Linux'95 final release
L S Ng
Linux 95 and Life without Microsoft
I think many people would like to use the name Linux 95 as an
alias to Linux v1.2. This constrasts strongly with Windows 95, which in
many aspects is the exact opposite of Linux 95. So let's make it
official. In fact, Linux 95 has been used unofficially by many including
Linux Torvalds himself.
Bill Gates fortune will not grow forever. He is trying to get rich too
quickly with too high profile. This makes him enemies in the
establishment. Microsoft's products does not appeal to computer
literate users, who so far has to tolerate until Linux 95 comes as a God
sent. Microsfot applications are the hottest target for software piracy
around the world, from which Bill Gates do not earn much. What's left
to follow him are the SOHO (small office / home office) users, those who
don't know much about computer, and also computer vendors who don't know
much about computer, and computer press who don't know much about
computer.
Windows 95 may replace Windows 3.x, but even more users will migrate to
Linux. In the PC OS war, there seems to leave no space for OS/2. IBM
doesn't really need OS/2 to survive. Windows 95 is extremely important
to Bill Gates. But his strategy for the server and network is doomed to
failure by Linux. It was only a year ago when the popular argument was
that NT will replace Unix. It is clear now the King is still the King.
Microsoft will need to survive on Windows 95 and Microsoft Office.
The success of Microsoft Office has put off many software developers
for Windows. It is sensible for them to migrate and they can now
migrate to Linux and X-Windows quite easily. The Microsoft compiler
suit will no longer sell. Give Linux 95 one more year, we will see
major applications appearing on Linux platform. This was how
applications appeared on the dumb DOS platform 10 years ago. Never mind
not many user friendly applications on Linux at the moment, the
important thing is the development tools which are now more than
complete and yet free!
When good applications appear on Linux, Microsoft stronghold on the
Office suit will be threatened. Bill Gates has only one more year to
enjoy his fortune. When this happens, I suggest Bill Gates move his
Office suit to Linux, just like what he did for MacOS. Microsoft is
recognised as an application company as their other attempts fail
miserably. Microsoft will not enjoy the advantage of knowing both the OS
and the applications on Linux however. They have to compete equally and
fairly.
On the top of the world is not Bill Gates. Steve Jobs will remain
unchallenged for a few years to come. Steve Jobs have a few more years
head start. His NeXTSTEP is a few years more advanced than anything
else. Even if one day his fortune is threatened by Linux, he will still
be remembered in history as the man who created NeXTSTEP. It was 5
years ago when I first saw a translucent window, in which a Lotus Improv
spreadsheet was run, with a beautiful beachside scenery as the
background. And I have not seen the same thing again on other platform
for 5 years.
For many years, Unix has been envied by many as the King of the OS. Unix
is cool. It was not something to be owned until it is popularized on
the PC by Linux. Users and developers confidence on Linux will grow
exponentially in 1995. If 1994 is the year of Internet surfing, those
surfer will now be looking at an OS which they can build a home on. Now
if each software developer runs a Internet node, they will gain
familarity and confidence with Linux and Unix, which they tended to
avoid before. They will be amazed how well Linux will run an Internet
server and at the same time enable them to use X-Windows and compilers
simultaneously.
Bill Gates hopes to attract customers / vendors to put their 'home page'
'advertisement' on his Microsoft network. Every Linux user can run
their own http, gopher servers easily. So why put your home page on
Microsoft network? Again, only the SOHO users and those who don't know
much about computers will use Microsoft service. Having said that, I
think there are enough SOHO users on earth to keep Microsoft fat for
many years to come.
Linux 95 may not nail Bill Gates into coffin. It however empowers users
with the freedom to live without Microsoft.
--
Friends don't let friends become Microslave. So you know where you want
to go today.
Jeff Dege
: Linux 95 and Life without Microsoft
: [ ... ]
: Linux 95 may not nail Bill Gates into coffin. It however empowers users
: with the freedom to live without Microsoft.
It's a nice dream. If it comes true only in part, it will be a better
world.
--
,sig under construction
Mark A. Stevens MD
: Bill Gates fortune will not grow forever. He is trying to get rich too
: quickly with too high profile.
He is no longer trying to get rich - by any definition of the word he
became rich long ago....
: establishment. Microsoft's products does not appeal to computer
: literate users,
Perhaps not all of them, but I'd argue that the WINE project folks count
as computer-literate. They seem to like stuff like Word for Windows.
: sent. Microsfot applications are the hottest target for software piracy
: around the world, from which Bill Gates do not earn much. What's left
: to follow him are the SOHO (small office / home office) users, those who
: don't know much about computer, and also computer vendors who don't know
: much about computer, and computer press who don't know much about
: computer.
Don't forget honest people. Some actually pay for the software they use.
: Linux 95 may not nail Bill Gates into coffin. It however empowers users
: with the freedom to live without Microsoft.
Frankly, I don't much care about Bill and Microsoft. If they can succeed,
good luck to them. I care more about finding the OS and application
solutions that meet my needs. At the moment, that's both Linux and Windows
(running on different computers). I always have to wonder strongly what
underlies rants such as these. We'd all like to be as rich as Bill, as
able to push around the small guys as Microsoft, etc - could that be part
of it? Another part of the anger seems to stem from being ignored - there
aren't enough ports of the really good stuff to Linux yet. Either way,
this sort of thing isn't likely to convince anybody. You're either
preaching to the choir or not being heard by the heathens.
--
Mark A. Stevens, M.D. Assistant Professor of Psychiatry
University of Texas Medical Branch | Mail: mste...@shrinkatron.utmb.edu
Galveston, TX 77555-0428 | Phone: (409) 772-3474
<URL:http://shrinkatron.utmb.edu/~mstevens>
Software Developers
>L S Ng (ls...@ecs.soton.ac.uk) wrote:
>: Bill Gates fortune will not grow forever. He is trying to get rich too
>: quickly with too high profile.
>
>He is no longer trying to get rich - by any definition of the word he
>became rich long ago....
I will agree on this one, his motives are more sinister than just lust
for money.
>: establishment. Microsoft's products does not appeal to computer
>: literate users,
>
>Perhaps not all of them, but I'd argue that the WINE project folks count
>as computer-literate. They seem to like stuff like Word for Windows.
How many of them wouldn't like a non-Microsoft, native Linux application
with less Microsoft bloat better?
>: Linux 95 may not nail Bill Gates into coffin. It however empowers users
>: with the freedom to live without Microsoft.
>
>Frankly, I don't much care about Bill and Microsoft.
Apathy about injustice is hardly something to be proud of. :-)
>If they can succeed,
>good luck to them.
You only _need_ luck if you play by the rules. :-(
>I care more about finding the OS and application
>solutions that meet my needs.
A fine short term goal... but its got a lot of limitations on long
term scope.
>At the moment, that's both Linux and Windows
>(running on different computers). I always have to wonder strongly what
>underlies rants such as these.
Some of us are just sick of seeing Microsoft bully their way past all of
their competitors.
>We'd all like to be as rich as Bill, as
>able to push around the small guys as Microsoft, etc - could that be part
>of it?
Not for me anyway. I don't want to be as rich as Bill. I'd be happy with
a "measly" million or two. Clearly, it is something more than money that
motivates Bill Gates. It is _power_. I don't _want_ to push people around,
I am not a bully. Desire to force your will on people is an evil thing.
>Another part of the anger seems to stem from being ignored - there
>aren't enough ports of the really good stuff to Linux yet.
That is a somewhat valid point. It is a problem I'm working on solving
(through cross platform development libraries/utilties). Nobody ever
said things would be easy.
>Either way,
>this sort of thing isn't likely to convince anybody. You're either
>preaching to the choir or not being heard by the heathens.
On this you are probably right... But its a question of the methods
that some people use, not the actual message that is the problem in
most cases.
"I speak only for myself, Lee Heins
not for my employers." sw...@worf.infonet.net or
le...@cadalyst.com
Jon N. Steiger
: Linux 95 and Life without Microsoft
[...]
: Bill Gates hopes to attract customers / vendors to put their 'home page'
: 'advertisement' on his Microsoft network. Every Linux user can run
: their own http, gopher servers easily. So why put your home page on
: Microsoft network? Again, only the SOHO users and those who don't know
: much about computers will use Microsoft service. Having said that, I
: think there are enough SOHO users on earth to keep Microsoft fat for
: many years to come.
Well, you need 'net access too... :-) Plenty of people can afford a
Linux box, but not many can cough up the cash for their own T1 or 56k line...
: Linux 95 may not nail Bill Gates into coffin. It however empowers users
: with the freedom to live without Microsoft.
We can always dream, but I think that if (when?) Linux can support
multiple processors and threading, we'll have a much stronger foothold.
How goes the VIPER project?
An important factor: the transient state of Linux. By transient, I don't
mean that its a fly-by-night sort of deal, I'm talking about the constant
kernel updates, free ftp, etc... There are people who just don't trust this
method. "Linux? Thats just some cheezy OS slapped together by a bunch
of hackers..." Just about all the people I know with their own UNIX boxes
are running NetBSD, or FreeBSD. When I tell them about the newsgroups, the
ftp sites, the constant kernel updates, they cringe... They're like, "that's
kind of stupid, and unreliable, and it makes me nervous". I can't get them
to understand that *this* is what makes Linux so great! I don't have to
wait for a bunch of people to decide to update the kernel... I can just
grab the new one from someone, or hack my own kernel if I like... Its
like a huge circle, a constant source of information; I mean, if I want to,
I can send an e-mail message, or even talk to the creator of the OS I use!
Try doing that with Steve Jobs or Bill Gates!
Perhaps, with outfits like Infomagic and Walnut Creek, even the
know-nothings will eventually gravitate towards Linux...
-Jon-
+=========================================================================+
||Jon N. Steiger - DoD# 1038 - USUA# A46209 - KotWitDoDFAQ _ ||
||stei...@cs.fredonia.edu , _.o..__ / \ ||
||http://www.cs.fredonia.edu:1024/~stei0302/ +********=++-' ||
||------------------------------------------------- ` o/ ||
||'91 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4 / '91 Yamaha FZR600R Oo. ||
||Current lust: TEAM Inc. 1100R Mini-Max (FAR103 Rotax 277) | ||
+=========================================================================+
: --
Warwick Allison
: around the world, from which Bill Gates do not earn much.
Software Piracy is a threat to Free Software.
If people did not pirate software, many more would turn instead to
Free Software. For this reason, I no longer tollerate people around
me talking of copying this-or-that commercial product. Their old cry
of "it costs too much - software companies make a fortune" is now
completely unjustified (if it ever was). Copying MS-Word? "Use LaTeX,"
I say. Copying MS-Windows? "Use XFree86 under Linux," I say.
My entire development environment runs on Free Software. And although I use
it to write Free Software, people can easily use a similar setup for any
administrative, commercial, educational, or research purpose.
So, this begs the question: does Piracy HELP Nonfree Software? It wouldn't
be the first time that crime is paradoxically encouraged. The CIA will
wonder how this message got caught by their filter, until I suggest that
they might use drugs and arms as currency in foreign affairs. (The good
thing about not being a US Citizen is that I'm free to say that without
getting a knock at the door from men in black suits. We have ASIO, but
they probably already have me on file anyway!)
--
Warwick
--
_-_|\ war...@cs.uq.oz.au \ Microsoft is not the answer, Microsoft
/ * <- Comp Science Department,\ is the question. NO is the answer.
\_.-._/ University of Queensland,)
v Brisbane, Australia. / Intel Inside? Don't Divide!
la...@imap1.asu.edu
: Linux 95 and Life without Microsoft
A dream well worth attaining.
: around the world, from which Bill Gates do not earn much. What's left
: to follow him are the SOHO (small office / home office) users, those who
: don't know much about computer, and also computer vendors who don't know
: much about computer, and computer press who don't know much about
: computer.
Oh, you mean the general population.
: Windows 95 may replace Windows 3.x, but even more users will migrate to
: Linux. In the PC OS war, there seems to leave no space for OS/2. IBM
Only if Bill Gates says so.
: doesn't really need OS/2 to survive. Windows 95 is extremely important
: to Bill Gates. But his strategy for the server and network is doomed to
: failure by Linux. It was only a year ago when the popular argument was
: that NT will replace Unix. It is clear now the King is still the King.
: Microsoft will need to survive on Windows 95 and Microsoft Office.
Don't worry, there are plenty of idiots out there to keep filling his wallet.
: The success of Microsoft Office has put off many software developers
: for Windows. It is sensible for them to migrate and they can now
: migrate to Linux and X-Windows quite easily. The Microsoft compiler
: suit will no longer sell. Give Linux 95 one more year, we will see
: major applications appearing on Linux platform. This was how
: applications appeared on the dumb DOS platform 10 years ago. Never mind
: not many user friendly applications on Linux at the moment, the
: important thing is the development tools which are now more than
: complete and yet free!
I hope so.
: When good applications appear on Linux, Microsoft stronghold on the
: Office suit will be threatened. Bill Gates has only one more year to
: enjoy his fortune. When this happens, I suggest Bill Gates move his
: Office suit to Linux, just like what he did for MacOS. Microsoft is
: recognised as an application company as their other attempts fail
: miserably. Microsoft will not enjoy the advantage of knowing both the OS
: and the applications on Linux however. They have to compete equally and
: fairly.
Hmmm... in order for them to compete, they will have to become competent.
