Microsoft is Afraid
Freeride
>"I was most, and least, surprised by one class of visitor though," he
>adds. "We had regular visits from Microsoft employees! They wanted demos
>of KDE, to see how it works and what we have. What an interesting
>situation. I soon discovered that this was not the only place that
>Microsoft people were doing investigations."
http://dot.kde.org/1069632528/
>On Tuesday there was a Linux Desktop conference in the afternoon. I
>decided it would be worthwhile to go to that, and while I was stuck at
>the booth for quite a while and ended up being 15 minutes late, I still
>managed to catch a significant portion of it. KDE (on SUSE) was used as
>the demonstration desktop on the screen, and the panel was quite
>supportive of KDE. I think this is partially because of Xandros and
>Lindows using KDE as well. I did not see any trace of Lindows people
>around, although my understanding is that they should have been there.
>While the talk was going on, I heard some furious typing behind my back.
>I turned around and could see someone two rows back writing on one of
>those tablet PCs that nobody buys. I turned around further and there was
>someone beside him typing on a laptop - whew, I wasn't insane! I wondered
>who was so interested in this conference, and I tried to see their
>badges. They were hidden, but as the talk ended I waited around until
>they got up. Microsoft. I am not sure if I got their names right but
>according to LinuxWorld they were General Manager of Microsoft TV
>Marketing, Alan Yates, and Pascal Stoltz, director of Microsoft's
>Information Worker Group - the group producing Office, Visio, FrontPage,
>etc. Seems like someone is really interested in Linux on the desktop!
John Bailo
>>they got up. Microsoft. I am not sure if I got their names right but
>>according to LinuxWorld they were General Manager of Microsoft TV
>>Marketing, Alan Yates, and Pascal Stoltz, director of Microsoft's
>>Information Worker Group - the group producing Office, Visio, FrontPage,
>>etc. Seems like someone is really interested in Linux on the desktop!
Hah, seems like someone is trying to float
their resumes around LinuxWorld given that
their meal ticket is about to be torn up once
2.6 is released.
Milo T.
> http://www.linuxworld.com/story/38026.htm
>
>>"I was most, and least, surprised by one class of visitor though," he
>>adds. "We had regular visits from Microsoft employees! They wanted demos
>>of KDE, to see how it works and what we have. What an interesting
>>situation. I soon discovered that this was not the only place that
>>Microsoft people were doing investigations."
[snippage]
Afraid?
Heck, I'd be surprised if they *weren't* looking at it very closely. And if
I was a shareholder, I'd be asking for an investigation of the company for
having stupid business practices if they weren't looking at it.
*shrugs*
I mean, it's not like the Kompany guys don't look at Windows. Or Office.
I can see the headlines now: "Company employees keep eyes open, watch
competitors moves: film @ 11"
Rick
You either don't remember, or didn't know, that a micro$oft employee once
video taped a Go demo. Back at m$, someone wrote a demo that merely
reproduced what happened on screen. There was no handwriting code. m$ they
pre-announced its non-existing handwriting software, froze the market and
killed Go Computing.
--
Rick
Peter Jensen
>>> "I was most, and least, surprised by one class of visitor though,"
>>> he adds. "We had regular visits from Microsoft employees! They
>>> wanted demos of KDE, to see how it works and what we have. What an
>>> interesting situation. I soon discovered that this was not the only
>>> place that Microsoft people were doing investigations."
>
> Afraid?
>
> Heck, I'd be surprised if they *weren't* looking at it very closely.
> And if I was a shareholder, I'd be asking for an investigation of the
> company for having stupid business practices if they weren't looking
> at it.
Perhaps they aren't afraid, but remember that a few years back they
completely ignored Linux. Now they aren't. That indicates that
something is definitely happening. They more or less lost the server
market, and now it seems like they're paying attention to what the
competing desktop is doing. They obviously know that something is
happening, and ignoring it doesn't work. The next few years will be
interesting indeed ...
--
PeKaJe
Machines take me by surprise with great frequency. -- Alan Turing
Barbrawl McBribe
> Afraid?
>
> Heck, I'd be surprised if they *weren't* looking at it very closely. And if
> I was a shareholder, I'd be asking for an investigation of the company for
> having stupid business practices if they weren't looking at it.
>
> *shrugs*
>
> I mean, it's not like the Kompany guys don't look at Windows. Or Office.
Of course, they do. The differences are:
1) We don't slap patents on prior art from years ago.
2) We don't make bullshit PR moves like:
http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/default.asp
And claim we 'innovated' something that obviously came from somewhere
else. If it does, we credit the originator of the UI.
While we're on UI's and patents, I'd like to tell me what you think of
M$' 180 degree turn on their decision that look-and-feel is not IP;
remember that court case??
CJT
Maybe they're looking for innovations they can innovate.
--
After being targeted with gigabytes of trash by the "SWEN" worm, I have
concluded we must conceal our e-mail address. Our true address is the
mirror image of what you see before the "@" symbol. It's a shame such
steps are necessary. ...Charlie
John Bailo
> I can see the headlines now: "Company employees keep eyes open, watch
> competitors moves: film @ 11"
How about "Former m$ employees beg Linux companies to hire
them as revenues plummet and Bill starts charging for the
formerly free soda."
