Why We Insist On Linux On The Desktop
Robin T Cox
<quote>
The title to this article could just as easily have been, "Why We Don't Use
Windows."
Besides being inflammatory,...well, that's reason enough.
Far be it from me to ever publish anything controversial.
The fact remains, we do insist on installing Linux with every computer we
give away.
Sure, there are the philosophical reasons. As well, there are financial
incentives to do so, but in my world...in the world of 1-3 computer installs
every day of the week...
I simply don't want to be bothered with those problems associated with the
use of a Windows computer.
</quote>
--
Big Brother is watching ... so are we
Hadron
"The fact remains, at least in my mind...Linux is a wasted effort on most
adult computer users."
Interesting "advocacy".
Big Steel
wrote:
Who is we? Not everyone is on board with your take on things.
--
posted with a Droid
philo
I don't think the OP actually read the article as if one read it, it was
clearly anti-Linux.
My philosophy is completely different.
I'm a computer refurbisher and I supply my "customers" with the "best
tool for the job".
In some situations, Linux is the best choice...
but I have no intention to "force" people to use something they are not
going to use...it's a foolish waste of time.
Hadron
Something else didnt ring true either : the machine itself. You dont
give dual core 3 gig machines with 5.1 sound to old ladies who want to
play crib online.
I suspect more "advocacy" at work.
But it did seem anti-Linux. Clearly the OP is not qualified to show
someone how desktop Linux can indeed meet "her needs". That sort of
sloppy approach does Linux adoption no end of harm.
Chris Ahlstrom
> On 02/01/2011 06:43 AM, Hadron wrote:
>> Robin T Cox<nom...@nomail.net> writes:
>>
>>> http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2011/01/why-we-insist-on-linux-on-desktop.html
>>>
>>> <quote>
>>> The title to this article could just as easily have been, "Why We Don't Use
>>> Windows."
>>>
>>> Besides being inflammatory,...well, that's reason enough.
>>>
>>> Far be it from me to ever publish anything controversial.
>>>
>>> The fact remains, we do insist on installing Linux with every computer we
>>> give away.
>>>
>>> Sure, there are the philosophical reasons. As well, there are financial
>>> incentives to do so, but in my world...in the world of 1-3 computer installs
>>> every day of the week...
>>>
>>> I simply don't want to be bothered with those problems associated with the
>>> use of a Windows computer.
>>> </quote>
>>
>>
>> "The fact remains, at least in my mind...Linux is a wasted effort on most
>> adult computer users."
>>
>> Interesting "advocacy".
>
> I don't think the OP actually read the article as if one read it, it was
> clearly anti-Linux.
No it wasn't, you two.
The sentence that "Hadron" quoted was in regarding dumbbells who have
preconceived and recalcitrant notions that computing requires Windows, and:
And to be honest, this was pretty much the last straw. We had received
calls from numerous 211 recipients that they had installed Windows on
HeliOS machines and then needed support in getting rid of malware and
viruses.
> My philosophy is completely different.
> I'm a computer refurbisher and I supply my "customers" with the "best
> tool for the job".
>
> In some situations, Linux is the best choice...
> but I have no intention to "force" people to use something they are not
> going to use...it's a foolish waste of time.
It's worse than that, as the article shows.
Between the little snits and the landslide of virus complaints from users
of Windows, it's gotten pretty discouraging.
Kids don't have any philosophical or political concerns when they sit at
a keyboard. They still have open minds and are able to assimilate
different ideas and use them.
--
That woman speaks eight languages and can't say "no" in any of them.
-- Dorothy Parker
JEDIDIAH
** Kids don't have any philosophical or political concerns when they sit at a
** keyboard. They still have open minds and are able to assimilate different
** ideas and use them.
**
**
** To my eye? Adults not so much....with a few exceptions
The adults referenced in the article are brand fixated and refuse to
use anything else regardless of whether or not it's suitable. They
would react the same way if you tried to give them a free Mac.
--
On the subject of kilobyte being "redefined" to mean 1000 bytes...
When I was a wee lad, I was taught that SI units were |||
meant to be computationally convenient rather than just / | \
arbitrarily assigned.
JEDIDIAH
> On 02/01/2011 06:43 AM, Hadron wrote:
>> Robin T Cox<nom...@nomail.net> writes:
>>
>>> http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2011/01/why-we-insist-on-linux-on-desktop.html
>>>
>>> <quote>
>>> The title to this article could just as easily have been, "Why We Don't Use
>>> Windows."
>>>
>>> Besides being inflammatory,...well, that's reason enough.
>>>
>>> Far be it from me to ever publish anything controversial.
>>>
>>> The fact remains, we do insist on installing Linux with every computer we
>>> give away.
>>>
>>> Sure, there are the philosophical reasons. As well, there are financial
>>> incentives to do so, but in my world...in the world of 1-3 computer installs
>>> every day of the week...
>>>
>>> I simply don't want to be bothered with those problems associated with the
>>> use of a Windows computer.
>>> </quote>
>>
>>
>> "The fact remains, at least in my mind...Linux is a wasted effort on most
>> adult computer users."
>>
>> Interesting "advocacy".
>>
>
>
> I don't think the OP actually read the article as if one read it, it was
> clearly anti-Linux.
The article wasn't anti-Linux at all. It merely stated the challenges of
giving Linux machines to people. Some of this is legitimate but most of it is
total nonsense as I have seen light Windows users resist even Macintosh. They
have simply bought into all of the fear mongering that goes on and is helped
along by guys like Hadron.
>
>
> My philosophy is completely different.
> I'm a computer refurbisher and I supply my "customers" with the "best
> tool for the job".
>
>
> In some situations, Linux is the best choice...
> but I have no intention to "force" people to use something they are not
> going to use...it's a foolish waste of time.
>
I think one of the points of the article and it is a point that I myself
have made on a number of occasions: The young see a computer as just a generic
tool whereas adults see a computer as an expression of some sort of brand or
corporate identity. The young are also better able to adapt to a new set of
conditions. Although I think that is less of an issue since Windows itself
creates it's own sets of issues in terms of "consistency".
White Spirit
> The adults referenced in the article are brand fixated and refuse to
> use anything else regardless of whether or not it's suitable. They
> would react the same way if you tried to give them a free Mac.
It's the same situation with the news story that the trolls like to link
to concerning the silly bint who bought a netbook and thought she would
be getting Windows. Windows is the choice of idiots who shouldn't be
let anywhere near a computer in the first place.
Hadron
So 95% or so of Desktop users are "idiots"?
Only in COLA...
Hey. Isn't it you that doesnt have a clue about programming languages?
Or much else it seems.
Chris Ahlstrom
> I think one of the points of the article and it is a point that I myself
> have made on a number of occasions: The young see a computer as just a generic
> tool whereas adults see a computer as an expression of some sort of brand or
> corporate identity.
That is a great point!
> The young are also better able to adapt to a new set of
> conditions.
Also a good point.
> Although I think that is less of an issue since Windows itself
> creates it's own sets of issues in terms of "consistency".
Just ask "The Video Professor".
--
A lifetime isn't nearly long enough to figure out what it's all about.
amicus_curious
"JEDIDIAH" <je...@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
news:slrnikg4g...@nomad.mishnet...
That's good thinking, Jedidiah, you are beginning to get a clue! Now think
about who it is that actually buys computers that are used by kids. Then
think about who sells computers to people who buy them. Then think about
what that means for what OS is going to be supplied.
JEDIDIAH
Dual core isn't much anymore. I have old castoff Macs that are dual core.
Even some of the lowly Atoms are dual core. The same is true of the memory as
well. While Macs don't come with much, it is pretty common for even basic PCs
to come with that much memory.
It's just not a spec to write home about anymore.
chrisv
> Quack:
>>
>> Something else didnt ring true either : the machine itself. You dont
>> give dual core 3 gig machines with 5.1 sound to old ladies who want to
>> play crib online.
>
> Dual core isn't much anymore. I have old castoff Macs that are dual core.
>Even some of the lowly Atoms are dual core. The same is true of the memory as
>well. While Macs don't come with much, it is pretty common for even basic PCs
>to come with that much memory.
>
> It's just not a spec to write home about anymore.
Does Quack ever post without making a jackass of himself? I don't
know why he doesn't keep his dumbass opinions to himself.
Sheesh. As if dual-cores are exotic, or something.
One-Shot, One-Kill
"chrisv" <chr...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:8o8gk6hgsu7pl4fjg...@4ax.com...
>
> Does Quack ever post without making a jackass of himself? I don't
> know why he doesn't keep his dumbass opinions to himself.
does the chrisv fscking asshole ever post without talking about hadron?
perhaps the chrisv fscking asshole should go fsck himself and leave the
adults alone.
"chrisv" is a piece of shit. "chrisv" is a liar.
White Spirit
> Does Quack ever post without making a jackass of himself? I don't
> know why he doesn't keep his dumbass opinions to himself.
He's just showing us what constitutes good advocacy. Apparently, it
doesn't actually involve advocating Linux or discuss its merits.
> Sheesh. As if dual-cores are exotic, or something.
I bought a quad-core computer last year and the pricing of AMDs Athlon
X4 chips means that they are competing with intermediate power chips at
entry level pricing. The last time I was looking, there were 6-core
chips available at reasonable prices likewise. Dual core technology is
not high end in the slightest.
Ezekiel
"White Spirit" <wsp...@homechoice.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ii996d$fs2$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
It's not easy finding a single-core processor these days. Looking at the
processors sold on NewEgg - even the cheapest "mobile" processor is dual
core.
Newegg has roughly 80 "desktop" processors listed. All but the cheapest
three (3) are dual cores or more.
SomeBloke
Then think about a level playing field where those that sell the
computers that are used by kids aren't locked-in by a certain OS vendor.
Then think about those that sell the computers used by kids making an
honest effort to give shelf space to a vendor of a competing OS.
Just a thought. Isn't that what competition in the market place is all
about, allowing competing products a chance without imposing one solution?
Isn't just having one option anti-competitive?
--
I'm always polite, reasonable and kind.... except when I'm not.
Hadron
My understanding, and I apologise if wrong, was that these PCs were
refurbished PCs. When he claims this to have happened I am surprised so
a well powered machines was a give away.
As usual the whining, clueless "advocates" are making a mountain out of
a mole hill. Again.
SomeBloke
Ah Hadron, you twist and turn like a twisty-turny thing.
(With apologies to The BlackAdder)
chrisv
>Ah Hadron, you twist and turn like a twisty-turny thing.
Poor Larry is the (well documented) "clueless" one. If he was spanked
here for a rather trivial error, at least it was with the truth, as
opposed to the lies that he uses to attack us...
amicus_curious
"SomeBloke" <st...@stuff.com> wrote in message
news:ii9aib$l5r$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
You call it "lock-in" because it motivates people who have Windows to
continue to buy Windows so that they preserve their investment in their past
purchases. Others might call it "continued product support" or some
similar, desirable characteristic. Shelf space will be given to those
worthy of being given shelf space, namely those who have something different
and desirable for public purchase. Linux has never been able to demonstrate
that attribute for desktop computer use. Never.
Linux computers have been offered in the past by OEMs and retailers alike,
with a stunning lack of success. Such "honest efforts" have always been met
with commercial failure and subsequent retraction by the vendor.
> Just a thought. Isn't that what competition in the market place is all
> about, allowing competing products a chance without imposing one solution?
>
Competition is offering what some group of consumers want in a manner more
optimal than anyone else. That takes more than words, though, it takes a
real commitment and some substantial effort to ensure that that group of
consumers hears and understands the good news that you are trying to bring
to them. Linux vendors and advocates have never had the necessary
commitment to achieve that sort of success. Rather they carp and whine
about "level playing fields" when what they really want is a change to the
rules of the game that gives them some advantage. Even when they get such a
thing, as in Europe today, they cannot muster enough energy to win many
converts.
> Isn't just having one option anti-competitive?
>
Not at all. As we see with Microsoft, they have to spend billions per year
evolving their products just to compete with themselves and so get customers
to want newer versions of Windows, Office, and other products.
