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Jono Bacon's Windows 7 Home Studio.

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Michael Ngai

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Nov 13, 2010, 2:27:10 PM11/13/10
to
Why doesn't Linux Ubuntu icon Jono Bacon,(Jonathan Edward James Bacon)
use Ubuntu Studio for his home studio?

He uses Windows 7 not Linux.

http://www.jonobacon.org/2010/11/10/reasons-why-i-love-my-desktop/

"In addition to my Ubuntu machines, I have a Windows 7 machine that powers my
home studio."

So why not Ubuntu Studio?
Not good enough for you?
I can understand that. Really I can.

Hadron

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Nov 13, 2010, 3:06:31 PM11/13/10
to
Michael Ngai <incao...@gmail.org> writes:


He also says good things about Unity and was disparaging about Linux and
the GUI desktop a few years back. Clearly a wintroll.....

RayLopez99

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Nov 13, 2010, 3:52:26 PM11/13/10
to

Well, if I read this reply to his blog correctly (below), it's because
his employer has enough sense to require Windows 7 at work. Those
that know about how the real world works know enough to use Windows.
That simple. Real Work and Serious Work is done by Windows and only
by Windows. But none is done by Linux. None.

RL

I agree Jono. I HAVE to use Windows 7 at my office but my home system
is Ubuntu.
So, thanks to you and all of the rest of the Ubuntu community.

~~~ Peace,

Jack+, LC

Homer

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Nov 13, 2010, 4:19:04 PM11/13/10
to
Verily I say unto thee, that Michael Ngai spake thusly:

> Why doesn't Linux Ubuntu icon Jono Bacon,(Jonathan Edward James Bacon)
> use Ubuntu Studio for his home studio?

Probably for the same reason that it took Canonical nearly five years to
finally release Launchpad under a Free Software license. His attitude
towards freedom is "pragmatic", putting it diplomatically.

--
K. | [ubuntu]
http://slated.org |
Fedora 8 (Werewolf) on sky | 1. Ancient African word meaning
kernel 2.6.31.5, up 30 days | 'I can't configure Debian'

Marti van Lin

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Nov 13, 2010, 5:21:45 PM11/13/10
to
On 13-11-10 22:19, Homer wrote:

> Verily I say unto thee, that Michael Ngai spake thusly:
>> Why doesn't Linux Ubuntu icon Jono Bacon,(Jonathan Edward James Bacon)
>> use Ubuntu Studio for his home studio?
>
> Probably for the same reason that it took Canonical nearly five years to
> finally release Launchpad under a Free Software license. His attitude
> towards freedom is "pragmatic", putting it diplomatically.

I admit that I'm currently still using Ubuntu. Yet I'm aware of the fact
that Canonical has just as much in common with Software Freedom as
Novell has.

It's all about profit, profit and profit. And it's getting worst by the
day :-(

--
|_|0|_| Marti T. van Lin, alias ML2MST
|_|_|0| Registered GNU/Linux user 513040
|0|0|0| http://www.soundclick.com/martivanlin

Glenn Hall

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Nov 13, 2010, 7:53:06 PM11/13/10
to
On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 23:21:45 +0100, Marti van Lin wrote:

> On 13-11-10 22:19, Homer wrote:
>
>> Verily I say unto thee, that Michael Ngai spake thusly:
>>> Why doesn't Linux Ubuntu icon Jono Bacon,(Jonathan Edward James Bacon)
>>> use Ubuntu Studio for his home studio?
>>
>> Probably for the same reason that it took Canonical nearly five years to
>> finally release Launchpad under a Free Software license. His attitude
>> towards freedom is "pragmatic", putting it diplomatically.
>
> I admit that I'm currently still using Ubuntu. Yet I'm aware of the fact
> that Canonical has just as much in common with Software Freedom as
> Novell has.
>
> It's all about profit, profit and profit. And it's getting worst by the
> day :-(

I'm still using Ubuntu as well but even though I'm not the
activist type, I'm wondering about the direction the distribution
is taking. I don't mind them wanting to make some money but I wish
they would be more up front about the direction rather than
slipping in little pieces of the puzzle here and there with some
long term goal in mind. The reason I like Ubuntu is because it has
always worked well for me, even through the upgrades. I had a
minor problem with the keyboard intermittently lagging in 9.10 I
think, but it got fixed with the first updates. The support for
Ubuntu is also very good as is the community.

Chris Ahlstrom

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Nov 13, 2010, 7:54:13 PM11/13/10
to
Michael Ngai pulled this Usenet face plant:

Yeah, the whole URL is about how far Linux has come, and all the
applications he uses it for, with a series of screen shots and descriptions
that shows that he loves his Linux desktop.

And yet you have to focus on that one little sentence. Let me put back the
context:

In addition to my Ubuntu machines, I have a Windows 7 machine that powers

my home studio. When I compare and contrast my Ubuntu installation with
Windows 7, it feels like Ubuntu is much better attuned to what most users
want - awesome web browsing, email, communications, media playback
and production, and a consistent, attractive experience.

So he's uses the more popular Windows tool for one of his tasks?

More power to him. He probably has used those tools for a long time, and
wants to stick with them. That's choice.

--
Government lies, and newspapers lie, but in a democracy they are different lies.

Michael Ngai

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Nov 13, 2010, 8:10:19 PM11/13/10
to
Chris Ahlstrom <ahls...@xzoozy.com> wrote in
news:ibnbu8$asg$1...@news.eternal-september.org:

The problem is not what he uses but who he is and what kind of a message he
is sending to the Linux and Windows community. This is a perfect example of
setting himself up to be attacked.

Do you know who Jono is?

It would be like Ballmer admitting his family uses Macs for some of their
work. Maybe not quite at that level, but Jono is very well known as a Linux
evangelist.

I suspect he uses Windows in his studio because of hardware support issues
with Linux not because he wants to stick with it. Anyway I left your
message because I was playing devil's advocate and doing pretty much what a
Windows zealot will do with a situation like this.

Rathbone

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Nov 13, 2010, 8:23:24 PM11/13/10
to
On 2010-11-14, Michael Ngai wrote:
[snip]

> The problem is not what he uses but who he is and what kind of a message he
> is sending to the Linux and Windows community. This is a perfect example of
> setting himself up to be attacked.
>
> Do you know who Jono is?
>
> It would be like Ballmer admitting his family uses Macs for some of their
> work. Maybe not quite at that level, but Jono is very well known as a Linux
> evangelist.
[snip]

Not only that, but he /started the friggin' Jokosher (f.k.a. *JonoEdit*)
project./

Hate to dig up an old buzzphrase, but he ::ahem:: /doesn't eat his own
dog food./

I don't have anything *strongly* against Windows 7; it just doesn't suit
my personal needs and its user interface is pretty much the exact
opposite of what I look for in an interface.

But for the love of god, if you can't even use your own recording
software to do some, ::ahem::, *recording*, then you might as well shut
down the whole project, or at least admit it's a failure.

Snit

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Nov 13, 2010, 8:30:17 PM11/13/10
to
Michael Ngai stated in post Xns9E2FCD6...@94.75.214.39 on 11/13/10
6:10 PM:

He did, among other things, the KDE Usability Study... and since any mention
of usability studies is shunned by most "advocates", his work is likely not
respected here.

> It would be like Ballmer admitting his family uses Macs for some of their
> work. Maybe not quite at that level, but Jono is very well known as a Linux
> evangelist.
>
> I suspect he uses Windows in his studio because of hardware support issues
> with Linux not because he wants to stick with it. Anyway I left your
> message because I was playing devil's advocate and doing pretty much what a
> Windows zealot will do with a situation like this.
>

--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


Lawrence D'Oliveiro

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Nov 13, 2010, 9:00:57 PM11/13/10
to
In message <ibn31q$jlk$1...@news.albasani.net>, Marti van Lin wrote:

> I admit that I'm currently still using Ubuntu. Yet I'm aware of the fact
> that Canonical has just as much in common with Software Freedom as
> Novell has.
>
> It's all about profit, profit and profit.

Profit is not incompatible with freedom. One of the common strawmen raised
against Free Software is that it is somehow anti-capitalist. Don’t fall into
that trap.

Hadron

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Nov 13, 2010, 9:02:34 PM11/13/10
to
Michael Ngai <incao...@gmail.org> writes:

Erm no. It's because the apps he needs only run on Windows.

Michael Ngai

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Nov 13, 2010, 9:52:40 PM11/13/10
to
Hadron<hadro...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:ibnfvq$pjs$2...@news.eternal-september.org:

> Michael Ngai <incao...@gmail.org> writes:
>> I suspect he uses Windows in his studio because of hardware support
>> issues with Linux not because he wants to stick with it. Anyway I left
>> your message because I was playing devil's advocate and doing pretty
>> much what a Windows zealot will do with a situation like this.
>
> Erm no. It's because the apps he needs only run on Windows.

Actually it is because of hardware.

http://techrights.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/irc-log-techrights-
12112010.html

MinceR jono: iirc you said they gave you a copy of vista7 [Nov 12
16:23]
schestowitz You're a symbol of Ubuntu, don't feed them ammo cause the trolls
*do* use it. I see it.. [Nov 12 16:23]
jono MinceR, yeah, I asked them for it [Nov 12 16:23]
MinceR even worse [Nov 12 16:23]
jono because I needed Win 7 to power hardware that doesnt work in Linux
[Nov 12 16:23

Hadron

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Nov 13, 2010, 10:38:42 PM11/13/10
to
Michael Ngai <incao...@gmail.org> writes:

And what runs on that HW? Yes ... apps.

Michael Ngai

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Nov 13, 2010, 10:49:53 PM11/13/10
to
Hadron<hadro...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:ibnlk2$bss$2...@news.eternal-september.org:

You can't be serious?
He specifically said hardware.
He did not say applications.
Let's say it's a scanner that doesn't have Linux drivers, how is that even
remotely related to applications other than Linux not having a driver?
If it was an application he would have said so.
He didn't and he seems to be quite a technical and specific person.

You are squirming and not doing a very good job of it.

Gregory Shearman

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Nov 14, 2010, 12:40:43 AM11/14/10
to

I agree. There's nothing wrong with Ubuntu or their philosophy. There's
nothing wrong with making a buck using open source software. I find
Ubuntu netbook edition to be perfect for my eepc701.

--
Regards,

Gregory.
Gentoo Linux - Penguin Power

RonB

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Nov 14, 2010, 2:05:56 AM11/14/10
to
On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 05:40:43 +0000, Gregory Shearman wrote:

> I agree. There's nothing wrong with Ubuntu or their philosophy. There's
> nothing wrong with making a buck using open source software. I find
> Ubuntu netbook edition to be perfect for my eepc701.

I've got nothing really against Ubuntu. I just don't personally like it
that much.

Choice is good.

--
RonB
Registered Linux User #498581
CentOS 5.5 or VectorLinux Deluxe 6.0

Chris Ahlstrom

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Nov 14, 2010, 8:40:35 AM11/14/10
to
Michael Ngai pulled this Usenet face plant:

> Chris Ahlstrom <ahls...@xzoozy.com> wrote in
> news:ibnbu8$asg$1...@news.eternal-september.org:
>

>>> http://www.jonobacon.org/2010/11/10/reasons-why-i-love-my-desktop/


>>
>> So he's uses the more popular Windows tool for one of his tasks?
>> More power to him. He probably has used those tools for a long time,
>> and wants to stick with them. That's choice.
>
> The problem is not what he uses but who he is and what kind of a message he
> is sending to the Linux and Windows community. This is a perfect example of
> setting himself up to be attacked.
>
> Do you know who Jono is?

Nope.

> It would be like Ballmer admitting his family uses Macs for some of their
> work. Maybe not quite at that level, but Jono is very well known as a Linux
> evangelist.
>
> I suspect he uses Windows in his studio because of hardware support issues
> with Linux not because he wants to stick with it.

Who knows? He doesn't say.

By the way, Linux doesn't have hardware-support issues, when you get right
down to it -- Linux has vendor-support issues. It's not Linux's fault (or
responsibility) that a vendor provides support only for the dominant
platform.

Linux is somewhat outside the market. This is a good thing, even if
it sometimes delays support for certain pieces of hardware.

My daughter bought a Canon camera. Nice camera, but its USB connector does
not support USB 1.0 or 2.0. It won't even light up the port. And, in fact,
it's MTP support is actually broken. mtp-detect issues a message that
the vendor/device ID combination is unknown.

Of course, Canon made sure that its broken implementation of MTP
works with Windows. MTP is just another Microsoft infection that Linux
has to fight off:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Transfer_Protocol

Media Transfer Protocol (commonly referred to as MTP) is part of the
"Windows Media" framework and thus closely related to Windows Media
Player. Windows Vista has built-in support for MTP. Support for Media
Transfer Protocol in Windows XP requires the installation of Windows
Media Player 10 or higher.[2] Mac and Linux systems have software
packages to support it.

The USB Implementers Forum device working group standardized MTP as a
fully fledged Universal Serial Bus (USB) device class in May 2008.[3] MTP
is since then, an official extension to PTP and shares the same class
code.

Yep. Looks like Canon's implementation for this camera is broken.

--
Lots of girls can be had for a song. Unfortunately, it often turns out to
be the wedding march.

Chris Ahlstrom

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Nov 14, 2010, 8:42:15 AM11/14/10
to
Rathbone pulled this Usenet face plant:

Apparently he's been using Windows for recording for years.

--
Bagbiter:
1. n.; Equipment or program that fails, usually intermittently. 2.
adj.: Failing hardware or software. "This bagbiting system won't let me get
out of spacewar." Usage: verges on obscenity. Grammatically separable; one
may speak of "biting the bag". Synonyms: LOSER, LOSING, CRETINOUS,
BLETCHEROUS, BARFUCIOUS, CHOMPER, CHOMPING.

An Old Friend

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Nov 14, 2010, 9:59:05 AM11/14/10
to
On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 08:40:35 -0500, Chris Ahlstrom chinwagged:

> My daughter bought a Canon camera. Nice camera, but its USB connector
> does not support USB 1.0 or 2.0. It won't even light up the port. And,
> in fact, it's MTP support is actually broken. mtp-detect issues a
> message that the vendor/device ID combination is unknown.
>
> Of course, Canon made sure that its broken implementation of MTP works
> with Windows. MTP is just another Microsoft infection that Linux has to
> fight off:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Transfer_Protocol
>
> Media Transfer Protocol (commonly referred to as MTP) is part of the
> "Windows Media" framework and thus closely related to Windows Media
> Player. Windows Vista has built-in support for MTP. Support for Media
> Transfer Protocol in Windows XP requires the installation of Windows
> Media Player 10 or higher.[2] Mac and Linux systems have software
> packages to support it.
>
> The USB Implementers Forum device working group standardized MTP as a
> fully fledged Universal Serial Bus (USB) device class in May 2008.[3]
> MTP is since then, an official extension to PTP and shares the same
> class code.
>
> Yep. Looks like Canon's implementation for this camera is broken.

One would think that a company would make their products as useful as
possible for as many computers as possible. I was given an Insignia brand
camera for Christmas a couple of years ago. It came with a Windows driver
disk, but my Mac and my Ubuntu laptops recognized it instantly.

The only thing I can figure is that Canon is using the "be great at one
thing instead of good at all things" approach to computer compatibility.
Maybe they think that if their products work on all operating systems
then people will think there's something wrong with the product. Perhaps
they think that others will believe that compromises had to be made to
make the product work on all operating systems, when in fact it appears
to be the opposite: compromises have to be made to ensure that a product
works with only one company's operating system.

Snit

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Nov 14, 2010, 11:09:56 AM11/14/10
to
Lawrence D'Oliveiro stated in post ibnfsp$76c$6...@lust.ihug.co.nz on 11/13/10
7:00 PM:

> against Free Software is that it is somehow anti-capitalist. Donšt fall into
> that trap.

Well, the idea that the software and code can be had for free is true...
that is a part of the license. Other things can be sold (or, if you can
find people foolish enough to pay for what they can get for free you can
even sell the software)... as long as you also make it available for free.
Services, however, need not be free.

But free things are not anti-capitalist. What a strange idea... I would
love to see someone try to support that.


