Android Linux: half-baked garbage

[DFS]

"Pros: A real competitor introducing an original smartphone OS as
opposed to the copy-machine, half-baked garbage that is Android.

Cons: None when compared to Android.

Summary: I hope Microsoft makes serious headway and displaces the
wannabe competitors out of the way. A serious name brand and support
(hopefully) to back it up. I have the highest hope that they will pull
it off. They most likely will not come close to iOS but we do need
serious innovation from companies that do real stuff instead of Google's
approach to hijack the OS, and stuff ads down everyone's throats while
trying to sell your data.

Go Microsoft!"



http://reviews.cnet.com/cell-phones/nokia-lumia-900-black/4864-6454_7-35117988-11.html?ord=ratingValue+asc&tag=userReviews;summaryList

[Foster]

The problem with Android is that it depends upon the phone you
choose.
Some are really good, like my Droid Razr Maxx and some are horrible.
That's why the reviews are all over the place for Android phones.

Apple is consistent which is a huge plus.

[Bob Hauck]

It is hard to be inconsistent when you only make one phone. Duh!

--
Bob Hauck

[chrisv]

Bob Hauck wrote:

> troll wrote:
>>
>> The problem with Android is that it depends upon the phone you
>> choose.
>> Some are really good, like my Droid Razr Maxx and some are horrible.
>> That's why the reviews are all over the place for Android phones.
>>
>> Apple is consistent which is a huge plus.
>
>It is hard to be inconsistent when you only make one phone. Duh!

Trolls sure are stupid, aren't they?

--
'Fortune magazine puts out a list of the most respected/admired
companies each year. GE, HP, Msft consistently make the top 5 each
year. This notion that "the world is fed up with Msft" and that
everyone hates them is a laughable notion conjured up here at COLA.'
- Larry "message ID" Qualig

[Snit]

DFS stated in post jmrl56$608$5...@dont-email.me on 4/20/12 5:34 AM:

> "Pros: A real competitor introducing an original smartphone OS as
> opposed to the copy-machine, half-baked garbage that is Android.

While Android is clearly influenced by iOS, I am not convinced it has
crossed the line in its "inspiration". I would love to hear more about
this. I admit my experience with it is quite limited.

> Cons: None when compared to Android.
>
> Summary: I hope Microsoft makes serious headway and displaces the
> wannabe competitors out of the way. A serious name brand and support
> (hopefully) to back it up. I have the highest hope that they will pull
> it off. They most likely will not come close to iOS but we do need
> serious innovation from companies that do real stuff instead of Google's
> approach to hijack the OS, and stuff ads down everyone's throats while
> trying to sell your data.
>
> Go Microsoft!"
>
>
>
> http://reviews.cnet.com/cell-phones/nokia-lumia-900-black/4864-6454_7-35117988
> -11.html?ord=ratingValue+asc&tag=userReviews;summaryList

--
🙈🙉🙊

[Homer]

Gangster propagandist DooFuS sneered:
>
> http://reviews.cnet.com/cell-phones/nokia-lumia-900-black/4864-6454_7-35117988-11.html?ord=ratingValue+asc&tag=userReviews;summaryList

Gee, a comment by a fellow gangster groupie (or maybe you posted it
yourself).

I'm sure the 98.1% of people who currently /don't/ want Tiles® will
immediately rush out and buy it, based solely on that one comment.

Heck, they can't even give it away:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/04/11/noka_lumia_bug

Talk about "half-baked garbage".

--
K. | "You see? You cannot kill me. There is no flesh
http://slated.org | and blood within this cloak to kill. There is
Fedora 8 (Werewolf) on šky | only an idea. And ideas are bulletproof."
kernel 2.6.31.5, up 73 days | ~ V for Vendetta.

[DFS]

KDE and Gnome make only one desktop, and it's wildly inconsistent from
one major release to the next.

[Chris Ahlstrom]

Homer wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> Gangster propagandist DooFuS sneered:

>
> Talk about "half-baked garbage".

You mean DFS, of course.

--
Boy, you really are losing the plot. Take some more meds and then go and
boil your head. You will feel much, much better.
-- "Hadron", http://www.webservertalk.com/archive230-2007-4-1853959.html

[Foster]

Even between models.
But, yes that is true.

[Foster]

Bingo...

Pick up and iPhone 4 and then a 4S and not only are both supported
but they are consistent between the various models Apple makes.

That's my point.

[Tom Shelton]

It happens that Homer formulated :

> Gangster propagandist DooFuS sneered:
>>
>> http://reviews.cnet.com/cell-phones/nokia-lumia-900-black/4864-6454_7-35117988-11.html?ord=ratingValue+asc&tag=userReviews;summaryList
>
> Gee, a comment by a fellow gangster groupie (or maybe you posted it
> yourself).
>
> I'm sure the 98.1% of people who currently /don't/ want Tiles® will
> immediately rush out and buy it, based solely on that one comment.
>
> Heck, they can't even give it away:
>

Really, in fact, the lumia 900 seems to be selling rather well. It was
at #1 (black) and #2 (cyan) on amazon for a bit over a week after
launch on amazon. The black is still #4 overall - and is actually #1
for at&t phones. Teh cyan version is sold out at at&t and best buy.
The lumia has sold out at many at&t stores... I understand that at&t
has started selling the white version in some stores - which was
supposed to be released on the 22nd, if the lumia sold well.

And now, Verizon says they are getting behind WP - starting with WP8
phones. They are going to start pushing it like the droid's. Android
isn't the only lte option in town anymore.

> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/04/11/noka_lumia_bug
>
> Talk about "half-baked garbage".

lol... Do you want me to post links to the thousands of articles
detailing android bugs? Seriously, that bug affected a relatively
small set of handsets - and owners of those handsets have already been
pushed a patch or a new phone.

--
Tom Shelton

[Tom Shelton]

It happens that Homer formulated :

> Gangster propagandist DooFuS sneered:
>>
>> http://reviews.cnet.com/cell-phones/nokia-lumia-900-black/4864-6454_7-35117988-11.html?ord=ratingValue+asc&tag=userReviews;summaryList
>
> Gee, a comment by a fellow gangster groupie (or maybe you posted it
> yourself).
>
> I'm sure the 98.1% of people who currently /don't/ want Tiles® will
> immediately rush out and buy it, based solely on that one comment.
>
> Heck, they can't even give it away:
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/04/11/noka_lumia_bug
>
> Talk about "half-baked garbage".

Oh yeah, as far as what users think of hte phones - check out teh 10
highest rated phones on amazon - 7 out of the 10 are windows phones.

1. Nokia Lumia 900 4G Windows Phone, Cyan (AT&T)
2. Nokia Lumia 900 4G Windows Phone, Black (AT&T)
3. HTC Titan Windows Phone (AT&T)
4. Samsung Focus S 4G Windows Phone (AT&T)
5. Samsung Galaxy Note 4G Android Phone, Carbon Blue (AT&T)
6. Motorola DROID RAZR MAXX 4G Android Phone, Black 32GB (Verizon
7. HTC Radar 4G Windows Phone (T-Mobile)
8. Nokia Lumia 710 4G Windows Phone, White (T-Mobile)
9. Samsung Galaxy Note 4G Android Phone, Ceramic White (AT&T)
10. Nokia Lumia 710 4G Windows Phone (T-Mobile)

For "half-baked garbage" - people seem to like their windows phones.

--
Tom Shelton

[Torre Starnes]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 14:08:51 -0600, Tom Shelton wrote:

> It happens that Homer formulated :
>> Gangster propagandist DooFuS sneered:
>>>
>>> http://reviews.cnet.com/cell-phones/nokia-lumia-900-black/4864-6454_7-35117988-11.html?ord=ratingValue+asc&tag=userReviews;summaryList
>>
>> Gee, a comment by a fellow gangster groupie (or maybe you posted it
>> yourself).
>>

>> I'm sure the 98.1% of people who currently /don't/ want TilesŽ will

>> immediately rush out and buy it, based solely on that one comment.
>>
>> Heck, they can't even give it away:
>>
>
> Really, in fact, the lumia 900 seems to be selling rather well. It was
> at #1 (black) and #2 (cyan) on amazon for a bit over a week after
> launch on amazon. The black is still #4 overall - and is actually #1
> for at&t phones. Teh cyan version is sold out at at&t and best buy.
> The lumia has sold out at many at&t stores... I understand that at&t
> has started selling the white version in some stores - which was
> supposed to be released on the 22nd, if the lumia sold well.
>
> And now, Verizon says they are getting behind WP - starting with WP8
> phones. They are going to start pushing it like the droid's. Android
> isn't the only lte option in town anymore.
>
>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/04/11/noka_lumia_bug
>>
>> Talk about "half-baked garbage".
>
> lol... Do you want me to post links to the thousands of articles
> detailing android bugs? Seriously, that bug affected a relatively
> small set of handsets - and owners of those handsets have already been
> pushed a patch or a new phone.

I've been very happy with my Android phone (Droid Razr Maxx)and
haven't run into any bugs but it does have some oddities, like
refusing to clear the browser or "Google" search cache and history
automatically even if I tell it to do so.

The Windows phone is really very nice but Verizon only had HTC
phones and I don't like those hardware wise, bad experiences.

Windows is also late to the game so who knows.
What *is* apparent is that people who actually have an unbiased
approach and try the Windows phones are very impressed.

In all honesty, I think it boils down to this for me and here was my
feelings when I was shopping last month.

1. iPhone...

Advantages: Clearly the standard. Most support, solid
applications, good quality sound and no killer bugs. Outstanding
build quality. It just feels nice.

Disadvantages: Locked into Apple unless rooted. Do it their way or
it's the highway. I don't happen to like some of the Apple
offerings, iTunes for one. I'm not really interested in rooting the
phone.



2. Android (Razr Maxx)....

Advantages: Insane 21 hour battery life, and this is real world in
my experience. Bigger screen. Freedom to choose what applications I
want without being locked into Google (Apple cloud) if I want.
Outstanding build quality, but a little large. 4G and fantastic
switching from network to 4G. Smart actions. Widgets. Super fast
processor eats processor hungry applications alive.

Disadvantages: Audio quality is not great. Mine might be a lemon
though. That's my only complaint.

3. Windows Phone:

Advantages: The Tile Interface is slick for a phone. Very fast to
change applications etc. Powerful processor with no lagging.

