Penguin Pete Debunks "Ease of Use" in GNU/Linux Myths
Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
Hey, Where Are All The Clueless Newbs Who Can't Use A Phone?
,----[ Quote ]
| Everybody's too embarrassed to admit that they don't know how to use
| a phone, so they MAKE SURE THEY KNOW HOW TO USE A PHONE. Being
| computer illiterate, however, is trendy and fashionable. It's
| considered cute in our society to giggle tee-hee-hee, "I'm a
| computer-dummy!" But to be a phone dummy? Now you're ostracized
| from society, handicapped, crippled, can't even get a job or a date!
`----
http://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.php?title=hey_where_are_all_the_clueless_newbs_who&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1
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Homer
>
> http://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.php?title=hey_where_are_all_the_clueless_newbs_who&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1
Is that the same Penguin Pete who launched a vicious attack on Ken
Starks (of the HeliOS project that donates computers to kids), accusing
him of being a fraud, and attacking Linux advocacy in general?
http://www.thenixedreport.com/articles/tholbrook2/penguinpete.html
http://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.php?title=why_i_am_not_a_linux_advocate
I don't think his sort of "advocacy" is especially useful, frankly.
Meanwhile, if Ken really is a "scam artist" as "Penguin" claims, he must
be the most impoverished one I've ever heard of, since he can't even
afford to pay for a life-saving operation on his partner Diane, after
she suffered a stroke:
http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2011/06/when-minor-and-devestating-are-used-in.html
--
K. | "The poor have flat-screen TVs."
http://slated.org | ~ Libertarian propagandist Keith
Fedora 8 (Werewolf) on šky | Curtis, explaining why he thinks
kernel 2.6.31.5, up 32 days | we shouldn't tax the rich.
Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Homer on Friday 24 Jun 2011 17:10 : \____
> Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
>>
>> http://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.php?title=hey_where_are_all_the_clueless_newbs_who&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1
>
> Is that the same Penguin Pete who launched a vicious attack on Ken
> Starks (of the HeliOS project that donates computers to kids), accusing
> him of being a fraud, and attacking Linux advocacy in general?
>
> http://www.thenixedreport.com/articles/tholbrook2/penguinpete.html
> http://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.php?title=why_i_am_not_a_linux_advocate
>
> I don't think his sort of "advocacy" is especially useful, frankly.
>
> Meanwhile, if Ken really is a "scam artist" as "Penguin" claims, he must
> be the most impoverished one I've ever heard of, since he can't even
> afford to pay for a life-saving operation on his partner Diane, after
> she suffered a stroke:
>
> http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2011/06/when-minor-and-devestating-are-used-in.html
I denounced "Penguin" Pete at the time. Many people did. He did nothing like this since...
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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JeffM
>>Is that the same Penguin Pete
>>
Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>He did nothing like this since
>
Among my favorite HeliOS stories are the time
he caught flack from all directions after blasting the teacher
who thought that anything without a price tag wasn't legit.
...then there was the time that the Windoze support guy
blamed Ken and his ilk for taking away work from his sort.
Grabbing Ken (US Army retired) by his ponytail
was a BIG mistake.
Homer
> Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>> Homer wrote:
>>>
>>> Is that the same Penguin Pete who launched a vicious attack on Ken
>>> Starks ?
>>
AFAIAC he's got a permanent black mark against his name for that. It's
not just that he attacked Ken without any proof or provocation, it's the
fact that he attacked someone so dedicated to an altruistic cause.
> Well, that's good at least.
>
> Among my favorite HeliOS stories are the time he caught flack from all
> directions after blasting the teacher who thought that anything
> without a price tag wasn't legit.
It was more than that. She exposed herself as an anti-Linux and
pro-Microsoft fanatic, after initially feigning ignorance, but then
admitting she'd already heard of and used Linux at college, and ranting
about it being a "Windows world".
> ...then there was the time that the Windoze support guy blamed Ken and
> his ilk for taking away work from his sort. Grabbing Ken (US Army
> retired) by his ponytail was a BIG mistake.
I missed that one. Got a link?
Snit
> Verily I say unto thee, that JeffM spake thusly:
>> Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>> Homer wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Is that the same Penguin Pete who launched a vicious attack on Ken
>>>> Starks ?
>>>
>>> He did nothing like this since
>
> AFAIAC he's got a permanent black mark against his name for that. It's
> not just that he attacked Ken without any proof or provocation, it's the
> fact that he attacked someone so dedicated to an altruistic cause.
As you attack Schwartz for his altruistic cause. Interesting how you vilify
yourself.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Homer on Friday 24 Jun 2011 21:14 : \____
> Verily I say unto thee, that JeffM spake thusly:
>> Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>> Homer wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Is that the same Penguin Pete who launched a vicious attack on Ken
>>>> Starks ?
>>>
>>> He did nothing like this since
>
> AFAIAC he's got a permanent black mark against his name for that. It's
> not just that he attacked Ken without any proof or provocation, it's the
> fact that he attacked someone so dedicated to an altruistic cause.
Ken later won at least one award for his work (in the state of Texas). I think
the stereotype of Texans had some bloggers who never met him overly presumptuous.
I cannot think of Pete ever doing something so degrading apart from that (and
I insulted him for this at the time). Later on he supported me, just as Ken had done
for many years and named me as inspiration in his LXer interview.
>> Well, that's good at least.
>>
>> Among my favorite HeliOS stories are the time he caught flack from all
>> directions after blasting the teacher who thought that anything
>> without a price tag wasn't legit.
>
> It was more than that. She exposed herself as an anti-Linux and
> pro-Microsoft fanatic, after initially feigning ignorance, but then
> admitting she'd already heard of and used Linux at college, and ranting
> about it being a "Windows world".
Do you know the controversy in Texan schools regarding theism and indoctrination? It's
truly scary. It's like Saudi Arabia, the Western flavour. Google it...
Short story is, the religious lobby totally hijacked the panels and evolution
is like a dirty word there. Some go along with the "world is 6000 years old" myths...
in publicly funded schools. So the Linux phobia is the least of their troubles.
>> ...then there was the time that the Windoze support guy blamed Ken and
>> his ilk for taking away work from his sort. Grabbing Ken (US Army
>> retired) by his ponytail was a BIG mistake.
>
> I missed that one. Got a link?
Is that about the bullies from the parking lot? Those whose business he
was 'stealing' by giving kids access to Free software?
Ken is many people's hero.
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Homer
> ____/ Homer on Friday 24 Jun 2011 21:14 : \____
> I cannot think of Pete ever doing something so degrading apart from
> that (and I insulted him for this at the time). Later on he supported
> me, just as Ken had done for many years and named me as inspiration in
> his LXer interview.
I'll take your word for it, but AFAIAC Mr. "Penguin" has about as much
chance of working his way back into my favour as Miguel "MVP" de Icaza
or that thug David "Dildo" Schlesinger. My instincts tell me he's just
bad people, and my instincts about such things are rarely wrong.
JeffM
>>the time that the Windoze support guy
>>blamed Ken and his ilk for taking away work from his sort.
>>Grabbing Ken (US Army retired) by his ponytail
>>was a BIG mistake.
>>
>I missed that one. Got a link?
>
http://tinyurl.com/KenStarks-vs-WindozeSupportGuy
http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2009/03/tempers-flare-as-recession-creeps-into.html
Homer
>> JeffM wrote:
>>> the time that the Windoze support guy blamed Ken and his ilk for
>>> taking away work from his sort. Grabbing Ken (US Army retired) by
>>> his ponytail was a BIG mistake.
>>
>> I missed that one. Got a link?
>
> http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2009/03/tempers-flare-as-recession-creeps-into.html
Ah yes, I remember now.
The most appalling thing about this incident is that the goons concerned
attacked a /charity/ that /gives/ computers away to the /poor/. How
exactly that is supposed to adversely affect these goon's incomes, I
have no idea. Frankly it seems more like a bigoted response to Linux.
But we've all seen the type before. COLA's riddled with them.
Hadron
It figures you would believe that nonsense. It gives Rasker a run for
his money.
Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Homer on Saturday 25 Jun 2011 01:51 : \____
> Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
>> ____/ Homer on Friday 24 Jun 2011 21:14 : \____
>
>> I cannot think of Pete ever doing something so degrading apart from
>> that (and I insulted him for this at the time). Later on he supported
>> me, just as Ken had done for many years and named me as inspiration in
>> his LXer interview.
>
> I'll take your word for it, but AFAIAC Mr. "Penguin" has about as much
> chance of working his way back into my favour as Miguel "MVP" de Icaza
> or that thug David "Dildo" Schlesinger. My instincts tell me he's just
> bad people, and my instincts about such things are rarely wrong.
He is actually against them, and he supported me in 2009 when those bullies
were attacking me constantly, along with Microsoft employees (like TEs). Mono
advocacy seems dead by now, ACCESS is much smaller, and David "Dildo" Schlesinger
got laid off. He's no longer involved in FOSS in any way AFAICT. Maybe "stealth mode"
dildo business, who knows...
Speaking of layoffs, Miguel too got made redundant (or as Soviety Microsoft calls it,
got made a "useful idiot").
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Homer on Saturday 25 Jun 2011 03:36 : \____
> Verily I say unto thee, that JeffM spake thusly:
>> Homer wrote:
>>> JeffM wrote:
>
>>>> the time that the Windoze support guy blamed Ken and his ilk for
>>>> taking away work from his sort. Grabbing Ken (US Army retired) by
>>>> his ponytail was a BIG mistake.
>>>
>>> I missed that one. Got a link?
>>
>> http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2009/03/tempers-flare-as-recession-creeps-into.html
>
> Ah yes, I remember now.
>
> The most appalling thing about this incident is that the goons concerned
> attacked a /charity/ that /gives/ computers away to the /poor/. How
> exactly that is supposed to adversely affect these goon's incomes, I
> have no idea. Frankly it seems more like a bigoted response to Linux.
>
> But we've all seen the type before. COLA's riddled with them.
So is Texas.
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Chris Ahlstrom
>>JeffM wrote:
>>>the time that the Windoze support guy
>>>blamed Ken and his ilk for taking away work from his sort.
>>>Grabbing Ken (US Army retired) by his ponytail
>>>was a BIG mistake.
>>>
> Homer wrote:
>>I missed that one. Got a link?
>>
> http://tinyurl.com/KenStarks-vs-WindozeSupportGuy
It wasn't a friendly approach.