<SNIP>
: Linux 95 may not nail Bill Gates into coffin. It however empowers users
: with the freedom to live without Microsoft.
THANK GOD!
: Friends don't let friends become Microslave. So you know where you want
: to go today.
Yeah, back to the arms of AMI! :)
*****************************************************************************
| When the heart rules, foolish actions result. | Stephen S. Edwards II at |
| When the mind rules, we are led astray. | Silvertip Productions |
| When the spirit rules, we are invincible! | - la...@asu.edu - |
*****************************************************************************
Hallvard Paulsen
|
| We all agree, Linux is the greatest thing since the pop-up toaster, but
| let's not bury our heads in the sand, shall we? Personal computers are
| not just about the "computer literati" anymore, they're finally about
| real users doing real things and not really caring how it gets done.
| Until you win THEM over, you're still one of the seven dwarves (which is
| not an inherently bad thing, as long as you're not Dopey :^> )
I don't agree: People using DOS/windows quickly find that they
can not do any real work without caring about how it is done.
If they don't care, all their work is very likely to end in
the "big heaven of data". Simple things like printing the final
document to paper is often very difficult on any Windows (3.1x)
system and many hours of extra work time is therefore often wasted.
Windows can be used in less critical situations, but
if we are talking about getting the work done, forget this
"OS" before you get into deep trouble. (Just some friendly advise
from one who has really suffered from the instability of Windows)
| --
| Garrett P. Nievin | Aging freshman at Grouch Marx U.
| "Oh, that I had wings like a dove! for | All opinions stated here are
| then I would fly away, and be at rest." | probably not shared by anyone,
| Psalms 55:6 | least of all my employer.
--
Hallvard Paulsen
John M Dow
companies (no names mentioned) is the fact that they release bug-ridden software, selling for
500+\quid then, 3 months later, when the product is actually finished, they release it again
under the title Crap Program version 4.5+gti-turbo-fuel_injection, whatever. That's all very
well, but then they tell registered users "since you already use our application we'll be very
generous and fix the bugs you've paid 500\quid for, for only 85\quid". Good of them, isn't it.
All right, every program is bound to have some bugs in (except quicksort), but surely this
attitude is preying on the businessmen who believe everything Mr Gates tells them (like, "the
Information Superhighway is here!"?????!!!?!).
As far as windows being in the domain of Small Office, Home office, that simply compounds the
crime. Which small office can afford to pay 500+80(bug fixes) for an application?
Anyway, that's my rant for the day.
IMHO the free software foundation, Linux project, and GNU, are what computing is really about.
cheers.
john dow
Christopher B. Browne
Hallvard Paulsen <hall...@immpc18.marina.unit.no> wrote:
>In article <3kdias$e...@portal.gmu.edu> gni...@osf1.gmu.edu (GarrettZilla) writes:
>| We all agree, Linux is the greatest thing since the pop-up toaster, but
>| let's not bury our heads in the sand, shall we? Personal computers are
>| not just about the "computer literati" anymore, they're finally about
>| real users doing real things and not really caring how it gets done.
>
>can not do any real work without caring about how it is done.
>If they don't care, all their work is very likely to end in
>the "big heaven of data". Simple things like printing the final
>document to paper is often very difficult on any Windows (3.1x)
>system and many hours of extra work time is therefore often wasted.
Indeed, it's possible to be in the situation where you're really
*like* to know *how* it is doing things, can't, because the system
tries very hard to prevent you from knowing, and then find yourself
unable to get the job done.
I've processed rather large documents (>150 pages) on hardware
with insufficient oomph to run Windoze without losing data.
I now have this "system operations manual" that a subordinate has
spent some weeks (and a horrifying number of MB) producing using
Word.
a) I can't load the document consistently without Word crashing.
b) If it does load, it's odds-on that I won't be able to get
through the menus to turn protection features off to allow
modifications before Word crashes.
c) Word crashes somewhere within the first 50 pages of printing.
I have the task before me of editing the document, as well as
adding probably another 30 or 40 pages to it.
Would it be a wise idea to pick up a copy of Ami Pro? Converting
to TeX is at this point out of the question. *Far* too late in
the process. (Although if I can find a decent BMP->PS converter,
I might consider it all the same...)
--
Christopher Browne - cbb...@io.org
Fatal Error: Found [MS-Windows] System -> Repartitioning Disk for Linux...
Brian Lane
: | We all agree, Linux is the greatest thing since the pop-up toaster, but
: | let's not bury our heads in the sand, shall we? Personal computers are
: | not just about the "computer literati" anymore, they're finally about
: | real users doing real things and not really caring how it gets done.
: | Until you win THEM over, you're still one of the seven dwarves (which is
: | not an inherently bad thing, as long as you're not Dopey :^> )
: I don't agree: People using DOS/windows quickly find that they
: can not do any real work without caring about how it is done.
: If they don't care, all their work is very likely to end in
: the "big heaven of data". Simple things like printing the final
: document to paper is often very difficult on any Windows (3.1x)
: system and many hours of extra work time is therefore often wasted.
My favoite saying these days is 'A computer is NOT an appliance'
As much as people wish them to be, it is not the case. Alot of the people
I meet as me for advice on what to buy, etc. The first thing I tell them is
to go to their local community college and take a HANDS ON introduction
computer class. Books from the library can help, but are not a good
solution.
My parents are semi-computer literate. They do just fine installing
software, running programs, copying files. Until something goes wrong,
doesn't install right, etc. They are at a loss as to how to figure it out.
As far as the computer has come, people need to realize that it is a very
complicated machine, no matter how 'simple' it looks when you run BOB.
Brian
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Everyone is a prisoner holding their own key." | ftp.eskimo.com/blane
Linux! The choice of a GNU generation | www.eskimo.com/~blane
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Dickens
> Perhaps, with outfits like Infomagic and Walnut Creek, even the
>know-nothings will eventually gravitate towards Linux...
If Linux hadn't been available on CD-ROM, I probably wouldn't have
ended up trying out Linux, but the fact stands that if I had realised the
power that Linux possesses, I would have preferred it NOT being
available on CD-ROM for just anyone. I do believe in uderground
alliances and those that are just "ELITE" and those nobodys running
DOS/Windows.
Don't get me wrong, DOS/Windows & OS/2 ARE for everyone and
are all fine and dandy. (I still use DOS/Windows, but Linux just isn't
for anybody.
Chris Dickens
Cees de Groot
Christopher B. Browne <cbb...@io.org> wrote:
>In article <HALLPAUL.95...@immpc18.marina.unit.no>,
>I now have this "system operations manual" that a subordinate has
>spent some weeks (and a horrifying number of MB) producing using
>Word.
>
[...]
Had the same problem at a customer's site where I started off writing some
tech doc in WordPerfect, their standard. After a couple of weeks, I told
them ``hey guys, I'm way too expensive to fool around with Windows'', installed
Linux and went on writing in TeX. BTW, the conversion was *very* easy, because
I consistently used styles. I just had to change the `Chapter' style to
read '\chapter{...}' and so on, and converted about 200 pages in a matter
of hours.
>Would it be a wise idea to pick up a copy of Ami Pro? Converting
>to TeX is at this point out of the question. *Far* too late in
>the process. (Although if I can find a decent BMP->PS converter,
>I might consider it all the same...)
xv does the job. Ami Pro will still be slow, IMHO, because the problem is
Windoze, not the application. What's also very important: dvips generates
outstanding PostScript quality, a manual of >300 pages (including graphics,
company logo on every page, ...) prints in 20 min. on a 16ppm Laserjet. Try
that with the broken Windoze PostScribble generator.
--
Cees de Groot, OpenLink Ltd. <c...@tricbbs.fn.sub.org> CI$ 100525,1102
PGP23a: 73 5D BA 7C F8 EF DD 65 56 68 AF BB 2B 58 2C 8B [Key on servers]
<A HREF=http://www.decus.de/people/de_groot/bio.html>Click</A>
-- Letzte RAMstelle vor der Datenautobahn
Scot W. Stevenson
: Just about all the people I know with their own UNIX boxes
: are running NetBSD, or FreeBSD. When I tell them about the newsgroups, the
: ftp sites, the constant kernel updates, they cringe... They're like, "that's
: kind of stupid, and unreliable, and it makes me nervous".
What might need to be stressed more is the difference between those kernels
that are 'for use' like 1.0.9 (yep, that's still me) and 1.1.something,
that are to play with. Tell them that Linux has two kinds of kernels,
and that the 1.2n are as good as anything else I have seen.
Y, Scot
--
Scot W. Stevenson sc...@catzen.gun.de Essen, Germany
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you
would not have come here." --- Alice in Wonderland
Ioi K. Lam
: >| We all agree, Linux is the greatest thing since the pop-up toaster, but
: >| let's not bury our heads in the sand, shall we? Personal computers are
: >| not just about the "computer literati" anymore, they're finally about
: >| real users doing real things and not really caring how it gets done.
: >
: >can not do any real work without caring about how it is done.
: >If they don't care, all their work is very likely to end in
: >the "big heaven of data". Simple things like printing the final
: >document to paper is often very difficult on any Windows (3.1x)
: >system and many hours of extra work time is therefore often wasted.
I don't agree: yes, you can do real work on MS Windows if all you need
to do is word-processing, and that covers 90% of the PC users. It is a
sad thing that Linux doesn't have anything comparable to Word or
Excel. Right, you can say Gnu this-and-that is close enough to
Word+Excel+Access+Power Point, but I don't think many PC users will
buy that.
Look, I am Unix guy. I do all my work on the SGI and I love Unix as a
programming environment. Whenever I use any MS product my blood
pressure goes up by 100 -- I just hate it. But reality is, we have to
live with this big pile of MS shit until someone comes up with some
mainstream software.
Ioi
Graham Wheeler
>I have the task before me of editing the document, as well as
>adding probably another 30 or 40 pages to it.
>Would it be a wise idea to pick up a copy of Ami Pro? Converting
>to TeX is at this point out of the question. *Far* too late in
>the process. (Although if I can find a decent BMP->PS converter,
>I might consider it all the same...)
Unless the document contains lots of fancy formatting, you may be wrong to
write off TeX. If all you want is a plain docuemnt with contents, index,
sectioning, etc, you could probably convert from exported ASCII to LaTeX
in an hour or so.
Gram
Hallvard Paulsen
Christopher B. Browne (cbb...@io.org) wrote:
: In article <HALLPAUL.95...@immpc18.marina.unit.no>,
: Hallvard Paulsen <hall...@immpc18.marina.unit.no> wrote:
: >| We all agree, Linux is the greatest thing since the pop-up toaster, but
: >| let's not bury our heads in the sand, shall we? Personal computers are
: >| not just about the "computer literati" anymore, they're finally about
: >| real users doing real things and not really caring how it gets done.
: >
: >I don't agree: People using DOS/windows quickly find that they
: >can not do any real work without caring about how it is done.
: >If they don't care, all their work is very likely to end in
: >the "big heaven of data". Simple things like printing the final
: >document to paper is often very difficult on any Windows (3.1x)
: >system and many hours of extra work time is therefore often wasted.
> I don't agree: yes, you can do real work on MS Windows if all you need
> to do is word-processing, and that covers 90% of the PC users.
My experience is that given you do not write anything longer than
a 2 page letter you might never have any problem. If you try to
write a technical paper of about 10-15 pages (with some equations
and graphs), you *will* have some problems, but some days of unpaid
overtime is probably enough to get you through before the dead-line.
(But I have also seen WP fail to print documents containing nothing but
a single (large) PCX image.)
I tried to write my thesis using WP (version 5.1 to 6.0a for windows),
but after reaching approximately 50 pages of text (including many
cross references, footnotes, and included figures and equations) there
was no way to get anything printed out anymore. I even got an error
message from WP, but it was not listed in any manual (talking to the
support people revealed that they didn't have a list of error messages
either). Also for this size document the generation of the document
would take about 30. minutes (before I could try to print it, which
didn't work).
I found that if I was ever going to finish my thesis, I had to
find a better "document processing system" (that is what WP calls its
versions 6.0+ in their advertising). I quickly found out that LaTeX
does what I want, and also is *much* more user friendly since it does
automatically what WP can only achieve using multiple keystrokes,
mouse moving and so on (Yes, I have tried to make macros, but this is
in fact a small computer program by its own right, and therefore needs
debugging. I only want to get that damed text into the document, I
don't want to waste any time *programming* the word-processor!)
My coworkers saw me as the "WP-guru" in the group and came to me
whenever they were having problems. They still do, but now I have
completely given up on that crap since I found that many of the
problems is simply the result of using the wrong tool for the job. I
also know that the combination LaTeX/linux is rock solid and works
great on the typical computer we have around the office (486, 16 MB),
so there is no reason to not make the switch. Also linux is rock solid
doing any other task that needs to be done.
> It is a
> sad thing that Linux doesn't have anything comparable to Word or
> Excel. Right, you can say Gnu this-and-that is close enough to
> Word+Excel+Access+Power Point, but I don't think many PC users will
> buy that.
Well, even the secretaries (who do the writing for the professors
around here), have no problems of discovering that there are
significant problems in WP and windows. In fact they usually prefer
to use WP 5.1 for dos when the want to be certain that things will
work. They find all the menus very confusing, and do not need much of
the functionality it provides anyway. What they do need is the
equation editor that WP provides and that's why this program was
installed in the first place.