Disadvantages:

Late to the game. Will it survive? Zune was a better player overall
than iPod and it died. Only one model on Verizon at the time.

[Tom Shelton]

Torre Starnes brought next idea :

> On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 14:08:51 -0600, Tom Shelton wrote:
>
>> It happens that Homer formulated :
>>> Gangster propagandist DooFuS sneered:
>>>>
>>>> http://reviews.cnet.com/cell-phones/nokia-lumia-900-black/4864-6454_7-35117988-11.html?ord=ratingValue+asc&tag=userReviews;summaryList
>>>
>>> Gee, a comment by a fellow gangster groupie (or maybe you posted it
>>> yourself).
>>>

>>> I'm sure the 98.1% of people who currently /don't/ want Tiles® will

If i was on verizon right now, I would not get a windows phone, the htc
trophy was only an ok phone when it was release back at the end of
2010. I would probably go for the Galaxy Note myself. But, the good
news for MS is that yesterday, Verizon stated on their earnings call
that they are getting behind MS and WP starting with WP8 phones comming
in the fall... They were claiming they plan to push them at the same
level as their droid line.

--
Tom Shelton

[Foster]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 14:40:19 -0600, Tom Shelton wrote:


> If i was on verizon right now, I would not get a windows phone, the htc
> trophy was only an ok phone when it was release back at the end of
> 2010. I would probably go for the Galaxy Note myself. But, the good
> news for MS is that yesterday, Verizon stated on their earnings call
> that they are getting behind MS and WP starting with WP8 phones comming
> in the fall... They were claiming they plan to push them at the same
> level as their droid line.

Yea.
They didn't have the Galaxy Note when I was shopping. The Galaxy SII
or whatever it is, is very cheap feeling. It's like all plastic and
feels like it won't hold up.

The Note would probably be a strong contender if I were buying
today.

[JEDIDIAH]

No they are not.

They're not any worse than Windows or MacOS in this regard.

If anything, the Linux interfaces are more stable.

--
Apple: Because a large harddrive is for power users.
|||
/ | \

[OldGoat]

Apples UI guidelines are fairly strick in this regard. Haven't had any
problems with their UI yet. Their UI is a bit better than win7, let
alone Linux UI. I like the ability to have an overlaying window that
you are reading and still move the mouse pointer over the underlying
page and scroll it without losing the overlying window. You can't do
that in Win7 without losing the overlying window.

> If anything, the Linux interfaces are more stable.
>

I've had a few issues about Linux UI stability.
I've had Yast lock up with a message window saying it was unresponsive.
Had to kill it and start again.

[OldGoat]

The only thing I got against all of these cell phones are the people
driving and trying to use them at the same time. One girl drove into
the light pole out front and banged up here car pretty good. She was
using a cell phone. Now they are considering a law that they have to
pull over to the side of the road and stop if they want to use one.

[JEDIDIAH]

On 2012-04-20, OldGoat <oa...@farmerbrowns.com> wrote:
> On 4/20/2012 2:46 PM, JEDIDIAH wrote:
>> On 2012-04-20, DFS<nos...@dfs.com> wrote:
>>> On 4/20/2012 2:04 PM, Bob Hauck wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 11:55:51 -0400, Foster<frankf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 08:34:35 -0400, DFS wrote:

[deletia]

>> If anything, the Linux interfaces are more stable.
>>
>
> I've had a few issues about Linux UI stability.
> I've had Yast lock up with a message window saying it was unresponsive.

You're pretty retarded for someone that claims to be a VMS fanboy.

I think if you had to use a real live vax your head would explode.

[Chris Ahlstrom]

JEDIDIAH wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

Does DFS *really* want to compare the changes from Win NT 3.5 to Win NT
4 to Win XP to Win Vista/7 and claim that they're less inconsistent than
Gnome/KDE? Really? Really!?

He's as stupid as this fscker:

--
> My heart goes out to them as they work hard to make this a less
> literate, more impolite society.
He says posting a one liner behind a nym to use net based on his closed
minded philosophies!
LOL! Just when I thought Chris Ahlstrom had cornered the "hypocrite" of
the year award!
-- "Hadron", http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/browse_thread/thread/3c56424f6120f60/9b696ba14882f32b?lnk=gst&q=hadron#9b696ba14882f32b

[Foster]

On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 18:31:00 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> JEDIDIAH wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On 2012-04-20, DFS <nos...@dfs.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> KDE and Gnome make only one desktop, and it's wildly inconsistent from
>>> one major release to the next.
>>
>> No they are not.
>> They're not any worse than Windows or MacOS in this regard.
>> If anything, the Linux interfaces are more stable.
>
> Does DFS *really* want to compare the changes from Win NT 3.5 to Win NT
> 4 to Win XP to Win Vista/7 and claim that they're less inconsistent than
> Gnome/KDE? Really? Really!?

We prefer to compare what people want.
Hint: It's not desktop Linux.

> He's as stupid as this fscker:

The only stupid people are those working hard writing programs and
then allowing conglomerates like IBM to profit from their work.

***SUCKERS***

[Hardon]

<http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-04-17/telecom/31354630_1_nokia-lumia-microsoft-s-windows-phone-smartphone-market>

<quote>
Nokia's bid to challenge the dominance of Apple's iPhone and Google's
Android has failed to convince telecom operators in Europe, depriving
it of powerful allies in its fight to regain the top spot in the
mobile market.

Four major telecom operators in Europe, where the phones have been on
sale since before Christmas, told Reuters the new Nokia Lumia
smartphones were not good enough to compete with Apple's iPhone or
Samsung's Galaxy phones.
</quote>

The Lumia 900 debacle has all but sealed Nokia's fate and Microsoft's
fate in the mobile market.

I've said it before but its worth repeating, only an idiot would buy a
WP7 tiles phone. The WP7 is exactly what I would have expected
Microsoft to produce. It is mediocre at best with a UI interface I'd
expect to see on a toy for pre-school kids. Sales confirm this.

--
In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with
reality at any point
-Friedrich Nietzsche

[Hadron]

And between apps aimed at the specific desktop. Who can ever forget
Kohlmann spouting off about how close never exits an app : thus proving
my point on how confused people get when the apps are not using
consistent key strokes and wordings - he was simply lost. I even began
to wonder if he even uses a Linux based DE and WM.

[DFS]

On 4/21/2012 12:29 AM, Hardon wrote:
> <http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-04-17/telecom/31354630_1_nokia-lumia-microsoft-s-windows-phone-smartphone-market>
>
> <quote>
> Nokia's bid to challenge the dominance of Apple's iPhone and Google's
> Android has failed to convince telecom operators in Europe, depriving
> it of powerful allies in its fight to regain the top spot in the
> mobile market.
>
> Four major telecom operators in Europe, where the phones have been on
> sale since before Christmas, told Reuters the new Nokia Lumia
> smartphones were not good enough to compete with Apple's iPhone or
> Samsung's Galaxy phones.
> </quote>
>
> The Lumia 900 debacle has all but sealed Nokia's fate and Microsoft's
> fate in the mobile market.
>
> I've said it before

And it's just as stupid this time.

> but its worth repeating, only an idiot would buy a
> WP7 tiles phone. The WP7 is exactly what I would have expected
> Microsoft to produce. It is mediocre at best with a UI interface I'd
> expect to see on a toy for pre-school kids. Sales confirm this.

You're ignorant, Hardon. And unimaginative, as your stolen nym proves.

[DFS]

In Windows you take it for granted that Close closes a document but
leaves the app open.

Exit closes the app.

There is no Quit in Windows apps (that I can recall seeing).

> - he was simply lost. I even began
> to wonder if he even uses a Linux based DE and WM.

Dumbkopf has never used Linux.

[Steve Carroll]

On Apr 21, 9:46 am, DFS <nos...@dfs.com> wrote:
> On 4/21/2012 12:29 AM, Hardon wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> > <http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-04-17/telecom/313546...>

>
> > <quote>
> > Nokia's bid to challenge the dominance of Apple's iPhone and Google's
> > Android has failed to convince telecom operators in Europe, depriving
> > it of powerful allies in its fight to regain the top spot in the
> > mobile market.
>
> > Four major telecom operators in Europe, where the phones have been on
> > sale since before Christmas, told Reuters the new Nokia Lumia
> > smartphones were not good enough to compete with Apple's iPhone or
> > Samsung's Galaxy phones.
> > </quote>
>
> > The Lumia 900 debacle has all but sealed Nokia's fate and Microsoft's
> > fate in the mobile market.
>
> > I've said it before
>
> And it's just as stupid this time.
>
> > but its worth repeating, only an idiot would buy a
> > WP7 tiles phone. The WP7 is exactly what I would have expected
> > Microsoft to produce. It is mediocre at best with a UI interface I'd
> > expect to see on a toy for pre-school kids. Sales confirm this.
>
> You're ignorant, Hardon.  And unimaginative, as your stolen nym proves.

Think he needs one like yours? (D)emented (F)reak (S)how

[OldGoat]

On 4/20/2012 3:51 PM, JEDIDIAH wrote:
> On 2012-04-20, OldGoat<oa...@farmerbrowns.com> wrote:
>> On 4/20/2012 2:46 PM, JEDIDIAH wrote:
>>> On 2012-04-20, DFS<nos...@dfs.com> wrote:
>>>> On 4/20/2012 2:04 PM, Bob Hauck wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 11:55:51 -0400, Foster<frankf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 08:34:35 -0400, DFS wrote:
> [deletia]
>>> If anything, the Linux interfaces are more stable.
>>>
>>
>> I've had a few issues about Linux UI stability.
>> I've had Yast lock up with a message window saying it was unresponsive.
>
> You're pretty retarded for someone that claims to be a VMS fanboy.
>

Guffaw!!! Put the cap back on the glue, gluehead.

> I think if you had to use a real live vax your head would explode.
>

Hah! You wouldn't know one if it weren't for the label on it.
And I know you've never used one, gluehead.

[TomB]

On 2012-04-21, the following emerged from the brain of DFS:

8<

> In Windows you take it for granted that Close closes a document but
> leaves the app open.
>
> Exit closes the app.

Just like on GNU/Linux then. And on both operating systems some
applications will exit when you close the last open file, while other
will remain running.