We made contact just under the edge of the canopy. I say "we" made
contact...the initial contact was his right index finger stabbing into my
chest.
"It's _____ ________ hippy freaks like you that are costing us our jobs.
You got any idea how many people are getting pink slips because of your
b_________? Every time you put that ____ on someone's computer, some guy
trying to feed his family has to go home and tell his wife that he lost
his job. How about I snatch that silly little ponytail and give you a
tour of the parking lot?"
The veins in his temples were at critical mass and he physically spit as
he screamed at me in front of his van. This is where the narrative is
going to stop, and it's going to stop for two reasons. First, there's no
good way to tell the rest of the story. Second, it's because that's when
any verbal communication between him and I stopped. He made first hostile
contact and I didn't do anything but react. In the end it was no big
deal...but of the two of us...
I am the only one of the two that did not involuntarily leave his feet
that day.
Besides, that "silly little ponytail" represents all the hair I have
left. Just protectin' the real estate.
--
I can feel for her because, although I have never been an Alaskan prostitute
dancing on the bar in a spangled dress, I still get very bored with washing
and ironing and dishwashing and cooking day after relentless day.
-- Betty MacDonald
Homer
> "It's _____ ________ hippy freaks like you that are costing us our
> jobs. You got any idea how many people are getting pink slips
> because of your b_________? Every time you put that ____ on
> someone's computer, some guy trying to feed his family has to go
> home and tell his wife that he lost his job. How about I snatch
> that silly little ponytail and give you a tour of the parking lot?"
Well, now we know where DooFy works.
--
K. | "The poor have flat-screen TVs."
http://slated.org | ~ Libertarian propagandist Keith
Fedora 8 (Werewolf) on šky | Curtis, explaining why he thinks
kernel 2.6.31.5, up 33 days | we shouldn't tax the rich.
chrisv
> You got any idea how many people are getting pink slips because of your
> b_________? Every time you put that ____ on someone's computer, some guy
> trying to feed his family has to go home and tell his wife that he lost
> his job. How about I snatch that silly little ponytail and give you a
> tour of the parking lot?"
Another POS who thinks the world owes him a job.
Apparently, too stupid to understand that money saved by not buying
overpriced software *still gets spent*, supporting jobs elsewhere.
Antonio Fabrizi
useless shit "chrisv" <chr...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:pp0h07d2ncugqlh04...@4ax.com...
>> "It's _____ ________ hippy freaks like you that are costing us our
>> jobs.
>> You got any idea how many people are getting pink slips because of your
>> b_________? Every time you put that ____ on someone's computer, some
>> guy
>> trying to feed his family has to go home and tell his wife that he lost
>> his job. How about I snatch that silly little ponytail and give you a
>> tour of the parking lot?"
>
> Another POS who thinks the world owes him a job.
"chrisv" is the same useless piece of shit as always.
"chrisv" is a liar. "chrisv" is a useless piece of shit.
Homer
He's like a cottage weaver blaming the effects of the Industrial
Revolution ... on a charity worker who gives second-hand clothes
away to the poor.
--
K. | "The poor have flat-screen TVs."
http://slated.org | ~ Libertarian propagandist Keith
Fedora 8 (Werewolf) on šky | Curtis, explaining why he thinks
kernel 2.6.31.5, up 35 days | we shouldn't tax the rich.
Rex Ballard
> Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
> >
> > http://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.php?title=hey_where_are_all_the_clueless_newbs_who&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1
Pete makes some good points in this article, pointing out that many people have no trouble navigating an Android Phone or an iPhone, but freak when they see the Linux GUI instead of Windows, and many still struggle with the Windows GUI.
Pete probably doesn't remember the days when we used to access computers via a terminal, or we had to use CP/M or MS-DOS and there was no GUI, and getting support over the telephone often meant spending hours with a customer who had typed a semicolon instead of a colon, or a dash instead of a dot.
Apple introduced the Mac as "A computer for the rest of us", but it was very expensive, and any real applications like MacProject were painfully slow. Microsoft tried to introduce Windows, but 1.0, 2.0, 286, 386, and 3.0 were very slow, buggy, ran hardly any applications, and required the most expensive hardware available on the market - it was cheaper to buy a UNIX server or workstation and some X-terminals or some X11 software for the PC.
Windows 3.1 was Microsoft's crowning accomplishment. For 3.0, they had offered a free help line on a 1-800 number, and came up with thousands of "frequently asked questions" - then figured out how to provide those answers in the user interface so that all you had to do was hover, hit f1, or right click the mouse to get context sensitive help. It really was an amazing achievement - if Microsoft deserves a patent, that would be it, but it would be impossible to define the actual patent implementation without publishing strategic source code - besides, it would have expired by now. Of course, Microsoft bought much of the UI from HP, and "borrowed" other parts, especially the UI for Windows 95, from Linux projects like FVWM. Still, with all that context sensitive help, Microsoft was able to grow the PC using population from about 50 million users to around 500 million users in less than 10 years. An amazing feat for any business. The only industry that grew faster was the Internet, with it's millions of UNIX and Linux servers - which grew from 2 million users in 1993 to nearly 500 million by 1997. Much of that early growth was fueled by the Winsock shareware and Mosaic Web Browser, published in 1993. Microsoft's web browser and internet stack wouldn't be part of a stable Windows 95B until April of 1996.
Linux, with it's open source applications, many dating back to the "terminal" days, had user interfaces ranging from command-line to "CHUI", to Athena 2d, to Motif, to Olit, and eventually to GTK/Gnome and QT/KDE.
Google (and several other Linux advocates) saw that having a consistent user interface approach, and keeping application user interfaces separate from their service modules would result in something far easier to use. The result was Chrome and Android. Android is a full blown Linux server with lots of service applications, which can provide information that can be presented using any compatible GUI. In most cases, the service app is tied to the GUI, but when there are multiple apps capable of handling the information, a list of those options is offered.
As a result, each application can be very simple. Rather than a huge complex monolithic application that has to be able to do everything imaginable to any type of office document, each application can have a very specific purpose, working on a specific type of information, and the user gets the ability to choose from thousands of apps, most of which are easier to use than the cell phone itself.
> Is that the same Penguin Pete who launched a vicious attack on Ken
> Starks (of the HeliOS project that donates computers to kids), accusing
> him of being a fraud, and attacking Linux advocacy in general?
>
> http://www.thenixedreport.com/articles/tholbrook2/penguinpete.html
I know what Pete went though. In 2007, I was the one having the stroke, and after going into a surgical procedure that the insurance company decided (after the fact) was only partially covered, leaving me with a huge debt, they realized they couldn't use surgery to fix the problem, and had to go with the "Passive" approach.
It took almost 3 months to get back to where I could walk, eat, and get back to work. I'd lost the left side, and was left-handed.
Ironically, when I did start posting again, even though I had posted that I had had a stroke, the WinTrolls still had their fun with the ad-homonym attacks.
I finally just ignored them.
> http://penguinpetes.com/b2evo/index.php?title=why_i_am_not_a_linux_advocate
>
> I don't think his sort of "advocacy" is especially useful, frankly.
I didn't see anything in the article than indicated that pete was even aware of the nature of the problem. There are many open source advocates who have to stop working on their OSS projects because their paying job responsibilities have increased and they have to do more "Real Work" to meet deadlines and other business commitments.
Many developers and advocates work on OSS with the permission of their employers, and that permission is ristricted. Their OSS participation can't negatively impact their jobs, and they can't doing things that would expose the company to legal liabilities (posting as a representative of the company...)
> Meanwhile, if Ken really is a "scam artist" as "Penguin" claims, he must
> be the most impoverished one I've ever heard of, since he can't even
> afford to pay for a life-saving operation on his partner Diane, after
> she suffered a stroke:
> http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2011/06/when-minor-and-devestating-are-used-in.html
Ken stated in the article that he and diane were in that age where they were old enough for Social Security, but not yet old enough for Medicare, and they hadn't been able to afford to extend their COBRA long enough to bridge the gap.
Since they had some assets, probably retirement funds, they didn't qualify for indigent care. At the same time, they didn't want to drain their entire retirement nest-egg to pay for a surgery that would have left them homeless and indigent for the rest of their lives.
Like so many millions in the United States - they were exposed to all the risks, and getting none of the benefits of all those insurance premiums they had paid to their respective health insurance companies for decades.
I hope Diane makes a speedy recovery and will pray for her. I was lucky, I was able to tolerate the pain as my brain found new pathways to the different parts of my body. It often felt like a nail being driven into my arm or leg, but enduring it and not seeking the pain killers helped me recover parts of my body I thought I had lost for good. Today, you wouldn't even know I'd had a stroke.
For me, it was God working a miracle anonymously.
Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Rex Ballard on Thursday 30 Jun 2011 14:07 : \____
That was a good post until that last line (maybe a metaphor though) ;-
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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RonB
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> ____/ Rex Ballard on Thursday 30 Jun 2011 14:07 : \____
>> I hope Diane makes a speedy recovery and will pray for her. I was
>> lucky, I was able to tolerate the pain as my brain found new pathways
>> to the different parts of my body. It often felt like a nail being
>> driven into my arm or leg, but enduring it and not seeking the pain
>> killers helped me recover parts of my body I thought I had lost for
>> good. Today, you wouldn't even know I'd had a stroke.
>>
>> For me, it was God working a miracle anonymously.
>
> That was a good post until that last line (maybe a metaphor though) ;-
Religious belief should be "censored" now?
BTW, Rex, congratulations. Sounds like quite a story.
--
RonB
Registered Linux User #498581
CentOS 5.6 or VectorLinux Deluxe 6.0
chrisv
>Ironically, when I did start posting again, even though
>I had posted that I had had a stroke, the WinTrolls still
>had their fun with the ad-homonym attacks.
The Wintrolls stroke each other.
--
"There is more truth in one of them than you and your COLA gang." -
Hadron Quark, defending the group of "DFS, billwg, ErikF, flatfish,
etc."
Tessa Hollander
stupid jackass "chrisv" <chr...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:4qjp07dq7tm4pk9gi...@4ax.com...
> Rex Ballard wrote:
>
>>Ironically, when I did start posting again, even though
>>I had posted that I had had a stroke, the WinTrolls still
>>had their fun with the ad-homonym attacks.
>
> The Wintrolls stroke each other.
>
turds and useless shit like "chrisv" leg hump each other with a reach-around
"happy ending."
ask marti for a free ride down the hershey-highway you stupid jackass.