> Look, I am Unix guy. I do all my work on the SGI and I love Unix as a
> programming environment. Whenever I use any MS product my blood
> pressure goes up by 100 -- I just hate it. But reality is, we have to
> live with this big pile of MS shit until someone comes up with some
> mainstream software.
I am a mechanical engineer, trying to do some "real work" on the
computers I have available. It is more or less impossible to achieve
this if I have to use windows based programs (and I really tried hard
to make it work). I might be more of a "power" user than most, so the
problems related to windows affect me to a larger degree than most of
my coworkers, but they also see the problem. The problem can be
solved, all the SW is available for free with linux. One only has to
make the switch and the world is suddenly a better place for *all*
computer users.
Back to the starting point. Yes, you can use Word or WP or whatever
for windows to write your 2 page letters. You could also use a
typewriter. In fact using a 486+ computer to achieve such trivial
tasks is like using a cruise missile to slap a mosquito and does not
enhance productivity in any way. Using the standard linux/unix/gnu
tools is *far* more productive, and anybody not able to see this
should be *forced* to do the switch.
--
Hallvard Paulsen.
Wade Hampton
: L S Ng (ls...@ecs.soton.ac.uk) wrote:
: : Linux 95 and Life without Microsoft
: A dream well worth attaining.
Very much so!
Linux is my favorite O/S. I shutdown my SCO ODT box and and now run Linux
daily..., however....
We need to address several shortcomings of Linux before it has a chance to
overtake Windoze:
1. Wine should run most common programs such as Word, WP61, Corel.
2. Configuration should be "automatic" with minimal prompting.
3. Software packages should be easily installable and self-contained
(install, self-test w/ MD5, uninstall, package utilities....).
4. The UNIX commands should be hidden from the average user (they can't
understand ls to get a directory or grep...).
5. Consistent user interface (e.g., a style guide, look at Emacs under
X vs xrolodex vs WP 51, all are very different).
: : around the world, from which Bill Gates do not earn much. What's left
: Oh, you mean the general population.
Yes, Billy is getting rich on all of us.... What about his plans for the
Internet?
: : Windows 95 may replace Windows 3.x, but even more users will migrate to
: : Linux. In the PC OS war, there seems to leave no space for OS/2. IBM
: Only if Bill Gates says so.
IBM has to get their S**H together before OS/2 gains acceptance. They
still have too many problems.... Warp is nice but warped....
: Don't worry, there are plenty of idiots out there to keep filling his wallet.
And sometimes we have to, as our companies require DOS as a platform or MS
Word or such...
: : The success of Microsoft Office has put off many software developers
: I hope so.
Yes, but there is more money to be made for Windoze/95,96,97... so more
are developing for it...
: : When good applications appear on Linux, Microsoft stronghold on the
: : Office suit will be threatened. Bill Gates has only one more year to
: Hmmm... in order for them to compete, they will have to become competent.
Yea right. I tried the first NT release - need I say more.
: <SNIP>
: : Linux 95 may not nail Bill Gates into coffin. It however empowers users
: : with the freedom to live without Microsoft.
: THANK GOD!
Yes! It has a real chance to make significant inroads into desktop O/S
market. For the first time, Unix on a PC is a viable, cost-effective
option (pls. note, SCO is part owned by Microsoft.... wonder why their
products are priced so high....).
: : Friends don't let friends become Microslave. So you know where you want
: : to go today.
It may already be too late, however lets keep the faith!
Wade Hampton (tas...@tmn.com)
Jeff Dege
: cbb...@io.org (Christopher B. Browne) writes:
: >Would it be a wise idea to pick up a copy of Ami Pro? Converting
: >to TeX is at this point out of the question. *Far* too late in
: >the process. (Although if I can find a decent BMP->PS converter,
: >I might consider it all the same...)
: Unless the document contains lots of fancy formatting, you may be wrong to
: write off TeX. If all you want is a plain docuemnt with contents, index,
: sectioning, etc, you could probably convert from exported ASCII to LaTeX
: in an hour or so.
I could do it in an hour or two with the standard unix text-processing
tools (vi, awk, sed, et al.) If I had to use the tools that come with MsDOS,
it'd take me weeks.
--
Nearly every electrical engineer believes deep in his heart that he
is a better at writing computer programs than any computer programmer,
and can show as proof the fact that he has written a number of small
applications, each of which was done quickly, easily, and exactly met
his needs.
D. Kobey
>
>Mark A. Stevens MD <mste...@shrinkatron.utmb.edu> wrote:
>
>Some of us are just sick of seeing Microsoft bully their way past all of
>their competitors.
>
>>We'd all like to be as rich as Bill, as
>>able to push around the small guys as Microsoft, etc - could that be part
>>of it?
>
>Not for me anyway. I don't want to be as rich as Bill. I'd be happy with
>a "measly" million or two. Clearly, it is something more than money that
>motivates Bill Gates. It is _power_. I don't _want_ to push people around,
>I am not a bully. Desire to force your will on people is an evil thing.
>
Bully their way past all of their competitors? Absolute trash! I don't love
Microsoft or anything, but let's look at the facts...
Mainstream Operating Systems
MS-DOS
IBM PC-DOS
DR DOS
OS/2
All of these systems have their own niche. PC-DOS and DR DOS hold a large part of
the corporate market. Financial institutions are dominated by OS/2.
Word Processors
WordPerfect --- The most popular word processor of all times.
Word 6.0 --- Not a large market share
Ami Pro
The comparisons can go on forever, but it's clear that Microsoft doesn't dominate the
market. Look at how NT floundered.
D. Kobey
>I found this entire letter equally ridiculous.
True.
One thought to ponder upon...
What is Microsoft's crime anyways? Is success a crime?
Does Microsoft really have a monopoly on the PC market? I don't think so.
D. Kobey
Jeffrey J. Kosowsky
> The CIA will
> wonder how this message got caught by their filter, until I suggest that
> they might use drugs and arms as currency in foreign affairs. (The good
> thing about not being a US Citizen is that I'm free to say that without
> getting a knock at the door from men in black suits. We have ASIO, but
> they probably already have me on file anyway!)
> Warwick
> --
Can you say PARANOID?
Can you say FREEDOM of SPEECH?
Jeff
Software Developers
>In article <3kfqqm$u...@insosf1.infonet.net>, sw...@worf.infonet.net says...
>>Mark A. Stevens MD <mste...@shrinkatron.utmb.edu> wrote:
>>
>>Some of us are just sick of seeing Microsoft bully their way past all of
>>their competitors.
>>
>>>We'd all like to be as rich as Bill, as
>>>able to push around the small guys as Microsoft, etc - could that be part
>>>of it?
>>
>>Not for me anyway. I don't want to be as rich as Bill. I'd be happy with
>>a "measly" million or two. Clearly, it is something more than money that
>>motivates Bill Gates. It is _power_. I don't _want_ to push people around,
>>I am not a bully. Desire to force your will on people is an evil thing.
>>
>
>Bully their way past all of their competitors?
Not all yet... but so far, most. Give them time, and nobody standing
up to them and saying no to their tactics, and it will be all. There does
not appear to be any limits to Bill Gates' ambitions. And Bill Gates is
nothing if not tenacious.
>Absolute trash!
At worst, maybe a bit exaggerated, but "absolute trash", no, for it to
be that, there would have to be no truth to it at all.
>I don't love
>Microsoft or anything, but let's look at the facts...
The facts are, that despite my wishing that Microsoft didn't in
fact control the lion's share of the market, they do. And the fact
that the trade press in general (with a few notable and thankful
exceptions) seems to instantly peg any competitor to Microsoft as an
also-ran doesn't help matters.
>Mainstream Operating Systems
> MS-DOS
Combined with PC-DOS, MS-DOS probably controls at least 3/4 of the
market.
> IBM PC-DOS
Which is mostly licensed from Microslop, and sales on non-IBM hardware are
small.
> DR DOS
Which has been pulled from the market because Novell is under pressure
from Microsoft to drop competing products, and ever had very large sales
to begin with, despite generally being a superior product.
> OS/2
A slow performer sales wise until Warp came along, and also originally
codeveloped and pushed by Microslop. Most people use it to run MS-DOS
or MS-Windows applications.
>All of these systems have their own niche. PC-DOS and DR DOS hold a large part of
>the corporate market. Financial institutions are dominated by OS/2.
Niche != mainstream. All of the sales of non-MS operating systems for PC's
is still less than 1/2 the total market. And with MS's traditional per-CPU
licensing, they were selling a copy for most PC's that would end up running
a non-MS OS as well...
And as far as GUI environments go, Windoze 3.1 & NT together by far
dwarf OS/2, which is unfortunately the only serious commercial competitor
with any significant sales.
>Word Processors
> WordPerfect --- The most popular word processor of all times.
And rapidly losing market share to MS-Word.
> Word 6.0 --- Not a large market share
By who's reckoning? Sales seem to indicate its share is significant and
growing, despite numerous problems with the product.
> Ami Pro
Not nearly as popular as either of the other two, despite some seemingly
substantial technical superiorities to the other two.
>The comparisons can go on forever, but it's clear that Microsoft doesn't dominate the
>market.
They do more than any company has since IBM in the 70's. Look at development
tools... Microslop has made huge inroads against former market leader
Borland... Look at spreadsheets where Excel has stolen away a huge chunk of
the market from Lotus 1-2-3 and Quatro Pro. Look at databases where
Access and FoxPro have stolen away a large part of the market from Paradox
and dBase.
What makes Microslop dangerous is that they control not only a large part
of the OS market, but they also control a large and growing part of the
applications market... They have no competitor who can compete with them
across the board and they are setting things up so that it may be impossible
for anyone to do that.
>Look at how NT floundered.
Its time hasn't come yet. Like it or not, it probably will become
popular. And at any rate, one setback doesn't prove they don't control
most of the market. Not every announced or shipped Microslop product
needs to be a mega blockbuster for MS to benefit. It appears that NT is
mainly a checklist item so that Microslop can check off "posix
compatibility" for government contracts and "multi-platform" for
corporate contracts. Then Microslop "baits & switches" people down into
Windoze 3.1 or Windoze 95... It was sort of a "place holder" for them
to keep their PR machine going while they worked in the background on
Windoze 95... It also has a small niche as a server platform, despite
numerous problems, the utter cheapness of SQL Server (product dumping,
a classic unethical trade practice) is fueling some sales for it...
tim werner
>Date: 28 Mar 1995 18:08:13 GMT
>
>The CIA guys don't wear black suits and walk up to peoples doors, now
>they just send a small death ray at you and <pooof> your gone! Never
>to be seen or read again ;)... Keep your head down.. They don't care
>what country your in.. or didn't you know that?
"Who can kill a general in his bed?
Overthrow dictators if they're red?
Fuckin-a man, fuckin-a, fuckin cia."
- Fugs, ca 1967
--
Do not drink coffee in early A.M. It will keep you awake until noon.
Joe Sloan
>
>What is Microsoft's crime anyways? Is success a crime?
>Does Microsoft really have a monopoly on the PC market? I don't think so.
>
arm-twisting, hardball tactics they use to try to monopolize the PC
world - (e.g. telling PC vendors that they Must install and sell a
copy of ms-dos and ms-windows on every single computer they sell
or else microsoft will refuse to do business with them)
Thank God the justice department is starting to take a look at some
of this garbage! I don't expect to see microsoft go away, but at least
it would be nice to avoid being continually smothered and dominated by
a mandatory microsoft presence everywhere.
Food for thought: edlin was, for years, the worlds most popular editor,
based on the installed base - why? (hint: it was not what people chose)
Joe - very proud to be running microsoft-free!
--
Email to: | Running Linux! (Slackware)
j...@dostoevsky.ucr.edu | because a 486 is a terrible
j...@ucrengr.ucr.edu | thing to waste...
John Wagner
The CIA guys don't wear black suits and walk up to peoples doors, now
they just send a small death ray at you and <pooof> your gone! Never
to be seen or read again ;)... Keep your head down.. They don't care
what country your in.. or didn't you know that?
John
P.S. Hey, What's that sound that I he.... <poof>
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ Heck even I don't know what I do, so the company can't. +
+ empire isn't a game, it's a world ruled by elves! :) +
+ Bowling IS a sport, and if you don't believe me, I'll beat'ya +
+ jwa...@mitre.org | John Wagner | PH# (703)883-3740 +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Darin Johnson
> >Does Microsoft really have a monopoly on the PC market? I don't think so.
> >
> Well, it's not "success" per se that bothers most folks - it's the
> arm-twisting, hardball tactics they use to try to monopolize the PC
I read where Bill Gates was defending Microsoft was not
anti-competitive and said how they were helping industry,
and "declared that in fact the company has made huge investments in
creating new computers standards, ..."
I had to laugh when I read that, because Microsofts's "standards" are
one of the ways they hurt competitiveness. Microsoft ignores
*existing* standards, and writes their own, as well as discouraging
other companies to do the same (ie, screaming at Apple for doing their
OpenDoc thingy). Standards meant to work across multiple platforms
need to be developed by more than just one platform manufacturer.
Sure, it's fine for Microsoft to design OLE for MSDOS and Windows, but
when they declare that other systems should use it (and pay for it?),
they're out of their jurisdiction. And when they ignore CORBA, it
just means they're like the typical PC user - out of touch with what
the rest of the industry is doing.
--
Darin Johnson
djoh...@ucsd.edu -- How come my mind went off for lunch before I did?