> There is no Quit in Windows apps (that I can recall seeing).

Depends on what you call a "Windows app". I know I have some
applicatins on my Windows boxes that use quit instead of exit (I can
provide you with some screenshots if you like), just like on GNU/Linux
(where - through KDE and Gnome - quit is the norm), a minority of
programs use exit instead.

Really, the situation between Windows and GNU/Linux is quite similar
in this regard. In my opinion a typical Windows desktop will even show
more UI inconsistencies that a typical GNU/Linux desktop. For
instance, on Windows a lot of applications insist on providing their
own window decorations, and there are quite some applications that do
not have a keybinding for exit, but rely on the system keybinding of
Alt-F4 instead.

Just my two cents.

[Torre Starnes]

That's one thing that confuses me with Android on the phone. You
never actually "close" an application. You go back to the home
screen and allow the OS to close the application. Seems odd to me,
but it does seem to work.

[Snit]

TomB stated in post 201204220...@usenet.drumscum.be on 4/22/12 12:32
AM:

> On 2012-04-21, the following emerged from the brain of DFS:
>
> 8<
>
>> In Windows you take it for granted that Close closes a document but
>> leaves the app open.
>>
>> Exit closes the app.
>
> Just like on GNU/Linux then. And on both operating systems some
> applications will exit when you close the last open file, while other
> will remain running.

On both Windows and desktop Linux, when you close the last window the
application generally closes... though there are some exceptions on both.

On OS X, when you close the last window the application generally stays
active - esp. if it is one that can deal with multiple files. There are
some exceptions to the "rule" and the inconsistency, I think, is a problem.

>> There is no Quit in Windows apps (that I can recall seeing).
>
> Depends on what you call a "Windows app". I know I have some
> applicatins on my Windows boxes that use quit instead of exit (I can
> provide you with some screenshots if you like), just like on GNU/Linux
> (where - through KDE and Gnome - quit is the norm), a minority of
> programs use exit instead.

On Windows the norm is "Exit" and on OS X the norm is "Quit [Application"].
Such a norm is not only lacking on desktop Linux in general, no distro
really has much of a norm, other in what they include by default. With OS X
and Windows those defaults are respected by the vast majority of software.

> Really, the situation between Windows and GNU/Linux is quite similar
> in this regard.

Not even close. There is no desktop Linux standard here... so the situation
cannot be the same as it is on OSs with standards. This is one of the
reasons Unity is doing away with the menu names - to avoid such
inconsistencies and, in some cases, confusion (though most people are not
really that "confused" by such things, it still is a weakness and a good
example of a place where even something that should be trivial to get
"right" or at least mostly "right" is just handled poorly.

I have talked about ways this could be done better *and* allow for more real
choice and flexibility on the system level of desktop Linux distros.

Oh, and for what it is worth, it is not as if even Linux "advocates" do not
have problems with the terms Quit and Exit being used interchangeably... not
that the confusion shown by the "advocates" is the primary problem, but here
are some examples of it:

Peter Köhlmann:
-----
The apps with "Quit" do *not* exit, they continue to run
in the background
-----

J G Miller:
------
But they do not mean the same thing. As far as I am aware
the accepted usage is that EXIT means commit all changes and
cleanly end the program. QUIT could mean abandon the changes
made under a sub-dialog (but usually this is termed CANCEL)
or could mean exit the program abruptly without doing
anything or saving any changes.
------

> In my opinion a typical Windows desktop will even show more UI inconsistencies
> that a typical GNU/Linux desktop. For instance, on Windows a lot of
> applications insist on providing their own window decorations, and there are
> quite some applications that do not have a keybinding for exit, but rely on
> the system keybinding of Alt-F4 instead.
>
> Just my two cents.

The window dressing on Windows is a bit of a mess... and with the transition
to the Ribbon UI there are at least two major UI paradigms "competing" on
the same system... but at least with that there is a form of transition
happening (though MS is not really pushing the idea of a full migration to
the new paradigm... and is now introducing anther one...). So, yeah, MS by
itself is working on making its own OS and even its own applications as
inconsistent as what you find on desktop Linux distros. Really poor choice
on the part of MS... at least desktop Linux has its development model as an
excuse for this problem. And it is a problem in terms of productivity,
error reduction, jumping from app to app, etc. As desktop Linux and the OSS
community has been working to make this better on open systems, MS has been
messing around with a half-migration and mixing paradigms.

The only major desktop OS where this aspect of productivity and
error-reduction and the like is handled well is OS X (and, of course, it is
not perfect... but it is far, far ahead of the competition *in this area*).

--
🙈🙉🙊

[Hadron]

TomB <tommy.b...@gmail.com> writes:

> On 2012-04-21, the following emerged from the brain of DFS:
>
> 8<
>
>> In Windows you take it for granted that Close closes a document but
>> leaves the app open.
>>
>> Exit closes the app.
>
> Just like on GNU/Linux then. And on both operating systems some
> applications will exit when you close the last open file, while other
> will remain running.

Oh jesus. It#s like waatching a goldfish argue. You come up with the
same crap time and time again totally ignoring the facts WE said this
was important but due to the lack of confirmity to UI guidelines more
often than not programs on specific DEs do NOT conform to the guidlines
and this creats confusion. Including with Peter Kohlmann who made
another sweeping claim about "how it works" only to be given numerous
examples of where it does NOT work like that.

Do TRY and keep up or retain some context.

[Snit]

Hadron stated in post iohawbo...@news.eternal-september.org on 4/22/12
9:08 AM:

When it is noted that the mixing of UIs on desktop Linux is a problem the
herd has a knee-jerk reaction to deny the problem. But they sometimes slip
and are honest about their understanding that it *is* a problem. Some
examples:

JEDIDIAH
-----
No, you went out of your way to install it despite having a
mail client installed already. You went out of your way to
"stray off the reservation" as it were.
-----

Peter Köhlmann:
-----
Why would a user install apps from different DEs if he does
not need to?
-----

They *know* their BS of it not being an issue is simply a lie.

--
🙈🙉🙊

[cc]

On Friday, April 20, 2012 3:45:08 PM UTC-4, DFS wrote:
> On 4/20/2012 2:04 PM, Bob Hauck wrote:
> > On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 11:55:51 -0400, Foster<frankf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 08:34:35 -0400, DFS wrote:
> >>
> >>> "Pros: A real competitor introducing an original smartphone OS as
> >>> opposed to the copy-machine, half-baked garbage that is Android.
> >>>
> >>> Cons: None when compared to Android.
> >>>
> >>> Summary: I hope Microsoft makes serious headway and displaces the
> >>> wannabe competitors out of the way. A serious name brand and support
> >>> (hopefully) to back it up. I have the highest hope that they will pull
> >>> it off. They most likely will not come close to iOS but we do need
> >>> serious innovation from companies that do real stuff instead of Google's
> >>> approach to hijack the OS, and stuff ads down everyone's throats while
> >>> trying to sell your data.
> >>>
> >>> Go Microsoft!"
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> http://reviews.cnet.com/cell-phones/nokia-lumia-900-black/4864-6454_7-35117988-11.html?ord=ratingValue+asc&tag=userReviews;summaryList
> >>
> >> The problem with Android is that it depends upon the phone you
> >> choose.
> >> Some are really good, like my Droid Razr Maxx and some are horrible.
> >> That's why the reviews are all over the place for Android phones.
> >>
> >> Apple is consistent which is a huge plus.
> >
> > It is hard to be inconsistent when you only make one phone. Duh!
>
>
> KDE and Gnome make only one desktop, and it's wildly inconsistent from
> one major release to the next.

That can't be true. Both are developed by HCI experts who have been improving the UI and bringing in new users to Linux.

--
"While pregnant for me, my mom continued to drink, at least for the 1st trimester if not more." - Snit

[JEDIDIAH]

On 2012-04-22, Hadron <hadro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> TomB <tommy.b...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 2012-04-21, the following emerged from the brain of DFS:
>>
>> 8<
>>
>>> In Windows you take it for granted that Close closes a document but
>>> leaves the app open.
>>>
>>> Exit closes the app.
>>
>> Just like on GNU/Linux then. And on both operating systems some
>> applications will exit when you close the last open file, while other
>> will remain running.
>
>
>
> Oh jesus. It#s like waatching a goldfish argue. You come up with the
> same crap time and time again totally ignoring the facts WE said this
> was important but due to the lack of confirmity to UI guidelines more

...despite the fact that it is something that other platforms really
don't do any better with.

Thmakes you an official hypocrite.

[deletia]

--
It's not the size of the CPU, it's how you use it. |||
/ | \

[JEDIDIAH]

On 2012-04-21, OldGoat <oa...@farmerbrowns.com> wrote:
> On 4/20/2012 3:51 PM, JEDIDIAH wrote:
>> On 2012-04-20, OldGoat<oa...@farmerbrowns.com> wrote:
>>> On 4/20/2012 2:46 PM, JEDIDIAH wrote:
>>>> On 2012-04-20, DFS<nos...@dfs.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 4/20/2012 2:04 PM, Bob Hauck wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 11:55:51 -0400, Foster<frankf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 08:34:35 -0400, DFS wrote:
>> [deletia]
>>>> If anything, the Linux interfaces are more stable.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I've had a few issues about Linux UI stability.
>>> I've had Yast lock up with a message window saying it was unresponsive.
>>
>> You're pretty retarded for someone that claims to be a VMS fanboy.
>>
>
> Guffaw!!! Put the cap back on the glue, gluehead.

I'm not a gluehead, I am a former VMS user.

It's too bad the market is filled with small minded people like you.

Otherwise, VMS might still have a place somewhere. Alpha too.

[Snit]

cc stated in post
29472016.85.1335202628013.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@pblb1 on 4/23/12
10:37 AM:

...

>>>> Apple is consistent which is a huge plus.
>>>
>>> It is hard to be inconsistent when you only make one phone. Duh!
>>
>>
>> KDE and Gnome make only one desktop, and it's wildly inconsistent from
>> one major release to the next.
>
> That can't be true.

I suppose it is in how you read it.

KDE and Gnome each make their own desktop... but they are not, together,
making "only one desktop".

