The Nindows Fista XPerience
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[H]omer
debug their Slopware.
Seeing as MS are so desperate for unpaid guinea pigs, and since I want
to see first hand what all the fuss is about, I've downloaded their
Slopware DVD and installed it under VMWare. I even jumped through their
activation hoop, so I'll keep a look out for the black helicopters
circling the perimeter. I can't tell you how creepy it is having an
e-mail from Redmond's finest sitting in my inbox.
The clock is ticking folks, so start your engines and rev up for some
snail's-pace action, as we navigate the BSOD's, and flood those inboxes
with bug reports, whilst Microsoft's "developers, developers,
developers" run around screaming in fear of missing that deadline.
The initial results are not good. I've seen 4 BSODs so far, the event
viewer was a sea of red and yellow checkmarks, USB is b0rked (surprise,
surprise), and sound doesn't work:
http://www.genesis-x.nildram.co.uk/nindows-fista/
And no, "Nindows" is not a typo ... look at the screenshot.
Oh and apparently my "Windows Experience Index" is 1. Time to "refresh"
that hardware folks. No $100 OLPC PC for me, boys and girls; looks like
I'll have to re-mortgage and move to a trailer park, just to bump my
index past 1. OK, so to be fair this *is* a VMWare session, but then XP
(as shite as it is) was never *this* freakin' slow on VMWare.
I can see where Thurrot's coming from. Good grief, does MS *seriously*
expect people to pay for this steaming pile of sweaty socks? Do they
seriously expect *businesses* to cripple their hardware with this putrid
pile of bloated garbage.
Oh, but it looks soooo pretty. Yeah well so does XGL, but unlike Aero it
weighs in at only 2.5MB, and doesn't bring the system down to a crawl.
Fucking amateurs.
"Installing Nindows...
That's all the information we need right now.
Your computer will *restart several times* during installation"
"Several times" ... Jesus Christ!!!
Looks like Microsoft's efforts to "reduce the number of times a user
needs to restart the PC" has been flushed down the toilet.
Reboot several times during an installation ... how quaint.
Oh and where the fuck has "display settings" gone? It seems to have
disappeared from the control panel.
I'll be sure to include that one in my usability report to sweaty Ballmer.
Now, where do I pick up my cheque? ... oh wait ...
--
K.
http://slated.org - Slated, Rated & Blogged
This message has not been photoshopped in any way.
Fedora Core release 5 (Bordeaux) on sky, running kernel 2.6.16-1.2133_FC5
01:09:05 up 91 days, 1:25, 1 user, load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
billwg
flatfish+++ wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 01:10:49 +0100, [H]omer wrote:
>
> > Yes folks, I've decided to pull Microsoft out of the shit, and help them
> > debug their Slopware.
>
Ditto. I bought a 3 year old IBM Intellistation Z-Pro workstation with
a Wildcat 4 video card to play around with Vista betas and they were
pretty grim. Even moreso since 3DLabs wasn't interested anymore in
making drivers. But RC1 saved the day. The video is great and the
thing runs perceptibly crisper than XP. It's got kind of an Apple look
to the screen, though. Maybe there's a classic theme somewhere.
It is a little strange to have the prompts when you change a system
setting or run an installer. I wouldn't class it as obnoxious, but
it's one more click than usual.
> So what are YOU doing wrong?
He seems to have missed how BSOD is kind of dated. He probably has old
hardware and still thinks it make's him look smart to talk of such. He
seems to be ignoring the compatibility warnings too. Well Vista isn't
for everyone, certainly. It only works on the newer computers.
Sinister Midget
> Yes folks, I've decided to pull Microsoft out of the shit, and help them
> debug their Slopware.
> http://www.genesis-x.nildram.co.uk/nindows-fista/
GAH!! Good thing that mess is still pre-alpha. Imagine ordinary people
looking at that crap, knowing it surfaced from the torture chambers of
a multi-billion dollar company!
> And no, "Nindows" is not a typo ... look at the screenshot.
Nice touch. Maybe that's supposed to prove they rewrote the whole
mess.
> "Installing Nindows...
> That's all the information we need right now.
> Your computer will *restart several times* during installation"
>
> "Several times" ... Jesus Christ!!!
>
> Looks like Microsoft's efforts to "reduce the number of times a user
> needs to restart the PC" has been flushed down the toilet.
>
> Reboot several times during an installation ... how quaint.
This might not be as bad as it seems at first blush. It may reboot a
bunch of times during install and not do as much later on.
Come to think of it, this would make matters worse if the usual need
for a bi-monthly reinstall is followed.
> Oh and where the fuck has "display settings" gone? It seems to have
> disappeared from the control panel.
They like to move things. Have you looked in the Games part of the
menu? Maybe it's in the Extras section of the CD. It could be they'll
release it as a Power Toy along with all of the other things they
refuse to support, some of which actually work when you can get the
crapware underneath to behave long enough to catch a glimpse.
> I'll be sure to include that one in my usability report to sweaty Ballmer.
--
Rungbu: Innovative Microsoft peer-to-peer software.
Larry Qualig
Look at the screen-shots. He's not running it on "real" hardware. He's
running it in a virtual machine (VM) with virtualized hardware and he's
complaining that it didn't properly detect his sound card.
VMWare themselves classifies their current level of support for Vista
as being "experimental" - (From the VMWare website)
<quote>
Supported Guest Operating Systems
...
...
"Experimental support for Windows Vista "
</quote>
So he's running a beta/rc version of an OS in a virtual machine that
only has "experimental support" for the OS and he complains that it
doesn't run perfectly. "Well Duh" seems to come to mind.
7
Eh? What kind of idiot are you?
An OS can't tell the difference between virtual machine
and a real machine. If it could, there is crapola in there
that shouldn't be there.
Besides there are a hundred odd virtual appliances listed at VMWare site
and they seem to work fine.
Its not mere coincidence that they are all open source and mostly
Linux because it is superior technology.