"chrisv" is a liar. "chrisv" is a piece of shit.
Big Steel
I guess Ballard and his obsession with MS drove him to his stroke. It's
a shame that people like him hit the wall like that.
Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ RonB on Thursday 30 Jun 2011 19:35 : \____
Not censored (maybe self-censored, not compulsory). :-)
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Homer
> On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 16:02:27 +0100, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>> ____/ Rex Ballard on Thursday 30 Jun 2011 14:07 : \____
>>> For me, it was God working a miracle anonymously.
>>
>> That was a good post until that last line (maybe a metaphor though)
>> ;-
>
> Religious belief should be "censored" now?
I'm not religious, but equally I'm not venomously anti-religious - a
disturbing trend in today's society. Imperialist history and certain
fundamentalist beliefs aside (Jihadism), there's nothing immoral about
religion per se, and indeed I share many (but not all) of the moral
tenets expounded by certain religions, even if I don't share their
members' faith. In fact, in many ways some members of the anti-religion
movement behave like /it/ is a religion, and a rather Jihadist one at
that. It's spiteful, bigoted and unnecessary, IMO, like homophobia. The
fact that I'm not religious shouldn't mean I'm at war with those who
are.
--
K. | "The poor have flat-screen TVs."
http://slated.org | ~ Libertarian propagandist Keith
Fedora 8 (Werewolf) on šky | Curtis, explaining why he thinks
kernel 2.6.31.5, up 38 days | we shouldn't tax the rich.
Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Homer on Thursday 30 Jun 2011 21:32 : \____
> Verily I say unto thee, that RonB spake thusly:
>> On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 16:02:27 +0100, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>> ____/ Rex Ballard on Thursday 30 Jun 2011 14:07 : \____
>
>>>> For me, it was God working a miracle anonymously.
>>>
>>> That was a good post until that last line (maybe a metaphor though)
>>> ;-
>>
>> Religious belief should be "censored" now?
>
> I'm not religious, but equally I'm not venomously anti-religious - a
> disturbing trend in today's society. Imperialist history and certain
> fundamentalist beliefs aside (Jihadism), there's nothing immoral about
> religion per se, and indeed I share many (but not all) of the moral
> tenets expounded by certain religions, even if I don't share their
> members' faith. In fact, in many ways some members of the anti-religion
> movement behave like /it/ is a religion, and a rather Jihadist one at
> that. It's spiteful, bigoted and unnecessary, IMO, like homophobia. The
> fact that I'm not religious shouldn't mean I'm at war with those who
> are.
What if a school teaches your kid that dinosaurs lived with humans (for example)?
And what if a good GP who saved lives gets no credit and instead prayer is
getting attribution? In places like Texas religion is at war against science,
and the ones picking a bone have an agenda.
Since you've mentioned homophobia, it's usually religions that adhere to it.
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Homer
> ____/ Homer on Thursday 30 Jun 2011 21:32 : \____
>> Verily I say unto thee, that RonB spake thusly:
>>> On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 16:02:27 +0100, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>>> ____/ Rex Ballard on Thursday 30 Jun 2011 14:07 : \____
>>>>>
>>>>> For me, it was God working a miracle anonymously.
>>>>
>>>> That was a good post until that last line (maybe a metaphor though)
>>>> ;-
>>>
>>> Religious belief should be "censored" now?
>>
>> I'm not religious, but equally I'm not venomously anti-religious - a
>> disturbing trend in today's society. Imperialist history and certain
>> fundamentalist beliefs aside (Jihadism), there's nothing immoral
>> about religion per se, and indeed I share many (but not all) of the
>> moral tenets expounded by certain religions, even if I don't share
>> their members' faith. In fact, in many ways some members of the
>> anti-religion movement behave like /it/ is a religion, and a rather
>> Jihadist one at that. It's spiteful, bigoted and unnecessary, IMO,
>> like homophobia. The fact that I'm not religious shouldn't mean I'm
>> at war with those who are.
>
> What if a school teaches your kid that dinosaurs lived with humans
> (for example)?
My school taught me that an atom is a ball with electrons flying around
the outside of it in a linear fashion. That turned out to be inaccurate
too. Should I have launched a Jihad against all science because of that
fact?
I can think of far more important things to worry about than the origin
of the species, whatever it may be. Presumably those Texan children get
taught to read, write and count, without Darwinism or Creationism being
a problem. If people choose to teach their children their beliefs, then
that's none of my business. Those children grow up eventually, discover
this miraculous thing called an opinion, and decide for themselves what
to believe in. I'm not going to persecute people for merely /having/ an
opinion, especially if the opinion has no detrimental effect on my life
whatsoever. They're not attacking me, so why should I attack them?
> And what if a good GP who saved lives gets no credit and instead
> prayer is getting attribution?
No credit? Sounds serious.
Personally I don't believe in prayer, because I don't believe there's a
God to pray /to/, but I've heard enough doctors give up to know science
doesn't have all the answers, and I've seen enough people beat the odds
to know there's a lot to be said for mind over matter, even if they use
some dubious faith to encourage (or comfort) them. Who am I (or you) to
tell them they can't draw strength from their beliefs, however dubious?
> In places like Texas religion is at war against science
Maybe, but who fired the starter pistol?
From what I've seen (elsewhere, at least), it's the anti-religious nuts
who are the /aggressors/, and the religious people just want to be left
in peace. I don't see them hurling missiles in /my/ direction. Do you?
> and the ones picking a bone have an agenda.
Maybe their "agenda" is for people to stop persecuting them.
> Since you've mentioned homophobia, it's usually religions that adhere
> to it.
Homophobia, anti-religion, whatever ... it's all bigotry. One is not an
excuse for the other.
Snit
> Verily I say unto thee, that RonB spake thusly:
>> On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 16:02:27 +0100, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>> ____/ Rex Ballard on Thursday 30 Jun 2011 14:07 : \____
>
>>>> For me, it was God working a miracle anonymously.
>>>
>>> That was a good post until that last line (maybe a metaphor though)
>>> ;-
>>
>> Religious belief should be "censored" now?
>
> I'm not religious,
You are *heavily* religious, with your bizarre view of OSS as your religion.
> but equally I'm not venomously anti-religious - a
> disturbing trend in today's society. Imperialist history and certain
> fundamentalist beliefs aside (Jihadism), there's nothing immoral about
> religion per se, and indeed I share many (but not all) of the moral
> tenets expounded by certain religions, even if I don't share their
> members' faith. In fact, in many ways some members of the anti-religion
> movement behave like /it/ is a religion, and a rather Jihadist one at
> that. It's spiteful, bigoted and unnecessary, IMO, like homophobia.
Or your views on non-OSS software. Sure.
> The fact that I'm not religious shouldn't mean I'm at war with those who are.
You are at war with those who do not share your religion. It shows very
strongly, even if you do not see it.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
I think it is important to teach science in school. I find it sad you do
not agree, but given your past admission that evidence and science are not
important to the way you build your views (at least in some areas), I am not
surprised.
> I'm not going to persecute people for merely /having/ an
> opinion, especially if the opinion has no detrimental effect on my life
> whatsoever. They're not attacking me, so why should I attack them?
People can have whatever opinions they want - but that does not give them
the right to teach religion as science.
...
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
RonB
> Verily I say unto thee, that RonB spake thusly:
>> On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 16:02:27 +0100, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>> ____/ Rex Ballard on Thursday 30 Jun 2011 14:07 : \____
>
>>>> For me, it was God working a miracle anonymously.
>>>
>>> That was a good post until that last line (maybe a metaphor though) ;-
>>
>> Religious belief should be "censored" now?
>
> I'm not religious, but equally I'm not venomously anti-religious - a
> disturbing trend in today's society. Imperialist history and certain
> fundamentalist beliefs aside (Jihadism), there's nothing immoral about
> religion per se, and indeed I share many (but not all) of the moral
> tenets expounded by certain religions, even if I don't share their
> members' faith. In fact, in many ways some members of the anti-religion
> movement behave like /it/ is a religion, and a rather Jihadist one at
> that. It's spiteful, bigoted and unnecessary, IMO, like homophobia. The
> fact that I'm not religious shouldn't mean I'm at war with those who
> are.
I think you've got zealots on both sides of the fence. I'm not ashamed of
my religious beliefs but I don't see any reason to shove them down
anyone's throat either. Although I'm quite willing to defend my beliefs
when they're needlessly attacked.
RonB
> What if a school teaches your kid that dinosaurs lived with humans (for
> example)? And what if a good GP who saved lives gets no credit and
> instead prayer is getting attribution? In places like Texas religion is
> at war against science, and the ones picking a bone have an agenda.
Evolutionary "science" (so-called) has been at war with religion for over
a century. Personally I find the Darwinian "just-so" stories amusing. But
this is really fodder for another newsgroup.
Gregory Shearman
> My school taught me that an atom is a ball with electrons flying around
> the outside of it in a linear fashion. That turned out to be inaccurate
> too. Should I have launched a Jihad against all science because of that
> fact?
What is it now? A bunch of muons or gluons or whatever... I can't keep
up.
> Personally I don't believe in prayer, because I don't believe there's a
> God to pray /to/, but I've heard enough doctors give up to know science
> doesn't have all the answers, and I've seen enough people beat the odds
> to know there's a lot to be said for mind over matter, even if they use
> some dubious faith to encourage (or comfort) them. Who am I (or you) to
> tell them they can't draw strength from their beliefs, however dubious?
I'm of the opinion that prayer works like a placebo. There's an
expectation of success and so this carries through with a positive
attitude towards success... better than negativity.
--
Regards,
Gregory.
Gentoo Linux - Penguin Power
Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ RonB on Friday 01 Jul 2011 06:27 : \____
> On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 22:35:08 +0100, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>
>> What if a school teaches your kid that dinosaurs lived with humans (for
>> example)? And what if a good GP who saved lives gets no credit and
>> instead prayer is getting attribution? In places like Texas religion is
>> at war against science, and the ones picking a bone have an agenda.
>
> Evolutionary "science" (so-called) has been at war with religion for over
> a century. Personally I find the Darwinian "just-so" stories amusing. But
> this is really fodder for another newsgroup.
Okay, fair enough.. :-)
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Gregory Shearman on Friday 01 Jul 2011 06:47 : \____
The problem comes when people replace real treatment with this placebo, like when
the evangelicals have people throw away their pills (and then die) so that
they can do their charlatan gig and make a lot of money.