--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


Rathbone

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Nov 14, 2010, 12:09:13 PM11/14/10
to
On 2010-11-14, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> Michael Ngai pulled this Usenet face plant:
[snip]

>> I suspect he uses Windows in his studio because of hardware support issues
>> with Linux not because he wants to stick with it.
>
> Who knows? He doesn't say.
>
> By the way, Linux doesn't have hardware-support issues, when you get right
> down to it -- Linux has vendor-support issues. It's not Linux's fault (or
> responsibility) that a vendor provides support only for the dominant
> platform.

Maybe, but that distinction is academic at best.

At the end of the day, all that matters is: Can Camera/Printer X work
on Operating System Y (with or without some coaxing).

People aren't going to say "Oh, my camera doesn't work, but it's not
Linux's *fault* so it's OK."

As an aside, people---including me---often praise Linux by saying that
more peripherals are supported right out of the box than Windows, even
though some aren't supported at all. I think that at the end of the
day, it's more important to most people that they can get their hardware
working *somehow*, even if they have to pop in a CD and hit next a few
times and reboot a couple times.

> Linux is somewhat outside the market. This is a good thing, even if
> it sometimes delays support for certain pieces of hardware.

[snip]

I don't really agree with this. I think Linux is a good OS because it's
a solid and secure implementation of UNIX, has good desktop software and
excellent server software and works very well as an embedded platform.

But I think that its hardware support for desktop systems (mainly video
drivers and printer drivers, in my experience) could be better.

And yes, I *know* some of those drivers are userspace drivers and not
"Linux" problems per se. Again, another academic distinction that we
needn't bore ourselves with here on COLA.

Hadron

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Nov 14, 2010, 12:26:51 PM11/14/10
to
Chris Ahlstrom <ahls...@xzoozy.com> writes:

> Michael Ngai pulled this Usenet face plant:
>
>> Chris Ahlstrom <ahls...@xzoozy.com> wrote in
>> news:ibnbu8$asg$1...@news.eternal-september.org:
>>
>>>> http://www.jonobacon.org/2010/11/10/reasons-why-i-love-my-desktop/
>>>
>>> So he's uses the more popular Windows tool for one of his tasks?
>>> More power to him. He probably has used those tools for a long time,
>>> and wants to stick with them. That's choice.
>>
>> The problem is not what he uses but who he is and what kind of a message he
>> is sending to the Linux and Windows community. This is a perfect example of
>> setting himself up to be attacked.
>>
>> Do you know who Jono is?
>
> Nope.
>
>> It would be like Ballmer admitting his family uses Macs for some of their
>> work. Maybe not quite at that level, but Jono is very well known as a Linux
>> evangelist.
>>
>> I suspect he uses Windows in his studio because of hardware support issues
>> with Linux not because he wants to stick with it.
>
> Who knows? He doesn't say.
>
> By the way, Linux doesn't have hardware-support issues, when you get right
> down to it -- Linux has vendor-support issues. It's not Linux's fault (or
> responsibility) that a vendor provides support only for the dominant
> platform.

Must you be such a moron all the time?

It's termed Linux support issues. Linux doesnt support that HW then its
a Linux issues as well as a source of complaint to the HW mfr.

Glenn Hall

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Nov 14, 2010, 12:36:49 PM11/14/10
to
On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 17:09:13 +0000 (UTC), Rathbone wrote:

> On 2010-11-14, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>> Michael Ngai pulled this Usenet face plant:
> [snip]
>>> I suspect he uses Windows in his studio because of hardware support issues
>>> with Linux not because he wants to stick with it.
>>
>> Who knows? He doesn't say.
>>
>> By the way, Linux doesn't have hardware-support issues, when you get right
>> down to it -- Linux has vendor-support issues. It's not Linux's fault (or
>> responsibility) that a vendor provides support only for the dominant
>> platform.
>
> Maybe, but that distinction is academic at best.
>
> At the end of the day, all that matters is: Can Camera/Printer X work
> on Operating System Y (with or without some coaxing).
>
> People aren't going to say "Oh, my camera doesn't work, but it's not
> Linux's *fault* so it's OK."
>
> As an aside, people---including me---often praise Linux by saying that
> more peripherals are supported right out of the box than Windows, even
> though some aren't supported at all. I think that at the end of the
> day, it's more important to most people that they can get their hardware
> working *somehow*, even if they have to pop in a CD and hit next a few
> times and reboot a couple times.

I just make certain the hardware I purchase is fully supported by
Linux. It's actually not that difficult to avoid poorly supported
hardware if one does the research prior to the purchase. I would
be researching the device for Windows as well, not support but how
well it functions compared to others.

The biggest problem Linux has is with personal portable devices.
Sure many, if not most allow mounting the device as storage and
using it that way. The problem is most people don't want to do
that. They want to sync with their email programs, update the
device via the computer and so forth. With Linux they loose a lot
of these functions.

Homer

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Nov 14, 2010, 12:33:25 PM11/14/10
to
Verily I say unto thee, that Michael Ngai spake thusly:

> You can't be serious?


> He specifically said hardware.
> He did not say applications.
>
> Let's say it's a scanner that doesn't have Linux drivers, how is that
> even remotely related to applications other than Linux not having a
> driver?

Yes, and not that I'd ever defend "Hadron", but the why would Jono be
running his entire recording studio on Windows 7 ... simply because of a
/scanner/. That just doesn't make any sense.

So what point are you trying to make? Are you just annoyed that some
supposedly Open Sauce evangelist is being hypocritical and disloyal, or
are you suggesting that Linux is incapable of being used in a recording
studio, because of a lack of drivers?

If it's the former, then I think you've grossly miscalculated Jono
Bacon's loyalties. If it's the latter, then you're just agreeing with
his misguided opinions.

By all means berate Jono Bacon for his attitude, which I also personally
disagree with, much like I disagree with the attitude of other Open
Saucers, such as Microsoft MVP Miguel de Icaza. Just don't spread their
propaganda in the process.

Rathbone

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Nov 14, 2010, 12:42:26 PM11/14/10
to

Same here. That's why I haven't bought a "Brother" or "Lexmark"
printer. Incidentally, both of those companies happen to produce crappy
printers.

> The biggest problem Linux has is with personal portable devices.
> Sure many, if not most allow mounting the device as storage and
> using it that way. The problem is most people don't want to do
> that. They want to sync with their email programs, update the
> device via the computer and so forth. With Linux they loose a lot
> of these functions.

Can't comment on that in the music department.

In the email, etc. department, I really think that the "sync" feature is
a dead horse. I have an Android phone and I use Google Calendar and
Contacts, and my own personal IMAP server, so everything always keeps
synched ::gasp:: over the Internet.

This old-school plug-the-Palm-Pilot-into-the-serial-port model will not
be around much longer. Mark my word.

Glenn Hall

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 1:11:44 PM11/14/10
to
On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 17:42:26 +0000 (UTC), Rathbone wrote:


> Same here. That's why I haven't bought a "Brother" or "Lexmark"
> printer. Incidentally, both of those companies happen to produce crappy
> printers.

Never had a Brother printer but I will never buy Lexmark again.
Had an internal cable slip out of the socket and all I had to do
was push it back in. Sounds easy except that the printer is dam
near impossible to take apart because you have to press on like 10
tabs all at the same time in order to pull the cover off! No
screws just tabs. It was obvious that the printer was never
designed to be taken apart and this wasn't a super cheap one
either. I finally was able to get into it and repair it.
Never again will I buy Lexmark. The odd thing about them is that
their high end, network, office printers seem to have good Linux
support.


>> The biggest problem Linux has is with personal portable devices.
>> Sure many, if not most allow mounting the device as storage and
>> using it that way. The problem is most people don't want to do
>> that. They want to sync with their email programs, update the
>> device via the computer and so forth. With Linux they loose a lot
>> of these functions.
>
> Can't comment on that in the music department.
>
> In the email, etc. department, I really think that the "sync" feature is
> a dead horse. I have an Android phone and I use Google Calendar and
> Contacts, and my own personal IMAP server, so everything always keeps
> synched ::gasp:: over the Internet.

Nice, but not something Jane is going to want to set up except for
Google and syncing with the big computer in the sky.



> This old-school plug-the-Palm-Pilot-into-the-serial-port model will not
> be around much longer. Mark my word.

Probably not. Progress marches on.

Jono Bacon

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 1:26:02 PM11/14/10
to
Hi all,

Rather surprised that so many people care about my studio, but hey ho.
Let me clear up some things:

* I do use Windows 7 in my studio, but this is simply because FLOSS
solutions currently don't meet my needs: hardware support for my
control surface and amp, VST/VSTi plugins and instruments that I need
that I have not found suitable free alternatives for, and support for
MIDI drum triggering and mapping. Sure, I could try and use
alternative hardware, but I could not find any hardware that met my
needs that had the features I needed, and I still didn't have a
solution to the software elements. When I built my studio almost a
year ago, I did take a look at Ardour first to see if it would be a
good solution, and while work is going into supporting the kind of
needs I have, it is not there yet. As such, I had two options: (1)
either use Windows/Mac to get up and running until a suitable FLOSS
solution is ready, or (2) refuse to use Windows/Mac and put my music
on hold. Being frank, I am not putting my music on hold. I love
recording music, and I believe it is important for another freedom-
orientated project which is Severed Fifth, in delivering some solid
free culture content to help change how the music industry works. So,
in a nutshell, I use Windows 7 because I don't have any other option
today if I want to make music given my needs specified above. This
doesn't mean I advocate it, I would never encourage others to use
Windows 7; a good example of this was me saying in my blog entry that
I think my Ubuntu desktop is better than Windows 7.

* Canonical has *nothing* to do with my studio. It is in my home, and
it is my hobby. Canonical never paid for or requested I built it, and
no one is making me use Windows 7 other than myself. The only person
who has control over my studio other than me, is my wife, because she
is the boss. :-)

* I also don't think mentioning Windows 7 is a risk to Free Software
or Ubuntu - I trust that readers of my blog can make their own
decisions, and are not going to use Windows 7 just because I mention
it. Sure I am the Ubuntu Community Manager, and I run Ubuntu on 90% of
my computers, but my studio is an edge case, and I don't believe my
affiliation with Ubuntu is a reason for me to hide when Ubuntu doesn't
work and I choose another solution.

I think we need to have more balance in these discussions - we are
never going to succeed if we go around berating people for their
software choices - let's instead focus the discussion on education and
encouragement to use Free Software. I am sure that there are areas in
which Linux audio tools have progressed in the last year, and I would
love to learn more and if things are ready, I would be the first to
move.

Thanks,

Jono

bbgruff

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 1:56:38 PM11/14/10
to
On Sunday 14 November 2010 18:26 Jono Bacon wrote:

> I think we need to have more balance in these discussions - we are
> never going to succeed if we go around berating people for their
> software choices - let's instead focus the discussion on education and
> encouragement to use Free Software. I am sure that there are areas in
> which Linux audio tools have progressed in the last year, and I would
> love to learn more and if things are ready, I would be the first to
> move.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jono

By the heck - thanks for taking the time to post :-)

Personally, I don't see what all the fuss is about.
For instance, if that nice Mr. Ballmer or his family choose to use a Linux-
powered router, or a Sony or Samsung TV, or an Android phone, or avail
themselves of Google searches, or make purchases via Amazon, would that be
so terrible?

You get on with what you do best mate - and leave the clowns here to us ;-)
- and thanks again.

An Old Friend

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 2:35:48 PM11/14/10
to
On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 17:42:26 +0000, Rathbone chinwagged:

> On 2010-11-14, Glenn Hall wrote:

>> I just make certain the hardware I purchase is fully supported by
>> Linux. It's actually not that difficult to avoid poorly supported
>> hardware if one does the research prior to the purchase. I would be
>> researching the device for Windows as well, not support but how well it
>> functions compared to others.
>
> Same here. That's why I haven't bought a "Brother" or "Lexmark"
> printer. Incidentally, both of those companies happen to produce crappy
> printers.

I don't ever recall having a problem with my Brother laser printer,
either on the Mac OS or Ubuntu. It produces excellent quality engraved
music. I wouldn't know about Brother's inkjet printers, but I can
certainly vouch for their laser printers.

Snit

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 2:43:27 PM11/14/10
to
An Old Friend stated in post 4ce03a14$1...@news.x-privat.org on 11/14/10 12:35
PM:

Linux drivers can make excellent printouts without having all of the
features of the device.


--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


An Old Friend

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 3:59:28 PM11/14/10
to
On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 12:43:27 -0700, Snit chinwagged:

I'm not sure what other features I should want or need other than being
able to print publication-quality music at a minimum 600dpi resolution,
as that is the resolution I've been for my music using since 1994, when I
got my Power Macintosh 6100 and Laserwriter Select 360.

I deliberately chose the HL-2140 because it was on sale for $60, and I
figured I couldn't get a better printer for the price. I'm not sure what
features I'm losing by using Linux instead of the Mac OS. I originally
purchased it for my Mac mini, but it's transitioned very well to Ubuntu
without any issues.

What features are you aware of on the HL-2140 that I'm missing out on? I
simply don't know of any features I can't access on my printer that those
who use Windows or Mac can access.

Homer

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 3:54:26 PM11/14/10
to
Verily I say unto thee, that Jono Bacon spake thusly:

>
> * I do use Windows 7 in my studio, but this is simply because FLOSS
> solutions currently don't meet my needs: hardware support for my
> control surface and amp, VST/VSTi plugins and instruments that I need
> that I have not found suitable free alternatives for, and support for
> MIDI drum triggering and mapping. Sure, I could try and use
> alternative hardware, but I could not find any hardware that met my
> needs that had the features I needed, and I still didn't have a
> solution to the software elements. When I built my studio almost a
> year ago, I did take a look at Ardour first to see if it would be a
> good solution, and while work is going into supporting the kind of
> needs I have, it is not there yet. As such, I had two options: (1)
> either use Windows/Mac to get up and running until a suitable FLOSS
> solution is ready, or (2) refuse to use Windows/Mac and put my music
> on hold. Being frank, I am not putting my music on hold.

You're conflating "needs" with preferences. You're not using Windows
because you /have/ to, you're doing so because you /want/ to. You're
choosing paradigms that require Windows solutions, then presenting the
false dichotomy that your only other alternative is to stop producing
music, when in fact you could modify your methods, and hardware if
necessary, to match available GNU/Linux solutions.

That is in fact what /everyone else/ does, when they switch from Windows
to GNU/Linux, WRT their ways of working with music and every kind of
software, including the operating system itself. Hence the meme that
"Linux is not Windows". Moreover, it isn't meant to be Windows, and IMO
should never become Windows, for all the usual reasons that motivate
people to switch from Windows to GNU/Linux in the first place.

You are of course free to /choose/ any method you want, but please don't
pretend this is anything other than your /choice/.

People do in fact use GNU/Linux all the time for music production, which
is precisely why distros like Ubuntu Studio exist.

I think the point of this thread is simply to point out the incredible
irony of the Ubuntu Community Manager preferring a Windows DAW solution
over Ubuntu's own. Whether or not you intend people to draw the
conclusion that you're advocating Windows, or associate your actions
with the Ubuntu project, that is nonetheless what they're bound to do.

> I think we need to have more balance in these discussions

Until the source of the imbalance has been removed, I fail to see how
any discussion on the matter can possibly be balanced. Microsoft's
monopoly, and the criminal business methods they use to protect that
monopoly, have produced an imbalanced market, and worse - have tainted
GNU/Linux with a stigma that causes people to reject it without even
trying. As the Ubuntu Community Manager, I'd hoped you of all people
would have made more effort to help correct that imbalance.

--
K. | [ubuntu]
http://slated.org |
Fedora 8 (Werewolf) on sky | 1. Ancient African word meaning

kernel 2.6.31.5, up 31 days | 'I can't configure Debian'

JEDIDIAH

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 4:03:46 PM11/14/10
to
On 2010-11-14, Hadron <hadro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Chris Ahlstrom <ahls...@xzoozy.com> writes:
>
>> Michael Ngai pulled this Usenet face plant:
>>
>>> Chris Ahlstrom <ahls...@xzoozy.com> wrote in
>>> news:ibnbu8$asg$1...@news.eternal-september.org:
>>>
>>>>> http://www.jonobacon.org/2010/11/10/reasons-why-i-love-my-desktop/
>>>>
>>>> So he's uses the more popular Windows tool for one of his tasks?
