not the retire early type); I have
no worries whatsoever about FOSS putting me out of a job. I know it hurts
your feelings of Freedom, but you have to face reality: open source is
simply not of a quality capable of supplanting commercial code in large
corporations.
MySQL?
PostgreSQL?
xvidcap?
KSnapShot?
OpenOffice?
KOffice?
CUPS?
mutt?
Evolution?
gnucash?
gnumeric?
nautilus?
Thunderbird?
Scribus?
Cinelarra?
These are the best programs the OSS world can deliver? Ouch!
> Can't
> have that; he'd have no pennies to lay at the feet of the golden idol
> he keeps in his cupboard, as he kneels to worship it every night.
My guess is you keep as tight a rein on your money and accounts as I do.
> No, rather than graciously accepting the ever-changing world of IT,
My IT world hasn't changed much in 12 solid years.
> people like DooFy would rather sabotage the efforts of those who wish
> to bring about those changes.
Let me help you - here's a soapbox you can stand up on to preach.
> If he has any skills whatsoever, he could easily retrain
> to meet the the requirements of FOSS and Open Standards,
It's the other way around: the FOSS and open standards software is supposed
to meet the requirements of the users and developers. And those
requirements have evolved and developed with years of exposure to a huge
universe of incredibly good Windows and commercial software.
> so one must assume that he is either a talentless hack, or
> a mindless bigot (or possibly both).
How kind of you, [H]omer! You FOSS guys are salt of the Earth, I'll tell
you that.
JEDIDIAH
> It severely pains me to say this, but how about totally disbanding
> COLA, it's not as if it's of any use. In fact you would be better off
> NOT advocating LINUX, you're actually doing it a lot of damage. Anyone
Well, the idea of "running your own mailserver" and "running spam
filtering rules on it" in the abstract is not an idea that deserves
such derision. It just happens to be the sort of thing considered
only to be the domain of people willing to run their own copy of
postfix and to muck around with procmail rules.
No one has bothered to make it an "appliance" sort of thing
yet (like Tivo).
Although oddly enough Forbes like to gush over MCE which is
the anti-thesis of the "appliance" approach.
> who wants to disparage the Open Source crowd, all they have to do is
> point to here. That's the unvarnished trutth, fellas, your the longest
> running joke on Usenet, but it wouldn't be 'tough love' if I didn't
> tell it like it is.
>
> There are some decent people here and they know who they are. It
> pisses me off seeing them day after day, subject to disruption and
> personal abuse. And all you (in this thread) get to say is, oh there
> might me lurkers here who we must educate. All I can say to that is
> BOLLIX !!!
>
--
Nothing quite gives you an understanding of Oracle's |||
continued popularity as does an attempt to do some / | \
simple date manipulations in postgres.
Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
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High Plains Thumper
> High Plains Thumper wrote:
>
>> When all the trolls including the sux and fishy troll
>> stopped posting for about a month, it was revealing how much
>> this newsgroup has been trashed. The number of advocate
>> posters have dwindled considerably.
>
> Which has nothing to do with anti-advocates or those of us who
> don't suck Linux' ass.
Interesting point (rest of gobshite snipped).
--
HPT
Linonut
Quit whinin'.
Linonut
> Linonut, Sinister, Ghost do you mind answering the following: As fully
First, why don't you look in the mirror.
Second, I actually enjoy the chaos, most of the time.
Third, often a troll-dude makes a point that seems valid on the face of
it, yet doesn't make sense to me, and the subsequent research can be
enlightening. And often these arguments are useful "in the real world".
Oh, by the way, I am no advocate. I'll mention Linux, and push for
open-source as the first thing to try, but that is mostly because I've
found Windows and most proprietary applications to be problematic or
expensive. Why toss money into the crapper?
And I've learned a lot about Microsoft (and other corporations) who push
their products in some obscene ways, since I've been exposed to Free
software.
Finally, the chaos and disinformation campaign engendered by Microsoft
and its zealot disciples is by no means limited to COLA. It is all over
the Internet IT trade sites. Here's an example:
http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=1616
Note the postings of No_Ax_to_Grind. He may be correct about Microsoft
not /needing/ to standardize now, even if that does not seem to be
Microsoft's attitude. But he obviously has an ax to grind, and it has
an MSFT logo on it. As for abuse, note these two entries:
Message has been deleted. Linux User 147560 | 10/31/07
Message has been deleted. No_Ax_to_Grind | 10/31/07
There's no escape, except by avoiding the Internet and the IT trade
journals.