Of course, in the Linux world there is no 'film', just a
streaming presentation at Reuters.
Peter Jensen
> Maybe they're looking for innovations they can innovate.
Wouldn't be the first time. I've heard that they've planned on
introducing such innovations as multiple desktops, tabbed browsing, and
even pop-up blocking!
--
PeKaJe
The last vestiges of the old Republic have been swept away.
-- Governor Tarkin
Linønut
> 2) We don't make bullshit PR moves like:
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/default.asp
Looks like they got Bill nice and slim for this picture.
"No cheeseburg! No Pepsi!"
--
No, I won't fix your Windows computer!
John Bailo
> Fearing a spontaneous XP reboot, Barbrawl McBribe mumbled this incantation:
>
>
>>2) We don't make bullshit PR moves like:
>>
>>http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/default.asp
>
>
> Looks like they got Bill nice and slim for this picture.
>
> "No cheeseburg! No Pepsi!"
>
yea. it's amazing what a good graphic artist can
do with the gimp.
Sinister Midget
> CJT wrote:
>
>> Maybe they're looking for innovations they can innovate.
>
> Wouldn't be the first time. I've heard that they've planned on
> introducing such innovations as multiple desktops, tabbed browsing, and
> even pop-up blocking!
They already did the desktops, but the don't support it (probably
because Erik pronounced it as useless).
The others are useless and evil and illegal according to Erik. But I'm
sure they asked his permission first, so I guess his apparent softened
stance on them is genuine.
--
Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make
it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay
for new products or new versions of existing products."
Milo T.
> Peter Jensen blubbered effusively on Thu, 27 Nov 2003 at 17:11 GMT:
>
>> CJT wrote:
>>
>>> Maybe they're looking for innovations they can innovate.
>>
>> Wouldn't be the first time. I've heard that they've planned on
>> introducing such innovations as multiple desktops, tabbed browsing, and
>> even pop-up blocking!
>
> They already did the desktops, but the don't support it (probably
> because Erik pronounced it as useless).
They already did tabbed browsing. Look at Visual Studio .NET. Or FrontPage.
Or Excel (any version).
OK, so not exactly what you're talking about, but they had the
functionality it a while back.
Milo T.
> <snip>
>
>> Afraid?
>>
>> Heck, I'd be surprised if they *weren't* looking at it very closely. And if
>> I was a shareholder, I'd be asking for an investigation of the company for
>> having stupid business practices if they weren't looking at it.
>>
>> *shrugs*
>>
>> I mean, it's not like the Kompany guys don't look at Windows. Or Office.
>
> Of course, they do. The differences are:
>
> 1) We don't slap patents on prior art from years ago.
Nor do they, knowingly.
> 2) We don't make bullshit PR moves like:
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/default.asp
>
> And claim we 'innovated' something that obviously came from somewhere
> else. If it does, we credit the originator of the UI.
Which part of that page are you talking about?
> While we're on UI's and patents, I'd like to tell me what you think of
> M$' 180 degree turn on their decision that look-and-feel is not IP;
> remember that court case??
Where did they make that 180 degree turn? References?
Milo T.
> Milo T. wrote:
>
>> I can see the headlines now: "Company employees keep eyes open, watch
>> competitors moves: film @ 11"
>
> How about "Former m$ employees beg Linux companies to hire
> them as revenues plummet and Bill starts charging for the
> formerly free soda."
How about "Former OSS company employees beg Microsoft to hire them as OSS
collapses, and OSS companies go out of business because they don't have
revenue streams large enough to support themselves"?
Sounds about as likely.
Milo T.
ISTR that "Barbarians Led By Bill Gates" had a different take on that
story. One not quite so rosily painted as Go Computing tried to do.
I don't know why you think the KDE guys have anything to be "afraid of".
It's not like they've come up with anything special or "daring" in UI
design. If this was an Apple conference they were sitting at, you might
have a point.
It wasn't.
It was a KDE conference, and there aren't really any features I've seen
which even compare to Apple and Microsoft for UI design and implementation,
never mind actually come up with anything *new*.
John Bailo
> How about "Former OSS company employees beg Microsoft to hire them as OSS
> collapses, and OSS companies go out of business because they don't have
> revenue streams large enough to support themselves"?
>
> Sounds about as likely.
'OSS companies' never had income to begin with!
Whereas Gate$, being the greedy fucker he is,
is going to start firing people right and left now that
he's realized it's over.
John Bailo
> It was a KDE conference, and there aren't really any features I've seen
> which even compare to Apple and Microsoft for UI design and implementation,
> never mind actually come up with anything *new*.
KDE is the most orthagonal wm I have ever used. It
literally understands almost every file type and what to
do with it...none of these 'Open With..' shannanigans.
Apple is still too 'open ended' for me, and once
one gets past the glitz, it's really just the same as LoseDOS.
Milo T.
> Milo T. wrote:
>
>> It was a KDE conference, and there aren't really any features I've seen
>> which even compare to Apple and Microsoft for UI design and implementation,
>> never mind actually come up with anything *new*.