>>>> More power to him. He probably has used those tools for a long time,
>>>> and wants to stick with them. That's choice.
>>>
>>> The problem is not what he uses but who he is and what kind of a message he
>>> is sending to the Linux and Windows community. This is a perfect example of
>>> setting himself up to be attacked.
>>>
>>> Do you know who Jono is?
>>
>> Nope.
>>
>>> It would be like Ballmer admitting his family uses Macs for some of their
>>> work. Maybe not quite at that level, but Jono is very well known as a Linux
>>> evangelist.
>>>
>>> I suspect he uses Windows in his studio because of hardware support issues
>>> with Linux not because he wants to stick with it.
>>
>> Who knows? He doesn't say.
>>
>> By the way, Linux doesn't have hardware-support issues, when you get right
>> down to it -- Linux has vendor-support issues. It's not Linux's fault (or
>> responsibility) that a vendor provides support only for the dominant
>> platform.

Similarly, Microsoft can't take credit for the drivers that 3rd parties
do write. If Hauppauge creates a driver for some bit of kit, Microsoft doesn't
get to take credit for that.

OTOH, they can drop the ball by not fully supporting that bit of hardware
in their own software. This is where things get tricky. You can have a device
that has working Windows drivers but is effectively useless because the
necessary application level support is not there.

This is like how you can't play a BluRay on a Mac despite the level of
support for the drive itself. Plugging a BD player into a Mac doesn't mean
it can magically play BluRay disks.

Even with monopolyware you can't assume that everything has been sorted
out.

>
> Must you be such a moron all the time?
>
> It's termed Linux support issues. Linux doesnt support that HW then its
> a Linux issues as well as a source of complaint to the HW mfr.


--
...as if the ability to run Cubase ever made or broke a platform.
|||
/ | \

Snit

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 4:14:22 PM11/14/10
to
An Old Friend stated in post 4ce0...@news.x-privat.org on 11/14/10 1:59 PM:

> On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 12:43:27 -0700, Snit chinwagged:
>
>> An Old Friend stated in post 4ce03a14$1...@news.x-privat.org on 11/14/10
>> 12:35 PM:
>>
>>> On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 17:42:26 +0000, Rathbone chinwagged:
>>>
>>>> On 2010-11-14, Glenn Hall wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I just make certain the hardware I purchase is fully supported by
>>>>> Linux. It's actually not that difficult to avoid poorly supported
>>>>> hardware if one does the research prior to the purchase. I would be
>>>>> researching the device for Windows as well, not support but how well
>>>>> it functions compared to others.
>>>>
>>>> Same here. That's why I haven't bought a "Brother" or "Lexmark"
>>>> printer. Incidentally, both of those companies happen to produce
>>>> crappy printers.
>>>
>>> I don't ever recall having a problem with my Brother laser printer,
>>> either on the Mac OS or Ubuntu. It produces excellent quality engraved
>>> music. I wouldn't know about Brother's inkjet printers, but I can
>>> certainly vouch for their laser printers.
>>
>> Linux drivers can make excellent printouts without having all of the
>> features of the device.
>
> I'm not sure what other features I should want or need other than being
> able to print publication-quality music at a minimum 600dpi resolution,
> as that is the resolution I've been for my music using since 1994, when I
> got my Power Macintosh 6100 and Laserwriter Select 360.

Double sided, ink control, color matching, x-up layout, borders, paper
types, page order, page scaling, cover pages, billing info, priority,
borderless printing, color options, ink volume, image adjustments, quiet
mode, drying time, supply levels... on and on. Some of these can be handled
by the OS... though some might be handled in multiple places (such as color
correction).

And if you get to an all-in-one device the options get much larger.

> I deliberately chose the HL-2140 because it was on sale for $60, and I
> figured I couldn't get a better printer for the price. I'm not sure what
> features I'm losing by using Linux instead of the Mac OS. I originally
> purchased it for my Mac mini, but it's transitioned very well to Ubuntu
> without any issues.

Most people likely do not use many of the features.

> What features are you aware of on the HL-2140 that I'm missing out on? I
> simply don't know of any features I can't access on my printer that those
> who use Windows or Mac can access.

I do not know the HL-2140. What you can do, though, is install it on a
Windows machine and look at the options. Heck, I do not have a that
printer, but I can install the driver to check:

<http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/BrotherHL2140.png>

All sorts of options and tools come with the printer on Windows. Anything
even close to that on Linux?

--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


Snit

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 4:20:07 PM11/14/10
to
Homer stated in post 2tu5r7-...@sky.matrix on 11/14/10 1:54 PM:

> Verily I say unto thee, that Jono Bacon spake thusly:
>>
>> * I do use Windows 7 in my studio, but this is simply because FLOSS
>> solutions currently don't meet my needs: hardware support for my
>> control surface and amp, VST/VSTi plugins and instruments that I need
>> that I have not found suitable free alternatives for, and support for
>> MIDI drum triggering and mapping. Sure, I could try and use
>> alternative hardware, but I could not find any hardware that met my
>> needs that had the features I needed, and I still didn't have a
>> solution to the software elements. When I built my studio almost a
>> year ago, I did take a look at Ardour first to see if it would be a
>> good solution, and while work is going into supporting the kind of
>> needs I have, it is not there yet. As such, I had two options: (1)
>> either use Windows/Mac to get up and running until a suitable FLOSS
>> solution is ready, or (2) refuse to use Windows/Mac and put my music
>> on hold. Being frank, I am not putting my music on hold.
>
> You're conflating "needs" with preferences. You're not using Windows
> because you /have/ to, you're doing so because you /want/ to. You're
> choosing paradigms that require Windows solutions, then presenting the
> false dichotomy that your only other alternative is to stop producing
> music, when in fact you could modify your methods, and hardware if
> necessary, to match available GNU/Linux solutions.

So what are those matches? I do not know music software well, but I can say
that with Photoshop, Dreamweaver, MS Office, iLife, iWork, Tofu,
DreamCatcher and other tools that I use I have found nothing that comes
close on Linux.

> That is in fact what /everyone else/ does, when they switch from Windows
> to GNU/Linux, WRT their ways of working with music and every kind of
> software, including the operating system itself. Hence the meme that
> "Linux is not Windows". Moreover, it isn't meant to be Windows, and IMO
> should never become Windows, for all the usual reasons that motivate
> people to switch from Windows to GNU/Linux in the first place.

In my case I am not looking for it to be OS X (or Windows) - I am looking
for tools that meet my needs the best. Sometimes those tools are on one
OS... sometimes another. Rarely is that OS Linux... there just are not that
many tools it has that other OSs lack *that I have found*. TomB has gone
into some detail about how the options on Linux benefit his workflow - and
at least for him I have no doubt that is true. But, in general, I do not
see much that Linux offers that other OSs do not - *other* than cost.

> You are of course free to /choose/ any method you want, but please don't
> pretend this is anything other than your /choice/.
>
> People do in fact use GNU/Linux all the time for music production, which
> is precisely why distros like Ubuntu Studio exist.
>
> I think the point of this thread is simply to point out the incredible
> irony of the Ubuntu Community Manager preferring a Windows DAW solution
> over Ubuntu's own. Whether or not you intend people to draw the
> conclusion that you're advocating Windows, or associate your actions
> with the Ubuntu project, that is nonetheless what they're bound to do.

Why do you think he went with Windows?



>> I think we need to have more balance in these discussions
>
> Until the source of the imbalance has been removed, I fail to see how
> any discussion on the matter can possibly be balanced. Microsoft's
> monopoly, and the criminal business methods they use to protect that
> monopoly, have produced an imbalanced market, and worse - have tainted
> GNU/Linux with a stigma that causes people to reject it without even
> trying. As the Ubuntu Community Manager, I'd hoped you of all people
> would have made more effort to help correct that imbalance.

I think you assume people who try Linux will find it to serve their needs as
well as do other options. In general that has not been my experience
(though there are cases where Linux has served me best... though mostly
because of the cost).

--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


Hadron

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 4:22:40 PM11/14/10
to
Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> writes:


And there we see the problem with idiots like him, Porter et al. They
are NOT aware of the full features of the devices they use and therefore
don't know any better.

Snit

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 4:53:14 PM11/14/10
to
Hadron stated in post ibpjv0$f61$5...@news.eternal-september.org on 11/14/10
2:22 PM:

An Old Friend asked a respectful question and I responded. I have no
problem with his question. He did *not* deny that such things exist.

But, yes, I suspect most people have no idea about most of the features in
the devices - but as with Linux, isn't it nice to have *choice*. With
Windows you tend to have more choice with your devices. But, of course,
this will be deemed unimportant.


--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


Peter Köhlmann

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 5:01:44 PM11/14/10
to
An Old Friend wrote:

< snip >

> What features are you aware of on the HL-2140 that I'm missing out on? I
> simply don't know of any features I can't access on my printer that those
> who use Windows or Mac can access.

I currently use a HP OfficeJet Pro L 7590, connected via network.

The Linux drivers suppoprts *everything* the windows driver does, including
double sided printing, scanning, fax.
Ink levels are reported, as is *every* other aspect the windows drivers do.
The print quality is exactly the same.
Scanning is a *lot* faster than under windows, I have the first image already
scanned on linux when the windows scan software still is starting up.

So, what am I missing under linux? Except the extreme bloatware of the windows
drivers? It takes a whopping 600 MBytes to install that windows crap. And it
takes nearly 20 minutes to do so
--
"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to
build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to
produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning."
~ Rick Cook

Snit

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 5:13:33 PM11/14/10
to
Peter Köhlmann stated in post ibpm89$2b4$02$1...@news.t-online.com on 11/14/10
3:01 PM:

> An Old Friend wrote:
>
> < snip >
>
>> What features are you aware of on the HL-2140 that I'm missing out on? I
>> simply don't know of any features I can't access on my printer that those
>> who use Windows or Mac can access.
>
> I currently use a HP OfficeJet Pro L 7590, connected via network.
>
> The Linux drivers suppoprts *everything* the windows driver does, including
> double sided printing, scanning, fax.
> Ink levels are reported, as is *every* other aspect the windows drivers do.
> The print quality is exactly the same.
> Scanning is a *lot* faster than under windows, I have the first image already
> scanned on linux when the windows scan software still is starting up.
>
> So, what am I missing under linux? Except the extreme bloatware of the windows
> drivers? It takes a whopping 600 MBytes to install that windows crap. And it
> takes nearly 20 minutes to do so

HP makes Linux driver.


--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


An Old Friend

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 5:17:36 PM11/14/10
to
On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 14:14:22 -0700, Snit chinwagged:

Not available on the HL-2140.

> ink control,

There's a toner save function on the HL-2140. I can access it in Ubuntu.

> color matching,

Not applicable on a monochrome laser printer.

> x-up layout,

I have that option in Ubuntu.

> borders

That doesn't appear to be available. I remember it being useful when
printing x-up documents.

> paper types,

Available in Ubuntu.

> page order,

Available in Ubuntu.

> page scaling,

Available in Ubuntu.

> cover pages,

Available in Ubuntu.

> billing info,

Available in Ubuntu.

> priority,

Available in Ubuntu.

> borderless printing,

Unavailable on the HL-2140.

> color options,

Unavailable on the monochrome HL-2140.

>ink volume,

I use toner, not ink, but I get a message "toner levels are not reported
for this printer." They weren't reported on the Mac, either. Perhaps
Windows reports an estimate. When I had a Lexmark inkjet for my Mac, I
remember it always underreporting the amount of ink, so I never really
paid attention to any ink/toner level reports.

> image adjustments,

A few I see immediately are brightness, saturation and gamma. Given that
this is a monochrome laser printer, I don't expect to find Photoshop-
level adjustments at the print-driver level.

> quiet mode,

Not available on the HL-2140.

> drying time,

Not available on the HL-2140 laser printer.

> supply levels...

Already mentioned, unless you're referring to paper level.

> on and on. Some of these can be
> handled by the OS... though some might be handled in multiple places
> (such as color correction).

So far, the things you've mentioned with extremely few exceptions (such
as borders) are either inapplicable to my HL-2140 laser printer or
available for it when using Ubuntu.

> And if you get to an all-in-one device the options get much larger.

If I ever get an all-in-one device, I'll keep that in mind.

>> I deliberately chose the HL-2140 because it was on sale for $60, and I
>> figured I couldn't get a better printer for the price. I'm not sure
>> what features I'm losing by using Linux instead of the Mac OS. I
>> originally purchased it for my Mac mini, but it's transitioned very
>> well to Ubuntu without any issues.
>
> Most people likely do not use many of the features.
>
>> What features are you aware of on the HL-2140 that I'm missing out on?
>> I simply don't know of any features I can't access on my printer that
>> those who use Windows or Mac can access.
>
> I do not know the HL-2140. What you can do, though, is install it on a
> Windows machine and look at the options. Heck, I do not have a that
> printer, but I can install the driver to check:
>
> <http://tmp.gallopinginsanity.com/BrotherHL2140.png>
>
> All sorts of options and tools come with the printer on Windows.
> Anything even close to that on Linux?

I don't have a Windows computer handy to install this on, so I'll comment
on what you've provided.

Seeing as the HL-2140 is a monochrome laser printer, there are no color
options, so even if Windows says there are, there aren't, unless
Microsoft has figured out a way to make monochrome laser printers print
in color.

6 of the icons go to web pages to purchase supplies or view online
documents, or go to various online sites that I have full access to.

Seems like I'm not lacking anything on my Brother HL-2140 except for
borders and toner level (but I didn't have toner level on the Mac OS,
either, so it might not be supported on this printer). That's not such a
dealbreaker for me that I'd be willing to spend hundreds of dollars for a
computer with Windows or Mac OS just to print borders on x-up printouts
or get the computer's estimate for how much toner I have left.

Additionally, when I search further into my printer settings I see
orientation selections as portrait, landscape (90 degrees), reverse
portrait (180 degrees rotation) and reverse landscape (270 degree
rotation). Job priority, text options (characters per inch, margins in
points, "pretty print", and columns, starting and ending banners, error
policy, operation policy, 8 choices for page order in x-up printing,
among other settings.

Snit

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 5:26:50 PM11/14/10
to
An Old Friend stated in post 4ce06000$1...@news.x-privat.org on 11/14/10 3:17
PM:

...


>>> I'm not sure what other features I should want or need other than being
>>> able to print publication-quality music at a minimum 600dpi resolution,
>>> as that is the resolution I've been for my music using since 1994, when
>>> I got my Power Macintosh 6100 and Laserwriter Select 360.
>>
>> Double sided,
>
> Not available on the HL-2140.
>
>> ink control,
>
> There's a toner save function on the HL-2140. I can access it in Ubuntu.
>
>> color matching,
>
> Not applicable on a monochrome laser printer.
>
>> x-up layout,
>
> I have that option in Ubuntu.
>
>> borders
>
> That doesn't appear to be available. I remember it being useful when
> printing x-up documents.

Yes. To be fair, at least in OS X, this is an OS-level feature and is not
specific to printers.

>> paper types,
>
> Available in Ubuntu.
>
>> page order,
>
> Available in Ubuntu.
>
>> page scaling,
>
> Available in Ubuntu.
>
>> cover pages,
>
> Available in Ubuntu.
>
>> billing info,
>
> Available in Ubuntu.
>
>> priority,
>
> Available in Ubuntu.
>
>> borderless printing,
>
> Unavailable on the HL-2140.
>
>> color options,
>
> Unavailable on the monochrome HL-2140.
>
>> ink volume,
>
> I use toner, not ink, but I get a message "toner levels are not reported
> for this printer." They weren't reported on the Mac, either. Perhaps
> Windows reports an estimate. When I had a Lexmark inkjet for my Mac, I
> remember it always underreporting the amount of ink, so I never really
> paid attention to any ink/toner level reports.

The reports come from the toner cartridges, I believe. They might not be
accurate, but at least they exist on Windows (presumably).



>> image adjustments,
>
> A few I see immediately are brightness, saturation and gamma. Given that
> this is a monochrome laser printer, I don't expect to find Photoshop-
> level adjustments at the print-driver level.

I do not know the options on other OSs, but might have levels and the like.

Very clever driver. :)

> 6 of the icons go to web pages to purchase supplies or view online
> documents, or go to various online sites that I have full access to.

But not direct links from the software.