Rex Ballard
> Yes folks, I've decided to pull Microsoft out of the shit, and help them
> debug their Slopware.
Why? It's pretty obvious you aren't that fond of the company or the
offering.
Why lend "aid and comfort to the enemy?".
> Seeing as MS are so desperate for unpaid guinea pigs, and since I want
> to see first hand what all the fuss is about, I've downloaded their
> Slopware DVD and installed it under VMWare. I even jumped through their
> activation hoop, so I'll keep a look out for the black helicopters
> circling the perimeter. I can't tell you how creepy it is having an
> e-mail from Redmond's finest sitting in my inbox.
I guess you forgot to read the fine print in the License/Nondisclosure
agreement. That part about No benchmarks, and no publication of your
opinions and observations without prior written permission from
Microsoft. Fortunately, Microsoft doesn't consider usenet postings to
be true "publication" and so long as the submissions are not edited by
the archive manager (such as google), the archive can't be "censored".
No big deal. Posting to the COLA group should keep it out of
Microsoft's radar.
> The clock is ticking folks, so start your engines and rev up for some
> snail's-pace action, as we navigate the BSOD's, and flood those inboxes
> with bug reports, whilst Microsoft's "developers, developers,
> developers" run around screaming in fear of missing that deadline.
This is looking more and more like Windows NT 3.1. There have been
numerous reports of instability, yet it looks like Microsoft is
determined to meet their 2007 delivery date "ready or not".
The challenge for Microsoft is that if they wait too long to get it
out, Linux, Unix, and Macs could completely capture the 64 bit desktop,
and dual-core 32 bit machines will be running "co-resident" Linux and
Windows. Linux could become the Xen controller and XP would become a
Xen client.
On the other hand, if they release too early, the market could go cold
completely. An unstable and/or unimpressive version of Vista that is
too similar to Windows XP that provides no significant benefits,
corporate customers might simply refuse to upgrade, refuse to purchase
new machines, and simply boycott the Windows market. OEMs would then
have to offer the more Linux-friendly XP product.
> The initial results are not good. I've seen 4 BSODs so far, the event
> viewer was a sea of red and yellow checkmarks, USB is b0rked (surprise,
> surprise), and sound doesn't work:
> http://www.genesis-x.nildram.co.uk/nindows-fista/
Of course, you did install it under VMware, and Vista is pretty nasty
toward VMWare.
Microsoft seems committed to forcing Vista directly onto the hardware.
This is a critical decision and could either give them strategic
placement, or become loathed feature which would be rejected outright
by corporate customers. It's a big gamble, and I if Microsoft's final
product is still "Virtual hostile", I'll be buying puts.
> And no, "Nindows" is not a typo ... look at the screenshot.
What I found most striking was the similiarity between this screen and
one of the SUSE screens.
> Oh and apparently my "Windows Experience Index" is 1. Time to "refresh"
> that hardware folks. No $100 OLPC PC for me, boys and girls; looks like
> I'll have to re-mortgage and move to a trailer park, just to bump my
> index past 1. OK, so to be fair this *is* a VMWare session, but then XP
> (as shite as it is) was never *this* freakin' slow on VMWare.
Beta versions are often memory pigs, because there is lots of "debug
enable-able" code that can be turned on when real issues pop up. How
much RAM did you give to the Vista VM? I've heard that 2 Gig is
reccomended.
> I can see where Thurrot's coming from. Good grief, does MS *seriously*
> expect people to pay for this steaming pile of sweaty socks? Do they
> seriously expect *businesses* to cripple their hardware with this putrid
> pile of bloated garbage.
Microsoft has been able to force their "shovelware" into corporate
sites even when they don't want it. When Windows XP was released,
corporate customers had to pay as much as three times the cost of their
previous support plan, At the time, it was October, and Microsoft
demanded that customers upgrade or "go on their own". The corporate
customers also had to accept "shipment" of licenses for each computer -
whether it was unstalled or not.
It is pretty clear now, that Microsoft wanted to close the support
contracts BEFORE letting them know that anyone who got XP, even the OEM
version, would get exactly the same kind of support that the corporate
customers got - the automated updates.
The irony is that many corporations were actually unwilling to accept
the automated updates and ended up having to filter or pre-test
upgrades, often delaying updates and security fixes that broke 3rd
party applications critical to the enterprise for such functions and
time sheets, expense reports, and travel arrangements as well as "core"
applications such as purchasing, inventory, and shipping.
Nearly 85% of Microsoft's biggest corporate customers developed
"migration plans" which included steps that have already been taken,
such as confirming that all machines purchased can be converted from
Windows to Linux in less than 1 hour, deployment of OSS software such
as FireFox and OpenOffice, and staying at earlier "OSS compatible"
versions of MS-Office such as Office 2000, Visio 2002, and Project
2000. Other measures included choosing Java-2 applications and applets
rather than VB applications and ActiveX controls.
> Oh, but it looks soooo pretty. Yeah well so does XGL, but unlike Aero it
> weighs in at only 2.5MB, and doesn't bring the system down to a crawl.
Again, some of this might be debug code, but clearly XGL is shifting
the balance in favor of Linux as the primary Operating system.
Microsoft may have to offer Xen, VMWare, and User Mode capabilities to
stay in the marketplace and displace the Windows 9x, NT, and XP systems
already deployed.
> "Installing Nindows...
> That's all the information we need right now.
> Your computer will *restart several times* during installation"
>
> "Several times" ... Jesus Christ!!!
>
> Looks like Microsoft's efforts to "reduce the number of times a user
> needs to restart the PC" has been flushed down the toilet.
Flashbacks of Windows NT 4.0 again. That puppy was really slow to get
acceptance, and even then consumers rejected it for the most part,
opting for Windows 9x instead.
> Reboot several times during an installation ... how quaint.
>
> Oh and where the fuck has "display settings" gone? It seems to have
> disappeared from the control panel.
Does right-click on desktop still work?
> I'll be sure to include that one in my usability report to sweaty Ballmer.