🙈🙉🙊

[GreyCloud]

JEDIDIAH wrote:

> On 2012-04-21, OldGoat <oa...@farmerbrowns.com> wrote:
>> On 4/20/2012 3:51 PM, JEDIDIAH wrote:
>>> On 2012-04-20, OldGoat<oa...@farmerbrowns.com> wrote:
>>>> On 4/20/2012 2:46 PM, JEDIDIAH wrote:
>>>>> On 2012-04-20, DFS<nos...@dfs.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/20/2012 2:04 PM, Bob Hauck wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 11:55:51 -0400, Foster<frankf...@yahoo.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 08:34:35 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>> [deletia]
>>>>> If anything, the Linux interfaces are more stable.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've had a few issues about Linux UI stability.
>>>> I've had Yast lock up with a message window saying it was unresponsive.
>>>
>>> You're pretty retarded for someone that claims to be a VMS fanboy.
>>>
>>
>> Guffaw!!! Put the cap back on the glue, gluehead.
>
> I'm not a gluehead, I am a former VMS user.
>

If you were, you should have had your head examined by now.

> It's too bad the market is filled with small minded people like you.
>

Guffaw!!! Your tin-foil hat being stuffed on so tight is making you small
in many ways.

> Otherwise, VMS might still have a place somewhere. Alpha too.
>

That isn't my fault. Look to HP marketing dept. for that screw up.
Even now, vms is more secure. Lets see if a new linux os can meet the B3
security standards that vms has had for so many years.

[GreyCloud]

You've got a valid point, however, so does DFS. The difference between
openSUSE 11.3 and 12.1 *is* the UI. And there is not much in consistency as
he has mentioned.

[JEDIDIAH]

On 2012-04-23, GreyCloud <mi...@cumulus.com> wrote:
> JEDIDIAH wrote:
>
>> On 2012-04-21, OldGoat <oa...@farmerbrowns.com> wrote:
>>> On 4/20/2012 3:51 PM, JEDIDIAH wrote:
>>>> On 2012-04-20, OldGoat<oa...@farmerbrowns.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 4/20/2012 2:46 PM, JEDIDIAH wrote:
>>>>>> On 2012-04-20, DFS<nos...@dfs.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/20/2012 2:04 PM, Bob Hauck wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 11:55:51 -0400, Foster<frankf...@yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 08:34:35 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>> [deletia]
>>>>>> If anything, the Linux interfaces are more stable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I've had a few issues about Linux UI stability.
>>>>> I've had Yast lock up with a message window saying it was unresponsive.
>>>>
>>>> You're pretty retarded for someone that claims to be a VMS fanboy.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Guffaw!!! Put the cap back on the glue, gluehead.
>>
>> I'm not a gluehead, I am a former VMS user.
>>
>
> If you were, you should have had your head examined by now.
>
>> It's too bad the market is filled with small minded people like you.
>>
>
> Guffaw!!! Your tin-foil hat being stuffed on so tight is making you small
> in many ways.

I'm not a Fascist prick like you that can't stand choice in the market place.

I've lamented the demise of worthy competitors in this forum before.

I'm not like the Lemmings and Fanboys here (like you) that can only set their
particular pet brand and nothing else.

--
I was format shifting in the 70s. |||
/ | \

[GreyCloud]

Hah! I've said it before and I'll say it again. The whole computer market
has stagnated. So why isn't linux innovating new concepts?
Right now, not much is new or exciting under the sun.
And at least I'm not a socialist prick like you are. With you clowns,
everything has to be free or should be shunned if it isn't.

>
> I've lamented the demise of worthy competitors in this forum before.
>
> I'm not like the Lemmings and Fanboys here (like you) that can only
> set their
> particular pet brand and nothing else.
>

I much prefer OpenVMS to anything else. But who can afford their licensing?
It is still the best out there. But not for long, HP keeps screwing around
with the lack of advertising and their adamant refusal to port it over to
the x86_64 platform.

[DFS]

On 4/23/2012 1:37 PM, cc wrote:

>> KDE and Gnome make only one desktop, and it's wildly inconsistent
>> from one major release to the next.
>
> That can't be true. Both are developed by HCI experts who have been
> improving the UI and bringing in new users to Linux.

Would be nice to know the research done and qualifications of the
person(s) that decreed various changes in Gnome and KDE.

First quality they look for is obviously colorblindness.

Also must have own copies of Windows and OSX to cadge from.

[DFS]

On 4/22/2012 3:32 AM, TomB wrote:
> On 2012-04-21, the following emerged from the brain of DFS:
>
> 8<
>
>> In Windows you take it for granted that Close closes a document but
>> leaves the app open.
>>
>> Exit closes the app.
>
> Just like on GNU/Linux then. And on both operating systems some
> applications will exit when you close the last open file, while other
> will remain running.

Which Windows apps close when the last open file/document is closed?
This is another thing I've never seen on Windows. Ever.

>> There is no Quit in Windows apps (that I can recall seeing).
>
> Depends on what you call a "Windows app".

Windows app = developed on and native to Windows
Cross-platform app running on Windows <> Windows app

> I know I have some
> applicatins on my Windows boxes that use quit instead of exit (I can
> provide you with some screenshots if you like), just like on GNU/Linux
> (where - through KDE and Gnome - quit is the norm), a minority of
> programs use exit instead.

Yes, show me the screenshots or tell me the app names.

I literally never recall seeing a Windows app use Quit in the File menu.
Not once. Server or desktop.

> Really, the situation between Windows and GNU/Linux is quite similar
> in this regard.

Horseshit.

> In my opinion a typical Windows desktop will even show
> more UI inconsistencies that a typical GNU/Linux desktop. For
> instance, on Windows a lot of applications insist on providing their
> own window decorations, and there are quite some applications that do
> not have a keybinding for exit, but rely on the system keybinding of
> Alt-F4 instead.

In my opinion, Linux desktops still look much more disjointed than
Windows desktops. It's mostly a non-issue, but the Close/Quit/Exit
thing is still ridiculous.

I also don't like Linux Edit | Preferences vs Windows Tools | Options.



> Just my two cents.

[Peter Köhlmann]

GreyCloud wrote:

> cc wrote:

>>> KDE and Gnome make only one desktop, and it's wildly inconsistent from
>>> one major release to the next.
>>
>> That can't be true. Both are developed by HCI experts who have been
>> improving the UI and bringing in new users to Linux.
>>
>
> You've got a valid point, however, so does DFS. The difference between
> openSUSE 11.3 and 12.1 *is* the UI. And there is not much in consistency
> as he has mentioned.

What? What are you blubbering about?
You have to look real close to see any difference. Because both are at near
same KDE-version, you senile clod. How do you perceive major differences in
UIs when the version differs just by a tiny difference?

Are you Snit by another name? Totally incompetent and shamelessly lying?

[JEDIDIAH]

On 2012-04-24, Peter Köhlmann <peter-k...@t-online.de> wrote:
> GreyCloud wrote:
>
>> cc wrote:
>
>>>> KDE and Gnome make only one desktop, and it's wildly inconsistent from
>>>> one major release to the next.
>>>
>>> That can't be true. Both are developed by HCI experts who have been
>>> improving the UI and bringing in new users to Linux.
>>>
>>
>> You've got a valid point, however, so does DFS. The difference between
>> openSUSE 11.3 and 12.1 *is* the UI. And there is not much in consistency
>> as he has mentioned.
>
> What? What are you blubbering about?
> You have to look real close to see any difference. Because both are at near

He's probably referring to the bleeding edge versions of KDE and GNOME
that are supposed to be "innovation free".

[deletia]

Or he could just be totally full of it and making up things from his
nether regions. On second thought, it's probably that last option.

[JEDIDIAH]

Once again, the Lemming makes up lies to argue againsts because they
can't handle dealing with reality.

[deletia]

I am content so long as no monopolist is trying to deprive me of my liberty.

[William Poaster]

+1

--
As a computer, I find your faith in M$ technology amusing.

Most people are sheep.  
Microsoft is very effective
at fleecing the flockers.

[chrisv]

JEDIDIAH wrote:

> some lying piece of shit calling itself "GreyCloud" wrote:
>>
>> And at least I'm not a socialist prick like you are. With you clowns,
>> everything has to be free or should be shunned if it isn't.
>
> Once again, the Lemming makes up lies to argue againsts because they
>can't handle dealing with reality.
>
>[deletia]
>
> I am content so long as no monopolist is trying to deprive me of my liberty.

Yep. We want Freedom and a fair market, where people are completely
free to choose their products based-upon price and performance.

There's *nothing* wrong with writing code and selling for whatever,
whether it's a game or a word processor, as long as there is real
choice in the market.

Only a *shameless*, bald-faced *liar* like the "GreyCloud" POS, would
make the claim that he did above.

[GreyCloud]

Guffaw! Much less that you find it convenient to delete the parts that you
can't address. snip and run liar you are.

[GreyCloud]

Yeah, turd,... run and lie out your ass.
Chrisv is a POS, and a liar.

[GreyCloud]

Peter Köhlmann wrote:

> GreyCloud wrote:
>
>> cc wrote:
>
>>>> KDE and Gnome make only one desktop, and it's wildly inconsistent from
>>>> one major release to the next.
>>>
>>> That can't be true. Both are developed by HCI experts who have been
>>> improving the UI and bringing in new users to Linux.
>>>
>>
>> You've got a valid point, however, so does DFS. The difference between
>> openSUSE 11.3 and 12.1 *is* the UI. And there is not much in consistency
>> as he has mentioned.
>
> What? What are you blubbering about?

The differences in the UI.
There have been a few changes, but the overlying UI isn't nothing to brag
about in regards to consistency. Oh, they try tho.

> You have to look real close to see any difference. Because both are at
> near same KDE-version, you senile clod. How do you perceive major
> differences in UIs when the version differs just by a tiny difference?
>

Easy, by using it.

> Are you Snit by another name? Totally incompetent and shamelessly lying?

Not at all. I'm not biased like most of you guys in here are.
The best still is OpenVMS, but who can afford it?

[GreyCloud]

Show me their innovation. So far, as with the linux philosophy is to copy
others works and call it innovation.

Dr. Bjarne Stroustrup recommended a few extra changes to C++. Intel and M$
already delivered the changes and can be purchased, yet the gcc community
still yet to catch up to the new standard.