>
> KDE is the most orthagonal wm I have ever used.
Sure, but if you want it to look nicer, you can use Enlightenment.
Thankyou everybody.. I'll be here all week... try the veal!
Barbrawl McBribe
> On 27 Nov 2003 07:41:30 -0800, Barbrawl McBribe wrote:
>
> > <snip>
> >
> >> Afraid?
> >>
> >> Heck, I'd be surprised if they *weren't* looking at it very closely. And if
> >> I was a shareholder, I'd be asking for an investigation of the company for
> >> having stupid business practices if they weren't looking at it.
> >>
> >> *shrugs*
> >>
> >> I mean, it's not like the Kompany guys don't look at Windows. Or Office.
> >
> > Of course, they do. The differences are:
> >
> > 1) We don't slap patents on prior art from years ago.
>
> Nor do they, knowingly.
Heh heh. Bullshit.
http://lists.debian.org/debian-doc/2000/debian-doc-200005/msg00003.html
>
> > 2) We don't make bullshit PR moves like:
> >
> > http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/default.asp
> >
> > And claim we 'innovated' something that obviously came from somewhere
> > else. If it does, we credit the originator of the UI.
>
> Which part of that page are you talking about?
I'm talking about the hubris-laden PR Billshit from M$, such as
'Freedom to Innovate'. They are constantly claiming things like
'innovating' things that aren't really innovations at all, at least
not theirs.
http://research.microsoft.com/news/msrnews/newsDisplay.aspx?id=599
yawn, spamassassin...
>
> > While we're on UI's and patents, I'd like to tell me what you think of
> > M$' 180 degree turn on their decision that look-and-feel is not IP;
> > remember that court case??
>
> Where did they make that 180 degree turn? References?
Well, they're patenting UI features now, aren't they??
Milo T.
> "Milo T." <fanta...@malaprop.net> wrote in message news:<139e6fnwwpqbh$.1qyuc2ilr2g7h$@fanatastical.malaprop.net>...
>> On 27 Nov 2003 07:41:30 -0800, Barbrawl McBribe wrote:
>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> Afraid?
>>>>
>>>> Heck, I'd be surprised if they *weren't* looking at it very closely. And if
>>>> I was a shareholder, I'd be asking for an investigation of the company for
>>>> having stupid business practices if they weren't looking at it.
>>>>
>>>> *shrugs*
>>>>
>>>> I mean, it's not like the Kompany guys don't look at Windows. Or Office.
>>>
>>> Of course, they do. The differences are:
>>>
>>> 1) We don't slap patents on prior art from years ago.
>>
>> Nor do they, knowingly.
>
> Heh heh. Bullshit.
>
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-doc/2000/debian-doc-200005/msg00003.html
No, not bullshit.
http://lists.debian.org/debian-doc/2000/debian-doc-200005/msg00006.html
>>
>>> 2) We don't make bullshit PR moves like:
>>>
>>> http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/default.asp
>>>
>>> And claim we 'innovated' something that obviously came from somewhere
>>> else. If it does, we credit the originator of the UI.
>>
>> Which part of that page are you talking about?
>
> I'm talking about the hubris-laden PR Billshit from M$, such as
> 'Freedom to Innovate'. They are constantly claiming things like
> 'innovating' things that aren't really innovations at all, at least
> not theirs.
>
> http://research.microsoft.com/news/msrnews/newsDisplay.aspx?id=599
So you don't like their marketing speak - big deal. You might find more
information if you looked for the actual meat of the system, and not just
the press releases.
You might also find it interesting to note that their anti-Spam work goes
back at least as far as 1998. And it wouldn't hurt to read some of the
research behind what they're doing... say:
ftp://ftp.research.microsoft.com/pub/ejh/junkfilter.pdf
http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/1998/0921/6206254a.html - from 1998.
>
> yawn, spamassassin...
SpamAssassin goes back to... oh, 2000. Microsoft have been working on their
stuff since 1998. Remember, they got sued by Blue Mountain Arts and had to
rip their junkmail filter out of their mail application. So yes, their work
predates SpamAssassin.
You might also want to search MS Research's site to see what their
technology *actually* has behind it.
http://research.microsoft.com/search/
>>
>>> While we're on UI's and patents, I'd like to tell me what you think of
>>> M$' 180 degree turn on their decision that look-and-feel is not IP;
>>> remember that court case??
>>
>> Where did they make that 180 degree turn? References?
>
> Well, they're patenting UI features now, aren't they??
I have no idea. Perhaps you should provide some references?
BTW: I think you'll find that the look-and-feel suit was possible to win
simply because there were *no* patents to invalidate.
Linønut
> Heh heh. Bullshit.
>
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-doc/2000/debian-doc-200005/msg00003.html
As GNU/Linux takes over, MS will use this tool more and more.
Ironically, IBM, which already uses this tool, may be the only entity
with enough software-related patents to force MS into cross-licensing.
It's a scary world for freedom.
We may one day all be forced underground to enjoy Free software.
> Well, they're patenting UI features now, aren't they??
--
Terry
First ignore you
Then they laugh at you
Then they fight you
Then you win!