--
Tux rox!
Linonut
> On 5 Nov, 12:09, Sinister Midget <fardblos...@gmail.com> wrote:
This is that group, Dougie boy! Wake up and smell the coffee! <grin>
Here's another one:
--
Tux rox!
Linonut
> Verily I say unto thee, that Doug Mentohl spake thusly:
>
>> Linonut, Sinister, Ghost...
>
> I like all of the aforementioned Linux posters. They are witty,
> intelligent, and contribute much of interest to the discussion.
>
> However ... I also second this opinion that they should stop giving
> voice to this bunch of malevolent reprobate WinTrolls with a vicious
> anti-Linux agenda. These are the kind of thugs who should be behind
> bars, never mind spreading their fascist propaganda on Usenet.
>
> IMHO engaging such people in conversation is tantamount to aiding and
> abetting a felon.
Well, your tirades (and I enjoy them, by the way, and I agree with
their attitude, if not necessary their exaggerations) also feed trolls.
But who cares? This is the COLA Bar and Pub.
Swig down a couple cold ones and start swingin'!
> About the only one of them that I can even tolerate is Erik, depending
> on whether or not he's being reasonable, or just shuffling as usual.
Shuff shuff sho nuff, do da funky shuffle!
--
Tux rox!
DFS
'Cause I beat your ass. Again.
High Plains Thumper
Really? You think so? Not by the number of my messages you
slinked away from. Try again, trollboi.
--
HPT
DFS
I don't slink away from anything.
I completely Reisered your ass in this thread, and you d*mn well know it.
[H]omer
> Well, your tirades (and I enjoy them, by the way, and I agree with
> their attitude, if not necessary their exaggerations) also feed
> trolls.
Fair point. However, it occurs to me, after some consideration, that I
would /still/ be outraged by e.g. Microsoft's latest sabotage of the
Mandriva deal in Nigeria, /regardless/ of whether or not any Microsoft
supporters were "listening".
I'm sure that some might find it hard to believe, given my colourful
outbursts, that I am not just baiting the Trolls, but I really am /not/
doing that. Yes, I really am outraged.
> But who cares? This is the COLA Bar and Pub.
>
> Swig down a couple cold ones and start swingin'!
"Q: Is this the right room for an argument?
A: I've told you once."
Pyhonesque humour aside, I'm sure some people do just come to COLA for a
good scrap. And yes I suppose it's easy to get caught up in the rivalry,
and just end up fighting for its own sake, but IMHO the issues are far
too important to treat this battle like it was no more significant than
a game of football. I am not playing.
>> About the only one of them that I can even tolerate is Erik,
>> depending on whether or not he's being reasonable, or just
>> shuffling as usual.
>
> Shuff shuff sho nuff, do da funky shuffle!
I've seen him explode as colourfully as myself, on occasions, but most
of the time he seems to display remarkable composure, even if he is full
of crap.
--
K.
http://slated.org
.----
| "[Microsoft] are willing to lose money for years and years just to
| make sure that you don't make any money, either." - Bob Cringely.
| - http://blog.businessofsoftware.org/2007/07/cringely-the-un.html
`----
Fedora release 7 (Moonshine) on sky, running kernel 2.6.22.1-41.fc7
13:58:54 up 89 days, 13:53, 2 users, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
bob
> http://www.oreillynet.com/linux/blog/2007/02/
performing_brain_surgery_on_yo.html?CMP=OTC-0O724Z062301&ATT=Performing
+Brain+Surgery+On+Yourself
>
> Hate's a strong word. I would think first-time Linux engenders - at
> worst - scorn, contempt, and derision.
>
> But hate? That should be reserved for stuff like vi and slrn and mutt.
Go away moron
Mark Kent
> On 5 Nov, 12:09, Sinister Midget <fardblos...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Finally, the person who just started lurking has no idea that the Windiots are what they are
>
> come here to find out about anything. This place is totally destroyed,
> and it pains me further to say this, with co-operation from the so
> called 'good' advocates.
