[News] OpenGL Gets DirectX/Microsoft's Knickers in a Twist
Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
OpenCL and OpenGL take on DirectX
,----[ Quote ]
| OpenGL is now more competitive with DirectX than ever. Microsoft's stumble
| with Vista and its DirectX/Direct3D version 10 has also helped to stall its
| momentum in the market. Microsoft plans to add OpenCL-like support for GPGPU
| computing into DirectX 11 in Windows 7, but Apple's OpenCL, which is designed
| to work closely with OpenGL code, will arrive first and with broad industry
| support. Apple has also released OpenCL as a royalty-free, open standard
| anyone can implement on any platform.
`----
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/12/16/opencl_and_opengl_take_on_directx.html
Recent:
NVIDIA 180.08 Beta Driver Adds In OpenGL 3.0
,----[ Quote ]
| Less than a week after releasing the NVIDIA 180.06 Linux display driver,
| NVIDIA has released a new set of beta drivers for their supported alternative
| operating systems. NVIDIA has released the 180.08 driver, which adds in
| OpenGL 3.0 support and contains fixes for their new video acceleration API.
`----
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Njg2MQ
NVIDIA Delivers Beta OpenGL 3.0 Linux Driver
,----[ Quote ]
| The OpenGL 3.0 and GLSL 1.30 specification were released back in August
| during SIGGRAPH 2008. Just days later NVIDIA had delivered a beta driver for
| Windows that added OpenGL 3.0 functionality, but Linux, FreeBSD, and Solaris
| users were left in the dark. Two months later though NVIDIA has now published
| a beta Linux driver that implements most of the latest GL/GLSL specification.
`----
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=nvidia_linux_ogl3&num=1
SGI Further Opens Its OpenGL Contributions
http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/sgi-further-opens-its-opengl-contributions,548151.shtml
SGI relicenses OpenGL: "A huge gift to the free software community"
,----[ Quote ]
| After nine months, an open secret can finally be acknowledged: The OpenGL
| code that is responsible for 3-D acceleration on GNU/Linux, which was
| released by SGI in 1999, has been running on licenses that were accepted by
| neither the Free Software Foundation (FSF) nor the Open Source Initiative.
| Today, however, the FSF has announced that the licenses in question, the SGI
| Free License B and the GLX Public License, have been rewritten after months
| of negotiation between the FSF and SGI. The problem is now resolved, and the
| result is a code contribution that the FSF ranks as one of the greatest given
| to the community by a proprietary company.
`----
http://www.linux.com/feature/148339
Thank you SGI, for freeing the GNU/Linux 3D desktop!
,----[ Quote ]
| In January of 2008, software code at the heart of GNU/Linux 3D applications
| was discovered to be non-free—a potential disaster for free software
| advocates hoping to see advanced graphical acceleration now common on modern
| operating systems.
`----
http://www.fsf.org/news/thank-you-sgi
Unigine Tropics Sets Linux OpenGL Precedence
,----[ Quote ]
| Unigine Tropics is set around a tropical environment (hence its name) and it
| runs through various scenes of an island during both the day and night. Some
| of its technical features though include a dynamic sky with light scattering,
| live water with a surf zone and caustics, special materials for vegetation,
| HDR rendering, parallel split shadow map for the sun, depth of field, and
| real-time ambient occlusion. Whether you are interested in benchmarking or
| not, this is one impressive graphics demo just to watch -- permitting your
| graphics card can handle it!
`----
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=unigine_tropics&num=1
OpenGL 3.0 - A Big Step in the Right Direction
,----[ Quote ]
| GL 3.0 takes two important steps to moving open standard graphics forward in
| a major way. The first is to provide core and ARB extension access to the new
| and exciting capabilities of hardware. The second is to create a roadmap that
| allows developers to see what parts of core specifications will be going away
| in the future, also providing the OpenGL ARB with a way to introduce new
| features faster.
`----
http://fireuser.com/blog/opengl_30_a_big_step_in_the_right_direction/
OpenGL 3 Announced
,----[ Quote ]
| The OpenGL Architecture Review Board officially announced OpenGL 3 on August
| 8th 2007 at the Siggraph Birds of a Feather (BOF) in San Diego, CA.
|
| [...]
|
| OpenGL 3 is a true industry effort with broad support from all vendors in the
| ARB. The OpenGL 3 specification is on track to be finalized at the next
| face-to-face meeting of the OpenGL ARB, at the end of August.
`----
http://www.osnews.com/story.php/18446/OpenGL-3-Announced/
Related:
DirectX 10 vs OpenGL 2.1 Graphics
,----[ Quote ]
| Now check out OpenGL 2.1 vs. DirectX 10 / 9 graphics.
`----
http://www.winmatrix.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13647
OpenGL is far from dead
,----[ Quote ]
| Khronos took over the running of the OpenGL Architecture Review
| Board last Autumn and has managed to get chip-makers like Nvidia
| to open up DX10-esque hardware features in the OpenGL system.
| "The extension mechanism has also allowed manufacturers of high
| end cards to gracefully expose DirectX 10 features on Windows
| XP," Splash said.
`----
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=39830
Apple’s Leopard with DirectX-like OpenGL? More hints.
,----[ Quote ]
| This means that the main person behind the newest OpenGL - which will support
| all the new graphics technology available today - is employed by Apple.
`----
http://liquidat.wordpress.com/2007/07/18/apples-leopard-with-directx-like-opengl-more-hints/
Valve survey shows hundreds of thousands steamed up
,----[ Quote ]
| However, the survey also shows how far Microsoft et al have to go
| - currently, DX10-capable gamers (ie those with Vista and a DX10 card)
| make up 1.21% of the gaming population.
| ^^^^^
`----
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=40049
DAAMIT! AMD's DX10 is not up to scratch
,----[ Quote ]
| The gap isn't much, but there's a good 10-15 per cent difference between
| the two cards, and this is rather disappointing for a card that has
| been repeatedly marketed as future proof.
`----
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=40048
Inside CNET Labs: Lamenting DirectX 10
,----[ Quote ]
| We compared the same title side by side on a system running DX10 on Vista to
| the same title on an identical system running DX9 on XP, and it's
| difficult--sometimes impossible--to detect significant differences in how the
| games look or perform.
`----
http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9750536-1.html
Adding DX10 has "done nothing"
,----[ Quote ]
| Having tested the DX10 rendering path against the DX9 version, the chaps at
| the fantastically named Elite Bastards say that they can't "Help but feel a
| little disappointed to see yet another game where the inclusion of DirectX 10
| functionality has done nothing for the title either graphically or from
| performance standpoint".
`----
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=41043
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
iEYEARECAAYFAklO9mAACgkQU4xAY3RXLo5MywCeNVNtC5aKlLDWk1gtSsWyhgCh
xNoAn14+ss8PbCoegyC/TizGe9GWd14z
=lpvR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Matt
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> OpenCL and OpenGL take on DirectX
>
> ,----[ Quote ]
> | OpenGL is now more competitive with DirectX than ever. Microsoft's stumble
> | with Vista and its DirectX/Direct3D version 10 has also helped to stall its
> | momentum in the market. Microsoft plans to add OpenCL-like support for GPGPU
> | computing into DirectX 11 in Windows 7, but Apple's OpenCL, which is designed
> | to work closely with OpenGL code, will arrive first and with broad industry
> | support. Apple has also released OpenCL as a royalty-free, open standard
> | anyone can implement on any platform.
But I don't see whether they have or haven't licensed the source code
with a GPL-like license or even opened it for inspection. That seems
troublesome.
> `----
>
> http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/12/16/opencl_and_opengl_take_on_directx.html
Hadron
MS always had openGL support. Or rather the video drivers did. What you
DONT need is ANOTHER open standard from Apple.
Are you guys nuts?
--
"Maybe you can buy a Saturday Night Special and blow your POS brains out."
-- Rick <no...@nomail.com> in comp.os.linux.advocacy
Peter Köhlmann
> Matt <ma...@themattfella.xxxyyz.com> writes:
>
>> Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>
>>> OpenCL and OpenGL take on DirectX
>>>
>>> ,----[ Quote ]
>>> | OpenGL is now more competitive with DirectX than ever. Microsoft's
>>> stumble | with Vista and its DirectX/Direct3D version 10 has also
>>> helped to stall its | momentum in the market. Microsoft plans to add
>>> OpenCL-like support for GPGPU | computing into DirectX 11 in Windows
>>> 7, but Apple's OpenCL, which is designed | to work closely with
>>> OpenGL code, will arrive first and with broad industry |
>>> support. Apple has also released OpenCL as a royalty-free, open
>>> standard | anyone can implement on any platform.