>
> Now, where do I pick up my cheque? ... oh wait ...
Funny. Some people that that if they climb into bed with Microsoft,
some of "Billy's Billions" will come their way. But "Billy's Billions"
came because Billy makes sure that nearly all of the money flows one
way, out of your pocket and into Billy's. If you like Billy's toy,
then pay more into Billy's Billions, and accept that that's all part of
doing business with Microsoft.
[H]omer
> Larry Qualig wrote:
>> billwg wrote:
>>> flatfish+++ wrote:
LOL! The WinNUTS are out in full force on this one ... must've touched a
nerve.
>>>> On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 01:10:49 +0100, [H]omer wrote:
>>>>> Yes folks, I've decided to pull Microsoft out of the shit, and
>>>>> help them debug their Slopware.
>>>> Works fine here.
Yeah, yeah.
>>>> So what are YOU doing wrong?
The only think I'm doing wrong, AFAICT, is expecting something from
Microsoft to actually work.
>>> He seems to have missed how BSOD is kind of dated.
You seem to have missed the screenshot of Fista *clearly* producing a
BSOD:
http://www.genesis-x.nildram.co.uk/nindows-fista/img000.jpeg
>>> He probably has old hardware
You're right ... a P4 3.6Ghz, 2GB DDR2, GF6600GT, probably is too old
to run Vista.
LOL!
>>> and still thinks it make's him look smart to talk of such.
No, it just makes you look like a fuckwit, when you don't check the
facts.
>>> He seems to be ignoring the compatibility warnings too.
No I'm not ignoring them, I'm simply making a comparison of Vista and
XP on the same hardware ... virtual or otherwise.
>>> Well Vista isn't for everyone, certainly.
Vista isn't for *anyone*, I'd say.
>>> It only works on the newer computers.
Yes, I'll try to get a PC that isn't more than 5 minutes old, next
time.
>> Look at the screen-shots. He's not running it on "real"
>> hardware. He's running it in a virtual machine (VM) with
>> virtualized hardware and he's complaining that it didn't properly
>> detect his sound card.
You just don't even bother trying to read the posts do you. I already
clearly stated that it was running on VMWare. Thing is, if that puts
Fista at such a disadvantage, then how come XP managed to detect all
the hardware no problem. I thought Fista was supposed to be *more*
advanced than XP, not less.
>> VMWare themselves classifies their current level of support for
>> Vista as being "experimental" - (From the VMWare website)
>>
>> <quote>
Yawn ... zzzzzzzzz.
>> "Well Duh" seems to come to mind.
Yeah, that's the first word that came to mind, when I saw Fista in action.
> Eh? What kind of idiot are you?
The WinNUT kind.
--
K.
http://slated.org - Slated, Rated & Blogged
This message has not been photoshopped in any way.
Fedora Core release 5 (Bordeaux) on sky, running kernel 2.6.16-1.2133_FC5
07:14:32 up 91 days, 7:31, 2 users, load average: 1.10, 1.09, 1.15
Roy Schestowitz
> [H]omer wrote:
>> Yes folks, I've decided to pull Microsoft out of the shit, and help them
>> debug their Slopware.
This thing will never ship in time. If it does, it'll remain a "steaming pile
of dirty socks". Have a look:
Microsoft wants more Vista testers
,----[ Feed Excerpt ]
| It hopes to have about 5 million testers checking out latest version
| of Windows update, as it tries to stamp out bugs.
`----
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-6115744.html
Now, tell me, how does overwhelming feedback from so many people can even be
processed? My guess is that they want to gather enough statistics to
identify errors that recur most often and deal with them in sensible
priorities. This means that the intent is never truly to polish the final
product. It's a case of damage control.
Expect some fake drama where Microsoft blames the EU for delays and ships the
product late. They line up their excuses and keeps those fingers crossed.
When the product is finally out, there will be an onslaught of lawsuits over
use of the desktop for extending the monopoly. This has been mentioned
before. There will be last-minute changes.
> Why? It's pretty obvious you aren't that fond of the company or the
> offering.
> Why lend "aid and comfort to the enemy?".
I think that good criticisms will deem credible after some first-hand
experience. That's what [H]omer delivers here. And he is not the first.
>> Seeing as MS are so desperate for unpaid guinea pigs, and since I want
>> to see first hand what all the fuss is about, I've downloaded their
>> Slopware DVD and installed it under VMWare. I even jumped through their
>> activation hoop, so I'll keep a look out for the black helicopters
>> circling the perimeter. I can't tell you how creepy it is having an
>> e-mail from Redmond's finest sitting in my inbox.
>
> I guess you forgot to read the fine print in the License/Nondisclosure
> agreement. That part about No benchmarks, and no publication of your
> opinions and observations without prior written permission from
> Microsoft. Fortunately, Microsoft doesn't consider usenet postings to
> be true "publication" and so long as the submissions are not edited by
> the archive manager (such as google), the archive can't be "censored".
>
> No big deal. Posting to the COLA group should keep it out of
> Microsoft's radar.
It does, however, make you wonder about many blogs that attest to a similar
experience, as well as various major sites (news sites as well). CNN is
among the bashers, but it doesn't present or deliver anything that's akin to
a benchmark.
>> The clock is ticking folks, so start your engines and rev up for some
>> snail's-pace action, as we navigate the BSOD's, and flood those inboxes
>> with bug reports, whilst Microsoft's "developers, developers,
>> developers" run around screaming in fear of missing that deadline.
>
> This is looking more and more like Windows NT 3.1. There have been
> numerous reports of instability, yet it looks like Microsoft is
> determined to meet their 2007 delivery date "ready or not".
As regards hardware compatibility, the best bet is to rely on the OEM
channel. But this narrows down and reduces the reach.
> The challenge for Microsoft is that if they wait too long to get it
> out, Linux, Unix, and Macs could completely capture the 64 bit desktop,
> and dual-core 32 bit machines will be running "co-resident" Linux and
> Windows. Linux could become the Xen controller and XP would become a
> Xen client.