Anti-competitive means doing things that are prohibited by law for the
express purpose of limiting competition. Just being in a huge market that
is difficult to enter on a shoestring is not anti-competitive.
ray
Pretty much in line with my experiences. When my sister and her husband
have been here, she needed a computer to do her work. I sat her down at
one of our Linux machines and she happily did what she needed - without
coaching. Her husband, on the other hand, would not touch it since it
wasn't Windows and he "didn't have time to learn a new system".
philo
> philo wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On 02/01/2011 06:43 AM, Hadron wrote:
>>> Robin T Cox<nom...@nomail.net> writes:
>>>
>>>> http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2011/01/why-we-insist-on-linux-on-desktop.html
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "The fact remains, at least in my mind...Linux is a wasted effort on most
>>> adult computer users."
>>>
>>> Interesting "advocacy".
>>
>> I don't think the OP actually read the article as if one read it, it was
>> clearly anti-Linux.
>
> No it wasn't, you two.
Hard to tell for sure...
but the person who wrote the article seemed pretty arrogant to me.
At any rate... No sense in wasting everyone's time to give someone a
machine they are not going to use.
>
> The sentence that "Hadron" quoted was in regarding dumbbells who have
> preconceived and recalcitrant notions that computing requires Windows, and:
>
> And to be honest, this was pretty much the last straw. We had received
> calls from numerous 211 recipients that they had installed Windows on
> HeliOS machines and then needed support in getting rid of malware and
> viruses.
>
>> My philosophy is completely different.
>> I'm a computer refurbisher and I supply my "customers" with the "best
>> tool for the job".
>>
>> In some situations, Linux is the best choice...
>> but I have no intention to "force" people to use something they are not
>> going to use...it's a foolish waste of time.
>
> It's worse than that, as the article shows.
>
> Between the little snits and the landslide of virus complaints from users
> of Windows, it's gotten pretty discouraging.
>
I agree that with all the malware out there ...Windows is a pretty
dismal prospect
philo
Although within the last few years I've put together a few dual-core
machines from "junk-box" parts...
Dual core machines are definitely not those that I'm supplying to my
"customers" free.
The "giveaway" machines are in the P-III / I-V category
Sinister Midget III
> Isn't just having one option anti-competitive?
_One_ option is /no/ option. But don't say it too hard or you'll break
anal_curious' head.
--
This tagline only uses recycled keystrokes.
Aspire One, Peppermint Ice
Friends don't let friends use Windows
JEDIDIAH
>
>> On 01/02/2011 13:53, JEDIDIAH wrote:
>>
>>> The adults referenced in the article are brand fixated and refuse to
>>> use anything else regardless of whether or not it's suitable. They
>>> would react the same way if you tried to give them a free Mac.
>>
>> It's the same situation with the news story that the trolls like to link to
>> concerning the silly bint who bought a netbook and thought she would be getting
>> Windows. Windows is the choice of idiots who shouldn't be let anywhere near a
>> computer in the first place.
>
> So 95% or so of Desktop users are "idiots"?
>
> Only in COLA...
Try a foodie channel.
Or perhaps a cabal of beer snobs.
Or perhaps a cabal of audiophiles.
Or any sort of auto enthusiasts.
[deletia]
--
Oracle... can't live with it... |||
/ | \
can't just replace it with postgres...
JEDIDIAH
>
>
> "JEDIDIAH" <je...@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
> news:slrnikg4g...@nomad.mishnet...
[deletia]
>> I think one of the points of the article and it is a point that I
>> myself
>> have made on a number of occasions: The young see a computer as just a
>> generic
>> tool whereas adults see a computer as an expression of some sort of brand
>> or
>> corporate identity. The young are also better able to adapt to a new set
>> of
>> conditions. Although I think that is less of an issue since Windows itself
>> creates it's own sets of issues in terms of "consistency".
>>
> That's good thinking, Jedidiah, you are beginning to get a clue! Now think
> about who it is that actually buys computers that are used by kids. Then
> think about who sells computers to people who buy them. Then think about
> what that means for what OS is going to be supplied.
...that's funny because the schools here don't force feed msoffice.
That's how I know the "microsoft in schools" fixation is so bogus.
Regardless of how you might wish their choices are limited, they can
move from OS to OS without even noticing that they exist. They don't
even notice the differences.
What "OS is supplied" is entirely irrelevant.
So much for all of your "consistency" propaganda.
One-Shot, One-Kill
"chrisv" <chr...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
poor chrisv. the dumbest stupid fscking turd on all of usenet.
the stupid fscking asshole "chrisv" always has time to make a complete
jackass out of shitself.
DFS
> Then think about a level playing field where those that sell the
> computers that are used by kids aren't locked-in by a certain OS vendor.
Nobody is "locked-in", liar. Dell and HP and EVERY OEM in the world is
free to sell whatever operating system(s) they want. If you don't like
that they sell mostly Windows, too bad. Start your own OEM and offer
Linux systems.
> Then think about those that sell the computers used by kids making an
> honest effort to give shelf space to a vendor of a competing OS.
Why don't you give your money to "those that sell the computers" so they
can "give shelf space"? This isn't some charity.
It's too pathetic that Linux "advocates" want everyone else to risk
their money on the proven non-seller Linux, but are 100% unwilling to do
so themselves.
> Just a thought. Isn't that what competition in the market place is all
> about, allowing competing products a chance without imposing one solution?
Competition in the marketplace is offering a product for a price.
Linux/OSS can't compete on quality, and refuses to compete fairly on price.
> Isn't just having one option anti-competitive?
So you agree Linux isn't an acceptable option; I agree too.
Hadron
> On 2/1/2011 10:58 AM, SomeBloke wrote:
>
>> Then think about a level playing field where those that sell the
>> computers that are used by kids aren't locked-in by a certain OS vendor.
>
> Nobody is "locked-in", liar. Dell and HP and EVERY OEM in the world is free to
> sell whatever operating system(s) they want. If you don't like that they sell
> mostly Windows, too bad. Start your own OEM and offer Linux systems.
>
>> Then think about those that sell the computers used by kids making an
>> honest effort to give shelf space to a vendor of a competing OS.
>
> Why don't you give your money to "those that sell the computers" so they can
> "give shelf space"? This isn't some charity.
>
> It's too pathetic that Linux "advocates" want everyone else to risk their money
> on the proven non-seller Linux, but are 100% unwilling to do so themselves.
Possibly some of the hypocritical weenies like Ahlstrom or Koehlmann
could contribute some of the income from their Windows programming jobs
to help? I feel sure they would only be too pleased to contribute.
SomeBloke
Strange, I don't recall going into one of the UK's major PC retailers
(Dixon Stores Group for example) and EVER seeing a PC offered with a GNU/
Linux distro installed. All they have ever offered is the "PCWorld
recommend Windows" mantra. Not in my book an honest effort.
>> Just a thought. Isn't that what competition in the market place is all
>> about, allowing competing products a chance without imposing one
>> solution?
>>
> Competition is offering what some group of consumers want in a manner
> more optimal than anyone else. That takes more than words, though, it
> takes a real commitment and some substantial effort to ensure that that
> group of consumers hears and understands the good news that you are
> trying to bring to them. Linux vendors and advocates have never had the
> necessary commitment to achieve that sort of success. Rather they carp
> and whine about "level playing fields" when what they really want is a
> change to the rules of the game that gives them some advantage. Even
> when they get such a thing, as in Europe today, they cannot muster
> enough energy to win many converts.
>
Competition is having the same ability to promote your goods and/or
products in a fair manner. This is hardly Microsoft's way with
competition is it? I recall how they deliberately attempted to destroy
Netscape with their restrictive practices. They haven't changed at all.
>> Isn't just having one option anti-competitive?
>>
> Not at all. As we see with Microsoft, they have to spend billions per
> year evolving their products just to compete with themselves and so get
> customers to want newer versions of Windows, Office, and other products.
> Anti-competitive means doing things that are prohibited by law for the
> express purpose of limiting competition. Just being in a huge market
> that is difficult to enter on a shoestring is not anti-competitive.
"Doing things that are prohibited by law for the express purpose of
limiting competition". Ah yes, 'The Microsoft Way'. Get rid of the
competition and then with no other options available offer a 'choice' of
different Windows 7 versions. Isn't a choice of one no choice at all?
Isn't that what we in the West have come to call Communism? Isn't that "A
Bad Thing"?
--
I'm always kind, polite and reasonable.... except when I'm not.
Chris Ahlstrom
> On 2011-02-01, Hadron <hadro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> White Spirit <wsp...@homechoice.co.uk> writes:
>>
>>> On 01/02/2011 13:53, JEDIDIAH wrote:
>>>
>>>> The adults referenced in the article are brand fixated and refuse to
>>>> use anything else regardless of whether or not it's suitable. They
>>>> would react the same way if you tried to give them a free Mac.
>>>
>>> It's the same situation with the news story that the trolls like to link to
>>> concerning the silly bint who bought a netbook and thought she would be getting
>>> Windows. Windows is the choice of idiots who shouldn't be let anywhere near a
>>> computer in the first place.
>>
>> So 95% or so of Desktop users are "idiots"?
>>
>> Only in COLA...
>
> Try a foodie channel.
> Or perhaps a cabal of beer snobs.
> Or perhaps a cabal of audiophiles.
> Or any sort of auto enthusiasts.
"Hadron" never heard of Sturgeon's Law? (The more famous law of that name)?
Of course, as far as the trolls go, 100% of them are crud. ;-)
--
If little else, the brain is an educational toy.
-- Tom Robbins
chrisv
>>>
>>> It's the same situation with the news story that the trolls like to link to
>>> concerning the silly bint who bought a netbook and thought she would be getting
>>> Windows. Windows is the choice of idiots who shouldn't be let anywhere near a
>>> computer in the first place.
>>
>> So 95% or so of Desktop users are "idiots"?
That's not what was said, liar.
Robin T Cox
> On Tue, 01 Feb 2011 12:29:19 +0000, Robin T Cox <nom...@nomail.net>
> wrote:
>
> Who is we? Not everyone is on board with your take on things.
>
"We" refers to the Helios Initiative, whose work is referred to in the
article at the following link:
http://www.heliosinitiative.org/
--
Big Brother is watching ... so are we
Steel
> Big Steel wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 01 Feb 2011 12:29:19 +0000, Robin T Cox<nom...@nomail.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Who is we? Not everyone is on board with your take on things.
>>
>
> "We" refers to the Helios Initiative, whose work is referred to in the
> article at the following link:
>
> http://www.heliosinitiative.org/
>
Like I care? You are mistaken if you think I care. :)
JEDIDIAH
What past purchases?
There is always a new version of whatever you happen to be running.
It doesn't matter if you paid for it or not. THAT is how the industry
works. THAT is how it continues to make money. No one makes any money
or stays in business if people simply "preserve their investment".
[deletia]
Thus we have weenies like Hadron trying to defend the massive break
with the past that was manifested in the newer versions of msoffice.
They defend this nonsense despite of their constant attempts to eviscerate
Linux for far less drastic inconsistencies.
--
The social cost of suing/prosecuting individuals |||
for non-commercial copyright infringement far outweighs / | \
the social value of copyright to begin with.
Homer
>
> The sentence that "Hadron" quoted was in regarding dumbbells who have
> preconceived and recalcitrant notions that computing requires Windows,
> and:
>
> And to be honest, this was pretty much the last straw. We had
> received calls from numerous 211 recipients that they had installed
> Windows on HeliOS machines and then needed support in getting rid
> of malware and viruses.
And this:
[quote]
It didn't matter to her that she could do every function on her Linux
machine she could do in Windows.
It wasn't Windows and therefore it sucked.
[/quote]
I.e. bigotry.
That's what Helios meant by "Linux is a wasted effort on most adult
computer users". Generally speaking, children are not bigots; they're
not old enough to have been indoctrinated by right-wing politics and
commercialism.
It wasn't a criticism of Linux, it was a criticism of the sheeple that
comprise the adult masses.
--
K. | Ancient Chinese Proverb:
http://slated.org | "The road to Hell is paved with
Fedora 8 (Werewolf) on sky | ignorant twits who know nothing
kernel 2.6.31.5, up 40 days | about GNU/Linux."
chrisv
>>>
>>> You call it "lock-in" because it motivates people who have Windows to
>>> continue to buy Windows so that they preserve their investment in their
>>> past purchases. Others might call it "continued product support"
Yeah, slimy rats, like you, might call such customer-hostile behavior
"continued product support".