>>
>>
>> But I don't see whether they have or haven't licensed the source code
>> with a GPL-like license or even opened it for inspection. That seems
>> troublesome.
>>
>>
>>> `----
>>>
>>>
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/12/16/opencl_and_opengl_take_on_directx.html
>
> MS always had openGL support.
They did not /always/ have OpenGL support
And in Vista they downgraded OpenGL rather sharply
> Or rather the video drivers did.
Right. MS did very little of it
> What you
> DONT need is ANOTHER open standard from Apple.
>
> Are you guys nuts?
>
Do you even have the slightest idea what OpenCL is?
And who worked on that *open* standard? Hint: It wasn't apple. They are
just the first to implemet it.
And no, it is not meant to /replace/ OpenGL, it is meant to /augment/ it.
Leave it to Hadron Quark, the dimwittest wintroll in COLA, to completely
miss the point once again.
Are you Snot Glassers smarter twin in your other life?
--
My other computer is your windows box
Chris Ahlstrom
this bit o' wisdom:
> Hadron wrote:
>>
>> MS always had openGL support.
>
> They did not /always/ have OpenGL support
> And in Vista they downgraded OpenGL rather sharply
>
>> Or rather the video drivers did.
>
> Right. MS did very little of it
>
>> What you DONT need is ANOTHER open standard from Apple.
>>
>> Are you guys nuts?
>
> Do you even have the slightest idea what OpenCL is?
> And who worked on that *open* standard? Hint: It wasn't apple. They are
> just the first to implemet it.
> And no, it is not meant to /replace/ OpenGL, it is meant to /augment/ it.
>
> Leave it to Hadron Quark, the dimwittest wintroll in COLA, to completely
> miss the point once again.
He was too busy tittering over this sig in his "quote bin":
"Maybe you can buy a Saturday Night Special and blow your POS brains
out."
-- Rick <no...@nomail.com> in comp.os.linux.advocacy
That's LHC gloating over goading a COLA poster into anger.
That's Hadron's famous "advocacy" at work.
--
What this country needs is a good five cent nickel.
Hadron
You do not have a clue about the subject at hand moron.
Why do you think that SOME games run cross platform *natively* ?
Answer : they are written in openGL.
Get the existing stuff used - not more feather brained geek smuddying
the water AGAIN.
its this fannying around that got OGL left behind in the first place.
But of course COLA and reality are two different things ....
--
So how do we destroy Microsoft?
Microsoft is doing the job quite nicely, imploding under its own weight."
-- AZ Nomad <azno...@PremoveOBthisOX.COM> in comp.os.linux.advocacy
Peter Köhlmann
Idiot.
Now get google going and read what OpenCL is.
Hint: It is not at all what you think it is.
Whenever one thinks that you could impossibly come up with dumber posts,
you sure surprise anybody here. You can obviously always get dumber. And
you just did.
Now how about a rerun of your tripwire blunder, "kernel hacker" Hadron
Quark? By now you should be ready to repost misrepresented claims
--
Another name for a Windows tutorial is crash course
The Ghost In The Machine
<hadro...@gmail.com>
wrote
on Mon, 22 Dec 2008 21:16:30 +0100
<giosmb$9fc$4...@edwardhall.motzarella.org>:
> Matt <ma...@themattfella.xxxyyz.com> writes:
>
>> Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>
>>> OpenCL and OpenGL take on DirectX
>>>
>>> ,----[ Quote ]
>>> | OpenGL is now more competitive with DirectX than ever. Microsoft's
>>> stumble | with Vista and its DirectX/Direct3D version 10 has also
>>> helped to stall its | momentum in the market. Microsoft plans to add
>>> OpenCL-like support for GPGPU | computing into DirectX 11 in Windows
>>> 7, but Apple's OpenCL, which is designed | to work closely with
>>> OpenGL code, will arrive first and with broad industry |
>>> support. Apple has also released OpenCL as a royalty-free, open
>>> standard | anyone can implement on any platform.
>>
>>
>> But I don't see whether they have or haven't licensed the source code
>> with a GPL-like license or even opened it for inspection. That seems
>> troublesome.
>>
>>
>>> `----
>>>
>>> http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/12/16/opencl_and_opengl_take_on_directx.html
>
> MS always had openGL support. Or rather the video drivers did. What you
> DONT need is ANOTHER open standard from Apple.
>
> Are you guys nuts?
>
We must be. After all, this is Khronos's spec; therefore
Linux is to blame...
http://www.opengl.org/news/comments/khronos_group_announces_release_of_opencl_1.0_specification/
http://www.khronos.org/opencl/
http://www.apple.com/macosx/snowleopard/
The second page in particular sums up the intended purpose
of OpenCL reasonably well:
OpenCL (Open Computing Language) is the first open, royalty-free
standard for general-purpose parallel programming of heterogeneous
systems. OpenCL provides a uniform programming environment for
software developers to write efficient, portable code for
high-performance compute servers, desktop computer systems and
handheld devices using a diverse mix of multi-core CPUs, GPUs,
Cell-type architectures and other parallel processors such as DSPs.
Of course, one might quibble as to whether this is indeed
the first, as opposed to such notables as Illiac IV (which
ran a variant of Fortran with some odd syntax to indicate
vectors), various Crays, and the Connection Machine (which
apparently ran a variant of LISP).
For its part Direct3D 11 will offer some new features as well,
among them more secure video/graphics data and compute shaders.
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Direct3D-11-with-New-Features-in-Windows-7-97394.shtml
The article gives no firm date, though Build 7004 is out as of
sometime very early this morning (2008-Dec-22 03:31 UTC), so
it's in alpha, at least.
--
#191, ewi...@earthlink.net
fortune: not found
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Tim Smith
Hadron <hadro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> MS always had openGL support. Or rather the video drivers did. What you
> DONT need is ANOTHER open standard from Apple.
>
> Are you guys nuts?
Yes, we do need it. It is not what you think it is:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCL>
--
--Tim Smith
Tim Smith
Peter Kohlmann <peter.k...@arcor.de> wrote:
> > What you
> > DONT need is ANOTHER open standard from Apple.
> >
> > Are you guys nuts?
> >
>
> Do you even have the slightest idea what OpenCL is?
> And who worked on that *open* standard? Hint: It wasn't apple. They are
> just the first to implemet it.
It was based on a proposal from Apple, as can be seen from the SIGGRAPH
presentation from the editor of the standard:
<http://s08.idav.ucdavis.edu/munshi-opencl.pdf>
and from the OpenCL overview at Khronos:
<http://www.khronos.org/developers/library/overview/opencl_overview.pdf>
If you check the current spec, here:
<http://www.khronos.org/registry/cl/specs/opencl-1.0.29.pdf>
you'll find that of the people acknowledged for their contributions,
Apple employees are the biggest group. Here's the breakdown by company:
21 Apple
14 Intel
12 AMD
7 NVIDIA
5 IBM
3 ARM
3 Ericsson
2 Codeplay
2 Electronic Arts
2 Kestrel Institute
2 Movidia
2 Nokia
2 RapidMind
2 Texas Instruments
1 Broadcom
1 Blizzard
1 Freescale
1 Imagination Technologies
1 Khronos
1 Qualcomm
1 Renesas
1 Seaweed Systems
1 Sony
1 Symbian
The editor of the spec is from Apple. Note also that Apple owns the
trademark on OpenCL, which they have licensed to Khronos.
--
--Tim Smith
Hadron
No. We dont need it.
What we need is to convince people to use what we have got.
--
o how do we destroy Microsoft?"
-- An unknown author in unknown
Peter Köhlmann
> Tim Smith <reply_i...@mouse-potato.com> writes:
>
>> In article <giosmb$9fc$4...@edwardhall.motzarella.org>,
>> Hadron <hadro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> MS always had openGL support. Or rather the video drivers did. What you
>>> DONT need is ANOTHER open standard from Apple.
>>>
>>> Are you guys nuts?
>>
>> Yes, we do need it. It is not what you think it is:
>>
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCL>
>
> No. We dont need it.
>
> What we need is to convince people to use what we have got.