Michael Wise
>The facts are, that despite my wishing that Microsoft didn't in
>fact control the lion's share of the market, they do. And the fact
>that the trade press in general (with a few notable and thankful
>exceptions) seems to instantly peg any competitor to Microsoft as an
>also-ran doesn't help matters.
>
>And as far as GUI environments go, Windoze 3.1 & NT together by far
>dwarf OS/2, which is unfortunately the only serious commercial competitor
>with any significant sales.
>
No one has mentioned Geoworks. All in all, the desktop Geoworks Ensemble
2.0, with word processor (GeoWrite, which has excellent printing
facilities for everything from an Epson to Postscript, graphics
capabilities, filters to export/import from other wp formats),
spreadsheet (GeoCalc, again with imp/exp, not as flat-out powerful as
Quattro Pro, but who needs multi-linear regression to do taxes?),
database (GeoFile, imp/exp, etc.), drawing program (GeoDraw, with
handling for TIFF, GIF, etc., which is the real value here since I don't
draw), little calendars, calculators, rolodexes, clocks, a
dumber-than-shit comms program, is flat-out a superior product to Windows.
First, it is a pre-emptive multitasking system that can run on a 286 in
less than 2 megs of RAM. It uses virtual memory, taking any configured
memory and using it, and resorting to swap when necessary. It doesn't
matter how many apps are open. It will fit on ten megabytes of diskspace.
It was the first OS fully coded using OPP. It was written entirely in
assembly to enhance performance. It uses DOS only for the filesystem. It
is extremely configurable, both from the interface and by modifying the
configuration file (though this is unsupported by Geoworks, it is
well-documented and quite safe). It costs $80 direct from Geoworks.
And if you have never heard of this system, it is because the company
doesn't want its product to be noticed by MicroSoft. Right now, it is
playing to a niche market it practically invented, providing OSs for PDAs
(where CPUs, diskspace, and memory are much more limited than on
desktops). Right now, it is afraid that M$ deal with Intuit is going to
screw Quicken off the PDAs where it runs under Geos. Serious Geos fans
really hate M$, because Geos is far superior, especially in the home
computing market. What could be easier than "Choose your printer off this
list to get full-fledged graphics printing, in all font sizes and
styles"?
--
"I dont hate it," Quentin said quickly, at once, immediately; "I dont
hate it," he said. I dont hate it he thought, panting in the cold air,
the iron New England dark: I dont. I dont. I dont hate it! I dont hate it!
Michael Wise <wwhi...@nevada.edu> Living Hemingwayesque
Kazimir Kylheku
Jeff Dege <jd...@winternet.com> wrote:
>Graham Wheeler (gr...@aztec.co.za) wrote:
>: cbb...@io.org (Christopher B. Browne) writes:
>
>: Unless the document contains lots of fancy formatting, you may be wrong to
>: write off TeX. If all you want is a plain docuemnt with contents, index,
>: sectioning, etc, you could probably convert from exported ASCII to LaTeX
>: in an hour or so.
>
> I could do it in an hour or two with the standard unix text-processing
>tools (vi, awk, sed, et al.) If I had to use the tools that come with MsDOS,
>it'd take me weeks.
How about writing a Lex/Yacc translator that will do RTF -> TeX? I
have no idea what RTF looks like, but if Chris can send me a
substantial portion of the the text in RTF form, I could knock off the
job in probably very little time. It's just a matter of parsing the
RTF and generating the right TeX control sequences.
Chris, you should have known better than to take on a large document
with a M$ application and operating system! Serves you right! :)
---
Hey, I just did a quick run of the net to look for .rtf files. Is it
just my imagination or are these basically TeX!?!? Is this the same
RTF that's used as a common interchange medium between
word-processors?
The few RTF files that I just downloaded look exactly like TeX with a
few extra control sequences that are obviously not plainTeX.
Where does one get the definitions for these control sequences?
Bob Hauck
>Hey, I just did a quick run of the net to look for .rtf files. Is it
>just my imagination or are these basically TeX!?!? Is this the same
>RTF that's used as a common interchange medium between
>word-processors?
>
>The few RTF files that I just downloaded look exactly like TeX with a
>few extra control sequences that are obviously not plainTeX.
>
>Where does one get the definitions for these control sequences?
MS _used_ to have a document that specified the RTF format. I
have one someplace, but it's way out of date, as MS seems to add
stuff with each new release of Word, and I haven't got a new one
since Word 1.1a.
You might try ftp.microsoft.com.
---
Bob Hauck Wasatch Communications Group
bo...@wasatch.com Data (24 hrs): 801-272-3792
Scot W. Stevenson
: world - (e.g. telling PC vendors that they Must install and sell a
: copy of ms-dos and ms-windows on every single computer they sell
: or else microsoft will refuse to do business with them)
This can backfire, thank God - one major German vedor over here got fed
up with Microsoft and told them to get lost, switched to OS/2. It is
rumored to at least have gotten MS to sit down and think for a moment.
Y, Scot, who always thought that 'Microsoft' was a stupid name for a
software company anyway =X)...
Kazimir Kylheku
Bob Hauck <bo...@wasatch.com> wrote:
>In <3ldscr...@keats.ugrad.cs.ubc.ca>, c2a...@ugrad.cs.ubc.ca (Kazimir Kylheku) writes:
>
>>Where does one get the definitions for these control sequences?
>
>MS _used_ to have a document that specified the RTF format. I
>have one someplace, but it's way out of date, as MS seems to add
>stuff with each new release of Word, and I haven't got a new one
>since Word 1.1a.
>
>You might try ftp.microsoft.com.
No thanks. I popped into sunsite.unc.edu and found a whole bunch of
goodies that would be helpful in Chris' undertaking.
There is software to to RTF -> TeX, and also TeX -> RTF. I have tried
the former. It works well -- a combination of C translator plus a .tex
file containing some definitions that all converted TeX documents have
to include. I did a trial run on a small (30K) RTF document. The
resulting code did produce some minor errors -- all caused by the
presence of a { \/} sequence -- which can easily be ignored or edited
out. One small glitch was that the generated \input command that reads
the basic definitions ended up being preceded by one control sequence
that needs one of the definitions. I had to manually edit the file to
get the command to appear in the right place.
There are apparently two systems for going directly from Word to TeX,
under the directories word_tex and word2tex.
Look in the directory /pub/packages/TeX/support on sunsite.unc.edu
Good luck...
Kazimir Kylheku
Hallvard Paulsen <hall...@immpc18.marina.unit.no> wrote:
>I found that if I was ever going to finish my thesis, I had to
>find a better "document processing system" (that is what WP calls its
>versions 6.0+ in their advertising). I quickly found out that LaTeX
>does what I want, and also is *much* more user friendly since it does
Yup. Just look at the GNU C Library reference text. It's over 650
pages long! ...and it's all done using LaTeX. You should see the cool
indices it has for cross-referencing information in a variety of ways.
A friend of mine recently dumped that to a printer and had it nicely
bound. What a beauty...
Wade Hampton
: In article <3l8d5s$5...@potogold.rmii.com>, D. Kobey <dko...@rct.com> wrote:
: >
: >What is Microsoft's crime anyways? Is success a crime?
: >Does Microsoft really have a monopoly on the PC market? I don't think so.
to 100M copies of DOS/Windoze vs about 5-6M for OS/2. Anyone with more
than 50-60% of the market and who has the type of marketing clout they
have is a monopoly. They announce a new product and the market waits for
their new product even when there are others to be purchased; they then
delay shipment several times and finally ship a bug-ridden product. The
promises of NT hurt OS/2. The promises of Win95 are again hurting OS/2,
however the market is now starting to consider it (IBM is selling lots of
Warp and with the new Warp with integrated Windoze - who knows).
: Well, it's not "success" per se that bothers most folks - it's the
: arm-twisting, hardball tactics they use to try to monopolize the PC
: world - (e.g. telling PC vendors that they Must install and sell a
: copy of ms-dos and ms-windows on every single computer they sell
: or else microsoft will refuse to do business with them)
I think it is a combination of success and their tactics. Microsoft is
using the same approach to business that IBM did during the 60's and
70's. They are being called Big Green in contrast to IBM's Big Blue.
Did anyone read the latest InfoWorld? They had a very good article on
Win95's "final" beta. Win95 "final" beta crashes when they try to run MS
network and a few 32 bit apps (BTW I run WP60, Emacs, GCC, networking...
under Linux at the same time - haven't seen it crash -- have you Bill Gates?).
MS found out about the problem in Jan but did not fix it and shipped
their "final" beta to 400K or so customers in Mid March.... sounds kind
of like Intel, EH?
: Food for thought: edlin was, for years, the worlds most popular editor,
My comments on Wine were my own food for thought. I would like to be
able to be MS free, and DOS free; however, so far I am not (almost but not
quite).
Someone else mentioned Word as not having a large market share. I
believe that it gained most of the market for Windows wordprocessing as
WP51 for windows was a) very late, b) very buggy. Anyone have any hard
figures on this? WP60 appears to be a good program - I have both Windoze
and SCO (Linux) versions running....
Wade Hampton (tas...@tmn.com)
Larry Hastings
>I don't love Microsoft or anything, but let's look at the facts...
> WordPerfect --- The most popular word processor of all times.
> Word 6.0 --- Not a large market share
Actually, Microsoft Word has now outsold Word Perfect.
A while ago, Microsoft had a campaign for Word saying something like
"The world's favorite word processor" or something equally bland.
Word Perfect complained, or sued, or something, saying that Word
Perfect must hold that title, since it had sold more copies. Microsoft
retracted the ad campaign, but later checked up on the numbers
involved, and were (pleasantly) suprised to find out that Word had
overtaken Word Perfect. Word has definitely been outselling Word
Perfect for a while; but Word Perfect has a _huge_ installed base.
I don't know what the numbers are; I expect most of Word's licences
are on Windows, wheras most of Word Perfect's are on DOS. (Initial
versions of WP for Windows were for hard-core WP people only; it's
only the last major rev or two that the interface has really started
to shine.) These days, more than half of all word processors are
sold as part of a bundled suite of applications--and Word is part
of Microsoft Office, definitely the most popular suite.
--
larry hastings, the galactic funkster, funk...@hyperion.com
"You can call me Humpy, but don't call me Dinky!" --Englebert Humperdink
<a href="http://www.hyperion.com/~funkster">My WWW homepage</a>
Tom Brown
>be the first time that crime is paradoxically encouraged. The CIA will
>wonder how this message got caught by their filter, until I suggest that
>they might use drugs and arms as currency in foreign affairs. (The good
>thing about not being a US Citizen is that I'm free to say that without
>getting a knock at the door from men in black suits. We have ASIO, but
>they probably already have me on file anyway!)
The CIA usually hires locals to carry out overseas contract killings.
Not that they'd target you or anything. Oh, and the CIA already does
use drugs and arms as foreign affairs currency. Old news, well documented.
G. David Kuhlman
: ... And with MS's traditional per-CPU
: licensing, they were selling a copy for most PC's that would end up running
: a non-MS OS as well...
That makes me mad. That makes me real mad.
How about this plan. Next time any of you buy a PC from a company that
bundles MS Windows and MS Windows apps with the computer, tell them
that you don't want the MS Windows stuff and you want $100 off
for not taking it. And if they won't agree, threaten to send a
letter to Judge Sporkin (the guy who rejected the MS/US Justice
dept agreement). And if they still don't agree, really send the
letter.
OK. So maybe it would just be a therapy crank letter. But, then
again, it might do some good.
--
----------------------
Dave Kuhlman
Reify, Redwood City, CA
Internet: dkuh...@netcom.com
----------------------
James LewisMoss
>: ... And with MS's traditional per-CPU
>: licensing, they were selling a copy for most PC's that would end up running
>: a non-MS OS as well...
>That makes me mad. That makes me real mad.
>How about this plan. Next time any of you buy a PC from a company that
>bundles MS Windows and MS Windows apps with the computer, tell them
>that you don't want the MS Windows stuff and you want $100 off
>for not taking it. And if they won't agree, threaten to send a
>letter to Judge Sporkin (the guy who rejected the MS/US Justice
>dept agreement). And if they still don't agree, really send the
>letter.
>OK. So maybe it would just be a therapy crank letter. But, then
>again, it might do some good.
Recently (about eight months ago) I went to get a computer for my
brother (his money, my know how). I got the computer without dos and
windws. Do you know how? I bought parts and built it myself. If I had
bought it pre-built, I would have HAD to buy it with dos and windows.
jim
--
-------------------------------------------------------------
James LewisMoss University of South Carolina |Blessed Be!
mo...@cs.scarolina.edu |Linux is cool!
-------------------------------------------------------------
"Argue for your limitations, and you get to keep them."
Richard Bach
Christopher C. Wood
|> In article <3l8d5s$5...@potogold.rmii.com>, D. Kobey <dko...@rct.com> wrote:
|> >What is Microsoft's crime anyways? Is success a crime? Does
|> >Microsoft really have a monopoly on the PC market? I don't think
|> >so.
There are things that a company can do (usually enabled by being the
big fish) that prevent other companies from competing with a company's
products. Many of these are illegal; see Sherman Act, Clayton act,
etc.
|> Well, it's not "success" per se that bothers most folks - it's the
|> arm-twisting, hardball tactics they use to try to monopolize the PC
|> world - (e.g. telling PC vendors that they Must install and sell a
|> copy of ms-dos and ms-windows on every single computer they sell
|> or else microsoft will refuse to do business with them)
No, Microsoft did not force PC vendors to install a copy of MS-DOS and
Windoze on every computer the vendor sold. They simply forced PC
vendors to _pay_Microsoft_ for every computer sold, whether it had
Microsoft products on it or not. I don't know why the Justice
Department didn't feel that they could prosecute this successfully.