--
"It is far better to trust someone who is after your money." - rat
DFS
> Verily I say unto thee, that Chris Ahlstrom spake thusly:
>>
>> The sentence that "Hadron" quoted was in regarding dumbbells who have
>> preconceived and recalcitrant notions that computing requires Windows,
>> and:
>>
>> And to be honest, this was pretty much the last straw. We had
>> received calls from numerous 211 recipients that they had installed
>> Windows on HeliOS machines and then needed support in getting rid
>> of malware and viruses.
>
> And this:
>
> [quote]
> It didn't matter to her that she could do every function on her Linux
> machine she could do in Windows.
>
> It wasn't Windows and therefore it sucked.
> [/quote]
>
> I.e. bigotry.
>
> That's what Helios meant by "Linux is a wasted effort on most adult
> computer users". Generally speaking, children are not bigots; they're
> not old enough to have been indoctrinated by right-wing politics and
> commercialism.
>
> It wasn't a criticism of Linux, it was a criticism of the sheeple that
> comprise the adult masses.
But not you 8 "advocates" here on cola. You would never be brainwashed
into supporting the worst computer software in the world simply because
it's not Microsoft.
Homer
Dunno whether or not they're idiots, but 100% of people who reject
things without justifiable reason are bigots. One example is brand
dependency. Another is rejecting Free Software because it "must be
communist", or "must be pirate software". It is not the first time
we've seen such bigotry exposed by Helios:
[quote]
"...observed one of my students with a group of other children gathered
around his laptop. Upon looking at his computer, I saw he was giving a
demonstration of some sort. The student was showing the ability of the
laptop and handing out Linux disks. After confiscating the disks I
called a confrence with the student and that is how I came to discover
you and your organization. Mr. Starks, I am sure you strongly believe in
what you are doing but I cannot either support your efforts or allow
them to happen in my classroom. At this point, I am not sure what you
are doing is legal. No software is free and spreading that misconception
is harmful. These children look up to adults for guidance and
discipline. I will research this as time allows and I want to assure
you, if you are doing anything illegal, I will pursue charges as the law
allows. Mr. Starks, I along with many others tried Linux during college
and I assure you, the claims you make are grossly over-stated and hinge
on falsehoods. I admire your attempts in getting computers in the hands
of disadvantaged people but putting linux on these machines is holding
our kids back.
This is a world where Windows runs on virtually every computer and
putting on a carnival show for an operating system is not helping these
children at all. I am sure if you contacted Microsoft, they would be
more than happy to supply you with copies of an older verison of Windows
and that way, your computers would actually be of service to those
receiving them..."
Karen xxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxx Middle School
AISD
[/quote]
http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2008/12/linux-stop-holding-our-kids-back.html
She "tried Linux during college", and knows enough about it to
emphatically state that Helios' claims are "grossly over-stated and
hinge on falsehoods", and yet we're seriously supposed to believe she
doesn't know it's legally free. Meanwhile, we get a little lecture about
how resisting Microsoft's domination is "holding our kids back", and
that Linux PCs are not "of service".
Yeah sure, no bigotry there. Honest.
An Old Friend
If I couldn't do my job with Ubuntu and OSS, I wouldn't use them. For
example, the school uses D2L for its distance learning program. It would
be foolish for me to use *any* other solution, even a proprietary one, in
this case. I can access everything in the school's D2L environment with
tools already available on my netbook, so I'm not forced to purchase a
copy or license of D2L to teach online.
Other than D2L, I can use open-source operating systems and programs to
achieve my goals, and complete the periodic requirements of my job. So I
do. And the people who have seemed to complain the loudest about that are
some people here in the newsgroup.
I complete the requirements of my job in at least the same timeframe that
I would if I were using other operating systems and other software. The
exception to that is music engraving, where Lilypond takes longer than
Finale, but gets a better result in the engraving in my opinion. There
are times when Lilypond is faster (engraving exercises for my piano
students, for example), but I admit that Lilypond takes longer. But the
results have gotten noticed by other musicians and publishers.
The fact that I could also do the job with Windows software and with Mac
OS X (or perhaps even OS/2 or AmigaOS or BeOS) is not denied. The fact
remains that, since I have a choice, I have chosen to use Ubuntu and OSS.
And I am succeeding with it.
Full stop. End of story.
Snit
2/2/11 2:15 PM:
Not sure why anyone would have a problem with this. You have a solution
that works for you and you like it. Man, what a horrible thing! :)
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
An Old Friend
I'm not sure, either, but you have seen how quickly some people jump the
gun and claim that I must be lying; I must be using Microsoft software
instead; I'm taking without giving back; I'm providing a disservice to my
students; etc., etc.
DFS
> The fact that I could also do the job with Windows software and with Mac
> OS X (or perhaps even OS/2 or AmigaOS or BeOS) is not denied. The fact
> remains that, since I have a choice, I have chosen to use Ubuntu and OSS.
> And I am succeeding with it.
>
> Full stop. End of story.
The overwhelming majority - I would think 99% or higher - of people who
need specialized software for their work (accountants, financial
traders, video game developers, music producers, graphic artists, video
editors, magazine publishers, architects, engineers, etc) cannot succeed
with Linux/open source.
Various advocates (and "advocates") who shriek about MS\Windows dying
and Linux taking over are DELUDED.
Chris Ahlstrom
>>> Hadron quacked:
>>> Hadron quacked:
>>> Hadron quacked:
>>> Hadron quacked:
>>> Hadron quacked:
>>> Hadron quacked:
>>> Hadron quacked:
>>> Hadron quacked:
>
> [quote]
> "...observed one of my students with a group of other children gathered
> around his laptop. Upon looking at his computer, I saw he was giving a
> demonstration of some sort. The student was showing the ability of the
> laptop and handing out Linux disks. After confiscating the disks I
> called a confrence with the student and that is how I came to discover
> you and your organization. Mr. Starks, I am sure you strongly believe in
> what you are doing but I cannot either support your efforts or allow
> them to happen in my classroom. At this point, I am not sure what you
> are doing is legal. No software is free and spreading that misconception
> is harmful. These children look up to adults for guidance and
> discipline. I will research this as time allows and I want to assure
> you, if you are doing anything illegal, I will pursue charges as the law
> allows. Mr. Starks, I along with many others tried Linux during college
> and I assure you, the claims you make are grossly over-stated and hinge
> on falsehoods. I admire your attempts in getting computers in the hands
> of disadvantaged people but putting linux on these machines is holding
> our kids back.
>
> This is a world where Windows runs on virtually every computer and
> putting on a carnival show for an operating system is not helping these
> children at all. I am sure if you contacted Microsoft, they would be
> more than happy to supply you with copies of an older verison of Windows
> and that way, your computers would actually be of service to those
> receiving them..."
> [/quote]
>
> http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2008/12/linux-stop-holding-our-kids-back.html
>
> She "tried Linux during college", and knows enough about it to
> emphatically state that Helios' claims are "grossly over-stated and
> hinge on falsehoods", and yet we're seriously supposed to believe she
> doesn't know it's legally free. Meanwhile, we get a little lecture about
> how resisting Microsoft's domination is "holding our kids back", and
> that Linux PCs are not "of service".
>
> Yeah sure, no bigotry there. Honest.
Was that the same incident that elicited this from "Hadron"?
This was a scheduled class with a pre-determined syllabus. Some COLA
wackjob forthing at the mouth handing out Knobtrix or whatever it was is
not suitable for such a class. Wants to hand our Freeware? Great. Do it
in his Free time.
-- "Hadron", Freedom advocate, <gi19d5$35h$1...@reader.motzarella.org>
I cannot recall.
--
Your love life will be... interesting.
An Old Friend
Whether Linux is "taking over" or not is unimportant.
Would I like to see better acceptance of Linux across the board?
Absolutely. The best way I figured to do that was by using it myself and
succeeding.
When I started at the college, I was told that I would need a copy of
Microsoft Office 2003 or later to work with the documents I'd be sent by
the main office, or I could use the student's computer lab. After I
demonstrated to someone at the school how I could change their document
in OpenOffice and save it in MS Office format, they allowed me to use
OpenOffice, provided I saved in the same format that the file was sent.
The official policy now is to require documents be in Microsoft Office
*format* rather than require documents to be created and altered in
Microsoft Office.
That's a very minor step, but it's one that's in favor of Linux. And one
I'm glad to have had a part in changing, if what I did helped prompt the
change.
amicus_curious
"SomeBloke" <st...@stuff.com> wrote in message
news:iib98n$c8t$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> Strange, I don't recall going into one of the UK's major PC retailers
> (Dixon Stores Group for example) and EVER seeing a PC offered with a GNU/
> Linux distro installed. All they have ever offered is the "PCWorld
> recommend Windows" mantra. Not in my book an honest effort.
>
LOL! Even the companies that do sell Linux based equipment never say
"GNU/Linux"! You are casting yourself as a fanatic.
Of course you won't see much, if any, Linux product on the retail shelves
although I do remember Sam's Club offering a Linux machine some 10 years
ago. Linux cannot even hold together in the on-line merchandising space
where it might have a ghost of a chance to create a niche, such as with Dell
or HP.com orders. I think that some Linux netbooks did manage to make it to
shelves at brick and mortar stores, but I only have heard about them in the
USofA.
Who do you think must make this "honest effort" then? Microsoft does not
and cannot dictate what a retailer puts on the shelf, that is the province
of the store chain's buyer whose job depends on stocking merchandise that
people want to buy. I don't think that they would be willing to stock a
Linux computer unless they were convinced of its merchandise ability.
>>> Just a thought. Isn't that what competition in the market place is all
>>> about, allowing competing products a chance without imposing one
>>> solution?
>>>
>> Competition is offering what some group of consumers want in a manner
>> more optimal than anyone else. That takes more than words, though, it
>> takes a real commitment and some substantial effort to ensure that that
>> group of consumers hears and understands the good news that you are
>> trying to bring to them. Linux vendors and advocates have never had the
>> necessary commitment to achieve that sort of success. Rather they carp
>> and whine about "level playing fields" when what they really want is a
>> change to the rules of the game that gives them some advantage. Even
>> when they get such a thing, as in Europe today, they cannot muster
>> enough energy to win many converts.
>>
>
> Competition is having the same ability to promote your goods and/or
> products in a fair manner. This is hardly Microsoft's way with
> competition is it? I recall how they deliberately attempted to destroy
> Netscape with their restrictive practices. They haven't changed at all.
>
No that is not competition. That is just access to markets. It is illegal
in the USofA to block access to markets by any means, particularly direct
agreements intended to do nothing else. Remember, though, that cozy deals
are allowable if they do not constrict access by more than 40% overall.
Thus Coca-Cola can "conspire" with Burger King to only offer their drink
products and not allow any store to offer PepsiCo products. That is a
partnership, not a barrier, under the law and as long as the 40% test is met
overall, the strategy is used in many markets.
Competition is offering a product for sale that can be directly compared to
some other product.
>>> Isn't just having one option anti-competitive?
>>>
>> Not at all. As we see with Microsoft, they have to spend billions per
>> year evolving their products just to compete with themselves and so get
>> customers to want newer versions of Windows, Office, and other products.
>> Anti-competitive means doing things that are prohibited by law for the
>> express purpose of limiting competition. Just being in a huge market
>> that is difficult to enter on a shoestring is not anti-competitive.
>
> "Doing things that are prohibited by law for the express purpose of
> limiting competition". Ah yes, 'The Microsoft Way'. Get rid of the
> competition and then with no other options available offer a 'choice' of
> different Windows 7 versions. Isn't a choice of one no choice at all?
> Isn't that what we in the West have come to call Communism? Isn't that "A
> Bad Thing"?
>
Your understanding of the political sciences is deficient if you think that
is "Communism". Remember the 40% test, at least in the USofA, as well.
amicus_curious
"JEDIDIAH" <je...@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
news:slrnikjc6...@nomad.mishnet...
>
> What past purchases?
>
Say for example that you purchased Microsoft Office Home and Student Edition
some 5 years ago and are now looking for a new computer. Would you prefer
to buy one where you could continue to use your existing software or one
where you had to replace it?