>
Another fine "true linux advocacy post" from the
"true linux advocate", "kernel hacker", "emacs user", "swapfile expert", "X
specialist", "CUPS guru", "USB-disk server admin", "defragger
professional", "newsreader magician", "hardware maven", "time
coordinator", "email sage", "tripwire wizard" and "OSS culling committee
chairman" Hadron Quark, aka Hans Schneider, aka Richard, aka Damian
O'Leary, aka Steve Townsend, aka Ubuntu King
--
Only two things are infinite,
the Universe and Stupidity.
And I'm not quite sure about the former.
- Albert Einstein
Wolfgang Draxinger
> Answer : they are written in openGL.
We're not talking about OpenGL here, we're talking about OpenCL
(Zee Ell)
<http://khronos.org/opencl/>
You should really learn to carefully read a text and to some
recherche, before saying/writing something stupid.
In some cases it's good practice to <ROT13>FGSH</ROT13>.
Wolfgang Draxinger
P.S.: I AM advocating the use of OpenGL and open standards. As
such I can't stand people who go fanatically about it and
ridicule the humble efforts the OSS community takes, to gain
some market share. One gains nothing by insulting other people.
--
E-Mail address works, Jabber: hexa...@jabber.org, ICQ: 134682867
Hadron
> Hadron wrote:
>
>> Answer : they are written in openGL.
>
> We're not talking about OpenGL here, we're talking about OpenCL
> (Zee Ell)
> <http://khronos.org/opencl/>
Actually the original article was.
But you snipped it.
>
> You should really learn to carefully read a text and to some
> recherche, before saying/writing something stupid.
And you should read the thread.
>
> In some cases it's good practice to <ROT13>FGSH</ROT13>.
>
> Wolfgang Draxinger
>
> P.S.: I AM advocating the use of OpenGL and open standards. As
As I do. What I do NOT advocate is yet another "initiative" with Apple
involved which takes the eye off stuff which is still not supported
properly by the entertainment industry for one.
OpenCl is very linked with OpenGL and GPUs.
How about selling OpenGL to developers first??
OpenGL is already available cross platform for gaming and simulations.
All openCL will do NOW is muddy the waters.
> such I can't stand people who go fanatically about it and
> ridicule the humble efforts the OSS community takes, to gain
> some market share. One gains nothing by insulting other people.
--
"Off the top of my head, I can't tell you which sites. They are ones that
throw up some kind of dialog, I change the user agent and look at them
again, then move on."
-- Rick <no...@nomail.com> telling lies in comp.os.linux.advocacy
Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Matt on Monday 22 December 2008 19:00 : \____
>
>
> Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> OpenCL and OpenGL take on DirectX
>>
>> ,----[ Quote ]
>> | OpenGL is now more competitive with DirectX than ever. Microsoft's stumble
>> | with Vista and its DirectX/Direct3D version 10 has also helped to stall
>> | its momentum in the market. Microsoft plans to add OpenCL-like support for
>> | GPGPU computing into DirectX 11 in Windows 7, but Apple's OpenCL, which is
>> | designed to work closely with OpenGL code, will arrive first and with
>> | broad industry support. Apple has also released OpenCL as a royalty-free,
>> | open standard anyone can implement on any platform.
>
>
> But I don't see whether they have or haven't licensed the source code
> with a GPL-like license or even opened it for inspection. That seems
> troublesome.
It even received the blessings of the FSF. It's all good.
- --
~~ Best of wishes
"Linux is a very complete and sophisticated operating system. And there is a
lot of work being done to improve it in and of itself, particularly to make it
easier to use and easier for people to set up on their personal computers."
--Paul Maritz, senior vice-president, Microsoft
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
iEYEARECAAYFAklQPs8ACgkQU4xAY3RXLo43QACfeud4EjBc+9ae3+hU5a7edH2c
1tYAoKaepNGDVscE5Lr2+xuHG0ukGNGj
=WeK6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Wolfgang Draxinger
> OpenCl is very linked with OpenGL and GPUs.
No it's not. OpenCL is about simplifying the use of special
purpose multicore processors like the Cell or the upcomming
Larabee. Heck, you could even use it to develop programs for
supercomputers. If you do graphics with that stuff is a whole
different story. OpenCL is not intended to replace GLSL.
It's intended to replace propritary systems like CUDA. That
CUDA's first runtime environment was a multistream processor
based of the GeForce8 architecture was due to the developer of
CUDA - they had the architecture ready to use.
> As I do. What I do NOT advocate is yet another "initiative"
> with Apple involved which takes the eye off stuff which is
> still not supported properly by the entertainment industry for
> one.
I don't like some aspects of Apple, to be precise, I don't like
how it mutated from a innovator in IT into a lifestyle accescior
trademark. But one thing is for sure: The BIG entertainment
industry goes only to where the money is. And still Apple has a
larger market share on the multimedia desktop as Linux. Sad but
true. And Apple has become all about entertainment.
So what are the odds, that entertainment software will be
published for MacOS X vs. Linux? DirectX is a Microsoft only
API, and game studios finally feel, that they've got locked in.
When they finally decide to support other plattforms, they will
go for Apple first, since those are the machines
with "Entertainment" all written on it. But Apple also means
OpenGL for graphics, of which Linux directly profits. For two
reasons:
* OpenGL applications are inherently easy to port between
platforms - you have to replace only a small layer of Framework
* MacOS X builds on a BSD system, this makes it even easier to
port to Linux
Already Blizzard is publishing WoW for MacOS X and they're
planning a Linux version, too. I'm pretty sure that, if WoW
would have been locked into DirectX this wouldn't be done. But
Blizzard deliberately choose MacOS X as target plattform, as it
gains more subscriptions to WoW.
And in recent news, Myst/Uru Online is going to be open sourced
unter GPL license. I'm pretty sure, we'll see Linux port soon
enough.
And don't forget that though OpenGL has been called "Open" for a
long time, but actually it was under the control of SGI. And
there hasn't been a single free (as in speech) reference
implementation of OpenGL and there still isn't. Mesa3D is
feature complete, but it never went through a compliance test,
so the Mesa3D project can't advertise with being _a_ OpenGL
implementation. It's "merely" a implementation of the
specification.
And as there is a OSS implementation of the OpenGL spec, there
will be a OSS implementation of the OpenCL spec. And it will be
in competition with commercial implementations. And you should
be glad, that a big company like Apple plays the early adoptor
and takes the risk. Once OpenCL is established in a larger user
base those will likely port to Linux and a OSS OpenCL
implementation. Just for the record: OpenGL was avaliable on
Windows years before it was avaliable on Linux. There were only
CSS implementations for expensive graphics workstations, and if
it were not for Microsoft, we'd have no cheap OpenGL capable
consumer hardware, but only propritary APIs like the dead for
good Glide.
Further I'd like to remind you, that Apple is now main developer
of two core OSS projects: CUPS (you want to print stuff, don't
you) and Webkit (Konqueror anyone?)
Wolfgang Draxinger
Tim Smith
Hadron <hadro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> MS always had openGL support. Or rather the video drivers did. What you
> >> DONT need is ANOTHER open standard from Apple.
> >>
> >> Are you guys nuts?
> >
> > Yes, we do need it. It is not what you think it is:
> >
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCL>
>
> No. We dont need it.
>
> What we need is to convince people to use what we have got.
What we've got now are several vendor-specific systems (CUDA from
NVidia, and Stream Computing SDK from AMD, for example). You don't
think having a portable, standard way to do GPGPU stuff is something we
need!?
--
--Tim Smith
Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Wolfgang Draxinger on Tuesday 23 December 2008 01:00 : \____
> P.S.: I AM advocating the use of OpenGL and open standards. As
> such I can't stand people who go fanatically about it and
> ridicule the humble efforts the OSS community takes, to gain
> some market share. One gains nothing by insulting other people.
You're relying to a troll that got expelled from various newsgroups for
deliberately insulting people. Don't waste your time with it.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
iEYEARECAAYFAklQVj8ACgkQU4xAY3RXLo5joACeJf6IdEz2eDDqdkhPFXb1kuNi
0DkAoK36UdNzggkri3tk070OUe8IB07j
=hXjA
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Matt
That answers my objection/FUD that the first implementations of OpenCL
apparently will not be FOSS. I claim pretty often that new software
niches are usually opened by proprietary software. When the niche is
well-defined and stops changing, it is easier for FOSS to come in and do
the job right. So I feel a little foolish that I didn't notice the
scenario you describe. I also feel very grateful when I see another
FOSS advocate who isn't a blind fanatic---somebody who sees steps along
a path of improvement.