--
Kind Regards from Terry
My Desktop is powered by GNU/LinuX, Gentoo-1.4_rc2
New Homepage: http://milkstone.d2.net.au/
** Linux Registration Number: 103931, http://counter.li.org **
Milo T.
> Peter Jensen threw some tea leaves on the floor
> and this is what they wrote:
>
>> Milo T. wrote:
>>
>>>>> "I was most, and least, surprised by one class of visitor though,"
>>>>> he adds. "We had regular visits from Microsoft employees! They
>>>>> wanted demos of KDE, to see how it works and what we have. What an
>>>>> interesting situation. I soon discovered that this was not the only
>>>>> place that Microsoft people were doing investigations."
>>>
>>> Afraid?
>>>
>>> Heck, I'd be surprised if they *weren't* looking at it very closely.
>>> And if I was a shareholder, I'd be asking for an investigation of the
>>> company for having stupid business practices if they weren't looking
>>> at it.
>>
>> Perhaps they aren't afraid, but remember that a few years back they
>> completely ignored Linux. Now they aren't. That indicates that
>> something is definitely happening. They more or less lost the server
>> market, and now it seems like they're paying attention to what the
>> competing desktop is doing. They obviously know that something is
>> happening, and ignoring it doesn't work. The next few years will be
>> interesting indeed ...
>
> First [the Linux users] ignore you
> Then [the Linux users] laugh at you
> Then [the Linux users] fight you
> Then you win!
(Edited to show the pointlessness of that particular little mantra; it can
refer to people on EITHER side of this "battle").
paul cooke
>> First [the Linux users] ignore you
>> Then [the Linux users] laugh at you
>> Then [the Linux users] fight you
>> Then you win!
>
> (Edited to show the pointlessness of that particular little mantra; it can
> refer to people on EITHER side of this "battle").
No... only applies to "Giant sized Empires" vs "grassroots opposition"
situations...
--
COMPUTER POWER TO THE PEOPLE! DOWN WITH CYBERCRUD!
Milo T.
> Milo T. wrote:
>
>>> First [the Linux users] ignore you
>>> Then [the Linux users] laugh at you
>>> Then [the Linux users] fight you
>>> Then you win!
>>
>> (Edited to show the pointlessness of that particular little mantra; it can
>> refer to people on EITHER side of this "battle").
>
> No... only applies to "Giant sized Empires" vs "grassroots opposition"
> situations...
Funny...I didn't see that on the side of the tin it came in. Certainly, it
only says "they".
Peter Jensen
>> First [the Linux users] ignore you
>> Then [the Linux users] laugh at you
>> Then [the Linux users] fight you
>> Then you win!
>
> (Edited to show the pointlessness of that particular little mantra; it
> can refer to people on EITHER side of this "battle").
I don't think we ever really ignored the competition, once the desktop
market was targeted. We may laugh at it, but with all the flaws that
other camp has to endure, it's understandable. Besides, world
domination would only be a nice side effect. Most OSS programmers just
do it for the fun of it, or out of personal need.
--
PeKaJe
Earth Destroyed by Solar Flare -- film clips at eleven.
Barbrawl McBribe
> On 27 Nov 2003 15:50:21 -0800, Barbrawl McBribe wrote:
>
> > "Milo T." <fanta...@malaprop.net> wrote in message news:<139e6fnwwpqbh$.1qyuc2ilr2g7h$@fanatastical.malaprop.net>...
> >> On 27 Nov 2003 07:41:30 -0800, Barbrawl McBribe wrote:
> >>
> >>> <snip>
> >>>
> >>>> Afraid?
> >>>>
> >>>> Heck, I'd be surprised if they *weren't* looking at it very closely. And if
> >>>> I was a shareholder, I'd be asking for an investigation of the company for
> >>>> having stupid business practices if they weren't looking at it.
> >>>>
> >>>> *shrugs*
> >>>>
> >>>> I mean, it's not like the Kompany guys don't look at Windows. Or Office.
> >>>
> >>> Of course, they do. The differences are:
> >>>
> >>> 1) We don't slap patents on prior art from years ago.
> >>
> >> Nor do they, knowingly.
> >
> > Heh heh. Bullshit.
> >
> > http://lists.debian.org/debian-doc/2000/debian-doc-200005/msg00003.html
>
> No, not bullshit.
>
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-doc/2000/debian-doc-200005/msg00006.html
No, still bullshit.
http://lists.debian.org/debian-doc/2000/debian-doc-200005/msg00007.html
Formulation *does* count. The methods contain in the patent detail the
server doing dependency checks, as opposed to the client. Which is
different. However the *only* fundamental difference from apt-get's
modus operandi is this use of the server. Other than that they are
pretty much the same.
Here's another lame-ass patent by M$.
Ooh, how innovative.
Wow, superstat w/ DRM enabled!!
>
> >>
> >>> 2) We don't make bullshit PR moves like:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/default.asp
> >>>
> >>> And claim we 'innovated' something that obviously came from somewhere
> >>> else. If it does, we credit the originator of the UI.
> >>
> >> Which part of that page are you talking about?
> >
> > I'm talking about the hubris-laden PR Billshit from M$, such as
> > 'Freedom to Innovate'. They are constantly claiming things like
> > 'innovating' things that aren't really innovations at all, at least
> > not theirs.