>
> On the other hand, if they release too early, the market could go cold
> completely. An unstable and/or unimpressive version of Vista that is
> too similar to Windows XP that provides no significant benefits,
> corporate customers might simply refuse to upgrade, refuse to purchase
> new machines, and simply boycott the Windows market. OEMs would then
> have to offer the more Linux-friendly XP product.
While your paragraph seems hypothetical, it pretty much reflects on a
reality. Windows Vista is said to be "feature complete". Meanwhile, Linux
vendors are preparing to take over. The release of Vista will be a
significant catalyst.
Linux Distributor Interactive Ideas To Deliver Xandros' End-to-End Windows
Alternatives To UK
,----[ Quote ]
| "I see a bright future for Xandros in the UK. We have seen a steady growth
| in the UK market for Linux servers, and with the approach of Windows Vista,
| both users and resellers are beginning to understand the tremendous value
| and opportunity that the Linux desktop presents as well, so the timing
| couldn't be better," said Mike Trup, Interactive Ideas Managing Director.
| "While everyone is sold on Linux stability and security, a principal
| deterrent to its widespread adoption has been the perceived difficulty of
| installation and use. Even cursory hands-on experience with Xandros
| desktops and servers completely changes that perception, and when you
| factor in their outstanding Windows compatibility, it is readily
| apparent that Xandros provides the easiest transition to Linux to date.
`----
http://br.sys-con.com/read/272819.htm
Linspire Offers Cash Incentive for Pre-Installing Linux on Desktop Computers
,----[ Quote ]
| Linspire, Inc., developer of the commercial desktop Linux operating system
| of the same name and Freespire, the free community desktop Linux operating
| system, launched a revamped partner program today that pays system builders
| a percentage on all commercial Linux software and services purchased by
| users of either Linspire and Freespire pre-installed desktop and laptop
| computers using CNR (Click 'N Run) technology.
`----
http://www.tickertech.com/cgi/?a=news&ticker=a&w=&story=200609200609140600PR_NEWS_USPR_____LATH078
Among others.
>> The initial results are not good. I've seen 4 BSODs so far, the event
>> viewer was a sea of red and yellow checkmarks, USB is b0rked (surprise,
>> surprise), and sound doesn't work:
>> http://www.genesis-x.nildram.co.uk/nindows-fista/
>
> Of course, you did install it under VMware, and Vista is pretty nasty
> toward VMWare.
> Microsoft seems committed to forcing Vista directly onto the hardware.
> This is a critical decision and could either give them strategic
> placement, or become loathed feature which would be rejected outright
> by corporate customers. It's a big gamble, and I if Microsoft's final
> product is still "Virtual hostile", I'll be buying puts.
>
>> And no, "Nindows" is not a typo ... look at the screenshot.
>
> What I found most striking was the similiarity between this screen and
> one of the SUSE screens.
I suppose you are referring to SLED/SLES 10. I am not sure if Vista builds
predate the design of the SUSE logon screen though.
Also see:
http://beranger.org/index.php?article=1567&from=rss
Just seen it the other day. I suspect that Xandros and that Fujitsu
distribution have a similar login screen as well.
>> Oh and apparently my "Windows Experience Index" is 1. Time to "refresh"
>> that hardware folks. No $100 OLPC PC for me, boys and girls; looks like
>> I'll have to re-mortgage and move to a trailer park, just to bump my
>> index past 1. OK, so to be fair this *is* a VMWare session, but then XP
>> (as shite as it is) was never *this* freakin' slow on VMWare.
>
> Beta versions are often memory pigs, because there is lots of "debug
> enable-able" code that can be turned on when real issues pop up. How
> much RAM did you give to the Vista VM? I've heard that 2 Gig is
> reccomended.
I can't help but feel that Microsoft is deliberately pushing the limit or
programmers build the O/S in the least efficient way. I can doing fine with
256 MB and 512 MB of RAM. And I have eye candy turned on, as well as have
dozens of applications open. The price tag on Vista-ready machines will
be/is very high, so Linux offers will not be overlooked or ignored. To the
seller, on the other hand, Linux will seem like that cheap option that
distracts the customer from the cash cows. And that said, the majority of
people like (or can only afford) to buy cheap. So the seller risk losing
business unless they stock Linux workstations.
>> I can see where Thurrot's coming from. Good grief, does MS *seriously*
>> expect people to pay for this steaming pile of sweaty socks? Do they
>> seriously expect *businesses* to cripple their hardware with this putrid
>> pile of bloated garbage.
>
> Microsoft has been able to force their "shovelware" into corporate
> sites even when they don't want it. When Windows XP was released,
> corporate customers had to pay as much as three times the cost of their
> previous support plan, At the time, it was October, and Microsoft
> demanded that customers upgrade or "go on their own". The corporate
> customers also had to accept "shipment" of licenses for each computer -
> whether it was unstalled or not.
At the time (2001/2002), there was no alternative that was equally capable
(some may argue). The bridges between the proprietary lockins and the open
world were less mature. There were also fewer case studies to install
confidence in the customer's mind, as well as be seen as precedence. Now, on
the other hand, Microsoft must be careful with the bullying.
That must be the reason behind the joining with XenSource.
>> "Installing Nindows...
>> That's all the information we need right now.
>> Your computer will *restart several times* during installation"
>>
>> "Several times" ... Jesus Christ!!!
>>
>> Looks like Microsoft's efforts to "reduce the number of times a user
>> needs to restart the PC" has been flushed down the toilet.
At some point in time (over a year ago), Microsoft raved about system updates
that do not require a reboot. It seems like the aspiration to reduce the
number of reboots is yet another 'feature' that was dropped.
> Flashbacks of Windows NT 4.0 again. That puppy was really slow to get
> acceptance, and even then consumers rejected it for the most part,
> opting for Windows 9x instead.
>
>> Reboot several times during an installation ... how quaint.