Somehow I am not as optimistic about the mixed road taken by Qt ...
> Just for the record: OpenGL was avaliable on
> Windows years before it was avaliable on Linux. There were only
> CSS implementations for expensive graphics workstations, and if
> it were not for Microsoft, we'd have no cheap OpenGL capable
> consumer hardware, but only propritary APIs like the dead for
> good Glide.
>
> Further I'd like to remind you, that Apple is now main developer
> of two core OSS projects: CUPS (you want to print stuff, don't
> you) and Webkit (Konqueror anyone?)
>
> Wolfgang Draxinger
Thank you for a very informative post.
Matt
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> ____/ Matt on Monday 22 December 2008 19:00 : \____
>
>>
>> Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>
>>> OpenCL and OpenGL take on DirectX
>>>
>>> ,----[ Quote ]
>>> | OpenGL is now more competitive with DirectX than ever. Microsoft's stumble
>>> | with Vista and its DirectX/Direct3D version 10 has also helped to stall
>>> | its momentum in the market. Microsoft plans to add OpenCL-like support for
>>> | GPGPU computing into DirectX 11 in Windows 7, but Apple's OpenCL, which is
>>> | designed to work closely with OpenGL code, will arrive first and with
>>> | broad industry support. Apple has also released OpenCL as a royalty-free,
>>> | open standard anyone can implement on any platform.
>>
>> But I don't see whether they have or haven't licensed the source code
>> with a GPL-like license or even opened it for inspection. That seems
>> troublesome.
>
> It even received the blessings of the FSF. It's all good.
Well, that is encouraging.
I gather from Wolfgang's post that the standard is open, but the first
implementation is not. That gives FSF and FOSS makers something to work
on ...
Hadron
No. I dont. At this time we need a shove of the existing standards. And
b "we" I mean the Linux side. Gods knows its having enough difficulty
keeping up and getting SW vendors on their side.
--
"XP can't be selling well, or we'd have the wintrolls crowing about it all
over the advocacy newsgroups."
comp.os.linux.advocacy - where they put the lunacy in advocacy
Peter Köhlmann
> Tim Smith <reply_i...@mouse-potato.com> writes:
>
>> In article <gip6m5$qjj$1...@edwardhall.motzarella.org>,
>> Hadron <hadro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> MS always had openGL support. Or rather the video drivers did. What
>>> >> you DONT need is ANOTHER open standard from Apple.
>>> >>
>>> >> Are you guys nuts?
>>> >
>>> > Yes, we do need it. It is not what you think it is:
>>> >
>>> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCL>
>>>
>>> No. We dont need it.
>>>
>>> What we need is to convince people to use what we have got.
>>
>> What we've got now are several vendor-specific systems (CUDA from
>> NVidia, and Stream Computing SDK from AMD, for example). You don't
>> think having a portable, standard way to do GPGPU stuff is something we
>> need!?
>
> No. I dont. At this time we need a shove of the existing standards. And
> b "we" I mean the Linux side. Gods knows its having enough difficulty
> keeping up and getting SW vendors on their side.
>
Translation: It is another threat to MS dominance, and so it has to be
stopped somehow.
Too bad that your "OSS culling committee" has no say in that, isn't
it, "true linux advocate" and "kernel hacker" Hadron Quark?
--
The Day Microsoft makes something that does not suck is probably
the day they start making vacuum cleaners.
Homer
> But I don't see whether they have or haven't licensed the source
> code with a GPL-like license or even opened it for inspection.
> That seems troublesome.
It's a BSD license:
http://www.khronos.org/registry/cl/api/1.0/cl.h
--
K.
http://slated.org
.----
| "At the time, I thought C was the most elegant language and Java
| the most practical one. That point of view lasted for maybe two
| weeks after initial exposure to Lisp." ~ Constantine Vetoshev
`----
Fedora release 8 (Werewolf) on sky, running kernel 2.6.25.11-60.fc8
09:46:01 up 47 days, 17:28, 4 users, load average: 0.01, 0.08, 0.08
Homer
> Hadron wrote:
>> At this time we need a shove of the existing standards. And b "we"
>> I mean the Linux side. Gods knows its having enough difficulty
>> keeping up and getting SW vendors on their side.
>
> Translation: It is another threat to MS dominance, and so it has to
> be stopped somehow.
The root of Hardon's anti-choice agenda couldn't be clearer if he was
wearing a Microsoft ID badge.
--
K.
http://slated.org
.----
| "At the time, I thought C was the most elegant language and Java
| the most practical one. That point of view lasted for maybe two
| weeks after initial exposure to Lisp." ~ Constantine Vetoshev
`----
Fedora release 8 (Werewolf) on sky, running kernel 2.6.25.11-60.fc8
09:49:53 up 47 days, 17:32, 4 users, load average: 0.03, 0.06, 0.07
Chris Ahlstrom
this bit o' wisdom:
> Hadron wrote:
>
>> its this fannying around that got OGL left behind in the first place.
>>
>> But of course COLA and reality are two different things ....
>
> Idiot.
>
> Now get google going and read what OpenCL is.
>
> Hint: It is not at all what you think it is.
>
> Whenever one thinks that you could impossibly come up with dumber posts,
> you sure surprise anybody here. You can obviously always get dumber. And
> you just did.
>
> Now how about a rerun of your tripwire blunder, "kernel hacker" Hadron
> Quark? By now you should be ready to repost misrepresented claims
Let's not get into the game of retreading all of LHC's Linux/OSS blunders,
shall we? We haven't got all day.
--
Avoid the Gates of Hell. Use Linux
-- unknown source
Chris Ahlstrom
this bit o' wisdom:
> Hadron wrote:
It's a sad day for the LHC when Hadron gets spanked by Tim.
--
Harriet's Dining Observation:
In every restaurant, the hardness of the butter pats
increases in direct proportion to the softness of the bread.
Chris Ahlstrom
this bit o' wisdom:
> Verily I say unto thee, that Peter Köhlmann spake thusly:
>> Hadron wrote:
>
>>> At this time we need a shove of the existing standards. And b "we"
>>> I mean the Linux side. Gods knows its having enough difficulty
>>> keeping up and getting SW vendors on their side.
>>
>> Translation: It is another threat to MS dominance, and so it has to
>> be stopped somehow.
>
> The root of Hardon's anti-choice agenda couldn't be clearer if he was
> wearing a Microsoft ID badge.
Indeed. All of LHC's Judas-like denials to the contrary.
"I come here not to praise Linux, but to bury it!"
--
The best defense against logic is ignorance.
Chris Ahlstrom
this bit o' wisdom:
> Hadron wrote:
>
>> Answer : they are written in openGL.
>
> We're not talking about OpenGL here, we're talking about OpenCL
> (Zee Ell)
> <http://khronos.org/opencl/>
>
> You should really learn to carefully read a text and to some
> recherche, before saying/writing something stupid.
>
> In some cases it's good practice to <ROT13>FGSH</ROT13>.
>
> Wolfgang Draxinger
>
> P.S.: I AM advocating the use of OpenGL and open standards. As
> such I can't stand people who go fanatically about it and
> ridicule the humble efforts the OSS community takes, to gain
> some market share. One gains nothing by insulting other people.
Funny how far the LHC goes in his efforts to pooh-pooh open source.
He sounds like a Microsoft marketer at a trade show.
--
In success there's a tendency to keep on doing what you were doing.
-- Alan Kay
Chris Ahlstrom
this bit o' wisdom:
> Wolfgang Draxinger wrote:
>>
>> And as there is a OSS implementation of the OpenGL spec, there
>> will be a OSS implementation of the OpenCL spec. And it will be
>> in competition with commercial implementations. And you should
>> be glad, that a big company like Apple plays the early adoptor
>> and takes the risk. Once OpenCL is established in a larger user
>> base those will likely port to Linux and a OSS OpenCL
>> implementation.
>
> That answers my objection/FUD that the first implementations of OpenCL
> apparently will not be FOSS. I claim pretty often that new software
> niches are usually opened by proprietary software. When the niche is
> well-defined and stops changing, it is easier for FOSS to come in and do
> the job right. So I feel a little foolish that I didn't notice the
> scenario you describe. I also feel very grateful when I see another
> FOSS advocate who isn't a blind fanatic---somebody who sees steps along
> a path of improvement.