[GreyCloud]

William Poaster wrote:

> Here is a facsimile from JEDIDIAH who, on 24/4/2012 15:51, wrote:
>
>> On 2012-04-24, Peter Köhlmann <peter-k...@t-online.de> wrote:
>>> GreyCloud wrote:
>>>
>>>> cc wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> KDE and Gnome make only one desktop, and it's wildly inconsistent
>>>>>> from one major release to the next.
>>>>>
>>>>> That can't be true. Both are developed by HCI experts who have been
>>>>> improving the UI and bringing in new users to Linux.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You've got a valid point, however, so does DFS. The difference between
>>>> openSUSE 11.3 and 12.1 *is* the UI. And there is not much in
>>>> consistency as he has mentioned.
>>>
>>> What? What are you blubbering about?
>>> You have to look real close to see any difference. Because both are at
>>> near
>>
>> He's probably referring to the bleeding edge versions of KDE and
>> GNOME
>> that are supposed to be "innovation free".
>>
>> [deletia]
>>
>> Or he could just be totally full of it and making up things from his
>> nether regions. On second thought, it's probably that last option.
>
> +1
>

Show us the linux innovations.

[GreyCloud]

That is the linux community philosophy... copy others work and then give it
away. As I pointed out to Jed, Dr. Bjarne Stroustrup, the creator of C++,
made some recommendations changes to C++. MS and Intel both made those
changes and are now being sold. The changes were pretty good too. But the
gcc community is now slowly trying to catch up to these changes, if they
even include all the changes. One example is the nullptr. A google on the
nullptr is rather revealing in regards to the old NULL definition.

[DFS]

They'll get a round tuit someday.

Nobody's getting paid, nobody has a boss to answer to, or a timeline.
The hobbyware will be updated when someone feels damn good and ready.

[GreyCloud]

I wonder if Apple is still funding any new research work for them to do?

[Peter Köhlmann]

Actually, GCC provides more of the new standard than the MS compilers do

> Nobody's getting paid, nobody has a boss to answer to, or a timeline.
> The hobbyware will be updated when someone feels damn good and ready.

Seems someone felt damn good and ready quite some time ago

[William Poaster]

Seems like GreyClod is confusing Linux with M$ philosophy.

>>> Dr. Bjarne Stroustrup recommended a few extra changes to C++. Intel and
>>> M$ already delivered the changes and can be purchased, yet the gcc
>>> community still yet to catch up to the new standard.
>>
>>
>> They'll get a round tuit someday.
>
> Actually, GCC provides more of the new standard than the MS compilers do
>
>> Nobody's getting paid, nobody has a boss to answer to, or a timeline.
>> The hobbyware will be updated when someone feels damn good and ready.
>
> Seems someone felt damn good and ready quite some time ago

--
As they say at Microsoft - 'What do you want to reinstall today ?'.

[Chris Ahlstrom]

Peter Köhlmann wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

I don't get it. I'd expect DFS to me sneering about one of the prime
(but non-commercial) C/C++ compilers. But GreyCLoud, who supposedly
is experienced in UNIX?

A number of platforms rely on gcc and other open-source compilers for
their existence, but all these clowns can do is sneer at it?

http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/libstdc++/manual/status.html#status.iso.tr1

--
To create a new standard, it takes something that's not just a little bit
different; it takes something that's really new and really captures people's
imagination -- and the Macintosh, of all the machines I've ever seen, is the
only one that meets that standard.
-- Bill Gates, at a conference on the Macintosh (1984).
Quicktime clip at osdata.com

[GreyCloud]

Yet it doesn't supply nullptr, which is part of the standard.
Nor does it support a few other features. And reading what gcc 4.7 is at,
it isn't ready yet.

>> Nobody's getting paid, nobody has a boss to answer to, or a timeline.
>> The hobbyware will be updated when someone feels damn good and ready.
>

> Seems someone felt damn good and ready quite some time ago.

In their own minds, but not according to the standards.
They are late this time.

[GreyCloud]

Seems like dumb willie is very confused about a great many things.
Getting senile old boy?

[GreyCloud]

Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> Peter Köhlmann wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> DFS wrote:
>>> On 4/24/2012 1:11 PM, GreyCloud wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dr. Bjarne Stroustrup recommended a few extra changes to C++. Intel
>>>> and M$ already delivered the changes and can be purchased, yet the gcc
>>>> community still yet to catch up to the new standard.
>>>
>>> They'll get a round tuit someday.
>>
>> Actually, GCC provides more of the new standard than the MS compilers do
>>
>>> Nobody's getting paid, nobody has a boss to answer to, or a timeline.
>>> The hobbyware will be updated when someone feels damn good and ready.
>>
>> Seems someone felt damn good and ready quite some time ago
>
> I don't get it. I'd expect DFS to me sneering about one of the prime
> (but non-commercial) C/C++ compilers. But GreyCLoud, who supposedly
> is experienced in UNIX?
>

Yes, just like Apple uses gcc.

> A number of platforms rely on gcc and other open-source compilers for
> their existence, but all these clowns can do is sneer at it?
>
>
http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/libstdc++/manual/status.html#status.iso.tr1
>

Now go read Dr. Stroustrups recommendations for the new standard on his
website.
And check out where gcc 4.7 is at. And then google for nullptr which still
isn't in g++.

[chrisv]

> Dumfsck wrote:
>>
>> Nobody's getting paid, nobody has a boss to answer to, or a timeline.

All *shameless* Dumfsck lies, of course. (Did "Ezekiel" notice?)

*Many* are getting paid, have timelines, etc.

But an even better point is that Free software routinely out-classes
the best efforts of the proprietary software. GNU/Linux compared to
Windows, for example. If it weren't for the momentum and the apps
advantage and the M$ dirty-dealing, Windwoes would be getting crushed
by its superior competition.

[Foster]

On Wed, 25 Apr 2012 07:53:36 -0500, chrisv wrote:

>> Dumfsck wrote:
>>>
>>> Nobody's getting paid, nobody has a boss to answer to, or a timeline.
>
> All *shameless* Dumfsck lies, of course. (Did "Ezekiel" notice?)
>
> *Many* are getting paid, have timelines, etc.

Who who is paying you to act like an idiot in COLA, chrisv = turd?

> But an even better point is that Free software routinely out-classes
> the best efforts of the proprietary software. GNU/Linux compared to
> Windows, for example. If it weren't for the momentum and the apps
> advantage and the M$ dirty-dealing, Windwoes would be getting crushed
> by its superior competition.

If it weren't for the crappy 3rd rate applications, Linux might
actually stand a chance against Microsoft and Apple for desktop
market share.

[DFS]

On 4/25/2012 8:53 AM, chrisv wrote:
>> Dumfsck wrote:
>>>
>>> Nobody's getting paid, nobody has a boss to answer to, or a timeline.
>
> All *shameless* Dumfsck lies, of course. (Did "Ezekiel" notice?)
>
> *Many* are getting paid, have timelines, etc.

Which gcc developers are those, turd? Prove it.

> But an even better point is that Free software routinely out-classes
> the best efforts of the proprietary software. GNU/Linux compared to
> Windows, for example.

heh! A disjointed, wretched pile of crap (pick ANY distro) vs a smooth
stable predictable experience.

The world will pass on Linux - at any price.

> If it weren't for the momentum and the apps
> advantage and the M$ dirty-dealing, Windwoes would be getting crushed
> by its superior competition.

Keep hope alive!

Meanwhile, you just continue to help MS as much as possible. I'm sure
they appreciate it.

[Bob Hauck]

On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 19:33:45 -0600, GreyCloud <mi...@cumulus.com> wrote:
> Peter Köhlmann wrote:

>> Actually, GCC provides more of the new standard than the MS compilers
>> do
>>
>
> Yet it doesn't supply nullptr, which is part of the standard.

Seriously? THAT is the example you pick? You have no clue at all what
you are talking about and must be just Googling shit up for the sake of
being a dick.

<flamebait>

That feature was apparently added to "fix" the "infamous" and "broken"
use of 0 or NULL pointer. One might ask, if it was so broken then WHY
DID IT TAKE 20 YEARS TO FIX IT?

Because there was so much other breakage to fix first, that's why. And
it wasn't really broken anyway, unless you are an idiot or want to dick
around with re-defining C++ as a "managed" language.

On the scale of the totality of suckage that is C++, that is the most
minor of nits. And now we're supposed to switch to this shiny new thing
that fixes problems we never knew we had, and breaks any code that might
have had a variable named "nullptr" laying around. WTF?

C++ is a language lawyer playground designed by lunatics. The rest of us
have work to do and use a sensible language like Java or Python or C# or
even plain old C, or really almost any other language ever invented, and
forget about all the idiocy that is embodied in C++.

</flamebait>

--
Bob Hauck

[Bob Hauck]

On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 19:36:05 -0600, GreyCloud <mi...@cumulus.com> wrote:

> http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/libstdc++/manual/status.html#status.iso.tr1
>>
>
> Now go read Dr. Stroustrups recommendations for the new standard on his
> website.

Over the years I have become convinced that Dr. Stroustrup is either a
lunatic who likes tormenting programmers, or a charlatan.


--
Bob Hauck

[chrisv]

Bob Hauck wrote:

> some piece of shit calling itself GreyCloud wrote:
>>
>> Peter Köhlmann wrote:
>>>
>>> Actually, GCC provides more of the new standard than the MS compilers
>>> do
>>
>> Yet it doesn't supply nullptr, which is part of the standard.
>
>Seriously? THAT is the example you pick? You have no clue at all what
>you are talking about and must be just Googling shit up for the sake of
>being a dick.

That's what trolling assholes like "GreyCloud" do.

That, and lie their asses off to attack their betters.

--
"At least they are sane and not part of some cult." - "GreyCloud",
attacking FOSS advocates while defending filthy trolls.

[Peter Köhlmann]

Don't be so harsh on C++. It actually is a nice language.
I prefer it to any other programming language by quite some margin

[chrisv]

Peter Köhlmann wrote:

>Don't be so harsh on C++. It actually is a nice language.
>I prefer it to any other programming language by quite some margin

"Flatfish" might be along to ridicule us for not deciding on one "best
language".

--
"400+ different distros and the perspective of device manufacturers
who don't have the resources to support 100's of distros and dozens of
different package managers." - trolling fsckwit "Ezekiel"

[Chris Ahlstrom]

Peter Köhlmann wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> Bob Hauck wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 19:33:45 -0600, GreyCloud <mi...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>>> Peter Köhlmann wrote:
>>
>>>> Actually, GCC provides more of the new standard than the MS compilers
>>>> do
>>>
>>> Yet it doesn't supply nullptr, which is part of the standard.