> Seems like I'm not lacking anything on my Brother HL-2140 except for
> borders and toner level (but I didn't have toner level on the Mac OS,
> either, so it might not be supported on this printer). That's not such a
> dealbreaker for me that I'd be willing to spend hundreds of dollars for a
> computer with Windows or Mac OS just to print borders on x-up printouts
> or get the computer's estimate for how much toner I have left.

As I have said: the low cost is a benefit of Windows. And I do not know
this printer specifically nor the options on any OS.

> Additionally, when I search further into my printer settings I see
> orientation selections as portrait, landscape (90 degrees), reverse
> portrait (180 degrees rotation) and reverse landscape (270 degree
> rotation). Job priority, text options (characters per inch, margins in
> points, "pretty print", and columns, starting and ending banners, error
> policy, operation policy, 8 choices for page order in x-up printing,
> among other settings.

Who is the driver made by?

--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


JEDIDIAH

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 6:03:29 PM11/14/10
to
On 2010-11-14, Homer <use...@slated.org> wrote:
> Verily I say unto thee, that Jono Bacon spake thusly:
>>
>> * I do use Windows 7 in my studio, but this is simply because FLOSS
>> solutions currently don't meet my needs: hardware support for my
>> control surface and amp, VST/VSTi plugins and instruments that I need
>> that I have not found suitable free alternatives for, and support for
>> MIDI drum triggering and mapping. Sure, I could try and use
>> alternative hardware, but I could not find any hardware that met my
>> needs that had the features I needed, and I still didn't have a
>> solution to the software elements. When I built my studio almost a
>> year ago, I did take a look at Ardour first to see if it would be a
>> good solution, and while work is going into supporting the kind of
>> needs I have, it is not there yet. As such, I had two options: (1)
>> either use Windows/Mac to get up and running until a suitable FLOSS
>> solution is ready, or (2) refuse to use Windows/Mac and put my music
>> on hold. Being frank, I am not putting my music on hold.
>
> You're conflating "needs" with preferences. You're not using Windows
> because you /have/ to, you're doing so because you /want/ to. You're
> choosing paradigms that require Windows solutions, then presenting the

No. I think he's legitimately defining the solution and the software
and hardware support available on Linux is not up to the task.

Not being a music pro, I would not presume to contradict him.

[deletia]

An Old Friend

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 6:33:10 PM11/14/10
to
On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 15:26:50 -0700, Snit chinwagged:

No, not directly from the printer window. I personally see links like
that as annoying advertising rather than something useful. I don't
especially need a link to Brother's own online store where I can buy
toner at a higher price than I can get elsewhere. If that's considered a
desirable feature, then I'll pass, thank you very much. :)

>> Seems like I'm not lacking anything on my Brother HL-2140 except for
>> borders and toner level (but I didn't have toner level on the Mac OS,
>> either, so it might not be supported on this printer). That's not such
>> a dealbreaker for me that I'd be willing to spend hundreds of dollars
>> for a computer with Windows or Mac OS just to print borders on x-up
>> printouts or get the computer's estimate for how much toner I have
>> left.
>
> As I have said: the low cost is a benefit of Windows. And I do not know
> this printer specifically nor the options on any OS.
>
>> Additionally, when I search further into my printer settings I see
>> orientation selections as portrait, landscape (90 degrees), reverse
>> portrait (180 degrees rotation) and reverse landscape (270 degree
>> rotation). Job priority, text options (characters per inch, margins in
>> points, "pretty print", and columns, starting and ending banners, error
>> policy, operation policy, 8 choices for page order in x-up printing,
>> among other settings.
>
> Who is the driver made by?

Well, I have two printer driver choices ... the features I've addressed
here come from the foomatic driver from the Linux Foundation, which is
the driver included in Ubuntu 10.10. Someone in a Mint forum suggested
that Brother's own Linux printer driver did a better job of printing
grayscale than the foomatic driver. I've just downloaded Brother's driver
and will see what the difference is, if any, in my particular printing
needs. I do use grayscale on occasion for basic artwork to decorate my
educational piano pieces.

Homer

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 6:55:33 PM11/14/10
to
Verily I say unto thee, that JEDIDIAH spake thusly:

> On 2010-11-14, Homer <use...@slated.org> wrote:
>> Verily I say unto thee, that Jono Bacon spake thusly:
>>>
>>> * I do use Windows 7 in my studio, but this is simply because FLOSS
>>> solutions currently don't meet my needs
[...]

>> You're conflating "needs" with preferences. You're not using Windows
>> because you /have/ to, you're doing so because you /want/ to. You're
>> choosing paradigms that require Windows solutions
>
> No. I think he's legitimately defining the solution and the software
> and hardware support available on Linux is not up to the task.

If that's true then why bother producing Ubuntu Studio?

Rathbone

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 7:02:09 PM11/14/10
to
On 2010-11-14, Homer wrote:
> Verily I say unto thee, that JEDIDIAH spake thusly:
>> On 2010-11-14, Homer <use...@slated.org> wrote:
>>> Verily I say unto thee, that Jono Bacon spake thusly:
>>>>
>>>> * I do use Windows 7 in my studio, but this is simply because FLOSS
>>>> solutions currently don't meet my needs
> [...]
>>> You're conflating "needs" with preferences. You're not using Windows
>>> because you /have/ to, you're doing so because you /want/ to. You're
>>> choosing paradigms that require Windows solutions
>>
>> No. I think he's legitimately defining the solution and the software
>> and hardware support available on Linux is not up to the task.
>
> If that's true then why bother producing Ubuntu Studio?

Because that gap hasn't been bridged yet, and he'd like to try?

I don't see any contradiction in trying to build a bridge and not
crossing it while it's incomplete.

Bob Hauck

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 6:26:49 PM11/14/10
to
On 14 Nov 2010 21:59:28 +0100, An Old Friend <an....@friend.com.invalid>
wrote:

> I deliberately chose the HL-2140 because it was on sale for $60, and I
> figured I couldn't get a better printer for the price.

Several years ago (6 or 8 years I think), I had enough of dried-up ink
and clogged nozzles on the ink jet I had at the time. I tossed it in
the trash, did some quick research on the Web and marched on down to
Staples where I bought a Brother HL-1440.

I have been quite pleased with it under Linux. As far as I can tell it
has the same functionality under Linux as under Windows. It got my wife
through college and my kids through high school and I don't think it has
ever had so much as a paper jam.

Plus it is really cheap to run compared to almost any ink-jet.


--
-| Bob Hauck (Brother Nail Gun of The Short Path)
-| http://www.haucks.org/

Chris Ahlstrom

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 7:14:53 PM11/14/10
to
Rathbone pulled this Usenet face plant:

> On 2010-11-14, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

>> Michael Ngai pulled this Usenet face plant:

> [snip]


>>> I suspect he uses Windows in his studio because of hardware support issues
>>> with Linux not because he wants to stick with it.
>>
>> Who knows? He doesn't say.
>>
>> By the way, Linux doesn't have hardware-support issues, when you get right
>> down to it -- Linux has vendor-support issues. It's not Linux's fault (or
>> responsibility) that a vendor provides support only for the dominant
>> platform.
>

> Maybe, but that distinction is academic at best.
>
> At the end of the day, all that matters is: Can Camera/Printer X work
> on Operating System Y (with or without some coaxing).
>
> People aren't going to say "Oh, my camera doesn't work, but it's not
> Linux's *fault* so it's OK."

Who's claiming that? I'm saying it is *bad*. But not the fault
of Linux.

> As an aside, people---including me---often praise Linux by saying that
> more peripherals are supported right out of the box than Windows, even
> though some aren't supported at all. I think that at the end of the
> day, it's more important to most people that they can get their hardware
> working *somehow*, even if they have to pop in a CD and hit next a few
> times and reboot a couple times.
>

>> Linux is somewhat outside the market. This is a good thing, even if
>> it sometimes delays support for certain pieces of hardware.
> [snip]
>
> I don't really agree with this. I think Linux is a good OS because it's
> a solid and secure implementation of UNIX, has good desktop software and
> excellent server software and works very well as an embedded platform.

And is Free and free. Very important.

> But I think that its hardware support for desktop systems (mainly video
> drivers and printer drivers, in my experience) could be better.

Video and printer aren't so much of an issue. It's the devices with
vendor-specific protocols that tend to have issues with Linux, because the
vendor has no interest in supporting an operating system that is not part of
its market interests.

> And yes, I *know* some of those drivers are userspace drivers and not
> "Linux" problems per se. Again, another academic distinction that we
> needn't bore ourselves with here on COLA.

That's an odd way of putting it.

--
No one can put you down without your full cooperation.

Chris Ahlstrom

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 7:18:02 PM11/14/10
to
Rathbone pulled this Usenet face plant:

> On 2010-11-14, Glenn Hall wrote:
>>
>> I just make certain the hardware I purchase is fully supported by
>> Linux. It's actually not that difficult to avoid poorly supported
>> hardware if one does the research prior to the purchase. I would
>> be researching the device for Windows as well, not support but how
>> well it functions compared to others.
>
> Same here. That's why I haven't bought a "Brother" or "Lexmark"
> printer. Incidentally, both of those companies happen to produce crappy
> printers.

I've had a Brother laser printer for a few years now. It works
well, produces good output, is well-supported by Linux, and
CUPS lets the Windows box in the house use it.

> In the email, etc. department, I really think that the "sync" feature is
> a dead horse. I have an Android phone and I use Google Calendar and
> Contacts, and my own personal IMAP server, so everything always keeps
> synched ::gasp:: over the Internet.
>
> This old-school plug-the-Palm-Pilot-into-the-serial-port model will not
> be around much longer. Mark my word.

Yeah. It's now USB and/or Bluetooth.

--
"In the face of entropy and nothingness, you kind of have to pretend it's not
there if you want to keep writing good code." -- Karl Lehenbauer

Chris Ahlstrom

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 7:20:34 PM11/14/10
to
Peter K??hlmann pulled this Usenet face plant:

> An Old Friend wrote:
>
> < snip >
>
>> What features are you aware of on the HL-2140 that I'm missing out on? I
>> simply don't know of any features I can't access on my printer that those
>> who use Windows or Mac can access.
>
> I currently use a HP OfficeJet Pro L 7590, connected via network.
>
> The Linux drivers suppoprts *everything* the windows driver does, including
> double sided printing, scanning, fax.
> Ink levels are reported, as is *every* other aspect the windows drivers do.
> The print quality is exactly the same.
> Scanning is a *lot* faster than under windows, I have the first image already
> scanned on linux when the windows scan software still is starting up.
>
> So, what am I missing under linux? Except the extreme bloatware of the windows
> drivers? It takes a whopping 600 MBytes to install that windows crap. And it
> takes nearly 20 minutes to do so

I've also had good luck with feature support in certain models of monstrous
all-in-one networked devices from Xerox, Canon (!), and Kyocera.

--
Minors in Kansas City, Missouri, are not allowed to purchase cap pistols;
they may buy shotguns freely, however.

Chris Ahlstrom

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 7:25:39 PM11/14/10
to
Snit pulled this Usenet face plant:

> Double sided, ink control, color matching, x-up layout, borders, paper
> types, page order, page scaling, cover pages, billing info, priority,
> borderless printing, color options, ink volume, image adjustments, quiet
> mode, drying time, supply levels... on and on. Some of these can be handled
> by the OS... though some might be handled in multiple places (such as color
> correction).
>
> And if you get to an all-in-one device the options get much larger.

You can get very good support for most of these features in all-in-one
devices:

Xerox Docucentre and Workcentre models
Kyocera Mita FS-C8500DN KPDL and TASKalfa 420i
Canon imageRunner C5185i

Speaking from direct experience with those.

Perfect? No. But very very usable.

--
signal(i, SIG_DFL); /* crunch, crunch, crunch */
-- Larry Wall in doarg.c from the perl source code

Rathbone

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 7:29:37 PM11/14/10
to
On 2010-11-15, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> Rathbone pulled this Usenet face plant:
>
>> On 2010-11-14, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
[snip]

>>> Linux is somewhat outside the market. This is a good thing, even if
>>> it sometimes delays support for certain pieces of hardware.
>> [snip]
>>
>> I don't really agree with this. I think Linux is a good OS because it's
>> a solid and secure implementation of UNIX, has good desktop software and
>> excellent server software and works very well as an embedded platform.
>
> And is Free and free. Very important.

Agreed, but I don't think I care as much about this aspect as some
others. It's good insofar as it's an added bonus, but shouldn't be used
to make excuses for lack of functionality (not saying that's what you're
doing).

>> But I think that its hardware support for desktop systems (mainly video
>> drivers and printer drivers, in my experience) could be better.
>
> Video and printer aren't so much of an issue. It's the devices with
> vendor-specific protocols that tend to have issues with Linux, because the
> vendor has no interest in supporting an operating system that is not part of
> its market interests.

Indeed, but I think (some) printers are a good example of that.

Obviously, if every printer supported Postscript or PCL, we'd all be
fine and dandy. But that's *not* the case, and since we don't have as
much vendor support as Windows, sometimes the OSS community has to work
a bit harder to provide support for these devices.

>> And yes, I *know* some of those drivers are userspace drivers and not
>> "Linux" problems per se. Again, another academic distinction that we
>> needn't bore ourselves with here on COLA.
>
> That's an odd way of putting it.

I was just trying to avoid opening myself up to replies like "Duh, you
should know that printer drivers are implemented in userspace, so it's
not the fault of Linux, which is a kernel!"

Rathbone

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 7:34:33 PM11/14/10
to
On 2010-11-15, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> Rathbone pulled this Usenet face plant:
>
>> On 2010-11-14, Glenn Hall wrote:
>>>
>>> I just make certain the hardware I purchase is fully supported by
>>> Linux. It's actually not that difficult to avoid poorly supported
>>> hardware if one does the research prior to the purchase. I would
>>> be researching the device for Windows as well, not support but how
>>> well it functions compared to others.
>>
>> Same here. That's why I haven't bought a "Brother" or "Lexmark"
>> printer. Incidentally, both of those companies happen to produce crappy
>> printers.
>
> I've had a Brother laser printer for a few years now. It works
> well, produces good output, is well-supported by Linux, and
> CUPS lets the Windows box in the house use it.

Fair enough.

Based on what people have been saying here on COLA, it seems that (a)
Brother support on Linux has been improving (back in like 2004 when I
was researching which printer I should buy, the forums pretty much
unanimously were advising people to stay away from Brother) and (b)
Brother's laser printers may be better supported in Linux than its
inkjet printers.

>> In the email, etc. department, I really think that the "sync" feature is
>> a dead horse. I have an Android phone and I use Google Calendar and
>> Contacts, and my own personal IMAP server, so everything always keeps
>> synched ::gasp:: over the Internet.
>>
>> This old-school plug-the-Palm-Pilot-into-the-serial-port model will not
>> be around much longer. Mark my word.
>
> Yeah. It's now USB and/or Bluetooth.

Well, yeah, but my point was that people will be moving towards the
cloud model to achieve synchronization. Time will tell whether I'll be
right or wrong about that, but that's my prediction.

Chris Ahlstrom

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 7:54:19 PM11/14/10
to
Bob Hauck pulled this Usenet face plant:

That's the one we're using on our Linux box.

--
See, these two penguins walked into a bar, which was really stupid, 'cause
the second one should have seen it.

Chris Ahlstrom

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 7:56:19 PM11/14/10
to
Rathbone pulled this Usenet face plant:

> On 2010-11-15, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>>> And yes, I *know* some of those drivers are userspace drivers and not
>>> "Linux" problems per se. Again, another academic distinction that we
>>> needn't bore ourselves with here on COLA.
>>
>> That's an odd way of putting it.
>
> I was just trying to avoid opening myself up to replies like "Duh, you
> should know that printer drivers are implemented in userspace, so it's
> not the fault of Linux, which is a kernel!"

Well, even if it were a missing kernel module, I would still term it a
vendor issue. Vendor ignorance, laziness, or an unwillingness to
squeeze that last "1%" out of the "market". :-)

--
The whole earth is in jail and we're plotting this incredible jailbreak.