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Homer on Thursday 30 Jun 2011 23:56 : \____
I think you underestimate the seriousness of the situation in Texas. Do some YouTube or
Google search around that subject and you will see. I too used to think as you do.
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Snit on Friday 01 Jul 2011 01:43 : \____
No, not "religion"... "intelligent design" (paint religion as a science)... the religious
dogma fund this lobby group, the Discovery Institute, to substitute real science
with bogus one. Similar to the way Microsoft pays front groups to pretend to
represent small businesses.
The situation in the UK is vastly different, so people don't appreciate that
it's a problem (globally). Heck, in the US, some schools will teach kids
that the Earth is 6,000 years old, that radiometric dating is a scam,
and diversity of species is "just a theory" (yeah, like gravity!).
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Homer
> On 2011-06-30, Homer <use...@slated.org> wrote:
>
>> My school taught me that an atom is a ball with electrons flying around
>> the outside of it in a linear fashion. That turned out to be inaccurate
>> too. Should I have launched a Jihad against all science because of that
>> fact?
>
> What is it now? A bunch of muons or gluons or whatever... I can't keep
> up.
Actually I wasn't referring to its subcomponents, but quantum states,
analysis of which shows that describing (or visualising) an atom as a
ball is a gross simplification. The electron clouds surrounding atoms
have highly irregular orbitals that produce many different shapes.
>> Personally I don't believe in prayer, because I don't believe there's a
>> God to pray /to/, but I've heard enough doctors give up to know science
>> doesn't have all the answers, and I've seen enough people beat the odds
>> to know there's a lot to be said for mind over matter, even if they use
>> some dubious faith to encourage (or comfort) them. Who am I (or you) to
>> tell them they can't draw strength from their beliefs, however dubious?
>
> I'm of the opinion that prayer works like a placebo. There's an
> expectation of success and so this carries through with a positive
> attitude towards success... better than negativity.
Could be. Whatever it is, it's their business, and it doesn't trigger
some irrational fear response that make me want to persecute them.
Homer
>> Homophobia, anti-religion, whatever ... it's all bigotry. One is not
>> an excuse for the other.
>
> I think you underestimate the seriousness of the situation in Texas.
> Do some YouTube or Google search around that subject and you will see.
> I too used to think as you do.
I Googled for "Texas creationists" and the first hit reveals a bill to
outlaw discrimination against creationists.
Good. I'm all for outlawing discrimination.
The more I look into this subject, the clearer it is that creationists
simply want to be left in peace to follow their beliefs, but they have
to contend with a constant barrage of attacks from anti-religious nuts
who refuse to just live and let live. Sounds strangely familiar...
Chris Ahlstrom
> On 2011-06-30, Homer <use...@slated.org> wrote:
>> My school taught me that an atom is a ball with electrons flying around
>> the outside of it in a linear fashion. That turned out to be inaccurate
>> too. Should I have launched a Jihad against all science because of that
>> fact?
>
> What is it now? A bunch of muons or gluons or whatever... I can't keep
> up.
It's a collection of "Hadrons". :-D
Good sigmonster:
--
Some people pray for more than they are willing to work for.
Homer
> The problem comes when people replace real treatment with this
> placebo, like when the evangelicals have people throw away their pills
> (and then die)
Yes, that is foolish, but then there are also times when medical
treatment isn't much help either, or indeed actually causes death.
Both my parents died from diseases they contracted /inside/ the
hospitals they were admitted to, for example.
> so that they can do their charlatan gig and make a lot of money.
I've often thought the same thing about medical practitioners.
Homer
>>
>> What if a school teaches your kid that dinosaurs lived with humans
>> (for example)? And what if a good GP who saved lives gets no credit
>> and instead prayer is getting attribution? In places like Texas
>> religion is at war against science, and the ones picking a bone have
>> an agenda.
>
> Evolutionary "science" (so-called) has been at war with religion for
> over a century. Personally I find the Darwinian "just-so" stories
> amusing. But this is really fodder for another newsgroup.
And moreover, it should be the subject of /civilised/ debate, not some
kind of Jihad to terminate people who merely hold a different opinion,
as the anti-religious movement seems determined to do.
Gregory Shearman
>
> ____/ Gregory Shearman on Friday 01 Jul 2011 06:47 : \____
>
>> On 2011-06-30, Homer <use...@slated.org> wrote:
>>> My school taught me that an atom is a ball with electrons flying
>>> around the outside of it in a linear fashion. That turned out to be
>>> inaccurate too. Should I have launched a Jihad against all science
>>> because of that fact?
>>
>> What is it now? A bunch of muons or gluons or whatever... I can't
>> keep up.
>>
>>> Personally I don't believe in prayer, because I don't believe
>>> there's a God to pray /to/, but I've heard enough doctors give up to
>>> know science doesn't have all the answers, and I've seen enough
>>> people beat the odds to know there's a lot to be said for mind over
>>> matter, even if they use some dubious faith to encourage (or
>>> comfort) them. Who am I (or you) to tell them they can't draw
>>> strength from their beliefs, however dubious?
>>
>> I'm of the opinion that prayer works like a placebo. There's an
>> expectation of success and so this carries through with a positive
>> attitude towards success... better than negativity.
>
> The problem comes when people replace real treatment with this
> placebo, like when the evangelicals have people throw away their pills
> (and then die) so that they can do their charlatan gig and make a lot
> of money.
Yeah well, they're idiots. There's no help for the terminally stupid.
Gregory Shearman
> Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
>
>> The problem comes when people replace real treatment with this
>> placebo, like when the evangelicals have people throw away their pills
>> (and then die)
>
> Yes, that is foolish, but then there are also times when medical
> treatment isn't much help either, or indeed actually causes death.
>
> Both my parents died from diseases they contracted /inside/ the
> hospitals they were admitted to, for example.
Yeah, my mother died at age 64 from cancer. Nothing stopped it. All the
doctors did, the chemo, the radiation, etc, and they just couldn't stop
it. Yet my father got cancer a few years ago and was treated and was
cured. Sometimes it seems that these things are delivered to us all at
random. Actually, it is *exactly* like it is delievered to us at random.
Gregory Shearman
>> On 2011-06-30, Homer <use...@slated.org> wrote:
>>
>>> My school taught me that an atom is a ball with electrons flying around
>>> the outside of it in a linear fashion. That turned out to be inaccurate
>>> too. Should I have launched a Jihad against all science because of that
>>> fact?
>>
>> What is it now? A bunch of muons or gluons or whatever... I can't keep
>> up.
>
> Actually I wasn't referring to its subcomponents, but quantum states,
> analysis of which shows that describing (or visualising) an atom as a
> ball is a gross simplification. The electron clouds surrounding atoms
> have highly irregular orbitals that produce many different shapes.
Electrons are also in different states and energy levels. Either
particle or wave.
>>> Personally I don't believe in prayer, because I don't believe there's a
>>> God to pray /to/, but I've heard enough doctors give up to know science
>>> doesn't have all the answers, and I've seen enough people beat the odds
>>> to know there's a lot to be said for mind over matter, even if they use
>>> some dubious faith to encourage (or comfort) them. Who am I (or you) to
>>> tell them they can't draw strength from their beliefs, however dubious?
>>
>> I'm of the opinion that prayer works like a placebo. There's an
>> expectation of success and so this carries through with a positive
>> attitude towards success... better than negativity.
>
> Could be. Whatever it is, it's their business, and it doesn't trigger
> some irrational fear response that make me want to persecute them.
Sometimes it appears to me to be an easy way of life to simplify things
down to some benevolent parent figure, caring for us all like we were
babies, all we have to do is be good, and obey the rules....
Then again, I'm a big fan of Albert Camus ;-)
Gregory Shearman
> Gregory Shearman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On 2011-06-30, Homer <use...@slated.org> wrote:
>>> My school taught me that an atom is a ball with electrons flying around
>>> the outside of it in a linear fashion. That turned out to be inaccurate
>>> too. Should I have launched a Jihad against all science because of that
>>> fact?
>>
>> What is it now? A bunch of muons or gluons or whatever... I can't keep
>> up.
>
> It's a collection of "Hadrons". :-D
>
You *had* to go and spoil it all!
chrisv
> Gregory Shearman wrote:
>
>> Homer wrote:
>>
>>> My school taught me that an atom is a ball with electrons flying around
>>> the outside of it in a linear fashion. That turned out to be inaccurate
>>> too. Should I have launched a Jihad against all science because of that
>>> fact?
>>
>> What is it now? A bunch of muons or gluons or whatever... I can't keep
>> up.
>
>It's a collection of "Hadrons". :-D
OMG. Kill me now. 8)
Chris Ahlstrom
Check out Freud's "Civilization and Its Discontents".
--
Am I accompanied by a PARENT or GUARDIAN?
Mark Weber
rat shit "chrisv" <chr...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:8fer07t7idq00fqnb...@4ax.com...
> Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>>
>>It's a collection of "Hadrons". :-D
>
> OMG. Kill me now. 8)
>
do it yourself you mentally ill piece of shit.
slit 'em deep and long you useless turd.
Homer
> Then again, I'm a big fan of Albert Camus ;-)
He's one of my heroes, and not just for his literary contributions.
--
K. | "The poor have flat-screen TVs."
http://slated.org | ~ Libertarian propagandist Keith
Fedora 8 (Werewolf) on šky | Curtis, explaining why he thinks
kernel 2.6.31.5, up 39 days | we shouldn't tax the rich.
Homer
> Check out Freud's "Civilization and Its Discontents".
It's a rather grim view of the human condition, although no doubt true
for certain criminal types. Actually that book could have been written
for Microsoft, or libertarians in general, now that I think about it.
--
K. | "The poor have flat-screen TVs."
http://slated.org | ~ Libertarian propagandist Keith
Fedora 8 (Werewolf) on šky | Curtis, explaining why he thinks
kernel 2.6.31.5, up 39 days | we shouldn't tax the rich.
Snit
12:04 AM:
...
Right.
> Similar to the way Microsoft pays
> front groups to pretend to represent small businesses.
>
> The situation in the UK is vastly different, so people don't appreciate that
> it's a problem (globally). Heck, in the US, some schools will teach kids that
> the Earth is 6,000 years old, that radiometric dating is a scam, and diversity
> of species is "just a theory" (yeah, like gravity!).