>
> Thank you for a very informative post.
Seconded.
--
7:30, Channel 5: The Bionic Dog (Action/Adventure)
The Bionic Dog drinks too much and kicks over the National
Redwood Forest.
7:30, Channel 8: The Bionic Dog (Action/Adventure)
The Bionic Dog gets a hormonal short-circuit and violates the
Mann Act with an interstate Greyhound bus.
Peter Köhlmann
Well, I did not propose that the linux advocates do the rerun.
Hadron "tripwire wizard" Quark did with his hilarious tripwire blunder. He
learned that special "debating technique" from Snot Michael Glasser who
also, when totally spanked, starts to open *new* threads, totally
misrepresenting what happened, and without any reference whatsoever to the
thread where he got spanked.
Hadron Quark is really a piece of work. I always thought that incredibly
dishonest swine like Snot Michael Glasser don't come in pairs, but seems I
am wrong. Snot Glasser has a twin brother equally dishonest and lying like
himself
--
We may not return the affection of those who like us,
but we always respect their good judgement.
Chris Ahlstrom
this bit o' wisdom:
> Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>> Let's not get into the game of retreading all of LHC's Linux/OSS
>> blunders, shall we? We haven't got all day.
>
> Well, I did not propose that the linux advocates do the rerun.
>
> Hadron "tripwire wizard" Quark did with his hilarious tripwire blunder. He
> learned that special "debating technique" from Snot Michael Glasser who
> also, when totally spanked, starts to open *new* threads, totally
> misrepresenting what happened, and without any reference whatsoever to the
> thread where he got spanked.
>
> Hadron Quark is really a piece of work. I always thought that incredibly
> dishonest swine like Snot Michael Glasser don't come in pairs, but seems I
> am wrong. Snot Glasser has a twin brother equally dishonest and lying like
> himself
Nuts always come in pairs.
--
When all other means of communication fail, try words.
Snit
4950ec51$0$31331$9b4e...@newsspool4.arcor-online.net on 12/23/08 6:49 AM:
You sure beg for my attention a lot.
--
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.
--Albert Einstein
Hadron
> "Peter Köhlmann" <peter.k...@arcor.de> stated in post
> 4950ec51$0$31331$9b4e...@newsspool4.arcor-online.net on 12/23/08 6:49 AM:
>
>> Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>
>>> After takin' a swig o' grog, Peter Köhlmann belched out
>>> this bit o' wisdom:
>>>
>>>> Hadron wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> its this fannying around that got OGL left behind in the first place.
>>>>>
>>>>> But of course COLA and reality are two different things ....
>>>>
>>>> Idiot.
>>>>
>>>> Now get google going and read what OpenCL is.
>>>>
>>>> Hint: It is not at all what you think it is.
>>>>
>>>> Whenever one thinks that you could impossibly come up with dumber posts,
>>>> you sure surprise anybody here. You can obviously always get dumber. And
>>>> you just did.
>>>>
>>>> Now how about a rerun of your tripwire blunder, "kernel hacker" Hadron
>>>> Quark? By now you should be ready to repost misrepresented claims
>>>
>>> Let's not get into the game of retreading all of LHC's Linux/OSS
>>> blunders,
>>> shall we? We haven't got all day.
I recognised the style! Yip yip!
It appears you have been sucking up to long to read my comments
yourself.
We do not need OpenCL. There are better things to be doing. importantly
- promoting the usage and adoption of the OpenGL standards we have which
perform adequately without any further standards or architectures to
enhance processing.
>>>
>>
>> Well, I did not propose that the linux advocates do the rerun.
>>
>> Hadron "tripwire wizard" Quark did with his hilarious tripwire
>> blunder. He
There was no blunder. You were wrong. And now you try to rewrite
history.
>> learned that special "debating technique" from Snot Michael Glasser who
>> also, when totally spanked, starts to open *new* threads, totally
>> misrepresenting what happened, and without any reference whatsoever to the
>> thread where he got spanked.
I did not get spanked Peter. Unless you think Chris Arsestrom kissing
your arse is a spanking. No. That's a licking. He does it a lot.
>>
>> Hadron Quark is really a piece of work. I always thought that incredibly
>> dishonest swine like Snot Michael Glasser don't come in pairs, but seems I
>> am wrong. Snot Glasser has a twin brother equally dishonest and lying like
>> himself
>
> You sure beg for my attention a lot.
--
"The even stupider thing about it is, these morons really believe that
threatening people will fire and brimstone will "convert" them."
-- Andrew Halliwell <spi...@ponder.sky.com> in comp.os.linux.advocacy
Peter Köhlmann
Your "comments" are worthless. You are a worse liar as Snot Glasser is, and
*that* is quite an accomplishment
> We do not need OpenCL. There are better things to be doing. importantly
> - promoting the usage and adoption of the OpenGL standards we have which
> perform adequately without any further standards or architectures to
> enhance processing.
*You* don't want OpenCL
It is too dangerous for you MS astroturfers to have new technologies
available for linux
Especially for the fact that architectures != x86 are supported. Might pull
the rug directly from under MS
>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Well, I did not propose that the linux advocates do the rerun.
>>>
>>> Hadron "tripwire wizard" Quark did with his hilarious tripwire
>>> blunder. He
>
> There was no blunder. You were wrong. And now you try to rewrite
> history.
Nope. You proposed tripwire as a solution in a scenario where it is
impossible for it to function
Here, let me help you find it again:
Message-ID: <4939880d$0$31878$9b4e...@newsspool3.arcor-online.net>
*You* in your total incompetence pulled out a scenario out of your hat
where the user downloads *and* installs a tampered with package (just lets
assume for now that this actually /could/ be a likely scenario)
And shout how tripwire is made for detecting such "bad things(tm)"
It isn't. It can't.
>>> learned that special "debating technique" from Snot Michael Glasser who
>>> also, when totally spanked, starts to open *new* threads, totally
>>> misrepresenting what happened, and without any reference whatsoever to
>>> the thread where he got spanked.
>
> I did not get spanked Peter.
Naturally not. *Must* be the reason you were opening a totally new thread,
with no references whatsoever just like your ass-buddy Snot Glasser does
so often when spanked.
You could not continue in the thread where you were shown to be utterly
clueless
Here, for your convenience:
Message-ID: <gi86cu$io$1...@edwardhall.motzarella.org>
> Unless you think Chris Arsestrom kissing
> your arse is a spanking. No. That's a licking. He does it a lot.
No need to try to pull someone else into it.
You got spanked severely all by me alone. Nobody else initially
participated in your "education session", "tripwire wizard" Hadron Quark
>
>>>
>>> Hadron Quark is really a piece of work. I always thought that
>>> incredibly dishonest swine like Snot Michael Glasser don't come in
>>> pairs, but seems I am wrong. Snot Glasser has a twin brother equally
>>> dishonest and lying like himself
>>
>> You sure beg for my attention a lot.
>
So Snot Michael Glasser still scans the groups trying to find where his
idiocy might be mentioned again.
Poor Michael Glasser. Nothing to do for lack of competence, so he trolls
usenet 24/7
--
You're genuinely bogus.
Snit
--
Do you ever wake up in a cold sweat wondering what the world would be
like if the Lamarckian view of evolution had ended up being accepted
over Darwin's?
Matt
> Verily I say unto thee, that Matt spake thusly:
>
>> But I don't see whether they have or haven't licensed the source
>> code with a GPL-like license or even opened it for inspection.
>> That seems troublesome.
>
> It's a BSD license:
>
> http://www.khronos.org/registry/cl/api/1.0/cl.h
Oh, thanks.
That isn't bad if they keep the source open. Then it could be forked
and the new branch put under GPL or similar.
Matt
> Hadron wrote:
>
>> Tim Smith <reply_i...@mouse-potato.com> writes:
>>
>>> In article <gip6m5$qjj$1...@edwardhall.motzarella.org>,
>>> Hadron <hadro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> MS always had openGL support. Or rather the video drivers did. What
>>>>>> you DONT need is ANOTHER open standard from Apple.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are you guys nuts?
>>>>> Yes, we do need it. It is not what you think it is:
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCL>
>>>> No. We dont need it.
>>>>
>>>> What we need is to convince people to use what we have got.
>>> What we've got now are several vendor-specific systems (CUDA from
>>> NVidia, and Stream Computing SDK from AMD, for example). You don't
>>> think having a portable, standard way to do GPGPU stuff is something we
>>> need!?