You're full of shit, Old Goat:

/usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/unique_ptr.h: if (__p != nullptr)

>> Seriously? THAT is the example you pick? You have no clue at all what
>> you are talking about and must be just Googling shit up for the sake of
>> being a dick.
>>
>> <flamebait>
>>
>> That feature was apparently added to "fix" the "infamous" and "broken"
>> use of 0 or NULL pointer. One might ask, if it was so broken then WHY
>> DID IT TAKE 20 YEARS TO FIX IT?
>>
>> Because there was so much other breakage to fix first, that's why. And
>> it wasn't really broken anyway, unless you are an idiot or want to dick
>> around with re-defining C++ as a "managed" language.
>>
>> On the scale of the totality of suckage that is C++, that is the most
>> minor of nits. And now we're supposed to switch to this shiny new thing
>> that fixes problems we never knew we had, and breaks any code that might
>> have had a variable named "nullptr" laying around. WTF?
>>
>> C++ is a language lawyer playground designed by lunatics. The rest of us
>> have work to do and use a sensible language like Java or Python or C# or
>> even plain old C, or really almost any other language ever invented, and
>> forget about all the idiocy that is embodied in C++.
>>
>> </flamebait>
>
> Don't be so harsh on C++. It actually is a nice language.
> I prefer it to any other programming language by quite some margin

Same here. It is by far my favorite language. Add Boost to the mix,
and you can do just about anything those other languages can do, even
if in some cases the notation is more stilted than you'd find in Python.

As far as language law goes, that *control* is one reason I prefer C++
to the other languages Bob mentions, which tend to churn out major
versions every few years, deprecating a lot of code.

With C++, you have a number of industry leaders arguing back and forth
and weeding out the most obvious brain-farts.

--
"When it comes to Linux, you are a clearly a charlatan and a hypocrite.
For somebody who does not even use Ubuntu and has on numerous occasions,
even in postings to this newsgroup, tried to discredit it, proves that
your postings in this newsgroup are only for the purpose of trolling
as you have nothing better to do to occupy your time."
-- J G Miller - alt.os.linux.ubuntu <i9et35$g38$1...@news.eternal-september.org>

[Foster]

On Wed, 25 Apr 2012 11:45:49 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> Peter Köhlmann wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> Bob Hauck wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 19:33:45 -0600, GreyCloud <mi...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>>>> Peter Köhlmann wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Actually, GCC provides more of the new standard than the MS compilers
>>>>> do
>>>>
>>>> Yet it doesn't supply nullptr, which is part of the standard.
>
> You're full of shit, Old Goat:
>
> /usr/include/c++/4.6/bits/unique_ptr.h: if (__p != nullptr)
>

Look at that, the Creep-In-A-Box, Chris Ahlstrom, the QA person
knows how to use Google.....

http://tinyurl.com/8632xul

Give it up Ahlstrom.
Your constant sucking up is getting embarrassing.

[chrisv]

>--
>"When it comes to Linux, you are a clearly a charlatan and a hypocrite.
>For somebody who does not even use Ubuntu and has on numerous occasions,
>even in postings to this newsgroup, tried to discredit it, proves that
>your postings in this newsgroup are only for the purpose of trolling
>as you have nothing better to do to occupy your time."
> -- J G Miller - alt.os.linux.ubuntu <i9et35$g38$1...@news.eternal-september.org>

Gee, that wasn't aimed at "Hadron", was it? "Hadron" is a "true Linux
advocate" who wants "to see it succeed"!

--
"(A Ubuntu laptop) will fail because the laptop BUYING community
generally want Windows as thats what their SOFTWARE runs on and their
phones sync to and what they use at work." - "True Linux advocate"
Hadron Quark

[Chris Ahlstrom]

Bob Hauck wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

Not me. He's a breath of fresh air compared to language hype-meisters
like James Gosling or Microsoft.

And his 3rd edition of "The C++ Programming Language" is not only a good
technical book, but in parts is a joy to read.

Charlatan? You're not a nym-stealing Flounder, are you?

--
Also note TomB playing silly word games "IT does not work". What is
"IT"? I never said "it" or a single plug in does not work, TomB? Prove
otherwise or forever be known as another mealy mouther liar.
I will snip the rest because that game in that sentence tells me all I
need. I use Gimp day in day out and am well aware of its strengths, not
so aware of its weaknesses (other than a crap UI)
But, Snit, if you want to be sure google what I have always said about
Gimp : perfect for most people. Offices wont use it because in a company
they want, normally, the same SW from top to bottom. And that is, as we
all know, Photoshop or the likes of Photoshop Elements. Sad but true.
Make an experiment : go to an #irc channel. Compare the amount of people
helping other with PS or with Gimp.
-- "Hadron" <iesa7m$ik0$2...@news.eternal-september.org>

[Rex Ballard]

On Friday, April 20, 2012 8:34:35 AM UTC-4, DFS wrote:
> "Pros: A real competitor introducing an original smartphone OS as
> opposed to the copy-machine, half-baked garbage that is Android.

And we'll all go to heaven, when the next release comes out.

How many times has Microsoft tried to enter the SmartPhone market?
How many times has Microsoft FAILED in the SmartPhone market?

How are actual sales doing these days?

> Cons: None when compared to Android.

But you said the same thing about
Windows 7 mobile
Windows 7 Mobile
WinCE


And for that matter:

Microsoft told us Windows 3.1 was Better than Slackware Linux - it wasn't
Microsoft told us Windows NT would be better than Solaris - it wasn't
Microsoft told us NT 4.0 would be better than Red Hat 4.0 or 4.1 - it wasn't
Microsoft told us XP would be better than SUSE or RHEL - it wasn't
Microsfot told us Windows server would put an end to Linux and Unix servers - it didn't
Microsoft told us Vista would be better than any current version of Linux or Android - it wasn't
Microsoft told us Windows 7 would be better than Android - it wasn't
Microsoft told us Windows 7 would be a boon to Netbooks - it wasn't

And yet you STILL believe EVERYTHING Microsoft tells you.


> Summary: I hope Microsoft makes serious headway and displaces the
> wannabe competitors out of the way.

Why? So they can expand their monopoly and extortion tactics into the REST of the electronic device market?

Ballmer should continue to lead Microsoft into the Games market.
Businesses don't like Windows that much anymore.

> A serious name brand and support
> (hopefully) to back it up.

LOL

> I have the highest hope that they will pull it off.

I hope that Linux blows Microsoft off the PC Desktop market.
It hasn't happened yet - 30 years of Microsoft Strong-arms is hard to beat.

Microsoft hasn't been able to compete effectively anywhere BUT the traditional Personal Computer. And in the past 10 years has done more harm than good in that market.

They killed the Netbook.
They took the profit out of Laptops
They killed the desktop
They flopped in Servers.

> They most likely will not come close to iOS but we do need
> serious innovation from companies that do real stuff instead of Google's
> approach to hijack the OS, and stuff ads down everyone's throats while
> trying to sell your data.

Google was smart. They didn't try to "lock out" third party developers. Quite the opposite, they encouraged anyone to write apps for Google, and eliminated all barriers to entry. As a result, I have thousands of apps to choose from in any category, and even the free ones are pretty good.

Many of the apps are access to other services, which are where the vendors make the real money. It increases customer loyalty and wins new customers who couldn't be reached other ways.

Even the games are "pay as you play".

> Go Microsoft!"

Go away Microsoft!

We're tired of your buggy virus spreading slopware sold through fraud, extortion, blackmail, sabotage, and obstruction of justice.

I'm tired of having to work hundreds of hours of unpaid overtime because some Windows box has failed - either mine or a fellow team members - and I still have a job to do.

> http://reviews.cnet.com/cell-phones/nokia-lumia-900-black/4864-6454_7-35117988-11.html?ord=ratingValue+asc&tag=userReviews;summaryList


Another Microsoft shill singing the praises of Microsoft's latest shovel-ware, claiming that it's the greatest thing since - Windows!!

Seriously - haven't we put up with Microsoft Long enough!

[Foster]

On Wed, 25 Apr 2012 10:52:19 -0500, chrisv wrote:


> Gee, that wasn't aimed at "Hadron", was it? "Hadron" is a "true Linux
> advocate" who wants "to see it succeed"!

We would all like to see Linux, desktop Linux, succeed.

Unfortunately, this is probably never going to happen and for a
variety of reasons one of which is the horrible, dreadful, nasty
Linux community.
And you're a card carrying member, chrisv=turd.

[Chris Ahlstrom]

Rex Ballard wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Friday, April 20, 2012 8:34:35 AM UTC-4, DFS wrote:
>

> <same old derisive bullshit>

>
> Another Microsoft shill singing the praises of Microsoft's latest
> shovel-ware, claiming that it's the greatest thing since - Windows!!
>
> Seriously - haven't we put up with Microsoft Long enough!

Arrr, we have endless tolerance for the monopolist.

--
Since when has the world of computer software design been about what people
want? This is a simple question of evolution. The day is quickly coming when
every knee will bow down to a silicon fist, and you will all beg your binary
gods for mercy.
-- Bill Gates

[JEDIDIAH]

On 2012-04-25, Foster <frankf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Apr 2012 10:52:19 -0500, chrisv wrote:
>
>
>> Gee, that wasn't aimed at "Hadron", was it? "Hadron" is a "true Linux
>> advocate" who wants "to see it succeed"!
>
> We would all like to see Linux, desktop Linux, succeed.

No you wouldn't.

You're just here to troll and set puppies on fire.