> >
> > http://research.microsoft.com/news/msrnews/newsDisplay.aspx?id=599
>
> So you don't like their marketing speak - big deal. You might find more
> information if you looked for the actual meat of the system, and not just
> the press releases.
>
> You might also find it interesting to note that their anti-Spam work goes
> back at least as far as 1998. And it wouldn't hurt to read some of the
> research behind what they're doing... say:
>
> ftp://ftp.research.microsoft.com/pub/ejh/junkfilter.pdf
>
> http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/1998/0921/6206254a.html - from 1998.
>
> >
> > yawn, spamassassin...
>
> SpamAssassin goes back to... oh, 2000. Microsoft have been working on their
> stuff since 1998. Remember, they got sued by Blue Mountain Arts and had to
> rip their junkmail filter out of their mail application. So yes, their work
> predates SpamAssassin.
Oh, yes, I do remember that bit of treachery. My bad...
>
> You might also want to search MS Research's site to see what their
> technology *actually* has behind it.
>
> http://research.microsoft.com/search/
>
> >>
> >>> While we're on UI's and patents, I'd like to tell me what you think of
> >>> M$' 180 degree turn on their decision that look-and-feel is not IP;
> >>> remember that court case??
> >>
> >> Where did they make that 180 degree turn? References?
> >
> > Well, they're patenting UI features now, aren't they??
>
> I have no idea. Perhaps you should provide some references?
>
> BTW: I think you'll find that the look-and-feel suit was possible to win
> simply because there were *no* patents to invalidate.
Oh, but they decided interfaces ARE NOT IP. And I do think they got
pissed when apple got on their tits over the equally stupid apple
themes patent.
Rick
Pages 129-130 tells of the video taping. Page 136 'But most important, all
we had to do or our demo was to duplicae on our screen what they did on
heir screen. It wasn't like we had to build any real working code. ...
They did a demo, we focused on coopying it as fast as we could" -
Babrbarians Led By Bill Gates.
>
> I don't know why you think the KDE guys have anything to be "afraid of".
They have micro$oft's illegal, immoral and unethical behavior to be afraid
of.
> It's not like they've come up with anything special or "daring" in UI
> design. If this was an Apple conference they were sitting at, you might
> have a point.
>
> It wasn't.
>
> It was a KDE conference, and there aren't really any features I've seen
> which even compare to Apple and Microsoft for UI design and
> implementation, never mind actually come up with anything *new*.
Get a clue.
--
Rick
Rick
When did tabbed browsing make it into IE?
--
Rick
Milo T.
That's a Unisys patent. Not a Microsoft one.
> http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=50&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1=Microsoft&OS=Microsoft&RS=Microsoft
> Wow, superstat w/ DRM enabled!!
That's an Inceptor, Inc. patent. Not a Microsoft one.
Do you actually look at what you're reading? Or just throw random shit out
there and hope some of it sticks?
>> SpamAssassin goes back to... oh, 2000. Microsoft have been working on their
>> stuff since 1998. Remember, they got sued by Blue Mountain Arts and had to
>> rip their junkmail filter out of their mail application. So yes, their work
>> predates SpamAssassin.
>
> Oh, yes, I do remember that bit of treachery. My bad...
Treachery? Blue Mountain Arts are the treacherous ones here. Microsoft
offered several times to help them around the filter. Blue Mountain Arts
sued instead, and made it so that no-one could have a free junkmail filter.
Freakin' idiots.
>>
>> You might also want to search MS Research's site to see what their
>> technology *actually* has behind it.
>>
>> http://research.microsoft.com/search/
>>
>>>>
>>>>> While we're on UI's and patents, I'd like to tell me what you think of
>>>>> M$' 180 degree turn on their decision that look-and-feel is not IP;
>>>>> remember that court case??
>>>>
>>>> Where did they make that 180 degree turn? References?
>>>
>>> Well, they're patenting UI features now, aren't they??
>>
>> I have no idea. Perhaps you should provide some references?
>
> http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/search-adv.htm&r=5&f=G&l=50&d=PTXT&s1=Microsoft&p=1&OS=Microsoft&RS=Microsoft
That's an AT&T patent.
>>
>> BTW: I think you'll find that the look-and-feel suit was possible to win
>> simply because there were *no* patents to invalidate.
>
> Oh, but they decided interfaces ARE NOT IP. And I do think they got
> pissed when apple got on their tits over the equally stupid apple
> themes patent.
*shrugs*
Rex Ballard
> http://www.linuxworld.com/story/38026.htm
>
> >"I was most, and least, surprised by one class of visitor though," he
> >adds. "We had regular visits from Microsoft employees! They wanted demos
> >of KDE, to see how it works and what we have. What an interesting
> >situation. I soon discovered that this was not the only place that
> >Microsoft people were doing investigations."