>> No. I dont. At this time we need a shove of the existing standards. And
>> b "we" I mean the Linux side. Gods knows its having enough difficulty
>> keeping up and getting SW vendors on their side.
>>
>
> Translation: It is another threat to MS dominance, and so it has to be
> stopped somehow.
bingo
chrisv
> Peter Köhlmann wrote:
>>
>> Hadron quacked:
>>>
>>> At this time we need a shove of the existing standards. And b "we"
>>> I mean the Linux side. Gods knows its having enough difficulty
>>> keeping up and getting SW vendors on their side.
>>
>> Translation: It is another threat to MS dominance, and so it has to
>> be stopped somehow.
>
>The root of Hardon's anti-choice agenda couldn't be clearer if he was
>wearing a Microsoft ID badge.
Hadron Quark *hates* freedom, OSS, Linux, and anything else "good".
Chris Ahlstrom
this bit o' wisdom:
> Hadron wrote:
>
> Here, for your convenience:
> Message-ID: <gi86cu$io$1...@edwardhall.motzarella.org>
>
>> Unless you think Chris Arsestrom kissing
>> your arse is a spanking. No. That's a licking. He does it a lot.
>
> No need to try to pull someone else into it.
I'm wondering why Hadron is so taken with the concept of the lingual
rectal lavage. The whole topic seems to occupy a lot of his attention.
--
Given some of the recent threads, the interactive discussions might
need to be conducted on canvas, in the presence of a referee, while
wearing padded gloves. ;-)
-- Phil Hands
Tim Smith
Hadron <hadro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > What we've got now are several vendor-specific systems (CUDA from
> > NVidia, and Stream Computing SDK from AMD, for example). You don't
> > think having a portable, standard way to do GPGPU stuff is something we
> > need!?
>
> No. I dont. At this time we need a shove of the existing standards. And
> b "we" I mean the Linux side. Gods knows its having enough difficulty
> keeping up and getting SW vendors on their side.
What existing standards? As far as I know, there isn't an existing
standard. If I want to do, say, a GPU-accelerated FFT, I have to decide
if I'm going to target NVidia GPUs or ATI GPUs, then use either NVidia's
CUDA software or AMD's Stream Computing SDK, respectively.
With OpenCL, I'll be able to write my GPU-assisted FFT code in a way
that doesn't depend on the particular GPU. How is that not a good and
much needed thing?
--
--Tim Smith
Peter Köhlmann
Simply *because* it is a good thing Hadron Quark is against it.
Not only because it is "choice" (something Hadron *hates* like few other
things), but also because it is good for OpenGL. Can't have that, as MS
favours DirectX and wants to bury OpenGL, the sooner the better
--
Don't abandon hope: your Tom Mix decoder ring arrives tomorrow
William Poaster
> After takin' a swig o' grog, Peter Köhlmann belched out
> this bit o' wisdom:
>
>> Hadron wrote:
>>
>> Here, for your convenience:
>> Message-ID: <gi86cu$io$1...@edwardhall.motzarella.org>
>>
>>> Unless you think Chris Arsestrom kissing
>>> your arse is a spanking. No. That's a licking. He does it a lot.
>>
>> No need to try to pull someone else into it.
>
> I'm wondering why Hadron is so taken with the concept of the lingual
> rectal lavage. The whole topic seems to occupy a lot of his attention.
The Quack troll probably got it from his Flatfish buddy, whose
predilections are well documented.
--
No room for the horrors
of Micro$oft here!
-- Stephen Fry - Room 101 --
Chris Ahlstrom
this bit o' wisdom:
> Tim Smith wrote:
>
>> Hadron <hadro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> No. I dont. At this time we need a shove of the existing standards. And
>>> b "we" I mean the Linux side. Gods knows its having enough difficulty
>>> keeping up and getting SW vendors on their side.
>>
>> What existing standards? As far as I know, there isn't an existing
>> standard. If I want to do, say, a GPU-accelerated FFT, I have to decide
>> if I'm going to target NVidia GPUs or ATI GPUs, then use either NVidia's
>> CUDA software or AMD's Stream Computing SDK, respectively.
>>
>> With OpenCL, I'll be able to write my GPU-assisted FFT code in a way
>> that doesn't depend on the particular GPU. How is that not a good and
>> much needed thing?
>
> Simply *because* it is a good thing Hadron Quark is against it.
Simply because someone who likes Linux mentions it, LHC is against it.
> Not only because it is "choice" (something Hadron *hates* like few other
> things), but also because it is good for OpenGL. Can't have that, as MS
> favours DirectX and wants to bury OpenGL, the sooner the better
Microsoft can avoid OpenGL, but even before Apple's help, OpenGL was alive
via a free implementation.
--
This is the sort of English up with which I will not put.
-- Winston Churchill
Sinister Midget
> Let's not get into the game of retreading all of LHC's Linux/OSS blunders,
> shall we? We haven't got all day.
Maybe we could document one for each stupid post he makes? Oh, wait. We
don't have all day, you're right.
--
The computer can't tell you the emotional story. It can give you the
exact mathematical design, but what's missing is the eyebrows.
-- Frank Zappa
Homer
> Hadron Quark *hates* freedom, OSS, Linux, and anything else "good".
AFAICT his motives are, like mine, mostly political, but in diametrical
opposition to anything virtuous. IOW he's a selfish; malicious; morally
deficient thug with a right-wing extremist agenda and half a brain, who
pretends (like his soul-mate DooFuS) to bring "balance" to COLA, masked
as an attack on our (alleged) denial of Linux's technical flaws, but in
reality as a means of spreading his particularly sick type of doctrine.
If he was anything more than a mindless Neanderthal, he might genuinely
be dangerous. As it is, he's little more than a passing curiosity; both
repulsive and comical - like a single episode of Ren & Stimpy repeated,
endlessly and at high volume, until it gives you a headache. Hardon may
have great difficulty reading man-pages, but he certainly seems to have
absorbed the Vole's "Evangelism is WAR!" training brief comprehensively
enough to effectively sabotage this group. Give Microsoft their due ...
they know how to train their pet monkeys. Pity they don't show the same
aptitude with their engineers.
--
K.
http://slated.org
.----
| "At the time, I thought C was the most elegant language and Java
| the most practical one. That point of view lasted for maybe two
| weeks after initial exposure to Lisp." ~ Constantine Vetoshev
`----
Fedora release 8 (Werewolf) on sky, running kernel 2.6.25.11-60.fc8
09:55:38 up 48 days, 17:38, 4 users, load average: 0.00, 0.02, 0.00
The Ghost In The Machine
<hadro...@gmail.com>
wrote
on Mon, 22 Dec 2008 22:29:58 +0100
<gip104$rh3$1...@edwardhall.motzarella.org>:
> Peter Köhlmann <peter.k...@arcor.de> writes:
>
>> Hadron wrote:
>>
>>> Matt <ma...@themattfella.xxxyyz.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>>>
>>>>> OpenCL and OpenGL take on DirectX
>>>>>
>>>>> ,----[ Quote ]
>>>>> | OpenGL is now more competitive with DirectX than ever. Microsoft's
>>>>> stumble | with Vista and its DirectX/Direct3D version 10 has also
>>>>> helped to stall its | momentum in the market. Microsoft plans to add
>>>>> OpenCL-like support for GPGPU | computing into DirectX 11 in Windows
>>>>> 7, but Apple's OpenCL, which is designed | to work closely with
>>>>> OpenGL code, will arrive first and with broad industry |
>>>>> support. Apple has also released OpenCL as a royalty-free, open
>>>>> standard | anyone can implement on any platform.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But I don't see whether they have or haven't licensed the source code
>>>> with a GPL-like license or even opened it for inspection. That seems
>>>> troublesome.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>> http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/12/16/opencl_and_opengl_take_on_directx.html
>>>
>>> MS always had openGL support.
>>
>> And in Vista they downgraded OpenGL rather sharply
>>
>>> Or rather the video drivers did.
>>
>>
>>> What you
>>> DONT need is ANOTHER open standard from Apple.
>>>
>>> Are you guys nuts?
>>>
>>
>> And who worked on that *open* standard? Hint: It wasn't apple. They are
>> just the first to implemet it.
>> And no, it is not meant to /replace/ OpenGL, it is meant to /augment/ it.