Exactly... it is absurd. Teaching such rubbish is inexcusable.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
> Verily I say unto thee, that Gregory Shearman spake thusly:
>> On 2011-06-30, Homer <use...@slated.org> wrote:
>>
>>> My school taught me that an atom is a ball with electrons flying around
>>> the outside of it in a linear fashion. That turned out to be inaccurate
>>> too. Should I have launched a Jihad against all science because of that
>>> fact?
>>
>> What is it now? A bunch of muons or gluons or whatever... I can't keep
>> up.
>
> Actually I wasn't referring to its subcomponents, but quantum states,
> analysis of which shows that describing (or visualising) an atom as a
> ball is a gross simplification. The electron clouds surrounding atoms
> have highly irregular orbitals that produce many different shapes.
You are right: it is a gross simplification but not an outright fabrication,
as ID is. Thus they are not comparable. Still, I think they should have
done a better job teaching you science than what you describe. Maybe if
they had you would not be so much against it (as you have noted you are, at
least in some contexts).
>>> Personally I don't believe in prayer, because I don't believe there's a
>>> God to pray /to/, but I've heard enough doctors give up to know science
>>> doesn't have all the answers, and I've seen enough people beat the odds
>>> to know there's a lot to be said for mind over matter, even if they use
>>> some dubious faith to encourage (or comfort) them. Who am I (or you) to
>>> tell them they can't draw strength from their beliefs, however dubious?
>>
>> I'm of the opinion that prayer works like a placebo. There's an
>> expectation of success and so this carries through with a positive
>> attitude towards success... better than negativity.
>
> Could be. Whatever it is, it's their business, and it doesn't trigger
> some irrational fear response that make me want to persecute them.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
> Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
>> ____/ Homer on Thursday 30 Jun 2011 23:56 : \____
>
>>> Homophobia, anti-religion, whatever ... it's all bigotry. One is not
>>> an excuse for the other.
>>
>> I think you underestimate the seriousness of the situation in Texas.
>> Do some YouTube or Google search around that subject and you will see.
>> I too used to think as you do.
>
> I Googled for "Texas creationists" and the first hit reveals a bill to
> outlaw discrimination against creationists.
>
> Good. I'm all for outlawing discrimination.
>
> The more I look into this subject, the clearer it is that creationists
> simply want to be left in peace to follow their beliefs, but they have
> to contend with a constant barrage of attacks from anti-religious nuts
> who refuse to just live and let live. Sounds strangely familiar...
They want to prevent the teaching of science in schools. That is wrong.
Period.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Homer on Friday 01 Jul 2011 11:30 : \____
> Verily I say unto thee, that RonB spake thusly:
>> On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 22:35:08 +0100, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>>
>>> What if a school teaches your kid that dinosaurs lived with humans
>>> (for example)? And what if a good GP who saved lives gets no credit
>>> and instead prayer is getting attribution? In places like Texas
>>> religion is at war against science, and the ones picking a bone have
>>> an agenda.
>>
>> Evolutionary "science" (so-called) has been at war with religion for
>> over a century. Personally I find the Darwinian "just-so" stories
>> amusing. But this is really fodder for another newsgroup.
>
> And moreover, it should be the subject of /civilised/ debate, not some
> kind of Jihad to terminate people who merely hold a different opinion,
> as the anti-religious movement seems determined to do.
You must be thinking of Dawkins or Pat Condell.
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Homer on Friday 01 Jul 2011 11:10 : \____
> Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
>> ____/ Homer on Thursday 30 Jun 2011 23:56 : \____
>
>>> Homophobia, anti-religion, whatever ... it's all bigotry. One is not
>>> an excuse for the other.
>>
>> I think you underestimate the seriousness of the situation in Texas.
>> Do some YouTube or Google search around that subject and you will see.
>> I too used to think as you do.
>
> I Googled for "Texas creationists" and the first hit reveals a bill to
> outlaw discrimination against creationists.
>
> Good. I'm all for outlawing discrimination.
>
> The more I look into this subject, the clearer it is that creationists
> simply want to be left in peace to follow their beliefs, but they have
> to contend with a constant barrage of attacks from anti-religious nuts
> who refuse to just live and let live. Sounds strangely familiar...
Google for "texas textbooks controversy".
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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JEDIDIAH
>>> ____/ Rex Ballard on Thursday 30 Jun 2011 14:07 : \____
>
>>>> For me, it was God working a miracle anonymously.
>>>
>>> That was a good post until that last line (maybe a metaphor though)
>>> ;-
>>
>> Religious belief should be "censored" now?
>
> disturbing trend in today's society. Imperialist history and certain
> fundamentalist beliefs aside (Jihadism), there's nothing immoral about
> religion per se, and indeed I share many (but not all) of the moral
The problem with most major religions is that they encourage blind
obedience to authority and discourages any sort of skepticism or
critical thinking or differing viewpoints.
[deletia]
Lots of nasty stuff follows from that.
--
Nothing quite gives you an understanding of mysql's |||
popularity as does an attempt to do some simple date / | \
manipulations in postgres.
JEDIDIAH
> On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 22:35:08 +0100, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>
>> What if a school teaches your kid that dinosaurs lived with humans (for
>> example)? And what if a good GP who saved lives gets no credit and
>> instead prayer is getting attribution? In places like Texas religion is
>> at war against science, and the ones picking a bone have an agenda.
>
> Evolutionary "science" (so-called) has been at war with religion for over
> a century. Personally I find the Darwinian "just-so" stories amusing. But
> this is really fodder for another newsgroup.
>
This "war" is entirely one sided.
It's more accurate to state that a small minority of fundementalists
have been at war with Darwin for over a century. The fundies in question
are a very noisy minority.
Most people simply don't care. This includes Catholics.
Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Homer on Friday 01 Jul 2011 11:20 : \____
> Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
>
>> The problem comes when people replace real treatment with this
>> placebo, like when the evangelicals have people throw away their pills
>> (and then die)
>
> Yes, that is foolish, but then there are also times when medical
> treatment isn't much help either, or indeed actually causes death.
>
> Both my parents died from diseases they contracted /inside/ the
> hospitals they were admitted to, for example.
>
>> so that they can do their charlatan gig and make a lot of money.
>
> I've often thought the same thing about medical practitioners.
It needs to be taken on statistical basis.
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Gregory Shearman on Friday 01 Jul 2011 12:44 : \____
My grandmother died from cancer and medical treatment probably gave her several more
months to live. Smoking was too much though...
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Gregory Shearman on Friday 01 Jul 2011 12:39 : \____
The problem is, those who are gullible on the fence. The last thing they need is
a fraud like Popoff killing them for profit.
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ JEDIDIAH on Friday 01 Jul 2011 17:16 : \____
> On 2011-06-30, Homer <use...@slated.org> wrote:
>> Verily I say unto thee, that RonB spake thusly:
>>> On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 16:02:27 +0100, Roy Schestowitz wrote:
>>>> ____/ Rex Ballard on Thursday 30 Jun 2011 14:07 : \____
>>
>>>>> For me, it was God working a miracle anonymously.
>>>>
>>>> That was a good post until that last line (maybe a metaphor though)
>>>> ;-
>>>
>>> Religious belief should be "censored" now?
>>
>> I'm not religious, but equally I'm not venomously anti-religious - a
>> disturbing trend in today's society. Imperialist history and certain
>> fundamentalist beliefs aside (Jihadism), there's nothing immoral about
>> religion per se, and indeed I share many (but not all) of the moral
>
> The problem with most major religions is that they encourage blind
> obedience to authority and discourages any sort of skepticism or
> critical thinking or differing viewpoints.
>
> [deletia]
>
> Lots of nasty stuff follows from that.
They have good spokespeople though.
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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JeffM
>>>For me, it was God working a miracle anonymously.
>>>
>>That was a good post until that last line (maybe a metaphor though)
>>
>Religious belief should be "censored" now?
>
(as opposed to the belief that God is all things).
I am as pro-science/anti-superstition an atheist as you'll find,
but sometimes the $DIETY metaphor is a useful shorthand
for things that are beyond our control. I think that
what has been done in the name of religion is often shameful
--but as long as one isn't INTENT on FORCING a belief on me,
and is simply using the meme in a way that could be interpreted as
"It's out of my hands now", I just let it slide.
Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ JeffM on Friday 01 Jul 2011 19:07 : \____
Yes, I'm of the came camp.
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Homer
> ____/ Homer on Friday 01 Jul 2011 11:20 : \____
>> Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
>>
>>> The problem comes when people replace real treatment with this
>>> placebo, like when the evangelicals have people throw away their
>>> pills (and then die)
>>
>> Yes, that is foolish, but then there are also times when medical
>> treatment isn't much help either, or indeed actually causes death.
>>
>> Both my parents died from diseases they contracted /inside/ the
>> hospitals they were admitted to, for example.
>>
>>> so that they can do their charlatan gig and make a lot of money.
>>
>> I've often thought the same thing about medical practitioners.
>
> It needs to be taken on statistical basis.
That's little comfort to me, or my deceased parents.
--
K. | "The poor have flat-screen TVs."
http://slated.org | ~ Libertarian propagandist Keith
Fedora 8 (Werewolf) on šky | Curtis, explaining why he thinks
kernel 2.6.31.5, up 39 days | we shouldn't tax the rich.
Homer
> ____/ Homer on Friday 01 Jul 2011 11:30 : \____
>> And moreover, it should be the subject of /civilised/ debate, not some
>> kind of Jihad to terminate people who merely hold a different opinion,
>> as the anti-religious movement seems determined to do.
>
> You must be thinking of Dawkins or Pat Condell.
Yes, and many others in the "militant atheism" movement, which is fairly
obviously an extremist ideology:
[quote]
Militant atheism, also referred to as atheist fundamentalism, is a term
which refers to the ideology of hostility towards religion. British
philosopher Julian Baggini defines militant atheism as "atheism which is
actively hostile to religion", which "requires more than strong
disagreement with religion — it requires something verging on hatred and
is characterised by a desire to wipe out all forms of religious belief.
Militant atheists tend to make one or both of two claims that moderate
atheists do not. The first is that religion is demonstrably false or
nonsense and the second is that it is usually or always harmful.".
Militant atheism was an integral part of the materialism of
Marxism–Leninism
[/quote]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militant_atheist
Ironically, Dawkins is a supporter of the Great Ape Project – a movement
to extend certain moral and legal rights to all great apes, and yet (as
a self-described "militant atheist") he apparently doesn't believe he
should extend the same courtesy to his fellow man, if they happen to
believe in God. Maybe I should start a "militant anti-ape" movement and
ask him what he thinks of that.