This isn't unique. Keep in mind that when Sun captured the interest
of hundreds of Comdex users back in 1992, Microsoft sent several of
it's key people to listen to the SUN presentations and watch the
audience to see what they responded to. They then passed that
information to Bill Gates, who promised all of those key features in
"Windows NT". Of course, Windows NT didn't even exist, and Windows
3.1 had just been released. Microsoft was eventually charged with
fraud by the FTC and Microsoft settled in the now infamous settlement
which was violated and tried in Judge Jackson's court, and ultimately
led to the DOJ antitrust suit.
> http://dot.kde.org/1069632528/
>
> >On Tuesday there was a Linux Desktop conference in the afternoon. I
> >decided it would be worthwhile to go to that, and while I was stuck at
> >the booth for quite a while and ended up being 15 minutes late, I still
> >managed to catch a significant portion of it. KDE (on SUSE) was used as
> >the demonstration desktop on the screen, and the panel was quite
> >supportive of KDE. I think this is partially because of Xandros and
> >Lindows using KDE as well. I did not see any trace of Lindows people
> >around, although my understanding is that they should have been there.
It's ironic that the same corporate backing behind SCO is also backing
KDE. It's like blessing KDE is blessing SCO. Ironically, the entire
Linux community is falling in line with KDE even though the Canopy
Group funded SCO is now attempting to stop the proliferation of Linux
(or maybe just create a huge bunch of Linux publicity).
> >While the talk was going on, I heard some furious typing behind my back.
> >I turned around and could see someone two rows back writing on one of
> >those tablet PCs that nobody buys. I turned around further and there was
> >someone beside him typing on a laptop - whew, I wasn't insane! I wondered
> >who was so interested in this conference, and I tried to see their
> >badges. They were hidden, but as the talk ended I waited around until
> >they got up. Microsoft. I am not sure if I got their names right but
> >according to LinuxWorld they were General Manager of Microsoft TV
> >Marketing, Alan Yates, and Pascal Stoltz, director of Microsoft's
> >Information Worker Group - the group producing Office, Visio, FrontPage,
> >etc. Seems like someone is really interested in Linux on the desktop!
Don't be surprised if the Microsoft "Innovations" announced in the
next version of Windows (currently codenamed Longhorn) will include
dozens of features streight out of the KDE presentation. Of course,
Longhorn **might** be out by 2005 (like Windows 95 - sometime around
august 2005) while Linux/KDE are available right now in nearly every
Linux distribution.
Of course, Bill Gates will try to paint Linux as "just a kernel", and
might even try to brand it as "1970's technology", even as it
scrambles to try to get the features available in November 2003 into
the version which will make it to the general public in usable form in
November 2005. Of course, Linux won't be holding still either. KDE
and GNOME will continue to compete with each other, resulting in even
better features and more choices and even more competitive packages.
Microsoft is acutely interested in Linux on the desktop, but not for
the reason you think. While the Google Zeitgeist official lists Linux
as 1% of the market, this is largely because of very careful and
restrictive parsing of the browser definition. A closer look shows
that the "Other" catagory is nearly 95% Linux, which means that Linux
now represents at least 6% of the IP addresses used by Client
machines.
But Microsoft has even better accounting, through cookies and
registration accounts including numerous sites, as well as Verisign
certificates used by nearly anyone using Linux, windows and "other".
They keep much better details. They probably have a figure that is
much more accurate, and shows that Linux has a MUCH larger share,
possibly as much as 20% of all of the users in the market use Linux
for at least some portion of their browsing.
Suppose it were 20%. That's 20% of nearly 1 billion PCs, which are
operated as Dual-boot, Linux over windows, WINE, or Linux clients.
That would be over 200 million Linux users world-wide. There was once
a time when software publisher and OEMs would kill for access to a
market of 200 million end-users.
Linux offers a unique opportunity which isn't available in the
Microsoft market. There are millions of workstations and servers,
running Linux, and no Microsoft monopoly threatening to drive them out
of the market the minute they make their first $million.
Erik Funkenbusch
> CJT wrote:
>
>> Maybe they're looking for innovations they can innovate.
>
> Wouldn't be the first time. I've heard that they've planned on
> introducing such innovations as multiple desktops, tabbed browsing, and
> even pop-up blocking!
I never said it was useless. I said it was useless *TO ME*, or rather I
don't see any benefit from it that I can't get from using the taskbar *FOR
ME*.
Erik Funkenbusch
> <snip>
>
>> Afraid?
>>
>> Heck, I'd be surprised if they *weren't* looking at it very closely. And if
>> I was a shareholder, I'd be asking for an investigation of the company for
>> having stupid business practices if they weren't looking at it.
>>
>> *shrugs*
>>
>> I mean, it's not like the Kompany guys don't look at Windows. Or Office.
>
> Of course, they do. The differences are:
>
> 1) We don't slap patents on prior art from years ago.
I think you haven't been paying much attention to the actions of Red Hat
and others lately that have been building patent portfolio's, much of which
covers technology that's been used for many years.
I'm not criticizing Red Hat on this, since the realities of the market
dictate that if you don't have your own patent portfolio, you're a sitting
duck in any kind of patent suit.
> 2) We don't make bullshit PR moves like:
>
> http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/default.asp
>
> And claim we 'innovated' something that obviously came from somewhere
> else. If it does, we credit the originator of the UI.
Actually, since very little in Linux is "innovative" rather than
"duplicative" I suppose you're right.