>>
>> Leave it to Hadron Quark, the dimwittest wintroll in COLA, to completely
>> miss the point once again.
>>
>> Are you Snot Glassers smarter twin in your other life?
>
> You do not have a clue about the subject at hand moron.
>
> Why do you think that SOME games run cross platform *natively* ?
>
> Answer : they are written in openGL.
Pedant Point: I frankly doubt such; good gaming engines
would most likely abstract the problem away anyway.
It's a bit like modeling a bouncing ball deep in the gaming
engine with the list of quadrilaterals or triangles
approximating it in an OpenGL display list by some sort
of driver/converter/subroutine *outside* the game proper;
the display won't see the former, and the gaming engine may
see only small parts of the latter.
Lower parts will hook the objects into the display lists.
In OpenGL, these might be converted to shaders and
instruction sequences which render the display per frame,
or are referenced during display rendering -- glNewList()
and glEndList(), for those familiar with the API; I don't
know what Direct3D does in that area but from what little
I've read it's more data-based rather than state/sequence-based,
with a more complicated setup.
Quake 4 in particular runs very well on Linux, with some
version of OpenGL (and a native Linux program driving
the whole shebang); however, the official game site
(www.quake4game.com) specifically stipulates DirectX 9.0C,
which it includes in its installation. Doesn't look like
OpenGL to me.
Of course the Quake4 data is the same in both cases.
Unreal Tournament had software and OpenGL rendering engines;
the former used the main CPU, the latter set up display
lists through an OpenGL driver. The look between the
two was very different back then. UT2004 also varied
slightly between Windows and Linux -- the most visible
area being the semitransparent blue health icon. UT2004
also dumped the software rendering, which is probably
just as well; even cheap cards can do Direct3D and OpenGL
at a rather crude level. (Heck, my laptop supports OpenGL,
though not all that fast.)
>
> Get the existing stuff used - not more feather brained geek smuddying
> the water AGAIN.
>
> its this fannying around that got OGL left behind in the first place.
>
> But of course COLA and reality are two different things ....
>
--
#191, ewi...@earthlink.net
Useless C++ Programming Idea #8830129:
std::set<...> v; for(..:iterator i = v.begin(); i != v.end(); i++)
if(*i == thing) {...}
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
The Ghost In The Machine
<reply_i...@mouse-potato.com>
wrote
on Mon, 22 Dec 2008 14:27:22 -0800
<reply_in_group-A65...@news.supernews.com>:
> In article <giosmb$9fc$4...@edwardhall.motzarella.org>,
> Hadron <hadro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> MS always had openGL support. Or rather the video drivers did. What you
>> DONT need is ANOTHER open standard from Apple.
>>
>> Are you guys nuts?
>
Not sure "need" is the right word, but it does look
potentially useful, and even DirectX/Direct3D could
join in, given the right circumstances.
--
#191, ewi...@earthlink.net
Windows Vista. It'll Fix Everything(tm).
aku ankka
> Tim Smith <reply_in_gr...@mouse-potato.com> writes:
> > In article <giosmb$9f...@edwardhall.motzarella.org>,
> > Hadron <hadronqu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> MS always had openGL support. Or rather the video drivers did. What you
> >> DONT need is ANOTHER open standard from Apple.
>
> >> Are you guys nuts?
>
> > Yes, we do need it. It is not what you think it is:
>
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCL>
>
>
We don't need computers. We could all live in caves and eat berries,
fruits, etc. But that's besides the point. Check what the 'C' in
OpenCL stands for; it's not for graphics. It is for computing; doing
computations. There are a lot of interesting things you can compute
with a computer.. you still with us, or do we need to simplify this
for you?
Okay, now, for using the CPU, which stands for Central Processing
Unit, you can write programs in many interesting programming
languages. You can use binary, assembly, C, C++, Java, Fortran, Basic
and other languages. The OpenCL is language and API to support the
language for more generic computing hardware. Think of Intel's
Larrabee, GPU's, CELL, etc.. they have a lot more power than CPU+FPU
(FPU = Floating Point Unit). This enables us programmers to write
software to use that raw computing power.
It's not about needing or not needing OpenCL. We _need_ something
similar to use the processing power that we have. If it's not OpenCL,
then it's compute shaders in DirectX 11 or CUDA. OpenCL will just work
more hardware and platforms. I think your argument boils down to if we
need to use the hardware or not. You say we don't need to use it,
fine, you don't. No argument there. You know best what _you_ need. But
when the context is HOW we going to use the hardware, suddenly we DO
need OpenCL or similar API.
That's the topic people here are discussing. You are, like, commenting
on the wrong discussion.
Homer
> On 23 joulu, 01:07, Hadron <hadronqu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tim Smith <reply_in_gr...@mouse-potato.com> writes:
>>> In article <giosmb$9f...@edwardhall.motzarella.org>, Hadron
>>> <hadronqu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> MS always had openGL support. Or rather the video drivers did.
>>>> What you DONT need is ANOTHER open standard from Apple. Are you
>>>> guys nuts?
>>>
>>> Yes, we do need it. It is not what you think it is:
>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCL>
>>
>> No. We dont need it.
>
> We don't need computers. We could all live in caves and eat berries,
> fruits, etc. But that's besides the point. Check what the 'C' in
> OpenCL stands for; it's not for graphics. It is for computing; doing
> computations. There are a lot of interesting things you can compute
> with a computer.. you still with us, or do we need to simplify this
> for you?
Let me introduce Hadron Quark, affectionately known as COLA's Resident
"Expert" on Everything - Ever®, who is without exception the most stupid
person I have ever encountered in my entire life.
And I don't say this as some offhand insult, it is a simple statement of
fact. He makes Dubya Bush look like a Nobel Prize-winning mathematician
by comparison, so I'm afraid you'd be wasting your time simplifying the
truth for his benefit.
You could liquidise the truth with a pound of bananas, and spoon-feed it
to Hadron whilst carefully wiping the dribbles from his mouth, and he'd
still totally fail to understand.
--
K.
http://slated.org
.----
| "At the time, I thought C was the most elegant language and Java
| the most practical one. That point of view lasted for maybe two
| weeks after initial exposure to Lisp." ~ Constantine Vetoshev
`----
Fedora release 8 (Werewolf) on sky, running kernel 2.6.25.11-60.fc8
22:17:58 up 50 days, 6:00, 4 users, load average: 0.14, 0.30, 0.23
Philipp Klaus Krause
> I gather from Wolfgang's post that the standard is open, but the first
> implementation is not. That gives FSF and FOSS makers something to work
> on ...
It doesn't fell open when you read the specification. There's a whole
page dedicated to copyright bullshit right after the table of contents
(you may not this, you may not that, etc; e.g. "receipt of this
specification does not convey any rights to [...] use [...] anything
that it may describe in whole or part").
Philipp
Matt
> Verily I say unto thee, that chrisv spake thusly:
>
>> Hadron Quark *hates* freedom, OSS, Linux, and anything else "good".
>
> AFAICT his motives are, like mine, mostly political, but in diametrical
> opposition to anything virtuous. IOW he's a selfish; malicious; morally
> deficient thug with a right-wing extremist agenda and half a brain, who
Ah, so virtue is left-wing extremist. I didn't know that.
Really Homer, you ought to take your beliefs and emotions out for a good
cleaning and overhaul once in a while.
Homer
> Homer wrote:
>> Verily I say unto thee, that chrisv spake thusly:
>>
>>> Hadron Quark *hates* freedom, OSS, Linux, and anything else
>>> "good".
>>
>> AFAICT his motives are, like mine, mostly political, but in
>> diametrical opposition to anything virtuous. IOW he's a selfish;
>> malicious; morally deficient thug with a right-wing extremist
>> agenda and half a brain, who
>
> Ah, so virtue is left-wing extremist.
That rather arrogantly assumes that anything which is not right-wing
extremism must therefore be left-wing extremism. Believe it or not,
there is an entire political spectrum between those two points, not that
those indoctrinated to the point of hysteria by typically McCarthyistic
American politics seem to be able to grasp that obvious fact.
--
K.
http://slated.org
.----
| "At the time, I thought C was the most elegant language and Java
| the most practical one. That point of view lasted for maybe two
| weeks after initial exposure to Lisp." ~ Constantine Vetoshev
`----
Fedora release 8 (Werewolf) on sky, running kernel 2.6.25.11-60.fc8
02:38:17 up 51 days, 10:21, 4 users, load average: 0.46, 0.54, 0.48
Matt
> Verily I say unto thee, that Matt spake thusly:
>> Homer wrote:
>>> Verily I say unto thee, that chrisv spake thusly:
>>>
>>>> Hadron Quark *hates* freedom, OSS, Linux, and anything else
>>>> "good".