-- Wavy Gravy

Snit

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 7:56:23 PM11/14/10
to
Chris Ahlstrom stated in post ibpukh$m5u$5...@news.eternal-september.org on
11/14/10 5:25 PM:

> Snit pulled this Usenet face plant:
>
>> Double sided, ink control, color matching, x-up layout, borders, paper
>> types, page order, page scaling, cover pages, billing info, priority,
>> borderless printing, color options, ink volume, image adjustments, quiet
>> mode, drying time, supply levels... on and on. Some of these can be handled
>> by the OS... though some might be handled in multiple places (such as color
>> correction).
>>
>> And if you get to an all-in-one device the options get much larger.
>
> You can get very good support for most of these features in all-in-one
> devices:
>
> Xerox Docucentre and Workcentre models
> Kyocera Mita FS-C8500DN KPDL and TASKalfa 420i
> Canon imageRunner C5185i
>
> Speaking from direct experience with those.
>
> Perfect? No. But very very usable.

Did anyone say those devices would not be usable? No. Thank you, though,
for the admission that it is not perfect.


--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


Chris Ahlstrom

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 7:57:24 PM11/14/10
to
Rathbone pulled this Usenet face plant:

> On 2010-11-15, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>> Yeah. It's now USB and/or Bluetooth.
>
> Well, yeah, but my point was that people will be moving towards the
> cloud model to achieve synchronization. Time will tell whether I'll be
> right or wrong about that, but that's my prediction.

Well, I think it is a good prediction. :-)

--
"Turn on, tune up, rock out."
-- Billy Gibbons

Snit

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 8:09:50 PM11/14/10
to
An Old Friend stated in post 4ce0...@news.x-privat.org on 11/14/10 4:33 PM:

...

>>> I don't have a Windows computer handy to install this on, so I'll
>>> comment on what you've provided.
>>>
>>> Seeing as the HL-2140 is a monochrome laser printer, there are no color
>>> options, so even if Windows says there are, there aren't, unless
>>> Microsoft has figured out a way to make monochrome laser printers print
>>> in color.
>>
>> Very clever driver. :)
>>
>>> 6 of the icons go to web pages to purchase supplies or view online
>>> documents, or go to various online sites that I have full access to.
>>
>> But not direct links from the software.
>
> No, not directly from the printer window. I personally see links like
> that as annoying advertising rather than something useful. I don't
> especially need a link to Brother's own online store where I can buy
> toner at a higher price than I can get elsewhere. If that's considered a
> desirable feature, then I'll pass, thank you very much. :)

There are still options to things *some* people might want. There is
choice... and ease of use in putting them together. I am not saying you
would want all that the software offers.

Good - and it is these subtle things that can make the difference. Some
people see both have grayscale settings and insist that means they are the
same.

--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


An Old Friend

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 8:52:19 PM11/14/10
to
On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 18:09:50 -0700, Snit chinwagged:

> An Old Friend stated in post 4ce0...@news.x-privat.org on 11/14/10 4:33
> PM:
>

>> Well, I have two printer driver choices ... the features I've addressed


>> here come from the foomatic driver from the Linux Foundation, which is
>> the driver included in Ubuntu 10.10. Someone in a Mint forum suggested
>> that Brother's own Linux printer driver did a better job of printing
>> grayscale than the foomatic driver. I've just downloaded Brother's
>> driver and will see what the difference is, if any, in my particular
>> printing needs. I do use grayscale on occasion for basic artwork to
>> decorate my educational piano pieces.
>
> Good - and it is these subtle things that can make the difference. Some
> people see both have grayscale settings and insist that means they are
> the same.

Well, there is a *very* subtle difference. With the Brother driver, it
appears that the grayscale is 5% lighter on the darker settings (past
about 70% gray or so). That improves gradients on the darker end.

For my graphics, it's a subjective call. And my music looks identical on
first glance between the two drivers; even the small staccato dots and
the contours of the slurs.

I'll probably go with the Brother driver now that it's installed, but it
is a subtle difference: subtle as in the taste of vanillin vs. pure
vanilla extract.

Glenn Hall

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 9:05:29 PM11/14/10
to
On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 19:54:19 -0500, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> Bob Hauck pulled this Usenet face plant:
>
>> On 14 Nov 2010 21:59:28 +0100, An Old Friend <an....@friend.com.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I deliberately chose the HL-2140 because it was on sale for $60, and I
>>> figured I couldn't get a better printer for the price.
>>
>> Several years ago (6 or 8 years I think), I had enough of dried-up ink
>> and clogged nozzles on the ink jet I had at the time. I tossed it in
>> the trash, did some quick research on the Web and marched on down to
>> Staples where I bought a Brother HL-1440.
>>
>> I have been quite pleased with it under Linux. As far as I can tell it
>> has the same functionality under Linux as under Windows. It got my wife
>> through college and my kids through high school and I don't think it has
>> ever had so much as a paper jam.
>>
>> Plus it is really cheap to run compared to almost any ink-jet.
>
> That's the one we're using on our Linux box.

I gave up on ink jet printers years ago because the cost of ink
was bleeding me dry. I have a Samsung and a small HP and both came
with Linux drivers even though I didn't need to use them as they
were supported by Ubuntu. The functions seem the same to me as
they are with Windows. If any functionality is missing from the
Linux side I haven't noticed it. It took me all of maybe an hour
searching the web for Linux support, or really reviews in general,
to pick printers that work fine under Linux.

JEDIDIAH

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 8:13:42 PM11/14/10
to
On 2010-11-15, Rathbone <ple...@replytolist.com> wrote:
> On 2010-11-15, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>> Rathbone pulled this Usenet face plant:
>>
>>> On 2010-11-14, Glenn Hall wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I just make certain the hardware I purchase is fully supported by
>>>> Linux. It's actually not that difficult to avoid poorly supported
>>>> hardware if one does the research prior to the purchase. I would
>>>> be researching the device for Windows as well, not support but how
>>>> well it functions compared to others.
>>>
>>> Same here. That's why I haven't bought a "Brother" or "Lexmark"
>>> printer. Incidentally, both of those companies happen to produce crappy
>>> printers.
>>
>> I've had a Brother laser printer for a few years now. It works
>> well, produces good output, is well-supported by Linux, and
>> CUPS lets the Windows box in the house use it.
>
> Fair enough.
>
> Based on what people have been saying here on COLA, it seems that (a)
> Brother support on Linux has been improving (back in like 2004 when I

I've used Brother printers longer than that without any trouble.
Infact, there are some Brother printers that have had things like
"supports MS-DOS" plastered on the some sticker on the front of the
device. That phrase is Brother Corp shorthand for "includes PCL".

[deletia]

--
Sure, I could use iTunes even under Linux. However, I have |||
better things to do with my time than deal with how iTunes doesn't / | \
want to play nicely with everyone else's data (namely mine). I'd
rather create a DVD using those Linux apps we're told don't exist.

Snit

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 9:26:56 PM11/14/10
to
An Old Friend stated in post 4ce0...@news.x-privat.org on 11/14/10 6:52 PM:

For some folks it does make a difference... both better gray scale and the
taste of vanilla vs. fake vanilla. Heck, I am picky between different
vanillas - the cheap ones are nowhere near as good as the fine ones from
Madagascar. Even then, it makes a huge difference how it is processed and
grown; as with computers, I am willing to spend more for the high quality
stuff that serves my needs and tastes (literally in this case).


--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


An Old Friend

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 9:41:18 PM11/14/10
to
On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 14:53:14 -0700, Snit chinwagged:

Thank you. And you reminded me about all the little things that can go
into making a decision for a printer. As we'll see below, I use a
pragmatic, minimalistic approach to these kinds of hardware purchases.

> But, yes, I suspect most people have no idea about most of the features
> in the devices - but as with Linux, isn't it nice to have *choice*.
> With Windows you tend to have more choice with your devices. But, of
> course, this will be deemed unimportant.

When I first got the printer, my major concern was making sure the
printer was Mac OS compatible, since I had my trusty first-generation Mac
Mini at the time. If it wasn't compatible, none of the other features on
the printer meant a hill of beans. I'm a minimalist in that sense. :)

Past that, my ground zero is what I stated above about being able to
print publication-quality music at 600x600dpi. Anything and everything
else above that is gravy. If the output isn't publication-quality, then I
don't want the printer--no matter what other desirable features it might
have. Prior to the Brother printer, I remember trying out a Lexmark inkjet
printer (that was on sale for $20 including the cartridges--it was
cheaper to buy another printer than get replacement cartridges) and I
absolutely hated it for music. I tried keeping it to get a "best of both
worlds" scenario: I'd print in color on the inkjet (without any text or
black) then print the black over that with the laser printer. The results
were so-so.

This works both ways too ... it doesn't matter how powerful the latest
and greatest Linux computer is for some--if it can't play the latest game
at 60fps on five 2560x1600 screens with 10.2 surround sound while
crunching an Excel file with complex macros while rendering a blueprint
for a 3 story mansion in AutoCAD and printing it on a wide platform
printer while talking to someone on Skype with picture in picture video
while downloading a movie from Netflix then it's useless for the person
who wants it for that specific reason. :)

I look at what my needs are, and choose the best value from the products
that fit my needs. Brother printers consistently got good reviews from
Mac users, and that helped me choose that brand over others, like Samsung
and HP.

I don't look at a numbered feature list and decide based on the number of
features ... what good is a feature if I'm not going to use it? I'm not
going to buy a Ford F-650 as my primary vehicle just because it has the
ability to tow a mobile home if I'm not going to tow a mobile home.

The fact that the printer was Linux-compatible made my switch to Ubuntu
that much easier, since I wouldn't have to give up this printer that has
been very good for me and my music.

An Old Friend

unread,
Nov 14, 2010, 9:48:24 PM11/14/10
to
On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 19:13:42 -0600, JEDIDIAH chinwagged:

> On 2010-11-15, Rathbone <ple...@replytolist.com> wrote:
>> On 2010-11-15, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>> Rathbone pulled this Usenet face plant:
>>>
>>>> On 2010-11-14, Glenn Hall wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I just make certain the hardware I purchase is fully supported by
>>>>> Linux. It's actually not that difficult to avoid poorly supported
>>>>> hardware if one does the research prior to the purchase. I would be
>>>>> researching the device for Windows as well, not support but how well
>>>>> it functions compared to others.
>>>>
>>>> Same here. That's why I haven't bought a "Brother" or "Lexmark"
>>>> printer. Incidentally, both of those companies happen to produce
>>>> crappy printers.
>>>
>>> I've had a Brother laser printer for a few years now. It works well,
>>> produces good output, is well-supported by Linux, and CUPS lets the
>>> Windows box in the house use it.
>>
>> Fair enough.
>>
>> Based on what people have been saying here on COLA, it seems that (a)
>> Brother support on Linux has been improving (back in like 2004 when I
>
> I've used Brother printers longer than that without any trouble.
> Infact, there are some Brother printers that have had things like
> "supports MS-DOS" plastered on the some sticker on the front of the
> device. That phrase is Brother Corp shorthand for "includes PCL".
>
> [deletia]

Brother printers have so many stickers on them, you'd think they were
trying to get them into NASCAR.

An Old Friend

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Nov 14, 2010, 10:01:51 PM11/14/10
to
On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 19:26:56 -0700, Snit chinwagged:

I fully understand what you are saying. My camera is not in my studio
right now, otherwise I'd take photos of the printouts so you can see the
difference for yourself.

I remember when Sunshine Vanilla Wafers were advertised as being made
with pure vanilla. Somewhere along the line they switched to vanillin,
obviously for cost reasons. (Vanillin is a byproduct of paper-making,
from what I understand.) To be honest, I didn't notice the difference,
and I can't tell you how long I'd eaten them after they changed the
recipe, but after I read the labels, then I could swear I could taste a
difference.

Snit

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Nov 14, 2010, 11:26:48 PM11/14/10
to
An Old Friend stated in post 4ce0...@news.x-privat.org on 11/14/10 7:41 PM:

...


>>>> Double sided, ink control, color matching, x-up layout, borders, paper
>>>> types, page order, page scaling, cover pages, billing info, priority,
>>>> borderless printing, color options, ink volume, image adjustments,
>>>> quiet mode, drying time, supply levels... on and on. Some of these
>>>> can be handled by the OS... though some might be handled in multiple
>>>> places (such as color correction).
>>>
>>> And there we see the problem with idiots like him, Porter et al. They
>>> are NOT aware of the full features of the devices they use and
>>> therefore don't know any better.
>>
>> An Old Friend asked a respectful question and I responded. I have no
>> problem with his question. He did *not* deny that such things exist.
>
> Thank you. And you reminded me about all the little things that can go
> into making a decision for a printer. As we'll see below, I use a
> pragmatic, minimalistic approach to these kinds of hardware purchases.

I will admit that the main considerations I use are price of the printer
and, even more, price of the ink. I also look if the color photo quality is
acceptable (all modern printers are fine for text for me... and most are
fine for photos).

>> But, yes, I suspect most people have no idea about most of the features
>> in the devices - but as with Linux, isn't it nice to have *choice*.
>> With Windows you tend to have more choice with your devices. But, of
>> course, this will be deemed unimportant.
>
> When I first got the printer, my major concern was making sure the
> printer was Mac OS compatible, since I had my trusty first-generation Mac
> Mini at the time. If it wasn't compatible, none of the other features on
> the printer meant a hill of beans. I'm a minimalist in that sense. :)

Ok, I left out that need... yes, it must work on OS X. And, really,
networking is a *huge* benefit - I do not want sharing based on a computer
being available.

> Past that, my ground zero is what I stated above about being able to
> print publication-quality music at 600x600dpi. Anything and everything
> else above that is gravy. If the output isn't publication-quality, then I
> don't want the printer--no matter what other desirable features it might
> have. Prior to the Brother printer, I remember trying out a Lexmark inkjet
> printer (that was on sale for $20 including the cartridges--it was
> cheaper to buy another printer than get replacement cartridges) and I
> absolutely hated it for music. I tried keeping it to get a "best of both
> worlds" scenario: I'd print in color on the inkjet (without any text or
> black) then print the black over that with the laser printer. The results
> were so-so.

I have considered getting a b/w laser for my main printing... and just use
the color inkjet for color photos.

> This works both ways too ... it doesn't matter how powerful the latest
> and greatest Linux computer is for some--if it can't play the latest game
> at 60fps on five 2560x1600 screens with 10.2 surround sound while
> crunching an Excel file with complex macros while rendering a blueprint
> for a 3 story mansion in AutoCAD and printing it on a wide platform
> printer while talking to someone on Skype with picture in picture video
> while downloading a movie from Netflix then it's useless for the person
> who wants it for that specific reason. :)

Exactly.

> I look at what my needs are, and choose the best value from the products
> that fit my needs. Brother printers consistently got good reviews from
> Mac users, and that helped me choose that brand over others, like Samsung
> and HP.

I am pretty happy with HP, though their drivers are so-so.

> I don't look at a numbered feature list and decide based on the number of
> features ... what good is a feature if I'm not going to use it? I'm not
> going to buy a Ford F-650 as my primary vehicle just because it has the
> ability to tow a mobile home if I'm not going to tow a mobile home.

Oh, no doubt... a driver that serves your needs, even if not as
"full-featured" as others, is just fine. Then again, sometimes you find
that other features you did not expect to use are useful. For example, I
did not think I would ever care about scheduling printouts, but I do. If my
wife and I are both printing a lot, to save from having to sort I just set
mine to print later (assuming no rush, which is generally the case). I
could also pause my printer and just set it to go when "clear".

> The fact that the printer was Linux-compatible made my switch to Ubuntu
> that much easier, since I wouldn't have to give up this printer that has
> been very good for me and my music.

Sure. How many printers are not Linux capable (this is not to say there are
many - I have not checked for some time. Support could be much better now).

--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


Snit

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Nov 14, 2010, 11:35:37 PM11/14/10
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An Old Friend stated in post 4ce0...@news.x-privat.org on 11/14/10 8:01 PM:

...


>>> Well, there is a *very* subtle difference. With the Brother driver, it
>>> appears that the grayscale is 5% lighter on the darker settings (past
>>> about 70% gray or so). That improves gradients on the darker end.
>>>
>>> For my graphics, it's a subjective call. And my music looks identical
>>> on first glance between the two drivers; even the small staccato dots
>>> and the contours of the slurs.
>>>
>>> I'll probably go with the Brother driver now that it's installed, but
>>> it is a subtle difference: subtle as in the taste of vanillin vs. pure
>>> vanilla extract.