I'd like to have the clout that Microsoft has: to be able to tell
government prosecutors: "We promise to stop doing what you think is
illegal, and you agree to not bother us any more." That would be
nice...
And the deal with Microsoft App developers having access to
documentation for "undocumented" system calls that other developers
lack. Something is wrong there...
|> Thank God the justice department is starting to take a look at some
|> of this garbage!
Judge Sporkin is forcing the Do(i)J to take a look at that garbage...
Chris
--
Speaking only for myself, of course.
Chris Wood chr...@lexis-nexis.com Chris...@aol.com
Chris Ricker
: In article <dkuhlmanD...@netcom.com> dkuh...@netcom.com (G. David Kuhlman) writes:
<CHOMP>
I tried that in August when I ordered my spiffy pentium. The dealer refused,
and I didn't have the time to look around for a different site, because I was
about to leave for school. Of course, the first thing I did when I got it
was reformat the hard drive, so their effort was in vain ;-).
BTW, I ordered from Quantex, a fairly big mail-order type firm.
chris
--
Chris Ricker : gt1...@prism.gatech.edu : Georgia Institute of Technology
Blessed are the young for they shall inherit the national debt.
Dan Pop
>: ... And with MS's traditional per-CPU
>: licensing, they were selling a copy for most PC's that would end up running
>: a non-MS OS as well...
>
>That makes me mad. That makes me real mad.
>
>How about this plan. Next time any of you buy a PC from a company that
>bundles MS Windows and MS Windows apps with the computer, tell them
>that you don't want the MS Windows stuff and you want $100 off
>for not taking it. And if they won't agree, threaten to send a
>letter to Judge Sporkin (the guy who rejected the MS/US Justice
>dept agreement). And if they still don't agree, really send the
>letter.
>
>OK. So maybe it would just be a therapy crank letter. But, then
>again, it might do some good.
What about us, the "poor guys" who are not living in the US?
Is any PC shop in Geneva likely to be impressed by a letter to Judge
Sporkin? :-)
Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email: dan...@afsmail.cern.ch
Mail: CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland
Steve Peltz
Michael Wise <wwhi...@nevada.edu> wrote:
>No one has mentioned Geoworks. All in all, the desktop Geoworks Ensemble
>2.0, with word processor (GeoWrite, which has excellent printing
>facilities for everything from an Epson to Postscript, graphics
>capabilities, filters to export/import from other wp formats),
>spreadsheet (GeoCalc, again with imp/exp, not as flat-out powerful as
>Quattro Pro, but who needs multi-linear regression to do taxes?),
>database (GeoFile, imp/exp, etc.), drawing program (GeoDraw, with
>handling for TIFF, GIF, etc., which is the real value here since I don't
>draw), little calendars, calculators, rolodexes, clocks, a
>dumber-than-shit comms program, is flat-out a superior product to Windows.
>
>First, it is a pre-emptive multitasking system that can run on a 286 in
>less than 2 megs of RAM. It uses virtual memory, taking any configured
>memory and using it, and resorting to swap when necessary. It doesn't
>matter how many apps are open. It will fit on ten megabytes of diskspace.
>It was the first OS fully coded using OPP.
(I assume you meant OOP, but then you go on to talk about it being written
entirely in assembler, so you obviously don't mean an OOP-oriented
programming language, so I'm not sure just what you mean, since any Smalltalk
system is probably the first OS "fully coded using OOP")
Anyway, sounds almost as good as the Lisa operating system (from around
1980), with the Office System 7. 68000, virtual memory (helped by the
compiler), pre-emptive multi-tasking, 1M RAM typical, 5-10M disk
typical, dynamically loaded libraries, generalized object format files
... all in all a heck of a lot nicer operating system than the MacOS
that essentially supplanted it (though the file system needed some work,
but you don't need to be particularly efficient to manage 10M of disk
space - the OS structure was there, which is what counts).
--
Steve Peltz
tri...@uiuc.edu
Bill McCarthy
>
>: ... And with MS's traditional per-CPU
>: licensing, they were selling a copy for most PC's that would end up running
>: a non-MS OS as well...
>
>
>How about this plan. Next time any of you buy a PC from a company that
>bundles MS Windows and MS Windows apps with the computer, tell them
>that you don't want the MS Windows stuff and you want $100 off
>for not taking it. And if they won't agree, threaten to send a
>letter to Judge Sporkin (the guy who rejected the MS/US Justice
>dept agreement). And if they still don't agree, really send the
>letter.
>
>OK. So maybe it would just be a therapy crank letter. But, then
>again, it might do some good.
>
Actually, I've been thinking about doing just that - not necessarily
sending a letter to Hon. Judge Sporkin, but asking for a non-ms hd on
my next machine. I've been looking and drooling at the 100 and the
new 120 pentia in the trade rags recently. But what a waste of good
hardware and disk space - comes with ms-dos 6.whatever and ms-windows
3.1.etc, plus all these wonderful cd-rom....and so on.
I mean, has anyone done this? Call the folks at Dell, Micron, et. al.
and tell 'em to ship the fatest box they got...uh, btw, don't bother
installing the software - how about a credit? he he. Seriously, though.
My next machine is going to be sans dos/windows. I really haven't heard
of anyone ordering this way.
_________________
|| |
|| | |\| |_| \/ |
||___ /\ |
|____| bmcc...@gulfaero.com
Michael Wise
>
>(I assume you meant OOP, but then you go on to talk about it being written
>entirely in assembler, so you obviously don't mean an OOP-oriented
>programming language, so I'm not sure just what you mean, since any Smalltalk
>
OOPs! I'm a dope! Actually, I'm not sure what I mean--the system is not
coded with an object-oriented language--rather, it uses OOP paradigms of
extensibility, code-reuse, objects, etc. However, because it is coded in
assembler, it runs incredibly fast on the most pathetic architectures.
Bear with me, I am a novice. I remember reading a few years back that
"code bloat" was a big problem--especially for systems, like mine at the
time, that ran with less memory and hard drive space than newer systems.
I found out about Geoworks because I knew it ran on a system similar to
mine--a 286 with a small hard drive. I found a copy--wasn't easy--and
fell in love with it. DLLs I had never heard of before: the idea of using
the same code for drawing windows and performing functions through
different applications made so much sense--I didn't know, until Linux,
that other operating systems functioned the same way. Coding the entire
program set in assembly makes the whole thing incredibly small and
efficient--though Linux shows wonderful efficiency as well.
Suffice it to say, I run Linux on 80 megs of my hard drive, and DOS on 40
megs. 10 of those megabytes belong to Geoworks--its word processor,
spreadsheet, database, utility programs, and window capabilities (Motif
built-in). I can do everything I want: Linux for the Internet, Geos for
good document printing and keeping track of my taxes. I want for
nothing--in 120 megs. Now, can a Windows or OS/2 user say the same?
Jeff Dege
: I mean, has anyone done this? Call the folks at Dell, Micron, et. al.
: and tell 'em to ship the fatest box they got...uh, btw, don't bother
: installing the software - how about a credit? he he. Seriously, though.
: My next machine is going to be sans dos/windows. I really haven't heard
: of anyone ordering this way.
I was looking for a machine, and tried a couple of local dealers.
When I said I intended to install Linux, and didn't particularly need
Windows installed, one dealer said ``We're required to install Windows
on any HD we install, it's part of our contract with Microsoft''. The
other said ``Oh. That's a $50 credit.''
Guess who I bought from?
Of course, I was buying a custom box, assembled to my specification,
not a prepackaged system. If you are buying a name-brand system, all
the customization you usually get is someone slapping your address on
the side of the shipping carton. You'll have a hard time convincing
a vendor to break open a box, remove Windows from the HD, seal it all
back up again, and then subtract $50 from your bill.
--
Nearly every electrical engineer believes deep in his heart that he
is a better at writing computer programs than any computer programmer,
and can show as proof the fact that he has written a number of small
applications, each of which was done quickly, easily, and exactly met
his needs.
Bruce D. Scott
_factory_ _installed_. It would have been unreasonable to force the dealer
to break it open and wipe it, and unreasonable squared to do that and then
ask for a credit. The damage was done long ago, when Toshiba signed with
Getas and then passed the cost along to their distributors.
Sometimes I wish these Japanese hardware companies used more of the clout
they are sure to have, to get their products out a little more
competitively. Or maybe they do just that -- and only care about the
Corps.
BTW, I've wiped DOS; I needed the space.
--
Gruss,
Dr Bruce Scott The deadliest bullshit is
Max-Planck-Institut fuer Plasmaphysik odorless and transparent
b...@ipp-garching.mpg.de -- W Gibson
Patrick John Edwards
: One thought to ponder upon...
: What is Microsoft's crime anyways? Is success a crime?
: Does Microsoft really have a monopoly on the PC market? I don't think so.
But he certainly is trying very hard for this. He doesn't care about us, he
only cares about how big his wallet is. Bill doesn't realize that once a
company gets a monopoly on a market the market usually goes stale. VERY
STALE. There is no doubt MS under Bill is very successful, but we pay the
price for his ignorance for 'real' productivity in the market.
--
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Patrick Edwards aka Linux Guerrilla |
| Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus -- We came, we saw, we hacked. |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
Patrick John Edwards
: Hello Joe,
: : world - (e.g. telling PC vendors that they Must install and sell a
: : copy of ms-dos and ms-windows on every single computer they sell
: : or else microsoft will refuse to do business with them)
: This can backfire, thank God - one major German vedor over here got fed
: up with Microsoft and told them to get lost, switched to OS/2. It is
: rumored to at least have gotten MS to sit down and think for a moment.
This is the stuff dreams are made of. I love to here this. If you
have anymore info about this PLEASE email it to me: pje...@cs.usask.sask.ca
: Y, Scot, who always thought that 'Microsoft' was a stupid name for a
: software company anyway =X)...
I agree.
Christopher C. Wood
|> They did; Microsoft discontinued this licensing practice a while
|> ago, back when the DOJ originally published their findings. This
|> was one of the two major rulings; the other was that Microsoft's
|> non-disclosure agreement was too restrictive. Microsoft relaxed
|> that too, months ago.
My point was that there was no punishment for past "indescretions".
It's like a burglar agreeing not to break into any more houses, or
give up his burgling tools.
|> Read "Undocumented DOS" / "Undocumented Windows" to find out what
|> actually happened. In reality, those "undocumented" calls were
|> the worst-kept secrets around; they were in everyone's apps, not
|> just Microsoft's.
So what? Microsoft had a strategy to leverage their dominant position
in the "OS" market to attain dominance in the Software Applications
market. The fact that they bungled the attempt does not releive them
of the repercussions of trying.
Alexander Bottema
> brother (his money, my know how). I got the computer without dos and
> windws. Do you know how? I bought parts and built it myself. If I had
> bought it pre-built, I would have HAD to buy it with dos and windows.
Not necessarily. When I bought my computer (486-DX50, a _long_ time
ago :-)) I demanded that I neither wanted DOS nor Windows. The
salesman asked me if I were going to use OS/2 and tried to convince me
that this was a bad idea, since OS/2 (at that time) wasn't very
stable. With big smiles on my lips I happily announced that I was
going to use UN*X or more particulary Linux on my computer. I was able
to withdraw $100 (for both DOS & Windows) from the original price. Of
course he had to reformat the harddisk to remove preinstalled DOS &
Windows which I really _enjoyed_ :-)
Then I went to a restaurant and ordered food for $100 and it tasted
real good! Very good indeed!
--
Alexander Jean-Claude Bottema | "Vad ska vi göra med alla dom
(Email: al...@csd.uu.se) | som kör DOS/Windows(95)? Vad ska
#include <stddisclaim.h> | vi göra med dom?! Ska vi DÖDA
http://www.csd.uu.se/~alexb/ | dom?! Ska vi det?!" / TeamLinux /
L S Ng
Now this is a common misbelief.
>Don't get me wrong, DOS/Windows & OS/2 ARE for everyone and
>are all fine and dandy. (I still use DOS/Windows, but Linux just isn't
>for anybody.
Where IBM/Microsoft created OS/2 back in the 80s, people said OS/2 just
wasn't for anybody.
Is DOS for easy anybody? Doesn't DOS use command line interface (CLI)?
Doesn't Linux CLI? Is Linux CLI more difficult than DOS CLI? Certainly
not!
I say if Bill Gates buy a copy of Linux kernel from Linus Torvalds, and
help the WINE team finish the project, then he can probably get a real
Windows 95, which can even be better than Windows NT, which is created
by a bunch of VMS engineer.
Windows NT is a baby VMS with a Windows 3.x face. Equally, Bill Gates
can make a baby Unix with a Windows 3.x face if he chooses too. What
would you say about this hypothetical product?
>Chris Dickens
G. David Kuhlman
: sending a letter to Hon. Judge Sporkin, but asking for a non-ms hd on
: my next machine. I've been looking and drooling at the 100 and the
: new 120 pentia in the trade rags recently. But what a waste of good
: hardware and disk space - comes with ms-dos 6.whatever and ms-windows
: 3.1.etc, plus all these wonderful cd-rom....and so on.