Perhaps you keep all your old email or at least some treasure trove of past
messages. Would you want your new computer to be able to import them from
your old one?
> There is always a new version of whatever you happen to be running.
> It doesn't matter if you paid for it or not. THAT is how the industry
> works. THAT is how it continues to make money. No one makes any money
> or stays in business if people simply "preserve their investment".
>
You have been getting too much stuff at no apparent cost, Jedidiah! No one
else would buy a new version or whole new product unless that new program
did something that the old one could not do and that they strongly desired
to do. You miss the quintessential part of product marketing, that is to
find a need to fill.
amicus_curious
"DFS" <nospam@dfs_.com> wrote in message
news:iiad9v$s9g$2...@news.eternal-september.org...
> On 2/1/2011 10:58 AM, SomeBloke wrote:
>
>
>> Then think about a level playing field where those that sell the
>> computers that are used by kids aren't locked-in by a certain OS vendor.
>
> Nobody is "locked-in", liar. Dell and HP and EVERY OEM in the world is
> free to sell whatever operating system(s) they want. If you don't like
> that they sell mostly Windows, too bad. Start your own OEM and offer
> Linux systems.
>
Ignoring the notion of "lock-in" as evil, Dell and HP and others are
similarly faced with the cost of adding expertise in Linux problem solving
to their support staff, certainly, as well as what might be the cost of
adding testing for Linux configurations to their Quality Assurance efforts.
Those costs are likely to be rather massive, given these OEM's commitment to
product quality and customer service.
The problem for Dell, et al, is that adding Linux to their mix does not seem
to offer any opportunity for increase sales since a Linux machine gained is
a Windows machine lost.
If there were truly some provable advantage to using Linux on the desktop in
place of Windows, I am sure that some OEM somewhere would leap upon it to
differentiate themselves from the herd. Now they can only really compete on
hardware price. There are plenty of smart fellows working on the technical
staffs of these companies and it is certain that they have investigated
Linux in the past and likely that they continue to do so.
amicus_curious
"Hadron" <hadro...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:iiaovp$vjv$2...@news.eternal-september.org...
I remember a Dilbert panel where the engineers were being urged to be more
innovative and make fewer errors. They called it Project BIFF, meaning "big
improvements for free".
The COLA folk want to buy hardware at Wintel volume prices on a one-off
basis, ignoring the costs involved. They want someone to contribute the
marketing effort without any opportunity for recovery.
They are wishing on a star. Such fervent hoping and belief worked to
resuscitate Tinker Bell, but that was pure fiction.
DFS
> They are wishing on a star. Such fervent hoping and belief worked to
> resuscitate Tinker Bell, but that was pure fiction.
LMAO!!!!!!
Chris Ahlstrom
> On Wed, 02 Feb 2011 17:21:34 -0500, DFS chinwagged:
>
>> The overwhelming majority - I would think 99% or higher - of people who
>> need specialized software for their work (accountants, financial
>> traders, video game developers, music producers, graphic artists, video
>> editors, magazine publishers, architects, engineers, etc) cannot succeed
>> with Linux/open source.
Even if true, so what? They can have their work machines, and their home
machines, and have different operating systems on each.
>> Various advocates (and "advocates") who shriek about MS\Windows dying
>> and Linux taking over are DELUDED.
Of course.
They're as deluded as fellows like DFS who think Microsoft is the be-all and
end-all of computing, while yet comprising only around 10% of the totality
of computing.
> Whether Linux is "taking over" or not is unimportant.
>
> Would I like to see better acceptance of Linux across the board?
> Absolutely. The best way I figured to do that was by using it myself and
> succeeding.
>
> When I started at the college, I was told that I would need a copy of
> Microsoft Office 2003 or later to work with the documents I'd be sent by
> the main office, or I could use the student's computer lab. After I
> demonstrated to someone at the school how I could change their document
> in OpenOffice and save it in MS Office format, they allowed me to use
> OpenOffice, provided I saved in the same format that the file was sent.
> The official policy now is to require documents be in Microsoft Office
> *format* rather than require documents to be created and altered in
> Microsoft Office.
>
> That's a very minor step, but it's one that's in favor of Linux. And one
> I'm glad to have had a part in changing, if what I did helped prompt the
> change.
Not just the change, but the education of a few people!
--
"Freedom is still the most radical idea of all."
-- Nathaniel Branden
JEDIDIAH
No. I want to buy hardware at Atari or Commodore prices.
It's nice that PC hardware finally caught up to that pricepoint now
after about 15 years.
[deletia]
For some of my stuff, I would be perfectly content with existing ARMs
and for others I could be content with a somewhat improved ARM SoC.
--
The best OS in the world is ultimately useless |||
if it is controlled by a Tramiel, Jobs or Gates. / | \
JEDIDIAH
> news:slrnikjc6...@nomad.mishnet...
>
>>
>> What past purchases?
>>
> Say for example that you purchased Microsoft Office Home and Student Edition
> some 5 years ago and are now looking for a new computer. Would you prefer
If you had done that, you would still need to buy new software.
[deletia]
Commercial software gets deprecated and desupported.
That's the nature of the beast.
Rex Ballard
> http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2011/01/why-we-insist-on-linux-on-desktop.html
In general it's a good article, and points out some key issues.
> <quote>
> The title to this article could just as easily have been, "Why We Don't Use
> Windows."
This is a good point, many of these arguments would be justification for using FreeBSD or one of the other BSD variants just as much as Linux. And he fails to point out the ADDITIONAL features Linux has that Windows still doesn't.
> Besides being inflammatory,...well, that's reason enough.
Also, it gets the attention of Microsoft's legal goons who will be looking for ways to "Win at all costs against Linux" - not to mention demanding retractions and other remedial actions.
The "Linux on the Desktop" title is not quite so visible, and doesn't risk trademark damage.
> The fact remains, we do insist on installing Linux with every computer we
> give away.
Key point #1, he is giving these devices away, not selling them for a profit.
This would suggests that he is probably recycling used machines which have been "dumped" by a corporation who is planning on doing an upgrade to Windows 7 or Migration to "Windows on Linux" using virtualization.
> Sure, there are the philosophical reasons. As well, there are financial
> incentives to do so, but in my world...in the world of 1-3 computer installs
> every day of the week...
Normally, when you are installing Windows on a used computer like this, you need to get the installation media from the original manufacturer, with all of the appropriate driver. You THEN have to go to Microsoft to get licenses, because the original OEM licenses were invalidated by the corporate license upgrade.
Microsoft will donate licenses to certain charities, but they also require that all recipients fill out financial statements, proving that they couldn't afford to BUY a computer, or at least an OEM license for $60. The advantage of the donation is that Microsoft can deduct the full MSRP of the license (around $300), rather than just the average price charged to OEMs (around $40).
Microsoft will also sell low-volume OEM licenses to installers, but they have to pre-install Windows on EVERY machine they ship, and they can't give customers the installation media.
> I simply don't want to be bothered with those problems associated with the
> use of a Windows computer.
Lots of problems, especially legal problems, especially when a charity program suddenly gets really popular.
> </quote>
> Big Brother is watching ... so are we
Another reason not to use Windows. You might be able to get it installed, even get the right drivers, but Microsoft could shut it down when it "Phones Home".
He didn't bother to mention some of the features that make Linux better, or the extra software, but he did mention the ability to remotely administer Linux desktop machines aka workstations as easily as remote servers such as those used for web sites all over the world.
It's not really Microsoft's fault. They have only so much money to spend on each release, and they have to pay every person who works on Windows a substantial amount of money for their efforts, especially since they are required to sign contracts and nondisclosure agreements which pretty much prevent them from doing anything else, or even working for another company once they have been hired to work on Windows.
As a result, Microsoft has to prioritize, trying to decide which of the thousands of features of Linux will bring the biggest boost in total revenues and profits. They also look for features that could reduce sales, revenues, and profits - if Microsoft did NOT include them, such as Java and Web Browsers.
Since Microsoft can't afford to do it all, they have to try and make sure that others don't get too familiar with Linux, and discover how much of a difference there really is. So Microsoft also has to hire an army of lawyers and "Reps" who primarily watch out for "defectors" and try to herd them back into line for their annual fleecing.
OEMs generally don't have much choice, they have to buy Windows licenses for all of their machines, because the alternative is Windows prices so high that they wouldn't be able to compete. As I point out before, to get the OEM price, you have to agree to install Windows in every machine. Fail to do that, and the price retroactively jumps to the full MSRP, and you can negotiate from there.
Corporations have a bit more flexibility, especially since they have to replace the Windows operating system installed by the Manufacturer with a corporate image and license anyway. Technically, this is an upgrade, but the corporate licensed install replaces the OEM license. Once the machine is taken out of service, the Windows image has to be removed, and there is no valid Windows license for the device.
The author of the article does point out that he uses Crossover, which does include software licensed from Microsoft (or did at one time).
I have had a few times when I have given someone a Linux Workstation for Christmas - as part of the local "Love Lines" program. They don't pay anything for it, and initially, they think they want Windows, until they realize that Windows isn't free. After about a month of using Linux, they get to the point where they like it better than Windows, even if Windows was free.
Microsoft's policy of revoking the OEM license when Corporate customers discard their corporate PCs has always been a boon to Linux, since a Linux Workstation can be created from a used PC for the price of the installation media divided by the number of PCs configured.
On the other hand, if I could go to Best Buy or any other computer store and pay them $200 to do the "Windows on Linux" installation for me, it would be worth the extra. I've installed Linux dozens, perhaps even hundreds of times, but having someone do it for me is like having a maid or using a laundry service. I could do it, but I have better things to do.
I guess that's why Macs are so popular. You get Linux-Like capabilities, and someone else does the installation and configuration for you.
Rex Ballard
http://www.open4success.org
amicus_curious
"JEDIDIAH" <je...@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
news:slrnikjue...@nomad.mishnet...
> On 2011-02-02, amicus_curious <ac...@sti.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> "JEDIDIAH" <je...@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
>> news:slrnikjc6...@nomad.mishnet...
>>
>>>
>>> What past purchases?
>>>
>> Say for example that you purchased Microsoft Office Home and Student
>> Edition
>> some 5 years ago and are now looking for a new computer. Would you
>> prefer
>
> If you had done that, you would still need to buy new software.
>
Why? It will continue to work just as it had been working all along.
>
> Commercial software gets deprecated and desupported.
>
> That's the nature of the beast.
>
Why would you even need support after years of using the product, silly?
You seem to be unfamiliar with how computers are used.
amicus_curious
"JEDIDIAH" <je...@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
news:slrnikjui...@nomad.mishnet...
Spoken like a typical FOSS freeloader, Jedidiah.
JEDIDIAH
Only a reckless moron wastes money.
Being frugal or a smart shopper is not being a freeloader.
You're just trying to distract from the fact that your lame debating
point just blew up on your face utterly.
JEDIDIAH
>
>
> "JEDIDIAH" <je...@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
> news:slrnikjue...@nomad.mishnet...
>> On 2011-02-02, amicus_curious <ac...@sti.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "JEDIDIAH" <je...@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
>>> news:slrnikjc6...@nomad.mishnet...
>>>
>>>>
>>>> What past purchases?
>>>>
>>> Say for example that you purchased Microsoft Office Home and Student
>>> Edition
>>> some 5 years ago and are now looking for a new computer. Would you
>>> prefer
>>
>> If you had done that, you would still need to buy new software.
>>
> Why? It will continue to work just as it had been working all along.
...until some new revision of the proprietary format everyone thinks
they needs comes along and becomes a bother to everyone.
>
>>
>> Commercial software gets deprecated and desupported.
>>
>> That's the nature of the beast.
>>
> Why would you even need support after years of using the product, silly?
> You seem to be unfamiliar with how computers are used.
Support is for things like bugs and security flaws.
This is just another one of your fantasies like expensive non-PCs.
SomeBloke
<snipped for brevity>
>> "Doing things that are prohibited by law for the express purpose of
>> limiting competition". Ah yes, 'The Microsoft Way'. Get rid of the
>> competition and then with no other options available offer a 'choice'
>> of different Windows 7 versions. Isn't a choice of one no choice at
>> all? Isn't that what we in the West have come to call Communism? Isn't
>> that "A Bad Thing"?