> While we're on UI's and patents, I'd like to tell me what you think of
> M$' 180 degree turn on their decision that look-and-feel is not IP;
> remember that court case??
And you're speaking of what?
Erik Funkenbusch
> Fearing a spontaneous XP reboot, Barbrawl McBribe mumbled this incantation:
>
>> Heh heh. Bullshit.
>>
>> http://lists.debian.org/debian-doc/2000/debian-doc-200005/msg00003.html
>
> As GNU/Linux takes over, MS will use this tool more and more.
Considering that MS has never, not once, to date used "that tool" against
Linux, you'd be hard pressed to explain why they will do it "more and more"
in the future.
> Ironically, IBM, which already uses this tool, may be the only entity
> with enough software-related patents to force MS into cross-licensing.
And that's the way the patent industry works these days. Microsoft uses
patents defensively, not offensively. To my knowledge, they've never sued
anyone for patent infringement other than to counter a suit against them.
Erik Funkenbusch
Great, more rex-no-babble.
> Freeride <free...@maillinux.org> wrote in message news:<pan.2003.11.27....@maillinux.org>...
>> http://www.linuxworld.com/story/38026.htm
>>
>>>"I was most, and least, surprised by one class of visitor though," he
>>>adds. "We had regular visits from Microsoft employees! They wanted demos
>>>of KDE, to see how it works and what we have. What an interesting
>>>situation. I soon discovered that this was not the only place that
>>>Microsoft people were doing investigations."
>
> This isn't unique.
No, it's not. I was at this years comdex, and I noticed several of the
people from the Open Source areas milling around the microsoft area. In
fact, one of them even admits in the comments of the above referenced
article.
> Keep in mind that when Sun captured the interest
> of hundreds of Comdex users back in 1992, Microsoft sent several of
> it's key people to listen to the SUN presentations and watch the
> audience to see what they responded to. They then passed that
> information to Bill Gates, who promised all of those key features in
> "Windows NT". Of course, Windows NT didn't even exist, and Windows
> 3.1 had just been released.
Apart from the fact that NT was in the final beta stage when the 1992
Comdex happened (November 1992, NT shipped in August 1993 and was
essentially feature frozen at the time of the 1992 comdex).
> Microsoft was eventually charged with
> fraud by the FTC and Microsoft settled in the now infamous settlement
> which was violated and tried in Judge Jackson's court, and ultimately
> led to the DOJ antitrust suit.
Actually, no. Considering that Microsoft was never "charged" with anything
by the FTC, much less any settlement occuring. The FTC dropped their
investigation and the DOJ picked it up. The DOJ, btw, never charged MS
with "fraud" or anything like it either.
> Of course, Bill Gates will try to paint Linux as "just a kernel"
Why not? Many Linux advocates do just that, especially when it's some
fault in something that's not the kernel that's being talked about.
> Microsoft is acutely interested in Linux on the desktop, but not for
> the reason you think. While the Google Zeitgeist official lists Linux
> as 1% of the market, this is largely because of very careful and
> restrictive parsing of the browser definition. A closer look shows
> that the "Other" catagory is nearly 95% Linux, which means that Linux
> now represents at least 6% of the IP addresses used by Client
> machines.
How, pray tell, do you have access to Google's raw data? Or are you just
guessing? I certainly think the "other" category probably does contain a
large percentage of Linux users, but the fact that you claim to have looked
closer at the raw data tells me you're full of shit.
> But Microsoft has even better accounting, through cookies and
> registration accounts including numerous sites, as well as Verisign
> certificates used by nearly anyone using Linux, windows and "other".
> They keep much better details. They probably have a figure that is
> much more accurate, and shows that Linux has a MUCH larger share,
> possibly as much as 20% of all of the users in the market use Linux
> for at least some portion of their browsing.
Given your propensity toward fabrication and fantasy, the fact that even
you claim to be guessing (using the word "probably") shows just how
unlikely your scenario is.
> Suppose it were 20%.
Suppose it were 90%. Hey, why not 150% while we're at it. 150% of the
market is Linux.. uh huh.
> That's 20% of nearly 1 billion PCs, which are
> operated as Dual-boot, Linux over windows, WINE, or Linux clients.
> That would be over 200 million Linux users world-wide. There was once
> a time when software publisher and OEMs would kill for access to a
> market of 200 million end-users.
Uh huh. Right.
Erik Funkenbusch
> http://www.linuxworld.com/story/38026.htm
>
>>"I was most, and least, surprised by one class of visitor though," he
>>adds. "We had regular visits from Microsoft employees! They wanted demos
>>of KDE, to see how it works and what we have. What an interesting
>>situation. I soon discovered that this was not the only place that
>>Microsoft people were doing investigations."
Hmm.. if going to a few booths and presentations means you're "afraid",
what does that say about all the Linux groups attending Microsoft
presentations and booths?
In any event, I was at comdex, and I spent some time at the open source
pavilian. I talked to X.org, apachecon, etc.. It was definately
interesting, but I didn't see these hoardes of people being talked about.
There was a small, but steady flow of traffic, most of them clearly
users/developers. I don't think I saw a single "suit" there.