>>
>> Oh and where the fuck has "display settings" gone? It seems to have
>> disappeared from the control panel.
>
> Does right-click on desktop still work?
That route to Diplay Settings has always been counter-intuitive.
>> I'll be sure to include that one in my usability report to sweaty Ballmer.
>>
>> Now, where do I pick up my cheque? ... oh wait ...
>
> Funny. Some people that that if they climb into bed with Microsoft,
> some of "Billy's Billions" will come their way. But "Billy's Billions"
> came because Billy makes sure that nearly all of the money flows one
> way, out of your pocket and into Billy's. If you like Billy's toy,
> then pay more into Billy's Billions, and accept that that's all part of
> doing business with Microsoft.
...Now you know how contributers to Xen probably feel. I see the same
sentiments among WordPress.org contributers (me included). WP.com and
Automattic is now a company and there is little interest in helping.
However, the wide exposure of the project always attracts some new faces.
Best wishes,
Roy
--
Roy S. Schestowitz | Windows all-in-one: Word, IE (for E-mail) & iTunes
http://Schestowitz.com | SuSE Linux | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E
7:20am up 58 days 19:32, 8 users, load average: 0.16, 0.45, 0.32
http://iuron.com - Open Source knowledge engine project
Hadron Quark
Sorry? LOL. New "clueless" award please.
Hint : maybe the "virtual machine interface" isn't fully implemented? Oh
yes : Vmware say that themselves.
7
Doh!!! What is that supposed to mean?
It seems to have been implemented as far as Linux distros are concerned.
There are some 100 virtual appliances already working listed at the web site
www.vmware.com. The fact that most of those are open source Linux virtual
appliances is saying a thing or two about how far advanced they are
compared to backward sloppy Nindows Fista clap trap that can't
work properly even in simple emulator environments.
Hadron Quark
> __/ [ Rex Ballard ] on Sunday 17 September 2006 07:05 \__
>
>> [H]omer wrote:
>>> Yes folks, I've decided to pull Microsoft out of the shit, and help them
>>> debug their Slopware.
>
>
> This thing will never ship in time. If it does, it'll remain a "steaming pile
> of dirty socks". Have a look:
>
> Microsoft wants more Vista testers
>
> ,----[ Feed Excerpt ]
> | It hopes to have about 5 million testers checking out latest version
> | of Windows update, as it tries to stamp out bugs.
> `----
>
> http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-6115744.html
>
> Now, tell me, how does overwhelming feedback from so many people can even be
> processed? My guess is that they want to gather enough statistics to
Project management Roy : you should try it on your "free web search
tool" project.
That and financial incentive of course.
> identify errors that recur most often and deal with them in sensible
> priorities. This means that the intent is never truly to polish the final
> product. It's a case of damage control.
Actually its called a ramp up to release.
>
> Expect some fake drama where Microsoft blames the EU for delays and ships the
> product late. They line up their excuses and keeps those fingers crossed.
> When the product is finally out, there will be an onslaught of lawsuits over
> use of the desktop for extending the monopoly. This has been mentioned
> before. There will be last-minute changes.
>
>
>> Why? It's pretty obvious you aren't that fond of the company or the
>> offering.
>> Why lend "aid and comfort to the enemy?".
>
>
> I think that good criticisms will deem credible after some first-hand
> experience. That's what [H]omer delivers here. And he is not the
> first.
Homer delivered a review of a beta running in a virtual machine for f***s
sake.
The rest of your article is, therefore, by default null and void.
billwg
7 wrote:
> > Hint : maybe the "virtual machine interface" isn't fully implemented? Oh
> > yes : Vmware say that themselves.
>
>
> Doh!!! What is that supposed to mean?
> It seems to have been implemented as far as Linux distros are concerned.
Well, lucky, maybe it means that VMWare folk have veen wasting all
their time farting around with linux when they should have been working
on their bread and butter OS! LOL!!!
The proof will be in the pudding, eh? My bet is that Vista will ship
at the same rate as XP and maybe even higher the instant that it is
released. Linux will still be a curiosity on the desktop and more
people will even pay extra to switch from XP to Vista than ever use
linux in the whole year. What's your bet?
Hadron Quark
Until Linux gets its act together with HW it is doomed.
I have a bog standard Fujitsu-Siemens pc bought in a major outlet with
standard components. Sound : doesnt work. HW open gl : doesnt work.
The openGL I can do without : the sound? No way. I'm still trawling
through the conflicting advice about external USB sound cards.
And yes, I know it "works for you".
Unfortunately for Linux, it will have to work for everyone for Linux to
be widely seen as a viable alternative for a home desktop which services
a multitude of users - office, multimedia, gaming.
--
ambition, n:
An ant crawling up an elephant's leg with rape on his mind.
DFS
> __/ [ Rex Ballard ] on Sunday 17 September 2006 07:05 \__
>> The challenge for Microsoft is that if they wait too long to get it
>> out, Linux, Unix, and Macs could completely capture the 64 bit
>> desktop, and dual-core 32 bit machines will be running "co-resident"
>> Linux and Windows. Linux could become the Xen controller and XP would
>> become a
>> Xen client.
I kind of doubt it.... OK, I completely and totally doubt it because it's
ridiculous.
> Windows Vista is said to be "feature complete". Meanwhile,
> Linux vendors are preparing to take over.
ROFL! Linux vendors *might* be able to take over and run hot dog stands...
at least they'll get paid for their efforts. "Mustard, relish!"
> The release of Vista will be a significant catalyst.
For many tens of millions of people to upgrade or buy new systems w/ Vista
preinstalled.
> Linspire Offers Cash Incentive for Pre-Installing Linux on Desktop
> Computers
What, no whining about coercion, OEM extortion, payoffs, anti-competitive
actions, bullying, illegal contracts...
Hypocrite Linux user.
> I can't help but feel that Microsoft is deliberately pushing the
> limit or programmers build the O/S in the least efficient way. I can
> doing fine with 256 MB and 512 MB of RAM.