>>
> Your understanding of the political sciences is deficient if you think
> that is "Communism". Remember the 40% test, at least in the USofA, as
> well.
I will admit that the 'Communism' hit was a bit saucy and purely a dig at
the host of your fellow countrymen/women who see 'Communism' at every
whip and flip!
--
I'm always kind, polite and reasonable.... except when I'm not.
amicus_curious
"JEDIDIAH" <je...@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
news:slrnikkgg...@nomad.mishnet...
> On 2011-02-03, amicus_curious <ac...@sti.net> wrote:
>> Why? It will continue to work just as it had been working all along.
>
> ...until some new revision of the proprietary format everyone thinks
> they needs comes along and becomes a bother to everyone.
>
Think about it, Jedidiah! You are losing the thread again. If something
new comes along that everyone wants and cannot stand to be without, that is
the essence of a new product and has nothing to do with being able to do
what you did previously with an older product.
>>
>>>
>>> Commercial software gets deprecated and desupported.
>>>
>>> That's the nature of the beast.
>>>
>> Why would you even need support after years of using the product, silly?
>> You seem to be unfamiliar with how computers are used.
>
> Support is for things like bugs and security flaws.
>
Well, if you had been using a product for a number of years, you would have
either found fixes for any defects that annoyed your or else would have
found some way to live with them. If you haven't bothered to get something
fixed for a number of years, it is not broken to the extent that it denies
you beneficial use.
> This is just another one of your fantasies like expensive non-PCs.
>
What is an "expensive non-PC"? Like a Corvette or Porsche? You are
sputtering again.
amicus_curious
"SomeBloke" <st...@stuff.com> wrote in message
news:iidskd$49v$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
I don't think that is so characteristic, bloke. Rush Limbaugh and Sean
Hannity and some others are certainly over the top in that regard, but they
are either on the low-frequency AM stations or Fox TV. They are really a
small percentage of the population although they make a lot of noise.
amicus_curious
"JEDIDIAH" <je...@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
news:slrnikkgc...@nomad.mishnet...
>>>>
>>>> The COLA folk want to buy hardware at Wintel volume prices on a one-off
>>>> basis, ignoring the costs involved. They want someone to contribute
>>>> the
>>>
>>> No. I want to buy hardware at Atari or Commodore prices.
>>>
>> Spoken like a typical FOSS freeloader, Jedidiah.
>
> Only a reckless moron wastes money.
>
> Being frugal or a smart shopper is not being a freeloader.
>
But demanding that someone give you a low price just because you want it is
not very realistic. You use Linux and do not pay for it. You are a
freeloader by definition. Now it is true that you do not legally owe them
anything, but the "market" for such wares could be calculated as whatever
Microsoft and other commercial companies receive for their similar wares and
you do not pay that price.
> You're just trying to distract from the fact that your lame debating
> point just blew up on your face utterly.
>
You are under a number of other delusions as well, Jedidiah. I said that
"COLA folk want to buy hardware at Wintel volume prices on a one-off basis,
ignoring the costs involved". Your reply that you wanted even lower prices
is hardly an effective riposte that would cause my point to be defeated!
LOL!
Rex Ballard
> "JEDIDIAH" <je...@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
> news:slrnikjue...@nomad.mishnet...
> > On 2011-02-02, amicus_curious <ac...@sti.net> wrote:
> >> Say for example that you purchased Microsoft Office Home and Student
> >> Edition some 5 years ago and are now looking for a new computer.
You have a WindowsXP computer that that has been running for 5 years? Didn't you know that since about 2005, Windows XP computers were supposed to be "Disposable" because it cost more to fix them after a virus hit that it did to just replace it with a brand new computer?
To be fair, this was for corporate users and assumed that the computer would be fixed "desk-side" with the PC user waiting until the service person had re-imaged the computer for about 8 hours, then the user would spend up to 40 hours getting the computer configured back to the way he had it before it crashed. All this in addition to the "down-time" from when the attack was first discovered to the time when the desk-side support staff could actually get to the computer and fix it - up to 3 business days. Total lost productivity could be as high as 80 staff hours, at a productivity rate of about $100 an hour (which is actually very low for most IT workers). So to fix the computer would cost you $8,0000 to $10,000, while replacing it could cost as little as $500. Of course this presumed that the new computer would not need any additional information.
Especially with laptops, most companies now buy enough spares so that they can overnight a new laptop with a new image - then the user can send back the old machine. Most corporate users also purchase external USB drives, so they can back up ALL of their important information, including downloaded software, personal and work-related files, e-mail, and chat transcripts.
If you bought Microsoft Office 5 years ago, that would have been Office 2003 aka Office XP, which is still in widespread use throughout most corporations, who are also still holding on to Windows XP, largely because they DON'T want to buy new software for everything.
In 1992, IBM had a financial crisis when they assumed "if we build it they will buy". In 1991, they announced MVS 4.0 and OS/2 2.0, and assumed that most customers would complete the upgrade by the end of 1992.
Unfortunately, upgrading MVS 4.0 also meant that you had to pay for hardware upgrades (new processors and memory), upgrades to CICS, run-time software libraries, applications, and utilities. It could cost as much as $5 million in upgrades to upgrade a $4 million dollar machine that had been depreciating for 2-3 years - to MVS 4.0. So corporate customers began looking for alternatives so that they could reduce the number of machines that had to be upgraded. There was a surge of sales of UNIX systems, especially Sun/6 servers with 6 processors in SMP, or Pyramid servers, with up to 12 processors in NUMA configuration.
OS/2 2.0 had a similar fate. To get OS/2 2.0, you had to buy a MicroChannel machine, and IBM refused to document a number of pins on the bus, most of which would eventually be needed to provide 32 bit memory addressing (expanding from a few megabytes to up to 4 gigabytes. And there was no commitment from IBM to license these additional pins in a timely manner. As a result, corporate IT managers decided that they would be better off with Windows 3.1, even though it was notoriously unstable. Windows 3.0 had a reputation for crashing 2-3 times per hour. The problem was so bad that Microsoft put an "Auto-save" feature in Word and Excel to save the memory to file every 5 minutes. Windows 3.1 was a little better, it only crashed 4-5 times a day. OS/2 1.2 was very reliable, but OS/2 2.0 had a race condition that was triggered when you turned on disk caching. Recovery could take up to 4 hours. Running without caching made the performance very poor, especially on the early machines which often had only 2-4 megabytes of memory.
IBM revenues began to fall, enough to cause the stock price to drop rapidly in 1991, and even more in 1992. John Akers was fired, and for the first time, an outsider, Lou Gerstner, was hired. It took Gerstner about a year to "Teach the elephant to dance" - sales reps were told to "shut up and listen", and to sell the customers what THEY wanted, including AIX systems. The shift went from sales to consulting. The consultants were supposed to be "technology agnostic" and were told NOT to try and switch people from their existing products or desired products to IBM's proprietary products.
> > If you had done that, you would still need to buy new software.
Not necessarily. Microsoft WINDOWS licenses are not transferrable, but the Microsoft Office licenses are transferrable - all you have to do is remove Office from the machine on which it is currently installed.
> Why? It will continue to work just as it had been working all along.
> > Commercial software gets deprecated and desupported.
IBM got stung by this in 1991-1992, and Microsoft began to feel the pain in 2003, when they tried to tell corporate customers that they MUST upgrade their NT 4.0 systems to Windows 2000 or Windows 2003. Again, there was a problem with this. The pricing model of Windows NT 4.0 was very low, to try and capture as many new server projects as possible. Microsoft had campaigned to replace UNIX and Novell servers with NT 4.0 servers. But Windows 2003 pricing was radically higher. Concurrent users had been redefined so that an NT 4.0 computer that might only need 10 concurrent user licenses, as a Windows 2003 server might need thousands of Client Access Licenses - at around $60 each.
Microsoft also offered "Enterprise Edition" which let you run an unlimited number of users, but cost $20,000 per CPU in license fees. Corporations who had switched some of their applications from UNIX to Windows had found that it took as many as 50 quad-processor NT 4 servers to replace 2 quad-processor Solaris servers. When faced with the prospect of paying $2 million for Windows licenses, many corporations began to start putting Linux on as many of those servers as they could. The applications that could ONLY run on Windows were put on the newest and fastest machines - making it look like all of the machines were sold with Windows, but the older machines were converted to Linux. It created a huge opening for Linux. Microsoft notices the shift, and tried to broker a deal where Daryl McBride would attempt to sue some big-name Linux users, like IBM, GM, and so on, in an attempt to scare people away from using Linux.
> > That's the nature of the beast.
There's only so much that customers are willing to pay. When a monopolist attempts to get more than that, even if it was the same overall revenue and profit margins, customers will begin to explore alternatives. Railroads replaced barges, trucks, buses, and trolleys and replaced trains, and cars replaced buses and trolleys.
Windows XP was introduced in 2000, and has been through 3 major "service packs". Many corporations, paying annual support costs based on promised upgrades to "Longhorn" which turned into the Vista Nightmare, now OWN their XP licenses, as well as their Office 2003 licenses. They can't be revoked.
Microsoft's strategy for "forced upgrades" in the past has been to make sure that there were no hardware drivers for the newer machines being produced. As a result, when the company started to replace the oldest machines with newer machines, they would HAVE to upgrade to the new hardware and software.
> Why would you even need support after years of using the product, silly?
> You seem to be unfamiliar with how computers are used.
The problem, in the past, was that Microsoft could stop supporting new hardware, which would force users to upgrade to the new OS which didn't support the older applications, which would force upgrades of software like Office, Visio, and Project.
The problem is that there is a LOT of 3rd party software running on PCs that can't be upgraded to Windows 7. As a result, many corporations are exploring the option of isolating the hardware from the operating system. Using Linux as the native operating system on a machine licensed for Windows 7 makes it possible to run Windows XP on these newer machines as a Linux application.
In many cases, Windows runs faster than it does in native mode. As an added bonus, applications that run on both Windows XP and Linux often run faster on Linux, including most Java applications, OpenOffice, and FireFox. And Linux applications for common functions based on industry standards, such as e-mail, chat, and media players, as well as third party applications like Adobe Acrobat and Flash, and Real Media's players, run as fast or faster on Linux. The improved speed has mostly to do with how Linux manages memory and hard drive buffering, including L1, L2, and L3 cache, as well as MMU.
Microsoft seems to be aware of all this, and is doing everything they can to keep Linux off the retail shelves, especially on high-performance PCs.
Microsoft has already lost the battle with UNIX. Apple based OS/X on the BSD operating system, added a really nice graphical interface, and has completely exploded the myth that UNIX is "Too complicated for mere mortals". These days, most reviewers of Vista and Windows 7 conclude with "I'd rather have a Mac".
Apple had to be really extraordinary to break that Microsoft monopoly. They had to open thousands of their own stores in the biggest shopping centers, train people to sell the Mac, and they also introduced other devices based on the BSD based iOS, which was optimized for hand-held devices like media players and cell phones. Ironically, many of the features of the iPhone 4 and the iPod touch were available in the Sharp Zaurus - but Sharp couldn't get retailers to risk the wrath of Microsoft to put the Zaurus on public display in a usable form. On the Zaurus, the cell phone feature came on a CompactFlash memory chip, along with additional memory. There was even a WiFi capability.
But as Retailers have begun to see that UNIX and Linux have resulted in some very profitable devices, such as iPods, iPhones, iPads, Kindles, Nooks, Cruz, and other Linux and Android based tablets, Microsoft is beginning to lose that grip on retailers.
Several companies are already looking at ways to provide NetBook style technology that will NOT permit piracy installation of Windows - mostly by using the ARM chips. Microsoft has countered by attempting to sue for patent infringement - risking their rights to those patents, as well as liability for patents filed by GNU and the Linux Foundation as well as Open Patents. Microsoft has also tried to produce Windows 7 for the ARM chips, but the ARM chips normally use Linux directly to the hardware - eliminating the delays of initializing the BIOS then probing for hardware - since most of the hardware is "On Chip" on ARM based devices.
Linux on ARM has been around for over a decade, in devices such as Linksys Routers initially, and now on a wide variety of other Linux "Appliances". In all cases, the companies don't have to display the Linux logo, but somewhere in the user's manual, they have to provide a URL where the user can find the links to the Linux and GNU source code. It's the only clue that the device is using Linux in most cases.