I listened to a few presentations, one by some small company doing version
management for content management systems as a CVS wrapper. Funny, but
they said they did most of their work in a week, and here they were trying
to hawk a weeks worth of work that just about anyone could do.
Most of the "booths" weren't even booths. They were a cluster of small
round tables the size of which you'd see in a bar, and a few kiosk style
stands demoing a product or two.
I didn't even *SEE* KDE there. I think they had more of a presence in the
conferences area rather than the exhibit floor.
In any event, it's not uncommon to see a lot of cross polination at comdex.
Competitors have historically checked out their competition there. But
since anyone can download kde for free, my guess is that MS was more
interested in how open source was marketing itself rather than what the
products themselves were doing.
Freeride
> Considering that MS has never, not once, to date used "that tool" against
> Linux, you'd be hard pressed to explain why they will do it "more and more"
> in the future.
No, they just get others (SCO) to make up shit and do it for them, that
way they do not look like the bad guys!
Erik Funkenbusch
I don't believe SCO is using patents either. Once again, how can you claim
that MS is using patents "more and more" against Linux?
Peter Jensen
>>> Maybe they're looking for innovations they can innovate.
>>
>> Wouldn't be the first time. I've heard that they've planned on
>> introducing such innovations as multiple desktops, tabbed browsing,
>> and even pop-up blocking!
>
> I never said it was useless. I said it was useless *TO ME*, or rather
> I don't see any benefit from it that I can't get from using the
> taskbar *FOR ME*.
Are you sure that should be in response to my post?
--
PeKaJe
He who findeth sensuous pleasures in the bodies of lush, hot,
pink damsels is not righteous, but he can have a lot more fun.
Nigel Feltham
> Linųnut wrote:
>> Fearing a spontaneous XP reboot, Barbrawl McBribe mumbled this
>> incantation:
>>
>>
>>>2) We don't make bullshit PR moves like:
>>>
>>>http://www.microsoft.com/billgates/default.asp
>>
>>
>> Looks like they got Bill nice and slim for this picture.
>>
>> "No cheeseburg! No Pepsi!"
>>
>
> yea. it's amazing what a good graphic artist can
> do with the gimp.
Harder to do much about the chimp though (balmer monkey boy reference).
--
Nigel Feltham - spanking trolls since 1999
Ed Cogburn
>
> First [the Linux users] ignore you
> Then [the Linux users] laugh at you
> Then [the Linux users] fight you
> Then you win!
>
> (Edited to show the pointlessness of that particular little mantra; it can
> refer to people on EITHER side of this "battle").
Utter bullshit Simon, aren't the wintrolls always complaining about all
the ms bashing that Linux people do, and have done from the beginning?
Hell, I actually agree some of it goes a little overboard depending on
location (here in cola otoh its a response to the wintroll baiting).
Especially 5 or 6 years ago when Linux still had a lot of rough spots.
Now you claim we "ignored" windows?!? ROFL!
Ed Cogburn
>
> It's ironic that the same corporate backing behind SCO is also backing
> KDE. It's like blessing KDE is blessing SCO. Ironically, the entire
> Linux community is falling in line with KDE even though the Canopy
> Group funded SCO is now attempting to stop the proliferation of Linux
> (or maybe just create a huge bunch of Linux publicity).
Rex, you just blew a gasket on this one. The KDE bashing is getting
really tiresome since it hasn't been relevent in a couple of years now.
1) The KDE organization is non-commercial and its code is GPL'd.
2) The Qt library that KDE uses is GPL'd.
3) The Canopy Group has less than a 5% stake in Trolltech.
4) Trolltech remains committed to its Free Edition of Qt.
5) If Trolltech stops its Free Edition, KDE will just take over.
"blessing KDE is [like] blessing SCO" is an amazingly absurd statement.
You're basically equating a non-commercial, open-source,
volunteer-driven project with the Nazi regime of the 21st century's IT
industry. In addition to them having nothing in common, apparently,
thanks to you, we now need to establish a variation on Godwin's Law for
COLA: "As a COLA discussion grows longer, the probability of a
comparison involving SCO or Darl McBride approaches one.".
http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law
:)
Milo T.
I don't know if you've noticed, but MS bashing would count as laughing and
fighting. The "ignore" stage came earlier.
Jesse F. Hughes
One quote of many:
Simply put, it's not a feature that is commonly used enough to
warrant it being in the OS. Third parties can easily fulfill the
need.
I agree that you never said it (multiple desktops, I presume) were
useless. But it is not true that you *only* said that you personally
didn't need them. You said that it is not a commonly used feature at
all.
(Note: I agree that it shouldn't be in the OS. It should be in the
windowing program or manager. I mean, duh.)
--
Jesse F. Hughes
"I thought it relevant to inform that I notified the FBI a couple of
months ago about some of the math issues I've brought up here."
-- James S. Harris gives Special Agent Fox a new assignment.
Barbrawl McBribe
Yeah, I fucked up Simon; wrong search criteria, as opposed to a
malicious attempt to bullshit people (*COUGH* Ewik *HACK*). But their
'package management' still is unusually similar to apt-get, isn't it?
Eh??