As for Pat Condell (whom I'd never heard of until now), from the very
brief research I did, it appears he's nothing more than a racist thug
using the pretext of atheism to expound his bigoted views.
It's hard to believe that the simple premise a benevolent deity could
invoke so much hatred towards its believers. These militants apparently
fail to appreciate the irony that their hostile behaviour only confirms
their malevolent nature, and thus completely undermines any credence to
their arguments. They're not academics with a valid opinion, they're
just vicious thugs who gain a sick pleasure from attacking people. If
they had a valid point, they could debate it civilly, without militancy.
--
K. | "The poor have flat-screen TVs."
http://slated.org | ~ Libertarian propagandist Keith
Fedora 8 (Werewolf) on šky | Curtis, explaining why he thinks
kernel 2.6.31.5, up 39 days | we shouldn't tax the rich.
Homer
>
So they want textbooks that emphasise their beliefs ... just like you
want articles that emphasise your belief in Free Software.
I read the Guardian, not the Times. Does that make me a "revisionist"
... or a liberal?
Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Homer on Friday 01 Jul 2011 20:10 : \____
> Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
>> ____/ Homer on Friday 01 Jul 2011 11:30 : \____
>
>>> And moreover, it should be the subject of /civilised/ debate, not some
>>> kind of Jihad to terminate people who merely hold a different opinion,
>>> as the anti-religious movement seems determined to do.
>>
>> You must be thinking of Dawkins or Pat Condell.
>
> Yes, and many others in the "militant atheism" movement, which is fairly
> obviously an extremist ideology:
>
> [quote]
> Militant atheism, also referred to as atheist fundamentalism, is a term
> which refers to the ideology of hostility towards religion. British
> philosopher Julian Baggini defines militant atheism as "atheism which is
> actively hostile to religion", which "requires more than strong
> disagreement with religion — it requires something verging on hatred and
> is characterised by a desire to wipe out all forms of religious belief.
> Militant atheists tend to make one or both of two claims that moderate
> atheists do not. The first is that religion is demonstrably false or
> nonsense and the second is that it is usually or always harmful.".
> Militant atheism was an integral part of the materialism of
> Marxism–Leninism
> [/quote]
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militant_atheist
Militant atheism is not Dawkins's style, it is maybe Christopher Hitchens, who can be
rather abrasive at times although he does make some valid points.
> Ironically, Dawkins is a supporter of the Great Ape Project – a movement
> to extend certain moral and legal rights to all great apes, and yet (as
> a self-described "militant atheist") he apparently doesn't believe he
> should extend the same courtesy to his fellow man, if they happen to
> believe in God. Maybe I should start a "militant anti-ape" movement and
> ask him what he thinks of that.
I think you're addressing this at the wrong person. Many things get falsely attributed
to him, such as calls for arrest of the Pope when he visited the UK. One of the actual
points he makes invariantly is that pushing children to inherit a patent's dogma
is unreasonable. It defies freedom of choice, maybe freedom too (in general).
> As for Pat Condell (whom I'd never heard of until now), from the very
> brief research I did, it appears he's nothing more than a racist thug
> using the pretext of atheism to expound his bigoted views.
That's a nice way of putting it. But as a standup comedian he does make
some good jokes.
> It's hard to believe that the simple premise a benevolent deity could
> invoke so much hatred towards its believers. These militants apparently
> fail to appreciate the irony that their hostile behaviour only confirms
> their malevolent nature, and thus completely undermines any credence to
> their arguments. They're not academics with a valid opinion, they're
> just vicious thugs who gain a sick pleasure from attacking people. If
> they had a valid point, they could debate it civilly, without militancy.
That depends. Dawkins was an academic for many years (he is almost 70 now) and he wrote
many technical books. It is the attack on his work and on himself too (think
along the lines of the trolls here, attacking Linux and its proponents) which
I believe led him to preaching about the dangers of religious indoctrination.
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Homer on Friday 01 Jul 2011 20:28 : \____
> Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
>>
>> Google for "texas textbooks controversy".
>
> So they want textbooks that emphasise their beliefs ... just like you
> want articles that emphasise your belief in Free Software.
>
> I read the Guardian, not the Times. Does that make me a "revisionist"
> ... or a liberal?
History is not about "beliefs" but about observations and analysis of
written records from the time; and for school children those books are
obligatory, they are not like choosing a newspaper. Moreover, because Texas is
such a large state when the publisher print it for the Texas 'standard'
all other states' kids (next generation) receive the same disinformation.
Chuck Norris and other misguided minions have flooded (by funding) Texan
panels with religious zealots who are unfit to decide on children's education.
Not only are they not professionally qualified but they also think there
was a Great Flood and other such lunacy.
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Homer on Friday 01 Jul 2011 20:14 : \____
> Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
>> ____/ Homer on Friday 01 Jul 2011 11:20 : \____
>>> Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
>>>
>>>> The problem comes when people replace real treatment with this
>>>> placebo, like when the evangelicals have people throw away their
>>>> pills (and then die)
>>>
>>> Yes, that is foolish, but then there are also times when medical
>>> treatment isn't much help either, or indeed actually causes death.
>>>
>>> Both my parents died from diseases they contracted /inside/ the
>>> hospitals they were admitted to, for example.
>>>
>>>> so that they can do their charlatan gig and make a lot of money.
>>>
>>> I've often thought the same thing about medical practitioners.
>>
>> It needs to be taken on statistical basis.
>
> That's little comfort to me, or my deceased parents.
I know, but we cannot led anecdotal evidence alone imply that the medical profession
is a scam (to name the extreme ends).
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Snit
Can you give some examples of this "militancy"?
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Homer
> ____/ JEDIDIAH on Friday 01 Jul 2011 17:16 : \____
>> The problem with most major religions is that they encourage blind
>> obedience to authority and discourages any sort of skepticism or
>> critical thinking or differing viewpoints.
>>
>> [deletia]
>>
>> Lots of nasty stuff follows from that.
>
> They have good spokespeople though.
So do militant atheists, apparently.
Homer
> On 2011-06-30, Homer <use...@slated.org> wrote:
>> I'm not religious, but equally I'm not venomously anti-religious - a
>> disturbing trend in today's society. Imperialist history and certain
>> fundamentalist beliefs aside (Jihadism), there's nothing immoral
>> about religion per se, and indeed I share many (but not all) of the
>> moral
>
> The problem with most major religions is that they encourage blind
> obedience to authority and discourages any sort of skepticism or
> critical thinking or differing viewpoints.
I'm sure they do, but since religion is voluntary then surely its up to
the individual to decide whether or not to obey those principles.
> Lots of nasty stuff follows from that.
I'd hope we've moved on from ignorant peasants subjugated by the church
in the middle-ages. AFAICT the only remaining threats from religion are
middle-eastern fundamentalists and militant atheists (and some residual
"troubles" in Northern Ireland, which is mostly a political pretext). I
don't feel especially threatened by the average, civilised Christian.
Snit
> Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
>> ____/ Homer on Friday 01 Jul 2011 11:20 : \____
>>> Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
>>>
>>>> The problem comes when people replace real treatment with this
>>>> placebo, like when the evangelicals have people throw away their
>>>> pills (and then die)
>>>
>>> Yes, that is foolish, but then there are also times when medical
>>> treatment isn't much help either, or indeed actually causes death.
>>>
>>> Both my parents died from diseases they contracted /inside/ the
>>> hospitals they were admitted to, for example.
>>>
>>>> so that they can do their charlatan gig and make a lot of money.
>>>
>>> I've often thought the same thing about medical practitioners.
>>
>> It needs to be taken on statistical basis.
>
> That's little comfort to me, or my deceased parents.
And explains, to some extent, your anti-science views. Still, I am
sincerely sorry to hear about your parents. My condolences.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Snit
> Verily I say unto thee, that JEDIDIAH spake thusly:
>> On 2011-06-30, Homer <use...@slated.org> wrote:
>
>>> I'm not religious, but equally I'm not venomously anti-religious - a
>>> disturbing trend in today's society. Imperialist history and certain
>>> fundamentalist beliefs aside (Jihadism), there's nothing immoral
>>> about religion per se, and indeed I share many (but not all) of the
>>> moral
>>
>> The problem with most major religions is that they encourage blind
>> obedience to authority and discourages any sort of skepticism or
>> critical thinking or differing viewpoints.
>
> I'm sure they do, but since religion is voluntary then surely its up to
> the individual to decide whether or not to obey those principles.
>
>> Lots of nasty stuff follows from that.
>
> I'd hope we've moved on from ignorant peasants subjugated by the church
> in the middle-ages. AFAICT the only remaining threats from religion are
> middle-eastern fundamentalists and militant atheists (and some residual
> "troubles" in Northern Ireland, which is mostly a political pretext). I
> don't feel especially threatened by the average, civilised Christian.
Why do you feel threatened by atheists?
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Homer
> ____/ Homer on Friday 01 Jul 2011 20:28 : \____
>> Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
>>>
>>> Google for "texas textbooks controversy".
>>
>> So they want textbooks that emphasise their beliefs ... just like you
>> want articles that emphasise your belief in Free Software.
>>
>> I read the Guardian, not the Times. Does that make me a "revisionist"
>> ... or a liberal?
>
> History is not about "beliefs" but about observations and analysis of
> written records from the time; and for school children those books are
> obligatory, they are not like choosing a newspaper.
From what I've read of this débâcle, they're not /changing the facts/ in
their textbooks, but merely changing the way those facts are presented.
1 + 1 will still equal 2, and Abraham Lincoln will still be the 16th
President of the United States, but the tone of the textbooks will be
altered to be more sympathetic with their beliefs. I don't sympathise
with those beliefs, but equally I respect their right to have them. It's
none of my business, I'm sure.
> Moreover, because Texas is such a large state when the publisher print
> it for the Texas 'standard' all other states' kids (next generation)
> receive
Well then they should make their own textbooks and quit whining. It's
their choice to rely on a Christian stronghold for textbooks, after all.
States too incompetent to write their own textbooks should really pause
to consider the irony of criticising others' textbooks.
> the same disinformation.
That presumes the content of these books is factually incorrect, rather
than merely biased, which AFAICT is not the case.
> Chuck Norris and other misguided minions
It's his choice, so labelling him a "misguided minion" is rather petty.
> have flooded (by funding) Texan panels with religious zealots
As opposed to militant atheist zealots who demand Christians stop being
Christians?
> who are unfit to decide on children's education.