With ARM providing better support for graphical devices, including video chips, HDMI support, and flat-panel screen display management, Linux on ARM has begun to show up on media players, flat panel monitors, and HDTV systems. Some have opted for BSD based systems, and other UNIX based Real Time Operating systems, making Linux/UNIX almost ubiquitous. It's also very profitable. Many companies donate 1/10th of 1% of their revenue after the first $million in profit - to OSS organizations. Microsoft usually wants 25% off the top, or half the corporate profits if the company is really profitable.
There is a good chance that most people in North America now have more Linux and BSD devices than Windows devices.
Hadron
> On Wednesday, February 2, 2011 10:51:24 PM UTC-5, amicus_curious wrote:
>> "JEDIDIAH" <je...@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
>> news:slrnikjue...@nomad.mishnet...
>> > On 2011-02-02, amicus_curious <ac...@sti.net> wrote:
>
>> >> Say for example that you purchased Microsoft Office Home and Student
>> >> Edition some 5 years ago and are now looking for a new computer.
>
> You have a WindowsXP computer that that has been running for 5 years? Didn't
> you know that since about 2005, Windows XP computers were supposed to be
> "Disposable" because it cost more to fix them after a virus hit that it did to
> just replace it with a brand new computer?
Didnt you know that anyone with half a clue can still be running XP just
fine?
As for your "cost more to..." : that is another outright lie for which
you have ZERO proof.
Why do you do it?
I realise Chris thinks you're a genius, but he also thinks you're a
lying blowhard at times too. This is one of those times.
One-Shot , One-Kill
"chrisv" <chr...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:8agjk6pqje46kdnk3...@4ax.com...
>
> Yeah, slimy rats, like you, might call such customer-hostile behavior
> "continued product support".
more documented lies from the "chrisv" stupid fscking turd.
JEDIDIAH
>
>
> "JEDIDIAH" <je...@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
> news:slrnikkgg...@nomad.mishnet...
>> On 2011-02-03, amicus_curious <ac...@sti.net> wrote:
>
>>> Why? It will continue to work just as it had been working all along.
>>
>> ...until some new revision of the proprietary format everyone thinks
>> they needs comes along and becomes a bother to everyone.
>>
> Think about it, Jedidiah! You are losing the thread again. If something
Not at all.
"Keeping up with the Joneses" is the whole reason for ever even touching
your flagship app here. You're the one that chose to fixate on office despite
the fact that it is nothing special for the vast majority of people. That even
includes the format support.
If you are fine with a 5 year old copy of office then dumping it entirely
for the available free option is no big.
> new comes along that everyone wants and cannot stand to be without, that is
> the essence of a new product and has nothing to do with being able to do
Now you're just engaging in mindless NewSpeak.
No. Version 10 of Monopolyware is not a separate product from Version 9
of Monopolyware.
[deletia]
You need to buy an imagination somewhere. Perhaps then you will manage
to come up with more compelling examples.
Robin T Cox
> On 2/2/2011 9:35 AM, Robin T Cox wrote:
>> Big Steel wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 01 Feb 2011 12:29:19 +0000, Robin T Cox<nom...@nomail.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Who is we? Not everyone is on board with your take on things.
>>>
>>
>> "We" refers to the Helios Initiative, whose work is referred to in the
>> article at the following link:
>>
>> http://www.heliosinitiative.org/
>>
>
> Like I care? You are mistaken if you think I care. :)
You're also wasting your own time if you think that I care whether you care.
:)
--
chrisv
> rat wrote:
>>
>> new comes along that everyone wants and cannot stand to be without, that is
>> the essence of a new product and has nothing to do with being able to do
>
> Now you're just engaging in mindless NewSpeak.
>
> No. Version 10 of Monopolyware is not a separate product from Version 9
>of Monopolyware.
Work processors and spreadsheets are mature technologies. For the
vast majority of users, the software produced over a decade ago
suffices. Even rat knows this.
There's no reason the world should continue to pay the Micro$oft Corp
*billions* of dollars a year for these "already bought and paid for"
products.
--
"MS seem to have run with the ball with Windows 7." - "True Linux
advocate" Hadron Quark
One-Shot , One-Kill
fscking asshole "chrisv" <chr...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:5ullk65tefgqs7ro7...@4ax.com...
"chrisv" is a liar.
"chrisv" is a worthless piece of shit.
JEDIDIAH
> news:slrnikkgc...@nomad.mishnet...
>
>>>>>
>>>>> The COLA folk want to buy hardware at Wintel volume prices on a one-off
>>>>> basis, ignoring the costs involved. They want someone to contribute
>>>>> the
>>>>
>>>> No. I want to buy hardware at Atari or Commodore prices.
>>>>
>>> Spoken like a typical FOSS freeloader, Jedidiah.
>>
>> Only a reckless moron wastes money.
>>
>> Being frugal or a smart shopper is not being a freeloader.
>>
> But demanding that someone give you a low price just because you want it is
That is of course a gross misrepsentation.
[deletia]
You want us to believe that low PC prices can only come from the Microsoft
monopoly when I have just cited two examples that flatly contradict your
assertion.
One simply does not need the monopoly.
Homer
> On 2/2/2011 3:28 PM, Homer wrote:
>> That's what Helios meant by "Linux is a wasted effort on most adult
>> computer users". Generally speaking, children are not bigots; they're
>> not old enough to have been indoctrinated by right-wing politics and
>> commercialism.
>>
>> It wasn't a criticism of Linux, it was a criticism of the sheeple
>> that comprise the adult masses.
>
> But not you 8 "advocates" here on cola. You would never be
> brainwashed into supporting the worst computer software in the world
> simply because it's not Microsoft.
Correct. I use Free Software because:
a) GNU/Linux is technically superior to Windows,
b) Free Software provides autonomy and control, and
c) It allows me to use PCs without supporting gangsters like Microsoft
I discovered this by myself, and drew my own conclusions from
considerable experience and documented evidence.
So what's your excuse?
--
K. | Ancient Chinese Proverb:
http://slated.org | "The road to Hell is paved with
Fedora 8 (Werewolf) on sky | ignorant twits who know nothing
kernel 2.6.31.5, up 40 days | about GNU/Linux."
DFS
> Verily I say unto thee, that criminal stalker DFS spake thusly:
>> On 2/2/2011 3:28 PM, Homer wrote:
>
>>> That's what Helios meant by "Linux is a wasted effort on most adult
>>> computer users". Generally speaking, children are not bigots; they're
>>> not old enough to have been indoctrinated by right-wing politics and
>>> commercialism.
>>>
>>> It wasn't a criticism of Linux, it was a criticism of the sheeple
>>> that comprise the adult masses.
>>
>> But not you 8 "advocates" here on cola. You would never be
>> brainwashed into supporting the worst computer software in the world
>> simply because it's not Microsoft.
>
> Correct. I use Free Software because:
>
> a) GNU/Linux is technically superior to Windows,
Technically, GNU/Linux/OSS is a joke:
- open source?
- any old hackjob "developer" can contribute?
- poor documentation?
- pre-1.0 releases for 14 years?
- 500+ distros?
- distros derived from distros derived from distros derived from distros?
- entire distros developed and maintained by anonymous user names?
- distros with 6-month fixed date release cycles?
- text files scattered all over?
- case-sensitive file names?
- command line required at some point?
- rude adolescent "community"?
- device names like /dev/sbpcd12?
- 30 different file systems?
- not one good native game?
- ridiculously poor audio/video apps?
- apps that have to be started from the command line?
- how to install apps not in the repos?
- configure, make, make install?
- theftware of ideas from Windows and Mac?
- /tmp, /var/tmp?
- hidden .config folders?
- spinning cubes and burning/freezing windows?
- device lists that include extremely obsolete technology?
- Freshmeat burial ground for abandoned crapware?
- no central store for config settings?
- package managers that give you no install options whatsoever?
- 80% of desktop users glom onto one distro?
- desktop copy/paste gives different file modify dates from command line
copy/paste?
- hundreds of (cr)apps and utilities and manpages to duplicate what
Windows offers with Group Policy Editor and Local Security Policy tools
> b) Free Software provides autonomy and control, and
By "autonomy and control" you mean the ability to make free-of-cost
copies of Linux for your multiple computers. You could not care less
about anything else.
> c) It allows me to use PCs without supporting gangsters like Microsoft
Like you give a shit about supporting "gangsters". You're a
cigarette-smoker - you financially support peddlers of poison that
literally kill millions each year. And you suck down and bow to their
advertising as fast as you suck down their tobacco.
As for anti-competitive, let us know when you port your Linux/open
source projects to Windows.
> I discovered this by myself,
How so? Mark Bilk insists Microsoft and "Wintrolls" prevent people from
learning about Linux.
> and drew my own conclusions from
> considerable experience and documented evidence.
>
> So what's your excuse?
Excuses are for Linux "advocates".
I use Windows on PC because it runs the best software and games and the
most hardware. And it's a far more consistent, reliable experience. And
has better documentation, and appearance.
DFS
> If you bought Microsoft Office 5 years ago, that would have been Office 2003 aka Office XP, which is still in widespread use throughout most corporations,
FYI: Office XP is actually "Office 2002".
Gordon
>
> "Keeping up with the Joneses" is the whole reason for ever even touching
> your flagship app here. You're the one that chose to fixate on office despite
> the fact that it is nothing special for the vast majority of people. That even
> includes the format support.
>
> If you are fine with a 5 year old copy of office then dumping it entirely
> for the available free option is no big.
And in fact I know from personal experience in the training and support
world, 75% of Office users only use 25% of the functionality...but you
have to buy the WHOLE LOT rather than cut-down versions that you could
add functionality to if you need it....(of course those numbers are
estimates, and apply to ANY Office suite, but the lower the cost the
less it matters...)
chrisv
>I know from personal experience in the training and support
>world, 75% of Office users only use 25% of the functionality...but you
>have to buy the WHOLE LOT rather than cut-down versions that you could
>add functionality to if you need it....
I'd say that using 25% of the functionality is wildly optimistic.
In many companies, *every* office worker gets the entire M$ Office
suite!
The _typical_ usage of all this very expensive software?
Outlook - email and scheduling of meetings
Word - light word processing
Excess - organizing data in rows and columns
Access - not used
Infopath - not used
PowerPoint - not used
OneNote - not used
Publisher - not used
Wow.
chrisv
>Excess - organizing data in rows and columns
Meant to say "Excel" there...
One-Shot , One-Kill
worthless fscking asshole "chrisv" <chr...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:epslk6pnc0rfs68ch...@4ax.com...
> Gordon wrote:
>
>>I know from personal experience in the training and support
>>world, 75% of Office users only use 25% of the functionality...but you
>>have to buy the WHOLE LOT rather than cut-down versions that you could
>>add functionality to if you need it....
>
> I'd say that using 25% of the functionality is wildly optimistic.
I would say that using 25% of your stupid fscking brain is wildly
optimistic.
Gordon
Your spell check is "excelling".... :-)
Gordon
Quite agree. And many people don't even know about Outlook other than
sending and receiving emails...
And don't even get me started on macros....
Chris Ahlstrom
> chrisv wrote:
>
>>Excess - organizing data in rows and columns
>
> Meant to say "Excel" there...
"Excess" works for me :-)
--
The moon is made of green cheese.
-- John Heywood
DFS
> And many people don't even know about Outlook other than
> sending and receiving emails...
You mean Outlook users don't use the Calendar function every day of
their work life?
If that's your claim, then you've never been in anything but a tiny
office where they schedule meetings on blackboards.
> And don't even get me started on macros....
We won't; you couldn't even get yourself started on them.
But in case you want to try, here's one way to read your Outlook
Calendar from Access or Excel:
Dim olApp As New Outlook.Application
Dim olCalendar As Object, olAppt As Object
Dim recurPattern As Outlook.RecurrencePattern
Set olCalendar =
olApp.GetNamespace("MAPI").GetDefaultFolder(olFolderCalendar)
For i = 1 To olCalendar.Items.Count
Set olAppt = olCalendar.Items(i)
<read/write Outlook appointments>
Set olAppt = Nothing
Next i
Set olCalendar = Nothing
Set olApp = Nothing
You've been able to do this for years in MS Office, but in the year
2011, OpenOffice or Evolution still can't compete with old versions of
MS Office.