>>> AFAICT his motives are, like mine, mostly political, but in
>>> diametrical opposition to anything virtuous. IOW he's a selfish;
>>> malicious; morally deficient thug with a right-wing extremist
>>> agenda and half a brain, who
>> Ah, so virtue is left-wing extremist.
>
> That rather arrogantly assumes that anything which is not right-wing
> extremism must therefore be left-wing extremism. Believe it or not,
> there is an entire political spectrum between those two points, not that
> those indoctrinated to the point of hysteria by typically McCarthyistic
> American politics seem to be able to grasp that obvious fact.
Not to offend you, but ...
Again your thinking is off.
"diametrical opposition"
"IOW"
"virtue"
"right-wing extremist"
You have combined those words so that they imply the absurd conclusion:
"[V]irtue is left-wing extremist."
Bonus: your mention of a left-right spectrum shows your one-dimensional
thinking.
...
And Homer talking about hysteria---that's a good one.
Homer
> Homer wrote:
>>> Ah, so virtue is left-wing extremist.
>>
>> That rather arrogantly assumes that anything which is not
>> right-wing extremism must therefore be left-wing extremism. Believe
>> it or not, there is an entire political spectrum between those two
>> points, not that those indoctrinated to the point of hysteria by
>> typically McCarthyistic American politics seem to be able to grasp
>> that obvious fact.
>
>
> Not to offend you, but ...
>
> Again your thinking is off.
And your thinking is linear, simplistic and indoctrinated.
> "diametrical opposition"
Let me simplify this for you:
Firstly you've mistakenly assumed the "diametrical opposites" which I
referred to are "left and right" politics. In fact, what I /actually/
wrote was "diametrical opposition to anything virtuous". Just because
I failed to explicitly exclude left-wing extremism from the criticism
of Hadron's politics, that shouldn't imply that I believe /it/ is the
object of virtue.
Secondly you compounded your error by fallaciously assuming that left
and right-wing extremism are diametrically opposite, whereas they are
just two paths to the same destination (totalitarianism). Despite the
apparent paradox of duplicity, there is nonetheless still a political
spectrum between those two points, /both/ of which are in diametrical
opposition to anything virtuous, where that virtuous condition is (in
case you haven't yet figured it out) democracy.
I really find it intolerably exhausting debating with someone who has
comprehension skills as limited as yours.
If you still have difficulty understanding this concept then consider
the distance along the circumference of a circle between two adjacent
points on that circumference. It can either be 0˚ or 360˚ - depending
on one's perspective. These two points (left and right-wing extremist
politics) are not diametrical opposites (but that was your assumption
- not mine), but there is nonetheless an entire spectrum of points in
between them. These two points are both at the antapex of the circle,
diametrically opposite a third point (democracy) at the apex. To move
from the apex to the antapex, one can travel along either the left or
right side of the circumference, but irrespective of how one deviates
from the apex, the destination is always the same.
So despite my labelling Hadron's politics as "right-wing extremism" -
something which you apparently found confusing, this has /nothing/ to
do with the differences between left and right-wing extremism, either
one of which are unacceptable, but I should thank you for (yet again)
handing me a soapbox on a silver platter.
Political extremism is wrong, regardless of whether that extremism is
left or right-wing oriented. In this context (and in others which you
don't seem to be aware of) there is no difference between either type
of extremist doctrine. For example, both forms of extremism result in
the same totalitarian regime; the only difference being the nature of
the dictator. In one, the dictator is a single representative of many
corporate interests; in the other that dictator is the state. Neither
one of these conditions benefits the ordinary citizens of that state,
since they are all nonetheless repressed by a totalitarian regime.
The most balanced political doctrine is liberal democracy, which is a
doctrine most conducive to the pursuit of personal liberty, in a fair
and just society. This is /my/ political affiliation, and the primary
motivation for my interest in Free Software. Presumably you associate
the desire for Freedom with Communism, hence your confusion. I should
not be especially surprised by your incomprehension, because you have
already adequately demonstrated that you've become afflicted by right
-wing indoctrination. That doesn't necessarily make you a bad person;
it just makes you a victim of (mostly) American propaganda, but these
twisted ideals you've become afflicted with make my task rather hard,
since you seem incapable of perceiving the concepts of Freedom beyond
cheeseburgers and banknotes - you clearly have a rather McCarthyistic
view of anything which doesn't fully embrace the sick American Dream®
that expounds the ideals of exploitation and greed above all else.
Microsoft's political doctrine (which seems institutionalised through
America) is corporatism (a.k.a. corporate fascism). In the context of
this discussion, or indeed any commentary I offer regarding Microsoft
in COLA, this is the only form of extremism relevant to the issues at
hand. That doesn't mean that I'm unaware; tolerant or even supportive
of left-wing extremism, it simply happens to be irrelevant, not least
of which because (at their core) such doctrines are fundamentally the
same, and therefore a moot point. The impetuses for the manifestation
of extremism may be radically different, thus my tendency to identify
Microsoft's (and their supporters') ideals as "right-wing" instead of
just "extremist", but you shouldn't then assume that I therefore must
support (what you mistakenly perceive to be) the opposite doctrine of
left-wing extremism. The diametrical opposites here are democracy and
extremism, not "left and right" which is merely the indoctrination of
false polarisation (the illusion of political choice). Left and right
wing politics are not political /choices/ - they are merely reactions
and counter-reactions to any form of ideology which deviates from the
goals of democracy, as mankind struggles with its own weaknesses.
Democracy attempts to balance the needs of businesses, with the needs
of the people. Unfortunately, business has a propensity to spiral out
into a megalomaniacal obsession with power and greed, if not properly
regulated. Equally the /people/ have a propensity towards selfishness
and anarchy, if not similarly regulated. Providing this regulation is
the purpose of democratic law, but such laws are not infallible; they
are especially susceptible to corruption from megalomaniacal business
interests (through lobbying and other nefarious practises). Generally
speaking, private interests (i.e. ordinary citizens) usually lack the
financial means to do likewise, so they must depend on democratic law
to serve their interests. When the law fails them, they react against
these violations of their rights. This "reaction" is the beginning of
the downward path towards left-wing extremism, as retaliation against
corporatists dragging them down the opposite path, towards right-wing
extremism. When democracy fails, extremism wins, and society descends
into that antapex which is the diametrical opposite of democracy (the
circle of politics).
I had hoped my references to "diametrical" (diameters) and "spectrum"
(the curvature of rainbows) would be sufficient for you to grasp what
I mean by "diametrical opposition to anything virtuous", but I hadn't
accounted for the fact that you apparently never considered democracy
as virtuous, nor considered the possibility that right-wing extremism
is just as diametrically opposed to democracy as left-wing extremism,
and hence can (seemingly paradoxically) occupy exactly the same point
within the political spectrum (the antapex of politics).
As ever, I find it extremely frustrating that I have to explain every
word I write in excruciating detail exclusively for your benefit, but
without these explanations others might tend to take your fallacious;
simplistic and tainted analysis of my views at face value, and that'd
be a misrepresentation that I'm not prepared to tolerate.
> You have combined those words so that they imply the absurd
> conclusion:
Well it's not really my fault if your mistaken inferences lead you to
absurd conclusions.
> Bonus: your mention of a left-right spectrum shows your
> one-dimensional thinking.
Oh the irony!
> And Homer talking about hysteria---that's a good one.
Yes, it is, although Nietzsche had rather more to say on the subjects
of hysteria and the herd mentality with which you (and others) appear
to be afflicted. It should be abundantly clear to you by now, that my
conceptions are rather more autonomous, and thus mass hysteria serves
me no purpose, other than as a signal for me to strengthen my resolve
to enlighten the herd, and thus set them Free.
--
K.
http://slated.org
.----
| "At the time, I thought C was the most elegant language and Java
| the most practical one. That point of view lasted for maybe two
| weeks after initial exposure to Lisp." ~ Constantine Vetoshev
`----
Fedora release 8 (Werewolf) on sky, running kernel 2.6.25.11-60.fc8
06:34:00 up 52 days, 14:16, 4 users, load average: 1.57, 1.44, 1.31