You're doing fine *for Linux*.
> The price tag on Vista-ready machines will be/is very high,
Not at all. Vista-capable systems will be cheaper than ever.
> so Linux offers will not be overlooked or ignored.
Vista will further shut the door on desktop Linux. Wanna bet? C'mon, let's
have a friendly wager.
Rex said:
>> Again, some of this might be debug code, but clearly XGL is shifting
>> the balance in favor of Linux as the primary Operating system.
Your prescription must've run out.
Rex said:
>> Microsoft may have to offer Xen, VMWare, and User Mode capabilities
>> to stay in the marketplace and displace the Windows 9x, NT, and XP
>> systems already deployed.
Nothing but absurd blathering, better known as Rex's specialty.
Roy said:
> That must be the reason behind the joining with XenSource.
Yeah, that's it.
> That route to Diplay Settings has always been counter-intuitive.
Right-clicking to access the properties of the object is perfectly
intuitive. My guess is MS invented it (way back in OS/2).
billwg
Hadron Quark wrote:
>
> I have a bog standard Fujitsu-Siemens pc bought in a major outlet with
> standard components. Sound : doesnt work. HW open gl : doesnt work.
>
> The openGL I can do without : the sound? No way. I'm still trawling
> through the conflicting advice about external USB sound cards.
>
That is kind of odd, IMO. At the goading of ray, I did download an
ubuntu live CD and loaded it up on a dual P3 Intellistation. Worked
pretty nice, even the graphics, but the sound didn't work on it either.
I would think that the linuxers would hop on that like a rooster on a
june bug! Maybe it's not enough fun.
Another thing I found was that I couldn't get the ubuntu live CD to try
to install itself on the hard drive. It was an old Win2K workstation
machine that I didn't use anymore, so I thought I'd give it a whirl on
linux. It wasn't very obvious to me how to do that and I finally gave
up trying. I have the Novel SUSE desktop DVD downloaded now and I'm
going to try that instead.
billwg
flatfish+++ wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 16:41:13 +0200, Hadron Quark wrote:
>
>
> > Until Linux gets its act together with HW it is doomed.
>
>
> > I have a bog standard Fujitsu-Siemens pc bought in a major outlet with
> > standard components. Sound : doesnt work. HW open gl : doesnt work.
> >
> > The openGL I can do without : the sound? No way. I'm still trawling
> > through the conflicting advice about external USB sound cards.
> >
> > And yes, I know it "works for you".
> >
> > Unfortunately for Linux, it will have to work for everyone for Linux to
> > be widely seen as a viable alternative for a home desktop which services
> > a multitude of users - office, multimedia, gaming.
>
> with Linux support from the day it is released, like it does with Windows
> support.
> It can't be some kind of a guessing game, google search etc to figure out
> if a particular piece of hardware works with Linux and then with a
> particular distribution of Linux.
I think that the linux fans want to keep the mystery in the system
because that is what makes them different from others who have no
interest in what's under the hood.
The winner of the desktop OS battles is already Microsoft and linux
never even showed up for the tournament. The championship game was
between Windows and OS/2 and was held some 10 years ago.
7
> On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 16:41:13 +0200, Hadron Quark wrote:
>
>
>> Until Linux gets its act together with HW it is doomed.
>
> That is a true statement.
Nope. This guy is way out of date.
Through offering choice, Linux is
doing very well thanks.
Plus it has biggest supported hardware experience
out of the box on the planet compared to other OSes.
http://www.livecdlist.com http://www.distrowatch.com
If your hardware doesn't work, then its a problem
with the manufacturer - go choose a manufacturer
that offers Linux drivers. Just about everything
has good Linux supported alternative hardware equivalent.
There hasn't been a need to hold out for a micoshaft
only solution for months now.
Hadron Quark
> flatfish+++ wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 16:41:13 +0200, Hadron Quark wrote:
>>
>>
>> > Until Linux gets its act together with HW it is doomed.
>>
>> That is a true statement.
>>
>> > I have a bog standard Fujitsu-Siemens pc bought in a major outlet with
>> > standard components. Sound : doesnt work. HW open gl : doesnt work.
>> >
>> > The openGL I can do without : the sound? No way. I'm still trawling
>> > through the conflicting advice about external USB sound cards.
>> >
>> > And yes, I know it "works for you".
>> >
>> > Unfortunately for Linux, it will have to work for everyone for Linux to
>> > be widely seen as a viable alternative for a home desktop which services
>> > a multitude of users - office, multimedia, gaming.
>>
>> In order for Linux to succeed on a mass level, hardware has got to ship
>> with Linux support from the day it is released, like it does with Windows
>> support.
>> It can't be some kind of a guessing game, google search etc to figure out
>> if a particular piece of hardware works with Linux and then with a
>> particular distribution of Linux.
>
> I think that the linux fans want to keep the mystery in the system
> because that is what makes them different from others who have no
> interest in what's under the hood.
*ping* In a nutshell.
>
> The winner of the desktop OS battles is already Microsoft and linux
> never even showed up for the tournament. The championship game was
> between Windows and OS/2 and was held some 10 years ago.
>
OS/2 was a better system, but IBM was too fucking arrogant to court the
HW manufacturers. BTW, IBM PM 1.3 had tabbed interfaces long before any
shitty web browsers. The WPS would kick ass still.
billwg
Hadron Quark wrote:
>
> OS/2 was a better system, but IBM was too fucking arrogant to court the
> HW manufacturers. BTW, IBM PM 1.3 had tabbed interfaces long before any
> shitty web browsers. The WPS would kick ass still.
"Better" implies a relationship to a standard of comparison. If we,
hypothetically, create a standard that gives an 80% share for
widespread usage and 20% for low price, Windows demolishes all other
candidates. If you pick other criteria, you can bend the result any
way you want.
Windows stressed a low price (relative to OS/2 originally), lower
memory footprint, simpler operation, complete DOS application
compatibility, and enticing color to get the public attention and
corral all the users that were not concerned with priority
multi-tasking and such. It was much better for that purpose than OS/2.