Another example: below are various built-in Access commands you can
exeute from code to control your environment. OpenOffice Base fails, as
usual.
acCmdAboutMicrosoftAccess
acCmdAddInManager
acCmdAddToNewGroup
acCmdAddWatch
acCmdAdvancedFilterSort
acCmdAlignBottom
acCmdAlignCenter
acCmdAlignLeft
acCmdAlignmentAndSizing
acCmdAlignMiddle
acCmdAlignRight
acCmdAlignToGrid
acCmdAlignTop
acCmdAlignToShortest
acCmdAlignToTallest
acCmdAnalyzePerformance
acCmdAnalyzeTable
acCmdAnswerWizard
acCmdApplyDefault
acCmdApplyFilterSort
acCmdAppMaximize
acCmdAppMinimize
acCmdAppMove
acCmdAppRestore
acCmdAppSize
acCmdArrangeIconsAuto
acCmdArrangeIconsByCreated
acCmdArrangeIconsByModified
acCmdArrangeIconsByName
acCmdArrangeIconsByType
acCmdAutoCorrect
acCmdAutoDial
acCmdAutoFormat
acCmdBackgroundPicture
acCmdBackgroundSound
acCmdBackup
acCmdBookmarksClearAll
acCmdBookmarksNext
acCmdBookmarksPrevious
acCmdBookmarksToggle
acCmdBringToFront
acCmdCallStack
acCmdChangeToCheckBox
acCmdChangeToComboBox
acCmdChangeToCommandButton
acCmdChangeToImage
acCmdChangeToLabel
acCmdChangeToListBox
acCmdChangeToOptionButton
acCmdChangeToTextBox
acCmdChangeToToggleButton
acCmdChartSortAscByTotal
acCmdChartSortDescByTotal
acCmdClearAll
acCmdClearAllBreakpoints
acCmdClearGrid
acCmdClearHyperlink
acCmdClearItemDefaults
acCmdClose
acCmdCloseWindow
acCmdColumnWidth
acCmdCompactDatabase
acCmdCompileAllModules
acCmdCompileAndSaveAllModules
acCmdCompileLoadedModules
acCmdCompleteWord
acCmdConditionalFormatting
acCmdConnection
acCmdControlWizardsToggle
acCmdConvertDatabase
acCmdConvertMacrosToVisualBasic
acCmdCopy
acCmdCopyDatabaseFile
acCmdCopyHyperlink
acCmdCreateMenuFromMacro
acCmdCreateRelationship
acCmdCreateReplica
acCmdCreateShortcut
acCmdCreateShortcutMenuFromMacro
acCmdCreateToolbarFromMacro
acCmdCut
acCmdDataAccessPageAddToPage
acCmdDataAccessPageBrowse
acCmdDataAccessPageDesignView
acCmdDataAccessPageFieldListRefresh
acCmdDatabaseProperties
acCmdDatabaseSplitter
acCmdDataEntry
acCmdDataOutline
acCmdDatasheetView
acCmdDateAndTime
acCmdDebugWindow
acCmdDelete
acCmdDeleteGroup
acCmdDeletePage
acCmdDeleteQueryColumn
acCmdDeleteRecord
acCmdDeleteRows
acCmdDeleteTab
acCmdDeleteTable
acCmdDeleteTableColumn
acCmdDeleteWatch
acCmdDemote
acCmdDesignView
acCmdDiagramAddRelatedTables
acCmdDiagramAutosizeSelectedTables
acCmdDiagramDeleteRelationship
acCmdDiagramLayoutDiagram
acCmdDiagramLayoutSelection
acCmdDiagramModifyUserDefinedView
acCmdDiagramNewLabel
acCmdDiagramNewTable
acCmdDiagramRecalculatePageBreaks
acCmdDiagramShowRelationshipLabels
acCmdDiagramViewPageBreaks
acCmdDocMaximize
acCmdDocMinimize
acCmdDocMove
acCmdDocRestore
acCmdDocSize
acCmdDocumenter
acCmdDropSQLDatabase
acCmdDuplicate
acCmdEditHyperlink
acCmdEditingAllowed
acCmdEditRelationship
acCmdEditTriggers
acCmdEditWatch
acCmdEncryptDecryptDatabase
acCmdEnd
acCmdExit
acCmdExport
acCmdFavoritesAddTo
acCmdFavoritesOpen
acCmdFieldList
acCmdFilterByForm
acCmdFilterBySelection
acCmdFilterExcludingSelection
acCmdFind
acCmdFindNext
acCmdFindNextWordUnderCursor
acCmdFindPrevious
acCmdFindPrevWordUnderCursor
acCmdFitToWindow
acCmdFont
acCmdFormatCells
acCmdFormHdrFtr
acCmdFormView
acCmdFreezeColumn
acCmdGoBack
acCmdGoContinue
acCmdGoForward
acCmdGroupByTable
acCmdGroupControls
acCmdHideColumns
acCmdHidePane
acCmdHideTable
acCmdHorizontalSpacingDecrease
acCmdHorizontalSpacingIncrease
acCmdHorizontalSpacingMakeEqual
acCmdHyperlinkDisplayText
acCmdImport
acCmdIndent
acCmdIndexes
acCmdInsertActiveXControl
acCmdInsertChart
acCmdInsertFile
acCmdInsertFileIntoModule
acCmdInsertHyperlink
acCmdInsertLookupColumn
acCmdInsertLookupField
acCmdInsertMovieFromFile
acCmdInsertObject
acCmdInsertPage
acCmdInsertPicture
acCmdInsertPivotTable
acCmdInsertProcedure
acCmdInsertQueryColumn
acCmdInsertRows
acCmdInsertSpreadsheet
acCmdInsertSubdatasheet
acCmdInsertTableColumn
acCmdInsertUnboundSection
acCmdInvokeBuilder
acCmdJoinProperties
acCmdLastPosition
acCmdLayoutPreview
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One-Shot , One-Kill
useless fscking asshole "chrisv" <chr...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:abtlk692mc9ostvl3...@4ax.com...
> chrisv wrote:
nothing important.
"chrisv" is a liar.
"chrisv" is a useless piece of shit.
chrisv
>Homer wrote:
>>
>> http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2008/12/linux-stop-holding-our-kids-back.html
>>
>> She "tried Linux during college", and knows enough about it to
>> emphatically state that Helios' claims are "grossly over-stated and
>> hinge on falsehoods", and yet we're seriously supposed to believe she
>> doesn't know it's legally free. Meanwhile, we get a little lecture about
>> how resisting Microsoft's domination is "holding our kids back", and
>> that Linux PCs are not "of service".
>>
>> Yeah sure, no bigotry there. Honest.
>
>Was that the same incident that elicited this from "Hadron"?
Yes, I think so.
> This was a scheduled class with a pre-determined syllabus. Some COLA
> wackjob forthing at the mouth handing out Knobtrix or whatever it was is
> not suitable for such a class. Wants to hand our Freeware? Great. Do it
> in his Free time.
> -- "Hadron", Freedom advocate, <gi19d5$35h$1...@reader.motzarella.org>
>
>I cannot recall.
Such a "true Linux advocate", our "Hadron" is.
--
"How does the GPL protect YOUR freedom by insisting that people who
use your work pass it on?" - "Hadron", getting it all wrong, as he
attacks the GPL
Snit
9:37 AM:
> JEDIDIAH wrote:
>
>> rat wrote:
>>>
>>> new comes along that everyone wants and cannot stand to be without, that is
>>> the essence of a new product and has nothing to do with being able to do
>>
>> Now you're just engaging in mindless NewSpeak.
>>
>> No. Version 10 of Monopolyware is not a separate product from Version 9
>> of Monopolyware.
>
> Work processors and spreadsheets are mature technologies. For the
> vast majority of users, the software produced over a decade ago
> suffices. Even rat knows this.
There have been a lot of advances in word processors over the last 10 years.
Compare Word 2007 / 2008 with Word 2007 / 2008. They are quite different.
> There's no reason the world should continue to pay the Micro$oft Corp
> *billions* of dollars a year for these "already bought and paid for"
> products.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
DFS
> JEDIDIAH wrote:
>
>> rat wrote:
>>>
>>> new comes along that everyone wants and cannot stand to be without, that is
>>> the essence of a new product and has nothing to do with being able to do
>>
>> Now you're just engaging in mindless NewSpeak.
>>
>> No. Version 10 of Monopolyware is not a separate product from Version 9
>> of Monopolyware.
>
> Work processors and spreadsheets are mature technologies. For the
> vast majority of users, the software produced over a decade ago
> suffices. Even rat knows this.
>
> There's no reason the world should continue to pay the Micro$oft Corp
> *billions* of dollars a year for these "already bought and paid for"
> products.
So don't buy them, fscking idiot.
Nobody's forcing you or anyone else to buy MS products.
DFS
> Such a "true Linux advocate", our "Hadron" is.
Hell of a lot better than you. Hadron actually uses Linux full-time to
make a living, promotes and explains various Linux apps here on cola,
and doesn't buy lots of Windows PCs.
DFS
> If you are fine with a 5 year old copy of office then dumping it entirely
> for the available free option is no big.
It might not be a biggie to you, but it is a huge biggie to Office users
who have lots of documents (.xls and .ppt and .doc) whose appearance,
margins, tables, charts, page numbers, etc WILL be altered when they
open them in OpenOffice.
RonB
> Such a "true Linux advocate", our "Hadron" is.
Maybe he lives in upside down world, where everything is the opposite. But
most likely he's just full of shit.
--
RonB
Registered Linux User #498581
CentOS 5.5 or VectorLinux Deluxe 6.0
An Old Friend
from COLA chinwagged:
> Technically, GNU/Linux/OSS is a joke:
Funny how I succeed with a "joke," then.
If the tools I use are a joke, then I'm laughing all the way to the bank
with the earnings I get from the tools I use.
It seems to bug you to no end that I am able to use the software to do my
job effectively, doesn't it? Today's class was on the Baroque era. The
presentation I created had several audio and video clips from copyleft
and permission-granted sources, including Spring from Vivaldi's Four
Seasons, three pieces from Handel's Messiah, Wanda Landowska's recording
of "The Harmonious Blacksmith," a Domenico Scarlatti sonata, and Handel's
"Zadok the Priest." It used historical information obtained in part from
the 11th edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica.
There were no issues with my netbook with Ubuntu 10.10 and the Panasonic
projector in class, and have never been such issues in this class. I was
able, with LibreOffice, to have the slide be presented on the projector
while my own lecture notes were on my netbook screen simultaneously. (A
distinct advantage of Ubuntu over the Windows 7 Starter operating system
that was included with my netbook and which I removed upon purchase,
which can only mirror what is on the netbook screen to the projector.)
amicus_curious
"Gordon" <gordon...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:iiet6t$cbs$2...@news.eternal-september.org...
Well, Gordo, the chumps of the world are not the folks paying Microsoft the
billions of bucks each year for new copies of MS Office. You obviously do
not work for a major corporation, else you would know more about how MS
Office is integrated in most companies' operations and how they have
developed their own methods to use MS Office interfaces.
The reason Open Office consistently fails to be chosen by these businesses
is precisely the part that you do not seem to understand. Get a job with a
Fortune 500 company and you will see. If you just sit in the dark and
commiserate with COLA folk, you will be ignorant forever.
> And don't even get me started on macros....
Not a very open mind there! LOL!
amicus_curious
"JEDIDIAH" <je...@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
news:slrniklkp...@nomad.mishnet...
> On 2011-02-03, amicus_curious <ac...@sti.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> "JEDIDIAH" <je...@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
>> news:slrnikkgc...@nomad.mishnet...
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The COLA folk want to buy hardware at Wintel volume prices on a
>>>>>> one-off
>>>>>> basis, ignoring the costs involved. They want someone to contribute
>>>>>> the
>>>>>
>>>>> No. I want to buy hardware at Atari or Commodore prices.
>>>>>
>>>> Spoken like a typical FOSS freeloader, Jedidiah.
>>>
>>> Only a reckless moron wastes money.
>>>
>>> Being frugal or a smart shopper is not being a freeloader.