: I mean, has anyone done this? Call the folks at Dell, Micron, et. al.
: and tell 'em to ship the fatest box they got...uh, btw, don't bother
: installing the software - how about a credit? he he. Seriously, though.
: My next machine is going to be sans dos/windows. I really haven't heard
: of anyone ordering this way.
And as another alternative, check the Linux Journal for several
companies that sell Pentium machines with Linux installed.
G. David Kuhlman
: Bill McCarthy (bmcc...@gulfaero.com) wrote:
: : In article <dkuhlmanD...@netcom.com> dkuh...@netcom.com (G. David Kuhlman) writes:
: <CHOMP>
: I tried that in August when I ordered my spiffy pentium. The dealer refused,
: and I didn't have the time to look around for a different site, because I was
: about to leave for school. Of course, the first thing I did when I got it
: was reformat the hard drive, so their effort was in vain ;-).
: BTW, I ordered from Quantex, a fairly big mail-order type firm.
Here's another suggestion: Before you buy from one mail-order
company, call a couple of other mail-order companies and ask if
you can get a machine without MS Windows and with Linux installed.
When and if they say "no", you say "no thanks" and hang up.
If enough of us do this, the word might get out that there are
customers for something other that MS Windows.
Richard Ward
Kazimir Kylheku <c2a...@ugrad.cs.ubc.ca> wrote:
ºIn article <HALLPAUL.95...@immpc18.marina.unit.no>,
ºHallvard Paulsen <hall...@immpc18.marina.unit.no> wrote:
º
º>I found that if I was ever going to finish my thesis, I had to
º>find a better "document processing system" (that is what WP calls its
º>versions 6.0+ in their advertising). I quickly found out that LaTeX
º>does what I want, and also is *much* more user friendly since it does
º
ºYup. Just look at the GNU C Library reference text. It's over 650
ºpages long! ...and it's all done using LaTeX. You should see the cool
ºindices it has for cross-referencing information in a variety of ways.
ºA friend of mine recently dumped that to a printer and had it nicely
ºbound. What a beauty...
No doubt that it is. :)
One has to keep in mind that the last _good_ version of WordPerfect for
Micro$oft based OSs was 5.1 for DOS. %1. - 6.0 for Windoze is a royal pain in
the butt, and crash like anything. Macro's in WP5.1 DOS were easy and
effective. Windoze WP are a pain in the butt and hard to learbn and edit. WP
screwed up when they moved to Windoze.
--
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The box...you opened it. We came. It's a means to summon us - Cenobites. |
| Explorers in the further regions of experience. Demons to some, angels to |
| others. ... No tears please. It's a waste of good suffering." - Pinhead |
| rrw...@netcom.com Richard R. Ward |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Brian Hurt
>No, Microsoft did not force PC vendors to install a copy of MS-DOS and
>Windoze on every computer the vendor sold. They simply forced PC
>vendors to _pay_Microsoft_ for every computer sold, whether it had
>Microsoft products on it or not. I don't know why the Justice
>Department didn't feel that they could prosecute this successfully.
>I'd like to have the clout that Microsoft has: to be able to tell
>government prosecutors: "We promise to stop doing what you think is
>illegal, and you agree to not bother us any more." That would be
>nice...
If you can find it, read the book "Big Blue" (not the more recent book
"Big Blues" (which is also a good book), but the earlier one, written
by one of the members of the DoJ team that tried to go after IBM).
This isn't the first time the computer has been strangled by a
monopoly. And, like last time, I don't think the solution is legal,
but technical. MS's big problem is it's inabbility to write decent
software. Imagine, if you will, Novell/DR (who did the best DOS ever,
by far, and now owns USL as well), Borland (for their languages and
various miscellany), and WordPerfect Corp. (for their word proccessor)
getting together and releasing their own OS. Basically do to MS what
EISA did to IBM- take the standards decisions away from the monopoly.
The problem is, Billy Boy knows what buisness wants- "No one ever got
fired for buying Microsoft" (How many of you know you're computer
history?). Buisness doesn't want the _good_ solution, buisness wants
the _safe_ solution. Which is why Linux will never be a major force
in the buisness world (despite the fact that it is better than anything
Microsoft has, or ever will, release).
>And the deal with Microsoft App developers having access to
>documentation for "undocumented" system calls that other developers
>lack. Something is wrong there...
No. Justly blantantly illegal, and buisness as usual. This is what you
get when you get a monoply. It's not fair. It never is. The only
chance for justice is Microsoft being _really_ stupid (current odds are
about 3:2 in your favor).
Where I work, we use MS-Windows 3.1. And several shrink-wrapped
applications. We are not a beta test site. We do not do development.
Our computers only crash two or three times daily on average. This
qualifies as "stable"?
nel...@physc3.byu.edu
> In article <dkuhlmanD...@netcom.com> dkuh...@netcom.com (G. David Kuhlman) writes:
>>
>>: licensing, they were selling a copy for most PC's that would end up running
>>: a non-MS OS as well...
>>
>>That makes me mad. That makes me real mad.
>>
>>How about this plan. Next time any of you buy a PC from a company that
>>bundles MS Windows and MS Windows apps with the computer, tell them
>>that you don't want the MS Windows stuff and you want $100 off
>>for not taking it. And if they won't agree, threaten to send a
>>letter to Judge Sporkin (the guy who rejected the MS/US Justice
>>dept agreement). And if they still don't agree, really send the
>>letter.
>>
>>OK. So maybe it would just be a therapy crank letter. But, then
>>again, it might do some good.
>>
>>--
> sending a letter to Hon. Judge Sporkin, but asking for a non-ms hd on
> my next machine. I've been looking and drooling at the 100 and the
> new 120 pentia in the trade rags recently. But what a waste of good
> hardware and disk space - comes with ms-dos 6.whatever and ms-windows
> 3.1.etc, plus all these wonderful cd-rom....and so on.
I don't know if any of those big-name retailers will actually do this, but
you can bet than when I get my next computer, my business will go to the
first guy who will leave out all the bundled software--and actually reduce
the price by the value of that software.
Any vendors listening?
Karl.
Eric Williams @ PCB x5577
BBBBBBBBAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRFFFFFFFF!!!!!!!!
Give me X anytime.
* * *
However, it might be a good business decision if only
Billy would detach the graphics user interface from the
underlying OS (in other words, we could do the same thing
X does -- run in Linux.
Oh, wait, doesn't Windoze do that already? :-) )
* * *
There is an issue regarding executables; is MS going to
build Linux execs, or Win32 execs that run under Linux?
(There is a difference; the first means that he recompiles
the executable; the second means that Linux must be able to
support (i.e., with Wine, perhaps?) the Win32 executable.)
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
eric_w...@mentorg.com
My views!
Thanks for letting me puke on your hard drive... :-)
Chris Waters
>dkuh...@netcom.com (G. David Kuhlman) writes:
>>How about this plan. Next time any of you buy a PC from a company that
>>bundles MS Windows and MS Windows apps with the computer, tell them
>>that you don't want the MS Windows stuff and you want $100 off
>>for not taking it.
>I expect most of them would be happy to oblige. Many would
>accidentally leave DOS/Windows loaded on the machine
[...]
>Of course, it's save you more far less than $100,
[...]
>I got $15 knocked off the price. (In my case, I already legally
>owned both products.)
Yes, but that was then, this is now. A lot of stores around here have
stopped bundling within the last month or two, and suddenly want pretty
close to $100 for the pair One ad carefully explained that the copy
you'd get anyway is intended for test purposes only, please. I wonder
if I should call some of them and mention that they CAN still offer a
free OS to all their customers. And that they could avoid those
embarrassing disclaimers if they used that OS for their tests! :)
Andrew C Bulhak
: The CIA guys don't wear black suits and walk up to peoples doors, now
: they just send a small death ray at you and <pooof> your gone! Never
: to be seen or read again ;)... Keep your head down.. They don't care
: what country your in.. or didn't you know that?
It's not the CIA. It's the Greys and the Pleiadians; the death rays are
fired from x-Soviet Jumbo Cosmospheres which are powered by gravity
generators from the secret Nazi UFO Program. Other than that, it is ALL TRUE.
UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of this
UN-altered Information is ENCOURAGED.
Ahmed
: : they just send a small death ray at you and <pooof> your gone! Never
: : to be seen or read again ;)... Keep your head down.. They don't care
: : what country your in.. or didn't you know that?
: It's not the CIA. It's the Greys and the Pleiadians; the death rays are
: fired from x-Soviet Jumbo Cosmospheres which are powered by gravity
: generators from the secret Nazi UFO Program. Other than that, it is ALL TRUE.
Geez, I've had enough of these childish conspiracy rantings. 'Nazi
UFO Program.' Why do you insist insulting my intelligence? I suppose
next you'll be mumbling about gnomes in Berne. Grow up. Live in the
real world. We know you're just trying to divert us from the Belgian
Mole Commandos.
--
He grudges Dawn its gracious light, | smr...@netcom.com PO Box 1563
the dance defying dark of night. | Cupertino, California
Her fleeting tread is flickerred red, | (xxx)xxx-xxxx 95015
and wakes the world to waxing bright. | Russkie-POW!
Vincent Vinh-Hung
about is Linux, of course.
That is a great idea, next time I'll ask the $15 rebate and request
they pre-load the PC with Linux :)
just a man
> >
> > It's not the CIA. It's the Greys and the Pleiadians; the death rays are
> > fired from x-Soviet Jumbo Cosmospheres which are powered by gravity
> > generators from the secret Nazi UFO Program. Other than that, it is
ALL TRUE.
>
>
>
>
> Peace,
>
> <> David
what does it have to do with it????!?@??@#
my God Dave... your missing the point of the exercise!!
In ancient hieroglyphics, they preached ufology under a Pretense of
"piracy and free software"!! If you were more familiar with the talmud
and less with the tv youd have caught on...
btw, what the fuk am i talking about?
Jeff X. Mink
Software by Ah...@netcom.com
> UFO Program.' Why do you insist insulting my intelligence? I suppose
> next you'll be mumbling about gnomes in Berne. Grow up. Live in the
> real world. We know you're just trying to divert us from the Belgian
> Mole Commandos.
I'm telling you, man, it's all a front for the International Communist
Penguin Conspiracy (thus the popularity of black suits and tuxedoes).
Mentally Yours,
Jeff Mink
Emperor of the Universe
Scourge of the Galaxy
High Priest of the Church of Harmonic Chaos
"Have fun, be creative, get arrested, piss people off."
(http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/usr/jmcg/home.html)
Alec Habig
>Geez, I've had enough of these childish conspiracy rantings. 'Nazi
>UFO Program.' Why do you insist insulting my intelligence? I suppose
>next you'll be mumbling about gnomes in Berne. Grow up. Live in the
>real world. We know you're just trying to divert us from the Belgian
>Mole Commandos.
Shh! You can't mumble about the Gnomes, that's loud enough that they'll
overhear you. Although they might continue to let you mumble about Berne, as
that misinformation could help them, since they're really in fnord.
--
Alec Habig, Indiana University High Energy Astrophysics
aha...@bigbang.astro.indiana.edu
http://astrowww.astro.indiana.edu/personnel/ahabig/
Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my guns.
Ahmed
the midst of political crisis. Belgian snotbacks are sneaking
north across the border into the Netherlands. And what happens
to a country with such intense internal discord?
They start a war with someone else.
Belgians have a long custom of burrowing underground. (Not
surprising considerring their place on the evolutionary ladder.)
Even now Belgian Mole Commandos have tunnelled under Lake
Whachamacallit and have come up under Redmond. They have already
pirated the Microsoft headquarters building and are sailing it
over Puget Sound with a rich booty of Windows96 beta floppies.
Who knows where it will end.
Geoffrey H Spear
>I'm telling you, man, it's all a front for the International Communist
>Penguin Conspiracy (thus the popularity of black suits and tuxedoes).
as official Net Representative of the Imperial Government of Antarctica,
i categorically deny rumors of a "penguin conspiracy" of any sort.
also, we're *not* developing nuclear penguins. really we're not.
have another day.
--
Geoff Spear |"And whenever rn sees your .signature
ghs...@pitt.edu | it'll rmgroup alt.slack as well! Yay!"
http://www.pitt.edu/~ghsst6/ | - Kibo
Jeroen Soree
>Geoffrey H Spear (ghs...@pitt.edu) wrote:
>: "Jeff X. Mink" <jm...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>: >I'm telling you, man, it's all a front for the International Communist
>: >Penguin Conspiracy (thus the popularity of black suits and tuxedoes).
>
>: as official Net Representative of the Imperial Government of Antarctica,
>: i categorically deny rumors of a "penguin conspiracy" of any sort.
>: also, we're *not* developing nuclear penguins. really we're not.
>
I agree, that would be the same as an icebear in the Sahara !
Later,
JeSo :-)
>
>--Newob Det
>High Priest of the Cult of the Dishwasher
>Everything you know is false. Except for the true things.
>Hail Eris. fnord.
Jeroen Soree
>ebo...@Phoenix.kent.edu (Ted Bowen) wrote:
>>Geoffrey H Spear (ghs...@pitt.edu) wrote:
>>: "Jeff X. Mink" <jm...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>>: >I'm telling you, man, it's all a front for the International Communist
>>: >Penguin Conspiracy (thus the popularity of black suits and tuxedoes).