>>
>> For some folks it does make a difference... both better gray scale and
>> the taste of vanilla vs. fake vanilla. Heck, I am picky between
>> different vanillas - the cheap ones are nowhere near as good as the fine
>> ones from Madagascar. Even then, it makes a huge difference how it is
>> processed and grown; as with computers, I am willing to spend more for
>> the high quality stuff that serves my needs and tastes (literally in
>> this case).
>
> I fully understand what you are saying. My camera is not in my studio
> right now, otherwise I'd take photos of the printouts so you can see the
> difference for yourself.

No scanner? No big deal... and if the difference is subtle it might not
show well on a picture or scan.

> I remember when Sunshine Vanilla Wafers were advertised as being made
> with pure vanilla. Somewhere along the line they switched to vanillin,
> obviously for cost reasons. (Vanillin is a byproduct of paper-making,
> from what I understand.)

I did not know that... but doing some Googling I found that at least in some
cases that is true (there are also other sources).

> To be honest, I didn't notice the difference, and I can't tell you how long
> I'd eaten them after they changed the recipe, but after I read the labels,
> then I could swear I could taste a difference.

I very much can taste the difference. So can my wife. We can tell the
difference between the good and bad brands, too. We have done taste tests
where the other did not know - we can tell. Then again, we are both very
sensitive to all sorts of tastes and smells.

--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


Jono Bacon

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Nov 15, 2010, 1:47:59 AM11/15/10
to
On Nov 14, 12:54 pm, Homer <use...@slated.org> wrote:
> You're conflating "needs" with preferences. You're not using Windows
> because you /have/ to, you're doing so because you /want/ to. You're
> choosing paradigms that require Windows solutions, then presenting the
> false dichotomy that your only other alternative is to stop producing
> music, when in fact you could modify your methods, and hardware if
> necessary, to match available GNU/Linux solutions.

That is simply not the case, and I am stunned that you can come to
this conclusion knowing nothing about the specifics around what I need
from a studio. As an example, I have electronic drums, so I need to
record MIDI and trigger drum sounds from the computer; I can't do that
in Ardour. There are VST reverbs that I really like that I have not
found alternatives for in LADSPA, there are VSTi instruments (some
synths) that I have not found alternatives for.

If you are suggesting that I could find an alternative (e.g. buy an
acoustic drum kit and mic it up, or use poorer quality reverbs, or use
a synth that doesn't match my needs), then sure I could do that, but
then the music would not be representative of what I want to do, and
frankly, I am unwilling to compromise my music. I respect the fact
that if you were in the same position, you would likely be willing to
compromise, but that is where we are different.

> That is in fact what /everyone else/ does, when they switch from Windows
> to GNU/Linux, WRT their ways of working with music and every kind of
> software, including the operating system itself. Hence the meme that
> "Linux is not Windows". Moreover, it isn't meant to be Windows, and IMO
> should never become Windows, for all the usual reasons that motivate
> people to switch from Windows to GNU/Linux in the first place.

To be clear, I don't want Windows, I would *love* a world in which I
can make the music I want to make to the quality I want to make it,
and use Linux. If I could use the tools I need on Linux, I would be
delighted - Windows is a crashy mess. The reason I am using Windows 7
is not because I want to use Windows, it is because I want the tools
that are in Cubase, and equal-quality level tools are not available on
Linux.

> You are of course free to /choose/ any method you want, but please don't
> pretend this is anything other than your /choice/.
>
> People do in fact use GNU/Linux all the time for music production, which
> is precisely why distros like Ubuntu Studio exist.

"Music production" isn't the same for everyone. Sure many people make
music, but to different quality requirements and to different styles.
For electronic music, many folks use Linux, but I don't make
electronic music, I make metal, so I need drum triggering support and
really hi quality compressors, gates, limiters, reverbs, and delays.
Some of the LADSPA effects are awesome, but most don't cut it from
what I have seen. I totally support the project and would love to see
more plugins from Windows ported, but until they are, it is not really
an option for me.

> I think the point of this thread is simply to point out the incredible
> irony of the Ubuntu Community Manager preferring a Windows DAW solution
> over Ubuntu's own. Whether or not you intend people to draw the
> conclusion that you're advocating Windows, or associate your actions
> with the Ubuntu project, that is nonetheless what they're bound to do.

I don't think it is ironic at all. Do you think all Coca-Cola
employees only drink coke? Do all Ford employees only drive Fords? Do
all HBO employees only ever watch HBO on TV? Not all all. While I am
firmly of the belief that Ubuntu is the best Linux distro out there
and serves many needs perfectly, frankly, it doesn't serve others so
well. Fortunately, the areas it is less good at are few and far
between - Ubuntu is awesome at productivity, social networking,
databases, graphics and more, but unfortunately for the needs I
specifically have for music, it is not suitable.

> > I think we need to have more balance in these discussions
>
> Until the source of the imbalance has been removed, I fail to see how
> any discussion on the matter can possibly be balanced. Microsoft's
> monopoly, and the criminal business methods they use to protect that
> monopoly, have produced an imbalanced market, and worse - have tainted
> GNU/Linux with a stigma that causes people to reject it without even
> trying. As the Ubuntu Community Manager, I'd hoped you of all people
> would have made more effort to help correct that imbalance.

The way we correct the imbalance of the industry is not by berating
those who use competing products, it is by us making our products
better - the reason I don't use Linux today is simply because it
doesn't serve my needs - we don't fix that by bollocking me for using
Linux, we fix it by making the audio engineering experience better. I
totally agree that I could do more to improve audio engineering on
Linux - while I don't have the programming skills to improve Ardour
(my last audio hacking efforts were on Jokosher), maybe I should be
providing more feedback and bug reports to Ardour developers, or
testing the software more.

Jono

Chris Ahlstrom

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Nov 15, 2010, 6:15:56 AM11/15/10
to
Glenn Hall pulled this Usenet face plant:

> On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 19:54:19 -0500, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>> Bob Hauck pulled this Usenet face plant:
>>

>>> Several years ago (6 or 8 years I think), I had enough of dried-up ink
>>> and clogged nozzles on the ink jet I had at the time. I tossed it in
>>> the trash, did some quick research on the Web and marched on down to
>>> Staples where I bought a Brother HL-1440.
>>>

>>> Plus it is really cheap to run compared to almost any ink-jet.
>>
>> That's the one we're using on our Linux box.
>
> I gave up on ink jet printers years ago because the cost of ink
> was bleeding me dry. I have a Samsung and a small HP and both came
> with Linux drivers even though I didn't need to use them as they
> were supported by Ubuntu. The functions seem the same to me as
> they are with Windows. If any functionality is missing from the
> Linux side I haven't noticed it. It took me all of maybe an hour
> searching the web for Linux support, or really reviews in general,
> to pick printers that work fine under Linux.

If you're curious, check out the ppd file in /etc/cups/ppd.
You can see the feature set that is supported by parsing through the file.

--
How do you insult a lawyer?
You might as well not even try. Consider: of all the highly
trained and educated professions, law is the only one in which the prime
lesson is that *winning* is more important than *truth*.
Once someone has sunk to that level, what worse can you say about them?

Chris Ahlstrom

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Nov 15, 2010, 6:26:14 AM11/15/10
to
An Old Friend pulled this Usenet face plant:

> On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 14:53:14 -0700, Snit chinwagged:
>> Hadron stated in post ibpjv0$f61$5...@news.eternal-september.org on
>> 11/14/10 2:22 PM:
>>

>>> And there we see the problem with idiots like him, Porter et al. They
>>> are NOT aware of the full features of the devices they use and
>>> therefore don't know any better.
>>
>> An Old Friend asked a respectful question and I responded. I have no
>> problem with his question. He did *not* deny that such things exist.
>
> Thank you. And you reminded me about all the little things that can go
> into making a decision for a printer. As we'll see below, I use a
> pragmatic, minimalistic approach to these kinds of hardware purchases.
>
>> But, yes, I suspect most people have no idea about most of the features
>> in the devices - but as with Linux, isn't it nice to have *choice*.
>> With Windows you tend to have more choice with your devices. But, of
>> course, this will be deemed unimportant.

<laughing>

These two loons think only they RTFM? Have they even taken a curious
look inside a PPD file?

> <snip>


>
> I don't look at a numbered feature list and decide based on the number of
> features ... what good is a feature if I'm not going to use it? I'm not
> going to buy a Ford F-650 as my primary vehicle just because it has the
> ability to tow a mobile home if I'm not going to tow a mobile home.
>
> The fact that the printer was Linux-compatible made my switch to Ubuntu
> that much easier, since I wouldn't have to give up this printer that has
> been very good for me and my music.

The delicious irony in all this is that UNIX led the way in typesetting...
in the 1980's.

http://docstore.mik.ua/orelly/unix/upt/ch43_12.htm

In the early '80s, one thing that made UNIX popular was that it came with
its own typesetting system. It was the first operating system that could
really let users produce high-quality documents using laser printers.
Although there are probably more fancy editors available for Macintosh
systems, high-quality printing is still a part of the UNIX experience.

In spite of vendors often ignoring the now nearly omnipresent "UNIX" market.

Hey, Snit, "Hadron", you trolling bastards, check this out.
Should keep you busy for awhile:

http://partners.adobe.com/public/developer/en/ps/5003.PPD_Spec_v4.3.pdf

--
Old timer, n.:
One who remembers when charity was a virtue and not an organization.

Ezekiel

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Nov 15, 2010, 7:51:52 AM11/15/10
to
>
>"Jono Bacon" <jono...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:7f6fbbad-7b28-400c...@n32g2000pre.googlegroups.com...

The problem with being reasonable and approaching the problem with
pragmatism is that you're responding to someone who is completely
unreasonable and will cut off his nose in order to spite his face.

For most people computers are a tool - an means to an end. And depending on
the task they will select the best tool.

For a few people (many who tend to live in c.o.l.a) computers are more like
a religion. It's all about freedom and choice as long as the choice is
always Linux.

I think that an increasing number of people are using more than just one
operating system. And why should there be anything wrong with that?

Hadron

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Nov 15, 2010, 9:08:41 AM11/15/10
to
"Ezekiel" <no_...@fake-zeke.com> writes:

>>
>>"Jono Bacon" <jono...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:7f6fbbad-7b28-400c...@n32g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
>>

>>To be clear, I don't want Windows, I would *love* a world in which I
>>can make the music I want to make to the quality I want to make it,
>>and use Linux. If I could use the tools I need on Linux, I would be
>>delighted - Windows is a crashy mess. The reason I am using Windows 7
>>is not because I want to use Windows, it is because I want the tools
>>that are in Cubase, and equal-quality level tools are not available on
>>Linux.

I pointed this out and was told I was a liar earlier. As a Debian user I
know it can be hard but luckily I dont need polished top end apps on
your list. Emacs, gimp, mysql & postgresql, apache and a few other
things form the base of my work.

>
> The problem with being reasonable and approaching the problem with
> pragmatism is that you're responding to someone who is completely
> unreasonable and will cut off his nose in order to spite his face.
>
> For most people computers are a tool - an means to an end. And depending on
> the task they will select the best tool.
>
> For a few people (many who tend to live in c.o.l.a) computers are more like
> a religion. It's all about freedom and choice as long as the choice is
> always Linux.
>
> I think that an increasing number of people are using more than just one
> operating system. And why should there be anything wrong with that?

Just to add to that : most of the people in the thread are what we call
"Freetards". They want everything for free but dont contribute anything
themselves whatsoever. They have an irrational hatred of MS. They also
wont be helping any development efforts to develop the SW you need. That
you can rely on.

Snit

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Nov 15, 2010, 9:36:47 AM11/15/10
to
Chris Ahlstrom stated in post ibr5b2$l80$3...@news.eternal-september.org on
11/15/10 4:26 AM:

Let us know when you catch up to the topic of venders supporting their own
hardware better than those who reverse-engineer drivers.

Might take you a bit.


--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


Homer

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Nov 15, 2010, 10:44:23 AM11/15/10
to
Verily I say unto thee, that Jono Bacon spake thusly:

> On Nov 14, 12:54 pm, Homer <use...@slated.org> wrote:
>>
>> You're conflating "needs" with preferences. You're not using Windows
>> because you /have/ to, you're doing so because you /want/ to. You're
>> choosing paradigms that require Windows solutions, then presenting
>> the false dichotomy that your only other alternative is to stop
>> producing music, when in fact you could modify your methods, and
>> hardware if necessary, to match available GNU/Linux solutions.
>
> That is simply not the case, and I am stunned that you can come to
> this conclusion knowing nothing about the specifics around what I need
> from a studio.

I'm drawing a conclusion about your priorities, where you choose a set
of tools and methods requiring Windows, over a different set of tools
and methods requiring GNU/Linux. Your preferences, and your right to
have those preferences, are not in question. You've made a choice, and
it's one that doesn't favour GNU/Linux, but instead favours a company
that suppresses and attacks GNU/Linux. That is your choice, but it's one
that I don't happen to agree with.

The problem here is that you're looking at this situation as though
Microsoft were a completely benign entity, and that my criticism of your
choices must therefore be an attack on your method of work, rather than
an attack on that company and those who support it. Whether you realise
it or not, you are in fact supporting Microsoft. You support them
financially when you buy a copy of Windows, then you support the Windows
platform when you buy Windows applications, thus helping to fortify the
Windows monopoly. You support Microsoft by choosing working methods that
require Windows software, then advocate this as your preferred solution,
despite others producing music (yes of all types) using GNU/Linux
solutions. You are certainly free to make that choice, of course, but
it's nonetheless your /choice/, and as such you are choosing to support
Microsoft.

IOW you've chosen to prioritise convenience over what I believe is a
higher moral obligation: defending GNU/Linux against those who attack
it. The worst offender by far is Microsoft, a company that has been
prosecuted for antitrust violations on multiple occasions, a company
that describes Linux as "a cancer", and makes unsupported allegations of
patent violations against it (then exacts extortion fees from companies
like HTC on the basis of these mysterious patents).

That isn't the sort of company /anyone/ should support, particularly not
for reasons of mere convenience.

Yes, using GNU/Linux and Free Software applications is (mostly) a rather
different paradigm to using Windows (thankfully), and subjectively may
be seen as less convenient; more problematic; and perhaps require more
effort, depending on the user and the goal, but those issues should not
stand in the way of the greater priority: defeating Microsoft's criminal
enterprise, and promoting the values of Free Software.

You've made your choices, and clearly expressed your priorities, and I
cannot endorse them. It's really /not/ "OK" to use Windows and Windows
applications, because it's really /not/ "OK" to support a company as
reprehensible as Microsoft, even if the only alternative were nothing at
all. As it stands, there are alternatives, but you've simply chosen not
to use them, because they don't fit your preferred methods.

This would be bad enough if you were Joe Nobody, but in fact you're a
fairly significant luminary in the GNU/Linux community, and as such in a
position to influence many other's opinions. If you forward the opinion
that it's "OK" to use Windows, then it's likely many people will do just
that, thus further undermining efforts to defeat Microsoft's monopoly
and promote Free Software. Moreover, it undermines /my/ efforts to
convince people otherwise, and the efforts of others like Dr. Stallman
and Dr. Schestowitz, because it marginalises our efforts as the work of
fanatics, whitewashes Microsoft's thuggish behaviour, and trivialises
the cause of Free Software.

> As an example, I have electronic drums, so I need to record MIDI and
> trigger drum sounds from the computer; I can't do that in Ardour.

http://www.hydrogen-music.org

> There are VST reverbs that I really like that I have not found
> alternatives for in LADSPA, there are VSTi instruments (some synths)
> that I have not found alternatives for.

Well that shouldn't be a problem, as Ardour already supports VST:

[quote]
Ardour now uses the Vestige header file to allow compilation with VST
support on Linux. We believe, given the reverse engineering of the
Vestige header, that there is no more need to fetch the VST SDK from
Steinberg in order to build Ardour with VST support, and it is possible
to distribute all source code associated with VST support. This means
that distributions are free to compile and release packages of Ardour
with VST support.
[/quote]

http://ardour.org/node/2555

> If you are suggesting that I could find an alternative (e.g. buy an
> acoustic drum kit and mic it up, or use poorer quality reverbs, or use
> a synth that doesn't match my needs), then sure I could do that

Or you could use the GNU/Linux tools available, and keep your existing
hardware, whilst making whatever adjustments are necessary to accomplish
your goals.

> but then the music would not be representative of what I want to do

Or perhaps more that it wouldn't be representative of the way you want
to work.