>>>
>> But demanding that someone give you a low price just because you want it
>> is
>
> That is of course a gross misrepsentation.
>
> [deletia]
>
> You want us to believe that low PC prices can only come from the
> Microsoft
> monopoly when I have just cited two examples that flatly contradict your
> assertion.
>
Well, if you are satisfied with toys, then you can get by on a lot less
investment. Go get one of those cute OLPCs, I think they are in your price
range.
DFS
> On Thu, 03 Feb 2011 12:46:10 -0500, someone who is attempting to hide
> from COLA chinwagged:
>
>> Technically, GNU/Linux/OSS is a joke:
>
> Funny how I succeed with a "joke," then.
>
> If the tools I use are a joke, then I'm laughing all the way to the bank
> with the earnings I get from the tools I use.
Jokes are supposed to make you laugh...
> It seems to bug you to no end that I am able to use the software to do my
> job effectively, doesn't it?
Old Friend, did you notice my response to Homer wasn't directed at you?
You have an extremely inflated view of your importance to me.
I will say this, though: you're one of the most polite and "effective"
(for want of a better word) Linux advocates I've ever seen on cola.
Kelsey Bjarnason (asshole) and Lusotec are pretty good Linux/OSS
promoters, too.
> Today's class was on the Baroque era. The
> presentation I created had several audio and video clips from copyleft
> and permission-granted sources, including Spring from Vivaldi's Four
> Seasons, three pieces from Handel's Messiah, Wanda Landowska's recording
> of "The Harmonious Blacksmith," a Domenico Scarlatti sonata, and Handel's
> "Zadok the Priest." It used historical information obtained in part from
> the 11th edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica.
I like classical music, and in particular piano.
Some of the most intense music I've ever heard - every bit as
sonic-mind-blowing to me as The Who or Led Zeppelin - is Mozart's famous
Requiem Mass in D minor (especially these movements):
Rex tremendae majestatis
Recordare, Jesu pie
Confutatis maledictis
Lacrimosa dies illa
> There were no issues with my netbook with Ubuntu 10.10 and the Panasonic
> projector in class, and have never been such issues in this class. I was
> able, with LibreOffice, to have the slide be presented on the projector
> while my own lecture notes were on my netbook screen simultaneously. (A
> distinct advantage of Ubuntu over the Windows 7 Starter operating system
> that was included with my netbook and which I removed upon purchase,
> which can only mirror what is on the netbook screen to the projector.)
That's nice.
Guess how Ubuntu was able to provide you that functionality for free? By
the sale of Mark Shuttleworth's proprietary digital security company
Thawte. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thawte
Meanwhile, as of March 2010 Canonical was losing money on Ubuntu: "We’re
not profitable now."
http://www.thevarguy.com/2010/03/04/ubuntu-canonicals-new-ceo-discloses-top-priorities/
You better pony up 'til it hurts, or someday soon there might be no
Ubuntu. And then the collective wailing of 80% of all Linux desktop
users will sound like a requiem...
An Old Friend
> On 2/3/2011 5:14 PM, An Old Friend wrote:
>> On Thu, 03 Feb 2011 12:46:10 -0500, someone who is attempting to hide
>> from COLA chinwagged:
>>
>>> Technically, GNU/Linux/OSS is a joke:
>>
>> Funny how I succeed with a "joke," then.
>>
>> If the tools I use are a joke, then I'm laughing all the way to the
>> bank with the earnings I get from the tools I use.
>
> Jokes are supposed to make you laugh...
>
>
>
>
>> It seems to bug you to no end that I am able to use the software to do
>> my job effectively, doesn't it?
>
> Old Friend, did you notice my response to Homer wasn't directed at you?
> You have an extremely inflated view of your importance to me.
>
> I will say this, though: you're one of the most polite and "effective"
> (for want of a better word) Linux advocates I've ever seen on cola.
>
> Kelsey Bjarnason (asshole) and Lusotec are pretty good Linux/OSS
> promoters, too.
>
>
>
>
>> Today's class was on the Baroque era. The presentation I created had
>> several audio and video clips from copyleft and permission-granted
>> sources, including Spring from Vivaldi's Four Seasons, three pieces
>> from Handel's Messiah, Wanda Landowska's recording of "The Harmonious
>> Blacksmith," a Domenico Scarlatti sonata, and Handel's "Zadok the
>> Priest." It used historical information obtained in part from the 11th
>> edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica.
>
> I like classical music, and in particular piano.
Chopin and Debussy have composed some of my favorite music for the
instrument.
> Some of the most intense music I've ever heard - every bit as
> sonic-mind-blowing to me as The Who or Led Zeppelin - is Mozart's famous
> Requiem Mass in D minor (especially these movements):
>
> Rex tremendae majestatis
> Recordare, Jesu pie
> Confutatis maledictis
> Lacrimosa dies illa
The Requiem is an amazing work. I still get goosebumps when the final
Prestissimo takes place in Beethoven's Ninth Symphony.
>> There were no issues with my netbook with Ubuntu 10.10 and the
>> Panasonic projector in class, and have never been such issues in this
>> class. I was able, with LibreOffice, to have the slide be presented on
>> the projector while my own lecture notes were on my netbook screen
>> simultaneously. (A distinct advantage of Ubuntu over the Windows 7
>> Starter operating system that was included with my netbook and which I
>> removed upon purchase, which can only mirror what is on the netbook
>> screen to the projector.)
>
> That's nice.
>
> Guess how Ubuntu was able to provide you that functionality for free? By
> the sale of Mark Shuttleworth's proprietary digital security company
> Thawte. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thawte
>
> Meanwhile, as of March 2010 Canonical was losing money on Ubuntu: "We’re
> not profitable now."
> http://www.thevarguy.com/2010/03/04/ubuntu-canonicals-new-ceo-discloses-
top-priorities/
>
> You better pony up 'til it hurts, or someday soon there might be no
> Ubuntu. And then the collective wailing of 80% of all Linux desktop
> users will sound like a requiem...
Nah, I'll just switch to Mint/Debian. Or maybe just Debian. I've
supported Canonical and will continue to do so, but if the project goes
under, it's not the end of the world.
If Microsoft went under, it would be an interesting series of events.
First, who would take over the development of Windows? Of MS Office? Or
would it become open-source itself? Would development/bugfixes just cease
and people continue to use the software in perpetuity?
There's some security in the fact that I'm using one of many Debian-based
distros. So if Ubuntu suddenly stopped working tomorrow and no further
updates were ever released, I'd just use another Debian-based distro or
use Debian itself. And since Debian doesn't have the same kind of
corporate backing that, say, Fedora has, I'm not basing the OS on the
success/failure of a company.
JEDIDIAH
No it isn't. Quit trying to pretend you've ever been anywhere near
a "major corporation". Not that they are the bulk of the market anyways.
[deletia]
--
On the subject of kilobyte being "redefined" to mean 1000 bytes...
When I was a wee lad, I was taught that SI units were |||
meant to be computationally convenient rather than just / | \
arbitrarily assigned.
JEDIDIAH
>
>
> "JEDIDIAH" <je...@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
> news:slrniklkp...@nomad.mishnet...
>> On 2011-02-03, amicus_curious <ac...@sti.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> "JEDIDIAH" <je...@nomad.mishnet> wrote in message
>>> news:slrnikkgc...@nomad.mishnet...
>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The COLA folk want to buy hardware at Wintel volume prices on a
>>>>>>> one-off
>>>>>>> basis, ignoring the costs involved. They want someone to contribute
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No. I want to buy hardware at Atari or Commodore prices.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Spoken like a typical FOSS freeloader, Jedidiah.
>>>>
>>>> Only a reckless moron wastes money.
>>>>
>>>> Being frugal or a smart shopper is not being a freeloader.
>>>>
>>> But demanding that someone give you a low price just because you want it
>>> is
>>
>> That is of course a gross misrepsentation.
>>
>> [deletia]
>>
>> You want us to believe that low PC prices can only come from the
>> Microsoft
>> monopoly when I have just cited two examples that flatly contradict your
>> assertion.
>>
> Well, if you are satisfied with toys, then you can get by on a lot less
Another fine fantasy of yours.
Back in the day, the cheaper machines I reference were the ones that were
actually far more advanced. Paradoxically enough, they were cheaper. Go figure.
[deletia]
If suitably powerful alternatives are not plentiful then that's due to the
pressure that monopolies exert on the free market and alternatives.
TomB
> On Thu, 03 Feb 2011 18:04:46 -0500, DFS chinwagged:
>
>>> Panasonic projector in class, and have never been such issues in
>>> this class. I was able, with LibreOffice, to have the slide be
>>> presented on the projector while my own lecture notes were on my
>>> netbook screen simultaneously. (A distinct advantage of Ubuntu
>>> over the Windows 7 Starter operating system that was included with
>>> my netbook and which I removed upon purchase, which can only
>>> mirror what is on the netbook screen to the projector.)
>>
>> That's nice.
>>
>> Guess how Ubuntu was able to provide you that functionality for
>> free? By the sale of Mark Shuttleworth's proprietary digital
>> security company Thawte. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thawte
>>
>> Meanwhile, as of March 2010 Canonical was losing money on Ubuntu:
>> "We’re not profitable now."
>> http://www.thevarguy.com/2010/03/04/ubuntu-canonicals-new-ceo-discloses-top-priorities/
>>
>> You better pony up 'til it hurts, or someday soon there might be no
>> Ubuntu. And then the collective wailing of 80% of all Linux
>> desktop users will sound like a requiem...
>
> Nah, I'll just switch to Mint/Debian. Or maybe just Debian. I've
> supported Canonical and will continue to do so, but if the project
> goes under, it's not the end of the world.
Exactly. And you will retain most, if not all, of the functionality
provided to you by Canonical right now.
And what's up with DFS' claim that Canonical can offer you two
independant screens thanks to Thawte? It's nonsense.
--
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
~ Albert Einstein
DFS
>> Nah, I'll just switch to Mint/Debian. Or maybe just Debian. I've
>> supported Canonical and will continue to do so, but if the project
>> goes under, it's not the end of the world.
>
> Exactly. And you will retain most, if not all, of the functionality
> provided to you by Canonical right now.
And what happens when Linux Mint shuts down, or the founder dictates
only non-supporters of Israel can run his distro?
========================================================================
"I don't want any money or help coming from people who support the
actions of the Israeli government....I also said I didn't want Israeli
to use Linux Mint..."
http://eclelef.blogspot.com/search/label/Politics
from the personal blog (dead link) of Clement Lefebvre, founder and lead
developer of Linux Mint
========================================================================
> And what's up with DFS' claim that Canonical can offer you two
> independant screens thanks to Thawte? It's nonsense.
I didn't mean there was a technical link between the two. I meant
Shuttleworth can fund "Free" Ubuntu only because he made a lot of money
by selling his proprietary technology.
Linux/open source is a charity case, through and through, 100% dependent
on proprietary products to fund its development.
TomB
> On 2/4/2011 12:38 AM, TomB wrote:
>
>>> Nah, I'll just switch to Mint/Debian. Or maybe just Debian. I've
>>> supported Canonical and will continue to do so, but if the project
>>> goes under, it's not the end of the world.
>>
>> Exactly. And you will retain most, if not all, of the functionality
>> provided to you by Canonical right now.
>
>
> And what happens when Linux Mint shuts down, or the founder dictates
> only non-supporters of Israel can run his distro?
Then there's still Debian. And when Debian disappears, there's still
Fedora. And when Fedora disappears, there's still Gentoo. And when
Gentoo disappears, there's still...
You get the picture.
What if they all shut down? Then it's December 2012, and the Mayas
were right after all.
>> And what's up with DFS' claim that Canonical can offer you two
>> independant screens thanks to Thawte? It's nonsense.
>
> I didn't mean there was a technical link between the two. I meant
> Shuttleworth can fund "Free" Ubuntu only because he made a lot of
> money by selling his proprietary technology.
>
> Linux/open source is a charity case, through and through, 100%
> dependent on proprietary products to fund its development.
There is /some/ truth to that. Hyperbole noted though.
But why do you figure so many companies support GNU/Linux and F/OSS in
general? Right: the benefits they get from doing so.
--
When the going gets though, the tough get going.
~ Billy Ocean