>>
>>: as official Net Representative of the Imperial Government of Antarctica,
>>: i categorically deny rumors of a "penguin conspiracy" of any sort.
>>: also, we're *not* developing nuclear penguins. really we're not.
>>
>>Wait a minute! a PENGUIN in ANTARCTICA!?!
>I agree, that would be the same as an icebear in the Sahara !
>Later,
>
>JeSo :-)
Last post was a joke as you might had noticed !
There ARE penguins in Antartica.
(Though I know some jokes about icebears in the Sahara, but
those will be posted in rec.humor, eunet.jokes & alt.jokes !)
Even later,
Jeff X. Mink
Software by Ted Bo...@Phoenix.kent.e
What did you think, that penguins hang out in Maui?
Chuck Fletcher
--
Chuck Fletcher chu...@interaccess.com
=============================================
| L i f e , I t ' s A l l I c i n g ! |
=============================================
Ted Bowen
: "Jeff X. Mink" <jm...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
: >I'm telling you, man, it's all a front for the International Communist
: >Penguin Conspiracy (thus the popularity of black suits and tuxedoes).
: as official Net Representative of the Imperial Government of Antarctica,
: i categorically deny rumors of a "penguin conspiracy" of any sort.
: also, we're *not* developing nuclear penguins. really we're not.
Wait a minute! a PENGUIN in ANTARCTICA!?!
--Newob Det
Dan Pop
>I've asked several times for help reguarding the geometry of X windows and
>how to make applications start so I wouldn't have to resize or move EVERY
>single window EVERY time I started an app. I received no response, so
>I'm assuming that you can't do it.
How about typing "man X" and reading the output? There is a section
titled "GEOMETRY SPECIFICATIONS".
>
>How is someone who is only interested in being productive on a computer
>system without having to study the intricacies of an operating system and
>having to recompile the kernel, modules, applications, etc. suppose to
>be productive with Linux?
>
Right. Linux is not for clueless people like you, who can't be bothered
to even read a man page. People like you made Bill Gates the richest guy
in the US.
Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email: dan...@afsmail.cern.ch
Mail: CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland
Orc
James Barwick <jbar...@free.org> wrote:
[X woes deleted]
>If you are a hobbiest, or setting up TCP/IP servers or gateways, Linux
>would work. If you are a professional, Linux CAN'T work for you.
A professional _what_?
It's probably not unreasonable to expect a computer person to
eventually figure out X, but unless they are also a hacker, I'd
not expect a professional CPA to have the same success.
X suffers severely from sysadmins disease -- it seems to assume
that you will have a System Administrator hovering in the
background, magically configuring your workstations so that they
work properly so that you'll never have to do it. But that's really
the worst part about Linux -- if you're running a standalone system,
most of the other packages can be pointed at your disk and let loose
with minimal intervention, and then your system will be happy until
you get the upgrade bug and systematically turn your previously
happy computer into a small pile of gently steaming debris.
____
david parsons \bi/ To do list: build an autoconfigure for X.
\/
James Barwick
>|> Yes, but that was then, this is now. A lot of stores around here have
>|> stopped bundling within the last month or two, and suddenly want pretty
>|> close to $100 for the pair One ad carefully explained that the copy
>|> you'd get anyway is intended for test purposes only, please. I wonder
>|> if I should call some of them and mention that they CAN still offer a
>|> free OS to all their customers. And that they could avoid those
>|> embarrassing disclaimers if they used that OS for their tests! :)
>I had to read 3 times before grasping that the free OS you're talking
>about is Linux, of course.
>That is a great idea, next time I'll ask the $15 rebate and request
>they pre-load the PC with Linux :)
>
Yes, I like it...BUT...I am still not productive with it.
X still doesn't work properly on my PC (I don't have the time or the
knowhow to add all the necessary options to the .startx files or the
.Xconfig files or whatever to make the menus, programs, and windows work
to a point where I could be productive. Second, the clients that I work
with have requirements of compatibility with spreadsheets and wordprocessors
that Linux just cannot support.
If you are a hobbiest, or setting up TCP/IP servers or gateways, Linux
would work. If you are a professional, Linux CAN'T work for you.
I've asked several times for help reguarding the geometry of X windows and
how to make applications start so I wouldn't have to resize or move EVERY
single window EVERY time I started an app. I received no response, so
I'm assuming that you can't do it.
How is someone who is only interested in being productive on a computer
Joe Sloan
>Yes, I like it...BUT...I am still not productive with it.
than I could ever dream of being in dos/windoze -
>X still doesn't work properly on my PC (I don't have the time or the
>knowhow to add all the necessary options to the .startx files or the
>.Xconfig files or whatever to make the menus, programs, and windows work
>to a point where I could be productive.
sounds like you need to spend a few minutes with the man pages -
perhaps the O'Reilly books would be helpful as well.
> Second, the clients that I work
>with have requirements of compatibility with spreadsheets and wordprocessors
>that Linux just cannot support.
It is true that there is a lot of dos/windoze apps out there...
As to what linux can or can't support, that is changing very rapidly.
I have been running borland turbo c++ on a remote linux machine via X,
simply because I needed to write some dos code, but didn't want to
take down incoming email and remote logins; I am happy to report that
it works well.
>If you are a hobbiest, or setting up TCP/IP servers or gateways, Linux
>would work. If you are a professional, Linux CAN'T work for you.
I am a professional.
Linux WORKS for me.
I know this much, if someone tried to take away my UNIX box and tell me
to try and get by with dos/windoze, I'd scream bloody murder...
/jjs
--
j...@wintermute.ucr.edu | We are using Linux daily
A linux machine! because a 486 | to UP our productivity -
is a terrible thing to waste! | - so UP yours!
Ahmed
: What did you think, that penguins hang out in Maui?
Be careful what you say about penguins. To you or me, perhaps, it may
seem unnatural, but you have to remember those british soldiers had
been away from home a long time, and there aren't that many women in
the Falkland Islands. Besides, the sheep were occupied by Argentians.
Darin Johnson
> with have requirements of compatibility with spreadsheets and wordprocessors
> that Linux just cannot support.
Clients that *you* work with.
> If you are a hobbiest, or setting up TCP/IP servers or gateways, Linux
> would work. If you are a professional, Linux CAN'T work for you.
Um, just because *you* can't do your work with it is irrelevant.
Many people can be productive with Linux. I could use the same
incredibly obtuse logic and say the Windows CAN'T work for you
because I cannot get my work done using it. And I consider
myself a professional.
Please please please understand this, it will make things oh so
much nicer everywhere in your life: people are not identical.
Even though Windows is beyond useless for what I do currently,
I don't go around telling people that it is useless for everything
(there are enough people willing to do so).
> I've asked several times for help reguarding the geometry of X windows and
> how to make applications start so I wouldn't have to resize or move EVERY
> single window EVERY time I started an app. I received no response, so
> I'm assuming that you can't do it.
You can get a session manager to do this, or you can have fvwm dump
this info so you can save it in your .xinitrc file (if you have fvwm).
Some session managers can be found on sunsite under X11/xutils/managers.
Else, add the lines yourself to .xinitrc. "man X" should give you
info on geometries, but basically,
"xterm -geometry 80x20+494-0" starts an xterm of 80x20 characters
at row 494, and the last column. To get the current geometry
of a window, you can use the "xwininfo" command; thus you can
do this for all of your windows after you've got them set up,
and shove the appropriate startup information in your .xinitrc.
> How is someone who is only interested in being productive on a computer
> system without having to study the intricacies of an operating system and
> having to recompile the kernel, modules, applications, etc. suppose to
> be productive with Linux?
Well, here's my advice. Rather than get an ulcer or lose a lot of
hair - just don't use Linux. It's very simple. All systems will
require learning intricacies to get maximum use out of them (if you
think windows was straight forward, either you forgot about all the
little things you had to learn, or you still have lots to learn).
--
Darin Johnson
djoh...@ucsd.edu
Where am I? In the village... What do you want? Information...
rodney d slone
>In <3n4ahf$v...@grover.mindspring.com> jbar...@free.org (James Barwick) writes:
>>I've asked several times for help reguarding the geometry of X windows and
>>how to make applications start so I wouldn't have to resize or move EVERY
>>single window EVERY time I started an app. I received no response, so
>>I'm assuming that you can't do it.
>How about typing "man X" and reading the output? There is a section
>titled "GEOMETRY SPECIFICATIONS".
Dan, what if he doesnt have the man page for X for some odd reason?
>>
>>How is someone who is only interested in being productive on a computer
>>system without having to study the intricacies of an operating system and
>>having to recompile the kernel, modules, applications, etc. suppose to
>>be productive with Linux?
>>
Linux is not guaranteed to be the perfect OS for everyone. If you like
it and use it then it is wonderful. If you dont, then you dont. Oh well..
>Right. Linux is not for clueless people like you, who can't be bothered
>to even read a man page. People like you made Bill Gates the richest guy
>in the US.
Actually, Dan, I think that maybe you were too harsh on him. I also get
aggravated with people I consider to be computer illiterate, but just bashing
him will not help. There is still a lot of people out there that literally
are scared of turning a computer on. I think that we are a small subset of
the population. Am I totally off base?
--
Rodney Daryl Slone | There is a trick to being a proficient
Electrical Engineering Junior | Electrical Engineer. It begins with the
University of Kentucky | recognition that electrical components are
e-mail: rdsl...@mik.uky.edu | driven, not by electricity, but smoke. The
Andrew C Bulhak
: Geoffrey H Spear (ghs...@pitt.edu) wrote:
: : "Jeff X. Mink" <jm...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
: : >I'm telling you, man, it's all a front for the International Communist
: : >Penguin Conspiracy (thus the popularity of black suits and tuxedoes).
: : as official Net Representative of the Imperial Government of Antarctica,
: : i categorically deny rumors of a "penguin conspiracy" of any sort.
: : also, we're *not* developing nuclear penguins. really we're not.
: Wait a minute! a PENGUIN in ANTARCTICA!?!
A tiger? In Africa?
--
Andrew Bulhak "As far as I'm concerned, if it jiggles, gibbers or
a...@cs.monash.edu.au will answer if I ask it how to get to Yuggoth, then
http://www.cs.monash I'll call it "Cthulhoid", and then call myself a
.edu.au/~acb/ cab!" -Darren Sullivan <spee...@ix.netcom.com>
Jared Roberts
been going practically non-stop setting the thing up. The kernel it arrived
with didn't have my cdrom supported. The kernel I downloaded didn't have CSLIP
supported. So I had to recomplie a new kernel. X wouldn't go, because XFree
3.1 doesn't have an easy setup option for mach64 cards... man pages didn't help
me find the dot clicks of my monitor any... All my documentation here was
pretty much useless, as it assumed I'd be using the supplied windows drivers.
After downloading 3.1.1, that finally worked. But I've also had trouble
compiling a good deal of my applications (eventually got every one of them
tho), had some TCP/IP routing problems (Dynamic CSLIP!!!). All these problems
that I've never had with windows or DOS. Now, I got through it all, but I
could never accuse anyone who couldn't as being stupid or illiterate. Now that
it's done, I can see how Linux offers advantages in Networking and such, but I
would never suggest to anyone that Linux and Xwindows was the right solution
for an office where Word Processing was the most important goal. Linux works
great for me (I got what I wanted originally --- the ability to have root
access so I could run SATAN ;) And I'm all happy and that, but you must admit,
man pages still aren't going to help the novice user. A novice user only knows
that "it doesn't work". Even if they know what the problem is (in one of my
cases, 127.0.0.1 didn't point to my localhost, this meant SATAN wouldn't work
-- remember I have dynamic IP). They would never think to type "man route",
"man ifconfig", or whatever it was that I did to fix it....
Just my $.005
Ja...@Cyberspace.com
Dan Pop
>In <danpop.798396315@rscernix> dan...@afsmail.cern.ch (Dan Pop) writes:
>
>>In <3n4ahf$v...@grover.mindspring.com> jbar...@free.org (James Barwick) writes:
>
>>>I've asked several times for help reguarding the geometry of X windows and
>>>how to make applications start so I wouldn't have to resize or move EVERY
>>>single window EVERY time I started an app. I received no response, so
>>>I'm assuming that you can't do it.
>
>>How about typing "man X" and reading the output? There is a section
>>titled "GEOMETRY SPECIFICATIONS".
>
>Dan, what if he doesnt have the man page for X for some odd reason?
The man pages for Linux and XFree are free and they come with every Linux
distribution. If he doesn't have it, he has to install it, that's all.
I'm willing to bet that he has the man page for X, however.
>
>>>
>>>How is someone who is only interested in being productive on a computer
>>>system without having to study the intricacies of an operating system and
>>>having to recompile the kernel, modules, applications, etc. suppose to
>>>be productive with Linux?
>>>
>
>Linux is not guaranteed to be the perfect OS for everyone. If you like
>it and use it then it is wonderful. If you dont, then you dont. Oh well..
>
>>Right. Linux is not for clueless people like you, who can't be bothered
>>to even read a man page. People like you made Bill Gates the richest guy
>>in the US.
>
>Actually, Dan, I think that maybe you were too harsh on him. I also get
You can never be too harsh on someone who can't read a man page :-)
>aggravated with people I consider to be computer illiterate, but just bashing
>him will not help. There is still a lot of people out there that literally
>are scared of turning a computer on. I think that we are a small subset of
>the population. Am I totally off base?
Right. But my point was that Linux is not for this kind of people.