Are they any less qualified than you?
So how many children do you have, then?
> Not only are they not professionally qualified but they also think there
> was a Great Flood and other such lunacy.
There's certainly a great flood of lunacy, although most of it seems to
be coming from frothing anti-religious militant atheists, AFAICT.
An Old Friend
CA337577.9D811%use...@gallopinginsanity.com in stone using Trajan:
It is true that the extreme aseptic and antiseptic measures taken by
hospitals has helped create the ultra-resistant strains of bacteria we
experience today.
That said, I'm not sure I'd want to go back to the days where you went to
the barber for surgery (who may have used the same blade for shaving and
surgery) and the only anesthesia available was getting so drunk you passed
out.
I sense that in a few decades, as certain medicines become less and less
effective, we might start seeing a trend back to the way doctors treated
patients in the 1920s and 30s, when the bedside manner was more important
than the medications being given. Comforting the patient and easing their
pain was the most important concern. That's not to say that I favor
everything going back to those times, but it's just something I've
noticed. And it obviously won't be true for other illnesses that are far
more easily treated now than before, such as eye surgery done with lasers
and remote-controlled surgical procedures that speed up healing time and
reduce the chance of getting one of those resistant infections.
Snit
The states are not the ones writing the textbooks.
Nor did anyone say they were.
>> the same disinformation.
>
> That presumes the content of these books is factually incorrect, rather
> than merely biased, which AFAICT is not the case.
>
>> Chuck Norris and other misguided minions
>
> It's his choice, so labelling him a "misguided minion" is rather petty.
>
>> have flooded (by funding) Texan panels with religious zealots
>
> As opposed to militant atheist zealots who demand Christians stop being
> Christians?
Be what you want - but do not push non-science into science classes. Or
your religion into any class.
>> who are unfit to decide on children's education.
>
> Are they any less qualified than you?
>
> So how many children do you have, then?
>
>> Not only are they not professionally qualified but they also think there
>> was a Great Flood and other such lunacy.
>
> There's certainly a great flood of lunacy, although most of it seems to
> be coming from frothing anti-religious militant atheists, AFAICT.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Homer
> Militant atheism is not Dawkins's style
In his own words:
[quote]
I am a fairly militant atheist, with a fair degree of active hostility
toward religion. I certainly was hostile toward it at school, from the
age of about sixteen onwards. I mellowed a bit in my twenties and
thirties. But I'm getting more militant again now.
[/quote]
Reinventing the future: conversations with the world's leading
scientists, by Thomas A. Bass.
http://tinyurl.com/68o3lf4 (Google Books)
> it is maybe Christopher Hitchens, who can be rather abrasive at times
> although he does make some valid points.
The most valid point is there's no good reason to be hostile toward
people simply because they believe in God, any more than there's a good
reason to be hostile toward those who believe in Santa Claus or the
Tooth Fairy.
> Dawkins was an academic for many years (he is almost 70 now) and he wrote
> many technical books. It is the attack on his work and on himself too
The only thing I'm attacking is his militancy. His other activities mean
nothing to me.
Snit
...
>>>>> I've often thought the same thing about medical practitioners.
>>>>
>>>> It needs to be taken on statistical basis.
>>>
>>> That's little comfort to me, or my deceased parents.
>>
>> And explains, to some extent, your anti-science views. Still, I am
>> sincerely sorry to hear about your parents. My condolences.
>
> It is true that the extreme aseptic and antiseptic measures taken by
> hospitals has helped create the ultra-resistant strains of bacteria we
> experience today.
No doubt. And it is also true that hospitals can and *should* do much
better. I have many examples of people I have known in hospitals who have
not been able to get a nurse to come see them, even when they clearly needed
help. In at least one example, the person took to calling someone outside
of the hospital to have them call into the hospital to argue their case
(they were not feeling well enough to just call directly in and argue). And
many hospitals *still* have not instituted things such as checklists for
nurses and surgeons... even though it has been shown to be a big benefit.
Even for "simple" things such as washing hands - checklists help get people
to remember.
> That said, I'm not sure I'd want to go back to the days where you went to
> the barber for surgery (who may have used the same blade for shaving and
> surgery) and the only anesthesia available was getting so drunk you passed
> out.
>
> I sense that in a few decades, as certain medicines become less and less
> effective, we might start seeing a trend back to the way doctors treated
> patients in the 1920s and 30s, when the bedside manner was more important
> than the medications being given. Comforting the patient and easing their
> pain was the most important concern. That's not to say that I favor
> everything going back to those times, but it's just something I've
> noticed.
Bedside manner is still important... but with the insurance running things
and pushing doctors to see an insane number of patients, it is something
even the good doctors find challenging to do.
> And it obviously won't be true for other illnesses that are far
> more easily treated now than before, such as eye surgery done with lasers
> and remote-controlled surgical procedures that speed up healing time and
> reduce the chance of getting one of those resistant infections.
There are also new classes of drugs likely to come forth to deal with
infections and the like - which does not excuse the handing out of
antibiotics like they were candy... nor treating livestock so poorly they
need doses of antibiotics just to stay alive.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Chris Ahlstrom
> It's hard to believe that the simple premise a benevolent deity could
> invoke so much hatred towards its believers. These militants apparently
> fail to appreciate the irony that their hostile behaviour only confirms
> their malevolent nature, and thus completely undermines any credence to
> their arguments. They're not academics with a valid opinion, they're
> just vicious thugs who gain a sick pleasure from attacking people. If
> they had a valid point, they could debate it civilly, without militancy.
Personally, I grew up Catholic, and so I understand the attraction towards
religion. But my attitude is just "live and let live"... some people never
get over their childhood training.
--
Some people pray for more than they are willing to work for.
Snit
> Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
>
>> Militant atheism is not Dawkins's style
>
> In his own words:
>
> [quote]
> I am a fairly militant atheist, with a fair degree of active hostility
> toward religion. I certainly was hostile toward it at school, from the
> age of about sixteen onwards. I mellowed a bit in my twenties and
> thirties. But I'm getting more militant again now.
> [/quote]
>
> Reinventing the future: conversations with the world's leading
> scientists, by Thomas A. Bass.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/68o3lf4 (Google Books)
>
>> it is maybe Christopher Hitchens, who can be rather abrasive at times
>> although he does make some valid points.
>
> The most valid point is there's no good reason to be hostile toward
> people simply because they believe in God, any more than there's a good
> reason to be hostile toward those who believe in Santa Claus or the
> Tooth Fairy.
The hostility is not, as far as I know, toward people having beliefs - it is
in pushing those irrational beliefs into public schools and the like.
>> Dawkins was an academic for many years (he is almost 70 now) and he wrote
>> many technical books. It is the attack on his work and on himself too
>
> The only thing I'm attacking is his militancy. His other activities mean
> nothing to me.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Chris Ahlstrom
>> Chuck Norris and other misguided minions
>
> It's his choice, so labelling him a "misguided minion" is rather petty.
Chuck Norris can defeat all arguments with a simple Giecho Hyung Yi Bu Sang
Gup move.
> There's certainly a great flood of lunacy, although most of it seems to
> be coming from frothing anti-religious militant atheists, AFAICT.
Not sure I agree with that one.
I offer a Jeet Kune Do move. Can you counter?
<grin> <grimace>
--
I once witnessed a long-winded, month-long flamewar over the use of
mice vs. trackballs... It was very silly.
-- Matt Welsh
Chris Ahlstrom
> Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
>> ____/ JEDIDIAH on Friday 01 Jul 2011 17:16 : \____
>
>>> The problem with most major religions is that they encourage blind
>>> obedience to authority and discourages any sort of skepticism or
>>> critical thinking or differing viewpoints.
>>>
>>> [deletia]
>>>
>>> Lots of nasty stuff follows from that.
>>
>> They have good spokespeople though.
>
> So do militant atheists, apparently.
So we all agree then... dogmatism is not a Good Thing.
I congratulate Jed on his statement, a very succint point.
--
Nobody ever forgets where he buried the hatchet.
-- Kin Hubbard
Chris Ahlstrom
> Verily I say unto thee, that JEDIDIAH spake thusly:
>> On 2011-06-30, Homer <use...@slated.org> wrote:
>
>>> I'm not religious, but equally I'm not venomously anti-religious - a
>>> disturbing trend in today's society. Imperialist history and certain
>>> fundamentalist beliefs aside (Jihadism), there's nothing immoral
>>> about religion per se, and indeed I share many (but not all) of the
>>> moral
>>
>> The problem with most major religions is that they encourage blind
>> obedience to authority and discourages any sort of skepticism or
>> critical thinking or differing viewpoints.
>
> I'm sure they do, but since religion is voluntary then surely its up to
> the individual to decide whether or not to obey those principles.
>
>> Lots of nasty stuff follows from that.
>
> I'd hope we've moved on from ignorant peasants subjugated by the church
> in the middle-ages. AFAICT the only remaining threats from religion are
> middle-eastern fundamentalists and militant atheists (and some residual
> "troubles" in Northern Ireland, which is mostly a political pretext). I
> don't feel especially threatened by the average, civilised Christian.
Just don't depend on one for certain scientific teaching.
--
*** Topic for #redhat: ReDHaT is the answer to all your problems. It
could be the start too!
Homer
> ____/ Homer on Friday 01 Jul 2011 20:14 : \____
>> Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
>>> ____/ Homer on Friday 01 Jul 2011 11:20 : \____
>>>> Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
>>>>
>>>>> The problem comes when people replace real treatment with this
>>>>> placebo, like when the evangelicals have people throw away their
>>>>> pills (and then die)
>>>>
>>>> Yes, that is foolish, but then there are also times when medical
>>>> treatment isn't much help either, or indeed actually causes death.
>>>>
>>>> Both my parents died from diseases they contracted /inside/ the
>>>> hospitals they were admitted to, for example.
>>>>
>>>>> so that they can do their charlatan gig and make a lot of money.
>>>>
>>>> I've often thought the same thing about medical practitioners.
>>>
>>> It needs to be taken on statistical basis.
>>
>> That's little comfort to me, or my deceased parents.
>
> I know, but we cannot led anecdotal evidence alone imply that the
> medical profession is a scam (to name the extreme ends).
My parents' deaths were neither anecdotal nor mere statistics, and
neither was the suffering they endured for many years at the hands
of the apathetic and incompetent medical profession - most of whom
seem to have more compassion for golf, private patients and money,
than actually healing the sick.
They should change the Hippocratic Oath to the Hypocritical Oath.