Linux has an optimal use for people whose needs fit its strengths. I
don't think that is very many people, though. Windows fits a lot more
people's requirements and already has the presence of mindshare needed
to keep them informed about new developments.
The Ghost In The Machine
<sp...@uce.gov>
wrote
on Sun, 17 Sep 2006 01:10:49 +0100
<bdgut3-...@sky.matrix>:
> Yes folks, I've decided to pull Microsoft out of the shit, and help them
> debug their Slopware.
>
> Seeing as MS are so desperate for unpaid guinea pigs, and since I want
> to see first hand what all the fuss is about, I've downloaded their
> Slopware DVD and installed it under VMWare. I even jumped through their
> activation hoop, so I'll keep a look out for the black helicopters
> circling the perimeter. I can't tell you how creepy it is having an
> e-mail from Redmond's finest sitting in my inbox.
>
> The clock is ticking folks, so start your engines and rev up for some
> snail's-pace action, as we navigate the BSOD's, and flood those inboxes
> with bug reports, whilst Microsoft's "developers, developers,
> developers" run around screaming in fear of missing that deadline.
>
> The initial results are not good. I've seen 4 BSODs so far, the event
> viewer was a sea of red and yellow checkmarks, USB is b0rked (surprise,
> surprise), and sound doesn't work:
>
> http://www.genesis-x.nildram.co.uk/nindows-fista/
>
> And no, "Nindows" is not a typo ... look at the screenshot.
Specifically img002.jpeg and img005.jpeg.
I don't know how much of the 'N' is because of Windows,
and how much because of you running it in what appears to
be a variant of VmWare (that's actually more interesting
than Vista, methinks :-) ).
As for the BSOD's ... well, the general Winvocate response
would be that it's a hardware problem, which would be a
little difficult in an emulator... :-)
>
> Oh and apparently my "Windows Experience Index" is 1. Time to "refresh"
> that hardware folks. No $100 OLPC PC for me, boys and girls; looks like
> I'll have to re-mortgage and move to a trailer park, just to bump my
> index past 1. OK, so to be fair this *is* a VMWare session, but then XP
> (as shite as it is) was never *this* freakin' slow on VMWare.
>
> I can see where Thurrot's coming from. Good grief, does MS *seriously*
> expect people to pay for this steaming pile of sweaty socks?
Oh, they'll pay for it, indirectly. OEMs will be required by contract
to install this on their new systems. Presumably some of the more
egregrious bugs might be fixed by then.
(FSVO "egregious").
> Do they
> seriously expect *businesses* to cripple their hardware with this putrid
> pile of bloated garbage.
Why, yes. Isn't it smart? Isn't it beautiful?
>
> Oh, but it looks soooo pretty.
Not in 640x480x16 during startup. :-) Yeuch. OK, 1 out of 2.
And that 1 looks very shaky.
> Yeah well so does XGL, but unlike Aero it
> weighs in at only 2.5MB, and doesn't bring the system down to a crawl.
> Fucking amateurs.
>
> "Installing Nindows...
> That's all the information we need right now.
> Your computer will *restart several times* during installation"
>
> "Several times" ... Jesus Christ!!!
>
> Looks like Microsoft's efforts to "reduce the number of times a user
> needs to restart the PC" has been flushed down the toilet.
Most users don't install Vista (or any other Microsoft Windows
OS desktop). They have it installed for them. OEMs will
install it once, image it, and replicate as many times as
required.
For them, it's probably just as easy if not even simpler
to image a Linux Livedisc installation. Yet they don't.
Why? Contracting requirements, methinks.
>
> Reboot several times during an installation ... how quaint.
Indeed. Unless one needs a new kernel for some reason, and even
then, if it's only a question of a module one can build and
insmod it.
>
> Oh and where the fuck has "display settings" gone? It seems to have
> disappeared from the control panel.
>
> I'll be sure to include that one in my usability report to
> sweaty Ballmer.
>
> Now, where do I pick up my cheque? ... oh wait ...
>
I thought one had to *pay* for the beta? Certainly that was the
case during Win95.
--
#191, ewi...@earthlink.net
Windows Vista. Because it's time to refresh your hardware. Trust us.
billwg
The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
>
> For them, it's probably just as easy if not even simpler
> to image a Linux Livedisc installation. Yet they don't.
> Why? Contracting requirements, methinks.
>
could image anything equally well, but then the result is a machine
that has linux installed in lieu of Windows. Now who is there to
purchase that package? I think that the OEMs have their finger on the
consumer's pulse and they have individally and collectively decided
that they don't want to be the first and it is against the law to
conspire with one's competitors.
> >
> > Reboot several times during an installation ... how quaint.
>
> Indeed. Unless one needs a new kernel for some reason, and even
> then, if it's only a question of a module one can build and
> insmod it.
>
I think this is a straw man, ghost. My direct experience is that one
puts the DVD in the tray and says go. Sometime later it has finished.
Where it reboots, it restarts itself automatically, so you can just
start it up and go off to the driving range or other recreation while
everything completes on its own.
> >
> > Oh and where the fuck has "display settings" gone? It seems to have
> > disappeared from the control panel.
> >
> > I'll be sure to include that one in my usability report to
> > sweaty Ballmer.
> >
> > Now, where do I pick up my cheque? ... oh wait ...
> >
Display settings are where they have always been, BTW.
>
> I thought one had to *pay* for the beta? Certainly that was the
> case during Win95.
>
It's free if you are a real player, ghost. MSDN lets you download the
DVD image and MS will generally give you the latest copy when you go to
a developer conference where they are presenting.
The Ghost In The Machine
<bi...@magnoliaplantation.net>
wrote
on 18 Sep 2006 11:48:28 -0700
<1158605308.4...@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>:
>
> The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
>>
>> For them, it's probably just as easy if not even simpler
>> to image a Linux Livedisc installation. Yet they don't.