Am I totally off base?
Dan
Darin Johnson
> >titled "GEOMETRY SPECIFICATIONS".
>
> Dan, what if he doesnt have the man page for X for some odd reason?
Sort of like not having the manual for DOS or Windows, and having
to figure out something obscure there. Ie, if you don't have the
manual, get one. Manuals and man pages are not optional items.
--
Darin Johnson
djoh...@ucsd.edu
"Here was a man who knew what to do with 2000 pounds of ammonium
nitrate, fuel oil, a 64 K-processor CM5 and a few blasting caps."
Kazimir Kylheku
Darin Johnson <djoh...@tartarus.ucsd.edu> wrote:
>> >How about typing "man X" and reading the output? There is a section
>> >titled "GEOMETRY SPECIFICATIONS".
>>
>> Dan, what if he doesnt have the man page for X for some odd reason?
>
>Sort of like not having the manual for DOS or Windows, and having
>to figure out something obscure there. Ie, if you don't have the
>manual, get one. Manuals and man pages are not optional items.
That's a very good point Darin.
Some people have this attitude that they are "exploring the computer"
and therefore can "throw away the manual". The trouble is that you
aren't exploring some new continent or discovering a new chemical
compound. You are moping about in something that someone else invented
and documented, and that others have used before you. The sense of
discovery is an illusion.
Bottom line: if you want to hack, start guessing and learning stuff
you aren't supposed to know; RTFM for everything else! Believe me, it
saves a lot of time, no matter how intuitive you think your system is.
Kessing / Kenan Allan (COM)
anon
Dr. Alex
a...@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au (Andrew C Bulhak) wrote:
>: : as official Net Representative of the Imperial Government of Antarctica,
>: : i categorically deny rumors of a "penguin conspiracy" of any sort.
>: : also, we're *not* developing nuclear penguins. really we're not.
>
>: Wait a minute! a PENGUIN in ANTARCTICA!?!
>
>A tiger? In Africa?
>
cheers, Alex. aka I don't understand aka (or any other language)
------------------------------------------------------------------
Alex C. Le Dain ale...@receptor.pharm.uwa.edu.au
This is a poor attempt at a sig.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Colin Plumb
Jeff Dege <jd...@winternet.com> wrote:
>On 3 Apr 1995 20:07:50 -0400, Bill McCarthy (bmcc...@gulfaero.com) declaimed:
>
>: I mean, has anyone done this? Call the folks at Dell, Micron, et. al.
>: and tell 'em to ship the fatest box they got...uh, btw, don't bother
>: installing the software - how about a credit? he he. Seriously, though.
>: My next machine is going to be sans dos/windows. I really haven't heard
>: of anyone ordering this way.
I've done it. Not mail-order; I just found a cheap hole-in-the-wall
PC reseller on Dundas St. (a street in Toronto with quite a few
small computer stores) and asked. No DOS, $50 off.
In that case, it was a replacement for an ancient 8088 machine that
was being junked, so I also skipped the monitor, since the old one
already had a VGA monitor. But I didn't need another license, and
it was no hassle.
Now, it turned out that DOS was already installed on the drive,
which ended up saving me a bit of setup time, but I got the credit.
--
-Colin
Stephen Harris
: I have been running borland turbo c++ on a remote linux machine via X,
: simply because I needed to write some dos code, but didn't want to
: take down incoming email and remote logins; I am happy to report that
: it works well.
:-) Last week I was in Greece and needed to write some DOS assembler. The
only assembler I had was back in England on my PC. So I dialed into it
(running Linux :-), ran the DOSemulator, and then used tasm to compile my
code. Worked fine.
--
Stephen Harris
sw...@spuddy.mew.co.uk sw...@spuddy.uucp Spuddy Admin
The truth is the truth, and opinion just opinion. But what is what?
* Meeeeow ! Call Spud the Cat on > 01268 515441 < for free Usenet access *
Keith Smith
James Barwick <jbar...@free.org> wrote:
>I'm sorry, Linux is STILL not a viable operating system. Yes it's good!
>Yes, I like it...BUT...I am still not productive with it.
Viability and your productivity are not corallary.
Linux is quite viable, it works wonderfully.
>X still doesn't work properly on my PC (I don't have the time or the
>knowhow to add all the necessary options to the .startx files or the
>.Xconfig files or whatever to make the menus, programs, and windows work
>to a point where I could be productive.
I can honestly say exactly the same thing about ms-windows. Nor do I know
how to delete the crap for a soundcard that is no longer on the machine.
So you don't know X and I don't know MS-WIN.
>Second, the clients that I work
>with have requirements of compatibility with spreadsheets and wordprocessors
>that Linux just cannot support.
I just played with DOSEMU. Unbeleivable, it works.
>If you are a hobbiest, or setting up TCP/IP servers or gateways, Linux
>would work. If you are a professional, Linux CAN'T work for you.
Professional what? I have linux installed in some satellite offices
running SCO applications right out of the box, including custom database
using BASIS BBx Progression/4, and Uniplex Office Automation.
>I've asked several times for help reguarding the geometry of X windows and
>how to make applications start so I wouldn't have to resize or move EVERY
>single window EVERY time I started an app. I received no response, so
>I'm assuming that you can't do it.
It's in the xinit for your window manager. U run startx it kicks up the
shell script for your chosen window manager. Usually:
/usr/X386/lib/X11/xinit/: xinitrc xserverrc
As for spec'ing geometries read the X man page. It's long but clear.
>How is someone who is only interested in being productive on a computer
>system without having to study the intricacies of an operating system and
>having to recompile the kernel, modules, applications, etc. suppose to
>be productive with Linux?
Set it up and leave it alone.
I have a machine running a satellite news feed and C-news. Works great,
the 3 offices with custom BBx apps running Linux work great too.
--
Keith Smith <ke...@ksmith.com> Free Usenet News/Newsfeeds
Digital Designs (910) 423-4216/7389/7391
PO Box 85 V.34/V.34/V.32
Hope Mills, NC 28348-0085 ... Somewhere in the Styx of North Carolina ...
Captain Chaos <KSC>
: Excerpts from netnews.alt.discordia: 20-Apr-95 Re: Piracy & Free
: Software by Ted Bo...@Phoenix.kent.e
: What did you think, that penguins hang out in Maui?
: Mentally Yours,
:
: Jeff Mink
: Emperor of the Universe
: Scourge of the Galaxy
: High Priest of the Church of Harmonic Chaos
:
: "Have fun, be creative, get arrested, piss people off."
: (http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/usr/jmcg/home.html)
Actually, penguins were indigeneous to Australia before it sank in
the wake of the great cataclysm not long after being visited by
Malaclypse the Elder in the year 22 au--funny that penguin being over
there--!@#$ it's got a gun!
^^^
Episkopos -=Captain Chaos=-, KSC, Pope;
Founder of The Polymorphic Lumberjack's of Bavaria Cabal,
Keeper of the Sacred Fnord-olating Doomsday Device,
and Grand Prognosticator to
The Lower Left Corner of the Universe
Maelstrom 23
previous posts have to do with Piracy and Free software. As far as I can
tell penguins do not even own computers, or borrow their friends computers.
'nuff said.
____________________________________________________________________________
| Maelstrom 23 The Inconcievable and Efficacious, Most High Priest |
| Yow! of our Lord, the Lady Eris. IAO Pan Pan mighty Noid |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Hail Eris 23 skidoo! Hail Discordia |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
head
>
>Ted Bowen (ebo...@Phoenix.kent.edu) wrote:
>: Geoffrey H Spear (ghs...@pitt.edu) wrote:
>: : "Jeff X. Mink" <jm...@andrew.cmu.edu> wrote:
>: : >I'm telling you, man, it's all a front for the International Communist
>: : >Penguin Conspiracy (thus the popularity of black suits and tuxedoes).
>
>: : i categorically deny rumors of a "penguin conspiracy" of any sort.
>: : also, we're *not* developing nuclear penguins. really we're not.
>
>
>
A kangarro? In Australia?
... Sir Head aka Australia! Australia! Australia! we love you AMEN!
Larry Hastings
|In article <3n8fee$h...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au>,
|a...@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au (Andrew C Bulhak) says:
|>Ted Bowen (ebo...@Phoenix.kent.edu) wrote:
|>: Geoffrey H Spear (ghs...@pitt.edu) wrote:
|>: : also, we're *not* developing nuclear penguins. really we're not.
|>: Wait a minute! a PENGUIN in ANTARCTICA!?!
|>A tiger? In Africa?
|A kangarro? In Australia?
Cows? In Berkeley? MoooOooOooOoOoooo....
--
larry hastings, the galactic funkster, funk...@hyperion.com
"...for it is HAM that I seek! HAM! HAM! HAAAAM!!!" --MST3k
<a href="http://www.hyperion.com/~funkster">My WWW homepage</a>
Newob Det
: In article <3n8fee$h...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au>,
: a...@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au (Andrew C Bulhak) says:
: >
: >Ted Bowen (ebo...@Phoenix.kent.edu) wrote:
: >: Wait a minute! a PENGUIN in ANTARCTICA!?!
: >
: >A tiger? In Africa?
: >
: A kangarro? In Australia?
^^^^^^^^
You misspelled "Wallabee." I hope this helps. On second thought, no,
I don't.
--Newob Det
"I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK, I sleep all night and I work all day."
Nathan Hand
: I'm sorry, Linux is STILL not a viable operating system. Yes it's good!
: Yes, I like it...BUT...I am still not productive with it.
Lets follow the logic here.
1) James isnt productive with linux
2) Therefore linux is not a viable operating system
Well James, can you see the fault? Any assumptions you've made?
: If you are a hobbiest, or setting up TCP/IP servers or gateways, Linux
: would work. If you are a professional, Linux CAN'T work for you.
What if you professionally setup TCP/IP servers or gateways?
Im sorry, it may not be useful for you, but this does not mean
its not useful for everyone.
: I've asked several times for help reguarding the geometry of X windows and
: how to make applications start so I wouldn't have to resize or move EVERY
: single window EVERY time I started an app. I received no response, so
: I'm assuming that you can't do it.
Bollocks. Heres an extract from my ~/.Xdefaults file
xdvi*Geometry: 800x700+0+0
xdvi*shrinkFactor: 3
xdvi*expert: true
xdvi*keepPosition: true
xdvi*noghostscript: false
xdvi*nopostscript: false
Look at the first line please.
: How is someone who is only interested in being productive on a computer
: system without having to study the intricacies of an operating system and
: having to recompile the kernel, modules, applications, etc. suppose to
: be productive with Linux?
*shrug* Thats unix. If you dont want to get your hands dirty
then use a Macintosh.
Unix may be more difficult to learn but the rewards are much
greater. It's harder to walk than crawl but most of us learn
to walk.
--
When I use a word it means just what I choose it +------------------
to mean - neither more nor less +----------------+ ... logic is only
--------------------------------+ a way of being ignorant by numbers
Ahmed
: I've been reading this thread and I still can't discern what any of the
: tell penguins do not even own computers, or borrow their friends computers.
We are not responsible for your education.
It is rumoured that the Empire of Antarctica was unable slip past the
nuclear nonpoliferation treaty and so they have but their energies
into the logical bomb.
Agent Opus recently returned to the Empire after a successful penetration
of Banana Computer Corporation's Outland Research Campus at One Insanity
Loop in Cupertino, California. He was aided by a boy whose identity
is being withheld because of his youth.
It has also been rumourred the Megahard Corporation was bugged and
valuable software stolen. The bug was a crossdressing cockroach known
by the initials JLB.
The Clinton Adminstration has been reluctant to make this information
public. It seems Penguin Fellow-traveller, Bill the Cat, had compromising
photographs of a Clinton family member.
--
Then homeward wends the hostage wife | smr...@netcom.com PO Box 1563
to lightless halls, to lurking life | Cupertino, California
a haunted bride by husband's side, | (xxx)xxx-xxxx 95015
by clan betrayed to cleanse the strife. | intolerance kills
head
>
>head (c942...@cc.newcastle.edu.au) wrote:
>: In article <3n8fee$h...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au>,
>: a...@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au (Andrew C Bulhak) says:
>: >
>: >Ted Bowen (ebo...@Phoenix.kent.edu) wrote:
>
>: >: Wait a minute! a PENGUIN in ANTARCTICA!?!
>: >
>: >A tiger? In Africa?
>: >
>: A kangarro? In Australia?
> ^^^^^^^^
>You misspelled "Wallabee." I hope this helps. On second thought, no,
>I don't.
>
... Sir Head aka now go away or I'll taunt you again!
Plushboy
>>: >: Wait a minute! a PENGUIN in ANTARCTICA!?!
>>: >
>>: >A tiger? In Africa?
>>: >
>>: A kangarro? In Australia?
>> ^^^^^^^^
>>You misspelled "Wallabee." I hope this helps. On second thought, no,
>>I don't.
>>
>I didn't mispell it, that "r" is actually an "o" disguised as an "r"
A vowel cross-dressing as a consonant? How scandalous!
> ... Sir Head aka now go away or I'll taunt you again!
^^^^^
You misspelled "Fnord." Hope this annoys!
-Plushboy
---------------------------------------------------
AKA Plush Dragon --=(UDIC)=--
"Jolt Cola, It's not just for breakfast anymore."
*Plushboy is not in any way associated with people
who put disclaimers in their .sig files.*
---------------------------------------------------