[hypocrisy deleted]

--
Linux: because everyone should get to drink the beer of their |||
choice and not merely be limited to pretensious imports or hard cider. / | \

[JEDIDIAH]

On 2012-04-24, GreyCloud <mi...@cumulus.com> wrote:
> JEDIDIAH wrote:
>
>> On 2012-04-24, Peter Köhlmann <peter-k...@t-online.de> wrote:
>>> GreyCloud wrote:
>>>
>>>> cc wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> KDE and Gnome make only one desktop, and it's wildly inconsistent from
>>>>>> one major release to the next.
>>>>>
>>>>> That can't be true. Both are developed by HCI experts who have been
>>>>> improving the UI and bringing in new users to Linux.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You've got a valid point, however, so does DFS. The difference between
>>>> openSUSE 11.3 and 12.1 *is* the UI. And there is not much in
>>>> consistency as he has mentioned.
>>>
>>> What? What are you blubbering about?
>>> You have to look real close to see any difference. Because both are at
>>> near
>>
>> He's probably referring to the bleeding edge versions of KDE and GNOME
>> that are supposed to be "innovation free".
>>
>> [deletia]
>>
>> Or he could just be totally full of it and making up things from his
>> nether regions. On second thought, it's probably that last option.
>>
> Show me their innovation. So far, as with the linux philosophy is to copy
> others works and call it innovation.

Anyone with an academic computer science background doesn't engage in this
mindless "innovation" nonsense. We know better than that.

[JEDIDIAH]

On 2012-04-24, GreyCloud <mi...@cumulus.com> wrote:
> JEDIDIAH wrote:
>

>> On 2012-04-23, GreyCloud <mi...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>>> JEDIDIAH wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2012-04-23, GreyCloud <mi...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>>>>> JEDIDIAH wrote:
>>>>>

>>>>>> On 2012-04-21, OldGoat <oa...@farmerbrowns.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 4/20/2012 3:51 PM, JEDIDIAH wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2012-04-20, OldGoat<oa...@farmerbrowns.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 4/20/2012 2:46 PM, JEDIDIAH wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2012-04-20, DFS<nos...@dfs.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/20/2012 2:04 PM, Bob Hauck wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 11:55:51 -0400,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Foster<frankf...@yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 20 Apr 2012 08:34:35 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>>>>>> [deletia]
>>>>>>>>>> If anything, the Linux interfaces are more stable.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've had a few issues about Linux UI stability.
>>>>>>>>> I've had Yast lock up with a message window saying it was
>>>>>>>>> unresponsive.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You're pretty retarded for someone that claims to be a VMS
>>>>>>>> fanboy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Guffaw!!! Put the cap back on the glue, gluehead.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not a gluehead, I am a former VMS user.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you were, you should have had your head examined by now.
>>>>>
>>>>>> It's too bad the market is filled with small minded people like
>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Guffaw!!! Your tin-foil hat being stuffed on so tight is making you
>>>>> small in many ways.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not a Fascist prick like you that can't stand choice in the
>>>> market place.
>>>
>>> Hah! I've said it before and I'll say it again. The whole computer
>>> market
>>> has stagnated. So why isn't linux innovating new concepts?
>>> Right now, not much is new or exciting under the sun.
>>> And at least I'm not a socialist prick like you are. With you clowns,
>>> everything has to be free or should be shunned if it isn't.
>>
>> Once again, the Lemming makes up lies to argue againsts because they
>> can't handle dealing with reality.
>>
>> [deletia]
>>
>> I am content so long as no monopolist is trying to deprive me of my
>> liberty.
>>
>
> Guffaw! Much less that you find it convenient to delete the parts that you

You are a shameless liar.

What's to address?

[Bob Hauck]

On Wed, 25 Apr 2012 11:58:22 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom <ahls...@xzoozy.com> wrote:
> Bob Hauck wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 19:36:05 -0600, GreyCloud <mi...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>>
>>> http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/libstdc++/manual/status.html#status.iso.tr1
>>>
>>> Now go read Dr. Stroustrups recommendations for the new standard on his
>>> website.
>>
>> Over the years I have become convinced that Dr. Stroustrup is either a
>> lunatic who likes tormenting programmers, or a charlatan.
>
> Not me. He's a breath of fresh air compared to language hype-meisters
> like James Gosling or Microsoft.
>
> And his 3rd edition of "The C++ Programming Language" is not only a good
> technical book, but in parts is a joy to read.
>
> Charlatan? You're not a nym-stealing Flounder, are you?

No, I'm not Flounder. I've done enough C++ programming to know that I
dislike it. Stroustroup is a master at convincing people that a patch on
a patch on a compromise is technical genius.

Ada was actually designed by a government commmitte and it came out a
hell of a lot cleaner.

Stroustroup should be sent to Hell for template metaprogramming alone,
never mind all the other sins of C++.


--
Bob Hauck

[OldGoat]

Your stupidity and dishonesty.

[Foster]

On Wed, 25 Apr 2012 12:42:48 -0400, Bob Hauck wrote:

> On Wed, 25 Apr 2012 11:58:22 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom <ahls...@xzoozy.com> wrote:
>> Bob Hauck wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>
>>> On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 19:36:05 -0600, GreyCloud <mi...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/libstdc++/manual/status.html#status.iso.tr1
>>>>
>>>> Now go read Dr. Stroustrups recommendations for the new standard on his
>>>> website.
>>>
>>> Over the years I have become convinced that Dr. Stroustrup is either a
>>> lunatic who likes tormenting programmers, or a charlatan.
>>
>> Not me. He's a breath of fresh air compared to language hype-meisters
>> like James Gosling or Microsoft.
>>
>> And his 3rd edition of "The C++ Programming Language" is not only a good
>> technical book, but in parts is a joy to read.
>>
>> Charlatan? You're not a nym-stealing Flounder, are you?
>
> No, I'm not Flounder.

Chris Ahlstrom cannot fathom the idea that anyone in COLA would go
against the herd.
It just throws him completely off kilter.

So on the rare occasions it happens, like this one for example, he
will immediately lash out accusing the person of being an imposter.

Ask greycloud, he'll tell you all about it.

[OldGoat]

Then you should read his book on programming practices.
What he describes by the C++ language and what he means seems to be two
different animals. I prefer C++ over Objective-C tho. You should
peruse over Objective-C to see what I mean.

[OldGoat]

On 4/25/2012 9:58 AM, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> Bob Hauck wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 19:36:05 -0600, GreyCloud<mi...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>>
>>> http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/libstdc++/manual/status.html#status.iso.tr1
>>>
>>> Now go read Dr. Stroustrups recommendations for the new standard on his
>>> website.
>>
>> Over the years I have become convinced that Dr. Stroustrup is either a
>> lunatic who likes tormenting programmers, or a charlatan.
>
> Not me. He's a breath of fresh air compared to language hype-meisters
> like James Gosling or Microsoft.
>

Exactly. Stroustrups explanation of why you use references are great
and clear.

[Foster]

On Wed, 25 Apr 2012 12:07:02 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> Rex Ballard wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On Friday, April 20, 2012 8:34:35 AM UTC-4, DFS wrote:
>>
>> <same old derisive bullshit>
>>
>> Another Microsoft shill singing the praises of Microsoft's latest
>> shovel-ware, claiming that it's the greatest thing since - Windows!!
>>
>> Seriously - haven't we put up with Microsoft Long enough!
>
> Arrr, we have endless tolerance for the monopolist.

You are starting to sound like [Homer], Chris Ahlstrom.
Looking for a new master again?

[OldGoat]

On 4/25/2012 7:23 AM, Bob Hauck wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 19:33:45 -0600, GreyCloud<mi...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>> Peter Köhlmann wrote:
>
>>> Actually, GCC provides more of the new standard than the MS compilers
>>> do
>>>
>>
>> Yet it doesn't supply nullptr, which is part of the standard.
>
> Seriously? THAT is the example you pick? You have no clue at all what
> you are talking about and must be just Googling shit up for the sake of
> being a dick.
>

You should then google on nullptr to see what I'm talking about first.
NULL can be interpreted as an int or a char... and can cause problems.
nullptr clearly eliminates this issue.
And that is for starters.

> <flamebait>
>
> That feature was apparently added to "fix" the "infamous" and "broken"
> use of 0 or NULL pointer. One might ask, if it was so broken then WHY
> DID IT TAKE 20 YEARS TO FIX IT?
>

Gee, I don't know. Maybe the genius of Dr. Stroustrups recommendations
on the next standard fixes it?

> Because there was so much other breakage to fix first, that's why. And
> it wasn't really broken anyway, unless you are an idiot or want to dick
> around with re-defining C++ as a "managed" language.
>
> On the scale of the totality of suckage that is C++, that is the most
> minor of nits. And now we're supposed to switch to this shiny new thing
> that fixes problems we never knew we had, and breaks any code that might
> have had a variable named "nullptr" laying around. WTF?
>
> C++ is a language lawyer playground designed by lunatics. The rest of us
> have work to do and use a sensible language like Java or Python or C# or
> even plain old C, or really almost any other language ever invented, and
> forget about all the idiocy that is embodied in C++.
>
> </flamebait>
>

Guffaw!! You gotta be kidding me.
Now I'm waiting for the rest to respond to your lunacy.

[OldGoat]

On 4/25/2012 8:34 AM, chrisv wrote:
> Bob Hauck wrote:
>
>> some piece of shit calling itself GreyCloud wrote:
>>>
>>> Peter Köhlmann wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Actually, GCC provides more of the new standard than the MS compilers
>>>> do
>>>
>>> Yet it doesn't supply nullptr, which is part of the standard.
>>
>> Seriously? THAT is the example you pick? You have no clue at all what
>> you are talking about and must be just Googling shit up for the sake of
>> being a dick.
>
> That's what trolling assholes like "GreyCloud" do.
>
> That, and lie their asses off to attack their betters.
>

I'm waiting, you broken dildo, to respond in a technical manner.
But you can't.

[OldGoat]

It is a good language. Can anybody find a better one?

[OldGoat]

On 4/25/2012 9:06 AM, chrisv wrote:
> Peter Köhlmann wrote:
>
>> Don't be so harsh on C++. It actually is a nice language.
>> I prefer it to any other programming language by quite some margin
>
> "Flatfish" might be along to ridicule us for not deciding on one "best
> language".
>

Lack of technical content noted.

[OldGoat]

Then how come under 4.6 in trying to compile in code "int p = nullptr;"
errs out saying that nullptr is undefined?

So much for your technical expertise.

[Foster]

He Googled it, like I shouwed.