>> Why? Contracting requirements, methinks.
>>
> Surely you must think better than that, ghost! No doubt that an OEM
> could image anything equally well, but then the result is a machine
> that has linux installed in lieu of Windows. Now who is there to
> purchase that package? I think that the OEMs have their finger on the
> consumer's pulse and they have individally and collectively decided
> that they don't want to be the first and it is against the law to
> conspire with one's competitors.
That, too. Windows is the devil they know. To exchange
that for an angel they don't know -- how does one tell the
difference from a logical standpoint? -- is very difficult.
The best many can do here is point out Windows' many flaws.
But there are also Windows' many benefits -- specifically,
each and every package developed exclusively for Windows.
Linux has some work cut out for it to match that, and
it's a regenerative cycle: the more popular OS gets the
more developers, which means more applications and yet
more developers.
That said...Linux is a buzz amongst developers. Vista
apparently isn't generating any real excitement. :-)
>
>> >
>> > Reboot several times during an installation ... how quaint.
>>
>> Indeed. Unless one needs a new kernel for some reason, and even
>> then, if it's only a question of a module one can build and
>> insmod it.
>>
> I think this is a straw man, ghost.
Very. Most users buy a box and plug it in.
> My direct experience is that one
> puts the DVD in the tray and says go. Sometime later it has finished.
> Where it reboots, it restarts itself automatically, so you can just
> start it up and go off to the driving range or other recreation while
> everything completes on its own.
For Windows, yes. For Linux, one has to answer a few questions.
>
>> >
>> > Oh and where the fuck has "display settings" gone? It seems to have
>> > disappeared from the control panel.
>> >
>> > I'll be sure to include that one in my usability report to
>> > sweaty Ballmer.
>> >
>> > Now, where do I pick up my cheque? ... oh wait ...
>> >
> Display settings are where they have always been, BTW.
>>
>> I thought one had to *pay* for the beta? Certainly that was the
>> case during Win95.
>>
> It's free if you are a real player, ghost. MSDN lets you download the
> DVD image and MS will generally give you the latest copy when you go to
> a developer conference where they are presenting.
>
--
Sinister Midget
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy, [H]omer
><sp...@uce.gov>
> wrote
> on Sun, 17 Sep 2006 01:10:49 +0100
><bdgut3-...@sky.matrix>:
>> http://www.genesis-x.nildram.co.uk/nindows-fista/
>>
>> And no, "Nindows" is not a typo ... look at the screenshot.
>
> Specifically img002.jpeg and img005.jpeg.
>
> I don't know how much of the 'N' is because of Windows,
> and how much because of you running it in what appears to
> be a variant of VmWare (that's actually more interesting
> than Vista, methinks :-) ).
Actually, I think that should be "/ista" under the circumstances.
--
Microsoft: The company that made graphics files dangerous.
[H]omer
> In comp.os.linux.advocacy, [H]omer <sp...@uce.gov> wrote on Sun, 17
> Sep 2006 01:10:49 +0100 <bdgut3-...@sky.matrix>:
>> http://www.genesis-x.nildram.co.uk/nindows-fista/
>>
>> And no, "Nindows" is not a typo ... look at the screenshot.
> Specifically img002.jpeg and img005.jpeg.
>
> I don't know how much of the 'N' is because of Windows, and how much
> because of you running it in what appears to be a variant of VmWare
> (that's actually more interesting than Vista, methinks :-) ).
It appears to be because of the graphic to the left (whatever it
is). Presumably Vista is trying to rescale it to fit the smallish
screen, and at that size it simply disappears, taking part of the
surrounding area with it.
>> Oh, but it looks soooo pretty.
> Not in 640x480x16 during startup. :-) Yeuch. OK, 1 out of 2. And
> that 1 looks very shaky.
Once again, as a direct comparison with XP, the colour depth and
general appearance of the setup is not adversely affected by either
the size, nor the virtual hardware, when running XP setup. Another
step backwards.
>> Looks like Microsoft's efforts to "reduce the number of times a
>> user needs to restart the PC" has been flushed down the toilet.
> Most users don't install Vista (or any other Microsoft Windows OS
> desktop). They have it installed for them. OEMs will install it
> once, image it, and replicate as many times as required.
That may be true initially, but there are at least two very common
scenarios where users *do* install Windows from a full install disc.
1) ... OS upgrade
There's a hell of a lot of potential upgraders out there, few of which
will be prepared to buy a new system, just to get a new OS.
2) ... Wipe'N'Reinstall® repair solutions
This is often advocated as a "reasonable" repair solution, and various
help forums are filled with such advice. AFAICT this practise is
highly prevalent throughout the Windows world.
Then of course there's the enthusiasts and "home builders" market. For
example, not counting laptops, I've only ever *once* bought a prebuilt
system (my first).
>> Reboot several times during an installation ... how quaint.
> Indeed. Unless one needs a new kernel for some reason, and even
> then, if it's only a question of a module one can build and insmod
> it.
But that's a "post installation" activity, and entirely optional,
unless that particular kernel was incompatible with your hardware.
You have to wonder at the incompetence of Windows software engineers,
who design a system that cannot release it's own resources, to enable
upgrading without a reboot.
>> Now, where do I pick up my cheque? ... oh wait ...
> I thought one had to *pay* for the beta? Certainly that was the
> case during Win95.
Like I said, MS are "desperate" for guinea pigs. They have an "open"
beta programme. You simply sign up and download.
However, unlike in the FOSS community, this is not a case of getting
something for Free in return for your voluntary contribution. Vista is
*not* Free, and my contribution will only serve to fill Microsoft's
pockets.
--
K.
http://slated.org - Slated, Rated & Blogged
Beware the Penguin:
http://www.victorialodging.com/video/Never_Trust_A_Penguin.mpg
Fedora Core release 5 (Bordeaux) on sky, running kernel 2.6.16-1.2133_FC5
18:04:25 up 93 days, 18:21, 3 users, load average: 0.30, 0.12, 0.04