> and frankly, I am unwilling to compromise my music.

So you're a musician first, and other considerations, like supporting
GNU/Linux, are secondary. That might not be such an issue if your
secondary considerations favoured a company as disreputable as
Microsoft, especially one that causes so much damage to GNU/Linux, and
indeed the software industry in general.

> I respect the fact that if you were in the same position, you would
> likely be willing to compromise, but that is where we are different.

It seems /you/ are also willing to compromise, It's just that your
compromises and mine are diametrically opposed to one another. I
compromise your perceived technical advantages for the sake of moral
principles, whereas you compromise those same moral principles for what
you believe are technical advantages.

The question is: which is the better compromise?

>> That is in fact what /everyone else/ does, when they switch from
>> Windows to GNU/Linux, WRT their ways of working with music and every
>> kind of software, including the operating system itself. Hence the
>> meme that "Linux is not Windows". Moreover, it isn't meant to be
>> Windows, and IMO should never become Windows, for all the usual
>> reasons that motivate people to switch from Windows to GNU/Linux in
>> the first place.
>
> To be clear, I don't want Windows, I would *love* a world in which I
> can make the music I want to make to the quality I want to make it,
> and use Linux. If I could use the tools I need on Linux, I would be
> delighted - Windows is a crashy mess.

That's a technical argument, and although I agree with it, it isn't the
most significant factor, since by itself that doesn't actually threaten
GNU/Linux.

> The reason I am using Windows 7 is not because I want to use Windows,
> it is because I want the tools that are in Cubase, and equal-quality
> level tools are not available on Linux.

In your opinion. But even if that's true, it doesn't alter the fact that
you're not actually helping to solve the problem by supporting Windows.
In fact you're exacerbating it, both in terms of helping to fortify
Microsoft's monopoly, and in terms of affirming the stigma GNU/Linux's
antagonists use against it.

>> You are of course free to /choose/ any method you want, but please
>> don't pretend this is anything other than your /choice/.
>>
>> People do in fact use GNU/Linux all the time for music production,
>> which is precisely why distros like Ubuntu Studio exist.
>
> "Music production" isn't the same for everyone. Sure many people make
> music, but to different quality requirements and to different styles.
> For electronic music, many folks use Linux, but I don't make
> electronic music, I make metal

Like this guy:

[quote]
Hello All,

I bought my very first guitar a year and a half ago, and started my solo
metal project. I've published some of my songs - of course all of them
were made with the great Ardour! And all of them were home-recorded as
well - a totally amateur job. So if anyone likes some sort of black
metal, and is brave enough to listen to them, you are welcome to visit
my site:

http://inner-nocturne.pl

Cheers!
[/quote]

http://www.ardour.org/node/3906

And this band:

[quote]
I've worked with this band for a while, and done all there recording for
them (using ardour of course), its pretty heavy metal, anyway, take a
listen at myspace.com/mycityliesinruins and thanks to all the coders who
make ardour and Linux happen.
[/quote]

https://www.ardour.org/node/1165

And this one:

[quote]
Here's two songs from one of my favorite metal bands. I love working
with these evil bastards. And they love my cookin', I ain't talking
'bout Beerios...

Necromis is one of six hardcore bands that will go on a compilation
album I'm producing. I hope to put that into motion this fall.

http://myspace.com/necromis
[/quote]

http://ardour.org/node/1168

> so I need drum triggering support and really hi quality compressors,
> gates, limiters, reverbs, and delays. Some of the LADSPA effects are
> awesome, but most don't cut it from what I have seen. I totally
> support the project and would love to see more plugins from Windows
> ported, but until they are, it is not really an option for me.

It seems your wish has already been granted.

>> I think the point of this thread is simply to point out the
>> incredible irony of the Ubuntu Community Manager preferring a Windows
>> DAW solution over Ubuntu's own. Whether or not you intend people to
>> draw the conclusion that you're advocating Windows, or associate your
>> actions with the Ubuntu project, that is nonetheless what they're
>> bound to do.
>
> I don't think it is ironic at all. Do you think all Coca-Cola
> employees only drink coke? Do all Ford employees only drive Fords? Do
> all HBO employees only ever watch HBO on TV? Not all all.

The important difference is that none of those companies are being
attacked and suppressed by a vicious monopoliser like Microsoft, and
none of those companies are desperately trying to overcome that monopoly
to further the cause of Free Software, a cause that you seem to be
trivialising as something no more significant than team rivalry.

My freedom is not a game, I'm not playing, and the "rival" is a multiple
convicted monopolist with a well documented and vicious anti-Linux
agenda, that engages in some of the industry's most debase business
practices. By any standards, such a company should not be allowed to
continue trading: it should be terminated, and the criminals responsible
for its business practices should be prosecuted. That would be equally
true if GNU/Linux didn't even exist, but as it stands GNU/Linux is one
of Microsoft's primary victims, so the urgency is far greater for those
who actually care about GNU/Linux, if not also for those who care about
justice in general.

"Team rivalry" doesn't quite cut it, when I'm standing in line at the PC
store trying to buy a PC without Windows, but I'm forced to pay for it
anyway, even though I'll never use it. AFAIAC that is nothing short of
racketeering, or even more bluntly, theft. If you were mugged, would you
just shrug it off with a smile and a happy tune? No, neither would I.
I'd pursue the culprits to the ends of the earth, to make them suffer
and pay for their crimes, and ensure they could never do the same thing
to anyone else.

That's just one example, but in fact everything I do with computers is
in some way dictated by Microsoft, to my severe detriment, from hardware
support to the availability of commercial applications, and even my
freedom to develop or use software they claim is in violation of their
"IP". Microsoft are nothing but corporate gangsters, who oppress Free
Software and our freedom as tech. consumers in general. The only way to
achieve a balanced market, and attain a level playing field for Free
Software, is to shut those gangsters down. Period.

I may lack the power to accomplish that goal single-handedly, but if I
can convince enough people to support that cause, then perhaps /we/ can.

Using and supporting the Windows platform really doesn't help that
cause. It doesn't help defeat Microsoft's monopoly, and it certainly
doesn't help Free Software.

> While I am firmly of the belief that Ubuntu is the best Linux distro
> out there and serves many needs perfectly, frankly, it doesn't serve
> others so well.

Including you, apparently, which is what makes it all so ironic.

> Fortunately, the areas it is less good at are few and far between -
> Ubuntu is awesome at productivity, social networking, databases,
> graphics and more, but unfortunately for the needs I specifically have
> for music, it is not suitable.

I've said this before (elsewhere), but I'll say it again for your
benefit: if Microsoft Windows was the only software platform, then I'd
stop using computers entirely, primarily because I'm disinclined to
support corporate gangsters like Microsoft, but also because I'd simply
have no interest in using software I had no control over.

GNU/Linux may or may not be "suitable", but the question is: is it
suitable /enough/, compared to the morally unacceptable alternative?

My answer to that question is "yes". You OTOH are prepared to compromise
a /moral/ principle to gain (what you perceive to be) a /technical/
advantage, then answer "no". To me, the moral compromise is far less
acceptable than the technical limitations, if any, to the extent that
I'm prepared to forgo participation in computer related activities
/entirely/, if it means compromising my principles and helping my enemy.

>>> I think we need to have more balance in these discussions
>>
>> Until the source of the imbalance has been removed, I fail to see how
>> any discussion on the matter can possibly be balanced. Microsoft's
>> monopoly, and the criminal business methods they use to protect that
>> monopoly, have produced an imbalanced market, and worse - have
>> tainted GNU/Linux with a stigma that causes people to reject it
>> without even trying. As the Ubuntu Community Manager, I'd hoped you
>> of all people would have made more effort to help correct that
>> imbalance.
>
> The way we correct the imbalance of the industry is not by berating
> those who use competing products, it is by us making our products
> better

As I pointed out recently in another thread, making the software better,
although certainly a worthy goal, will have little impact on a
criminally supported monopoly, in which superior alternatives are
forcefully restrained by exclusion contracts and propaganda. Windows,
and most of the applications written for it, are already grossly
substandard in terms of security; stability; bloat and software freedom,
and yet the majority continue to use it, primarily because they're
nearly all forced to purchase it with every new PC they buy, but also
because of ignorance and apathy - neither of which will be overcome
purely by technical efforts. And rather than postulate vague
generalisations, let me articulate exactly how significant that apathy
really is:

http://technologysufficientlyadvanced.blogspot.com/2010/10/herding-firesheep-in-new-york-city.html

If people are quite content to carry on regardless in the face of a
serious breach of security, for which they've received several warnings,
then how exactly do you expect such people to care about GNU/Linux,
simply because it's "better"? Clearly, attacking the problem from that
angle is a lost cause. We need to attack the /source/ of the problem:
Microsoft. We need to spread the truth about their criminal activities,
and lobby to "cut off their air supply" (as Paul Maritz might say), by
mandating that Windows be unbundled from PCs at the POS, to force OEMs
and retailers to give customers the /choice/ of what operating system
they want, if any. We need to bring Microsoft to account for their
anti-competitive behaviour, and bring balance back to the market.

It's unfathomable that you could interview Roy Schestowitz but
apparently still not understand the problem we're facing. It's a
/political/ problem, not a technical one.

> the reason I don't use Linux today is simply because it doesn't serve
> my needs

That's a profoundly disturbing statement, coming from someone who is the
Ubuntu Community manager and a Linux Format columnist.

> we don't fix that by bollocking me for using Linux

I'm criticising you for not only failing to support a political agenda
to help Free Software, but actually supporting the main company that
agenda is threatened by. The specific software you use, per se, is
comparatively unimportant in that regard.

> we fix it by making the audio engineering experience better. I totally
> agree that I could do more to improve audio engineering on Linux -
> while I don't have the programming skills to improve Ardour (my last
> audio hacking efforts were on Jokosher), maybe I should be providing
> more feedback and bug reports to Ardour developers, or testing the
> software more.

I'm not asking you to do any development work. In fact I'm not asking
you to do anything at all. What I'm /hoping/ you do is stop supporting
Microsoft, by not paying for and using their software, and by not
advocating the use of that software, but instead for you to use and
advocate Free Software.

That may be a vein hope, but there it is.

--
K. | [ubuntu]
http://slated.org |
Fedora 8 (Werewolf) on sky | 1. Ancient African word meaning
kernel 2.6.31.5, up 31 days | 'I can't configure Debian'

Hadron

unread,
Nov 15, 2010, 10:54:11 AM11/15/10
to
Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> writes:

Or never. Creepy Chris rarely, if ever, reads the links and articles he
responds to. The only reason he replies is to suck up and impress the
other "advocates". You probably realised that by now.

Snit

unread,
Nov 15, 2010, 11:10:10 AM11/15/10
to
Hadron stated in post ibrl33$lqr$3...@news.eternal-september.org on 11/15/10
8:54 AM:

I know. I was being kind... and hopeful.

> Creepy Chris rarely, if ever, reads the links and articles he
> responds to. The only reason he replies is to suck up and impress the
> other "advocates". You probably realised that by now.


--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


Snit

unread,
Nov 15, 2010, 11:14:48 AM11/15/10
to
Homer stated in post n318r7-...@sky.matrix on 11/15/10 8:44 AM:

> Verily I say unto thee, that Jono Bacon spake thusly:
>> On Nov 14, 12:54 pm, Homer <use...@slated.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> You're conflating "needs" with preferences. You're not using Windows
>>> because you /have/ to, you're doing so because you /want/ to. You're
>>> choosing paradigms that require Windows solutions, then presenting
>>> the false dichotomy that your only other alternative is to stop
>>> producing music, when in fact you could modify your methods, and
>>> hardware if necessary, to match available GNU/Linux solutions.
>>
>> That is simply not the case, and I am stunned that you can come to
>> this conclusion knowing nothing about the specifics around what I need
>> from a studio.
>
> I'm drawing a conclusion about your priorities, where you choose a set
> of tools and methods requiring Windows, over a different set of tools
> and methods requiring GNU/Linux. Your preferences, and your right to
> have those preferences, are not in question. You've made a choice, and
> it's one that doesn't favour GNU/Linux, but instead favours a company
> that suppresses and attacks GNU/Linux. That is your choice, but it's one
> that I don't happen to agree with.

How can you suppress a *free* tool that anyone can get. Sure, you can
badmouth it, just as you and many in COLA badmouth Microsoft (heck, myself
included). But you cannot under-sell, say, Ubuntu unless you pay people to
use your software. You cannot prevent manufactures from offering Linux on
their machines. You cannot prevent people from installing it themselves.

> The problem here is that you're looking at this situation as though
> Microsoft were a completely benign entity, and that my criticism of your
> choices must therefore be an attack on your method of work, rather than
> an attack on that company and those who support it. Whether you realise
> it or not, you are in fact supporting Microsoft. You support them
> financially when you buy a copy of Windows, then you support the Windows
> platform when you buy Windows applications, thus helping to fortify the
> Windows monopoly. You support Microsoft by choosing working methods that
> require Windows software, then advocate this as your preferred solution,
> despite others producing music (yes of all types) using GNU/Linux
> solutions. You are certainly free to make that choice, of course, but
> it's nonetheless your /choice/, and as such you are choosing to support
> Microsoft.

If you think the Linux software is as good as what he uses then support
that. Please at least try.

> IOW you've chosen to prioritise convenience over what I believe is a
> higher moral obligation: defending GNU/Linux against those who attack
> it.

He has an obligation, in your view, to sacrifice his work to work against a
corporation. Interesting.
...


--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


Glenn Hall

unread,
Nov 15, 2010, 12:43:27 PM11/15/10
to
On Mon, 15 Nov 2010 06:15:56 -0500, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:


> If you're curious, check out the ppd file in /etc/cups/ppd.
> You can see the feature set that is supported by parsing through the file.

That's an excellent idea! I never thought of doing that. I don't
like the new linuxprinting.org website because it's a pita to
navigate to find this information. I don't buy printers that often
since I got the laser printers. When I was using ink jets it was
sometimes cheaper to replace the entire printer rather than play
the ink game.
For those purchasing a printer to use under Linux, a quick Google
brings up a ton of information and most of these devices do work
well with Linux.

TomB

unread,
Nov 17, 2010, 7:53:06 PM11/17/10
to
On 2010-11-15, the following emerged from the brain of Snit:

>
> Let us know when you catch up to the topic of venders supporting their own
> hardware better than those who reverse-engineer drivers.

Whoa, easy there. The topic was about Linux drivers (regardless of who
created them) vs. drivers on other operating systems (in casu OSX and
Windows).

Vendor supplied vs. reverse engineered drivers is a completely
different discussion.

--
Het minimumgewicht van de Belgische soldaat
zou honderdzestig kilo moeten zijn.
~ Kamagurka

Snit

unread,
Nov 17, 2010, 8:02:48 PM11/17/10
to
TomB stated in post 20101118...@usenet.drumscum.be on 11/17/10 5:53
PM:

> On 2010-11-15, the following emerged from the brain of Snit:
>>
>> Let us know when you catch up to the topic of venders supporting their own
>> hardware better than those who reverse-engineer drivers.
>
> Whoa, easy there. The topic was about Linux drivers (regardless of who
> created them) vs. drivers on other operating systems (in casu OSX and
> Windows).
>
> Vendor supplied vs. reverse engineered drivers is a completely
> different discussion.

It was about the reverse-engineered Linux drivers, such as those used on
printers when the manufacturer does not produce one. In any case, it most
certainly was *not* about what Chris Ahlstrom was talking about:

--------


The delicious irony in all this is that UNIX led the way in typesetting...
in the 1980's.

http://docstore.mik.ua/orelly/unix/upt/ch43_12.htm

In the early '80s, one thing that made UNIX popular was that it came with
its own typesetting system. It was the first operating system that could
really let users produce high-quality documents using laser printers.
Although there are probably more fancy editors available for Macintosh
systems, high-quality printing is still a part of the UNIX experience.

In spite of vendors often ignoring the now nearly omnipresent "UNIX" market.

Hey, Snit, "Hadron", you trolling bastards, check this out.
Should keep you busy for awhile:

http://partners.adobe.com/public/developer/en/ps/5003.PPD_Spec_v4.3.pdf
--------

Really: can you figure why he went so far off topic?