[cc]

On Wednesday, April 25, 2012 9:25:09 AM UTC-4, Bob Hauck wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 19:36:05 -0600, GreyCloud <mi...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>
> > http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/libstdc++/manual/status.html#status.iso.tr1
> >>
> >
> > Now go read Dr. Stroustrups recommendations for the new standard on his
> > website.
>
> Over the years I have become convinced that Dr. Stroustrup is either a
> lunatic who likes tormenting programmers, or a charlatan.
>
>

Haha, extreme but funny. Standard C++ has become a mass of shit, but you don't have to use everything in the standard. It's not like anything gets taken out.

--
"While pregnant for me, my mom continued to drink, at least for the 1st trimester if not more." - Snit

[Chris Ahlstrom]

Bob Hauck wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Wed, 25 Apr 2012 11:58:22 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom <ahls...@xzoozy.com> wrote:
>> Bob Hauck wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>
>>> On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 19:36:05 -0600, GreyCloud <mi...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/libstdc++/manual/status.html#status.iso.tr1
>>>>
>>>> Now go read Dr. Stroustrups recommendations for the new standard on his
>>>> website.
>>>
>>> Over the years I have become convinced that Dr. Stroustrup is either a
>>> lunatic who likes tormenting programmers, or a charlatan.
>>
>> Not me. He's a breath of fresh air compared to language hype-meisters
>> like James Gosling or Microsoft.
>>
>> And his 3rd edition of "The C++ Programming Language" is not only a good
>> technical book, but in parts is a joy to read.
>>
>> Charlatan? You're not a nym-stealing Flounder, are you?
>
> No, I'm not Flounder. I've done enough C++ programming to know that I
> dislike it. Stroustroup is a master at convincing people that a patch on
> a patch on a compromise is technical genius.

Whatever. Some people like one language, some people like another
language.

Each language has its own goals and its areas of
superiority/inferiority.

> Ada was actually designed by a government commmitte and it came out a
> hell of a lot cleaner.

Could be true.

So why is C++ more popular?

> Stroustroup should be sent to Hell for template metaprogramming alone,
> never mind all the other sins of C++.

Tell that to Andrei Alexandrescu and Scott Meyers. If you're right,
then Bjarne already made his own Hell.

:-D

--
I have drifted away from thinking about these philanthropic things. And it
was only as the wealth got large enough and Melinda and I had talked about
the view that that wealth wasn’t something that would be good to just pass
to the children.
-- Bill Gates

[Torre Starnes]

You're just so 1337 Ahlstrom.
So 1337.

You're my hero.
Really you are.

<Sarcasm off>

[Bob Hauck]

On Wed, 25 Apr 2012 11:30:58 -0600, OldGoat <oa...@farmerbrowns.com> wrote:
> On 4/25/2012 7:23 AM, Bob Hauck wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 19:33:45 -0600, GreyCloud<mi...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>>> Peter Köhlmann wrote:
>>
>>>> Actually, GCC provides more of the new standard than the MS compilers
>>>> do
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yet it doesn't supply nullptr, which is part of the standard.
>>
>> Seriously? THAT is the example you pick? You have no clue at all what
>> you are talking about and must be just Googling shit up for the sake of
>> being a dick.
>>
>
> You should then google on nullptr to see what I'm talking about first.
> NULL can be interpreted as an int or a char... and can cause problems.

Except that it hardly ever does. There are much bigger fish to fry,
which is why this went unfixed for 20-some years.

C++ programmers aren't supposed to use pointers anyway. References are
the Right Thing. Which explains why new returns a pointer rather than a
reference right? Huh?

There's nothing like C++ for consistency!

>> <flamebait>
>>
>> That feature was apparently added to "fix" the "infamous" and "broken"
>> use of 0 or NULL pointer. One might ask, if it was so broken then WHY
>> DID IT TAKE 20 YEARS TO FIX IT?
>
> Gee, I don't know. Maybe the genius of Dr. Stroustrups recommendations
> on the next standard fixes it?

But NULL (actually, C++ people are supposed to use just 0 because who
the hell cares why) has been in the language since the it was just C.
Overloading has also been around since the beginning. Hence if this was
such a serious problem it would have been fixed long ago.

This is just another case of thinking that "type safety" solves all
problems. Or at least more than it actually does solve.

>> Because there was so much other breakage to fix first, that's why. And
>> it wasn't really broken anyway, unless you are an idiot or want to dick
>> around with re-defining C++ as a "managed" language.
>>
>> On the scale of the totality of suckage that is C++, that is the most
>> minor of nits. And now we're supposed to switch to this shiny new thing
>> that fixes problems we never knew we had, and breaks any code that might
>> have had a variable named "nullptr" laying around. WTF?
>>
>> C++ is a language lawyer playground designed by lunatics. The rest of us
>> have work to do and use a sensible language like Java or Python or C# or
>> even plain old C, or really almost any other language ever invented, and
>> forget about all the idiocy that is embodied in C++.
>>
>> </flamebait>
>
> Guffaw!! You gotta be kidding me.
> Now I'm waiting for the rest to respond to your lunacy.

I use C++ all the time. I think I am well aware of its myriad problems.
I'm not the only one who dislikes it. Linus made the right decision in
keeping the kernel as plain C.


--
Bob Hauck

[Bob Hauck]

On Wed, 25 Apr 2012 13:53:45 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom <ahls...@xzoozy.com> wrote:
> Bob Hauck wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On Wed, 25 Apr 2012 11:58:22 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom <ahls...@xzoozy.com> wrote:
>>> Bob Hauck wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 19:36:05 -0600, GreyCloud <mi...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/libstdc++/manual/status.html#status.iso.tr1
>>>>>
>>>>> Now go read Dr. Stroustrups recommendations for the new standard on his
>>>>> website.
>>>>
>>>> Over the years I have become convinced that Dr. Stroustrup is either a
>>>> lunatic who likes tormenting programmers, or a charlatan.
>>>
>>> Not me. He's a breath of fresh air compared to language hype-meisters
>>> like James Gosling or Microsoft.
>>>
>>> And his 3rd edition of "The C++ Programming Language" is not only a good
>>> technical book, but in parts is a joy to read.
>>>
>>> Charlatan? You're not a nym-stealing Flounder, are you?
>>
>> No, I'm not Flounder. I've done enough C++ programming to know that I
>> dislike it. Stroustroup is a master at convincing people that a patch on
>> a patch on a compromise is technical genius.
>
> Whatever. Some people like one language, some people like another
> language.
>
> Each language has its own goals and its areas of
> superiority/inferiority.

There aren't many jobs where I think C++ is the right choice. It is
often the only practical choice for non-technical reasons.

>> Ada was actually designed by a government commmitte and it came out a
>> hell of a lot cleaner.
>
> Could be true.
>
> So why is C++ more popular?

Better marketing. Being derived from C made unsophisticated people think
it would be easy to retread C programmers as C++ programmers. In truth
they are different languages. The real C++ programmer isn't supposed to
use C arrays or stdio or macros. Even pointers are to be avoided if you
can use a reference.

So I'm not sure what good the C part does other than for marketing. It
isn't even really all that compatible with ANSI C any more.

>> Stroustroup should be sent to Hell for template metaprogramming alone,
>> never mind all the other sins of C++.
>
> Tell that to Andrei Alexandrescu and Scott Meyers. If you're right,
> then Bjarne already made his own Hell.

Scott Meyers' "Effective C++" book is about 50% "how not to shoot
yourself in the foot with feature X". And C++ has a lot of features
that will shoot your foot. More than C even.


--
Bob Hauck

[Bob Hauck]

On Wed, 25 Apr 2012 11:25:55 -0600, OldGoat <oa...@farmerbrowns.com> wrote:
> On 4/25/2012 7:25 AM, Bob Hauck wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 19:36:05 -0600, GreyCloud<mi...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>>
>>> http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/libstdc++/manual/status.html#status.iso.tr1
>>>>
>>>
>>> Now go read Dr. Stroustrups recommendations for the new standard on his
>>> website.
>>
>> Over the years I have become convinced that Dr. Stroustrup is either a
>> lunatic who likes tormenting programmers, or a charlatan.
>>
> Then you should read his book on programming practices.

I've read a couple of his books, thanks.

I isn't that I don't use or know how to use C++, it is that I don't like
it. I think it is a language that is very hard to use correctly. It is
way too complicated and the various features conflict with each other in
complex and hard to debug ways.

> What he describes by the C++ language and what he means seems to be
> two different animals. I prefer C++ over Objective-C tho. You should
> peruse over Objective-C to see what I mean.

Or I could just avoid both of them and get some work done.

I think Objective C might actually have come first, but I don't remember
now and am too lazy to look it up.


--
Bob Hauck

[Bob Hauck]

I don't have GCC 4.6 handy right now, but nullptr is a *pointer*, not an
integer:

int *p = nullptr;


--
Bob Hauck

[Bob Hauck]

On Wed, 25 Apr 2012 13:24:42 -0400, Foster <frankf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Apr 2012 12:42:48 -0400, Bob Hauck wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 25 Apr 2012 11:58:22 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom <ahls...@xzoozy.com> wrote:
>>> Bob Hauck wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 19:36:05 -0600, GreyCloud <mi...@cumulus.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/libstdc++/manual/status.html#status.iso.tr1
>>>>>
>>>>> Now go read Dr. Stroustrups recommendations for the new standard on his
>>>>> website.
>>>>
>>>> Over the years I have become convinced that Dr. Stroustrup is either a
>>>> lunatic who likes tormenting programmers, or a charlatan.
>>>
>>> Not me. He's a breath of fresh air compared to language hype-meisters
>>> like James Gosling or Microsoft.
>>>
>>> And his 3rd edition of "The C++ Programming Language" is not only a good
>>> technical book, but in parts is a joy to read.
>>>
>>> Charlatan? You're not a nym-stealing Flounder, are you?
>>
>> No, I'm not Flounder.
>
> Chris Ahlstrom cannot fathom the idea that anyone in COLA would go
> against the herd.

Hating on C++ goes against a number of herds. Not that you'd know.

> It just throws him completely off kilter.
>
> So on the rare occasions it happens, like this one for example, he
> will immediately lash out accusing the person of being an imposter.

I'm pretty sure that was tongue in cheek.

> Ask greycloud, he'll tell you all about it.

If he can remember.


--
Bob Hauck

[chrisv]

Bob Hauck wrote:

>> Ask greycloud, he'll tell you all about it.
>
>If he can remember.

"GreyCloud" and "Flatfish" can both tell you all about how lying
assholes are not treated well.