>
> Do you seriously think that what goes on here influences anyone. It's
> a laughing stock is all and all with the co-operation of the likes of
> you, now don't get all insulted, I'm just telling it as it is.
>
> How many decent people have walked away from this place .. ? COLA is
> an embarrassment even for someone called 'Doug Mentohl' and it takes a
> lot to embarrase me .. :)
>
Don't let the trolls get you down so much. They will be laughing at
this, you're feeding their egos with these suggestions.
Cola is cleaner than it has been for years, with a lot of excellent
content. That some people are paid to disrupt the group is not a
surprise to any of us, I think, and as you've said elsewhere, the best
thing to do is to ignore them.
Unfortunately, some of our regulars cannot resist responding - my advice
is to killfile them, thus eliminating temptation.
--
| Mark Kent -- mark at ellandroad dot demon dot co dot uk |
| Cola faq: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/linux/advocacy/faq-and-primer/ |
| Cola trolls: http://colatrolls.blogspot.com/ |
| My (new) blog: http://www.thereisnomagic.org |
Mark Kent
> Verily I say unto thee, that skydweller spake thusly:
>
>> but that's no reason to let the trolls go unchallenged.
>
> Indulging their trolling only encourages them.
>
> If every advocate in COLA ignored every WinTroll's post, then the
> WinTrolls would be doing nothing other than talking to themselves,
> which would eventually discourage them, and they'd give up and leave.
> That's what happens when you ignore attention seekers.
>
> The problem with accepting these so-called "challenges", is that it's
> the same thing as being baited by someone calling you "chicken". The
> Trolls do *not* have any valid and reasonable arguments, they are not
> here to provide constructive criticism, they are here purely for the
> purpose of sabotage, and anyone encouraging them in that endeavour is
> just aiding a saboteur in his destruction.
>
Agreed. There really is no value to it. I've just seen another series
of threads popping up along those very traditional lines of "here is
something Windows can do which Linux can't". Apart from being wrong,
it's really a complete waste of time. This whole debate is really about
economics and technology. Feature lists are a minor detail now,
although I'll agree that once upon a time they were significant
adoption barriers, this is simply no longer the case.
My parents-in-law now have an iMac runninng OSX and a laptop running
Ubuntu, and they're absolutely pleased as punch with both of them. In
fact, the feedback when the Ubuntu install was done was "this is just
like new".
They've got used to not having to reboot, not losing work, not having to
worry about viruses, and not having to re-install everything every few
weeks, and are even starting to look down just a little on people who
think that spending weekends re-installing windows makes someone a
computing expert. These are smart, but retired, people.
<snip>
> No, rather than graciously accepting the ever-changing world of IT,
> people like DooFy would rather sabotage the efforts of those who wish to
> bring about those changes. If he has any skills whatsoever, he could
> easily retrain to meet the the requirements of FOSS and Open Standards,
> so one must assume that he is either a talentless hack, or a mindless
> bigot (or possibly both).
>
> Then you have the like of Ray Lopez, someone who admits to not even
> having used Linux in *10 years*, and yet he comes here and spews all
> kinds of filth about it, and uses COLA like a Microsoft stock-ticker, as
> though the most important thing in the world was making money, and that
> the technical merit of software is irrelevant, as is the immoral methods
> employed by Microsoft to further their monopolistic empire.
>
> And then there's those like Alexander Terekhov, a vile right-wing
> extremist who uses his hatred of Stallman, Moglen, the FSF, and Freedom
> in general; as a soapbox for his twisted vitriol.
>
> And of course who could forget people like Nudds and flatfish, a pair of
> psychopathic lunatics who stalk COLA using pseudonyms to make ad hominem
> attacks against anyone who dares to support anything but Microsoft and
> their Crudware.
>
> And last but not least we have idiots like Hadron, someone with the IQ
> of a tadpole, spouting utter gibberish, and being rewarded with
> "corrections" from those naive enough to accept his "challenges".
>
> So explain to me, how can anyone justify even giving these thugs the
> time of day, much less feeding their trolling habits?
>
Hear hear!
If everyone were to ignore the trolls, it would not be long before they
disappeared. I think many of them are already spending more time in
other fora - just ask Roy for his current list of Digg stalkers.
Several of them came from here.