--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


RonB

unread,
Nov 17, 2010, 8:12:00 PM11/17/10
to
On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 01:53:06 +0100, TomB wrote:

> On 2010-11-15, the following emerged from the brain of Snit:
>>
>> Let us know when you catch up to the topic of venders supporting their
>> own hardware better than those who reverse-engineer drivers.
>
> Whoa, easy there. The topic was about Linux drivers (regardless of who
> created them) vs. drivers on other operating systems (in casu OSX and
> Windows).
>
> Vendor supplied vs. reverse engineered drivers is a completely different
> discussion.

Wasn't there a goalpost here? Oh... there it is. How did it get *way* over
there?

--
RonB
Registered Linux User #498581
CentOS 5.5 or VectorLinux Deluxe 6.0

Snit

unread,
Nov 17, 2010, 8:18:09 PM11/17/10
to
RonB stated in post ic1ugv$apt$1...@news.eternal-september.org on 11/17/10 6:12
PM:

> On Thu, 18 Nov 2010 01:53:06 +0100, TomB wrote:
>
>> On 2010-11-15, the following emerged from the brain of Snit:
>>>
>>> Let us know when you catch up to the topic of venders supporting their
>>> own hardware better than those who reverse-engineer drivers.
>>
>> Whoa, easy there. The topic was about Linux drivers (regardless of who
>> created them) vs. drivers on other operating systems (in casu OSX and
>> Windows).
>>
>> Vendor supplied vs. reverse engineered drivers is a completely different
>> discussion.
>
> Wasn't there a goalpost here? Oh... there it is. How did it get *way* over
> there?

Staaaaaaampeeeeeeeed!!!!!


--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


Chris Ahlstrom

unread,
Nov 18, 2010, 6:16:23 AM11/18/10
to
TomB pulled this Usenet face plant:

> On 2010-11-15, the following emerged from the brain of Snit:
>>
>> Let us know when you catch up to the topic of venders supporting their own
>> hardware better than those who reverse-engineer drivers.
>
> Whoa, easy there. The topic was about Linux drivers (regardless of who
> created them) vs. drivers on other operating systems (in casu OSX and
> Windows).
>
> Vendor supplied vs. reverse engineered drivers is a completely
> different discussion.

My point is that these two fools could check out the PPD files and verify
just what is or is not supported for a given printer, instead of their
callow allusions to alleged shortcomings in feature-support for CUPS-based
printing.

Besides, who can ever keep up with Snit's ever-morphing verbiage?

--
... I'm IMAGINING a sensuous GIRAFFE, CAVORTING in the BACK ROOM
of a KOSHER DELI --

Snit

unread,
Nov 18, 2010, 9:38:57 AM11/18/10
to
Chris Ahlstrom stated in post ic31s5$ki5$1...@news.eternal-september.org on
11/18/10 4:16 AM:

> TomB pulled this Usenet face plant:
>
>> On 2010-11-15, the following emerged from the brain of Snit:
>>>
>>> Let us know when you catch up to the topic of venders supporting their own
>>> hardware better than those who reverse-engineer drivers.
>>
>> Whoa, easy there. The topic was about Linux drivers (regardless of who
>> created them) vs. drivers on other operating systems (in casu OSX and
>> Windows).
>>
>> Vendor supplied vs. reverse engineered drivers is a completely
>> different discussion.
>
> My point is that these two fools could check out the PPD files and verify
> just what is or is not supported for a given printer, instead of their
> callow allusions to alleged shortcomings in feature-support for CUPS-based
> printing.
>
> Besides, who can ever keep up with Snit's ever-morphing verbiage?

Staaaaaaampeeeeeeeed!!!!!


--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


TomB

unread,
Nov 18, 2010, 1:21:09 PM11/18/10
to
On 2010-11-18, the following emerged from the brain of Snit:

> TomB stated in post 20101118...@usenet.drumscum.be on 11/17/10 5:53
> PM:
>
>>> Let us know when you catch up to the topic of venders supporting their own
>>> hardware better than those who reverse-engineer drivers.
>>
>> Whoa, easy there. The topic was about Linux drivers (regardless of who
>> created them) vs. drivers on other operating systems (in casu OSX and
>> Windows).
>>
>> Vendor supplied vs. reverse engineered drivers is a completely
>> different discussion.
>
> It was about the reverse-engineered Linux drivers, such as those used on
> printers when the manufacturer does not produce one.

Up to the point where I participated in the discussion, this was not
specified. Any of my comments also include vendor provided GNU/Linux
drivers, such as many NIC drivers, audio card drivers, video card
drivers and the ever increasing amount of printer drivers.

On reverse engineered drivers:

Yes, the ati/radeon drivers are not as feature-complete as the fglrx
driver. Yes, the nv/nouveau drivers are not as feature-complete as the
nvidia proprietary driver. One has to be an idiot to claim otherwise.

On the other hand, the reverse-engineered driver for the RME HDSP
audio cards offer every feature present in the vendor driver for
Windows/OSX, and even comes with the set of tools that also comes with
the vendor driver.

I kind of like the 'DIY' attitude of open source drivers.
They often come close to the 'real thing' (sometimes even surpassing
them), while there's no vendor support at all. Those are big
accomplishments by the folks putting all the hard work in it, and I do
everything to support those people by using their drivers where
possible.

--
There are more love songs than anything else. If songs could make you
do something we'd all love one another.
~ Frank Zappa

TomB

unread,
Nov 18, 2010, 1:22:52 PM11/18/10
to
On 2010-11-15, the following emerged from the brain of Glenn Hall:

> I don't
> like the new linuxprinting.org website because it's a pita to
> navigate to find this information.

Amen to that. What the hell were they thinking when they thought up
the new site. It totally sucks.

--
Maurice, potteke pis, potteke kak, almanak.
~ Urbanus

Snit

unread,
Nov 18, 2010, 2:48:04 PM11/18/10
to
TomB stated in post 201011181...@usenet.drumscum.be on 11/18/10 11:21
AM:

> On 2010-11-18, the following emerged from the brain of Snit:
>> TomB stated in post 20101118...@usenet.drumscum.be on 11/17/10 5:53
>> PM:
>>
>>>> Let us know when you catch up to the topic of venders supporting their own
>>>> hardware better than those who reverse-engineer drivers.
>>>
>>> Whoa, easy there. The topic was about Linux drivers (regardless of who
>>> created them) vs. drivers on other operating systems (in casu OSX and
>>> Windows).
>>>
>>> Vendor supplied vs. reverse engineered drivers is a completely
>>> different discussion.
>>
>> It was about the reverse-engineered Linux drivers, such as those used on
>> printers when the manufacturer does not produce one.
>
> Up to the point where I participated in the discussion, this was not
> specified.

Even you used the printers as an example! But enough of a nit and
meta-debate that it really does not matter to me.

> Any of my comments also include vendor provided GNU/Linux
> drivers, such as many NIC drivers, audio card drivers, video card
> drivers and the ever increasing amount of printer drivers.
>
> On reverse engineered drivers:
>
> Yes, the ati/radeon drivers are not as feature-complete as the fglrx
> driver. Yes, the nv/nouveau drivers are not as feature-complete as the
> nvidia proprietary driver. One has to be an idiot to claim otherwise.
>
> On the other hand, the reverse-engineered driver for the RME HDSP
> audio cards offer every feature present in the vendor driver for
> Windows/OSX, and even comes with the set of tools that also comes with
> the vendor driver.

My third party mouse driver is far, far better (for my needs) than any
driver Apple has ever had for OS X. Or before.
<http://plentycom.jp/en/steermouse/>

I have a mouse with no dedicated OS X driver (Logitech MX518) and the driver
is *excellent* for it. Even it notes, though, that "SteerMouse may not
work with some special functions".

> I kind of like the 'DIY' attitude of open source drivers.
> They often come close to the 'real thing' (sometimes even surpassing
> them), while there's no vendor support at all. Those are big
> accomplishments by the folks putting all the hard work in it, and I do
> everything to support those people by using their drivers where
> possible.

Do they even know you are using them? What form of support do you offer?


--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


Hadron

unread,
Nov 18, 2010, 4:32:20 PM11/18/10
to
Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> writes:

Which drivers surpass the dedicated 3rd party ones? Be specific and list
them if you would. I would be interested to see.

>> accomplishments by the folks putting all the hard work in it, and I do
>> everything to support those people by using their drivers where
>> possible.
>
> Do they even know you are using them? What form of support do you offer?

Zero I dare say. This is the guy remember who
quibbled over ./configure while playing silly word games.

TomB

unread,
Nov 18, 2010, 5:13:11 PM11/18/10
to
On 2010-11-18, the following emerged from the brain of Hadron:

> Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> writes:
>
>>> I kind of like the 'DIY' attitude of open source drivers.
>>> They often come close to the 'real thing' (sometimes even surpassing
>>> them), while there's no vendor support at all. Those are big
>
> Which drivers surpass the dedicated 3rd party ones? Be specific and list
> them if you would. I would be interested to see.

I recall reading some reports on open source network drivers offering
more stable operation and better throughput, but I can't remember the
specifics. And I don't feel like looking it up.

>>> accomplishments by the folks putting all the hard work in it, and I do
>>> everything to support those people by using their drivers where
>>> possible.
>>
>> Do they even know you are using them? What form of support do you offer?
>
> Zero I dare say. This is the guy remember who
> quibbled over ./configure while playing silly word games.

Bla bla... Go ruin your Debian box with apt-get.

--
Alle grote zangers zen allemaal homofiel.
En die heteroseksuelen leren best nen andere stiel.
~ Katastroof

Peter Köhlmann

unread,
Nov 18, 2010, 5:36:54 PM11/18/10
to
TomB wrote:

> On 2010-11-18, the following emerged from the brain of Hadron:
>> Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> writes:
>>
>>>> I kind of like the 'DIY' attitude of open source drivers.
>>>> They often come close to the 'real thing' (sometimes even surpassing
>>>> them), while there's no vendor support at all. Those are big
>>
>> Which drivers surpass the dedicated 3rd party ones? Be specific and list
>> them if you would. I would be interested to see.
>
> I recall reading some reports on open source network drivers offering
> more stable operation and better throughput, but I can't remember the
> specifics. And I don't feel like looking it up.

Linux network drivers are much faster than the windows ones

As linux overall is faster than windows.
As could be witnessed with the latest supercomputer.
The new japanese one is the first to break the Peta-Flops barrier with
Windows-HPC
Only, it was 5% faster runnning the exact same hardware under linux

>>>> accomplishments by the folks putting all the hard work in it, and I do
>>>> everything to support those people by using their drivers where
>>>> possible.
>>>
>>> Do they even know you are using them? What form of support do you offer?
>>
>> Zero I dare say. This is the guy remember who
>> quibbled over ./configure while playing silly word games.
>
> Bla bla... Go ruin your Debian box with apt-get.
>

He can't. He does not run linux
--
Windows was created to keep stupid people away from UNIX."
-- Tom Christiansen

Snit

unread,
Nov 18, 2010, 7:29:23 PM11/18/10
to
Peter Köhlmann stated in post ic49q7$4qc$02$1...@news.t-online.com on 11/18/10
3:36 PM:

> TomB wrote:


>
>> On 2010-11-18, the following emerged from the brain of Hadron:
>>> Snit <use...@gallopinginsanity.com> writes:
>>>
>>>>> I kind of like the 'DIY' attitude of open source drivers.
>>>>> They often come close to the 'real thing' (sometimes even surpassing
>>>>> them), while there's no vendor support at all. Those are big
>>>
>>> Which drivers surpass the dedicated 3rd party ones? Be specific and list
>>> them if you would. I would be interested to see.
>>
>> I recall reading some reports on open source network drivers offering
>> more stable operation and better throughput, but I can't remember the
>> specifics. And I don't feel like looking it up.
>
> Linux network drivers are much faster than the windows ones
>
> As linux overall is faster than windows.
> As could be witnessed with the latest supercomputer.
> The new japanese one is the first to break the Peta-Flops barrier with
> Windows-HPC
> Only, it was 5% faster runnning the exact same hardware under linux

Lovely but not really relevant.

>>>>> accomplishments by the folks putting all the hard work in it, and I do
>>>>> everything to support those people by using their drivers where
>>>>> possible.
>>>>
>>>> Do they even know you are using them? What form of support do you offer?
>>>
>>> Zero I dare say. This is the guy remember who
>>> quibbled over ./configure while playing silly word games.
>>
>> Bla bla... Go ruin your Debian box with apt-get.
>>
>
> He can't. He does not run linux

Lovely unsupported opinion. Oh, you are just trolling.

--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]


Hadron

unread,
Nov 18, 2010, 7:37:29 PM11/18/10
to
Peter Köhlmann <peter-k...@t-online.de> writes:

Then how come I was right and TomB was wrong about aptitude and
apt-get? How come I knew about the issues? etc.

You're an idiot Koehlmann.

And while I once hoped TomB wouldnt go down the "advocate" route he
has. Waffling on about things he doesnt know about and chooses to
believe arseholes like you rather than what he *should* read.

He was wrong about aptitude/apt-get. And he/Creepy were wrong about the
ipv6 things. AND I produced links to prove it.

Now run along Peter. You're an incompetent know nothing whose list of
faux pas is almost as long and boring as a Rexx or HPT post.

Peter Köhlmann

unread,
Nov 19, 2010, 3:57:25 AM11/19/10
to
Hadron wrote:

You aren't right. You have proven again that you know ZILCH about debian.
Not surprising, as you don't run it. You run WinXP

Come on, show us the links which prove your bullshit claims about the
different package tools in debian. You know you want to...

> You're an idiot Koehlmann.

Fine. But what does that make *you* then?
--
Microsoft Windows - The art of incompetence.

chrisv

unread,
Nov 19, 2010, 9:25:45 AM11/19/10
to
Peter Köhlmann wrote:

>Hadron quacked:


>>
>> Then how come I was right and TomB was wrong about aptitude and
>> apt-get? How come I knew about the issues? etc.

LOL

"Hadron" continues to declare victory, in the midst of his
humiliation.

Does this allow "Hadron" to "save face"? Guffaw.

>You aren't right. You have proven again that you know ZILCH about debian.
>Not surprising, as you don't run it. You run WinXP
>
>Come on, show us the links which prove your bullshit claims about the
>different package tools in debian. You know you want to...

Well, if the Wintroll can find some "blogger" who agrees with him, it
"proves" his point, you know. (rolling eyes)

>> You're an idiot Koehlmann.
>
>Fine. But what does that make *you* then?

This reminds me of what I thought when "Hadron" recently called me a
"retard".

I thought "So you're saying that a 'retard' is able to hand you your
ass every time you go up against him?"

Amazing.

One Shot-One Kill

unread,
Nov 19, 2010, 9:36:32 AM11/19/10
to

"chrisv" <chr...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:iq1de6l8vgvj8j42t...@4ax.com...

chrisv is a fscking retarded luser.

sheeesh - don't you ever get tired of making a complete asshole out of
yourself.

TomB

unread,
Nov 19, 2010, 9:43:18 AM11/19/10
to
On 2010-11-19, the following emerged from the brain of Hadron:

>
> Then how come I was right and TomB was wrong about aptitude and
> apt-get? How come I knew about the issues? etc.

The problem is that you are not right and that you have no idea at all
what you're talking about. You're just recycling a very popular
misconception.

Aptitude and apt-get are perfectly interchangeable. I know, because
I've been doing it for years without a single issue.

--
If you have five dollars and Chuck Norris has five dollars, Chuck
Norris has more money than you.

One Shot-One Kill

unread,
Nov 19, 2010, 9:48:00 AM11/19/10
to

"TomB" <tommy.b...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:201011191...@usenet.drumscum.be...

>
> Aptitude and apt-get are perfectly interchangeable. I know, because
> I've been doing it for years without a single issue.

BAWAWWAWWAWWAA!!!!

pay no attention to what the developers and experts say...... "It works for
me!!!!!"

BAWAWWAWWAWWAA!!!!


TomB

unread,
Nov 20, 2010, 3:22:29 PM11/20/10
to
On 2010-11-15, the following emerged from the brain of An Old Friend:
>
> Brother printers have so many stickers on them, you'd think they were
> trying to get them into NASCAR.

That's funny :-)

--
Middle age is having a choice between two temptations and choosing the
one that'll get you home earlier.
~ Dan Bennett

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