I'm sure Ken Starks and his partner Diane would agree.
Snit
> Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
>> ____/ Homer on Friday 01 Jul 2011 20:14 : \____
>>> Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
>>>> ____/ Homer on Friday 01 Jul 2011 11:20 : \____
>>>>> Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The problem comes when people replace real treatment with this
>>>>>> placebo, like when the evangelicals have people throw away their
>>>>>> pills (and then die)
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, that is foolish, but then there are also times when medical
>>>>> treatment isn't much help either, or indeed actually causes death.
>>>>>
>>>>> Both my parents died from diseases they contracted /inside/ the
>>>>> hospitals they were admitted to, for example.
>>>>>
>>>>>> so that they can do their charlatan gig and make a lot of money.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've often thought the same thing about medical practitioners.
>>>>
>>>> It needs to be taken on statistical basis.
>>>
>>> That's little comfort to me, or my deceased parents.
>>
>> I know, but we cannot led anecdotal evidence alone imply that the
>> medical profession is a scam (to name the extreme ends).
>
> My parents' deaths were neither anecdotal nor mere statistics, and
> neither was the suffering they endured for many years at the hands
> of the apathetic and incompetent medical profession - most of whom
> seem to have more compassion for golf, private patients and money,
> than actually healing the sick.
I would love to see you show statistics to back up that as being the norm.
> They should change the Hippocratic Oath to the Hypocritical Oath.
>
> I'm sure Ken Starks and his partner Diane would agree.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Chris Ahlstrom on Friday 01 Jul 2011 22:13 : \____
My remark was partly sarcastic.
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Chris Ahlstrom on Friday 01 Jul 2011 22:14 : \____
What is "scientific teaching"? Teaching of the sciences or a delegation of
teaching class? As in, today we learn mythology, tomorrow we learn truth, let
the kids decide (don't forget the Earth on turtleback theory!). :-)
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Hadron
>
> My parents' deaths were neither anecdotal nor mere statistics, and
> neither was the suffering they endured for many years at the hands
> of the apathetic and incompetent medical profession - most of whom
> seem to have more compassion for golf, private patients and money,
> than actually healing the sick.
>
> They should change the Hippocratic Oath to the Hypocritical Oath.
You really are a sad, ignorant and vicious old man.
Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Homer on Friday 01 Jul 2011 21:58 : \____
> Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
>
>> Militant atheism is not Dawkins's style
>
> In his own words:
>
> [quote]
> I am a fairly militant atheist, with a fair degree of active hostility
> toward religion. I certainly was hostile toward it at school, from the
> age of about sixteen onwards. I mellowed a bit in my twenties and
> thirties. But I'm getting more militant again now.
> [/quote]
>
> Reinventing the future: conversations with the world's leading
> scientists, by Thomas A. Bass.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/68o3lf4 (Google Books)
He is also militant towards Iraq, acting as a major apologist for the invasion.
>> it is maybe Christopher Hitchens, who can be rather abrasive at times
>> although he does make some valid points.
>
> The most valid point is there's no good reason to be hostile toward
> people simply because they believe in God, any more than there's a good
> reason to be hostile toward those who believe in Santa Claus or the
> Tooth Fairy.
He is hostile toward people who /preach/ to the gullible about it (about Santa,
Tooth Fairy, or whatever other fiction).
>> Dawkins was an academic for many years (he is almost 70 now) and he wrote
>> many technical books. It is the attack on his work and on himself too
>
> The only thing I'm attacking is his militancy. His other activities mean
> nothing to me.
He is a teacher.
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Homer
>> Homer stated in post 3ui1e8-...@sky.matrix on 7/1/11 12:14 PM:
>>> That's little comfort to me, or my deceased parents.
>>
>> And explains, to some extent, your anti-science views.
I am not "anti-science". I simply don't have blind faith ... in
anything, science or religion, but I don't see why that means I
should be "militant" towards those who do, either.
Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Snit on Friday 01 Jul 2011 22:09 : \____
> The hostility is not, as far as I know, toward people having beliefs - it is
> in pushing those irrational beliefs into public schools and the like.
Yes, you beat me to it. And many such people do so for their own agenda,
which in many cases leads to the kids' remorse when they mature.
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Chris Ahlstrom on Friday 01 Jul 2011 22:05 : \____
Regarding "live and let live", it gets complicated when there is imposition. I very
much doubt many among the atheists impose upon others one doctrine or another. There
are extreme cases which are not the norm.
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Snit
> Verily I say unto thee, that Snit spake thusly:
>>> Homer stated in post 3ui1e8-...@sky.matrix on 7/1/11 12:14 PM:
>
>>>> That's little comfort to me, or my deceased parents.
>>>
>>> And explains, to some extent, your anti-science views.
>
> I am not "anti-science". I simply don't have blind faith ... in
> anything, science or religion, but I don't see why that means I
> should be "militant" towards those who do, either.
The other day you were talking about how you did not care what science said
in terms of choice... you directly said you would not accept studies and
evidence as "valid". You prefer to base your views on what you *want* to be
correct - not what the evidence says. This is your right, but it is not a
choice I agree with; I prefer to look at the evidence and to accept it -
though also to think about it and examine it (in other words, I do not
always accept the most common view of the data).
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Homer on Friday 01 Jul 2011 21:30 : \____
> Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
>> ____/ Homer on Friday 01 Jul 2011 20:28 : \____
>>> Verily I say unto thee, that Roy Schestowitz spake thusly:
>>>>
>>>> Google for "texas textbooks controversy".
>>>
>>> So they want textbooks that emphasise their beliefs ... just like you
>>> want articles that emphasise your belief in Free Software.
>>>
>>> I read the Guardian, not the Times. Does that make me a "revisionist"
>>> ... or a liberal?
>>
>> History is not about "beliefs" but about observations and analysis of
>> written records from the time; and for school children those books are
>> obligatory, they are not like choosing a newspaper.
>
> From what I've read of this débâcle, they're not /changing the facts/ in
> their textbooks, but merely changing the way those facts are presented.
> 1 + 1 will still equal 2, and Abraham Lincoln will still be the 16th
> President of the United States, but the tone of the textbooks will be
> altered to be more sympathetic with their beliefs. I don't sympathise
> with those beliefs, but equally I respect their right to have them. It's
> none of my business, I'm sure.
A lot of people in the US are in fact offended by the revisionism, and rightly so,
IMHO. The US would not be the first nation to adhere to what's comfortable (e.g.
whitewashing genocide of the Indians aka First People/Natives, slavery) rather
than what is true. Just as we dislike Microsoft rewriting history about its
crimes, those whose ancestors were brutally abused and murdered do not like
to see history rewritten.
>> Moreover, because Texas is such a large state when the publisher print
>> it for the Texas 'standard' all other states' kids (next generation)
>> receive
>
> Well then they should make their own textbooks and quit whining. It's
> their choice to rely on a Christian stronghold for textbooks, after all.
> States too incompetent to write their own textbooks should really pause
> to consider the irony of criticising others' textbooks.
Part of the revisionism is that the US was built on religious values when in fact
the very opposite is true. This is a Trojan horse for eradication of free-thinkers
and the defence they find in the Constitution. They are the largest growing group
of this kind and there are attempts to impede this awakening which would make
people more civilised.
>> the same disinformation.
>
> That presumes the content of these books is factually incorrect, rather
> than merely biased, which AFAICT is not the case.
>
>> Chuck Norris and other misguided minions
>
> It's his choice, so labelling him a "misguided minion" is rather petty.
Did you see what he labels people who don't have the same beliefs as him?
>> have flooded (by funding) Texan panels with religious zealots
>
> As opposed to militant atheist zealots who demand Christians stop being
> Christians?
>
>> who are unfit to decide on children's education.
>
> Are they any less qualified than you?
They are not possessing technical qualifications to teach and make these decisions. Look it
up, it has been shown and documented. It's like those drones Microsoft sent
to send for voting in favour of OOXML. These are pawns.
> So how many children do you have, then?
None, but you and I were both kids many moons ago.
>> Not only are they not professionally qualified but they also think there
>> was a Great Flood and other such lunacy.
>
> There's certainly a great flood of lunacy, although most of it seems to
> be coming from frothing anti-religious militant atheists, AFAICT.
Lunacy? No. Who are those "militant atheists" you refer to?
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
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Roy Schestowitz
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____/ Homer on Friday 01 Jul 2011 22:14 : \____
I don't know the circumstances of either cases, but to generalise and insinuating that GPs
are money-grabbing golf-loving playboys is similar to the painting of those who
resist religious lobbying as "militant". That generalisation gets us nowhere.
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Snit
2:31 PM:
>> The hostility is not, as far as I know, toward people having beliefs - it is
>> in pushing those irrational beliefs into public schools and the like.
>
> Yes, you beat me to it. And many such people do so for their own agenda,
> which in many cases leads to the kids' remorse when they mature.
Pretty much comes down to the idea that if you want to believe the world is
the back of a turtle, that is fine with me... but do not teach that to *my*
kids as "truth". I have no problem with the teaching of different creation
myths in schools, and that would include the creationist myth as well as
many others.
To present the basic ideas of evolution as anything other than well
established and supported by the evidence is irresponsible; there is no
excuse to claim any mythologies are on equal footing.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
Roy Schestowitz
Hash: SHA1
____/ Snit on Friday 01 Jul 2011 22:49 : \____
People are led to believe that teachers have a lot of power to just tell children what
to think, but they are actually strictly tied to a curriculum (if not, they get
fired), just as judges are tied to loads of laws and caselaws, so they don't have
any power to just make arbitrary decisions, not even with the jury, not to mention
appeals. So to teachers and lecturers these issues matter a lot. They can become
lying robots (lying to themselves and the kids) because of such lobbyists that set
in stone curricula.
- --
~~ Best of wishes
Dr. Roy S. Schestowitz (Ph.D. Medical Biophysics), Imaging Researcher
http://Schestowitz.com | GNU/Linux administration | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
Editor @ http://techrights.org & Broadcaster @ http://bytesmedia.co.uk/
GPL-licensed 3-D Othello @ http://othellomaster.com
Non-profit search engine proposal @ http://iuron.com
Contact E-mail address (direct): s at schestowitz dot com
Contact Internet phone (SIP): sches...@ekiga.net (24/7)
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Snit
3:08 PM:
Absolutely - though they, like judges, are given a fair bit of leeway in the
details of how they present the information, what the focus on, etc.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]